"... and not just over us in this park. That if the police are going to run wild let them run wild all over the city of Chicago and not over us in this park. That if we are going to be disrupted, and violated, let this whole stinking city be disrupted and violated, let this whole military machine which is aimed at us... around the city, don't get trapped in some kind of large organized march which can be surrounded. Begin to find your way out of here. I'll see you in the streets."
50 years ago today, Tom Hayden exhorted the crowd.
For context:
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146 comments:
But this didn't qualify as demagoguery, apparently. Only caring about girls killed by illegals counts as demagoguery
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.”
Tom ended up a kept man in Hollywood living off the Fonda name. Jerry went to Wall Street.
These guys were phonies from the start.
Can the Dems promise to do this again in 2020?
The White Panthers
"I was one of the authors of the Port Huron Statement. The original Port Huron Statement. Not the compromised second draft." - The Dude
SDS promised for months before the convention that it would fight and kill cops.
I lived at that time in Champaign, IL and spent time in Chicago. I met the SDSers at the Red Herring Coffee House on the campus of the University of Illinois. That's where they prospected and propagandized, in a Universalist church.
SDS was mostly a bunch of rich Jewish kids from NYC and suburban Chicago with their testosterone flaming out of control.
The cops read the posters about fighting and killing cops that SDS posted everywhere, and acted accordingly.
My generation. Arrogant, entitled little shits. An entire cohort of David Hoggs.
Thanks for helping to elect, Nixon -- you leftwing morons:)
If we wanna talk about Russian collusion, when it mattered, half these nitwits were unwitting dupes for the Soviets, while they were invading Czechoslovakia and later Afghanistan, and oppressing their own citizenry.
So, despite these morons, we were very fortunate to win the Cold War, and liberate millions from the Communists.
In that context, trysts with Stormy Daniels and firing Comey don't mean a whole lot. That the DNC and John "Password" Podesta got hacked, doesn't much impress me either.
It kinda makes me laugh.
If we wanna talk about Russian collusion, when it mattered, half these nitwits were unwitting dupes for the Soviets, while they were invading Czechoslovakia and later Afghanistan, and oppressing their own citizenry.
They were witting dupes for the Soviets.
"RIOT!"
Vile evil murderous humans. And Ayers was celebrated taught at Northwestern and U of I I think. U of I I think denied him the title of emeritus. Ohhh how awful.
Doehrn was worse. Roger L. Simon once blogged about her. There’s a movie based on her.
The Boston Brahmin was a part of the wider group.
The whole purpose was to incite the police to violence which would further their agenda.
If we wanna talk about Russian collusion, when it mattered, half these nitwits were unwitting dupes for the Soviets
Brennan was probably in the crowd. Wearing a Che shirt.
"They were witting dupes for the Soviets."
Some indeed were. A handful were probably paid agents, too.
But it became difficult to prove. The Soviets got smart. Recognizing that their own guiding hand, if disclosed, would discredit the movements, they sat back and allowed these radicals to chart their own course -- which, surprise, surprise, coincided with Soviet aims.
This is why history always started 15 minutes ago for progressives.
They have always been violent murderous shitheads.
@Althouse, I guess in 1968 you were too young to be one of the hippie chicks in Grant Park.
Crack,
That was really good. What year is that song (LA Riots period?)
The beginning of the end of civilized democratic America.
"They were witting dupes for the Soviets."
But enough about John Brennan.
Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
I just heard Howard Stern interview Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin. I don’t know how recent the interview is. Fonda said she just fell in love with Hayden all over again rereading his writings and speeches for a memorial on the anniversary of his death. She said, paraphrase, “He was so smart and strategic.” Then Stern, quite sycophantic, (but a tremendous interviewer regardless) told Fonda, paraphrase, “I don’t have many heroes. But you’re one of them. To me you’re righty up there with Martin Luther King.”
To adapt Wordsworth, ...Tom Wolfe! thou shouldst be living at this hour...
....right up there...not ...righty up there,,,,
TH went on to become respectable politically. Others had their careers destroyed for saying much less, but from the opposite side.
Not pacifist, not anti-war -- just anti-America. Rioting while marching under the Viet Cong flag.
The Crack Emcee said...
"RIOT!"
White Riot
"A riot of my own."
Black man gotta lot a problems
But they don't mind throwing a brick
White people go to school
Where they teach you how to be thick
How did the band Chicago (then the Chicago Transit Authority) go from this and the song "The Whole World's Watching" to just three short years later "Saturday in the Park".
