July 9, 2018
4 more boys out of the cave...
"... in a second round of rescue operations in Thailand on Monday," CBS News reports.
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55 comments:
Intrinsic value and inordinate worth.
Unclear on the actual number rescued so far. 4, 6, 3, 2, 4, 4 more.
OK. got it.
I think a few more boys and girls need to be rescued in Thailand than than these cave explorers.
7 are out now, according to Michael Yon who is there.
The Thai equivalency of SEAL should stand down until they add sufficient diversity to their team.
America leads the way!
It's amazing what can be done when you have absolutely no other choice. I hear the kids were given a mild sedative to keep them from panicking during what must be a terrifying ordeal for them.
Great news! Praying all will be rescued safely.
And let us, please, not forget the man who died to provide these children a chance at life.
/serious
Toxic masculinity.
/sarc
Armstrong and Getty wonder if they're bringing the best soccer players out first.
If these were girls, this would be a bigger story than the SCOTUS.
"I hear the kids were given a mild sedative to keep them from panicking during what must be a terrifying ordeal for them."
I had assumed that but wondered if that assumption was correct. Thanks for the info.
Thanks Michael K
Heroes. These divers are heroes. Cave diving is dangerous and insanely difficult. These particular conditions are a nightmare.
It's a miracle 8 have gotten out.
Praying for the next stages of the rescue.
"I had assumed that but wondered if that assumption was correct. Thanks for the info."
I'm assuming it. Panic is a huge danger for cave divers.
An Australian doctor-diver has been assessing the kids in the cave.
Is anyone doing the math? Please bring out 5 next time.
Did one of the rescuers die? I thought I heard that.
"Did one of the rescuers die? I thought I heard that."
yes, a volunteer former Thai navy seal & triathlete. All honour to him. It happened a few days ago before they started the operation to extract the boys. He ran out of oxygen on the way back. He put his life on the line to get these boys out.
This cave is extremely dangerous. There are points they have to take off their oxygen and spelunk & squeeze along on their bellies forward, pushing their tanks, surrounded by water. If anything goes wrong with equipment, anything gets caught/tangled...The oxygen tanks do not hold enough oxygen to get them through the cave. They need to replenish during the dive.
Panic causes one to need more oxygen. Cold from the water -- all of it can cause the body to require more oxygen. And these kids have never dived before. I'm not sure they can all swim.
It's amazing they've managed to get 8 out. Praying.
While I am glad that they are rescuing these kids.....I am also highly irriatated about the whole thing.
As I understand it: (correct me if wrong)
1. The reason they are there in the first place is that it is some sort of sports/initiation/tradition.
2. They went in there without any knowledge of the skills it takes to be caving. Completely unprepared.
3. The purpose was to deface the cave by carving their names into the walls...like who cares!
4. The coach or adults knew or should have known that heavy rains were expected
5. The adults were stupid, negligent and did I mention stupid.
6. The parents ALLOWED this to happen.
Now. Everyone else has to save their dumb asses. People have been killed trying to fix a problem that should never have occurred at all. We are all supposed to be worrying and praying for them.
So while I don't want to see anyone ELSE killed or hurt....I don't really have much sympathy for people who do stupid things and then put everyone else in danger save them.
@DBQ, you may have missed a point. I understand that these particular caves are closed to the public, so it was illegal for them to go in in the first place.
I'd like the ring the neck of the guy who thought this cave trip was going to be a good idea.
(more than that - but I'll keep it rated G)
thanks, wwww. So sad and terrible.
the coach needs to have his ass kicked if he survives. Or just leave him in there.
The divers conducting these rescuers are big time heroes. They don't make men any more heroic than this. I hope they get a parade down Broadway and a standing ovation at the UN for showing the world what heroic men can do.
The divers conducting these rescuers are big time heroes
In a day when heroism has been diluted, and heroes are manufactured, the authentic courage and life choices of the divers overcomes the noise.
The group went in before the 'closed" season/period posted by about a week.
Rainstorms came early and they were trapped by flooding and forced to go further and further in to survive.
Diving with gear is not how the usual tourist exploring is done - on foot on dry ground when outside the monsoon/rainy season
When Huck and Jim rafted down the Mississippi, neither wore a PFD.
I'll be interested to read all the details about how this was accomplished.
Thank you for the clarification, narayanan.
Here's hoping for the five remaining. They are not promising that they can keep to this schedule. Also it is worrisome that they said they were leaving the weaker for last.
