"... that I was a great listener. After being on testosterone, they informed me that my listening skills weren’t what they used to be. Here’s an example: I’m driving with one of my best friends, Beth, and I ask her 'Is your sister meeting us for dinner?' Ten minutes later she’s still talking and I still have no idea if her sister is coming. So finally, I couldn’t take it anymore, and I snapped and said, 'IS SHE COMING OR NOT?' And Beth was like, 'You know,
you used to like hearing all the backstory and how I’d get around to the answer. A lot of us have noticed you’ve become very impatient lately and we think it’s that damn testosterone!' It’s definitely true that some male behavior is governed by hormones. Instead of listening to a woman’s problem and being empathetic and nodding along, I would do the stereotypical guy thing — interrupt and provide a solution to cut the conversation short and move on. I’m trying to be better about this...."
From
"Crossing the divide/Do men really have it easier? These transgender guys found the truth was more complex" (WaPo).
ADDED: There's a lot more to that article that what I selected (because it jumped out on me). I know many of you won't click through to WaPo, so let me give you this one highly rated comment that sums things up:
Fascinating stories. The upsides of being male seem to be:
- respect from men and women,
- automatic assumption of functional competence,
- not interrupted by men when speaking,
- fewer internal inhibitions on ambition.
The downsides seem to be:
- less "common courtesy" from strangers,
- less emotional sharing from peer group (now male),
- less tolerance from others about hearing emotional issues,
- black males scare many people, especially police, by their skin color.
Posts
187 comments:
The highly rated comment reflects color judgment or painting with broad, sweeping strokes, not based on principle, but rather bias or prejudice.
What Crap!
Ten minutes later she’s still talking and I still have no idea if her sister is coming. So finally, I couldn’t take it anymore, and I snapped and said, 'IS SHE COMING OR NOT?
I'm a woman and this kind of shit just drives me crazy about other women. It is why I cannot work in an all woman environment.
It has nothing to do with testosterone and more to do with SHUT UP AND GET TO THE POINT!
Black males scare people by their behavior, not skin color.
Not all black males but there are enough to drive the impression.
’You know, you used to like hearing all the backstory and how I’d get around to the answer
OMG! You mean they know they are doing it?
Straight female here. That's exactly how I would react. I can't stand it when people drone on and on and let's face it it's mostly women
I'm not the world's most masculine guy, but I don't have the patience to listen to Scott Adams' meandering.
So, by "getting better at this" she (he? xir?) means being able to tolerate the incredible tedium of trying to get a straight answer out of an actual female without just punching the wall in frustration?
Let’s be honest, can any male here read Sarah Hoyt’s blog for more than a few sentences?
”I’m trying to be better about this...."
How about the woman not taking 10 minutes to get to the damn point?
WHY IS IT OUR FUCKING FAULT??????
(OK, no more coffee for me this morning.)
I was going through some old books the other day to make a pile for donating to a local library and came across a book I had not read in years and had almost completely forgotten about, Deborah Blum's Sex on the Brain: The Biological Differences Between Men and Women. The book was published in 1997. Bizarre how 20 years later its thesis has become so much more controversial. The left won the culture wars and has had to rely on ever more fringe issues to keep it going. The overwhelming majority of the population (>99%) suffers no significant conflict between their sex and their gender. That this tiny fringe claims the right to define gender for the rest of us and that transitioning children is being openly debated is a sign of what an utterly decadent culture we have become.
not interrupted by men when speaking,
hahahahaha! Yeah, right.
Well, I make two Mike's out of three, plus DBQ, who agree. What is wrong with females who have to emote a doctoral dissertation to answer a yes/no question? They don't all do it, but enough of them ...
BTW, if you are serious about becoming a man, ditch the female friends. You are just going to want to screw them all eventually, and it’s probably not going to turn out well. Better a taciturn male friend or two who gets you in a few words, than a long winded, overly chatty and ultimately inane line of obtuse advice from women who have no empathy for your new maleness. Don’t confuse sympathy for your situation with empathy for it.
And people wonder why there are so many more male CEOs than female.
@tim, I think I'm pretty manly, and I not only enjoy reading Hoyt's books, and AccordingtoHoyt.com, but I imagine that I could read her grocery lists and enjoy the experience.
My wife does this. Fortunately, i) I’ve learned how to interrupt gently and ii) she has learned that she does it and accepts my interruptions gracefully.
Also, and this is unfortunate but my sanity demands it, I am reluctant to start the conversation in the first place because I know where it’s likely to go.
"Ten minutes later she’s still talking . . . ." But I didn't care, because I'd tuned out eight minutes ago, and I no longer care if her freaking sister is meeting us for dinner.
Well Big Mike, good for you, I guess. I will take that into account if you ever recommend any reading here.
automatic assumption of functional competence,
Until you destroy the illusion, if it is one, and you are written off.
”But I didn't care, because I'd tuned out eight minutes ago, and I no longer care if her freaking sister is meeting us for dinner.”
Or I’ve forgotten what the question was. Seriously.
Wife's a flight attendant.
Around our house, when she starts going on and on about something, a gentle request is made:
"Sweetheart, land the plane!"
What is wrong with females who have to emote a doctoral dissertation to answer a yes/no question? They don't all do it, but enough of them .
OR...can't seem to ask a straightforward question. It turns into a Sherlock Holmes detective story trying to figure out what the heck they are asking.
A real conversation that occurred that almost made my eyes terminally roll back in my head.
Her: Do you think you will be going by the XX store today.
Him: Probably. (Distracted thinking about work) I drive up and down that road several times a day.
Her: Oh.....
Him: ....................(since there wasn't any need to respond to Oh.)
Her: Well, I just wondered.
Him: Now you know.
Her: Sigh.....
Him: What???
Her: Well, I guess it is just too much trouble.
Him: What? What are you talking about.
Her: I just wanted to get some milk for dinner tonight. I guess I'll have to go myself.
Him: WTF. You want milk. Why didn't you say so. I'll get you your damned milk.
Her: FORGET IT! you don't have to be such an asshole.
Me: I think I left something in the stove...I have to go now.
In our household the conversation is this.
Me: Hey. Can you get some milk on your way home?
Him: Ok.
Me: Thanks.
If the answer is no. Then
Me: Cool. I'll get some later. Bye.
Just get to the point!
"Crossing the divide/Do men really have it easier? These transgender guys found the truth was more complex"
"Transgender guys" is Newspeak for (some) women, correct? How could they know anything about being a man?
"Ten minutes later she’s still talking..."
"Does that mean YES or NO?"
@tim, you don't like Hoyt's books? What do you like?
I keep hoping for a complete change in the zeitgeist, that is, for everybody to become exhausted by identity politics and move on to something else.
No such luck.
Mine interrupts a story I'm telling to go on and on with a loosely related item that is more interesting to her.
If I point out that she interrupted to tell her story, I am in trouble so I tune out.
Girlsplaining.
Chris Rock (I think) did a bit about the way acceptance speeches at award shows are cut off, and that there should be a home device to signal "wrap it up".
I keep hoping for a complete change in the zeitgeist,
That will come when this all collapses. The problem is that there is a lot of ruin in a culture, and eventually, the victor will write the history.
