July 25, 2018

"United States and Europe Forestall Trade War With Preliminary Agreement, Further Talks."

The NYT reports.
The announcement, made by Mr. Trump and the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, defused, for the moment, a trade battle that began with Mr. Trump’s tariffs on European steel and aluminum exports and threatened to escalate to its automobiles.

“We’re starting the negotiation right now, but we know very much where it’s going,” Mr. Trump said, standing next to Mr. Juncker at a hastily-scheduled appearance in the White House Rose Garden.

Mr. Juncker said, “I had the intention to make a deal today, and we have made a deal today.” He said both sides would hold off on further tariffs, and potentially drop the existing ones, unless they fail to agree on a deal to reduce tariffs, non-tariff barriers, and subsidies to zero.
Oh, no. Good news. There must be some way that it's actually bad news...

166 comments:

Oso Negro said...

Someone will be along with some higher modality that we pissants just can't understand.

Marcus Carman said...

Turn on CNN or MSNBC. They'll find a way in no time.

Mattman26 said...

As if this wasn't the most predictable outcome in the history of predictable outcomes.

rhhardin said...

Any change at all leaves somebody worse off, by affecting prices. A tariff-free price structure is overall more beneficial, however; I assume Trump is aiming at that and using tariffs as waypoints to force the other guy to drop tariffs in a deal. The idea is that the US is such a big market that the other guy always loses a trade war (hurts worse than the US does).

The media will always find out who's worse off and run the story, in the meantime.

The overall Trump idea may be wrong, not in theory but in practice, in that it imports poverty. That's what the theory of free trade overlooks. He may want to keep certain tariffs, so that nobody in the US is horribly worse off even at the cost of lesser benefit to other US people.

Known Unknown said...

I love free trade, but I don't think we really have free trade to begin with.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

agree on a deal to reduce tariffs, non-tariff barriers, and subsidies to zero.

Holy cow! Am I reading that right. The EU and US plan to agree to reduce tariffs to zero ( no way they'll reduce subsidies to zero).

That is a huge concession from the EU. That'll also prop up the Brixiteers.

This is Yuuuge.

Unknown said...

Next headline: "With Europe Trade Deal Trump Shows He Really Does Know How To Negotiate".

Nah, just kidding.

-sw

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Bergall said...

Trump got their attention, this has been flying under the radar for years

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

in theory but in practice, in that it imports poverty.

I'm all in favor of free trade with developed countries that enforce worker safety and environmental laws. There can be no free trade with third world countries. It was always a plan to boost corporate profits at the expense of working people.

rcocean said...

Thank God. That "TRADE WAR" was so scary.

Hopefully, Trump will surrender, and everything will be OK.

Just like it always is.

Jason said...

The idea is also to further isolate China. The more favorable the agreements the other major global trading partners make with the United States, the more leverage we have on China, who don't want to be the odd man out.

It's difficult for China to get away from the massive subsidies of their own steel and coal exports, though President Xi has been working on chipping that away for the last several years. If they do it too quickly they have massive demographic problems and even the potential threat of a revolt in the industrial northeast, which is where the heavy industry is centered.

China also has massive corporate debt problems - dwarfing our own. Their corporations will have trouble cash flowing through a disruptive trade war. Xi knows he has to be very careful. Of course, he doesn't want to roll over. But if Trump leaves him an honorable way out, with some major trade concession, he'll happily take it, make some iPhones, sell some manufactured goods and declare victory.

Chuck said...

So it counts as good news in TrumpWorld, when the problem precipitated by Trump is forestalled temporarily?

The TrumpWorld claim will be, See, it worked! We got them negotiating! But today's news doesn't tell us anything other than that a disastrous trade war is being averted. It says not one thing about where we will end up on trade. Trump is going to get credit now, for averting a big problem that he started all by himself? We don't know that anything that has been done by Trump puts us in any better negotiating position.

Althouse, if this is good news perhaps you can explain why it is good. We are sort of returning to the status quo ante, with an understanding that future negotiations will follow. Where in any of this does credit accrue to Trump?

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

I'm still in shock and I don't believe it. No way Germany and France will give up their protective barriers. The French unions eill be rioting in the streets.

rcocean said...

Just remember Trump is NOT fighting for American Industry and Workers.

He's engaged in a TRADE WAR!

He's a crazy, madman.

rcocean said...

"Althouse, if this is good news perhaps you can explain why it is good."

Trolling 101.

Demand detailed explanations for every statement.

AJ Lynch said...

"Oh, no. Good news. There must be some way that it's actually bad news..."

That is hilarious - great line Professor!

Drago said...

I LOVE the NEW LLR Chuck where all subterfuge is discarded and he comes out loud and proud for the dems.

Good move Chuckie. Much healthier for you in the long run!

Big Mike said...

It continues to appear that Trump knows things that alleged experts do not. It’s kind of reminiscent of the experts not spotting the end of the Cold War.

Chuck said...

