June 13, 2018

"The ACLU is no longer a neutral defender of everyone’s civil liberties. It has morphed into a hyper-partisan, hard-left political advocacy group...."

"The headline in the June 8 edition of the New Yorker tells it all: 'The ACLU is getting involved in elections — and reinventing itself for the Trump era.'... Since its establishment nearly 100 years ago, the ACLU has been, in the words of the New Yorker, 'fastidiously nonpartisan, so prudish about any alliance with any political power that its leadership, in the 1980s and 90s, declined even to give awards to likeminded legislators for fear that it might give the wrong impression.' I know, because I served on its national board in the early days of my own career. In those days, the board consisted of individuals who were deeply committed to core civil liberties, especially freedom of speech, opposition to prosecutorial overreach and political equality. Its board members included Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals, right wingers and left wingers, all of whom supported neutral civil liberties. The key test in those days was what I have come to call “the shoe on the other foot” test: Would you vote the same way if the shoe were on the other foot, that is, if the party labels were switched? Today, the ACLU wears only one shoe, and it is on its left foot. Its color is blue...."

Writes Alan Dershowitz.

233 comments:

1 – 200 of 233   Newer›   Newest»
Gahrie said...

Today, the ACLU wears only one shoe, and it is on its left foot. Its color is blue...."

Glad you finally figured it out Alan...but it's been that way for quite a while.

rhhardin said...

He's a little slow to bring it up. It's been goes-without-saying material for years.

Not that he has to bring it up at all, but the impression is that he just noticed this.

Michael K said...

Just like the NAACP.

Yancey Ward said...

Conquest's Second Law of Politics in action.

Rick said...

Alan has triggered the Pivot Point.

Pivot Point: the moment the political left switches from claiming only paranoids believe something is happening to calling you racist for opposing it.

Sebastian said...

#FakeNeutrality.

Progs fight to win.

Neutrality is for pussies.

Carter Wood said...

I dropped my membership in the '80s when the ACLU attacked President Reagan for the Administration's position on El Salvador. The ACLU's commitment to the Constitution depends on the occupant of the White House.

n.n said...

Hard-left, maybe. The left is forcing a frame shift where libertarians are hard-right (prioritizing individual dignity), conservatives are right (avoiding reconciliation of moral, natural, and individual imperatives), and progressives and liberals are center (not too hot, not too cold, just right, left, whatever).

gspencer said...

I've never known the ACLU to be other than fully leftist in orientation. They say they protect all the civil rights of all Americans. Yet never, ever took a 2d Amendment case.

Fernandistein said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fernandistein said...

"Trump era" = "About 2,530,000 results" -> 379 actual results
"era of Trump" = 1,210,000 fake -> 324 actual
"Trump's era" = 29,000 fake -> 407 actual

For entertainment purposes only:

"Obama era" = 6,210,000 fake -> 205 actual
"era of Obama" = 287,000 fake -> 133 actual

AustinRoth said...

Dershowitz, himself certainly a liberal, is now seen as a conservative Trump supporter simply for not changing.

n.n said...

The frame shift is evidence of reconciliation, which may be a false signal, but we should wait and see. Perhaps this is generational inertia responding to a clear and progressive divergence.

Earnest Prole said...

The ACLU's partisanship is mirrored by the direction the National Rifle Association has taken lately. In an ideal world, those who claim to protect our civil liberties (including the Second Amendment) would put strategy above tactics and strive for long-term bipartisan support.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

The ACLU did file a lawsuit in support of the Unite-the-Right's right to have a rally in Charlottesville. So as recently as that, they showed at least some measure of non-partisanship.

Since Charlottesville, they have changed their policy, and would likely not file such a lawsuit.

Earnest Prole said...

I've never known the ACLU to be other than fully leftist in orientation.

Among other cases, you’ll need to familiarize yourself with Nazis v Skokie.

Levi Starks said...

That’s a pretty powerful statement.
Certain to be ignored by those to whom it might have the most benefit.

mccullough said...

Ignorance,

Good point. I wonder if some of the local ACLU franchises still have some independence in litigation. The national board is just MoveOn by another name at this point.

robother said...

The real dupe here is Dershowitz and his ilk, liberals who assumed that the progressive Left were ever sincere in their support of civil liberties. For the Left, the Constitution, civil rights, neutral principles of justice, even democracy are just means to an end. Necessary tools for the revolutionary vanguard while it is struggling to get power, but unacceptable as a constraint on the power of those On The Right Side of History.

Gahrie said...

I've never known the ACLU to be other than fully leftist in orientation.

Among other cases, you’ll need to familiarize yourself with Nazis v Skokie.



Earnest Prole....the wise among us acknowledge the fact that the NAZIs have always been a Leftist movement..so wrong, try again.

Gahrie said...

The ACLU's partisanship is mirrored by the direction the National Rifle Association has taken lately. In an ideal world, those who claim to protect our civil liberties (including the Second Amendment) would put strategy above tactics and strive for long-term bipartisan support.

How do you reconcile "shall not be infringed" with "take all the scary guns away!"?

Robert Cook said...

All I had to see was that the byline for the article is by Alan Dershowitz, and I become immediately skeptical.

Bay Area Guy said...

The "Dersh" is a national treasure. He maintains his principles (generally liberal, generally pro-Criminal defendant, generally pro-Israel), while the Democrat party and ACLU veer towards unprincipled leftism.

He's a bit late to the party on the ACLU, but better late than never.

Robert Cook said...

"Earnest Prole....the wise among us acknowledge the fact that the NAZIs have always been a Leftist movement..so wrong, try again."

Repeating idiocies does not make them true.

Gahrie said...

Repeating idiocies does not make them true.

There is ample evidence that fascism is a Leftist ideology, and indeed prior to WW II this was not even controversial.

What evidence is there that the fascists were Rightwing beyond "the fascists were bad guys, and all bad guys are on the Right"?

Earnest Prole said...

How do you reconcile "shall not be infringed" with "take all the scary guns away!"?

Since I’m a Second Amendment absolutist, I assume you intended this question for someone else.

hombre said...

"Yes, but Trump...."

Fabi said...

"All I had to see was that the byline for the article is by Alan Dershowitz, and I become immediately skeptical."

Ding!

Michael K said...

Repeating idiocies does not make them true.

Careful, Cookie.

hombre said...

Robert Cook said...
"All I had to see was that the byline for the article is by Alan Dershowitz, and I become immediately skeptical."

It is so difficult to cope when your playmates grow up and you don't.

Earnest Prole said...

NAZIs have always been a Leftist movement.

I suppose that explains why Neo-Nazis were marching at Charlottesville in solidarity with the Left.

Michael K said...


The ACLU's partisanship is mirrored by the direction the National Rifle Association has taken lately. In an ideal world, those who claim to protect our civil liberties (including the Second Amendment) would put strategy above tactics and strive for long-term bipartisan support.


The NRA has not changed. The Democrats have.

Congressman John Dingell is the one who described BATF as "Jackbooted Thugs." He was D Mich.

Michael K said...


NAZIs have always been a Leftist movement.

I suppose that explains why Neo-Nazis were marching at Charlottesville in solidarity with the Left.


Yes, the leader of that march was a leader of the "Occupy Wall Street" bunch a couple of years ago.

Professional "community Organizer" most likely.

Fabi said...

Dershowitz is rumored to own a dishwasher.

