August 7, 2018

"Rather than the deep substantive discussion that the moment demands, the treatment of Kavanaugh’s nomination has been dominated by aggrieved demands for civility..."

"... decency, and the earnest pinkie swears of the 1 percent. But the person who drove a stake in the heart of whatever remained of civility and decency is the same person who nominated Kavanaugh. This is Trump’s M.O.: to offer neither civility nor decency to anyone who isn’t wealthy and powerful, and then to demand it for himself and those with whom he chooses to associate. By these lights, tearing apart families seeking asylum is civil. Refusing service to Sarah Huckabee Sanders is not. Trashing the media and people of color is civil. Speaking ill of Judge Kavanaugh is not. So let’s be done with the civility of convenience, which we’ve learned only flows in a single direction and doesn’t apply if you are poor or brown or suffering.... Ask any law clerk at the Supreme Court to name the warmest, kindest justice on the bench and they will tell you Clarence Thomas is that guy. Every time. That’s not nothing, but it isn’t anything close to everything. Being lovely to people around you isn’t a proxy for judicial ideology and methodology. Let’s please respect Kavanaugh enough to stop talking about his mad carpooling skills... The state of Brett Kavanaugh’s niceness is not a constitutional question."

Writes Dahlia Lithwick in "No More Mr. Nice Justice/Brett Kavanaugh’s kindness and courtesy has no bearing on whether he should be confirmed to the Supreme Court" (Slate).

This gets my "civility bullshit" tag, and I agree with her about "the civility of convenience, which we’ve learned only flows in a single direction." But I laugh at her effort to put a one-way spin on that one-way flow. The larger idea of civility bullshit is that all sides use it when it serves their interest and — in the normal political discourse of the United States — it's only used to get your opponents to quiet down. It's not just used to shush the "poor or brown or suffering." It's used whenever it's useful, and no one is for civility as a neutral principle. It's bullshit. So, much as I agree with the first half of Lithwick's sentence — "So let’s be done with the civility of convenience, which we’ve learned only flows in a single direction" — I call bullshit on the second half — "and doesn’t apply if you are poor or brown or suffering."

279 comments:

1 – 200 of 279   Newer›   Newest»
Kevin said...

This is the Platonic Ideal of the Civility Bullshit tag. It's what all the other Civility Bullshit-tagged posts want to be when they grow up.

Quayle said...

"...no one is for civility as a neutral principle."

Did you overlook some evidence? Are you really saying nobody is for a civil society?

Michael K said...

The hysteria shows how good this nomination is.

They have nothing.

Kirk Parker said...

I deny that "deep substantive discussion" is called for here. The nominee is eminently qualified! Let's have a vote, if there are enough senators in favor of calling for the question, or let him languish (or withdraw or be withdrawn) if there aren't.

But no, there's no great important thing to discuss surrounding this.

Quayle said...

BTW, does Dahlia even know she cherry picked? Normally I would say of course. But given how people are acting these days, I'm not so sure any more. I really am starting to believe we're each operating in good faith in alternate society realities. But this is enabled because each sides' "will to win" is shoving aside all other normal intellectual and emotional checks restraints.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Leftists - get back to shutting down free speech for Hillary. She's very proud of your efforts.

Mike Sylwester said...

Has Dahlia Lithwick ever written anything about Rep. Bennie Thompson calling Justice Clarence Thomas an "Uncle Tom"?

sparrow said...

Civility has its value entirely apart from content. We have a shared interest in rational discourse because it's far better, most of the time, to talk it out than fight. It's the left that has abandoned reasoned discussion and principled liberals like Pinker have discussed this at length. If we can't agree on a civil frame to work within then we have no means of peaceful reconciliation. Of course civility is dishonestly trotted out for convenience but that doesn't mean it without value.

Basil Duke said...

Looking forward to the leftwing mouth froth that Ginsburg's croaking will produce - and Uncle Donnie gets his third Supreme Court pick. It'll be epic.

rehajm said...

Helps the lefties make it to Wednesday is all...

Mike Sylwester said...

Is it civil for Senate Democrats to slow-walk all of President Trump's nominations?

That would be a good subject for a deep substantive discussion.

rhhardin said...

This is Trump’s M.O.: to offer neither civility nor decency to anyone who isn’t wealthy and powerful, and then to demand it for himself and those with whom he chooses to associate.

Trump isn't angry or uncivil or one-sided. It's an insult contest, and he positively invites insults back.

An insult contest is the domestication of anger, like jokes are.

In an era of that's not funny, it's domestication that falls and anger that rises. You can notice this in the that's not funny crowd.

Domestication displaces.

sinz52 said...

All calls for civility are bogus unless they are directed at *your own side* as well.

Otherwise, calls for civility are just a ploy to shame your opponents into shutting up.

Want civility, conservatives? Tell President Trump to knock off the insults and personal attacks and start acting like a President instead of like a tavern brawler.

Want civility, liberals? Tell *your fellow liberals* to stop calling everyone to the political right of Al Gore a racist, a "goosestepper," a moron, etc.

IOW, start by cleaning up YOUR OWN ACT and set a good example for America.

narciso said...



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/supreme_court_dispatches/2016/03/in_oral_arguments_for_the_texas_abortion_case_the_three_female_justices.html

Hagar said...

Off topic:
‘These people are not like any Americans,’ the prosecutor told Ellis.

‘These people are oligarchs and that means they control a segment of the economy based on the governments allowing them to do that.’

Andres said: ‘These are not really political contributions.

‘They are self-serving payments with respect to what oligarchs do.’


Isn't this also a description of the insurance companies' relationship to the government re "Obamacare"?

Iirc, Obama was conspicuously absent from almost the entire proceedings, and the statute bill really was written by insurance company lobbyist lawyers in a backroom of Harry Reid's Senate offices.

Mike Sylwester said...

Thank you, Harry Reid, for ending the Senate filibuster for all judge nominations below the Supreme Court.

Thank you, Chuck Schumacher, for filibustering the nomination of Neil Gorsuch.

As a result, the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh now needs just 51 votes in the Senate.

narciso said...

that was one example from the druid priestess,

https://www.catholicleague.org/sotomayor’s-catholicism-2/

gspencer said...

Kavanaugh will be confirmed, making a Firm Five. Ruth Buzzy, who delusionally thinks she’s in charge of her life span, may suffer a snip of the Abhorred Shears of Atropos, with DJT naming her replacement (yes, the Senate will remain GOP). Breyer, longing to spend his final days eating Breyers® Ice Cream with his grandkids and realizing that he will now be facing a Solid Six, responds to the loss of the Buzz, by crying, “What’s the use; I can no longer effectively legislate from the bench on behalf of the Democrat Party,” and resigns. The Don goes into action, and the Solid Six becomes the Solid Seven.

Then, in late-2022 or mid-2023, Thomas & Alito, each of whom will by then be in his mid-70s, come to DJT (yes, there will be a second term), announce their retirements, and ask the Don to replace them with people in the mold of Scalia so long as each replacement is in his/her mid-40s. In time Roberts does the same, though he’ll be coming to President Mike Pence. The Solid Seven remains solid for decades.

Mike Sylwester said...

Dahlia Lithwick sure doesn't like it when people complain about the Democrats' incivility.

sparrow said...

Actually I do enjoy Trump's aggressive style, but it will not always get results. I've noticed Trump can be very positive and complimentary when he's in negotiations. Is that Trump's form of civility BS? Maybe I think it's that and a bit of wish-casting; it seems to work.

TrespassersW said...

sinz52 said...
...set a good example for America.

That worked so well for Bush.

narciso said...

so these somersaults is how moloch has been able to exact the 55-58 million, sacrifices since 1973

Kirk Parker said...

sinz52,

You're implying that a tavern brawler can't become President? How un- American...

Comanche Voter said...