Jason said...
The idea is also to further isolate China. The more favorable the agreements the other major global trading partners make with the United States, the more leverage we have on China, who don't want to be the odd man out.


I would think that the best way to isolate China would be to enter the Trans-Pacific Partnership (which excludes China) and to work very closely with the EU, to isolate China on things like intellectual property rights and abuses.

China really is a terrible abuser of IP rules. The Chinese abuse American IP and European IP alike. Our interests are allied with Europe's on that, and together we'd be more effective in combatting Chinese abuses.

rhhardin said...

It was always a plan to boost corporate profits at the expense of working people.

Corporate profits are always competed to zero (compared to the next best use of capital), unless there's some sweetheart deal with government to keep competitors out.

In this case, US competitors suffice to drive the profits to zero. You only get obscene profits if you're the only one doing it.

However, letting low wage countries without environmental regulation compete directly with US companies is a bad idea. Even the low wage feature is a bad idea. A tariff somewhat based on the wage differential might be the way to go, slowly changing as things change.

US consumers are willing to pay more for appliances if the Hudson River is cleaned up; poor countries are not rich enough yet to make that choice.

Chuck said...

AJ Lynch said...
"Oh, no. Good news. There must be some way that it's actually bad news..."

That is hilarious - great line Professor!



That is Althouse's TDSDS acting up on her. I'm not claiming that it is "actually bad news." I am just questioning why, under the circumstances, it is such "good news." What was accomplished, apart from forestalling a disaster that Trump concocted?

AJ Lynch said...

Jesus Christ Chuck. I believe any deal that lowers or eliminates tariffs on our exports is an improvement for us. What's to understand?

Drago said...
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Drago said...

Does anyone have LLR Chuck's therapist on speed dial?

Sebastian said...

"a deal to reduce tariffs, non-tariff barriers, and subsidies to zero."

Zero is a high standard. I'll believe it when I see it.

Tariffs are the easy part. There are thousands of "non-tariff barriers," here and there. No subsidies for sugar, green energy, etc.?

Can we even make California give up its own non-tariff barriers, like emissions standards?

If we agree on no subsidies with Europe, can we still subsidize a tiny bit as leverage or in retaliation for Chinese actions?.

But reductions in tariffs, barriers, and subsidies would be positive. I'll take more than zero but less than now.

And by the way, if, if that is the outcome, was Trump right that "tariffs are the greatest"?

Drago said...
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Drago said...

This is turning out to be the absolute worst day ever for LLR Chuck, except for all the others with the lone exception being obamas fake greek columns speech.

EDH said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ken B said...

“Defused”? Sounds like the EU surrendered.

Seeing Red said...

And Mexico signaled a deal in the works

Seeing Red said...

The market seems to be happy.

Seeing Red said...

The disaster is we’ve been taken for a ride for far too long.

Seeing Red said...

The EU takes more beans while China put a tariff on them.

Hehehehe

traditionalguy said...

OMG, we just made peace with the Germans. At this rate the Military Industrial Complex will be out of work. Maybe they can switch over to making plowshares. Trump is a difficult boy.

Now about that gold standard cutting the Federal Reserve scam's throat. Get ready.

Seeing Red said...

The EU should pull a Canada and turn around and sell them for higher profit to China.

Hagar said...

Xi is not emperor nor Mao, but more like chairman of the board - and a fractious board at that.

Seeing Red said...

How far we’ve come from just yesterday lolololol.

Big Mike said...

If only Chuck lived in Michigan, he's be thrilled at the chance that Ford could export Mustangs and Escapes to Europe without a tariff.

Oh, wait.

Chuck said...

AJ Lynch said...
Jesus Christ Chuck. I believe any deal that lowers or eliminates tariffs on our exports is an improvement for us. What's to understand?


But there is no such deal yet. Is it a good idea to try to negotiate toward such an agreement? Yes, I'd say. So we are going to negotiate; great.

Tell me what the "good news" is. The good news for today is that a Trump-caused disaster is averted for the time being.

tcrosse said...

Food for thought for Theresa May.

Seeing Red said...

And by the way, if, if that is the outcome, was Trump right that "tariffs are the greatest"?


They might have had an inkling when that was tweeted.

I want them to give up the Iranians.

Seeing Red said...

Tell me what the "good news" is. The good news for today is that a Trump-caused disaster is averted for the time being.


A. Trump didn’t negotiate the other deals.

B. It’s the 21st century not the mid-20th.

Matthew Sablan said...

I survived Net Neutrality and The Trade War. What else was supposed to kill us all?

Chuck said...

Big Mike said...
If only Chuck lived in Michigan, he's be thrilled at the chance that Ford could export Mustangs and Escapes to Europe without a tariff.

Oh, wait.


That would be fine.

In the meantime, Trump's various trade war maneuvers are pissing off the Detroit automakers:

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/editorials/2018/05/25/editorial-automakers-trumps-detroit-trade-nafta-tariffs/635017002/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greggardner/2018/07/25/automakers-warn-of-a-bumpy-road-ahead-trumps-tariffs-could-make-it-worse/#d94342f5f4b6

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2018/07/17/trump-tariffs-automakers/793165002/

Jason said...