Robert Cook said...

"Congressman John Dingell is the one who described BATF as 'Jackbooted Thugs.'"

They are.

I Callahan said...

All I had to see was that the byline for the article is by Alan Dershowitz, and I become immediately skeptical.

Why? Does he have a habit of lying?

"Earnest Prole....the wise among us acknowledge the fact that the NAZIs have always been a Leftist movement..so wrong, try again." Repeating idiocies does not make them true.

Let's compare, say, Nazi Germany and Communist USSR. Let me see: state run institutions, nationalism, government control of production, removal of religion, etc. I could go on, but anyone who thinks Nazism isn't leftist in nature, either doesn't know what leftism is, or is flat-out delusional.

Michael K said...

I've never known the ACLU to be other than fully leftist in orientation.

Barry Goldwater was a member in the 1950s.

hombre said...

"Repeating idiocies does not make them true."

This is why lefties prefer ideology to history. Ideology insulates you from historical fact and makes statements like this seem rational.

Gahrie said...

I suppose that explains why Neo-Nazis were marching at Charlottesville in solidarity with the Left.

You're surprised that someone who is a NAZI is ignorant? American NAZIs believe they're Rightwing because their teachers told them so. Most American NAZIs in fact are not NAZIs, but simply ignorant racists who want to hang out with other ignorant racists.

I Callahan said...

Gahrie - I think you're right here. I'd guess that most American "Nazis" have no clue what policies Hitler implemented and believed in, other than getting "them Jews." Nazism, in its truest form, is as leftist as Communism.

Robert Cook said...

"American NAZIs believe they're Rightwing because their teachers told them so. Most American NAZIs in fact are not NAZIs...."

Hahahaha!

Craig said...

It's telling which bits of this essay Althouse chose to highlight (surely knowing that her lapdogs would almost certainly not click through to read).

Hagar said...

You disappoint me, Cookie.

David in Cal said...

The ACLU wears only one shoe; it's a left wingtip.

Jupiter said...

"In an ideal world, those who claim to protect our civil liberties (including the Second Amendment) would put strategy above tactics and strive for long-term bipartisan support."

Bipartisan support for the Democrats not disarming the people they intend to enslave? I don't think that's going to fly.

Gahrie said...

You disappoint me, Cookie.

Comrade Marvin is used to that.

mockturtle said...

I really hate to copy and pasts but this excerpt from the article is horseshit, pure and simple: "Even before this influx of new members, Romero had already begun to think about how the A.C.L.U. might adapt to its current-day political context. In 2013, during the comparative quiet of the late Obama years, Romero had commissioned a study of how the National Rifle Association—another organization built around a specific view of a section of the Bill of Rights—has managed to operate so effectively as a public-advocacy organization. “The big takeaway for me from that study was that they were able to talk about their work not in legalistic policy terms,” Romero said. “On their Web site you won’t find anything about the Second Amendment. It’s all about gun culture.”

I am a member of the NRA, have been for years, and read most of the publications that are sent my way [mostly by email]. They are mainly about two things: The Second Amendment and legislation affecting it, and gun safety and skill classes available in my area. I'm not sure how Mr. Romero would define "gun culture" but he has mis-characterized the NRA. Bigly.

Craig said...

"Let's compare, say, Nazi Germany and Communist USSR. Let me see: state run institutions, nationalism, government control of production, removal of religion, etc. I could go on, but anyone who thinks Nazism isn't leftist in nature, either doesn't know what leftism is, or is flat-out delusional."

This is cute. I'd love to hear a productive account of "what leftism is" here. This list of evidence...

I Callahan said...

Hahahaha!

That's a cop out. You can do better.

How is Gahrie's statement wrong?

Inga said...

“Even before this influx of new members, Romero had already begun to think about how the A.C.L.U. might adapt to its current-day political context. In 2013, during the comparative quiet of the late Obama years, Romero had commissioned a study of how the National Rifle Association—another organization built around a specific view of a section of the Bill of Rights—has managed to operate so effectively as a public-advocacy organization. “The big takeaway for me from that study was that they were able to talk about their work not in legalistic policy terms,” Romero said. “On their Web site you won’t find anything about the Second Amendment. It’s all about gun culture.” Romero thought that the A.C.L.U. might do something similar—moving out from the courtrooms and into the work of grassroots mobilization, of policy issues and campaigns. What he wanted, he said, was “to give people a real opportunity to be protagonists.”

Newman told me that, in Florida, where the A.C.L.U. plans to spend millions of dollars in support of a ballot initiative to restore voter rights for felons, the group’s polling had found cross-ideological support: eighty-eight per cent of Democrats supported the measure, but so did sixty-one per cent of Republicans.”

I Callahan said...

This is cute. I'd love to hear a productive account of "what leftism is" here. This list of evidence...

Try re-reading the comment. I listed several.

hombre said...

"I suppose that explains why Neo-Nazis were marching at Charlottesville in solidarity with the Left."

Any confusion stems from the nomenclature applied by morons, particularly media morons. White supremacism was not the defining characteristic of German Nazis and leftism is not the defining characteristic of Antifa.

Inga said...

Oh sorry Mockturtle, we both focused on the same paragraph in seems, but we come to it from opposite directions.

buwaya puti said...

The interesting bit is Dershowitz ascribes much of the partisan shift to the demands of its funders. Money makes the world go round, the ACLU included.

As in also, for instance, the Boy Scouts. The funders sidelined the parents, driving people away but preserving the organization. Ultimately to be an empty but well-funded organization.

If the anti-Trump money men wanted to shift the NRA they could try to buy it, as they have bought much else, but that's not likely to work as the NRA deliberately limits funding from other than its members, so there is not much scope for institutional takeover. But who knows, a big enough bribe to someone may still work.

mockturtle said...

"Congressman John Dingell is the one who described BATF as 'Jackbooted Thugs.'"

They are.


They are on occasion.

Two-eyed Jack said...

The Nazis, left or right question is unresolvable. For one thing, there is no universal left-right axis. Russia has a Russophile-Westernizer axis that is pretty fundamental. Germany has a Kultur-Zivilization axis, France has a Nation-Civilizational axis. Each is a bit different and are not orthogonal to any left-right economic axis.
I tend to look at whether movements want to change or preserve the current way of life and whether they are coercive in their aspirations.

mockturtle said...

Newman told me that, in Florida, where the A.C.L.U. plans to spend millions of dollars in support of a ballot initiative to restore voter rights for felons, the group’s polling had found cross-ideological support: eighty-eight per cent of Democrats supported the measure, but so did sixty-one per cent of Republicans.

What better way to swell the Democratic voter rolls than this initiative! Well, maybe not as productive as illegals voting.

Seeing Red said...

Earnest Prole....the wise among us acknowledge the fact that the NAZIs have always been a Leftist movement..so wrong, try again." Repeating idiocies does not make them true.

Let's compare, say, Nazi Germany and Communist USSR. Let me see: state run institutions, nationalism, government control of production, removal of religion, etc. I could go on, but anyone who thinks Nazism isn't leftist in nature, either doesn't know what leftism is, or is flat-out delusional.

Earnest, I learned this in high school. Point by point on the chalk board. 2 differences, one was God.

Hitler was to the Right of Stalin.

That came from Stalin’s side! Tho my memory is hazy. They’re the ones who started it.

James Pawlak said...