Apparently they have to recache spare oxygen tanks, and the water may be rising.
Pray, if you believe in it.
Interesting that we have heard very little about the 8 rescued so far? No pictures etc. It makes me wonder did they all survive the rescue?
The Telegraph reports that all eight are in "good health".
"Those rescued are undergoing medical checks in hospital while in quarantine, meaning they are not yet allowed close contact with relatives due to fear of infections."
MaxedOutMama said...
Also it is worrisome that they said they were leaving the weaker for last.
That sounds smart. First, taking the strongest out first gives you a little more margin of error. You can learn from that, see where they struggle, and try to make that part easier.
Second, the reason any of them are weak is that they went for an extended period without food. Once found, their strength has been increasing, so those who wait longer for their turn have more time to recover.
Also it is worrisome that they said they were leaving the weaker for last.
It's my understanding the weakest were the first four out.
Interesting that we have heard very little about the 8 rescued so far? No pictures etc. It makes me wonder did they all survive the rescue?
I suspect this is psychological. Right now the families can support each other - they're each facing the same loss. Accepting support from someone whose kids are safe isn't the same.
I heard weakest out first as well, which is consistent with US disaster training for triage. You get immediate medical care to those that need it first unless resources are so limited that you have to ration care to those who are most likely to survive.
I'm surprised how judgmental people can be about people whose name they don't know and will likely never meet in a place they likely won't visit. In short, why judge these people and events that have no effect on you, except for how our media coverage of them effect you?
Large complex operations frequently have material spin-off benefits that could not have been anticipated - if you want to be a utilitarian about this rescue. Then, the Thai government is demonstrating capacity and compassion which is good for any government. But there's still something beyond, as in the story of the man who lost his life on the rescue. He probably found out the hard way something they needed to know about how long people can swim and work on the cave route. He took that risk and without men like him we are lost. Fake protests and rudeness are only successful and helpful in the main-slime-media echo-chambers. Honor and courage are something else and they still live among us. Thank God.
"Also it is worrisome that they said they were leaving the weaker for last."
That makes sense to me. The last thing you would want is for the first attempts to fail. Hardly confidence inspiring for the the next to be rescued.
Tcrosse. Thanks - that is good to hear! .
wildswan said...
...if you want to be a utilitarian about this rescue.
If we were truly utilitarian we would not be performing this rescue. For the money being spent, many more lives could be saved providing basic sanitation, clean water, etc., where they are needed most.
But we, as a species, are not that utilitarian. If we were, the team would not have been wasting resources going spelunking in the first place, nor would there be soccer teams at all. Utilitarianism has its limits.
pacwest said...
The last thing you would want is for the first attempts to fail.
True
Hardly confidence inspiring for the the next to be rescued.
I would hope the rest would not find out about the failure until they were out of the cave. I hope nobody has informed those waiting that one of the rescue divers died while making one of these dives.
[Also it is worrisome that they said they were leaving the weaker for last.]
It's my understanding the weakest were the first four out.
There's a DM report that the plan was switched from strongest first to weakest first based on a doctor's intervention.
“I'm surprised how judgmental people can be about people whose name they don't know and will likely never meet in a place they likely won't visit. In short, why judge these people and events that have no effect on you, except for how our media coverage of them effect you?”
I understand where you’re coming from—don’t judge a man until you’ve walked 2.5 miles in his shoes, and all that, but...
They were **2.5 MILES** inside this cave. That’s a long walk even on level ground in the sunshine. During their 2.5 mile underground crawl there had to have been numerous steep or tight (or both) locations. In any such situation there will be a point that an adult with minimal cave exploring experience and twelve children in tow is going to say, “Well, fellas, it’s time to turn back.”
And I’m just saying that for a reasonable adult human being that point is going to be one helluva a lot less than 2.5 miles in.
RobinGoodfellow said...
They were **2.5 MILES** inside this cave.
They were not 2.5 miles inside the cave at they time they were trapped. They had to retreat further in as the water level rose. And 2.5 miles is not a long walk for teenage boys who play sports, and while it involved sections of narrow passages involving crawling, the section they went through before getting trapped likely involved a good bit that was walkable.
"During their 2.5 mile underground crawl there had to have been numerous steep or tight (or both) locations."
Trying to escape rising water in an enclosed area is probably highly motivating.
"..they said they were leaving the weaker for last"
That's gotta be insulting, imagine being the last one picked for the soccer team, and now this...
More from the Telegraph:
"None of the boys has been identified by name, as the authorities do not wish to upset the families of those still in danger."