We were all supposed to die in a fiery inferno from North Korean missiles.

And also, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act.

Big Mike said...

In the meantime, Trump's various trade war maneuvers are pissing off the Detroit automakers:

They need to spend more time figuring out what Trump is up to and less time listening to pants pissers like you.

Big Mike said...

It occurs to me that only now, with Trump's election, are we getting "change we can believe in."

Seeing Red said...

Detroit automakers want tariffs?

h said...

I noticed a couple days ago the WaPo had a headline "without evidence, Trump claims russia will help Democrats in the 2018". I really love the "without evidence" formulation and I've been looking for other ways to use it. How about "Without evidence Trump claims US and EU forestall trade war." or "Without evidence, Trump claims that his wife can watch CNN".

Seeing Red said...

Not surprised after the shit they pulled around the mid-80s.

At that time Japan was making a better quality vehicle and Japan’s prices were higher so the Detroit automakers in their infinite wisdom decided to raise the prices on their inferior products “to compete.”

AJ Lynch said...

Chuck - this post by Althouse is about a RUMORED POTENTIAL deal right? And that is what most of us are commenting on right?

Trump didn't invent tariffs nor did he bend over like the last 5-6 presidents when these other countries screwed our workers.

Trump is merely living up to another one of his campaign promises to try and level the playing field. Even you should give him some credit for that.

Seeing Red said...

Don’t forget the EPA loosening rules.

rhhardin said...

Prices determine which businesses are profitable and which are not. If prices change, some of the businesses go out of business, and new businesses become profitable. News focusses on the out of business half.

On the other hand Trump has some obligation to keep as many old businesses in business as possible, for some long transition time.

Fernandistein said...

When I wanted to sell a used American owned Japanese made motorcycle in France they wanted a 40% tax.

BamaBadgOR said...

Breaking News: Nattering Nabobs of Negativism trying hard to find reasons to argue why Trump is not the biggest free/fair trade president of all time.

Molly said...

(eaglebeak)

And as for CHINA--According to South China Morning Post, things not going so great for them:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2144761/chinas-first-current-account-deficit-17-years-could-signal

Also, our huge trade deficits weren't caused by Trump, for heaven's sake. They were caused by years of crap with WTO, by letting China into the WTO, and by Europe's insistence on subsidizing its industries.

Seeing Red said...

So basically this AM the auto Sky is falling articles came out and this PM we’re coming to agreements?

I love timing.

Jersey Fled said...

I forget. What Trump meme are we supposed to be all outraged about now? STORMY. No. Russia? Maybe. Trump is Hitler?

So confusing.

Jason said...

Literally Kristallnacht.

pacwest said...

"What was accomplished, apart from forestalling a disaster that Trump concocted?"

NK at the negotiation table. EU at the negotiation table. But I guess they would have come willingly without the Trump "disaster" according to you.

Yes, it is good news. I still have reservations about Trump's strategy, but he may well prove me wrong. I hope so.

Jim at said...

Trump is merely living up to another one of his campaign promises to try and level the playing field. Even you should give him some credit for that.

You're wasting your time.

Gahrie said...

What was accomplished, apart from forestalling a disaster that Trump concocted?

Trump forced the EU to get serious about free trade.

Seeing Red said...

Lawyer Chuck gives the impression that he would have argued that the US keep their agreements with the USSR after it fell and that entity disappeared.

Pookie Number 2 said...

Even you should give him some credit for that.

Requires integrity not in evidence.

Michael K said...

Where in any of this does credit accrue to Trump?

Chuck, you're making me nervous again. Here I was confident that you really were a lawyer and smart and all that.

Now you sound like Rachel Madcow again. Trump offered the EU zero tariffs on both sides and they said no.

So now they are saying "maybe," and you are all upset and this is nothing to Trump's credit.

Are you really a college graduate ?

Seeing Red said...

I’m reading Insty. They were in a 2 hour meeting.

Fandor said...

Trump is the heir to Ronald Reagan. He has reached higher and accomplished more. President Reagan would approve.

iowan2 said...

"And Mexico signaled a deal in the works"

I heard a clip where the Mexico negotiator called President Trump the smartest negotiator he had ever dealt with.

robother said...

A new better trade deal with the EU? Its just a distraction from the real issue, cash or check for the Playboy Bunny? And why would Trump ever deal with a New York lawyer named Cohn? Didn't he ever see Angels in America?

Original Mike said...

“Does anyone have LLR Chuck's therapist on speed dial?”

If you’re looking for a therapist, I’d look elsewhere. Chuck’s isn’t doing such a good job.

Guildofcannonballs said...

The more I see, the more I think being able to think in a 2x2 way not 1x1 or 1x2 or 2x1 is all that is needed to greatly excel.

As a potential 2x3 or 3x2 thinker Hardin does retain a certain sort of superiority.

But I worship math-talkers so I am biased and bigoted and prejudiced, too.