(No wonder Terry Kath shot himself.)
As a 10 year old the 68 Dem convention was my 1st experience staying up late to watch a political/electoral event. My thoughts at the time
"What is happening!!??"
Chicago 1968 was a moment of clarity for America: people realized that the left really does want to destroy us, and they recoiled. Including Humphrey.
Of course, the inherent violence of the left hasn't changed. It has been their MO since 1789. The question now is whether the critical anti-leftist mass of 1968 still exists when Antifa and BLM and "democratic socialists" will try to force the contradictions in a similar way.
Mayor Daly. There was a guy who wasn't afraid to thunk some skulls.
That's how Hubert Humphrey got defeated by Richard Nixon in the 1968 Presidential election.
That's how Hubert Humphrey got defeated by Richard Nixon in the 1968 Presidential election.
Hubert was a Fool among Knaves.
That's how Hubert Humphrey got defeated by Richard Nixon in the 1968 Presidential election.
Hubert was a Fool among Knaves
_________________________________________
That's the general problem with the Democrat party. Even the modest, moderate sane guys like old Hubert), will follow the lead of the crazies. They pose no resistance. The Left runs the show, and they want stuff. They want to smash "inequality." They want to smash "male patriarchy."
The Left is crazy, their women are crazy, but they are very dangerous to the structures and traditions of this flawed, but great country.
How did the band Chicago (then the Chicago Transit Authority) go from this and the song "The Whole World's Watching" to just three short years later "Saturday in the Park".
They got over themselves?
And the libtards are still blaming their electoral defeats in 68 and 72 on the "southern strategy" lie.
The GOP didn't HAVE to court southern voters with racist dog-whistles. The Democrats embraced their most radical elements and went soft on communism and even had idiots like Hayden glorifying it.
Meanwhile, it was southern homes who bore a disproportionate share of U.S. casualties in the fight against communism, as they always have. It was southern families who had deep military traditions in their families, more than in the liberal Northeast, certainly, and far more than in the liberal urban centers who were taking over the Democrat party from its agrarian roots.
It was southern households who shed a disproportionate amount of blood in Viet Nam and the Democrats were promoting speakers and candidates calling them "baby killers" while doing their best to lose the war and cut off South Vietnam from aid to assure a communist victory.
But those bastards can't confront their own vile history and continue to indulge in the despicable, self-serving fantasy that all those Californians who voted for Nixon and Reagan must be racists.
Yeah, the South has a long history of racism. Especially when they were dominated by Democrat rule. But the South was always pro defense and respected soldiers. People weren't spitting on returning veterans at Fort Hood and Fort Rucker. They were doing it in California.
These people were and are venomous.
By the way - Don't let Democrats say they've rejected this ass and his ilk. Tom Hayden was a delegate at the 2016 Democrat convention. My father was also a delegate for Hillary, and sat with him at a banquet table.
My father is a Vietnam era Navy veteran and lifelong Democrat and had to sit at a table with Hayden.
"They got over themselves?"
And began a long stretch of crappy, saccharin songs.
Now playing at your local casino.
Tom and Jerry are the grandparents of the Antifa crew. Same whiny bullshit as it always was. White Privilege
Daley.
All that high minded leftist BS ended in an instant with Draft.
More BS from the left. It was all about ME.
Like Chuck, a Michigan graduate.
"My generation. Arrogant, entitled little shits. An entire cohort of David Hoggs."
In defense of my generation, I would point out that neither Tom nor Jerry were Baby Boomers.
"Can the Dems promise to do this again in 2020?"
Yes, but they'll do it at the Republican convention.
How much of Tom's own blood flowed?
Seems like many of the folks involved at that time were able to find a path to redemption. Eventually.
I'm old enough to remember when the ringleaders would appear on talk shows talking about disrupting the convention and provoking a riot. Then, when they got what they wanted, going into a "Who--US???" mode.
It was a brilliant stroke by Nixon to abolish the Draft. Too many losers who didn't want to be there.
But, before that, Nixon should have abolished the college deferment. Why should poor black and brown kids have had to fight rather than these spoiled, mostly white college kids?
I met Jerry Rubin about 15 years after the Convention. He looked liken a banker with hemorrhoids. He had seen the light and become a capitalist, but was still an angry asshole.
Abbie Hoffman was always the talent in that relationship. You could tell that he loved the stage.
I remember the smell of teargas - my school was about 2 miles from Grant Park. If I recall correctly, we were having summer football practice during the riots. It was an interesting summer.