ACLU = American Christian Loathing Unmakers

Jupiter said...

buwaya puti said...
"As in also, for instance, the Boy Scouts. The funders sidelined the parents, driving people away but preserving the organization. Ultimately to be an empty but well-funded organization."

As described by IowaHawk, the standard Leftist procedure is;

1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.

Big Mike said...

Repeating idiocies does not make them true.

Then why do you keep posting the same insane ideas here over and over again, Cookie?

buwaya puti said...

The takeover of grass-roots-origin organizations by centralized staffs funded by deep pockets with a divergent agenda is a well-established phenomenon. This is a significant contributor to the well-documented failure of American communal institutions, contributing to social anomie.

You see it everywhere. If a grass-roots initiative is successful, it will attract professional staff, which will seek better funding sources largely to pay for the staff, of course, at which point they are captured by their funders.

It is not well-explored in Putnam's "Bowling Alone", but it should be. Putnam has good points but he over-emphasizes the chicken versus the egg, as it were.

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Inga said...

Why are white supremacist neo Nazi groups in the US not alligned with the left? If it were so that Naziism was always a Left ideology, then this really doesn’t make any sense.

Robert Cook said...

"Newman told me that, in Florida, where the A.C.L.U. plans to spend millions of dollars in support of a ballot initiative to restore voter rights for felons, the group’s polling had found cross-ideological support: eighty-eight per cent of Democrats supported the measure, but so did sixty-one per cent of Republicans."

Ex-felons should have their voter rights restored. If they have left their criminal behavior behind them, why shouldn't they be have the right to vote?

hombre said...

Inga quoted: "... eighty-eight per cent of Democrats supported the measure, but so did sixty-one per cent of Republicans.”

Sixty-one per cent of Republicans supported restoring voting rights to convicted felons? If true, there's a poll that can never be duplicated.

Democrats love their felons and illegal immigrants for obvious reasons. Republicans not so much.

Inga said...

As a matter of fact, why are white nationalist/ neo Nazi groups in other countries also not alligned with the Left?

Robert Cook said...

"The Nazis, left or right question is unresolvable. For one thing, there is no universal left-right axis. Russia has a Russophile-Westernizer axis that is pretty fundamental. Germany has a Kultur-Zivilization axis, France has a Nation-Civilizational axis. Each is a bit different and are not orthogonal to any left-right economic axis.
I tend to look at whether movements want to change or preserve the current way of life and whether they are coercive in their aspirations."


Thank you, Two-eyed Jack, for an intelligent comment.

Fritz said...

O’Sullivan’s Law

O’Sullivan’s Law states that any organization or enterprise that is not expressly right wing will become left wing over time. The law is named after British journalist John O’Sullivan.

Robert Cook said...

"As a matter of fact, why are white nationalist/ neo Nazi groups in other countries also not alligned with the Left?"

Because their teachers didn't teach them properly.

bagoh20 said...

"Liberals", no longer being liberal, became "Progressives". Now, no longer being progressive, as in progress, but rather regressive, they need a new name describing their real motivating values: change for it's own sake along with the imagined superiority of being modern, sophisticated, intellectual, and woke, leaving everyone else inferior. It's very much like the cliques in high school where the rapid fashion changes in dress, language, and other symbols were designed solely to separate the in crowd from the out. The Left is simply a mass of self-supporting immaturity. Everything they do and promote seems designed to protect the lifestyle of a dependent young person avoiding responsibility and discomfort.

buwaya puti said...

As for grass-roots American national organizations, the NRA is by far the most soundly grass-rooted of all those with any power, that remain. Its an interesting phenomenon.

There is such a lack of a center, an organization, to represent the very large reactionary-populist mass of the people, all others having been suborned, that the NRA gets support, both in memberships and in symbolic attachment, that is sometimes far beyond its charter, from people with entirely separate concerns. This is the result of the disappearance of any other suitable organization with the character of one that genuinely emerges from the popular will. Someone could do a fascinating book on this subject.

It is no surprise that the NRA is such a bogeyman to the other side. The propaganda against it regularly flies into the realm of the absurd, on its face. It is usually treated as an independent agent, a power in itself. It is not of course, it is only a power because it has so many members and so many other sympathizers. The opponents really have a beef not with a semi-personalized organization, but with its followers. One gets the impression that its opponents cannot grasp the concept of a genuinely organic institution, not having any of their own, anymore.

bagoh20 said...

"As a matter of fact, why are white nationalist/ neo Nazi groups in other countries also not aligned with the Left?

That's easy. Because it's not cool to be with them. They share a lot in terms of objectives and methods, but don't want anyone, including themselves, to notice. The left is all about appearances - style over substance. Which explains much of their unhinged hate of Trump and Trumpism. They can't even understand it.

buwaya puti said...

"As a matter of fact, why are white nationalist/ neo Nazi groups in other countries also not alligned with the Left?"

There are "brown nationalist" ethnic supremacists all over the world that pretty much represent the entirety of the local left. That was universal. It was ubiquitous in the days of anti-colonialism and later Maoist movements, and still later in the post-Cold War leftist revival. Chavez' regime in Venezuela was very much that, just as an example.

Robert Cook said...

@ bagoh20 at 2:22 PM: more silliness.

Also, there is no such thing as "Trumpism."

hombre said...

Inga said...
"Why are white supremacist neo Nazi groups in the US not alligned with the left? If it were so that Naziism was always a Left ideology, then this really doesn’t make any sense."

Let me repeat: Any confusion stems from the nomenclature applied by morons, particularly media morons. White supremacism was not the defining characteristic of German Nazis and leftism is not the defining characteristic of Antifa.

Historically, Nazism, communism, socialism, fascism were defined by economics sometimes mixed with governance. All are statists, a "leftist" characteristic.

richard mcenroe said...

ACLU founder: "Communism is the goal."

https://townhall.com/columnists/mattbarber/2011/03/25/aclu-communism-is-the-goal-n1167720

richard mcenroe said...

Why should felons' status be revoked and voting rights be restored? Because they're not done yet.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/once-a-criminal-always-a-criminal/

mockturtle said...

Inga, the KKK and other racist organizations in the American south were part and parcel of the Democratic Party for over a century.

Inga said...

“Inga, the KKK and other racist organizations in the American south were part and parcel of the Democratic Party for over a century.”

Yes, but it seems that the Democratic Party left them behind. Then the KKK glommed onto the right wing. As far as neo Nazi types, I don’t think had/ have much use for Democrats or the left wing.

William Chadwick said...

" , , , morphed into a hyper-partisan, hard left political advocacy group."

"Like that's a bad thing?"--Inga (or whatever dopey State-shtupper you'd like to substitute)

Nonapod said...

Racism in and of itself is a very basic and low level set of human behaviors that can and does exist absent of any particular political ideology. It is inherently neither "Left" nor "Right" (collectivist or individualist).

Historically there have been plenty of ideologies that are built on racist foundations and/or have racist elements. I will say that collectivist racism seems much more horrific than individualist racism. When an entire government, an entire nation persecutes a racial minority it leads to horrific results.

Jupiter said...

Inga said...
"Why are white supremacist neo Nazi groups in the US not aligned with the left? If it were so that Naziism was always a Left ideology, then this really doesn’t make any sense."