Mike said...

Oh Good. Another round of "let's praise Trump for solving the problem he created in the first place." And I bet we end up with a worse trade situation than we started with.

Seeing Red said...

this is the post by change60 at Insty:

The Euro's were squeezed by Trump. On one side was his NATO threats to Euro's security and on the other side were trade losses to the EU. Germany tried to form an Anti-USA trade bloc with China a couple weeks ago, but China didn't flinch and demanded too much in return. Trump explicitly linked NATO to trade. The EU nations most threatened by Russia would veto any German tricks, so the EU was split and not united.

The EU had no choice, Trump knew this many years ago and now the EU knows.

China is already dealing with economic turmoil from the tariffs and having currency and loan problems. This stuff goes sour real fast in China if Trump goes $500 billion on China. Look for a Chinese envoy to arrive in the US soon.

tcrosse said...

The Market seems happy about it. Must be False Consciousness.

tim in vermont said...

Oh Good. Another round of "let's praise Trump for solving the problem he created in the first place." And I bet we end up with a worse trade situation than we started with.

OK, that’s your bet. Time will tell, won’t it?

gilbar said...

This is SUCH BULLSH*T!
i listened to NPR this morning; and they had on An EXPERT, who said that this sort of this Would Take Years and that the US MUST UNILATERALLY make concessions Now!

Just WHO THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE?
NPR?
OR the Facts?

NPR has explained to me, Time and Time Again; that they are THE SOURCE for NEWS
SO, your stupid FACTS better go talk to NPR, 'cause they say this could NEVER Happen

The Vault Dweller said...

I guess it is still just a preliminary deal so we'll see how it turns out. But it at least sounds promising. The only thing I have heard was excluded is automobiles. But I know that there had been a lot of barriers regarding agricultural products from the US being sold into the EU. So that might help some rural states. Another market for LNG sounds good too. Now maybe those EU countries can get some of those sweet, sweet carbon emissions reductions we have been experiencing by switching from Coal to LNG.

A Deal with the EU also strengthens our bargaining power with China, which was already pretty strong considering how much we buy from them.

Francisco D said...

The stock market had a good day based on this news. Imagine the market growth when we finalize fairer trade deals.

Good news seems to give a lot of butthurt to the usual suspects. Maybe we need a severe recession to make them happy.

During the Watergate era, I recall a few pundits saying that Nixon would be impeached because of the economy, not so much because of Watergate. There is hope for LLR Chuck and his DNC/MSM allies.

Comanche Voter said...

Well until a deal is finally a deal and all tied up in a nice red ribbon, it's mostly written in water. You see a lot of things that are still written in water--North Korea, Nato nations paying their fair share, tariff rates up then down--just to name a few. But when the water seems to flow mostly in the direction that Trump wants, you have to concede--not that Rachel Maddow ever would--that Trump seems to be on to something. You put your money down on someone who's having a a hot streak--and Trump seems to be having one right now.

walter said...

Shorter Chuck:
The only trade problem was/is Truuuuump!'s. And any reprieve is temporary. Because Truuuuump!
In a sideways concession of sorts: "He didn't build that!"
Well, perhaps in a sense..he has since the campaign highlighted delegation.
Don't worry, it could still fail (Yay!)..and you can continue to stick your https://www.amazon.com/Karma-Keepers-Donald-Voodoo-included/dp/B01MYAGJIO


buwaya said...

Its a downer day for the DAX and FTSE (I have money in these, not a good investment these last six months) but they closed before the news.
Lets see tomorrow.

Sal said...

i listened to NPR this morning; and they had on An EXPERT..

There are now millions of middle-age white women who think they're pretty well-informed on international trade issues. That's all that matters.

wildswan said...

Thing is, I'm absolutely certain that Trump wants a better trade deal - but he's not in a hurry for it, he hasn't put his prestige on the line to say he will emerge on Day X Year Y with a deal inked in and signed. He simply is working for it. So I think we will get a better trade deal - sometime. It will be after our trade partners who have been gaming our system and our good will and cheating in various ways realize that that won't work, anymore. I can wait. They know they're doing it, we know they're doing it, they know we know and we want change. And we'll get it. And China is trying to hurt the farmers to keep their general cheating going so that is something that has to be met and it is being met. Then we'll get to the deal. Only MSM reporters, virgins on the world scene, are hysterically denying it all - "No, NO, NOOOO! don't! tell! me! THAT! actually! happens!" And pop another blue pill.

Narayanan Subramanian said...

Once they let you get on first base you can grab the pussies anytime.

gilbar said...

that would be stealing 3rd

David Begley said...

Trump cures cancer. For now. Oncologists out of work.

Chuck said...

walter said...
Shorter Chuck:
The only trade problem was/is Truuuuump!'s. And any reprieve is temporary. Because Truuuuump!
In a sideways concession of sorts: "He didn't build that!"
Well, perhaps in a sense..he has since the campaign highlighted delegation.
Don't worry, it could still fail (Yay!)..and you can continue to stick your https://www.amazon.com/Karma-Keepers-Donald-Voodoo-included/dp/B01MYAGJIO


I didn't say any of that. I didn't say that any of this was even "bad news." That's Althouse, freaking out about what she thinks anti-Trumpers will say.