"But, before that, Nixon should have abolished the college deferment."
He did. With a few exceptions and a grandfather clause.
Blood my ass. No one was killed , just 300 spoiled, gutless, acid- head kids with boo-boos. Compare that with the over nearly 17,000 of our boys killed in Vietnam that year. That makes the statement, by that new yorker writer a few blogs back likening the mayhem at the riots to the Vietnam War plain hyperbole.
Btw how ironic that in '68 the VC were completely wiped out due to Tet and subsquent mop-up and you see those idiots in Chicago proudly waving the VC flag.
Fake news is not a new phenomenon.That route of the VC was well hidden by our press.
He got to f**k Jane Fonda when she was hot. That, of course, has always been the appeal of radicalism: the hot chicks dig bad boys. His cause has accomplished nothing, ever, beyond getting his wick dipped.
And now with digital publication no one and everyone can steal the book
Obama's people. How quaint.
Why should poor black and brown kids have had to fight rather than these spoiled, mostly white college kids?
Dad always said he got here he did because a lot of the competition was killed off in WWII. Fortunately (for me, I guess), he spent the worst part of it in N. Ireland, training troops.
That didn't happen with Viet Nam as much.
"Why should poor black and brown kids have had to fight rather than these spoiled, mostly white college kids? "
One of the classical myths of the Vietnam, War. There was no disproportionate loss of black lives or enrollment to white lives. At that time blacks were roughly 12 % of the population and that was about the same percentage of blacks in Vietnam.
Now what was true is that more blacks were killed in that war than in any previous wars. Blacks were segregated in the military before '48(?).
You see we lost ~700,000 "privileged white boys" in the civil war, we lost ~ 200,000 "privileged white boys" in WWI and we lost ~440,000 "privileged white boys" in WWII.
Ignorance blinds people.
That quote is included in Tom's upcoming memoir, "How We Got Laid in the 60's".
How much of Tom's own blood flowed?
Not enough.
He got to f**k Jane Fonda when she was hot.
If you think that is nothing, watch Barbarella some time. Yikes!
In the academy, we studied the 68 convention riot as two riots: one by the radicals, and one by the Chicago PD.
@ Phil 3:14
I still have the original paperback copy.
I bought it. That's why I am not a hippie pinko any more.
And after all that, Humphrey barely lost the election. And President Nixon had a hostile Congress to face beginning in 1969.
mccullough said...
"Crack,
That was really good. What year is that song (LA Riots period?)"
Thanks. Yes, it was from 1992. The album was called Play More Music and it featured me, Jack Dangers (of Meat Beat Manifesto) Paris (The Black Panther of Hip-Hop) and The Yeastie Girls.
If you think that is nothing, watch Barbarella some time. Yikes!
I'm partial to the Barefoot In The Park Fonda. When a woman has to walk up five flights of stairs to get home only good things can happen.
And the riot squad they're restless, they need somewhere to go
As Lady and I look out tonight, from Desolation Row
Nixon supposedly had a Secret Plan to End the War, although he never said that he did. Anyway, he was the peace candidate in 1968, although he was unconvincing as a peacenik.
"Nixon supposedly had a Secret Plan to End the War, although he never said that he did."
He did have a secret plan to end the war -- and executed it, beautifully.
His plan was to open up China, exploiting the wedge between ChiComs and Soviets. To do this, he used Vietnam as a bargaining chip. In essence, he offered China a chance to enter the modern, capitalist world as a rival (not an enemy), while we directed our efforts to destabilize the Soviets.
The price China paid was allowing us to slowly surrender Vietnam.
But look at China in 1972 compared to 2018. (This was by design)
And look at Vietnam in 1972 compared to 2018 (This was mostly luck).
Tom Hayden was a misguided, self-righteous prick. Bill Ayers, on the other hand, was a real serpent. My flesh began to crawl hearing him speak.
"In defense of my generation, I would point out that neither Tom nor Jerry were Baby Boomers.
Most SDS members in the early days, especially the leadership, were pre-Baby Boom. Baby The first Baby Boomers (if you count 1945 as the starting date) weren't even eligible to vote until 1966. Their numbers, as a voting cohort, were correspondingly small relative to the total electorate, and they had little substantive effect elector outcomes. This would remain the case for the better part of the next decade.
Baby Boomers get a bad rap for a lot of the crap that happened in the 60s. The anti-American leftist intellectual rot was by the mid-60s well established in the universities, and this was accomplished by pre-Baby Boomers.