The first thing a young boy learns from his Dad is how to Tune Out Mommy.
”OR...can't seem to ask a straightforward question. It turns into a Sherlock Holmes detective story trying to figure out what the heck they are asking.”
Yeah, this too, and it’s a bigger source of discord in our marriage. I can nudge her toward straightforward answers but there’s little I can do to get her to ask straightforward questions because I don’t often know there’s a question being asked.
The first thing a young boy learns from his Dad is how to Tune Out Mommy.
"I’m trying to be better about this...."
Right. Female = better. Illustrating the limits of transgenderism right there. No real man, etc.
I’ve said it before, any adroit man can hold a conversation with a woman for half an hour without really listening. But it’s a skill we begin to develop in early adolescence so late-blooming transfolk may be at a disadvantage. Of course, that’s true of all the learned life skills specific to male or female toolboxes. Which will no doubt become yet another grievance that we will be lectured about shortly.
This American Life did a radio show on this very subject way back in 2002. Enlightening, but I doubt they would be able to do the same show today.
When I am on testosterone (being a guy, I am on it all the time), I am very good at pretending to listen when I need to. If I find you sexually attractive, I will look like I am all ears, but I will be wondering what it would be like to nuzzle your neck the entire time.
nuzzle your neck
WTF neck nuzzling?
"Women say they have sexual thoughts too. They have no idea. It's the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it. If they knew what we were really thinking, they'd never stop slapping us." -- Miller
Ten minutes later she’s still talking...
Yeah. The problem is clearly testosterone.
A point sometimes made about people with this transgender fantasy is that it has little to do with the reality of being male or female but it is rather a roleplay of some stereotype. A transvestite over-the-top female or male, with every secondary sexual characteristic and extreme femininity or masculinity (crudely imagined) as a personal style. There is no androgyne halfway stage, as one might expect if this were a natural state, of some gradient of identity.
It shows every sign of being a sexual fetish.
"I'm a woman and this kind of shit just drives me crazy about other women. It is why I cannot work in an all woman environment. It has nothing to do with testosterone and more to do with SHUT UP AND GET TO THE POINT!"
I'm a woman and I have trouble with these long narratives when there's a specific point to be gotten to, but I have experienced this kind of narrative speech from men as well as women. I think people do this for different reasons and at different skill levels, and one's own reaction can vary. I get impatient when the "narrator" isn't saying interesting things, especially if that person seems deluded about how funny or fascinating her or she is. But even worse that that is a person who is so afraid of silences or lulls in the conversation that he/she desperately fills the whole space with chatter, causing nothing to ever become deep or substantial. And then there are the people who really seem to want to dominate and appear big and make you small (the kind of thing that, when done by a man, is called mansplaining). I think how you receive narrative speech can depend on whether you like the other person and whether you're trying to get something done or just want to bask in human companionship for a while.
It is part of the inherently superior socialization of mature males that they are much more tolerant of annoyances of every sort. Womens crotchets are just some of these things.
@DBQ - I've been married over 40 years to my terrific wife, and I love her and she's great. But nevertheless, every week we have that conversation you outlined which ends with my saying "Why didn't you just say so?" and then her saying "Why are you so mean?"
Actually, now I think of it, this is more than once a week because there's a variant where she asks me where I want to go to dinner, and I tell her, and then she demurs for some reason and asks again, and I tell her an alternative, and then, repeat, etc. etc. until finally I exhaust her and she just tells me what she'd like to eat and we go there.
Black males do not scare police. Their behavior draws attention. They do not scare police. I am intrigued by the feminization of the intelligence agencies. They are no longer men, openly confronting. Rather they have become passive aggressive wimpy men, always seeking to get their way through underhanded manipulation.
any downside to (cough) estrogen?
"My wife does this. Fortunately, i) I’ve learned how to interrupt gently...."
There are so many ways to prompt the Narrator to get to the point, and if you have a good relationship, you have figured this out. You yourself are not a good conversationalist if you can't think of a lot of variations of "cut to the chase" and "so wait minute, is your sister coming to dinner?" or "This is all very interesting but I'm losing track of why we were talking about this."
I was just reading a short story by a favorite author and I had to stop because I got tired of his delaying tactics (like characters talking about when they could schedule and time to talk and where they would meet).
"I'm a woman and I have trouble with these long narratives when there's a specific point to be gotten to, "
TL;DR
Lemme guess: guys do it too.
How horrible to take a drug that makes you impatient in new ways with your old friends? Maybe there's an implicit idea that you want to be free of having to spend so much time talking and you think less talk really is better. This person said he needed to get "better" about it, but he may have meant that he needed to figure out tactful ways to let the friend know she's talking too much. Maybe he always thought she talked too much and just felt inhibited or unenergized about revealing it.
Re: women and talking.
Isn't there a story about Tiresias in Greek mythology - the blind god who has manifested as a man and a woman - in which he as asked who enjoyed sex more?
He replied "Women do but men talk about it more".
black males scare many people, especially police, by their skin color.
If a certain cohort made up only 1/8 of the population, but was responsible for committing over 1/2 of the violent crime year after year, we'd learn to be afraid of that cohort.
It wouldn't matter what the cohort is that correlates to a predilection for violent criminal behavior, people with common sense would learn to recognize it, and avoid people of that cohort.
A religious order within the Catholic church, the Carthusians, live by the creed that the greatest gift we can give to one another is silence. To leave others in silence, male or female, is difficult.
BTW: in my straight relationship, my boyfriend is the one with the rambling mouth. Anyone in an LTR with a 'rambler' has cultivated the art of pretending to listen.
I’m trying to be better about this
Right, because "better" means tolerating someone taking over 10 minutes to answer a yes or no question.
I have not been in a relationship with a woman since I was in high school, but I had to learn psychotherapy as part of my education and training. It was absolute torture, and depressed women were usually the worst. The epitome of wanting to feel better and not get better. Probably why I ran as far as possible when it came to my professional life.
- respect from men and women,
- automatic assumption of functional competence,
- not interrupted by men when speaking,
If someone takes 10 minutes to tell answer a yes/no question about whether their sister is coming for dinner:
I lose respect for that person because they are wasting my time. Or really, a part of my life.
If they can't answer yes/no I start wondering about competence
About 3 minutes into to it I am likely to interrupt "JUST TELL ME WHETHER YOUR SISTER IS COMING, DAMMIT!!!"
My wife does this to me all the time. I've learned over the years to be a bit more polite with my interruptions but I still interrupt.
My daughter isn't like this. She's a Chemical Engineer. She also "shops like a guy". Into the store, find what's needs and boom!, out again. My wife can spend an hour in Walgreens buying toothpaste.
almost 45 years together. I assume that eventually I will get used to it. Or the Alzheimers will kick in for me and I won't care.
John Henry
Coaching entrepreneurs about how to talk to potential investors, a key piece of advice I always have to give is "First answer the question that was asked."
If your revenue trend is weak, say so, THEN explain why.
I have not noticed any difference in the way men and women entrepreneurs behave in this regard.