I read the excerpt from Dalia Lithwick and realize that her head is in a very alternate reality. I'm reminded of the George Carlin to Bette Midler and Shelley Long in an old movie (Ruthless People?), "Man the 60's must have been good to you!"

Dalia has either been dropping a very strong tab of LSD or has smoked a whole baleful of righteous ganja. Whatever---her head is not right.

rhhardin said...

Insult contests are civility.

It's suppression of insult contests that gives you crazed anger.

tim in vermont said...

This is Trump’s M.O.: to offer neither civility nor decency to anyone who isn’t wealthy and powerful,

I don’t know, there are an awful lot of people that the “new economy” of shipping jobs overseas left behind who think that Trump is the only one who offers them decency and civility.

Mike Sylwester said...

... the treatment of Kavanaugh’s nomination has been dominated by aggrieved demands for civility, decency, and the earnest pinkie swears of the 1 percent ...

I don't get the part about "pinkie swears".

I simplify clause as follows:

... the treatment of Kavanaugh’s nomination has been dominated by demands for ... the earnest pinkie swears of the 1 percent ...

Who is demanding earnest pinkie swears of the 1 percent?

What's an example of this phenomenon?

Big Mike said...

I agree with Quayle’s first comment. I think there was a time when two sides could agree — civilly — to disagree. Dems always were worse about it than Republicans (“you are eeeeevillll”, not to mention union thugs) but they ended even that during Bush’s administration, and got despicable during Obama’s.

And so they got Trump.

Michael K said...

Want civility, conservatives? Tell President Trump to knock off the insults and personal attacks and start acting like a President instead of like a tavern brawler.

Would you like Jim Acosta's number ? I have it here somewhere.

William said...

What person of conscience wasn't outraged by Trump's attack on LeBron James. Poor, black, long suffering. Truly a Lincolnesque figure. Why doesn't Trump pick on people his own size?

Michael K said...

Civility ended when Killer Ted defenestrated Bork.

Biden presided.

Fernandinande said...

In Era of Trump's America, bushy, tuberous, herbaceous perennial plants native to Mexico on high contrast photographic film absorb or draw off by capillary action and writes articles.

Big Mike said...

I agree with Quayle’s first comment. I think there was a time when two sides could agree — civilly — to disagree. Dems always were worse about it than Republicans (“you are eeeeevillll”, not to mention union thugs) but they ended even that during Bush’s administration, and got despicable during Obama’s.

And so they got Trump.

Chuck said...

It's not directly on point with Dahlia Lithwick, but I really hope that there is a moment in the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing when Democrats press Kavanaugh to say that he would not support presidential immunity if a Special Counsel found clear and convincing evidence to indict a sitting president.

Democrats will want to press Kavanaugh on that. To make Kavanaugh look bad. Of course, to make Trump look suspect. They probably think that Kavanaugh will dodge, or else will supply an answer that makes it look like he will favor a sort of presidential immunity for Trump.

What I hope is that Kavanaugh commits himself plainly to saying that a president is not immune from criminal process under the right circumstances. Give the Dems exactly what they want, on that particular question. And then, I hope and expect, go on to a bipartisan majority confirmation vote in his favor.

I think it would be a good healing moment for the country if all of the conservative justices including Justice Gorsuch and a new Justice Kavanaugh voted with a unanimous Court if and when Trump gets a grand jury subpoena or an indictment.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

gspencer, I really like your take on the future. I hope you're correct.

tim in vermont said...

I didn’t think that the “wealthy and powerful” could scare up even one electoral vote on their own. Who are these wealthy and powerful deplorable losers?

Mike Sylwester said...

Dahlia Lithwick sure doesn't like it when people write that Brett Kavanaugh is a nice person.

Ralph L said...

I've noticed Trump can be very positive and complimentary when he's in negotiations.
It makes the other side look bad if they aren't, and both sides must control their emotions.
Who cares about the fakery if the deal gets done?

Drago said...

Sinz: "Want civility, conservatives? Tell President Trump to knock off the insults and personal attacks and start acting like a President instead of like a tavern brawler."

Lefties like you have called every republican candidate/President "literally Hitler" sine 1948.

Every single one.

Just because you lefties pretend history began this morning doesnt mean the non-insane non-left has to pretend that never happened.

tim in vermont said...

I think it would be a good healing moment for the country if all of the conservative justices including Justice Gorsuch and a new Justice Kavanaugh voted with a unanimous Court if and when Trump gets a grand jury subpoena or an indictment.
- Chuck

“Tell me again about the rabbits George.” - Lennie Of Mice and Men

Levi Starks said...

Desperate times call for desperate civility

rhhardin said...

Hitler didn't do insult contests.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Civilty Bullshit is true in certain circumstances. Blaming Palin for "targeting" vulnerable Democrats districts is civility bullshit. If anyone is saying she can't attack Kavanaugh because he is too nice is civility bullshit.

But the leftists have morphed to physical violence. That is not OK.

Yesterday they attacked a black female at breakfast because she reposted the NYT's psycho racist's tweets but changed the race from white to black. That is easy beyond civility bullshit territory.

We, as a society, must condemn these violent actors. That is not civility bullshit.

narciso said...

You mean the fellow who siphoning 8 million from the ohio school system and calling it charity, that guy,

Fernandinande said...

By these lights, tearing apart families seeking asylum

It's a shame when families seeking asylum are torn apart by something as simple as wild dogs. Then wrapped in tin-foil and saved for later.

Rick said...

Let’s please respect Kavanaugh enough to stop talking about his mad carpooling skills... The state of Brett Kavanaugh’s niceness is not a constitutional question."

Summary:

Left wing figures out their effort to paint all non-leftists as evil and hateful backfires, immediately asks everyone to ignore their delusional rantings.

Drago said...

#StrongDemDefender Chuck: "What I hope is that Kavanaugh commits himself plainly to saying that a president is not immune from criminal process under the right
circumstances. Give the Dems exactly what they want, on that particular question. And then, I hope and expect, go on to a bipartisan majority confirmation vote in his favor."

LOL

Your dem/lefty operational allies have no intention on providing any real bi-partisan approval.

A couple of the most vulnerable of your dem allies will cynically vote for Kavanaugh to try and save their skin so they can get re-elected and support the full Lefty/dem/LLR agenda for the next 6 years.

narciso said...

by comparison, Obama and ayers program, his only management experience only involved public funds,

President-Mom-Jeans said...

I hope this retarded lefty twat gets terminal cancer of the uterus, how is that for civility?

Rand Paul said he is going to vote to confirm Kavanaugh, and it seems like Cocaine Mitch is going to once again show some backbone. I don't care if they have to wheel McCain's brain dead husk onto the floor and have a weekend at Bernie's style confirmation vote, they need to ram this through.

Then when Ginsberg finally fucks off for her dirt nap, do it again. No quarter for the left.

Mike Sylwester said...

Chuck at 9:12 AM
... I really hope that there is a moment in the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing when Democrats press Kavanaugh to say that he would not support presidential immunity if a Special Counsel found clear and convincing evidence to indict a sitting president.

Since 1973, it has been the opinion of the US Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel that a President cannot be indicted on a criminal charge.

https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/olc/sitting_president.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mL8j94PZsw

Drago said...

Rick: "Left wing figures out their effort to paint all non-leftists as evil and hateful backfires, immediately asks everyone to ignore their delusional rantings. "

Yep.

And thats usually where LLR Chuck pops in to run interference for his lefty allies.

The fantastic news is that no one is fooled any longer. Which is a very, very good development.

Full exposure of the lefts/LLR's real beliefs and intent.

We owe so much to Trump for winning and exposing these lefty and "Rosey O'Donnell republican" charlatans.

chickelit said...

In simplified terms, Lithwick believes in her heart that racism is only felt by the brown and black. Her callous disregard for Clarence Thomas makes that painfully clear.