Meanwhile a largely draftee army of Baby Boomer soldiers and servicemen was fighting and winning just about every battle that was fought in Vietnam. They, and their victories, were sold down the river by the wretched and pusillanimous military and civilian leadership of what has since become known as the greatest generation.
As for Chicago 68: I posted a lot about my experiences of that "event" in yesterdays thread. I was there for some of it, not as a participant but as an interested observer. I was 18 years old.
Why should poor black and brown kids have had to fight rather than these spoiled, mostly white college kids?
That's a cliche, and a canard. During the Vietnam war the armed services were overwhelming white in their racial cast. Blacks were disproportionately represented in terms of their total numbers but even so the white by far and away outnumbered blacks and Hispanics, even in line (combat) infantry units. It's also false that most of those who served in Vietnam, especially in line combat units, were poor kids and/or lower class kids. The army in Vietnam was composed of a cross-section of American society; it would be more accurate to say that the armed services of the United States was a bourgeois army with a majority drawn from the middle and lower middle classes. It is important to grasp that many of draftees were inducted AFTER they graduated and their student deferments expired. In the mid-to-late 60s and early 70s when the draft was going strong going to college was merely a way to temporarily avoid military service.
As Otto points out above, and as I stated yesterday, NO ONE was killed in the Chicago riots.
And I think this point bears repeating, and it is a point I will return to when ignorant fools talk smack about my generation, the Baby Boomers:
In the Vietnam War a largely draftee army of Baby Boomer soldiers and servicemen fought and won every major battle and campaign in that conflict. Repeat: EVERY MAJOR BATTLE AND CAMPAIGN. But they, and their victories, were sold down the river by the wretched and pusillanimous military and civilian leadership of what has since become known as the greatest generation. The greatest generation failed us, betrayed us. Our war lasted longer than the war fought by the generation and in relative the fighting was equally as savage and much more constant. Our civilian and military leaders, including the ranking officers in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines, were incompetent and craven, and they screwed us. By 1970 the average age of a line infantry unit soldier was 19. In World War II the average age was c. 23. In Vietnam 55,000 mostly Baby Boomer boys were killed and hundreds of thousands were wounded because our the civilian and military of leaders parents' generation had neither the intelligence, competence, nor backbone to fight and win the war.
well his plan, was the Malaya plan, which involved transferring responsibility to the arvn, the cords/phoenix pacification was the sharp end of the stick, I don't think the opening to china, had much impact except with the khmer rouge
I think there were problems with the war strategy from the get go, despite the events in the fall of 63, according to mayor's research, the counterinsurgency strategy with advisors were working reasonably well, until the diem coup which was an unforced error,
why did they think a large military complement, that would be not be flexible in the terrain, much like the French expedition would work, (one could make a similar argument about our conduct in Afghanistan and Iraq)
It's always quaint to see the academia-media portion of the Left talk revolutionary violence, like they would last five minutes in a real fight against anyone except perhaps disarmed big-city police.
narcisco:
Good points but even so the war under Nixon was heading for what looked to be a favorable conclusion. The plan as you observed was phased withdrawal of American troops coinciding with the ARVN replacing them. This combined with the steady expansion of the strategic hamlets programs plus the bombing of the North was steadily bringing the Hanoi leadership to their collective knees. The idea being that if the North resumed major operations in SVN the ARVN would do the fighting on land we would back them with air power, logistics, and intelligence.
This worked perfectly in the Hanoi's 1972 Easter Offensive which was smashed by ARVN ground forces assisted by American air power.
We all know, alas, what happened subsequent to that victory.
I happened to run into a retired cop some time ago whose precinct's explosives didn't detonate . Seems it was set for shift change, and would have been a high body count. They took a real dim view of "activists" from there on. Personally, I'm not convinced SDS ever disbanded. They were trust-fund kids, entrenched in their beliefs like Bill and Bernadine, the ACORN folks. Would be retired to Martha's Vineyard kinda places by this time I'd guess.
It is a curious fact that revolutionary leaders tend to be middle and upper middle class and educated. Never forget: Robespierre was a lawyer. Coincidence? I think not.
mikee said...
"He got to f**k Jane Fonda when she was hot. That, of course, has always been the appeal of radicalism: the hot chicks dig bad boys. His cause has accomplished nothing, ever, beyond getting his wick dipped."
Who didn't fuck Jane Fonda, she had daddy issues. Her husband Roger Vadim pimped her out to bring home sex partners, evidently he liked to watch. By the time Hayden got her it wasn't sloppy seconds it was sloppy seconds x 200+. She's always been a skank.