This explains a lot.
"..they said they were leaving the weaker for last"
That's gotta be insulting, imagine being the last one picked for the soccer team, and now this...
That's what the news sources tell us and we know how reliable they are. I'm sure that they will find points of controversy that they can debate for days. Weeks.
"I hear the kids were given a mild sedative to keep them from panicking "
That's cheating. It's a win, but with an asterisk.
Utilitarianism has its limits.
It depends on the principles. If human life has intrinsic value, then a utilitarian philosophy would seek to preserve it, and if it has inordinate worth to promote it.
Maybe adding inordinate worth to my moral axioms would facilitate reconciliation and advance my goal to realize a philosophy that is internally, externally, and mutually consistent. I'm looking at you, God.
Individual dignity, intrinsic value, and inordinate worth.
Char Char Binks said...
"I hear the kids were given a mild sedative to keep them from panicking "
That's cheating. It's a win, but with an asterisk.
SCUBA is what's cheating. A Real Child™ would be able to hold his breath and swim out under his own power. But they're too scrawny to do that.
"Char Char Binks said...
"'I hear the kids were given a mild sedative to keep them from panicking'
"That's cheating. It's a win, but with an asterisk."
They can cheat the whole way out of the cave for all I care.
A bit late, but why not a child-sized capsule, streamlined, with oxygen in tandem, and/or a long umbilical, and you just pop 'em in and haul 'em out one at a time like reeling in a fish? Hard or soft-sided as appropriate for navigating rocky passages.
For a literary depiction of cave diving in extremis, see Trevanian's Shibumi:
One of the two magnesium flares had broken in his fall; its greasy powder had coated the other flare, which
had to be wiped off carefully before it could be lighted, lest the flame rush down the sides, burning his hand. He
struck off the flare on its cap; it sputtered and blossomed into brilliant white light, illuminating the distant walls,
encrusted with glittering crystals, and picking out the beauty of calcite drapery and slender stalactites. But these
last did not point down to stumpy stalagmites, as they had done before. The floor of the cave was a shallow lake
that covered the low speleotherns. His first fears were supported: recent rains had filled this nether end of the cave
system; the whole long marl chute at the far end of the cave was underwater.
Hel's impulse was to give in, to wade out to the edge of the cave and find a shelf to sit on where he could rest
and lose himself in meditation. It seemed too hard now; the mathematics of probability too steep. At the outset, he
had thought that this last, improbable task, the swim through the Wine Cellar toward light and air, would be the
easiest from a psychological point of view. Denied alternatives, the weight and expanse of the entire cave system
behind him, the final swim would have the strength of desperation. Indeed, he had thought his chances of making
it through might be greater than they would have been if he had Le Cagot to belay him, for in that case he would
have worked to only half the limit of his endurance, needing the rest to return, should the way be blocked, or too
long. As it was, be had hoped his chances would be almost doubled, as there was no coming back through that
force of water.
But now... the Crystal Cave had flooded, and his swim was doubled in length. The advantage of despair was gone.
Wouldn't it be better to sit out death in dignity, rather than struggle against fate like a panicked animal? What
chance did he have? The slightest movement of his jaw shocked him with agony; his shoulder was stiff and it
ground painfully in its socket; his palms were flayed; even the goddamned faceplate of his mask was unlikely to
withstand the currents of that underground pipe. This thing wasn't even a gamble. It was like flipping coins against
Fate, with Fate having both heads and tails. Hel won only if the coin landed on edge.
Yeah, Elon Musk had that small sub idea too, but from the graphics being presented, it looks as if there are too many sharp bends.
When I was in college, one of my profs, on a field trip (we were geology majors), took us into some lava tubes in Oregon. At one point we all had to wriggle through a passage literally just big enough for our shoulders (fortunately none of us was overweight), taking off backpacks and pushing or pulling them through. I was terrified, but as one of only two women in my class, I figured I had to represent. This prof was a man of mature years and stainless steel balls. On that same trip we went as far as possible into an ice cave, now gone, I believe, at the toe of one of Rainier's glaciers; a few minutes after we emerged from it, a big hunk of the ceiling collapsed.
Basically the world wants to kill you, and the essence of adventure is often thumbing your nose and daring it. I present these admittedly decades-old data without further comment.
And its over. They are all out of the cave.
Jamie, happily it doesn't matter anymore, but I said "soft" because it could just be a sort of Kevlar sleeping bag type deal, which could bend and squish.
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