Drago said...

MS: "ince 1973, it has been the opinion of the US Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel that a President cannot be indicted on a criminal charge."

LLR Chuck knows that perfectly well, but the Dems/lefty narrative/tactics purpose and intent is to alter that reality in the publics mind...which is why LLR Chuck is once again 100% in alignment with the far left narrative.

As usual.

chickelit said...

Blogger Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...”Leftists - get back to shutting down free speech for Hillary. She's very proud of your efforts.”

Going forward, what to watch for is whether other Hillary critics are singled out and targeted by Facebook et al.

Mike Sylwester said...

What does Dahlia Lithwick think of the attempted legal lynching of Clarence Thomas?

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Here's some civility bullshit for you:

"Facebook has reportedly blocked a California congressional candidate's campaign from using a video as an ad on the social media platform because they deemed it "shocking, disrespectful or sensational."

The Christian Post reports that Facebook blocked 33-year-old Republican Elizabeth Heng's video which shows "her America immigrant parents, who survived brutalities by the Khmer Rouge communists during the Cambodian Civil War."

https://www.dailywire.com/news/34127/election-meddling-facebook-blocks-republican-asian-ryan-saavedra

I can see why leftists would hate the ad. It is very disrespectful to the Khmer Rouge, and shocking to the sensibilities of leftists. It also doesn't help that Heng is a beautiful, accomplished Asian-American Republican. Susan Jeoung is the true spokeswoman for Asian millenial females, not this race traitor.

Mike Sylwester said...

When Clarence Thomas was nominated, there was a lot of talk about a pubic hair being on a Coke can.

Rather than that, though, the moment seemed to demand a deep substantive discussion of Thomas's jurisprudence.

What does Dahlia Lithwick think about that moment being dominated instead by talk about a pubic hair on a Coke can?

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Robert Bork could not be reached for comment.

Balfegor said...

Re: Rick:

Left wing figures out their effort to paint all non-leftists as evil and hateful backfires, immediately asks everyone to ignore their delusional rantings.

I think you have it right here -- there's been an effort to smear Kavanaugh in personal terms (e.g. that he ran up massive credit card debt to . . go watch sports? Also, he apparently likes beer?) Personal decency is responsive to personal attacks, and the personal attacks have accordingly failed miserably.

Mike Sylwester said...

... the treatment of Kavanaugh’s nomination has been dominated by aggrieved demands for civility, decency, and the earnest pinkie swears of the 1 percent ...

How come no editor asked Dahlia Lithwick to explain what she means by "earnest pinkie swears of the 1 percent"?

rhhardin said...

It's a shame Veep didn't do a Supreme Court nomination. Maybe it's still running.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

For clarification, my last comment RE: Uterine cancer applies both to Lithwick and Chuck.

Jeff said...

What I hope is that Kavanaugh commits himself plainly to saying that a president is not immune from criminal process under the right circumstances.

Of course he is. But those right circumstances must include the circumstance that he has been impeached by the House and removed by the Senate. Otherwise any two-bit prosecutor who knows what a ham sandwich is can tie up the chief executive with an endless blizzard of motions, subpoenas, discovery requests, etc... Kind of like the Mueller investigation.

The only cure for this is to stick to the Constitution, which gives the President, and only the President, executive power. Unless he wants to investigate and prosecute himself, no one else can do it. Of course he can delegate to subordinates, but he can also order them to stop or fire them. If the Congress doesn't like it, they can remove him, and they don't really even need a reason. IANAL, but I don't think any court has jurisdiction to review the merits of a Senate conviction.

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

What about Vince Foster?

What about Judge Kavanaugh's role in the coverup of his murder?

If it was murder rather than suicide as some claimed and claim.

John Henry

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

Forgot the link

https://www.infowars.com/roger-stone-scotus-candidate-kavanaugh-involved-in-vince-foster-death-cover-up/

Not a fan of Alex but he could use a little linky love today.

John Henry

robother said...

If only we could get back to the deep substantive discussion that the moment demands, best exemplified by Cory Booker's declaration that a vote for Kavanaugh is "complicit in evil."

Mike Sylwester said...

If Brett Kavanaugh is asked, he should say publicly that a Special Counsel cannot indict a US President.

A Special Counsel can only report to Congress, which has the only jurisdiction.

traditionalguy said...

Trump has literally driven her crazy. Good job, Donald. All the Socialitstas have left is screams, fog horn blasts and police whistles in your ear to prevent ALL SPEECH by Americans. The Globalist Techies just shut down the internet truth sites not approved by them.
Trump has them in a panic now that their end is near.

exhelodrvr1 said...

"to offer neither civility nor decency to anyone who isn’t wealthy and powerful"

Obviously has never listened to any of his speeches, or paid attention to his policies.

Mike Sylwester said...

robother at 9:40 AM
Cory Booker's declaration that a vote for Kavanaugh is "complicit in evil."

Has Dahlia Lithwick written anything about Booker's statement?

Owen said...

Chuck at 9:12: “What I hope is that Kavanaugh commits himself plainly to saying that a president is not immune from criminal process under the right circumstances.” If Kavanaugh were to do such an obviously stupid and suicidal thing, I too would demand he withdraw from consideration. You are on some other plane of wish-casting there.

I think “civility” is a real thing and therefore it admits, even invites, its abuse in the form which Prof A calls, rightly IMHO, bullshit. (Anyone who has not yet read “On Bullshit,” should go do so now. I’ll wait).

Real civility is a fragile thing because it is offered without preconditions. It means exposing oneself —a little, not foolishly— to ine’s Counterparty, by offering a small compliment (not too obviously false: that would look like mockery) or ignoring some grossness or outright criminality. The way an FDR might meet cordially with a Stalin, as if either were a gentleman, because the moment required them to rise above resentments and recriminations. Dalia Lithwick, being an angry child playing the usual one-dimensional game, seems unable to grasp this essential point.

Sebastian said...

"Rather than the deep substantive discussion that the moment demands"

The moment demands a vote. No Dem senator is capable of a "substantive" discussion with Kavanaugh.

"the treatment of Kavanaugh’s nomination has been dominated by aggrieved demands for civility..."

I missed those. Whose aggrieved demands? I do recall reading some libs saying Judge K is eminently qualified and should be confirmed. I guess progs could see belaboring the obvious as a form of treason to the cause.

"This is Trump’s M.O.: to offer neither civility nor decency to anyone who isn’t wealthy and powerful"

Huh? Did she miss the Republican primaries? Did she miss Trump calling out the GOPe and European leaders?

"By these lights, tearing apart families seeking asylum is civil."

Well, it is abiding by the actual law as in place before a judge changed it, and it is an effort to protect our borders against invasion.

"Being lovely to people around you isn’t a proxy for judicial ideology and methodology."

And as we know, progs judge character, and friendship, by political position, or "judicial ideology"--the very term a revealing tell.

"This gets my "civility bullshit" tag, and I agree with her about "the civility of convenience, which we’ve learned only flows in a single direction." But I laugh at her effort to put a one-way spin on that one-way flow. The larger idea of civility bullshit is that all sides use it when it serves their interest"

But let's measure and see who uses it more.

"no one is for civility as a neutral principle"

This is partly false. Many conservatives are for civility as a neutral principle. It is what we would like to conserve. But, Mitt and W aside, we know we can't have it. The civil war has started. It started long ago.

If I had to pick a date, it would be the day Ted K borked Bork.

Jeff said...

Ask any law clerk at the Supreme Court to name the warmest, kindest justice on the bench and they will tell you Clarence Thomas is that guy. Every time. That’s not nothing, but it isn’t anything close to everything. Being lovely to people around you isn’t a proxy for judicial ideology and methodology.