I get impatient when the “narrator" isn't saying interesting things, especially if that person seems deluded about how funny or fascinating her or she is
Yeah. Keeping some detail that they ought to put out up front to maintain suspense and interest in their conversation. Why not put the detail out in the first place and we can talk about the one interesting thing you have to say? It shows a lack of confidence. I grew up with a dinner table of eleven, and if you didn’t cut to the chase, and didn’t bring your A game, conversationally, even as one of the “little kids” you were simply dismissed.
Anyway, now that the British Open is over...
Ann Althouse said...This person said he needed to get "better" about it, but he may have meant that he needed to figure out tactful ways to let the friend know she's talking too much.
That's a nice thought, but it's not supported by the excerpt. "Instead of listening to a woman’s problem and being empathetic and nodding along, I would do the stereotypical guy thing — interrupt and provide a solution..."
Many (cough) years ago my wife responded to my frustration about her not getting to the point, and her tendency to repeat verbatim some business conversation.
What heard from her was that sometimes she just needed me to be a "sounding board". She was using me as a tool to help her reflect on what had happened.
So now I often ask her explicitly if that's what she wants. I'm happy to spend that time, as long as I know what's going on.
Don't expect your partner to read your mind. Duh.
When some blogger introduces a link with “Grab a coffee” that’s like anti-click bait.
And so Zi learned that women want to be listened to and not conversed with.
“A point sometimes made about people with this transgender fantasy is that it has little to do with the reality of being male or female but it is rather a roleplay of some stereotype”
Hence the barbaric cruelty of surgical genital mutilation and hormones. I have a lot of sympathy for people tormented by mental health challenges but we’re really going to have to find a better way to address this one.
DBQ,
You made me laugh out loud.
Come over to my house and you can hear this every day when my wife is not working (all summer long since she is a teacher)I work out of a home office in my basement. Thank goodness for her bad knees. I wind up having to do the laundry but she almost never comes to my office. So she calls me, like this:
She: Are you doing anything important?
Me: Yes, of course. I am working. (Posting comments sometimes feels like work)
Her: I need to go to Plaza Las Americas (A large mall 90 minutes away)
Me (innocently): What for?
Her: I need to go to Gap (or Macys or some other store) to buy (fill item here) for (Fill reason here. There is always a reason that takes 4-5 minutes to explain)
Me: OK, see you later.
Her: Are you really busy? Could you do it later?
Me: Yes and no.
Her: wouldn't you like to come with me?
Me: No, I told you I'm working.
Her: (Another 5-10 minutes about why she really needs to go)
Me: OK, let me put on some pants.
Thank goodness she goes back to work next week. If she ever retires I'm going to have to rent an office somewhere.
John Henry
Fred Dinkwater
Which reminds me that my wife would come home from her bond trading and happily relive the day, conversation by conversation, trade by trade. It was weird. She would spend five hours recounting eight if given the chance. Me? How was my day? Fine. I never like reliving my business day.
David-2 said, "Actually, now I think of it, this is more than once a week because there's a variant where she asks me where I want to go to dinner, and I tell her, and then she demurs for some reason and asks again, and I tell her an alternative, and then, repeat, etc. etc. until finally I exhaust her and she just tells me what she'd like to eat and we go there.
One reason among many I never married.
Did she do this while you were dating? While you were engaged? This would certainly have been a deal-breaker for me, and I think it would come coupled with some other annoying behaviors.
Did you have some kind of shotgun wedding?
In The Right Stuff book, Tom Wolfe is talking to one of Gus Grissom's fellow astronauts.
He says "I once flew 8 hours in the back seat of an F-whatever with Gus. Other than flight related stuff, I doubt we exchanged more than 10 words. For Gus that was a deep and meaningful conversation" Quoting from memory.
My kind of guy.
If I was going to spend 3-4 days cooped up in a Gemini space capsule, I would prefer this extreme rather than someone who JUST WILL NOT SHUT UP!!!
John Henry
Jim wrote:
"Ten minutes later she’s still talking...
Yeah. The problem is clearly testosterone."
Thread winner right here!
@Bob - Did I mention I love her? Did I neglect to mention, due to space reasons, all the many many reasons why I did in the first place and why I still do 40+ years later? Sorry.
Did you ever see the video of F1 driver Riccardo Patrese on "Take Your Wife To Work" day? That satisfied grin of fond love he gives her after she spends the entire ride telling him, with great enthusiasm, how he should do his job? That's me.
Years ago I was on the board of the parents association of a private school.
Came the meeting to decide how to replace the outgoing Chair.
After 10 minutes it was clear that there were only two possible candidates.
90 minutes later I was rude and asked for a decision.
Did I mention that all other board members were women?
I would do the stereotypical guy thing — interrupt and provide a solution to cut the conversation short and move on. I’m trying to be better about this...."
You ARE getting better. Quit fighting the progress.
Years ago I read Deborah Tannen's book You Just Don't Understand about gender differences in conversation. I found it very helpful in understanding gender differences in conversation and helpful in understanding what is going on in classrooms, seminars, and meetings, in addition to one-on-one conversations. Conversational purposes differ between genders. A lot of the exasperated tone of comments here indicates that people have trouble understanding this and getting beyond frustration.
David-2, yes you did say that in your first paragraph. But I forgot all about it when I read the second paragraph. Sorry.
I did say there were many reasons I never married.
This is my wife when we go to the hardware store and a customer service person says, "Can I help yo?"
Wife: "My sister? Lives in Asheville? and she's coming for a visit, so I ..."
At which point I interrupt: "STORIES!"
And then she tells the poor, innocent customer service what color of paint she wants.
C'mon, people! We've got lives we have to live here!
I have a female friend that has a lot of great attributes. But....
1. She never shuts up.
2. I try to be polite and listen, but if I add an affirmation or a question or try to re-phrase, she gets upset and says, "You're not listening! You never let me finish!"
3. One night, I finally, in frustration, said, after ten plus minutes of no-content rambling, asked her to get to the point> She didn't talk to me for several months thereafter.
4. Now when we are together, and it is not that often by my choice, I sit in silence until she is done. Invariably she accuses me of not paying attention.
Men cannot win.
Wife’s Diary:
Tonight, I thought my husband was acting weird. We had made plans to meet at a nice restaurant for dinner. I was shopping with my friends all day long, so I thought he was upset at the fact that I was a bit late, but he made no comment on it. Conversation wasn’t flowing, so I suggested that we go somewhere quiet so we could talk. He agreed, but he didn’t say much.
I asked him what was wrong; He said, ‘Nothing..’ I asked him if it was my fault that he was upset. He said he wasn’t upset, that it had nothing to do with me, and not to worry about it. On the way home, I told him that I
loved him. He smiled slightly, and kept driving. I can’t explain his behavior. I don’t know why he didn’t say, ‘I love you, too.’
When we got home, I felt as if I had lost him completely, as if he wanted nothing to do with me anymore. He just sat there quietly, and watched TV. He continued to seem distant and absent. Finally, with silence all around
us, I decided to go to bed. About 15 minutes later, he came to bed. But I still felt that he was distracted, and his thoughts were somewhere else. He fell asleep; I cried. I don’t know what to do. I’m almost sure that his thoughts are with someone else. My life is a disaster.
