From "From Truman to Trump, Queen Elizabeth Has Met 12 U.S. Presidents," in which the NYT is actually quite mild toward Trump. I noticed, "Even for a monarch who has encountered her fair share of presidents, Mr. Trump is probably the most disruptive American leader she has met." Probably??? Who's the competition? Trump is also the most disruptive President including the ones QE has not met. He's Disruptiveness Personified.
Here's the video of the Queen's slapstick approach to walking with Trump:
This is hilarious. The Queen acting like she’s training one of her dogs as Trump struggles to master the art of walking. pic.twitter.com/M7tNwJFlOX— SimonNRicketts (@SimonNRicketts) July 13, 2018
What the hell is she doing?! He's walking slowly and normally. She's being weird. I think it has to do with Scotland (the homeland of Trump's mother).
By the way, have you seen these intensely gorgeous new movie posters?
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109 comments:
"Born to Fight"/"Born to Power"
The highest ranking person always stands to the left.
The Queen should have been on the left, as it is her country.
The protocol comes from days of yore where knights had to be free to draw their sword.
Can you imagine the Queen drawing her sword, and clunking numb-nuts on the head?
I'd sure like to know what she has in the purse. I bet it is Novichok.
Perhaps Trump was preoccupied imagining putting our army in those puffda hats.
We had enough bowing and scraping with Trump's predecessor. I thought the issue was settled 236 years ago.
England has a couple of years before Charles makes the Royal Family into the Disneyland act the Queen has avoided.
She is the last scrap of dignity the Royal Family has.
Protocol requires an exchange of gluons.
oh, for the Good Old Days, when Proper Stuart Kings and Queens ruled Britain; as GOD Intended. Want to see the cause of Trouble? Look at your german 'King'
Remember the '45!
The Queen is an old, old woman. She was Queen when Truman was president!
And our President doesn't bow to royalty. We won the war. We are no longer the subjects of the British Crown.
The pics are not "intensely beautiful."
They appeal to you because the pics paste the persona of the New Feminist Woman onto historical figures.
You adore Soviet Realism in the service of feminism.
The pics are a representation of the contemporary, featureless, sexless, stern feminist woman as office worker.
Those certainly are beautiful posters. I look forward to see the movie.
After what Obama did in his pathetic eight years... Trump bows to NO ONE!
I think when the Queen croaks, Charles will abdicate, and pass the baton.
The EU colony won't need another geezer running the castle.
As I said yesterday, I watched the whole thing and Trump followed protocol. The Queen waived the bow by extending her hand when he first came into sight. Protocol says you immediately shake her hand when offered. As for the walking/moving ahead part, that is splitting hairs. Monarchs rarely reach her age and you could she she was doing what is best described as meandering. He was attempting to follow her pace and lead. It was not choreographed and rehearsed in advanced, you know. At her age such ceremonies should be pared down to accommodate her condition and abilities. It should have been a direct, straight line walk over to the other dignitaries.
This looks like when you are trying to walk around one of those little old lady beetle groups in the Mall. They are shuffling along at the speed of sludge and taking up the entire walkway and who suddenly stop for no known reason.
Your options are to shuffle along behind them until you can get a passing opportunity. Or to weave back and forth behind them in a desperate effort to get around and be able to walk at a normal pace.
Shuffle, shuffle, dodge, weave, stop, oops, shuffle, shuffle, open space.....sprint to freedom.
That movie looks better than, "Ant Man and Wasp."
It's entertaining to read the tweets on that thread. All of these English leftists - normally not known for Royalist sentiments - are suddenly terribly concerned with proper protocol and tradition. Why, that loud, crass Yank, who doesn't show deference to our beloved monarch!
President Barack Obama was proposing a toast to the Queen at Buckingham Palace last night, when things went a bit awry. As he put down his note cards and raised a glass, declaring, "To her majesty the Queen," the orchestra took it as its cue to start playing God Save the Queen.