Nothing sensible is ever going to make much sense to you, Igna. But the reason people say the the NAZIs were a party of the Left is that NAZI was the German acronym for National Socialist. "National" to distinguish them from the Soviet's International Socialists, who were otherwise pretty much indistinguishable. Socialism is an ideology that allows one to lay claim to other people's property. That is very useful if you are trying to organize a bunch of thugs to help you take over a country. Same for Islam, BTW.

Inga said...

William Chadwick, were you never taught not to use quotation marks if you’re not actually quoting someone?

Some people think Chadwick is Chuck. I just don’t see it. Chuck is much more intelligent than this guy.

Rick Turley said...

I'm surprised I haven't seen this in the comments yet:

"A former American Civil Liberties Union president suggested former President Barack Obama was a “terrible president” when it came to free speech issues, during a Friday interview...

Of course she said this and wrote her book safely after Obama was no longer President. Another profile in liberal courage.

http://dailycaller.com/2018/05/28/former-aclu-president-calls-obama-terrible-on-free-speech/

Martin said...

Dershowitz is right. Two or 3 months ago I went to ACLU's home page just to look around, and I was shocked. This organization no longer cares about constitutional rights, it is entirely taken over be left-wing politics, and by "left-wing" I don't mean just a little liberal or left-of-center. Somewhere between Pelosi and Sanders seems about right.

Which is their right to do, but when they speak or ask for money, don't be fooled.

Robert Cook said...

"Inga, the KKK and other racist organizations in the American south were part and parcel of the Democratic Party for over a century."

The Democratic Party of the 19th Century South is not the Democratic Party of today. Many of those southern Dems' descendants joined the Republican Party during the Civil Rights era.

Matthew Sablan said...

It is true. I've watched the ACLU steadily decide some speech isn't worth protecting. It is a sad day.

Vance said...

Look: leftism is abroad in many forms, but fundamentally it all revolves around one thing: the supremacy of the state. Whether it be totalitarian communist dictatorships, Nazi melding of state and business, or medieval aristocracies and unlimited powerful kings, leftist and leftism always, always holds that state rights trump individual rights. Coupled very closely is a demand to allow people to indulge in their animalist instincts (hedonism, sex, drugs, etc). Encouraging that is but slavery of another form.

Ultimately that's the core, identifying feature of the left: enslaving people to their will. It manifests itself in many forms, but that's the essential feature of all the leftist ideologies. As such, Nazism, Fascism, Communism, Islamism, Monarchism are all leftist ideologies.

The opposite, which is self government, liberty, and personal responsibility, is the core feature of the right. Joseph Smith I think said it best: "I teach the people correct principles and let them govern themselves." That sentence is kryptonite to any leftist, who will always ask "But how can you be sure without using government?"

Robert Cook said...

"A former American Civil Liberties Union president suggested former President Barack Obama was a 'terrible president' when it came to free speech issues, during a Friday interview...."

She's right...he was.

"Of course she said this and wrote her book safely after Obama was no longer President. Another profile in liberal courage."

How do you know she wasn't saying this during his presidency? Many on the left were.

Earnest Prole said...

Is it possible to argue that the violent right and the violent left are actually one and the same entity in America, despite the fact that they battle each other to the death on American streets? Sure. It’s the kind of thing college sophomores do at night instead of studying.

I will restate my original point: The ACLU would be a better defender of our civil liberties if it were not a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party. The NRA would be a better defender of our Second Amendment rights if it incorporated into its politics the vast number of ordinary American Democrats who own guns and believe their right to do so is inalienable.

Inga said...

“Nothing sensible is ever going to make much sense to you...”

Jupiter you missed the huge discussion we had about the origins of the Nazi philosophy a few days ago. It was acknowledged by most on that thread that in no way was Naziism born out of any socialism or left philosophy. You ignore the nationalism aspect of Naziism.

“In his 2010 book Hitler: A Biography, British historian Ian Kershaw wrote that despite putting the interests of the state above those of capitalism, he did so for reasons of nationalism and was never a true socialist by any common definition of the term:

[Hitler] was wholly ignorant of any formal understanding of the principles of economics. For him, as he stated to the industrialists, economics was of secondary importance, entirely subordinated to politics. His crude social-Darwinism dictated his approach to the economy, as it did his entire political “world-view.” Since struggle among nations would be decisive for future survival, Germany’s economy had to be subordinated to the preparation, then carrying out, of this struggle. This meant that liberal ideas of economic competition had to be replaced by the subjection of the economy to the dictates of the national interest. Similarly, any “socialist” ideas in the Nazi programme had to follow the same dictates. Hitler was never a socialist. But although he upheld private property, individual entrepreneurship, and economic competition, and disapproved of trade unions and workers’ interference in the freedom of owners and managers to run their concerns, the state, not the market, would determine the shape of economic development. Capitalism was, therefore, left in place. But in operation it was turned into an adjunct of the state.“

I’m not going to go any further here because if was all hashed out last week and this thread isn’t about Naziism. If you don’t know, Ian Kershaw is an well known historian and expert of Hitler and Naziism.

Vance said...

Oh, another core identifying feature of the left is legalized plunder and theft: taking something from one person to either keep or bribe someone else.... all legally, naturally.

Michael K said...

Many of those southern Dems' descendants joined the Republican Party during the Civil Rights era.

This is leftist myth. The old Democrats died off or retired and, after air conditioning made the south competitive, lots of northerners looking for jobs where unions had not destroyed industries, moved south.

1950-3,061,743

2015-4,858,979

That's just Alabama. Lots of blacks are moving back the past 20 years.

Robert Cook said...

"Ultimately that's the core, identifying feature of the left: enslaving people to their will. It manifests itself in many forms, but that's the essential feature of all the leftist ideologies. As such, Nazism, Fascism, Communism, Islamism, Monarchism are all leftist ideologies."

Really? Where do you get this definition? It is just a convenient and self-serving way of saying "the Right can never be totalitarian."

The will to power and domination is an aspect of human nature, and is independent of and precedes any transitory political movements or ideologies.

Fabi said...

"Many of those southern Dems' descendants joined the Republican Party during the Civil Rights era."

Like Albert Gore, Jr.? Lulz

Michael K said...

The NRA would be a better defender of our Second Amendment rights if it incorporated into its politics the vast number of ordinary American Democrats who own guns and believe their right to do so is inalienable.

How do you know the party affiliation of NRA members ?

Gun Owners

61% Republican or lean Republican
~36% Democrat or lean Democrat*
NRA Members

77% Republican or lean Republican
20% Democrat or lean Democrat
Gun Owners Not in NRA

58% Republican or lean Republican
39% Democrat or lean Democrat
In the survey, the 97% identified as leaning toward one party or the other. So, this doesn’t give you numbers for independents.

*The ~36% Democrat was inferred from the published 61% R and the fact that 97% leaned R or D.

97% (who leaned) - 61% (leaned R) = 36% (leaned D).

Gretchen said...

Liberals love to ruin respected institutions. They have ruined education, the law, the government and organizations like the ACLU. Back in the 70s the ACLU was more even handed. In the current century the enemy of civil liberties is the left.

EDH said...

The key test in those days was what I have come to call “the shoe on the other foot” test: Would you vote the same way if the shoe were on the other foot, that is, if the party labels were switched?

Revealingly, hasn't that "shoe on the other foot test" been dismissed increasingly of late as "whataboutism"?

Michael K said...

Really? Where do you get this definition? It is just a convenient and self-serving way of saying "the Right can never be totalitarian."