The left likes to pretend that any and all opposition to their political program is motivated by evil intent. The opponents who aren't so motivated have been tricked by those who are. So if Kavanaugh, like Thomas, is actually a decent human being, he must be someone's stupid puppet. Not an easy case to make when reading Kavanaugh's body of work.

narciso said...

much like seth rich, nothing to see here, you can get mugged at 2 am yet nothing is taken.

Michael K said...

Blogger Chuck said...
It's not directly on point with Dahlia Lithwick, but I really hope that there is a moment in the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing when Democrats press Kavanaugh to say that he would not support presidential immunity if a Special Counsel found clear and convincing evidence to indict a sitting president.


This stuff is what makes some of us wonder if you really are a lawyer, Chuck.

narciso said...

he's saul goodman from breaking bad,

hombre said...

There are no facts to the minions of the left, only moving the destructive, progressive agenda forward. They are lunatics or worse.

Open borders, jihadi immigration, higher taxes, bigger deficits, higher unemployment, minimum wage laws, abortion on demand, tranny locker rooms, involuntary servitude for Christians, banning plastic straws .... Lunatics!!

mccullough said...

Lithwick is still upset that the Supreme Court won’t have four Jewish Justices. She took the Garland block very hard.

But the Irish need a seat on the Court. Irish-Americans vastly outnumber Jewish Americans who are over-represented in the Court. Brennan and Kennedy only served together for a few years while the Micks still had enough political clout. Trump is just appeasing the Irish as Obama did the Puerto Ricans with Sotomayor and the Jews with Kagan and Garland. The Italians should have fought a lot harder to get Scalia’s replacement but they lost out with Gorsuch.

Kavanaugh is Catholic so Trump maintains the balance of 6 Catholics and 3 Jews. He has, however, disturbed the balance of Yale Law School graduates and Harvard Law School graduates.

MadisonMan said...

If you have the law, pound the law. If you have the facts, pound the facts. Otherwise, pound the table. It seems to me that that is what Lithwick is doing, pounding the table.

Anonymous said...

"Civility bullshit" is just veneer-level bullshit, covering a deeper kind of bullshit and deeper problems.

First, Lithwick's defining flaw as a thinker isn't "civility bullshit" - civility bullshit is exactly what you'd expect from her. It's stupidity bullshit. Lithwick's writing has always been third-rate. She's a mediocrity, and being a partisan hack is what mediocre pundits *do*. It's not as if in a nobler civic order she'd be a better observer and a better analyst.

More fundamentally, civility can't exist outside a shared civic culture, where there is an underlying, mostly tacit understanding and agreement about ends if not means. About what is done and what is not done, about what the civic order is *for*. We don't have that, and without that, "civility" is a meaningless concept. Invoking it is bullshit, sure, but a more fundamental kind of bullshit than is acknowledged here.

bleh said...

My problem with people dismissing civility is that the proposed alternative is just screeching and name calling. She doesn’t actually want substantive discussions. She doesn’t want tough-but-fair questioning. She wants Democrats on camera tarring Kavanaugh as a woman-hating racist xenophobe or whatever.

Matt Sablan said...

So. Uh.

Have we all forgotten Bork?

He got a word in the dictionary all about what happened to him.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Lithwick claims Trump is civil only to the rich and powerful...does she mean people like James Comey, Diane Feinstein, Chuck U Shumer, Jeb Bush, Angela Merkel and the rest of the EU muckety mucks?

Nonapod said...

The left in this country seems bound and determined to have an uncivil war with the right even despite (because of?) things going demonstrably very well. They're using the tired old tactic of accusing their enemy of doing what they themselves are in fact doing (being "uncivil" in this case). It's predictable and depressing. My only hope is that most voters are able to see these lies for what they are.

Matt Sablan said...

"Is it civil for Senate Democrats to slow-walk all of President Trump's nominations?"

-- That's just politics.

Ray - SoCal said...

The incivility shown to Candace Owens would be headline news if she was of the left. Megaphone in a restaurant? and white antifafa hounding a black lady out of a restaurant? Pouring water over her white companions head?

What Sarah Jeoung did to a female Chinese blogger is true civility bs. Saying she gets Korean civilization, it’s close enough to Chinese, so Vice lying and not keeping their promises is ok?

Amazing double standard.

Drago said...

"The moment demands a vote. No Dem senator is capable of a "substantive" discussion with Kavanaugh"

Be very careful.

That is precisely the sort of comment that triggers a LLR Chuck pro-dem/lefty meltdown.

Balfegor said...

Re: Ray:

What Sarah Jeoung did to a female Chinese blogger is true civility bs.

I had never heard about that incident before. That's not "civility bs" -- that was just common-or-garden bullshit.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Ray- I am going to buy the Philadelphia Inquirer today to see if that librul rag even covered the Candace Owens/Charlie Kirk story. Generally I refuse to give that paper my hard earned money.

tim in vermont said...

Chuck’s best meltdown so far remains the time he was asked to explain how conversations recorded by the government ended up in the New York Times without “wiretapping.” “I don’t care what you know nothings think!” it began.

hombre said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paddy O said...

I've never liked Trump as a person, and that goes way back to the 80s. But I don't remember him publicly insulting people until after he was the candidate and he was getting hit right and left. Maybe he was like that before too (no doubt he was), but I'd be curious to see if he has changed his public approach. Second, does he have pre-emptive attacks or does he respond angry to people who have already insulted him.

Which is to say that it seems to me that Trump matches the tone shown to him.

It's a bit like two kids in the backseat. The press is waving their hands in front of Trump's face "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!"

hombre said...

There is nothing to discuss about Kavanaugh, civilly or uncivilly. He is eminently qualified. If McConnell has the votes, he should shove the nomination down the Democrats’ throats. Harry Reid would have done so.

buwaya said...

This is not an argument.
There are no opinions.
There aren't even any genuine feelings, not in the professional media.
They are paid to advance the interests of their owners, thats it.

This is a cold civil war and on that side, at least, they have an organized propaganda system as part of their order of battle. Any fact, argument, spin, or frame they use is simply ammunition.

On your (or that of most of you here) side the propaganda system is small, weak, and disorganized. And though most of it is independent, it is all poorly funded. Many parts that are funded, to a degree, are actually on the other side, and have been for years. They have an organized, first world military, you are a mass of rebel guerilla factions.

The accurate frame here is of organized conflict, not of discussion.

Its difficult to get many people to accept this, as it goes against a lifetime of assumptions, of education, of messaging from the distant predecessors of the modern media system. It takes mental effort and discomfort to break out. But that old world view is false, obsolete, things have changed.

BarrySanders20 said...

What Sarah Jeoung did to a female Chinese blogger is true civility bs.

How's this for a stereotype backed by centuries of truth: Asians are some of the most racist, nationalist, and ethnic purists on the planet. The Japanese still hardly allow any non Japanese to live in the country. They hate the Koreans. Vice versa.They all hate the Chinese. Minority groups like the Hmong in SE Asia are oppressed and driven out.

Jeong is simply doing what comes naturally to her.

Big Mike said...

@AJ Lynch, let us know, but I am not holding my breath.

hombre said...

If McConnell doesn’t have the votes to shove the nomination through, he should be exposing the holdouts to the ridicule and electoral risks they deserve.

He should also make it clear to McCain that if he doesn’t resign his legacy will be a liberal Supreme Court.

Howard said...

This hoopla is partisans playing dressup for each other. Kavanaugh will be confirmed, Trump's not getting impeached, Hillary won't be locked up.

buwaya said...

To assume that one is reading "Lithwick" is the first error.
There is no "Dahlia Lithwick", with opinions and a point of view.

You are not reading the original or even second hand ideas of Dahlia Lithwick.
This is not personal, this is professional.
We are not observing persons but a system.

Imagine it rather as a war, and she a soldier. She is, aong with her fellows, shooting at you. It doesnt matter at all who she is, its not personal, she is at best a semi-visible shadow behind muzzle flashes. And you dont rebut bullets.

stevew said...