Well, according to her, she's now closed for business down there. So we got that going for us.
"Personally, I'm not convinced SDS ever disbanded. They were trust-fund kids, entrenched in their beliefs like Bill and Bernadine, the ACORN folks."
Bill and Bernadine were very tight with a group of Chicago academics from UIC, DePaul, Loyola and Northwestern along with other community organizers. A lot of the professors were community psychologists and communists. I know some of them, unfortunately.
Barack Obama is very familiar with that crowd. They hosted him at plenty of parties.
"In the Vietnam War a largely draftee army of Baby Boomer soldiers and servicemen fought and won every major battle and campaign in that conflict. Repeat: EVERY MAJOR BATTLE AND CAMPAIGN. But they, and their victories, were sold down the river by the wretched and pusillanimous military and civilian leadership of what has since become known as the greatest generation. The greatest generation failed us, betrayed us."
Would you say we were "stabbed in the back?"
Nixon's "secret plan" to end the war was to do his best to undermine LBJ's attempts to negotiate a peace by telling the North Vietnamese he would offer them a better deal, and then wait the entire four years of his first term doing nothing. He didn't, of course, have a "better deal" or a "secret plan." He was lying to the VC leadership as he was to us, simply to win the presidency on the back of LBJ's failure.
His "secret plan" to win the presidency worked!
Nixon's plan worked as by 1972 almost all US ground troops were out of Vietnam.
That occurred 1969-72. First term.
The South Vietnamese were stabbed in the back. Those refugees in the US certainly had this opinion. The SV's were promised ongoing US aid and military (air) support, and they were denied this, 1973-75. They could not afford to import fuel or replenish ammunition.
"Robespierre was a lawyer. Coincidence? I think not."
So was Cortes. So was my ancestor the last conquistador. Its a good rule, but not infallible.
"Nixon's plan worked as by 1972 almost all US ground troops were out of Vietnam."
Yes...the end of his first term. Devised belatedly, calculated to help him win re-election.
Madame chennault simply reminded Thieu of the concern or lack of concern Truman had back in 1948.
"The South Vietnamese were stabbed in the back. Those refugees in the US certainly had this opinion. The SV's were promised ongoing US aid and military (air) support, and they were denied this, 1973-75. They could not afford to import fuel or replenish ammunition."
Yes. Nixon's "secret plan" (sic) was to abandon the war and our supposed goal there (whatever it supposedly was...to keep the Commies from overtaking the world, as told to and believed by the credulous) when it became expedient for his political ambitions. Of course, we never should have been in Vietnam to begin with. We have never learned our lesson, and never will.
Henry VI, Part 2, Act IV, Scene 2.
Excellent advice from Dick the Butcher.
Getting mad about hippies from 50 years ago? What's the matter is the mere thought of NFL players kneeling not enough to trigger that righteous right-wing rage anymore?
Well that would go back to 1945, when we aided hi chi Minh against the Vichy French, one of those self inflicted errors.
The alternative to Nixon's Secret Plan was to continue LBJ's obvious plan. Hobson's choice.
"Getting mad about hippies from 50 years ago?"
Theirs was but one part, one stage, of the poison that has killed you. 50 years on their work is manifest. The condition is now terminal.
The Closing of the American Mind
One of many observations of the process. Nothing left to do now but bury all the dead brains.
I've two cousins with their names on the Wall in DC, one of them taught me to play baseball. As I understand it from family discussions at holidays after the war, the Democratic congress elected in 1972 voted to refuse the promised military support to their erstwhile South Vietnamese allies. I may be very much mistaken, but that is my understanding, and will await correction if I am in error.
I'm not arguing for or against our involvement in Southeast Asia. That's another subject, vast and complicated. But Nixon's plan was working: which is to say, it was moving things in the right direction. The Allied victory in 1972 was a positive indicator. This took place while Creighton Abrams was chief of MAC-V. Abrams and Nixon deserve much credit the hopeful turn of events in SVN. By the time Abrams left MAC-V in 1972 after the Easter Offensive victory the war in Vietnam seemed winnable. Whether it was indeed winnable is another vast and complex subject which I won't go into here.
Nothing left to do now but bury all the dead brains.
Oh, goodness. You do have a flair for the dramatic, don't you.
the Democratic congress elected in 1972 voted to refuse the promised military support to their erstwhile South Vietnamese allies.<
It was the 1974, "Post Watergate" Congress that abandoned the SV and gave us 21% inflation while they were doing it.