All that I did was to ask what, specifically, is the "good news" in any of this? It is good, that things are not turning out to be as disastrous as some feared, and that we have agreed to talk with Europe. But there's no deal. Europe has conceded nothing in the longer term. We haven't got anything yet, save for a delay in what would have been catastrophic for many businesses.

Has anybody yet mentioned the fact that Trump is now going to pump $12 billion of American taxpayers' money into farming businesses that have been crippled by the Chinese tariff war? How did the Master Persuader figure that one out?

Michael K said...

Max Boot is really gone crazy.

That's about Russia but it gives an example of these people who think that nothing Trump does is of value and it is evil, no matter what it is.

Chuck said...

Sal said...
"i listened to NPR this morning; and they had on An EXPERT.."

There are now millions of middle-age white women who think they're pretty well-informed on international trade issues. That's all that matters.


They had on Senator Ben Sasse (R) of Nebraska, who said that Trump's tariff war was "cutting the legs out from under farmers and White House's 'plan' is to spend $12 billion on gold crutches."

Michael K said...

Chuck is conveniently showing us an example of the crazy thinking that Boot has.

Michael K said...

Sasse is a NeverTrumper who is almost as crazy as Chuck.

Narayanan Subramanian said...

@seeingred
Were they alone alone in private private talks for two hours ... Horrors.

Did Trump even have briefing book?

Seeing Red said...

So there’s a potential $500 billion trade war and Chuck asks about 2.5% of it?

Do you think, Chuck, that we can make up $12 billion once it’s settled? Or is the US out $12 billion?

Seeing Red said...

Personally I could find $12 billion in the budget to cover this, they wouldn’t like it, but it can be done.

gilbar said...

i listened to NPR this morning; and they had on An EXPERT.."
They had on Senator Ben Sasse (R) of Nebraska,

Yes Chuck; that's who it was; that's why i JOKINGLY called him , An EXPERT.

How old is Your Family Farm Chuck? My Great Grandfather bought ours from his dad around 1880.

Seeing Red said...

If the crutches are gold, they’re spending too much.

Seeing Red said...

Do you, Chuck, think that $12 billion could be made up thru the EU and/or NAFTA negotiation?

walter said...

Good grief, Chuck.
Yes..I completely mis-characterized you.
It seems everyone does.
"Interesting"
(only 3 of those dolls left)

Darrell said...

They had on Senator Ben Sasse (R) of Nebraska, who said that Trump's tariff war was "cutting the legs out from under farmers and White House's 'plan' is to spend $12 billion on gold crutches."

Which goes to show that you and Ben Sasse are assholes and liars. The tariffs haven't been around long enough to cause any damage. And Canada was already placing 200 and 300% tariffs on American diary products--which means that they weren't selling in Canada anyway. The US is the market maker for the world--the only country that can afford to buy all the goods. There is no way we are going to lose a trade war. Our current trade deficits are money we are losing every year. We are not going to do any worse than that. I guarantee that all our foreign trade partners will fold when they see Trump is serious. What our feckless politicians don't want you to see is how easy it is calling the tunes when you're the giant in Lilliput. You'll know how incompetent they were all these years. How they didn't give a shit when it came to US businesses and taxpayers. They were the ones giving taxpayers' money away.

Eric said...

Oh no, can it possibly be that Trump isn't as stupid as we are supposed to believe?

Seeing Red said...

Narayanan Subramanian

He had binders full of .......

FullMoon said...

I'm all in favor of free trade with developed countries that enforce worker safety and environmental laws. There can be no free trade with third world countries. It was always a plan to boost corporate profits at the expense of working people.

Yep. Let the poor who are working in unsafe conditions and messin' up the environment starve instead of working for pennies just to feed their ugly faces..

That'll teach 'em. The manufacturers and governments bound to change overnight with all those dead bodies to deal with.

FullMoon said...

Ya know, I am getting kinda tired of all these exciting terrible things that will happen in the future.
Something bad will def happen , someday.

Crimso said...

"I survived Net Neutrality and The Trade War. What else was supposed to kill us all?"

Y2K, which was predicted by the Mayans but fizzled. The crash of Facebook stock, still a fluid situation. All of that plastic in the Pacific. This is not an exhaustive list.

Oh, global warming. Also predicted by the Mayans.

Pookie Number 2 said...

Oh no, can it possibly be that Trump isn't as stupid as we are supposed to believe?

He’s only a billionaire who has succeeded in real estate, entertainment, and politics.

It’s not like he’s ever been a frustrated and dishonest lawyer in Michigan or anything.

Hagar said...

I do not think we are going to see "zero tariffs," but there will be adjustments and the net effect should be a "fairer" deal for the United States in the end.
That end may be some time acoming though.