If our host is arguing by way of the "civility bullshit" tag that the calls for civility are most often disingenuous and deployed as a weapon, then I agree. I have worked in an environment that is characterized by a direct and blunt manner of speech, often including cuss words (all of Carlin's 7). People know not to take it personally, unless they are supposed to. Stuff gets done. Civility is a poor and inefficient way to communicate.

-sw

Francisco D said...

"What I hope is that Kavanaugh commits himself plainly to saying that a president is not immune from criminal process under the right circumstances."

Chuckles,

It is comments like these that make me wonder if you ever went to college much less practiced as a lawyer.

Since when does a SCOTUS nominee commit to a specific vote on a hypothetical case?

Big Mike said...

@hombre, do you think McCain cares?

Paco Wové said...

t.i.v.:

My personal favorite was the Incident of the Pecan Pie.

Darrell said...

Lithwick is a good name for a Slate writer.

Michael K said...

They have an organized, first world military, you are a mass of rebel guerilla factions.

Sort of like the North Vietnamese?

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

@hombre, do you think McCain cares?

Of course McCain cares if his legacy is a liberal Supreme Court. It would be like he was giving a thumbs down from the grave. Don't give him any ideas

hombre said...

Buwaya @10:39: Cynical, but, I suspect, correct.

Mike Sylwester said...

Chuck at 9:12 AM
I really hope that there is a moment in the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing when Democrats press Kavanaugh to say that he would not support presidential immunity if a Special Counsel found clear and convincing evidence to indict a sitting president. ... What I hope is that Kavanaugh commits himself plainly to saying that a president is not immune from criminal process under the right circumstances.

The current circumstances are that the Special Counsel is Robert "The FBI Whitewasher" Mueller, who is disgracing:

* himself

* the institution of Special Counsel

* the FBI

* the United States of America.

Mueller is an evil man who should have refused the appointment because he is blatantly conflicted in this case by his history as FBI Director and by his personal friendship with "Crazy Comey the Leaker".

Mueller is an evil man who is trying to undo the 2016 Presidential election.

As long as the Special Counsel is Mueller, an evil man, the USA is very far from being in "the right circumstances" to say that a Special Counsel should be able to indict the US President.

-----

The issue is not whether the US President is immune.

Rather, the issue is that the US Congress has the jurisdiction.

hombre said...

Big Mike said...
“@hombre, do you think McCain cares?”

He’s an egomaniac. It’s probable he cares. There would be a very ugly way of painting this particular sellout.

chuck said...

Who's making demands for civility? I don't recall much along those lines and expected less. Edward Kennedy donated his heart of the Democratic Party and it's cold, ugly, and corrupted.

Owen said...

byway @ 10:19: "...The accurate frame here is of organized conflict, not of discussion."

You're starting to scare me.

We really need to raise our game here.

Owen said...

"byway" = buwaya. Apologies!

robother said...

Chuck reminds me. Civility Bullshit is closely related to Bipartisan Bullshit. Both are one-way streets, requiring Republican/Right sacrifice, and never operate as any limit to Democrat/Left speech or action. The complete inability of McCain, Chuck and the Never-Trumpers to see this reality, and their rage at Trump's refusal to play this loser role, is their defining trait.

Henry said...

But the person who drove a stake in the heart of whatever remained of civility and decency is ...

...Donald Trump, vampire slayer.

That's what the metaphor says.

Darrell said...

It's not directly on point with Dahlia Lithwick, but I really hope that there is a moment in the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing when Republicans press Kavanaugh to say that he would not support the Democrat Senator's plan to take control over the internet and to tattoo the majority opinion on those Senators' heads.

rightguy said...

Its funny how I knew everything Lithwick would say. Being a partisan democrat writer makes you totally predictable and boring. Most mainstream news outlets are intellectual ghettos.

Two-eyed Jack said...

Upstream, someone made the point that this started with Bork. I think from a broader perspective this goes back farther.

1954 Brown v Board of Education -- The Supreme Court decided unanimously to effectively amend the Constitution to "resolve" the most contentious issue that has run through American History. Not a single Justice wrote to defend the existing arrangements in American society. The realization that the SCOTUS could act as a quasi-Constitutional Convention leads to a sequence of profound changes in American government, ostensibly based on the 14th Amendment.

1973 Roe v Wade -- A 7-2 decision resolving another major issue through an effective amendment of the Constitution. Read the dissents: the only resistance is that the ruling should not have been so broad. There was an elite consensus that abortion should be available, just a disagreement on the terms.

1987 Robert Bork -- Bork made what I, personally, regarded as a strong case that the way to amend the Constitution was to actually amend it, not just declare it changed. He was attacked in an "uncivil" manner and voted down. I was quite liberal in those days (subscribed to the Nation, but read Calvin Trillin, not the poetry), but I was shocked.

Post-Bork there has been steady work of "originalism," putting a halt to and partially reversing the post-Brown consensus that amendments to the Constitution were not really necessary. This has meant that elite opinion is sometimes stymied when seeking to impose preferred solutions.

I think that the near universal approval of the Brown decision in our cultural world reinforces a view of heroic SC Justices cutting Gordian Knots. The problem is that the decisions are often hard to defend against originalist counterarguments. Now that we are on the verge of a Borkian majority, hostility is the only arrow left in the quiver.

walter said...

With said mad carpool skills, he could facilitate some SCOTUS Car Karaoke segments.

Drago said...

robother: "Both are one-way streets, requiring Republican/Right sacrifice, and never operate as any limit to Democrat/Left speech or action. The complete inability of McCain, Chuck and the Never-Trumpers to see this reality, and their rage at Trump's refusal to play this loser role, is their defining trait."

In reality, the required republican sacrifice and capitulation to the left is THE defining reason why LLR Chuck consistently advocates for that.

Freder Frederson said...

1954 Brown v Board of Education -- The Supreme Court decided unanimously to effectively amend the Constitution to "resolve" the most contentious issue that has run through American History.

And here I thought all along that Brown merely overturned the horrible Plessy v. Ferguson decision. Add to that that "separate but equal" was a demonstrable lie.

Drago said...

Field Marshall Freder: "Add to that that "separate but equal" was a demonstrable lie."

Just about everything the left/dems and their LLR allies tell us is a lie.

Obviously.

cubanbob said...

Chuck at 9:12 AM
... I really hope that there is a moment in the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing when Democrats press Kavanaugh to say that he would not support presidential immunity if a Special Counsel found clear and convincing evidence to indict a former president." And former cabinet officers and officers of the United States. Fixed that for you.

buwaya said...

In the end "Brown" did very little good.

Everything considered, taking into account all that has happened in 70 years of obsessive and lavish educational reform initiatives of every sort and on every scale, plus foreign experience, the only conclusion is that it has all been a massive failure. If anything, the collapse of social mobility put a seal on the whole mess.

The cost was destructive in that the obsession to achieve results, as "Brown" implicitly demanded, led to the modern disaster. "Brown" and its follow-ons ate American education.

FullMoon said...

Civility Challenge:
Put trump bumper sticker on your car, see what happens.

Two-eyed Jack said...

Freder, as I understand it, the NAACP strategy was to insist upon the full equality part of Plessy, knowing that the biggest issue in education was underfunding of black schools. The ourt held that "separate eeducational facilities are inherently unequal," based upon psychological impacts of segregation. This has the deficiency that it is probably not true. Brown was restricted to educational settings, while Pless applied to transportation.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Big Mike:

Today's print edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer did not have one word about the incident in downtown Philadelphia re Candace Owens & Charlie Kirk which occurred on Monday morning.

I was not shocked and it will not get another $2.00 from me anytime soon.

Drago said...

Major dems and the lefty controlled social media giants are already shutting down libertarian sites, standard fare republican commercials/groups, etc.