Husband’s Diary:
Motorcycle won't start; can't figure out why
Did she do this while you were dating? While you were engaged? This would certainly have been a deal-breaker for me, and I think it would come coupled with some other annoying behaviors.
Things you will put up with to get some pussy.
How horrible to take a drug that makes you impatient in new ways with your old friends?
Men are goal oriented (get to the point!). Women are process oriented (here is how I came to my decision). I learned this long ago from "Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus." Maybe that is due to testosterone?
OMG, this is sometimes an issue between me and my wife. I tend to tune the backstory out, but I often tune out the point, too.
my wife asked me what are Althouse's words?
I said: after 'up'
am I right?
Which reminds me that my wife would come home from her bond trading and happily relive the day, conversation by conversation, trade by trade.
My husband does something similar about his work. How was your day? or How did that job go? results in a really long detailed description of what the problem was/is and the mechanics behind how it was solved or the potential solutions to the problem.
Pump curves. Deep set. Shallow depth. Horsepower. Depths of the wells. GPM the pumps can provide. GPM the well can produce. The amount of water and pressure the clients need. Is the bladder tank the problem? The controller. Perhaps a pump saver. Torque arrestors? Well going dry? Slow aquifer. Pumping sand. All sorts of theoretical and mathematical issues. Physics of water lift, resistance. Sumbersibles? Jets? Variable speed. Ohms. Amps. Unknowns about the well and existing equipment. etc etc etc.
I realize that he is basically thinking out loud and doesn't really require my participation so I just nod, listen and occasionally offer some observations or suggestions. Since I've heard all this for years, sometimes my suggestion are even right. Plus, I like the science and problem solving part of this whole process.
When I was working as a financial advisor, I also would do like your wife and recap some of my trades, conversations and thinking behind the portfolios. I was basically "thinking out loud" like my husband and really didn't need much of his participation. Perhaps your wife is doing the same.
Oops, forgot to say "she is paraphrasing after 'up' .'"
I think we're burying the lede here.
If men's behavior is hormonal its not because they are a bunch of ignorant brutes who need to change with the times.
We can now stop discussing how their behavior is anti-woman or to create a system to keep them oppressed.
Like every other color of the LGBT rainbow, men are just being who they are biologically-determined to be.
I think many women want you to listen and not solve their problem, so they've learned to keep all the pieces you might use to do this hidden until the final reveal.
"black males scare many people, especially police, by their skin color."
White racist trash like "Michael the Magnificent" and his racist "cohorts" don't scare me in the least. I have a *black* belt in taekwondo; if they try to start a race war, they'll get their heads kicked in. I just want racist Trump dumped as president. *He* scares me because he's so bad, and might just destroy the world due to his utter ineptness.
Our 53rd wedding anniversary is just six weeks away; and I do love my wife dearly. But on occasion having to listen to an extended back story before I can figure out what her point is (or why should I care about the topic she's discussing) will drive me crazy.
That's true even though my wife is a very intelligent and hard working (and efficient) person. But I don't need to know, or want to hear, about two or three people who had some interaction with or relation to the person who is the point of one of her stories.
There is a defense mechanism of course--adopted by many long term husbands. She rattles on; you say yes dear or nod occasionally with your inner ear turned to say "20% receiving". The trick is in learning when to turn that receiving volume up.
I'm a woman and this kind of shit just drives me crazy about other women. It is why I cannot work in an all woman environment.
Same here, but the worst person I've worked with who does all of these annoying things - lots of pointless stories, everything's a group project (because it's better when we do it together!), not stating objectives - is a male.
You see, this is why you guys never really listen to Inga- it is all that testosterone in your system.
It is also why you never listen to Chuck.
Men ramble when they are drunk- they can also do it when trying to impress women.
Someone once showed me a video of myself really drunk. It was cringe-inducing. Yikes!
I wonder how much of the personality change is due to hormones and how much is due to feeling like they're now allowed to act more stereotypically male.
Things you will put up with to get some pussy.
Early in life that was a very long list, but it gets shorter by the day, which correlates with my decreasing level of testosterone level as I age.
My husband tells me I'm starting to vapor lock when I verbally get wound up. It's a nice way to remind me that I should step back and take a breath.
"I think we're burying the lede here.
If men's behavior is hormonal its not because they are a bunch of ignorant brutes who need to change with the times.
We can now stop discussing how their behavior is anti-woman or to create a system to keep them oppressed.
Like every other color of the LGBT rainbow, men are just being who they are biologically-determined to be."
Ha ha ha. There goes a male, trying to apply male logic to gender issues.
”At meetings both men and women can ramble.”
This is true. Everybody bitched about the length of faculty meetings, but during the actual meetings the bitchers would never shut up and let the meeting end.
"I have a *black* belt in taekwondo"
Bring it on. I have have a brown belt in Sum Flung Dung.
It's hilarious when black men brag AND complain about how scary they are. The vast majority are crybully bitches addicted to prison sex. I can't help but laugh when their mothers die.
Personalty types. Lots of them. Like breeds of horses and dogs, the more the better.
The drugs for everthing idiots now want to blame testosterone for standard aggresiveness. It's only a fuel for alertness, for muscle growth and strength. Don't leave home without it.
OK...Ok. Maybe using wittiness is a better way . Sorry, I get testy sometimes.
I can get to the point of most anything in a few sentences. After sentence number 1 my husband interrupts and takes the conversation off in another direction. Related, but not on point. After I gently bring the conversation back to sentence 2, he does it again. I bring the conversation back to sentence number 3 when he tells me it's taken so long for me to get what I want to say out, he's forgotten why we were talking about it. So I send him email when what I want to say is important.
Char Char Binks said...
I have have a brown belt in Sum Flung Dung.
I know judo and karate, and several other oriental words.
Chris Rock (I think) did a bit about the way acceptance speeches at award shows are cut off, and that there should be a home device to signal "wrap it up".
A skit from The Chappelle Show.
What makes you think I'm a "black man?" Have you run a DNA test on my used Kleenex? I wouldn't put it past you. I won't tarnish this blog with an inflamatory insult in kind. You are a worthless racist Trumptard troll, is all I'll say.
https://www.23andme.com
I never said you were black.
Or a man.
traditionalguy said...
The drugs for everthing idiots now want to blame testosterone for standard aggresiveness.
This creature blames Reefer Madness:
"An Australian man who identifies as a transgender woman defended himself in court on Thursday, claiming that he was either possessed by a demon or his mind was addled by drugs and therefore it was his body, not him, who attacked people at a 7-Eleven with an ax last year."
IOW, he's crazy.
might just destroy the world due to his utter ineptness.",
That reminds me of the guy whose plans for world domination were thwarted when his wife found out about them.
I recall that Trumpit claimed to be part Haitian.
So, theres that.
Creole milat - mulatto.
traditionalguy said...
Sorry, I get testy sometimes.
That's the testosterone talking - you're seeing the world thru blood-colored glasses, as you should.