William said...

I would trust Trump to negotiate a better trade deal than Hillary. Duh.......That said, all this talk of trade wars make me nervous. Intelligent men of good will with no important class, religious, or ideological differences blundered into WWI and kept the conflict going for four years. Shit happens.

Hagar said...

Clip on the evening news tonight with Chuck Schumer calling the Farm Program (with Trump's 12 billion dollar temporary support for our farmers to weather the next few months of "negotiating") a Soviet style economic program.
That is pretty rich coming from Schumer and considering that the Farm Program dates from FDR's "100 Days" and has since been considered holy ground for all right-thinking Democrats - or rather "left-thinking"?

Hagar said...

On the other hand, maybe we should worry. After all, it is an old saying that there is nothing as permanent as a temporary government program!

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

Me. last night, about President Trump:

He seems to think tariffs are stupid and counterproductive but if other countries want to fuck with us via tariffs, he is not afraid to fuck right back.

And since our economy is the big dog in the world, who do you think is going to win this pissing contest?


I fully expected that Europe would cave. I figured it would be a partial cave, taking a lot of time and a lot of pissing and moaning. I never expected it would happen so fast.

I guess Europe realized that President Trump was serious about zero tariffs and trade restrictions. Once they did, they figured they might as well get the pain over quickly.

Thinking about the $12bn today, before I heard this announcement, I thought that President Trump never figured on spending it. He would spend it if he had to, it wasn't a bluff. But I think he figured the Europeans would cave before he actually had to cut any checks.

I think the Europeans saw this, realized that he would spend this and more if need be, and saw there was no way to win.

Soooooooo much winning. Not tired yet. Not of winning anyway. I have been working a lot this year which is nice and after a couple of 5 day weeks in a row, with two more coming, I am kind of tuckered out. But not complaining!

John Henry

gilbar said...

Y2K, which was predicted by the Mayans but fizzled. The crash of Facebook stock, still a fluid situation. All of that plastic in the Pacific. This is not an exhaustive list.
Oh, global warming. Also predicted by the Mayan


And the Blood Moon! Don't Forget the BLood Moon!

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

Thinking more about tariffs today, before the Eurocave, I realized that the so called trade war we were talking about last night was completely different from anything in the past.

Traditionally, going back 100s of years, countries would put tariffs to keep imports out. In the traditional trade war, country A would put a 10% tariff on country B's goods. Country B would get upset and put a 15% tariff on country A. In other words, each country would try to outdo the other. The goal was more revenue and/or protection via tariffs.

It is probably impossible to win this kind of trade war.

President Trump has turned this on its head but going for zero tariffs.

It is probably impossible to lose this kind.

John Henry

gilbar said...

Yep. Let the poor who are working in unsafe conditions and messin' up the environment starve instead of working for pennies just to feed their ugly faces.. this has The Added Benefit of reducing CO2 Production! If only we can Kill ALL the People! Then things will be environmentally perfect! (except for all the rotting corpses)

pacwest said...

"We haven't got anything yet,"

Good Lord. President Trump is trying to tackle national problems that have been plaguing us for decades. Against multiple headwinds, and is showing signs of succeeding, and this is your response. It's no wonder Drago finds you such an easy target. Just think of how much more he could accomplish with a modicum of support from the nevertrumpers, let alone if the looney left could rein themselves in for just a moment.

C'mon over to the dark side Chuck. It'll only hurt for a little bit.

FullMoon said...

this has The Added Benefit of reducing CO2 Production! If only we can Kill ALL the People!

Casual conversation with a doctor regarding the flu: "God's way of thinning the herd"

M Jordan said...

Trump.

Phil 3:14 said...

I wonder if Trump said “Listen, Vlad wants to jack up your gas prices but I think I can convince to do otherwise. But you gotta make my efforts worthwhile. What can you give me?”

Phil 3:14 said...

Here’s what I don’t get, If you all think Chuck is an idiot and a buffoon, whiy do you bother responding.

I think you like having the foil because frankly the amen choir gets a little boring after awhile.

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

Blogger Phil 3:14 said...

I wonder if Trump said “Listen, Vlad wants to jack up your gas prices but I think I can convince to do otherwise. But you gotta make my efforts worthwhile. What can you give me?”

Always a possibility but perhaps he also said "Look, we have more oil and natural gas than we know what to do with. If you commit to zero tariff as well as buying lots and lots of energy from us, we can work out a bulk discount."

John Henry

Pookie Number 2 said...

I think you like having the foil because frankly the amen choir gets a little boring after awhile.

Can’t speak for anyone else, but I would love an intelligent argument. Chuck’s stampy-footed mendacious drivel doesn’t actually qualify.

Paul said...

Give the Democrats time and they will do their best to find a way to sabotage the whole deal.

n.n said...

European nations and America have labor and environmental standards parity. There should be no need for tariffs, explicit or other otherwise, in order to equalize "free trade". China, on the other hand, has slave-like labor, and environmental regulations that only the "green" industry could like. Mexico is only marginally better, and exports their native population to America. A practice favored by both parties and Femen (karmic irony).