I will grant you that Pinochet was authoritarian and Chile is the richest country in South America as a result.

Argentina was the richest country in the world in 1939.

Then Peron took them into the leftist Evita direction and they have yet to recover.

I won't even mention Venezuela. They were the second richest in 1950.

Matthew Sablan said...

How did Romero miss the entire section about the Second Amendment on the NRA's website, or somehow miss the button with the words Second Amendment on it? https://www.nraila.org/second-amendment/

Shouting Thomas said...

Really? Where do you get this definition? It is just a convenient and self-serving way of saying "the Right can never be totalitarian."

Don't you love it when a commie starts ranting about human rights?

It's always just a cover. They care about human rights and democracy until they win. Then, it's starvation, slave labor and genocide.

Robert Cook is no different. He's just never been in position to enforce the starvation, slave labor and genocide.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Yes, but it seems that the Democratic Party left them behind."

-- ... Well, if by that you mean Republicans shamed them in public and beat them in war and post-war politics and actual fighting to the point Democrats surrendered their overt racism, then yes. They "left it behind."

Matthew Sablan said...

"It was acknowledged by most on that thread that in no way was Naziism born out of any socialism or left philosophy."

-- It was repeated ad infinitum, ignoring the various left-wing and socialist policies promoted by Nazis, like, you know, destroying small businesses and absorbing them into the state or appointing state-approved business owners.

Matthew Sablan said...

"I’m not going to go any further here because if was all hashed out last week and this thread isn’t about Naziism."

-- Too late. Several posters made it about it, trying to use the unflattering attempt of saying THE RIGHT BE NAZIS, and, well, you don't get to throw a grenade like that and then say, BUT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RIGHT BEING NAZIS.

Inga said...

Hey Matthew, some big thuggish guy named Michael Fitzgerald is looking for you.

Earlier today...
“.. Are you messing with me? Did you not read me reaming out Sablan on the Biden thread yesterday? What did I say about you fucking pinky-lifters whining about Trump's manners? Take off your pussy hat and have a great steaming cup of SHUT YOUR PIE-HOLE! We don't give a damn if Trump is not your kind of sporting fellow. We don't care that you are upset that his pants aren't creased like Obama. We love that he isn't a "gentleman born loser like McCain and Romney and Ryan and Sasse and Flake and Graham and all the many other supine parasites who have been bleeding America for generations. We're on that kind of integrity kick!“

Yesterday...
“Ugh, cuck-of-the-month Matthew Sablan drops his usual "I don't approve of Trump either" apology preamble to swoop in and stand up for the Democrat party member who feels up little girls while grinning sickly and whispering into their captive ears.

Yeah, America needs more non-progs to take a break from pissing on the president who is busting his ass and risking his life for us, so they can rush to defend Democrat party pedophiles and sex offenders in the months leading up to the midterms.

I've had it with you chickenshit cucks. You're all on notice- you're on thin ice, and when I move I slice like a fucking hammer. Don't make a maniac outta me.“

Matthew Sablan said...

Note that there is a difference between saying: "Nazism has left-leaning or leftwing political tenets as part of its ideology," which the right tends to say, and the left's "the right are Nazis and are in no way associated with Naziism."

It is true; there is some nationalism involved in the Nazi party. But... there's also socialism involved. It is the historically ignorant revisionism of insisting that Germany was some sort of far-right, theocracy with a pure capitalist system that the left insists on that needs to be pushed back against. Routinely.

Matthew Sablan said...

Eh, don't care about whoever that is.

Heard worse, from better.

Inga said...

“...well, you don't get to throw a grenade like that and then say, BUT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RIGHT BEING NAZIS.”

Oooooo are you trying to be a tough guy Matthew? I didn’t bring up Naziism, I choose what I want to discuss and what I don’t want to discuss, squirt. You don’t want me to tell Fitzgerald where you are...now do you? You can discuss whatever the hell you want tough guy, but not necessarily with me. Maybe Fitzgerald can hold a discussion with you.

LOL.

Jupiter said...

Inga said...
"Jupiter you missed the huge discussion we had about the origins of the Nazi philosophy a few days ago. It was acknowledged by most on that thread that in no way was Naziism born out of any socialism or left philosophy..."

Oh, you and Cookie worked that all out while I was gone? Sorry I missed it. But I still have this nagging doubt. Why did they put "Socialism" in the name of their Party if they weren't, like, Socialists? Did they know they weren't Socialists? Or is this maybe one of those "True Socialism has never been tried", things? I know you Socialists are fond of denying that all three of the regimes responsible for about 300 million deaths in the last century were, in fact, Socialists. Doesn't look too good for your side, does it.

Fernandistein said...

The ACLU
wears only one shoe,
and its color is blue
Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo

Matthew Sablan said...

"Why did they put "Socialism" in the name of their Party if they weren't, like, Socialists?"

-- The actual answer usually given: Socialism was popular at the time, so they just were co-opting the name. No. Seriously. That's the answer usually given.

I think the right answer is that Nazis had parts from a lot of different ideologies, with the most important part being they're totalitarians. Racism isn't a political philosophy; you had racist abolitionists for example.

Mike said...

In support of Mockturtle's assertions above, I also call foul on the author or Romero or whoever said the NRA is about "gun culture." Go to NRA.com and see for yourself. The chyron across the top are either "armed citizen" or legislative headlines, mostly the second. There are six panels of "quick access" to areas of the NRA Web site:

NRA TV commentary (a photo of Dana Loesch) and a WATCH button
Our rights are under attack and a JOIN button
NRA-ILA (institute for legislative action) and a VIEW button
NRA publications (these magazines might describe "gun culture" so watch out) and a READ button
Visit the NRA store and a SHOP button (the clothes have NRA logos on this photo)
NRA ring of freedom and GIVE button

Color me suspicious, but I think the NRA might be all about the 2nd Amendment and protecting same.


Inga said...

German historian and National Socialism expert Joachim Fest:

“The “National Socialists” wanted to unite the two political camps of left and right into which, they argued, the Jews had manipulated the German nation. The basis for this was to be the idea of race.This was light years removed from the class-based ideology of socialism. Nazism was in some ways an extreme counter-ideology to socialism, borrowing much of its rhetoric in the process, from its self-image as a movement rather than a party, to its much-vaunted contempt for bourgeois convention and conservative timidity.“

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

Nazi: short for National Socialist, as in Nationalsozialistiche Deutche Arbeiterpartie (National Socialist German Workers' Party).

The definitive Nazi regime, the German Third Reich, espoused a "fascist" economy. That is, private ownership but state control of the means of production. (Much like our US economy, where large sectors such as education, health services, agriculture, and much manufacturing, are under central direction of the State.)

Wikipedia describes the Nazi party as "far right." Wikipedia is wrong. On the Nolan Chart, Nazis would score as "Authoritarian," low on economic freedom and low on personal freedom. Likewise the current Democratic Party.

Earnest Prole said...

If I knew this many Althouse commenters were college sophomores, I never would have mentioned the Skokie Nazi march.

Mike said...

Many of those southern Dems' descendants joined the Republican Party during the Civil Rights era.