LLR Chuck's pals on the left are calling the NRA a terrorist org, so count on them being deplatformed shortly, and that will all be followed by the complete deplatforming of the republican party itself at some point.

Which is the inevitable outcome when the left and LLR Chuck's "brilliant" dem media people already call all republicans bigots, racists and Nazi's.

So, here we go...

Drago said...

Perhaps someone should ask Kavanaugh his thoughts on modern day Trust-bustin'...

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
buwaya said...

It is so bad now that there has been a dearth of serious attempts at educational reform for over a decade. Closing the "gap" is no longer an option, there are no longer any ideas or hypothesis on how to achieve this. Data and analysis, started so hopefully by Coleman in the 60's, has been abandoned. Even the conservatives have given up on their own theories, as their experiments also failed.

You will hear lip-service at the sepulchres of various long-dead tropes, like funding, or early childhood interventions, or cultural relevance, but no one who knows anything will claim any expectations for these things. No one will admit defeat, publicly, but the truth is well understood. Educational "reformers" are either depressed or entirely cynical.

The "hottest" lines on the progressive side are, alternately, that high-performers should shut up and stop achieving (under several still-vicious euphemisms). And of discounting the value of ability and achievement. It is approaching an asymptote of perversity.

Matt Sablan said...

If Infowars goes down, I don't see how Antifa sites stay up. Infowars is a loon saying loony things; Antifa are some jerks telling other people to punch people.

Martin said...

"But the person who drove a stake in the heart of whatever remained of civility and decency is the same person who nominated Kavanaugh."

No, it was Sens. Kennedy, Leahy and Biden and the victim was Robert Bork, 30+ years ago. Everybody since then, Carville, Atwater, Lanny Davis, Podesta, the whole Democratic machine that slimed Bush-43, McCain, then Romney, Obama and his henchman Holder, and now Trump on one side and virtually teh whole rotten establishment on the other have just been refining what the Democrats did to Bork long ago.

They hate Trump because he returns fire. No Republican has done so since Atwater died.

Matt Sablan said...

How can Infowars go down for being a conspiracy theory, but 9-11 Truthers and We Didn't Land on the Moon-ers stay up?

rhhardin said...

There's no deep discussion without wordplay.

Matt Sablan said...

If Infowars goes down, do we have to ban people who believe things like Bush ordered the levies to be destroyed? What about people who think OJ was framed?

Yancey Ward said...

Who has been issuing calls for civility in the nomination of Kavanaugh from the Right? I have seen calls for the matter to be treated seriously and in line with, for example, the confirmation processes of Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan. In what way does Kavanaugh deserve to be treated differently than even Roberts, Alito, and Gorsuch were? No one I have seen is suggesting that Trump be treated with civility? Lithwick's target is wrong, and surely intentionally. Ms. Althouse needs a civility bullshit bullshit tag.

Etienne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matt Sablan said...

"Being lovely to people around you isn’t a proxy for judicial ideology and methodology."

-- Sometimes not even having a judicial background can be a proxy for judicial ideology and methodology though! Sometimes just being a wise whatever is a good proxy too! Notice how when Romney and Kavanaugh are Boy Scouts its: "Character means nothing!" and when Moore and Trump are assholes its: "Character is everything!"

It is like the club that gets picked is whatever is convenient.

Matt Sablan said...

"By these lights, tearing apart families seeking asylum is civil."

-- Well, it was acceptable. Until Trump became president. Then CHILDREN IN CAGES became an issue.

I wish that Democrats had tried to fix the problem under Obama; he probably had enough goodwill to fix it in an actual bi-partisan fashion. I may not have liked the solution, but it would've hopefully prevented the child abuse of 2014-2016.

Chuck said...

Francisco D said...
"What I hope is that Kavanaugh commits himself plainly to saying that a president is not immune from criminal process under the right circumstances."

Chuckles,

It is comments like these that make me wonder if you ever went to college much less practiced as a lawyer.

Since when does a SCOTUS nominee commit to a specific vote on a hypothetical case?


Oh, almost never. I'm not making a prediction; I'm telling you what I'd like to see.

And after the stories in the press about how was so furious at Gorsuch over his "demoralizing and disheartening" remarks that he almost pulled the nomination, I'd love to see what would happen if Kavanaugh made some strong remarks about investigations of presidents that simultaneously (a) gave Dems less of a basis to vote against him and (b) gave Trump more reason to bounce off the walls of his White House bedroom at night.

Francisco D said...

"The court held that "separate eeducational facilities are inherently unequal," based upon psychological impacts of segregation."

The American Psychological Association filed a friend of the court brief stating that research indicated this to be true. The research was bogus.

It is probably heresy to criticize Brown V. Board of Education, but it seemed to be partly based on the liberal premise that Black kids would do better if there were White kids in the class. Has history shown that to be true?

Michael K said...


Blogger Matthew Sablan said...
If Infowars goes down, do we have to ban people who believe things like Bush ordered the levies to be destroyed? What about people who think OJ was framed?


Over at "West Hunter" we have been having a discussion about Japanese war strategy, if any. The Infowars thing is a Pearl Harbor for the tech giants. Alex Jones needs to file a lawsuit based on monopoly practices. They gave him the lever to move the world by coming down on him in concert.

Now, if he is smart enough to get a good antitrust lawyer to take his case, he can kill them.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck: "Oh, almost never. I'm not making a prediction; I'm telling you what I'd like to see"

We don't need for you to tell us what you'd want to see.

We all have the ability to read Maddow transcripts for ourselves which always lays it all out where you are concerned.

Michael K said...

gave Trump more reason to bounce off the walls of his White House bedroom at night.

Chuck are you masturbating as you type this?

Asking for a friend.

Drago said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Drago said...

#StrongDem/CNNDefender Chuck: "And after the stories in the press about how was so furious at Gorsuch over his "demoralizing and disheartening" remarks that he almost pulled the nomination...."

Fake news.

Never happened.

LOL

Again!

wwww said...

"It's used whenever it's useful, and no one is for civility as a neutral principle. It's bullshit."

Is civility always b*llsh*t?

Does Althouse mean pundits or politicians pontificating in the news? Or are we talking about how people conduct themselves at with their friends, family and acquaintances?

These are 2 different types of interactions. In the second, civility is necessary and valuable in order to maintain relationships.


There is a separate question about decorum and elected officials.

The Head-Of-State is not separate from the political leader of a single partisan party in the USA. This is a dilemma the United Kingdom does not face. The President of the USA is expected to play two separate roles. Consequently, the American populace will have an opinion about the Head-Of-State deviating from expected behaviour.

Elected officials are answerable to the citizens, who will decide what behaviour they will or will not accept. Each citizen decides for herself or himself what level of civility or decorum they will expect from their elected public servants.

Drago said...

wwww: "The Head-Of-State is not separate from the political leader of a single partisan party in the USA. This is a dilemma the United Kingdom does not face."

LOL

Henry said...

For the record, Bork praised Brown v. Board. In his confirmation hearings he said,

Times come, of course, when even a venerable precedent can and should be overruled. The primary example of a proper overruling isBrown v. Board of Education, the case which outlawed racial segregation accomplished by government action. Brown overturned therule of separate but equal laid down 58 years before in Plessy v.Ferguson. Yet Brown, delivered with the authority of a unanimousCourt, was clearly correct and represents perhaps the greatest moral achievement of our constitutional law.

His reasoning is laid out in The Tempting of America:

By 1954, when Brown came up for decision, it had been apparent for some time that segregation rarely if ever produced equality. Quite aside from any question of psychology, the physical facilities provided for blacks were not as good as those provided for whites. That had been demonstrated in a long series of cases . . . The Court's realistic choice, therefore, was either to abandon the quest for equality by allowing segregation or to forbid segregation in order to achieve equality. There was no third choice. Either choice would violate one aspect of the original understanding, but there was no possibility of avoiding that. Since equality and segregation were mutually inconsistent, though the ratifiers did not understand that, both could not be honored. When that is seen, it is obvious the Court must choose equality and prohibit state-imposed segregation. The purpose that brought the fourteenth amendment into being was equality before the law, and equality, not separation, was written into the law.