While guests stood solemnly as the anthem played on, Mr. Obama, who wasn't finished speaking, resumed his toast as though the song was mere background music.
It was all that slow-jamming on Jimmy Fallon that fucked him up.
Ditto to those who pointed out that our president, or any other us citizen, should EVER bow to any foreign pol or royal.
Ever.
We are citizens not subjects.
John Henry
Who would have thought the Tump could turn the left into ardent moanarchists?
Queen Hillary. Born to Fight. Born to Power.
She will overcome. Most votes!
I recently saw the Nebraska voter registration form. All you need is either a state id card or driver's license and swear that you are a US citizen. That's it. The applicant's signature isn't even notarized. Ripe for fraud.
That's how the Dems lost. They didn't register to vote enough illegal aliens in WI, PA, NC and the other swing states. They won't make that mistake a second time.
And no evidence? No one has investigated. Mueller and his band of 13 Angry Dems should investigate voter fraud and start indicting people there. People that will show up and defend.
So here's Trump, about to troop the line of the Royal Scots, and listening to the US Air Force song, just as it gets to the point associated with "Nothing can stop the U.S. Air Force!". Now that is MAGA! Why not stop and savor the moment?
Yep, in that poster Margot Robbie certainly displays all of the "intense gorgeousness" conventionally ascribed to Queen Elizabeth.
No mutant SUPER RATS were harmed in the making of this film.
Is 8 years a long running protocol?
The poster doesn't look beautiful to me. It looks boring long-suffering psychological drama.
Margot Robbie gets the smallpox treatment in the movie, complete with hair falling out.
https://hollywoodlife.com/2018/07/12/margot-robbie-queen-elizabeth-transformation-mary-queen-of-scots-photos-video/
I'll bet that Trump didn't give her an iPod filled with his speeches either.
Is the NYT insane? Protocol doesn’t require even ordinary American citizens to bow or curtsy to monarchy, and it certainly doesn’t require heads of state to do so. If Trump had bowed, you can be sure the Times would have excoriated him as clueless and ignorant of diplomatic protocol.
If he’d curtsied, on the other hand. . . .
CNN had a British fop on TV who was some kind of royal expert. He was sniffing and bitching.
If it wasn't for airports, CNN would have no audience. As it is, HGTV has better numbers than CNN.
"Trump is also the most disruptive President including the ones QE has not met."
Lincoln was more disruptive. So was Washington, but not while he was President.
So an Irishwoman is cast as the Scottish queen, and an Australian as the English one. The world has gone mad.
those posters do make me want too see the film. Will the Irish Scottish accent be better than the Australian English accent?
The world has gone mad
Especially since the story's been told a hundred times already. What's next? Miley Cyrus as Mary and Justin Beiber as Elizabeth I?
I’m not going to bother following the link because as far as the Times is concerned, it doesn’t matter what Donald Trump does, it’s wrong. If he found a cure for cancer, think of all the oncologists he’s put out of work, plus millennials who will have to wait that much longer for their inheritance. If something he did produced world peace, think of the soldiers and sailors out of a job!
One does get tired of the crap.
readering:
The accents have been leveled between the 3 kingdoms due to the influx of continental European labor. Last visit, in both Dublin and Edinburgh, our server or hotel desk staff were likely to be from eastern Europe rather than locals, which changes pronunciations, I think. Where in the 1980s I had trouble with communication, today, no troubles at all. Plus, the exchange rate was nice. Nothing to lose one's head about....
It would be cool if they cast Michelle Gomez, a True Scotswoman, as Mary. She'd be a riot.
She is a queen. She is not our queen.
Trump should bow to no monarch.
No American should bow to any monarch.
“Protocol says you should bow.”
Nuts.
I assume that @Althouse was being ironic in calling Trump the most disruptive US President. Even if we consider only those that Queen E2 has met, what about the President who was caught getting blowjobs in the Oval Office and got impeached for lying? What about the President who was forced to resign his office when it turned out that he was, indeed, "a crook"? What about the President who decided that if Congress wouldn't pass the laws he wanted, he'd rule by decree?