Only the ones in favor of civil rights, since the Democrats were almost unanimously against them. Leaders like Al Gore Sr. filibustered the civil rights act. To get ahead in Democrat politics in the '60s and '70s you had to have an old-line racist benefactor, like Bill Clinton had in William Fulbright. And it was the Republican country clubs that let Jews in first. The KKK lost it's power as more black and minorities joined the Democratic party. But of course former Klansmen like Robert Byrd continued to hold high offices in Congress (ALWAYS as Democrats) until the 21st century was well under way. Only now is the mythmaking cranking up to try and smear Republicans again with the fantastical "Southern Strategy" yarn, a version of which Inga just regurgitated like a good submissive Democrat.

If so many KKK "glommed on" to the R Party then where are they all? Why is David Sad-sack Duke the only one you can ever name, and he was never even welcomed into the party? I can name two-dozen prominent racist Democrats who never have to answer for their racial hatred.

Farrakan, anyone?

hombre said...

In Inga’s Appeal to Authority, that is, Ian Kershaw, she fails to note that Kershaw identified Nazism with Italian Fascism. In “Liberal Fascism”, Jonah Goldberg does a compelling job of tying Mussolini’s fascism to socialism.

Regardless of what Hitler called himself, he, like Mussolini, subordinated the economy to the needs of the state. Capitalism and free enterprise, hallmarks of the right, were simply pushed aside to accommodate the German and Italian leftist states.

Inga said...

“In Inga’s Appeal to Authority, that is, Ian Kershaw...”

Well yes indeed, Kershaw and Fest ARE the authority on National Socialism, not Jonah Goldberg.

n.n said...

The Nazis were diversitists, they denied indiviudal dignity and made color judgments.

The Nazis were abortionists, they denied life they deemed unworthy a la selective-child... the wicked solution, the final solution.

The Nazis were clinical cannibals, they engaged in medical corruption a la recycled-child, transgender conversion therapy.

The Nazis promoted the concept of Jew privilege.

The National Socialists believed in monopoly formation through redistributive change and single-, minority-payer systems in contrast to capitalism that favors market/democratic resource distribution and retained earnings.

The Nazis pursued social justice, ostensibly for poor treatment following the first world war.

The National Socialists prioritized the collective good over the individual.

The American rights is libertarian.

The American center is conservative, classical liberal tempered by Judeo-Christian religious/moral philosophy.

The American charter and constitution do not enshrine diversity (i.e. color judgments including racism), selective-child (i.e. Pro-Choice cult), redistributive change (i.e. antithesis to retained earnings), and other human rights failures.

Matthew Sablan said...

See, but the quotes you're giving us from them are missing huge things. For example, Nazis actually did believe in class struggle, in fact viewing German as a proletariat that would struggle against capitalist Britain.

There was racist ideology too, but to just... ignore the giant markings of classism in the ideology means either: Your experts aren't experts, or your quotes are cherry-picked. The goal of the Third Reich according to Van den Bruck was to *unite the classes.* To just ignore that, as your quotes do, seems... odd.

Mike said...

Did Inga take her Democrat Racist dogwhistle home and stop playing?

Mike said...

Let's play a game! YOU lefties name a prominent (higher elective office the better) Republican who is a known racist, self-admitted, reformed or not. For every Republican I will name THREE Democrats of equal or higher office who were or are known racists.

Anybody? Buehler? Inga? Anybody?

Henry said...

The most chilling sentence in that New Yorker article is mundane, almost trivial:

In 2013, during the comparative quiet of the late Obama years,

Civil liberties were under constant attack during the Obama years. It represents a kind of Orwellian amnesia to pretend otherwise.

Inga said...

“The Nazis were abortionists, they denied life they deemed unworthy a la selective-child... the wicked solution, the final solution.”

The Nazi’s celebrated German babies and children. Not so much Jewish children, or handicapped children or adults. Nazi’s liked German children and German mothers so much so that they gave mothers of multiple children a Mothers Medal, Cross of the German Mother. Plus there was a program called Lebensborn, in which women were breed mares for the master race for Germany. Nazi’s did not advocate abortion for German women.

Loren W Laurent said...

"If you don’t know, Ian Kershaw is an well known historian and expert of Hitler and Naziism."

Precious.

Did YOU "know" who Kershaw was before you found his quotes on Snopes that night?

Because you keep implying that you have familiarity with these subjects and writers, but you spent that thread posting their quotes which all came from a single Snopes article on the subject.

How did I figure this out?

I did a simple test: I asked myself 'what would a person, who desperately wanted to sound knowledgable and win an argument, do to try to pass as knowledgable?'

So I Googled "were Nazis socialists?" and there it was, the fucking first hit.

I clicked, and -- sure enough -- all of the quotes were there, pretty much in the order they were used.

My argument isn't with Snopes: any site that takes a subject as complex as the one in question and posits that it has the single correct unified interpretation makes me smile. The Audacity of Snopes, maybe.

My issue was (and is) the idea of people pretending to be versed in material that they clearly haven't read, and using that absurd reductionist simulation as perceived authority over others' views.

Further down on that first Google page was a National Review article: "Nazis: Still Socialists | National Review".

This piece quoted from experts, too.

It seems like experts can disagree on interpretations.

And the comparing and contrasting of interpretations can lead to knowledge, and an informed sensibility about one's own understanding of a subject.

Which is what even sometimes happens here on the Althouse pages.

Or you can just Google ones' self an intellectual Happy Meal and play with the shiny toy for a few minutes, before losing it behind the backseat cushion of the mini-van.

-LWL

Mike said...

The most chilling sentence in that New Yorker article is mundane, almost trivial:

In 2013, during the comparative quiet of the late Obama years,

Civil liberties were under constant attack during the Obama years. It represents a kind of Orwellian amnesia to pretend otherwise.


Excellent catch Henry. You know these phrase the DNC-media is trying out, "scandal free" and "quiet of the late Obama years" are pretty bold in their Orwellian character. Weren't we just discussing propaganda...

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Inga said...

“Did YOU "know" who Kershaw was before you found his quotes on Snopes that night?”

Doesn’t matter how I got to the quotes, I really don’t know or care why it’s so important to you, except that you seem pretty desperate to discredit my assertion. Don’t knock google, don’t knock sites that link to pertinent information, don’t be a fucking elitist. Don’t shoot the messenger.

n.n said...

It seems like experts can disagree on interpretations.

Compare and contrast. Fair. #NoLabels #TooManyLabels

The principle of interest is that principles matter, perceptions will vary.

Enlighten-NewJersey said...

Inga, the Nazis where to the right of the Marxist, but not to the right of center on the political spectrum. Many on the left in the U.S. and in Europe were pro fascism until war broke out between the Germans and Russians. When forced to pick sides, the left in the U.S. chose the communists in Russia over the socialists in Germany. The left has been trying ever since to paint the Nazis as far right and airbrush their historical connection and support.

mockturtle said...

The will to power and domination is an aspect of human nature, and is independent of and precedes any transitory political movements or ideologies.

This is what I'm always trying to tell you, Cookie, when you insist that there could be such a thing as a lasting world peace if only we'd disband our military forces. World peace is achievable only if, A: Everyone is dead, or B: We have a totalitarian world government. Which would you prefer?

Vance said...

It's not widely repeated nowadays, but you can identify the exact date the Democrat party stopped liking Hitler and the Nazis. That date is June 22, 1941. That's the day German tanks rolled eastward into the Soviet Union, opening the Eastern Front. Prior to that day, Democrats celebrated Hitler.