I ran across a great article on Citizen Trump from 1984. He is pretty much the same guy then as he is today as Prez. Back then everybody loved him though. Read the whole thing. It is appropos here because it shows how a focused guy can get stuff done. Many women, and men, can't focus like this.
https://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/08/magazine/the-expanding-empire-of-donald-trump.html
A NYT reporter followed him around for the day. In the PM Trump had a meeting of a committee for a fundraiser for the Vietnam Veteran's Memorial. I was impressed with his Git 'er done seriousness. He doesn't go to many meetings of this committee, apparently. When he does, he gets stuff done
=======================
His last appointment of the day is a committee meeting of the New York Vietnam Veterans Memorial Commission. He walks in late to a conference room at Price Waterhouse & Company, the accounting firm, where a group of about 10 men, most of whom look to be corporate junior executives about his age, tired looking young men with their ties lossened after a long day at the office, gathered around a conference table.
Mr. Trump is the co-chairman, but he has not been to many of the meetings and, although they don't show it, some of the committee members are peeved. The meeting has already begun when he strolls in. There are written reports on the table about design contests and a fund-raising campaign for a memorial. A good deal of hand-wringing is going on over how in the world to raise even a small portion of the $1.4 million needed. The men are stating the need to energize that component of the campaign, to plug into that secor, to interface. Mr. Trump does not take off his coat and slouches in a chair. When he finally speaks up, he says hat he is on the commission because the young men who went to Vietnam got a bad deal - which, about the worst thing that can happen to anyone.
He then throws out the names of some people, friends of mine, whom they could probably tap for substantial contributions. Then, we're going to have the fund-raiser at Trump Tower, he says, punching through the canvas. I've called the White House. The President is coming, so we can raise the price of the 800 tickets from $500 to $1,000. That will just about put you where you want to be.
I hae to be going, he says. All of the men stare silently at him as he stands and picks up a copy of the afternoon newspaper on the conference table, looking for a moment at his photograph on both the front and back pages, photographs taken at the sports forum where the men called out his name. That was 10 hours, several projects and milions of dollars ago. He shakes his head and smiles at the photographs as the men continue to stare at him intently.
Mr. Trump, one of the men about his age asks sheepishly. What's Herschel Walker really like?
============================
John Henry
Taekwondo is not too well regarded for practical fighting.
OTOH, it is of course good for physical fitness.
But then I also recall Trumpit saying he/she had disabling medical issues.
He'll know it's the testosterone when he hears the Siren't Song of the power tools section whenever he walks into a Home Depot.
OT in this thread but also of general interest from the article:
Football because he owned the NJ Generals at the time.
==========================
The football thing is cute, Trump Tower and the piano and all of that, it's all cute, but what does it mean? he says, sounding what borders on a note of uncharacteristic despair.
Asked to explain, he adds: What does it all mean when some wacko over in Syria can end the world with nuclear weapons?
He says that his concern for nuclear holocaust is not one that popped into his mind during any recent made-of-television movie. He says that it has been troubling him since his uncle, a nuclear physicist, began talking to him about it 15 years ago.
His greatest dream is to personally do something about the problem and, characteristially, Donald Trump thinks he has an answer to nuclear armament: Let him engotiate arms agreements - he who can talk people into selling $100 million properties to him for $13 million. Negotiations is an art, he says and I have a gift for it.
The idea that he would ever be allowed to got into a room alone and negotiate for the United States, let alone be successful in disarming the world, seems the naive musing of an optimistic, deluded young man who has never lost at anything he has tried. But he believes that through years of making his views known and through supporting candidaes who share his views, it could someday happen.
================================
Nobody imagined it 34 years ago but it seems like it has long been on his mind. Now that he actually gets a chance to do something about it, like that VN Memorial thing, he actually accomplishes something nobody else could do. (Well, he's made progress, anyway. On NoKo. We'll have to wait to see how it finally plays out)
John Henry
"black males scare many people, especially police, by their skin color."
I would like some confirmation from the dark-skinned Indian software engineers in town.
I have a *black* belt in taekwondo; if they try to start a race war, they'll get their heads kicked in.
Now that's some serious funny right there. For the record, I'd never start a race war, or any other type of civil war, but I'd certainly participate in suppressing one.
Perhaps you should rethink threatening me with violence, which violates blogger.com's terms of service.
Althouse: "...transgender guys..."
Do you mean a woman who is taking drugs?
Why is that highly educated people have to have experienes like this to discover that men and women are different?
Imagine the shock she'll get when she discovers men are generally stronger than women, even mentally ill women taking male hormones.
I had a nasty aneurism a while ago that took out my right parietal lobe and took my short-term memory with it. And with it gone, my friends said you are no longer the listener you were, and shoulder I could cry on. The feedback loop was gone.
gender differences in conversation
Oh, piffle. There just a lot of stupid inconsiderate people. It drives me crazy when I'm at a political meeting, and you start to hear some interesting talk among the group, and the woman sitting next to you says, "so, did you have a nice weekend?" like I couldn't possibly be interested in what Those Men are talking about. That kind of thing drove my parent crazy too. Side talk - gah!
And then there are the old boys who develop some sort of nonstop talking disorder. Really strange, but it seems that old women become more circumspect and the mean start to unload Everything they ever wanted to say. Maybe because of the shit they put up with during their married years.
@Gospace:
Why is that highly educated people have to have experienes like this to discover that men and women are different?
Imagine the shock she'll get when she discovers men are generally stronger than women, even mentally ill women taking male hormones.
It is amazing how much of the social justice left considers themselves the vanguard of science and rationality while their entire worldview is based on a behaviorist theory of human behavior that has been discredited for decades. In fact, Noam Chomsky wrote the most devastating critique of B.F. Skinner in 1959. Nonetheless, the social justice left is committed to an ascientific blank slate theory in which human beings are born as empty vessels and society pours identity into them. Chomsky is also a noted critic of postmodernism, such as here. He is also fantastically dismissive of trendy continental "philosophers" like Jacques Derrida and more recently Slavoj Žižek.
To me the most obvious riposte to those who believe there are no differences between men and women is why are sports sex-segregated?
"Mutual disrespect between plebeian souls quickly turns love or friendship into a bilateral contract for rudeness" Don Colacho.
Pump curves. Deep set. Shallow depth. Horsepower. Depths of the wells. GPM the pumps can provide. GPM the well can produce. The amount of water and pressure the clients need. Is the bladder tank the problem? The controller. Perhaps a pump saver. Torque arrestors? Well going dry? Slow aquifer. Pumping sand. All sorts of theoretical and mathematical issues. Physics of water lift, resistance. Sumbersibles? Jets? Variable speed. Ohms. Amps. Unknowns about the well and existing equipment. etc etc etc.
Is your husband a director of porn films?
I am reminded of Larry Summers' famous remarks about women in the sciences that helped get him shit canned from Harvard. MIT biologist Nancy Hopkins, present at the conference, famously remarked that she had to flee the room because she "would've either blacked out or thrown up." Her heart was pounding and she was short of breath. She was being made physically ill.
Is there a more succinct summation of all the stereotypes of women in academia?
Did she do this while you were dating? While you were engaged? This would certainly have been a deal-breaker for me, and I think it would come coupled with some other annoying behaviors.