"Trump did what?"
"Trump failed to do what?"
Strong case of the vapors coming on. Good that that six-pack is right here next to my chair.
I didn't say I'd want to see the movie or that I like historical movies where actresses are made up to look appealing by present-day standards. I just think the posters as posters are very striking.
what protocol did George Washington abide by?
Rebel Wilson to play Queen Victoria ... Would be worth it.
I assume that @Althouse was being ironic in calling Trump the most disruptive US President.
No, I agree that he is the president that Schumpeter would have predicted.
According to Christopher Freeman (2009), a scholar who devoted much time researching Schumpeter's work: "the central point of his whole life work [is]: that capitalism can only be understood as an evolutionary process of continuous innovation and 'creative destruction.
Trump is the capitalist come to politics.
Lizzie has her handbag ... Calls for SNL skit when she whacks Donnie with it.
We can then find out what she keeps in it.
Possible concrete brick.
or that I like historical movies where actresses are made up to look appealing by present-day standards.
The best representation of Elizabeth I was in the movie, "The Sea Hawk, where Flora Robson played her.
Bette Davis played her in "The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex," but I like the Robson portrayal better.
Remember the '45!
7/14/18, 8:41 AM
Remember the 45th!
In other ways, the Trumps avoided breaching protocol.
I eagerly await fivethirtyeight.com's graphic of Trump's weighted-average missteps compared with those of past Presidents and world leaders.
These were the people eager to get Hillary elected so they could bow and courtesy upon meeting her.
It's such a small step from "we should be governed by a group of really smart people", to "everyone bow to the ruler!"
Whatever their policy positions at any one moment, the guiding theme is the centralization of power.
Robson and Davis both so good they did it twice.
And mary and Elizabeth probably both spoke French.
How can it remotely be proper protocol for one head of a sovereign state to bow to another?
And Elizabeth not exactly born to power. Third in line sibling (not to mention Lady Jane Gray).
Neither 16th cent. queen would have appeared in public bare-headed, even indoors.
I think it's rude Trump's getting no more than tea.
Actually, Elizabeth Tudor was the heir when she was born, IIRC. Mary was a bastard before she was a bitch.
The Queen is the most famous person I have ever seen. I was working temporarily at one of my company's plants in England in 1980, in a small town on the edge of the Lake District. I had been there 6 weeks and on the day I was leaving for my train to London she and Prince Phillip came to open an arts center in the town. I waited in the cold and snow for over two hours until they arrived. After the ribbon cutting, on the way out of the new center, she stopped and talked to the woman standing next to me. I shot up an entire roll of Ektachrome while she was there, just 4-5 feet from me at the most. I think those slides are in a box in the attic. Need to get them out and scan them. A photographer from the local paper took pictures as she was talking to the woman and I was in one of them. 30 years later she came back again for another event and the paper ran the same picture again from her 1980 visit in a special edition. A friend who still lived there sent me a copy.
Historical women in power were depicted much like that, and there were lots of them.
Contemporary portraits of Elizabeth I for instance.
We can imagine they were “feminists” only by misunderstanding.
In western art this sort of “feminist” depiction goes back to classical times at least.
I think it's rude Trump's getting no more than tea.
He doesn't drink alcohol, so a refreshing glass of Barr's Irn-Bru would have been nice for his Scottish side.
Americans especially the President DO NOT bow. They are heads of state and equal.
We DO NOT dip our flag either.
Ronnie blew protocol too when Elizabeth visited. He allowed Nancy to go ahead of him because that’s what gentlemen do. She was supposed to stay behind and walk with Philip.
I have a Maria Theresa thaler (an 18th century Austrian coin, about the size of an old silver dollar) with the old empress in profile. Turn her face on and she would seem much like those portraits. These thalers were used until modern times in East Africa, as trade money, and new copies were made by the Austrian mints for 200 years for that market. The users were mesmerized, apparently, by the implied semi-supernatural authority of the woman on the coin.