But then he attacked the Precious, the Communist Soviet Union--the most mortal sin to a Democrat, short of being against abortion--and ever since then, Hitler represents evil to the left. Never mind that when you look at Hitler's actual policies, they are today's leftist policies. He attacked Stalin, and therefore is worse than Lucifer.

Loren W Laurent said...

"Doesn’t matter how I got to the quotes, I really don’t know or care why it’s so important to you,..."

As I wrote: "My issue was (and is) the idea of people pretending to be versed in material that they clearly haven't read..."

That's it. I'm not commenting about Google, or Snopes, or the writers: it is about how you lazily find some quotes you agree with and then proceed to act as if you are an arbiter on the subject.

"you seem pretty desperate to discredit my assertion..."

Not at all. Although it is NOT your assertion -- you are quoting someone else's assertions. I see no heavy lifting of ideas on your part to make the particular assertion yours.

As far as the subject of Nazi Socialism: I think there are so many entwined issues that to tease out a single strand and say that it is the determining factor is blurry at best, so -- no -- I have no particular vested interest in the outcome of the topic.

What it DID have in common with the Communism of the time was a virulent anti-Semitism. Which is another issue to explore -- why do utopian dreams seem to always end up hating Jews -- but not here.

"Don’t knock google, don’t knock sites that link to pertinent information, don’t be a fucking elitist."

I'm not knocking Google. I use Google frequently.

I AM knocking people who regurgitate the quotes from their first Google Hit and then act like they won the argument lottery.

And I am not an elitist. I would be happy to see many of the colleges burn. And the elites, too/

You do not need a college to learn. You need the will to learn, and the rigor to actually fucking read the fucking material, and not just take the teacher's word for what it may or may not say.

"Don’t shoot the messenger."

You're not being a messenger, you're being a pizza-delivery person for something someone wrote.

Be best better.

-LWL

Marty said...

LWL: Pretty much.

mockturtle said...

LWL: His vorpal blade went snicker-snack. ;-D

Jim at said...

don’t be a fucking elitist. - Inga

Don't be a fucking moron who doesn't comprehend the things you incessantly cut and paste.

n.n said...

mockturtle:

C:Competing interests to mitigate the risk of immoral and amoral people from running amuck.

C is the preferred paradigm.

Lasting? Perhaps not. Chaotic? Life is chaotic, with, hopefully, long runs of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

Inga said...

LWL,
My assertion has been that Naziism is not socialism in its true sense. I’ve said this for YEARS now on this blog. I used the Kershaw and Fest quotes to back up MY assertion. You cannot say I had no assertion to begin with and that I just quoted for shits and giggles. You’re being an elitist asshole and I could’ve found the Kershaw and Fest quotes anywhere online. How dare you criticize people who accuratly quote experts in any given field. I’m not an expert, I rely on the experts and learn from them, as do many many intelligent people. I’m not pretending to be an expert. Don’t be a pretentious jerk, or maybe that is exactly what you are. I don’t give a rat’s ass if you don’t like anyone quoting any experts in these threads. Go fuck yourself.

“And I am not an elitist. I would be happy to see many of the colleges burn. And the elites, too/“

Well then you’re an idiot and an extremist.


Achilles said...

National Socialism is just a twist on International Socialism.

National Socialism is currently the dominant socio-political structure in the world.

China, Russia, every country in the ME except Israel, much of South America are all national socialists.

The central government controls most of the economy through cronies.

This is the model Obama was pushing for. Obama drove small businesses out of business on purpose while he heaped rewards on large business supporters. He favored his donors obviously and explicitly.

He used the central government to suppress his political opponents.

He used the central government to spy on political opponents.

Inga has endorsed all of the above. So has the democrat party. National socialism is just a path to their goal.

FullMoon said...

Ex-felons should have their voter rights restored. If they have left their criminal behavior behind them, why shouldn't they be have the right to vote?
6/13/18, 2:08 PM


Because losing the right to vote has been part of the sentence, forever.

Be careful, Trump liable to latch on to this and bring felons on to the dark side. He already pulling AA's, Korean's, Kardashion followers and stoners over.

Jason said...

The biggest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the most ignorant and miseducated people in the western world that Hitler and Mussolini were anything but leftists.

Achilles said...

Inga said...
LWL,
My assertion has been that Naziism is not socialism in its true sense


Not in the true sense.

Just in practice.

Instead of state ownership the left now prefers crony ownership.

They still hate people who don't give them more power over other people and seek to repress freedom at every chance.

Gahrie said...

What kills me about this who "fascist weren't socialists" thing is the fact that the Left goes through amazing contortions to deny any link between socialism and fascism, but are fine with socialism being linked to communism when communism is even worse than fascism.

bagoh20 said...

Nazis loved dogs, their mothers, beer, and sex. I guess those are all off limits now. Damned Nazis. Does the Left know that Nazis hated Jews too?

EDH said...

Robert Cook said...
Really? Where do you get this definition? It is just a convenient and self-serving way of saying "the Right can never be totalitarian."

Michael K said...
I will grant you that Pinochet was authoritarian and Chile is the richest country in South America as a result.

Wasn't that a central thesis of old school Democrat Jean Kirkpatrick in her influential Commentary article "Dictatorships and Double Standards" that caught Ronald Reagan's eye in 1979?

Her thesis, which has largely proved true, is that rightist authoritarians historically cede power eventually whereas socialist totalitarians don't cede power.

Kirkpatrick argued that by demanding rapid liberalization in traditionally autocratic countries, the Carter administration (and previous administrations) had delivered those countries to anti-American opposition groups that proved more repressive than the governments they overthrew. She further accused the administration of a "double standard" in that it had never applied its rhetoric on the necessity of liberalization to the affairs of Communist governments.

The essay compares traditional autocracies and Communist regimes:

[Traditional autocrats] do not disturb the habitual rhythms of work and leisure, habitual places of residence, habitual patterns of family and personal relations. Because the miseries of traditional life are familiar, they are bearable to ordinary people who, growing up in the society, learn to cope . . . .

[Revolutionary Communist regimes] claim jurisdiction over the whole life of the society and make demands for change that so violate internalized values and habits that inhabitants flee by the tens of thousands . . . .

Kirkpatrick concluded that while the United States should encourage liberalization and democracy in autocratic countries, it should not do so when the government is facing violent overthrow, and should expect gradual change rather than immediate transformation.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorships_and_Double_Standards

Jason said...

Mussolini, a darling of the American progressive movement during the 20s, the former head of the Italian Socialist Party and former editor of the Socialist Party's newspaper even wrote a book called "Trent As Seen By a Socialist," for chrissakes.

There is no end to libtard self-delusion.

Drago said...

Inga: "LWL, My assertion has been that Naziism is not socialism in its true sense. I’ve said this for YEARS now on this blog. I used the Kershaw and Fest quotes to back up MY assertion."

Inga doesnt even comprehend what the issue is.

We know inga has assertions...and cherry-picked googled-first-options-that-at-least-superficially-appear-to-buttress-the-assertion.

Whats missing? As LWL points out, any familiarity, depth, context, understanding, etc.

Expert By Google and/or the classic By Association.

For instance, Inga claims to have a daughter who is a navy corpsman or corpsperson (heh), presto! She is now an expert on military preparedness and strategy and tactics.

LOL

Jason said...