A researcher I know called it mind arson, bill Ayers took the lesson from the social revolutionaries that a regime cannot be toppled merely through violence, so he followed the leninist/gramscu root, this was a lesson the montineros the tupamaros didn't get intially
Of course, we never should have been in Vietnam to begin with
We certainly should not have been there as we were.
Max Boot has gone nutso since the election but his biography of Lansdale suggest there might have been another course.
It probably would not have worked as the Philippines are islands and SV was not. Still, Lansdale was adamantly against a big troop presence.
McNamara kept Lansdale away from SV and Diem, who trusted him, asked for him repeatedly.
"Oh, goodness. You do have a flair for the dramatic, don't you."
There is nothing but drama.
All we know and do is a narrative.
Often dull, sometimes not.
"as the Philippines are islands"
More to the point, the Filipinos aren't Vietnamese.
Alan Bloom wrote a very good book. It holds up. It is curious to note that his mind was by no means closed but rather wide open after a certain fashion of his time and cultural milieu, that of the University of Chicago and the Hyde Park neighborhood where the university is ensconced. Alan was quite gay and he had a penchant for lithe Filipino houseboys and was often seen in the company of such. This was no secret in Hyde Park much less to those who knew him. He made no attempt to conceal it. He was quite the character, smart and funny. He lived in the same apartment complex as my brother and I can confirm the sightings. In "Closing of the American Mind" he professes his admiration for Classical Greek civilization and it was plainly evident that his admiration went beyond mere lip service.
I recommend reading "Destructive Generation."
Warning: You will want to take a long, hot shower after reading.
Who in the top staff at mac, had any understanding of unconventional warfare,(harkin, westmoreland) the Malaya experience was closer to the experience of a robust counterinsurgency campaign. With a political component, as with so salvador in the 80s.
El salvador, I'm guessing Marcos was too iron fist and his regime too brittle to crush the npa or was I wrong?
Consider this ... Draft and deferments ...
Good for education industry, similar to students loan load now.
Return alive and be despised.
GI benefits ... Boost education industry + almost captives for indoctrination, groom for antiamerican.
Of course, we never should have been in Vietnam to begin with. We have never learned our lesson, and never will.
Cookie, that's one opinion of mine from the 60's that hasn't changed with the rest of my political viewpoints. And it is disappointing that nothing was learned from that sad experience.
Malaya was more in the nature of a gimme.
A communist insurgency stoked up almost exclusively among the Chinese minority, in a Malay-majority country. The Malays despised and feared the Chinese. Lets say that, in Maoist terms, those fish were trying to swim in very unpromising water.
Are *legacy* kids like McCain much different from trust fund kids?
Getting mad about hippies from 50 years ago? What's the matter is the mere thought of NFL players kneeling not enough to trigger that righteous right-wing rage anymore?
Now those hippies are Bohos and they still want us squares to pay for their lifestyle. The more things change....
So it was more like sukarno in 65, support was a mile wide, but an inch deep, I was thinking Malaya because unlike Filipinos it's a peninsula. And it's near China.
the Malaya experience was closer to the experience of a robust counterinsurgency campaign.
The British tried to teach Westmoreland but the guerrillas in Malaya were Chinese.
The Vietnamese who have come since 1975 are not that dissimilar from Filipinos, not all Catholic of course, but lots of middle class.
I knew a lot of them in Orange County.
I think geography was important.
"I'm guessing Marcos was too iron fist and his regime too brittle to crush the npa or was I wrong?"
The NPA was for a long time more competent and more virtuous than the government, no matter who was in charge, Marcos or his successors. Out in the provinces government authority is conditional and uncertain. All matters are up for negotiation, laws are suggestions, and most people prefer to establish a modus vivendi.
The NPA was easily able to survive in such a system. They never convinced many people, but they were clever enough to leave most people alone, or to keep their forced taxes light enough and their depredations within humane bounds.
This is not a lesson the various Muslim rebels have learned btw. Unlike the NPA many of them revel in savagery.
"Kick in their asses if you have to" was the command coming down to the Chicago police force according to Officer Jack Muller. I excerpted some lines from his out-of-print book, "I, Pig," back here.