@DBQ- I'm about 15 years from being part of the shuffle of old ladies in the mall. Until then, I'm the pushy one dogging them, waiting to sprint to freedom.
Re; Mary of Scotland. In the mid twentieth century it was popular for English artistic, progressive types to convert to Catholicism. Evelyn Waugh, for example. They did this, at least in part, to show their contempt for bourgeois English intellectual culture.
After the weird theme of "Catholic imagination" at the Met this year, I can see how the prog Left could embrace & befoul Catholicism. A progressive Catholicism would be all gothic costuming & with statues of bleeding Jesus everywhere, and daily burnings of heretic Episcopalians, Jews, & bland, evangelical Republicans.
She is old enough to give RBG hope. I’d give her a pass on walking funny even if normal walking near her stands out.
Wistful Irish girls really nail those English aristocrat roles. Michelle Dockery was one of the best things about Downton Abbey. Claire Foy became a star in the Elizabeth II role. That's what Irish girls wist for--an aristocratic position. I'm sure Ronan will do a fine job as Mary, Queen of Scots........I wish she'd keep her Irish accent though. She's quite lovable and endearing with her Irish accent. If Sean Connery can keep his Scotch accent while playing a Russian submarine captain, why can't Ronan keep her Irish one in this role. This smacks of sexism......Mary was actually the granddaughter of Queen Isabella of Spain. Shouldn't this role go to a Spanish actress who are so underrepresented in our current films? I think Michelle Rodriguez could bring a lot of grit to the role.
It is nearly impossible to walk behind someone that much older than you after the age of 40 or so. I walk in front of my parents (both 70+) all the time even when I try not to.
Also, the bowing and curtsy shit is for subjects of the Queen. It is silly when true foreigners (those from non-Commonwealth countries) do it at Wimbledon.
I caught a glimpse of HMQ in Glasgow in 1969. She and her Mum were being driven down the street in the Daimler, and the locals were eating it up. It was explained to me that her Mum is the one the Scots turn out for, being a Scot herself. They were less enthusiastic for the Englishwoman.
So an Irishwoman is cast as the Scottish queen, and an Australian as the English one. The world has gone mad.
Well, we currently have a German playing the Queen of England, so...
Elizabeth Tudor was the heir when she was born
Only under another of Henry Rex's made up rules in his murderous zest for power would the heir come from the king's whore mistress, rather than the rightful Queen Catherine -- and everyone in the country knew it at the time.
In a fascinating cross-genre twist, as Mary is being led to the chopping block she rips off her Elizabethan gown to reveal she is actually Harley Quinn, aka Puddin', and has gone back in time to make things right. She then gives Elizabeth 40 whacks with her Louisville Slugger and ascends the throne.
I can't wait for the DVD.
I like the posters. Mary Stuart was, in fact, strikingly beautiful, quite tall (taller than most of the men in her court), a lively (i.e. "scandalous:) dancer, and a vivacious flirt. She was beautiful by the standards of any day and I don't know whether she was fluent in French but she certainly would known Scots Gaelic and Elizabethan English which was similar in sound to the present-day backwoods Maine accent. Elizabeth was very jealous of her beauty and her abilities on the dance-floor. Humans today of whatever race and ethnicity look like their ancestors from prehistoric times, the only differences being superficial and cosmetic. There were people who would have been considered ugly by our standards and beautiful by our standards. Somewhere on the Eurasian Steppe some 10,000 years ago and more there was a kid, many kids, who looked just like me with my classic Celtic facial features. The same goes for all of us, each in our unique way.
Mary was actually the granddaughter of Queen Isabella of Spain
You are confusing your Marys. Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots was daughter of James Stuart and Mary of Guise. Isabella's granddaughter was daughter of Catherine of Aragon, rightful Queen and wife of Henry VIII. The two Marys were distant cousins though.
I think Queen is use to having people know what is expected of them and Trump is trying his best.