Well, testosterone couples impatience with a strong desire to get laid.
My wife is the ultimate narrator. Merely saying "help me I'm talking and I can't shut up" usually produces her Cliff Notes version. Also occasionally produces a "why are you so impatient" or "quit being an asshole" right before I get the Cliff Notes. But it's worth it. Backup is to turn off my hearing aids, a trick I learned from my father.
"To me the most obvious riposte to those who believe there are no differences between men and women is why are sports sex-segregated? "
Because men are afraid of strong, confident women.
Duh.
First, they conflated sex and gender. Now, they want to use testosterone to paint men with broad, sweeping strokes. This must be the basis for the new campaign to redefine the masculine gender (e.g. behaviors) to conform with a preferred progression.
Trumpit said...
"black males scare many people, especially police, by their skin color."
"White racist trash like "Michael the Magnificent" and his racist "cohorts" don't scare me in the least. I have a *black* belt in taekwondo; if they try to start a race war, they'll get their heads kicked in. I just want racist Trump dumped as president. *He* scares me because he's so bad, and might just destroy the world due to his utter ineptness."
Yeah.Everybody on the internet is a ninja. You got me shakin im my boots little tumpit.
Althouse: “But even worse that that is a person who is so afraid of silences or lulls in the conversation that he/she desperately fills the whole space with chatter, causing nothing to ever become deep or substantial.”
Coincidentally, earlier today I independently coined a term upon observing this annoying behavior: bagpiping.
@campy:
Because men are afraid of strong, confident women.
Duh.
I remember during the peak of the Rhonda Rousey hype that people were actually asserting with a straight face that she could take Floyd Mayweather in a no holds barred fight. After her humiliating defeat by Holly Holmes, the talk died down, but still. It is amazing how often this myth is indulged in. In GI Jane, the women in the military agitprop film from 1997, Demi Moore's character is able to stand up to Viggo Mortensen's antagonist after receiving a beating that would have left any woman with every bone in her face broken and likely in a coma for several days with permanent disabilities.
I like women who have a strong, confident sense of humor. I am, simultaneously, wary of Rhonda Rousey's right leg.
I was given testosterone to treat a precancerous female condition a # of years back. It wrought Absolute. Havoc. on me: my normally low blood pressure skyrocketed, I gained something like 15 lbs in two weeks. I sprouted a full moustache on one side of my lip. My period stopped. Mentally? A mess. I'd go into these violent rages. My normal, healthy libido went through the roof: we are talking nympho / satyr obsessive.
After my complaints, Doc prescribed blood pressure meds / Celexa / Lipitor. For the first time in my life, I raised my voice at a Better, used the F word, and threatened violence.
Testosterone treatment stopped; my problem is something managed through Cortisone and periodic excisions, now. In my mid 40s, unfortunately still deal with the monthlies and about the worst PMS I've ever had to navigate through.
(Had problems with hormonal birth control, too, in the past: leg clots, breast cysts, strange mood changes. Told the doc, but he went forard with the treatment anyhow.)
This is all anecdotal stuff. All said: I get a little bit hinky around anyone using sex hormones for 'transitioning,' as I never know when Teh Crazy is going to set in for them. The hormonal stuff is doled out like candy here, along with the MAOIs, and often without proper followup, I fear.
I learned as a young man that sometimes I need to stop the woman and ask, "What is my role in this conversation?" This came after many, many sucker-punches that began with, "What do you think I should do?"
In my age, after years of gunfire and years of years, I am growing deaf in the frequencies of the female voice. (Look it up. A convenient excuse that happens to be true.) So a gambit from the aging female that I am not yet able to counter is the recessionary mutter, which begins aimed at me (I think) and continues receding down an endless corridor of diminishing decibels, as she wanders away into other rooms, still talking. At me? To me? Action request? Whine? Self-directed murmur? Fascinating insight? I can report failure at the technique of catching up, getting in front of her, and asking, "Did you want me to DO something? What was it you wanted?" I'm headed toward the conclusion that if something important was being mentioned, it will get mentioned again.
Rhonda Rousey hype that people were actually asserting with a straight face that she could take Floyd Mayweather in a no holds barred fight.
She coulda been a contender if men hadn't interrupted her so often.
PRE-ADVISORY: My wife is the light and love of my life. She is also brilliant, charming and immensely complicated.
But I HAVE to share this anecdote about this post:
I sent Anne's post to my wife with this note: ...."So what do you think of this?? I think it’s a great candidate for a Zimbardo, experiment, yes?!?"
She replied:..."Hahaha--this is exactly you to a tee--"
I protested:...."No, no, no, you dummy, it’s about Males AND Females!!! And do you not think you fit in either, somehow!?"
She protests: ",...I was talking..about what this note totally reaffirms/--When the guy .. is too impatient to listen to the "backstory"--you docthat to me all the time--get on with it--waving your hands around--I guess it's testosterone!! But whatever it is--you've got it--haha"
I protest: "...Now, you are just repeating yourself (masculine or feminine?) - so I will do the same:
…..it’s about Males AND Females!!!
...this anecdote is told to convey (in the Trans writer's opinion)“ her newly discovered ’truth’ about the Males she had chosen to join(irony alert?!).
I’m asking if you really don't see that this exact anecdote - told EXACTLY as it is but ‘read’ differently - could just as fully and validly demonstrate the ‘cliche’ nature of the feminine gender! Flip the ‘reading' of the anecdote - this ‘new’ Male suddenly sees that all the female ‘friends' (and once herself as well) think and behave identically under identical (however mundane!) circumstances.......She/he then proceeds to prove him-herself a complete fool by judgmentally declaring her newly discovered Male "impatience" to be ‘bad’ and her old female "listening" to be ‘good’. She vows to be more female than Male in her new Male personna. ....Ha, ha, good luck to Him!
This is actually very fascinating stuff .....
Anyway, as you can see, I have apparently chosen to spend my time accomplishing nothing at all useful today. But interesting. I’d call that a pleasant and enlivening waste of time.
xoxoxo
I am reminded of Larry Summers' famous remarks about women in the sciences that helped get him shit canned from Harvard. MIT biologist Nancy Hopkins, present at the conference, famously remarked that she had to flee the room because she "would've either blacked out or thrown up." Her heart was pounding and she was short of breath. She was being made physically ill.
Is there a more succinct summation of all the stereotypes of women in academia?
Well..she could have clutched her pearls...…
Communication: As a female trained to 'manage' folks, mostly males, in STEM disciplines, I've learned how to separate wheat from chaff in the droning. Not easy, but learnable. It kind of tickles the funny bone to read about such men complaining about Females.
To me the most obvious riposte to those who believe there are no differences between men and women is why are sports sex-segregated?
Thanks to the transgender movement they won't be much longer.
Strong confident women are strongly afraid.
- Marge Piercy
As a transgender he/she has to learn that he has to endure a woman yapping non stop.
That is if he wants pussy.
Of course he already has a pussy so why would he/she want one.
Modern life is very confusing for normal people.
What doesn't make sense to me is when a transgender male claims the transition has enabled him to having "become the man I always knew myself to be," and then finds that taking testosterone also has changed his/her behavior. Clearly he wasn't the "man" she thought she was. She had no idea what being a male was actually like, so why was she so convinced?