Althouse used to have a commenter and retired Chicago cop named Peter Van Bella. He actually recalled Muller, who became somewhat of a legend. Perhaps he was there too in '68.
narcisco:
And yet, and yet ... Westmoreland has been excoriated as the "General Who Lost Vietnam" (see, especially in this regard, Lewis Sorley's eponymous book), but the argument can be made and has been made, quite convincingly in some instances, that Abrams's turnaround would not have happened nor been possible without being preceded by several years of Westmoreland's attrition strategy implemented via search-and-destroy big-unit operations. The Allied victory in Tet 68 is presented as a case in point to bolster this argument. A COIN approach to the conflict was not useful or practicable by the time the VC and NVA unleashed Tet, which was a big-scale offensive that resulted in the effective destruction of the VC as fighting force. In other words: the insurgency, as embodied by the VC, was crushed by conventional forces using conventional tactics. Thus it could be and has been argued that Westmoreland's attrition strategy from 1969 through Tet 68 and Tet 69 (yes, there was a Tet 69) wore down enemy forces sufficiently for Abrams to affect implement his polies and affect his much-vaunted turnaround.
I'm agnostic on the subject.
I find it difficult to keep separate in my mind Robert McNamara and Paul Samuelson.
Anybody who can help ... any connections other than contemporaries?
Very interesting, that may be true, there s just too much at stake in furthering the quagmire narrative, Moyars work 're the diem years was rarely given credence not at the house that halberstan built but the post and even the journal.
Samuelson was the one who pedaling Keynesianism not Ford's worst conceived line, but ymmv.
Re relations between Malays and the Chinese-in-Malaya:
The Malay population was complicit in the Sook Ching, the mini-genocide conducted by the Japanese against Malayan Chinese immediately following the fall of Singapore in February 1942. Sook Ching translates as "purging through cleansing," and it resulted in the murder of well over 100,000 ethnic Chinese.
Q: wasn't Westmoreland against all volunteer military? Was he much concerned about USA force attrition?
My impression is that he was grinder of cannon fodder!
Maybe the unlearned lessons are about judging military leadership character - uniforms assist political cloaking
I think the jury is very much still out for Westmoreland, the book on him is still far from closed. If you dislike Westmoreland, I suggest you read Sorely's book, Sorely despises him. But Westmoreland has his supporters and their arguments in his favor can be compelling. I just don't know, maybe I never will know. It could well be that Westmoreland's strategy of attrition with its meatgrinder battles was called and necessary at the time. I don't think COIN would have worked by the time he arrived on the scene. COIN properly applied might have been successful in 1962 or thereabout but I don't think it was practicable after, say, 1965.
On a related note: over the past month I've re-read "Hell in Very Small Place", "Street Without Joy," both by Bernard Fall, and Alistair Horne's "Savage War of Peace" about France's Algerian War. Comparisons with our Vietnam experience suggest themselves continually. Some of those comparisons are valid, most, I think, are not.
The problem with these bruahfire wars is where does victory lie, this has also been the problem in Afghanistan the korengal valley is symbolic.
Probably not, when you have the leader of the country you say you're going to cooperate with and you leave a passel of greedy overpromoted officers in charge you leave a bad taste.
What a disconnected culture ...
Moon landings and misfought wars ...
Both for vanity of Presidents.
"The problem with these bruahfire wars is where does victory lie"
The solution is to give (generous) land grants to your veterans, have them marry into the local tribes, and connect them to you by blood. That's what Alexander did.
The Seleucids (Alexanders successors in the East) and the later Greek kingdom of Bactria ruled what is now Afghanistan for almost 200 years. That's a pretty good run.
I agree, narcisco. The problem is at the strategic level not the tactical or operational levels. Generally speaking I'm against involvement in brushfire wars. I'm unimpressed with COIN. COIN was all the rage in the early 2000s after 9/11 but lately it has fallen, or is falling, out of favor. And deservedly so, in my opinion. This process has accelerated since the publication in October 2017 of the army's updated FM 3-0 Operations. This iteration of 3-0 de-emphasizes COIN. I see COIN and the use of special operations-type forces as a principle war-waging instrument as a recipe for unending war. It results in a tail-wags-the-dog strategy: war at the tactical fought by tactical-level special ops units tends to dictate strategy rather than vice-versa.
That said: I AM in favor of punitive expeditions, in-and-out operations featuring the use of maximum force.
I do believe, as well, that we should terminate our military presence in Afghanistan.
the later Greek kingdom of Bactria ruled what is now Afghanistan for almost 200 years. That's a pretty good run.
That's where the Afghan girl with the green eyes came from.
If you gave grants of land in Afghanistan to American veterans of that conflict, within days of their taking residence on their new holdings their severed heads would found mounted on fence posts with severed genitals stuffed in their mouths.