Drunk History's episode about Mary, Queen of Scots is my favourite of all Drunk History series.
https://vimeo.com/215981889
A scholar whose name I forget once commented that the remarkably well preserved body of the 19th Dynasty pharaoh Seti I bears an uncanny resemblance to Chief Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes. This may be indicative of Seti's Indo-European bloodlines (possibly of Mitannian origin). I've always thought that his son and successor, Rammesses II (who body is also very well preserved) was near dead-ringer for Wehrmacht Field Marshal Erich von Manstein.
Point of order: Out of seven pregnancies, Catherine of Aragon only had one child that survived infancy and that was Mary Tudor.
Edward didn't help matters by excluding both Mary and Elizabeth from the succession by royal fiat, naming Lady Jane Grey, the granddaughter of Henry VIII's younger sister as his heir - essentially signing her death warrant, because there was no way she would have enjoyed any popular support and precious little from those with power. But Protestants have always played fast and loose with succession.
Mary Tudor, daughter of the beloved Catherine of Aragon, became Mary I of England after the short reign of her brother and then the nine days' reign of Lady Jane Grey. Mary had no children of her own (her husband, Phillip, spending far too much time abroad and not sewing his seed in the Royal Soil.
So when Mary passed at age 42, there were slim pickings for succession, other than her half sister.
Things could have and should have gone a lot better. Philip should have given Mary a child. But Elizabeth was smart and had guts when it counted, so it worked out. For a while, anyway - until later rulers became total shits, lost credibility, and allowed Cromwell to wreck havoc.
That video is hilarious.
I'm not inclined to blame anyone for that awkward and hilarious dance they did, but if forced would pin it on the Queen. A few years ago she had a rather memorable run in and exchange with some otherwise well known British musicians.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1484722/The-Queen-Have-you-been-playing-long-Eric-Clapton-It-must-be-about-45-years-now.html
-sw
Wreak havoc. Whatever.
Philip should have given Mary a child.
There is a question of whether he gave her syphilis. There is some evidence that she had it.
Regarding protocol, there is a touching photograph of Elizabeth, Successor of Henry VIII, reaching out to Pope Benedict for help going down the stairs when he visited in 2010.
Had it been a Ball they might have been holding hands.
What does wayback machine show for past visits by Presidents?
Did Trump disrupt tradition ... Good on him.
In b4 someone mentions Mary Stuart. Her claim to the English throne was always a stretch.
What the hell is she doing?! He's walking slowly and normally.
Trump doesn't understand what happens when a foreign head of state reviews another nations troops. He's supposed to take the lead, review the troops, while HM the Queen walks slightly behind. The whole idea is that Queen is showing off her best turned out troops and Trump is supposed to show that he's appropriately impressed for politeness sake. A bit surprising, since Trump did go to military school.
Curtsy? That is so gendered.
I think Michelle Rodriguez could bring a lot of grit to the role.
How about Evita Castro-Cortez, aka Jenny from the Yorktown Heights?
I was disappointed Trump didn't offer the Queen his arm.
I remember when Nancy Reagan curtseyed to the Queen and the MSM went batchit bonkers over it.
They said AMERICANS DON'T CURTSY - THAT IS WHY WE FOUGHT A REVOLUTIONARY WAR!
Things could have and should have gone a lot better. Philip should have given Mary a child. But Elizabeth was smart and had guts when it counted, so it worked out. For a while, anyway - until later rulers became total shits, lost credibility, and allowed Cromwell to wreck havoc.
The feckless Stuarts were allowed to take over because Elizabeth I didn't have any children either.
Demography is destiny.
I have found that this is a very enlightening tutorial on Brits trying to navigate grassy areas...
Jason misstated history, saying: or a while, anyway - until later rulers became total shits, lost credibility, and allowed Cromwell to wreck havoc.
Hello!??