Likewise, the same applies to transgender women who believe they are becoming the woman they always knew themselves to be.
Does their conception of what it means to be a woman also apply to lesbians? I listened to a youtube video by a trans-lesbian. A "guy" everyone thought was gay in high school, but who insisted he was attracted to girls and not gay, and then decided he was a transwoman/lesbian. She went on to discuss sex as a trans-lesbian and how she used a strap on penis with her girlfriend because she was uncomfortable with using "her" own penis. There are lots of "transwomen" who believe they are lesbians with penises, which I admit I find kind of disgusting. I think keeping sexual identities as simple as possible is better than going off the cliff.
I also think breaking through gender roles is a good thing, liberating for women and men. I overheard a couple of young guys talking at the driving range yesterday about a woman one of them had just met and had liked a lot. He said about her, "she's very ambitious, and also really kind and generous rather than competitive in social situations," and they both agreed those were great qualities for a woman to have.
Blogger tcrosse said...
I'm not the world's most masculine guy, but I don't have the patience to listen to Scott Adams' meandering.
Fuck, I almost shit myself
This thing so settle for a very low level of testosterone so he/she can be a witless faggot like Trumpit.
It would be a lot easier for he/she/it.
The difference isn't listening but interest in complexifying (women) vs abstracting (men).
Men listen fine, just not to stuff that doesn't interest them.
There's gay, which has its own diva movement without hormones.
Blogger J. Farmer said... The overwhelming majority of the population (>99%) suffers no significant conflict between their sex and their gender. That this tiny fringe claims the right to define gender for the rest of us and that transitioning children is being openly debated is a sign of what an utterly decadent culture we have become.
It's like claiming gluten intolerance but with potentially tragic consequences in practice.
Have you ever notice people who are reincarnated were always some romantic countess, cleopatra or some muchy muck.
These people will always be trippin on one thing or the other
This he/she/it is in for a miserable life. I have a lot of compassion for he/she/it. Sometimes the best solution is a simple one. I would recommend a physician assisted suicide like Trumpit's mother did when she couldn't deal with the shame of her idiot child.
Hey he/she/it this ones for you.
Probably the biggest turnoff is talking to someone who just wants to Talk about themselves, and has ZERO interest in what you say.
The older I've gotten, the less and less polite I've gotten to those types.
There are lots of "transwomen" who believe they are lesbians with penises, which I admit I find kind of disgusting.
Whoa!! What happened to cis-heteronormative muff diver?
"This thing so settle for a very low level of testosterone so he/she can be a witless faggot like Trumpit."
Watching Trump sink in the polls is my sweet revenge against witless, racist & homophobic Trumptards like you.
How long until dinner is ready?
Pretty soon
How long until dinner is ready?
(Louder) PRETTY SOON
How long until dinner is ready?
(Finally! )Ten minutes
Five bedroom, two bath, family room, living room , kitchen:
Where are you?
In here
Where are you?
(louder) IN HERE
Where are you?
Finally) In the office !
Sorry but just taking testosterone does not turn you into a man. Hormones act on the body and brain in the womb and all a man's life. Men's brains are wired differently than women's. As boys, men spend a lot of time testing themselves against the world in ways that girls do not (throwing stones, sports, climbing trees, wrestling with each other, pranks, skateboarding). This is part of what builds male character. For men, it is about overcoming adversity whereas women like to share their emotional state. This is a lifetime difference. I would not be surprised if a woman taking testosterone as an adult would have odd reactions to it because her body is not adapted to it.
Probably the biggest turnoff is talking to someone who just wants to Talk about themselves, and has ZERO interest in what you say.
I know what you mean. I run across that a lot
I might have something to say, if I could get a word in
Why, just the other day, I was....
How do men talk to each other? Not about their feelings unless some big shit just happened (surgery, parent died, stuff like that, in which case we say "wow, bummer man"). No. We debate if soccer is the best sport in the world or DC vs Marvel or tell funny stories or debate if we will all have self-driving cars soon or make fun of Elon Musk or share advice on home repairs. It is a totally different world from women talking.
Trump is going down in the polls? Which polls are that? The ones that said he had no path to election as President? The polls that rated Hillary's chances of winning at 90%?
Those polls.
Enjoy yourself.
Note the irony here: darlings of the Left (trans) who assert that gender is just "assigned" at birth and is a "social construct" discover that taking testosterone changes them. huh
How do men talk to each other? Not about their feelings unless some big shit just happened (surgery, parent died, stuff like that, in which case we say "wow, bummer man").
The ex-girlfriend says "All you care about is your fucking truck!"
He says, "No, there is beer and the shooting range,"
I like the transgender "female" that was sent to women's prison.
After it raped four real females and was running around with a hard-on, they are reassessing the policy.
I have a *black* belt in taekwondo; if they try to start a race war, they'll get their heads kicked in.
Handy skill. I'm an old man and not much into fighting.
But I'll just start with a scoped .308. Followed by a 12 gauge pump. And, if absolutely necessary a 45 ACP.
Get by all of that you'll face my dogs.
Get by them and you'd very likely kick in my head... assuming you are not another full of shit tough guy.
“Men's brains are wired differently than women's”
If you want to be all rational and scientific and reality-based, don’t fall back on metaphor.
There are no wires!
Get it right guys. You’re Chromosomally challenged; therefore, you are ill more often and die younger. Get a sticker for your car. I’m tired of you claiming you’re better than those of us with a full set.
If you want to be all rational and scientific and reality-based, don’t fall back on metaphor. There are no wires!
Men's neurons and synapses are configured differently than women's. I think "wired" is just fine but I'm a guy.
Michael K said...
Black males scare people by their behavior, not skin color.
Not all black males but there are enough to drive the impression.
---
Bullshit. You're an asshole, just making shit up to justify your ossified ill-thinking. As you look for empirical work to back up your obviously self-serving baloney, be on the lookout for empirical work about the bad behavior of black males in Mississippi in 1955, or the bad behavior of black males dating to, I dunno, 1776. Good luck finding anything to back up your bullshit, doc.
J. Farmer,
Ahahahahaha. You're an idiot. How does Althouse collect this motley crew of amazon-shopping idiots and assholes?
buwaya said...
A point sometimes made about people with this transgender fantasy is that it has little to do with the reality of being male or female but it is rather a roleplay of some stereotype. A transvestite over-the-top female or male, with every secondary sexual characteristic and extreme femininity or masculinity (crudely imagined) as a personal style. There is no androgyne halfway stage, as one might expect if this were a natural state, of some gradient of identity.
It shows every sign of being a sexual fetish.
---
buwaya is a reliable source of low comedy. I laughed out loud reading this. I sometimes tell people that begging the question isn't a real concern, because people aren't bad enough at argument to fuck that up. But I am definitely wrong.
Michael The Magnificent said...
black males scare many people, especially police, by their skin color.
If a certain cohort made up only 1/8 of the population, but was responsible for committing over 1/2 of the violent crime year after year, we'd learn to be afraid of that cohort.