And for most of their two-century existence the Hellenic kingdoms in what is now Afghanistan and Northwest India were fighting desperately to stay alive. The Mauryans did them a favor by absorbing them.
Michael K:
Girls with green eyes were in Afghanistan/Bactria long, long before the arrival of the Greeks and Macedonians. That area -- i.e. the BMAC, Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex -- is probably the "ur-heimat" of the Indo-European peoples, and Indo-European blood lines, which is to say DNA, runs strong and deep in the Pashtuns and other peoples of the region.
Michael K,
I was deeply in love with a girl named Sikandra. Her father's University of Chicago dissertation was "The way of the Pathan." Amazing what an impression Alexander made upon the Afghani tribes just by passing through. His name was James Spain. Somehow, I imagine that you might have known him.
Obligatory: It's just this war and that lying son of a bitch Johnson!
OMG Michael K,
Just now I looked up James Spain's biography, and found that he was a classmate of Andrew Greeley's. I know you unflatteringly mentioned Andrew recently, but I worked for him as an analyst during the late seventies. Small small world.
An existential war concentrates the mind wonderfully. Sherman and Sheridan learned the genocidal tactics they used against the Indians by practicing on white southerners. Such tactics work. It's hard to use such tactics in dilettante conflicts though.
I watched about fifteen minutes of that documentary. How many generations have to pass before filmmakers look at people like Hoffman and Hayden with skeptical eyes?....I'm no fan of Daley but he governed a city that people wanted to live in. There was more to him than that one moment in time.
And then he married Jane Fonda!
But a war of eradication, like the Algerians did in the 90s, can't be done with the sponsor regime, France, in that case. On the premises. A similar example was Guatemala in the 80s, what the un inaccurately charged foods mint with,
Rios Montt, Carlos sabino proved the error in that charge.
Quite a change from not giving forty acres and a mule (as promised?). What is the story here?
Before we try this in Afghanistan how about freeing up USA federal land for homesteading?
It's instructive to consider the Soviets got into Vietnam, even more haphazeardly then we did, they sent a special forces to take out their supposed ally amin.
Well you understood I meant Afghanistan, the fellow who gave up the Chapman ring, reputedly was part of those teams.
Hello me, meet the real me
And my misfit's way of life
A dark black past is my
Most valued possession
Hindsight is always 20-20
But looking back it's still a bit fuzzy
Speak of mutually assured destruction?
Nice story, tell it to Reader's Digest!
Feeling paranoid
True enemy or false friend?
Anxiety's attacking me and
My air is getting thin
I'm in trouble for the things
I haven't got to yet
I'm chomping at the bit and my
Palms are getting wet, sweating bullets
Hello me, it's me again
You can subdue but never tame me
It gives me a migraine headache
Sinking down to your level
Yea, just keep on thinking it's my fault
And stay an inch or two outta kicking distance
Mankind has got to know
His limitations
Feeling claustrophobic
Like the walls are closing in
Blood stains on my hands and
I don't know where I've been
I'm in trouble for the things
I haven't got to yet
I'm sharpening the axe and my
Palms are getting wet, sweating bullets
Well, me, it's nice talking to myself
A credit to dementia
Some day you too will know my pain
And smile its blacktooth grin
If the war inside my head
Won't take a day off I'll be dead
My icy fingers claw your back
Here I come again
Feeling paranoid
True enemy or false friend?
Anxiety's attacking me
And my air is getting thin
Feeling claustrophobic
Like the walls are closing in
Blood stains on my hands
And I don't know where I've been
Once you committed me
Now you've acquitted me
Claiming validity
For your stupidity
I'm chomping at the bit
I'm sharpening the axe
Here I come again, whoa
Sweating bullets
So many of Ann's commenters here come out in favor of the tactics of the Chicago police at the 68 convention, just as they favored the tactics and strategy of the US Army in Vietnam.
They feel entitled to deride and insult protest leaders like Tom Haydn, except to say they'd like to hate-fuck his hot wife, who obsesses them.
Few of them read the attachment of the court summary or watched the video for context, or if they did they haven't shown it unless it is to applaud the images of the cops beating up the hippies. At a faraway town, on the same tangent, is My Lai
This I think is the real break in my generation: the people who supported Nixon and the Vietnam war, the descendants of his silent generation, who would have cracked down harder then if he had got away with it, and the young people and some of their parents who hated the war and Nixon and Johnson who prosecuted it, and thought the counterculture had a political chance, which it turns out not so much. Media and entertainment a different story.
Ann, that's a great video, showing fractures in our society that are opening wider today.
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