If you are Appointed by GOD, you can BE a total shit, and the people are REQUIRED to retain your credibility, otherwise; what? you're going to have a Total Dictatorship for a generation, and then Go Begging the true heir Charles the Second to come back, 'cause hope he forgives you? Then just a few score years later, you're going to Betray EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD AND PROPER, and reject the True King and replace him with a german 'king'? Way to Piss off GOD! Britain was (and IS) intended to ruled by its true rulers; the Scottish Kings (and Queens), NOT germans
the people are REQUIRED to retain your credibility, otherwise; what?
Charles II is reported to have said to his brother, the future James II, when James remonstrated with him because he went riding with no escort.
"Brother, there is not a man in England who would kill me to make you king."
James was deposed in "The Glorious Revolution of 1688." which installed William and Mary as co-regents.
I don't know whether she was fluent in French but she certainly would known Scots Gaelic
She was sent to France at 5, married the Dauphin, and became Queen of France for a year in her late teens, so she knew French. Not likely to know Gaelic.
My dad's USNA roommate met Princess Elizabeth on their first Midshipman cruise. It was the garden party at which her engagement was announced. He was top Mid their 1st class year but left the Navy for the oil business as soon as he could.
There are bows and there are bows. A gentleman always bows to a lady, f. ex., and generally makes a slight bow or inclination of the head when introduced to another gentleman as a matter of recognition and mutual respect.
An American official making exaggerated bows to foreign potentates or high official like Obama did is a breach of protocol since the policy for American officials was established by George Washington and John Quincy Adams.
Will the Scots protest the movie, since Saoirse Ronan is Irish, not Scottish? If Scarlett Johansson can't play a transgender man, then why should Saoirse Ronan be allowed to play a Scot? To the barricades, true Scotsmen/women/persuns of uncertain gender!
Will the Scots protest the movie, since Saoirse Ronan is Irish, not Scottish?
No True Scotsman could possibly object.
The blue eyes dominate Mary's face in the poster, but Mary had brown eyes.
I googled "Queen reviewing the troops," and found generally that she was in the position closer to the troops, her husband or aides following behind. My impression was that Trump had stopped and was waiting for the Queen to take her position. She went behind him and was about to move to the inside and then changed her mind, I assume to give the honored position to Trump to review the troops.
Sawhorse Ronin is all very well and good, it doesn't matter really anyway because she lost, but why did they give the exquisite descendant of convicts that terrible wig/dye job? Good Queen Bess was a real ginger, wasn't she? Robbie's poster's hair color was never found in Nature.
I think all this protocol nonsense will go away when Queen Liz gives up the thrown.
Trump always tries to do the right thing when it comes to protocol.
He even treated the N. Korean Dictator with respect.
The left wing criticism of Trump or any R President - for not following protocol is laughable. The R's always treat the Presidency and other leaders with respect. Its the D's that don't.
You have JFK banging interns in the white house, LBJ talking to people while on the toilet, Carter kissing the King on the Lips, Clinton getting a Lewinsky in the Oval Office. Obama seems to be the only one since Truman that acted with a little class.
While we are talking about protocol and the queen let us take a moment to remember what a mental mediocrity Barrack Hussein Obama was.
Obama was a clown.
A complete and utter jackass.
He was given everything at every level of his life.
Everyone who still supports him is a jackass too. Double standards are the only standards and all that.
Here's a video where Obama meets the Queen and does not bow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmNDwoKyh6Q
And another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WybBWgdYcuM
Were these visits less official than Trump's?
A photo of Pres. Eisenhower inspecting the guards with Queen Elizabeth. He's slightly ahead of her. I believe that is actually the official protocol
Althouse said: By the way, have you seen these intensely gorgeous new movie posters?
Yes, I am so chuffed!
"Elizabeth and Mary: Cousins, Rivals, Queens" by Jane Dunn is a good read. Antonia Fraser's "Mary Queen of Scots" is a little more fanciful, and of course if you want to go full bodice ripper Philippa Gregory's "The Other Queen".
I wonder if I should have commented on a friends post about this. I tried my best manners.
Lots love Obama.
I fail to see where Trump did anything other than try to do what the Queen indicated.
Haters gotta hate, I guess.
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