Francisco D said...

"And after the stories in the press about ..."

Give me a break.

BJM said...

We're way past bullshit...going after Kavanaugh’s wife's email introduces a new level of incivility in the process. What next their children's homework?

Owen said...

buwaya @ 11:50: "..."Brown" and its follow-ons ate American education." Your subsequent post (at 12:03) is even more pointed. We are so utterly screwed. My own awakening began (I guess, many) years ago but really crystallized when I read "Mismatch." What it did was articulate the absurd social engineering that the universities were doing, but much more (to me) importantly, it showed how, psychologically and sociologically, this false selection was hurting the very people it purported to help. The only beneficiaries were the virtue-signaling elites who, at great fiscal and moral expense, were constructing a petting zoo. Its occupants were the bewildered, the humiliated and furious, and the game-players.

And, as you say, it has all come crashing down.

wwww said...


Drago,

The Queen is not associated with a political party, enabling the Head-of-State to remain above any political fray.

In the United States, the Head-of-State is also the Commander-In-Chief and the head of a single political party. Mixing those duties can be tricky. He must represent his political party and the citizens of all of the Republic.

Not a problem faced when the Head-of-State is separated from other functions.

Drago said...

BJM: "We're way past bullshit...going after Kavanaugh’s wife's email introduces a new level of incivility in the process."

Don't hold your breath waiting for LLR Chuck to criticize his beloved dems and the attack on Kavanaugh's wife and moronically attempting to tie Kavanaugh to #MeToo accusations against others.

The next time LLR Chuck deviates from Dick Durbin-cuckholser status will be the first.

Drago said...

wwww: "Drago, The Queen is not associated with a political party, enabling the Head-of-State to remain above any political fray."

Duh.

But the Queen is not the head of government so the comparison is even more completely useless than most of your other missives.

Michael K said...

Not a problem faced when the Head-of-State is separated from other functions.

Not a problem when the losing party does not go insane.

Darrell said...

Just overheard at the mall--

Little girl: Mommy? Why is Chuck a fuckhead?
Mommy: I don't know, Honey. Some people just are.

wwww said...


Drago,

Are you saying you do not think the Queen is the Head of State?

Is this a joke?

Darrell said...

Now Chuck knows where to get his Chloroform if he can not resist his titty-twisting urges.

Balfegor said...

Re: Henry:

For the record, Bork praised Brown v. Board.

Brown v. Board has a lot of unpersuasive nonsense in it, but the core rule of decision there is really just the Constitutional guarantee of "equal protection of the laws" (extended slightly to cover equal access to state-run facilities). At that point, the burden is really on proponents of "separate but equal" to establish that equal access to state-run facilities doesn't have to mean the same facilities. "Separate but equal" isn't inherently ridiculous (compare, e.g. separate male and female bathrooms or even schools), but it's facially inconsistent with a guarantee of equal access to public facilities.

All that said, the persuasive force of the opinion is seriously undermined in the current period by flourishes like this:

Segregation of white and colored children in public schools has a detrimental effect upon the colored children. The impact is greater when it has the sanction of the law, for the policy of separating the races is usually interpreted as denoting the inferiority of the negro group. A sense of inferiority affects the motivation of a child to learn. Segregation with the sanction of law, therefore, has a tendency to [retard] the educational and mental development of negro children and to deprive them of some of the benefits they would receive in a racial[ly] integrated school system.

Nowadays, of course, progressive opinion is moving back in favour of segregation. See, for example, this set of demands from Princeton students, including:

Perpetuation of double standards regarding the establishment of affinity living spaces. While the University allows for students to live together based on shared artistic (e.g. Edwards Collective ) or sustainability (e.g. Pink House) interests, it has declined to allow living spaces based on shared race or ethnicity

In other words, they're pissed off that Princeton doesn't facilitate racially segregated dorms. Similarly, until very recently, an elite NYC private school was segregating children by race. And that's all kinds of dubiously-replicable social science that supposedly undergirds the new left-wing mania for racial segregation, e.g. stereotype threat.

The justices could have made a straight textual argument and perhaps bolstered it with a philosophic argument about the impossibility of perfect equality across different school facilities (or whatever), and had done with it. Trying to layer in rubbishy psychological research to bolster their argument was a mistake.

Two-eyed Jack said...

Henry, thanks for pointing out Bork's defense of Brown. I don't think anyone who rejected Brown could be confirmed to any bench in America. Thus, the goal must be to defend Brown, even if the underlying "scientific" findings are now understood to be false. The 14th Amendment was clearly not understood to demand integrated schools at the time of its passage, the amendment text did not change, but one day in 1954, once Vinson had been replaced by Warren, the SCOTUS declared unanimously that something had changed. I am not arguing in favor of segregation, but noting that the view that that amendment was some sort of bomb with an 86-year fuse, bound to go off, is absurd. Once the bomb was set off, there was no point in trying to go back, so we tend to congratulate ourselves on our agreement with those who set it off. Part of my point was that Roe did not achieve the same ends.

wwww said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...

Nowadays, of course, progressive opinion is moving back in favour of segregation.

Yes and it is hilarious. Dartmouth now has dorms for every pressure group.

Michael K said...

The Queen is not associated with a political party, enabling the Head-of-State to remain above any political fray.

In 1940, the King favored Halifax and they very nearly took the road to disaster. Of course Edward VIII would have been worse.

Drago said...

Wwwe: "Drago, are you saying you do not think the Queen is the Head of State?

Is this a joke?"

No, I am not saying that.

You can tell I am not saying by noticing that I never said that or implied it.

Which is always a useful marker of what someone is trying to say.

I hope this explanation proves helpful to you in the future. Hopefully a future where you will pay more attention to what is actually said when analyzing what was said.

buwaya said...

"but it seemed to be partly based on the liberal premise that Black kids would do better if there were White kids in the class. Has history shown that to be true?"

Coleman's research in the 60's, with what was till this day massive data sets and institutional support, quickly eliminated the funding/facilities question as irrelevant.
In other words, it was well known that funding was (largely, within the usual range in the United States) irrelevant, and that's been known for 50 years.

Coleman and his organization turned to "peer effects", that is exactly that of black children doing better in predominantly white schools due to the nature of their classmates - and not because their classmates attract more funding or better treatment, being white, as many have tried to twist it, but through what amounts to cultural osmosis. Coleman's then very liberal hypotheses of the 60's is now unmentionable btw. Coleman was by the 70's-80's pretty disgusted by the misuse and (deliberate) misunderstanding of his peer effects results. Coleman was a scientist and an honorable man.

There has been a great deal of research since, as small peer effects have been consistently found. But the emphasis is on "small", as in marginal, and one needs a critical mass of "white" peers, in the order of 60-80% "white", IIRC. This was largely impractical to arrange at the time and is effectively impossible now, nearly anywhere. The last drill-down sorts of studies I recall had it that a small proportion of black youth (something like 5-10%) benefit significantly in "White" schools, and that most peer effects results that Coleman and others saw were the result of self selection by black families, semi-or entirely deliberately seeking such schools for their kids. The rest show no such benefit.

wwww said...

Drago: What do you mean by your below statement:

"But the Queen is not the head of government"


Please be clear about what you mean by the above statement. Is is not clear to me that you understand Queen is the Head of State of the United Kingdom, or that you are clear on her powers.

My statement underlined the contrast and difference between the USA, a Republic with a President who is also the Head-of-State versus the system in the United Kingdom?