Jon Ericson said...

Here’s what I don’t get, If you all think Chuck is an idiot and a buffoon, whiy do you bother responding.
It's like engaging Rachel Maddow in the comment section.
He does such a good Imitation of her.

Gahrie said...

Here’s what I don’t get, If you all think Chuck is an idiot and a buffoon, whiy do you bother responding.

We have to provide some evidence for the poor graduate students reading this blog fifty years from now for research that we weren't all idiots and assholes.

Francisco D said...

"I think you like having the foil because frankly the amen choir gets a little boring after awhile."

I disagree. While many of us seem to think alike, that is mostly in shared disdain for trolls and Big Government types. If we didn't focus on them, you would see more disagreement. It's still there but it's subtle.

My experience is that conservatives/libertarians/centrists are MUCH more willing to disagree than the leftists are with each other. The leftists see it as a betrayal of the tribe. Conservatives see it as way to clarify and express individualized thinking.

Think about it and apply it to your own experiences.

D 2 said...

Following to Gahrie's comment, I would be impressed if, in 20 years, if you were presented with a compendium of all the comments made by yourself (or reader X) on blogs, twitter etc, would you note the consistency or inconsistency of their statements over, say 10/20 years .

People change, people learn, people are going to be selectively self-serving in their argument on occasion, yes. But this internet experiment might be interesting if you could show to person X (or yourself) how the whipsaw hypocrisy of our times has likely led to such a low trust low tolerance culture.

Big Mike said...

@Chuck, the day may yet come when you're right and Trump is wrong, but so far his policies and initiatives are scoring at a mind-boggling 100%. Is there a point where you start to question your assumptions and the assumptions of whatever bubble you are embedded in? Because if I was zero for everything the way you've been, I'd revisit my assumptions, pronto.

Gahrie said...

@Chuck, the day may yet come when you're right and Trump is wrong, but so far his policies and initiatives are scoring at a mind-boggling 100%.

Doesn't matter. Trump could objectively be the best president we've ever had, and Chuckles will never forgive him for taking power away from his buddies. He expresses his anger by obsessing on Trump's vulgarity and attacking Trump's integrity....just as he and his buddies and his Leftist allies have done to everyone who threatens them. Go back and read what the GOP Establishment was saying about Reagan before he won the nomination. They hated him more than the Democrats did. They rejected Cruz, and so we got Trump.

Jon Ericson said...

He's got the Egg McMuffin fever.
(wherever that dough comes from)

Jon Ericson said...

Buck buck BUCKS!
(trillions)

Jon Ericson said...

MMM?

Jon Ericson said...

Crash Test Dummy.

Jon Ericson said...

MMMasters of the Universe.

Jon Ericson said...

And their MMMinions.

Jon Ericson said...

The vigorish is substantial.

Jon Ericson said...

Max Boot's cut must be eye-watering.

Jon Ericson said...

Of course that is contingent on President Trump's demise.

Big Mike said...

@Gahrie, don't give him an out.

Narayanan Subramanian said...

Guys ... Thanks for info
/ didn't know Chuck was Rhodes scholar/

buwaya said...

Hang Seng (HSI) is hurting me.
Looks like some concern about Chinese terms of trade, which Trump does indeed threaten.

Yes, to a degree I am hedged against Trump.
As well as against Trumps downfall.

There is no way in a hedged position to have your cake and eat it too. Or not much of it anyway.

Aussie Pundit said...

If tariffs are a bad thing, how come China is so successful? The rise of china proves the free-traders wrong.

Jon Ericson said...

buwaya:
Please keep us abreast of these international paroxysms.
If you have the bandwidth.
Your analyses and insights are half the reason I read here.

He reads much;
He is a great observer, and he looks
Quite through the deeds of men.

Jon Ericson said...

The other half is tcrosse.

Narayanan Subramanian said...

A weapon is a tool to help your enemy change his mind.
.... Lois McMaster Bujold

Narayanan Subramanian said...

China made German Auto industry commit to making cars in China (then no tariffs). Xi was all Trumpian.

Extrapolate and discuss.

Jon Ericson said...

Commodores - Nightshift

TheDopeFromHope said...

On this trade deal, the corrupt liberal media will be beside itself, very distraught, but they'll rally and come up with some explanation why this is bad news. And after the BEA releases the 2nd quarter GDP number tomorrow (4%? $4.5? >5%?), heads will really explode. The braindead Pelosi et al. will say that this is (somehow) terrible for the American worker, crumbs, etc. The gaslighting of America continues.

Remember: if it's good for the American people, it's bad for Democrats.

Jon Ericson said...

Good Morning Good Morning Good Morning.

FIDO said...

Twelve billion is less than a penny in the budget, percentage wise.

Medicare can't account for ten times that number. Does Chuck scream about that (or any OTHER Republican issue)


NOOOOOOOP(op)E

Only Trump whining.