It wouldn't matter what the cohort is that correlates to a predilection for violent criminal behavior, people with common sense would learn to recognize it, and avoid people of that cohort.
7/22/18, 12:52 PM
---
I'm not sure how to mail an American history book to Michael the Magnificent, but clearly one is needed. I might also send books on empirical psychology and confabulation. But I'll be sure to order all these books using the Althouse amazon portal!
Kevin said...
I think we're burying the lede here.
If men's behavior is hormonal its not because they are a bunch of ignorant brutes who need to change with the times.
We can now stop discussing how their behavior is anti-woman or to create a system to keep them oppressed.
Like every other color of the LGBT rainbow, men are just being who they are biologically-determined to be.
---
Goddamn, this place is an endless fountain of these examples of shitty thinking, huh? That something in some instances has a hormonal cause doesn't mean that it is biologically determined, buddy. That there is a natural explanation in the one case does not mean that the natural explanation is all there is to the story not that we lack social levers to change the results. But if you want to know more, I suggest you use the Althouse portal to pick up <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Causation-Users-Guide-L-Paul/dp/0199673454>a book there's no way you'll be able to follow</a>.
Char Char Binks said...
I never said you were black.
7/22/18, 2:58 PM
---
If only conversational implicature were a thing. Oh wait, it is.
Birkel said...
Althouse: "...transgender guys..."
Do you mean a woman who is taking drugs?
7/22/18, 3:17 PM
---
Man, all the fruit is low-hanging around here. "A woman who is taking drugs" isn't even the talking points of the idiots who generally object to transgender appellations. And, obviously, it is way, way over-inclusive. I wouldn't expect the gang around here to be inclusive other than to be over-inclusive.
J. Farmer said...
Nonetheless, the social justice left is committed to an ascientific blank slate theory in which human beings are born as empty vessels and society pours identity into them.
---
Nope. Try again, but maybe only after spending some time getting better at this.
J. Farmer:
To me the most obvious riposte to those who believe there are no differences between men and women is why are sports sex-segregated?
---
Find me one serious, goddamned example of someone who believes there are no differences between men and women.
You know, given the preponderance of men in the Althouse Fawning Club, and given the quality of comments around here, I'm beginning to wonder whether testosterone causes an inability to think critically.
Michael K said...
I like the transgender "female" that was sent to women's prison.
After it raped four real females and was running around with a hard-on, they are reassessing the policy.
---
Wait, did you just mistake the internet porn you watched for a documentary? That confusion isn't surprising, given your track record.
Oh, please, Althouse. At the end of the day, it is clear: way back in the day 2002-3+, you were about your ex-husband and each/both of you about your sons, by at that time. C was struggling. J was in law-school.
And I had a toddler.
"Mine interrupts a story I'm telling to go on and on with a loosely related item that is more interesting to her.
If I point out that she interrupted to tell her story, I am in trouble so I tune out.
Girlsplaining."
Mine is stubborn that way. I start a story,she goes off on tangent#1. Finally she exhausts that, and I get control of the conversation for about 30 seconds, and try to pick up where I was. So, she interrupts with tangent#2. Ten minutes later I get it back, just to have her go off on tangent#3. This can go on for, literally, hours. Mostly when driving, because we don't otherwise spend hours upon hours in the same space - I will otherwise quickly wander off to something in a quieter environment.
"Years ago I read Deborah Tannen's book You Just Don't Understand about gender differences in conversation. I found it very helpful in understanding gender differences in conversation and helpful in understanding what is going on in classrooms, seminars, and meetings, in addition to one-on-one conversations. Conversational purposes differ between genders. A lot of the exasperated tone of comments here indicates that people have trouble understanding this and getting beyond frustration."
Agreed. I have most of her books on language. I discovered her at a time when I was recovering from a divorce. As with many guys, I was caught by surprise. While things weren't going great, I didn't think that they were really that bad. They apparently were. It didn't help that I had a lot of brothers, but no sisters, and a mother who would never say (from a male point of view) what she really meant or wanted.
Number one takeaway from Tannen is that men and women are two sexes separated by a common language. Stereotypically, we use language differently. Men mostly use it to communicate information about the real world. Women also use it to share emotions and build and maintain interpersonal relationships. Which guys typically don't need, know, or want. We mostly don't build relationships through talking, as women do, but by doing.
Another aspect is that makes tend to be a lot more direct. Which is fine for us, because we mostly don't worry about offending anyone with what we say. Women, on the other hand, being more democratic and relationship oriented, get offended, at times, by directness. And this ties into why women tend to do a horrid job of running meetings with a lot of guys present. They dither, giving every woman there her voice. Males are more direct, more functional. Alphas make decisions, betas follow the alphas, and the deltas are left behind. Mostly, betas are just happy to be invited along, and if they really want to make decisions, they can become an alpha. So, when my mother would suggest that it would be nice if I did something, I would respond that world peace and puppies were also nice. My father would then say "do it", and being the alpha, I would comply. Women, at least outwardly, want other people (women) to like them, giving orders to get things done is seen as being bossy, which translates into not being sufficiently sensitive to the wants and needs of the other women there. Esp their emotional needs. What we see as dithering, they see as relationship and consensus building. Every woman there needs to be heard, and not be slighted. For us, the consensus building is in the selection of the alpha. If they don't have the loyalty of the group, some of the group is going to desert and find another alpha to follow.
As a rule, men learn to tune out needless talk and focus on what we deem key details. If you notice a guy's eyes glazing over, it is because you are not answering a relevant question to us. Women do the same to men but do not get called out for "not paying attention".
A dude droning on with another dude wouldnt be ignored. Theyd be mocked. Harshly.
"I would do the stereotypical guy thing — interrupt and provide a solution to cut the conversation short and move on." And the problem with this is what again?
DBQ, Whitney:
Ever had your T levels checked? Yours might be on the high side for females.
Big Mike,
Sarah's books are ok, but they're nothing like her blog.
Oh come on, Althouse, 'wiring' in this context is the deadest of dead metaphors-- there may not be strands of conductive wire in there, but our neurons absolutely do form circuits.
You ask a simple question, and the person takes ten minutes to get around to an answer? I don't care who you are, that's annoying.
Craig seems to confuse the basis for people's prejudice in 1950 with how they feel today. Is anyone treating black women or older black men terribly like they used to? No. Does anyone bother the black middle class family in the suburbs? Not much. But young black males commit a huge number of crimes (does Craig deny this?). In my life I've been assaulted once, chased once by 2 muggers, and threatened several times. All young black males. The crime statistics are not made up and do worry people.
buwaya said...
It shows every sign of being a sexual fetish.
There are male sexual fetishists who fetishize the sexuality of women to the point of wanting to embody it. This syndrome was named "Autogynephilia" by psychologist Ray Blanchard. The autogynephile wants to be a beautiful woman and wear fancy-sexy women's clothing.
But it is not the only or even the primary form of transsexuality. There are many transsexuals who have no interest in or no possibility of embodying opposite-gender sexuality. They may not care about sex very much at all. They just want physical and overt identities that match the gender identities miswired in their brains. They would be happy to be homely, drab women (or men, for those in the opposite birth gender).
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