Drago said...

wwww: "Drago: What do you mean by your below statement:

"But the Queen is not the head of government"

Please be clear about what you mean by the above statement."

LOL

I meant the Queen is not the head of government.

I hope that helps.

buwaya said...

Educational reform at this point is considerably less about virtue signalling.

It is a combination of an article of faith of the hegemonic intellectual system, that is, it is heretical to question it, as well as being the justification for a great institutional infrastructure, from which a great number of people make a living. This is paid for through government budgets at every level as well as being supported massively by charitable foundations. It is a very large part of the Liberal-progressive "industrial" complex, that uses it to employ and reward their political personnel.

It is no accident that the Annenberg educational reform operations in Chicago were founded by Bill Ayers and employed Barak Obama as a director. That this operation achieved nothing was not unusual or surprising.

Reforming "reform" will mean breaking a lot of rice bowls.

wwww said...



Drago,

Yes, I hear you on that. We're on the same page here. But so what??

Nothing about what you said speaks to my point: in the United Kingdom the Head-Of-State is separated from the head of government. That allows her to be completely above the political fray.

The United States President contends with multiple roles.

If we are on the same page, why are you arguing about things you do not even disagree with?

If there is a point of substantive difference you have with my comment: why don't you clearly state it? I don't think you disagree with my point at all.

Chuck said...

Drago said...
#StrongDem/CNNDefender Chuck: "And after the stories in the press about how was so furious at Gorsuch over his "demoralizing and disheartening" remarks that he almost pulled the nomination...."

Fake news.

Never happened.

LOL

Again!


What do you mean, "Never happened"? Gorsuch testified in his confirmation hearing and used the words "disheartening" and "demoralizing" precisely as he had been quoted previously, when Trump claimed that Gorsuch had been mischaracterized...

It's on video.

Chuck said...

For Drago,
RE: Trump's tweet, making the bogus claim that Senator Blumenthal "misrepresent[ed]" then-Judge Gorsuch.

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/02/trumps-baffling-tweet-on-gorsuch/

Darrell said...

Factcheck.org

Right.

Chuck makes it easy for Drago.

wwww said...


On civility:

There's another role for civility.

Many people find it very boring and/or unpleasant to read personal insults. You may be a particularly aggressive person that enjoys getting into fights. You may be someone who enjoys causing pain. Or you may see this as a rage-video-game and your insults are a way to relieve stress. But, for people reading it -- it's boring and unpleasant.

Trying to sort past the personal insults to see if there is a wider substantive point: It's so boring.

That's why personal insults kills the threads. It's not about the substance of the post. It's boring. It's also quite disturbing to the extent it's about hurting another individual. Some gawk at the car crash and the gratuitous sadism and psychopathy, but most will leave.

Drago said...

Darrell: "Factcheck.org

Right.

Chuck makes it easy for Drago"

Yep.

Leftist cuckholsters like Chuck always do.

In their defense, they can't help themselves.

Drago said...

wwww: "Drago,

Yes, I hear you on that. We're on the same page here. But so what??"

I don't know.

You keep asking questions about obvious things.

Here's an idea: stop.

LOL

wwww said...

Drago,

why did you respond to my original point with a gratuitous insult if you agreed with me.

I'm trying to figure out your point, aside from your personal insults.

meanwhile we're clogging up the thread.

How's this:

If you have nothing substantive to say in response to a comment of mine, scroll on by. Just scroll on by. This is a waste of time for both of us, it's boring, and we both have more interesting things to do.

Ralph L said...

At one point, liberals were arguing that including minority students always improved the education of white students. I don't know if they still do, or just Diversity!

Darrell said...

wwww--
In the end, this will be the highlight of your life.
Document it.

Drago said...

wwww: "Drago, why did you respond to my original point with a gratuitous insult if you agreed with me."

I didn't agree with your original point. I don't think any comparisons between heads of state of the US and GB is relevant.

I'm sorry this confuses you.

I'm also sorry that you consider my pointing out these obvious things as personal insults. You should work on that.

Drago said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Drago said...

wwww: "If you have nothing substantive to say in response to a comment of mine, scroll on by. Just scroll on by."

I found your comparison ludicrous.

So I made that clear.

And then you went off on a weird tangent.

I'm not sure how I am responsible for you doing that. But then again, you are on the left so blaming someone else for your own actions probably comes very naturally to you.

buwaya said...

"At one point, liberals were arguing that including minority students always improved the education of white students. "

That was one theory that was dropped quite a while ago.

wwww said...


Darrell,

I see you are taking a break from your usual targets.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED???


Why is this interesting to you? Why is this fun? are you trying to hurt people? or is the goal something else? What do you get out of personal insults?

Why are you amused and entertained?

Why aren't you bored by it?

I am curious about abnormal psychology.

But, you scare me. I would be worried to meet you in person. If you enjoy hurting people, I wonder if you have latent impulses to kill someone. I wonder if you are a serial killer.

Darrell said...

wwww said...
I am curious about abnormal psychology.


You could look in a mirror. . .

wwww said...

Drago,


I pointed out a factual difference between the operation of the United States Republic versus a Parliamentary system.

Why you have a problem with a factual statement, I have no idea.

I was trying to figure out if you had something of substance to say about it, which might have been interesting to discuss. In addition, I was trying to clarify if you understood the differences between the systems.

wwww said...

Darrell,

are ya still having fun?

Sersly, why aren't you bored?

Drago said...

wwww: "Why you have a problem with a factual statement, I have no idea."

There you go again!

LOL

Too funny.

Drago said...

wwww: "But, you scare me."

What's the problem? Not enough MS13 members in the nation to protect you from those terrible conservatives?

Chuck said...

Darrell said...
Factcheck.org

Right.

Chuck makes it easy for Drago.


What did I get wrong, in my position regarding the history of words involving Trump, Blumenthal and then-Judge Gorsuch? I supplied the video.

What did Blumenthal get wrong? He's on the video as well.

What did Factcheck.org get wrong in that one column on the Trump tweet regarding the Gorsuch-Blumenthal exchange?


Drago said...

LLR Chuck is hilarious.

Drago said...

Chuck has a clear preference for Blumenthal and Durbin (which is saying something since he so passionately defends all the other lefties/dems too).

I wonder why that is.

wwww said...


ok, got other business to take care of, but this has been interesting & quite strange from a psychological perspective.

I enjoyed the original post and considering the use-values of civility in personal and political interactions.

The personal stuff is weird. I find the personal insults on this blog odd. Mostly boring, but I do wonder about they psychology of people who do it. I've seen some research that suggests sociopathy or, worse, psychopathy. I have wondered if that's true, observing the many personal fights on this blog.

wwww said...

What's the problem? Not enough MS13 members in the nation to protect you from those terrible conservatives?



What? MS13 is big in Commonwealth nations? What makes you think I don't vote Conservative Party?

Drago said...

wwww: "ok, got other business to take care of, but this has been interesting & quite strange from a psychological perspective."

Truer than you realize apparently.

Drago said...

wwww: "What makes you think I don't vote Conservative Party?"

LOL

Two-eyed Jack said...

I tried to make the point that the long arc of SCOTUS history is bending toward originalism, rather than the liberal notion of Justice, and this is what is driving the loss of "civility." If you read Breyer's dissent in Glossip v Gross (and I would encourage you to do so) you will see what Lithwick must see slipping away. In Breyer's (and RBG(concurring)'s)world there is no constitutional death penalty, because any constitutional process is too slow and capricious to be constitutional. Thus the constitution amends itself. I don't see Kavanaugh buying this argument. So what is left for the left?

(BTW I have no legal training, outside of interested reading, so my comments are not in any sense authoritative.)

Drago said...

wwww: " I've seen some research that suggests sociopathy or, worse, psychopathy."

Well, if you've seen it, what else does anyone need?

wwww said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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