The men who can run more than their checkbook in Finance...they seem to like this motion. Perhaps people who know far more than a supposed lawyer in wherever the hell.

(Chuck...you know if you posted more billable hours and posted less Trump Hate...you too might have an economic recovery. Just saying)

While I am chary of Wall Street, they have to know more than Chuck (faint praise indeed) and they CERTAINLY know more than the Marxo-Anarchist at NPR.

Or more to the point: The Faith of Wall Street means more to my bottom line and the World Economy than all the Vapors of Chuck.

FIDO said...

I would trust Trump to negotiate a better trade deal than Hillary.

I think this comes down to gender and class and even appearance.

Hillary was a middle class, penny pinching poorly dressed ugly smart girl. No one 'gave' her anything so she always ALWAYS looked out for what anything got HER.

So sell a quarter of American Uranium so she can line her pockets? SURE!

Let Haitians suffer so her minions can feast on the NGO Agency Funds? Tuck in a napkin and mind the elbows!

Trump was born of money. He only cares about winning. As a MAN, he expects to make his own money. Less 'Pay For Play'

Yup. Hillary is a Political Prostitute.

If she ran this negotiation, she'd whine and bitch enough to get a cushy vacation in a Schloss for her and Huma to cuddle up together with a few million in her pocket and then she'd drop it.

She got hers.

Trump, that narcissistic arrogant bully, wants to win the point!

Unknown said...

No, this isn't "a trade battle that began with Mr. Trump’s tariffs on European steel and aluminum exports and threatened to escalate to its automobiles." This is a trade battle that the EU started decades ago. We finally have a President that responded, is doing something about it. High tariffs on American exports to the EU would have continued on their merry way if President Trump hadn't replied in kind. And his strategy/negotiation worked, as he knew it would.

tim maguire said...

This makes me want to search the Times archives for "Mr. Obama."

Rick said...

The rise of china proves the free-traders wrong.

No it doesn't. China is improving economically because they started at an unbelievably low point. Improvement would be occurring under any economic framework other than Mao's strict and insane central control which so retarded their growth in the first place.

tim maguire said...

Rick said...
The rise of china proves the free-traders wrong.

No it doesn't.


China practices mercantilism. Which they can get away with only because the capitalist countries are too blinded by "1.3 billion customers" to make them follow the same rules everyone else does.

Rusty said...

I think it would be a good idea if from now on we just ignore Chuck. He's always a distraction to the subject at hand and adds nothing to the conversation. He simply spews the days prog. talking points.

n.n said...
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n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

So-called "free trade" was a good way to extract resources from other nations, profit from labor (e.g. slavery) and environmental (e.g. "green" waste) arbitrage, and remove value from our own. It's a means to progress the 1% and equalizes the rest. It is in practice, if not in principle, anti-capitalist, as it is effectively a monopolistic practice and often results in monopoly formation.

Comanche Voter said...

Out here in the Los Angeles Times bubble it's "Europe Declares Truce in Trade War".

Trump is sort of a human Heisenburg Principle---he disrupts things and creates movement and uncertainty. Not all movement is good--some is bad--but stasis represents lack of progress. The "Frankenfood" movement in Europe has closed much of the European market to US agricultural products--including soybeans. That will change.

I don't know where all this will end up--other than in a different place than it is now. It makes for an interesting show.

Critter said...

I read Chuck’s posts. My Trump reservations are confirmed....Saturday night at 7:30. I understand they serve a very good steak.

I won’t know what to think of the EU trade news until I hear from the rising star future of the Democrat Party. But I hear she’s kinda busy working two jobs to reduce the unemployment rate.

A few $Billions in tax relief, a few $Billions in tariff relief, and pretty soon you’re talking about bread crumbs that even Nancy Pelosi can see.

Freder Frederson said...

The "Frankenfood" movement in Europe has closed much of the European market to US agricultural products--including soybeans. That will change.

No it won't. Trump's claim that Europe will buy "a lot of soybeans" is pure bullshit. There might be a minor uptick in soybean exports to Europe but it will be insignificant. Europe just doesn't use many soybeans. With a population 2/3 larger than ours they use about 1/3 the soybeans we do. And if Juncker told Trump that it was probably because he was drunk. He sure as hell didn't check with the EU ag policy people before he made the commitment (if Trump just didn't make it up).

Jim at said...

Trump making headway against the EU on trade barriers? Freder bitches about soybeans.

Seems about right.

Freder Frederson said...

Trump making headway against the EU on trade barriers?

I'm not bitching about soybeans per se. I am just pointing out that Trump is once again lying, or at the very least exaggerating.

I'll bet you that U.S. soybean exports to the EU in the next year increase by less than 5%. Bookmark this and get back to me in a year so I can say "I told you so".

Rusty said...


Commander Freder. Soybeans are a bigger deal to China than the EU.

Michael K said...

Whoever posted a comment last week that Nork repatriation of US Korea War dead remains had stopped, was either lying or ill informed. It wasn't you Freder, was it ?