I despise Nazis and communists for precisely the same reasons. But I'll say one thing for the Nazis:

At least they're not infesting blog commenting boards and college campuses trying to argue that "REAL Nazism hasn't even been tried!"

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

I also think that felons should be allowed to vote after serving their time unless the crime was voter fraud. Too many relatively unserious offences are felonies now. It's a felony to sell marijuana in states where it's legal for instance. Isn't it a felony to rip off the mattress tag?

FullMoon said...

LWL slow to anger, whatever the name. And one of the best serious and knowledgeable here.


Blogger Loren W Laurent said...

"Doesn’t matter how I got to the quotes, I really don’t know or care why it’s so important to you,..."

As I wrote: "My issue was (and is) the idea of people pretending to be versed in material that they clearly haven't read..."

That's it. I'm not commenting about Google, or Snopes, or the writers: it is about how you lazily find some quotes you agree with and then proceed to act as if you are an arbiter on the subject.

"you seem pretty desperate to discredit my assertion..."

Not at all. Although it is NOT your assertion -- you are quoting someone else's assertions. I see no heavy lifting of ideas on your part to make the particular assertion yours....etc

Seeing Red said...

Another facepalm

My assertion has been that Naziism is not socialism in its true sense.

The USSR didn’t fail because of socialism.

Venezuela isn’t failing because of socialism.

Cuba didn’t fail because of socialism.

Nicaragua isn’t failing because of socialism.

China didn’t fail because of socialism.

Pol Pot didn’t fail because of socialism.

Because socialism in it’s true sense hasn’t been tried?

And if there was only a certain class if chosen people who knew what true socialism really was, they’d get it right this time?

For starters, maybe they shouldn’t rally the troops either by putting the word socialist in their title or saying it that was a goal?

100 years of misery destruction soul sucking and death, but it’s going to work this time?

Inga said...

The driving factor of Naziism was hatred of certain minorities, Jews, Roma, certain religions, the handicapped. Nazi’s believed in the body politic and that these hated minorities were an illness that had infected it. It was a philosophy of building the perfect race and conquering the world, giving that perfect race Lebensraum. White German Nationalism played a far far far more important role than socialism. But for those averse to learning from experts like Fest and Kershaw, by all means wallow in your ignorance. Keep referencing Jonah Goldberg. Hmmmm, what does Jonah Goldberg say about The Cult of Trump? Or maybe he’s wrong?

mockturtle said...

Isn't it a felony to rip off the mattress tag?

Uh, no. Not for the consumer.

FullMoon said...

Inga said...

The driving factor of Naziism was hatred of certain minorities, Jews, Roma, certain religions, the handicapped. Nazi’s believed in the body politic and that these hated minorities were an illness that had infected it....


Right. Like I said a hundred times before, put a Trump bumper sticker on your car. See what happens. See who hates like a Nazi..

Inga said...

“Hmm, German arguing with svelte Jewish woman.
Not attractive. Reminiscent of....”

LOL! LWL is Laslo Spatula, dummy. I’m more woman and maybe more Jewish than he is.

mockturtle said...

The driving factor of Naziism was hatred of certain minorities, Jews, Roma, certain religions, the handicapped.

Well, let's see. Whom do the Progs hate? I know! Christians, most of all. White men run a close second. Deplorable Trump supporters, too. Would they eliminate us if they could? Hell yes!

FleetUSA said...

A very sad moment for the American Bill of Rights.

Matthew Sablan said...

And? Racism isn't a political ideology. You had grossly bigoted abolitionists.

Seeing Red said...

the handicapped.

Trig Palin

Jack Wayne said...

I am really sick of the unintelligent demarcation of Left and Right. This dichotomy gives us no information. For example, what is a far-right European party compared to the Republicans? What is a center party in Europe compared to the Democrats? I use this scale: Unlimited == Limited == No government. On this scale there are no Limited governments. All governments, all the way back to Lucy, are Unlimited/Authoritarian. You can propose that Nazis are more Unlimited than the USA. Or that the Commies are worse than a monarchy. But at least we have a framework we can use. So where do White Nationalists or Quakers or Libertarians reside on this scale? Imagine the scale is bent in the shape of a bracelet but the ends don’t meet. So Unlimited is over the gap from No government. All the Utopian governments go in that gap. And they are Utopian because these governments are not practical. They will never work because some magic must happen for these governments to work. White Nationalists believe that government will be better if white people are in charge. But that’s the extent of their policies. Stupid stuff. But please, drop the Left/Right crap. It doesn’t work. Even in the USA, both parties believe in Unlimited government: Empire, debt, and a law for every situation.

Henry said...

Good grief. This stupid argument is still happening?

Inga said...

“Whom do the Progs hate? I know! Christians, most of all. White men run a close second. Deplorable Trump supporters, too. Would they eliminate us if they could? Hell yes!”

Really? Do I hate Christisns? I’m a Christian. I love men (I really really do). Most Prog women I know happen to be married to men, most of them white! I don’t hate Trump supporters, I get very frustrated by them. Why would I want to eliminate you Mockturtle? Would I want to get rid of my daughter and son in law!? My conservative friends who voted for Trump? Seriously?

Jack Wayne said...

And there is no such thing as socialism or capitalism. Those words describe the amount of government control over the economy. If you have an unlimited government, then your society is socialistic. If we ever have a limited government, then we will have capitalism. All you people are arguing cross-wise to each other because you don’t bother to define your terms. This thread is nothing but thrashing.

Inga said...

“White Nationalists believe that government will be better if white people are in charge. But that’s the extent of their policies. Stupid stuff. But please, drop the Left/Right crap. It doesn’t work. Even in the USA, both parties believe in Unlimited government: Empire, debt, and a law for every situation.”

Thank you.

n.n said...

felons should be allowed to vote after serving their time unless the crime was voter fraud

Even then, their civil rights are restored after serving their sentence.

FullMoon said...

Precious Inga,
You are winning this argument. Keep it up ! I am convinced.
If I might put in a word, although not exactly on topic, the several hundred Nazis do not pose much of a threat to anyone.Although it takes a certain amount of stupid courage to show up and get your ass beat every time, the more dangerous white supremacists are Aryan Brotherhood. I have a couple in the extended circle, and they are serious. Deadly serious.


.

FullMoon said...

“White Nationalists believe that government will be better if white people are in charge.

You disagree?

Gahrie said...

The driving factor of Naziism was hatred of certain minorities,

No it wasn't. The driving factor was to make Germany the dominant world power. The racism was just the bloody shirt to whip up emotions in the base.

Henry said...

You disagree? said FullMoon

Well it sure didn't work for the Nazis.

Henry said...

That's joke. Gawd, this is a stupid argument.

Big Mike said...

My conservative friends who voted for Trump? Seriously?

You have friends???

Jack Wayne said...

Fullmoon, what I look at is the practicality of the government. Maybe white people do a better job of the government but if that’s the only policy then it’s Utopian nonsense for the most part. Libertarians are the worst: open borders, no war, and legal dope. That’s a pretty poor government. And I get the joke but I also need to explain my position.

Drago said...

Inga: "The driving factor of Naziism was hatred of certain minorities,..."

LOL

This is what we are talking about.

Achilles said...

Inga said...
The driving factor of Naziism was hatred of certain minorities, Jews, Roma, certain religions, the handicapped. Nazi’s believed in the body politic and that these hated minorities were an illness that had infected it. It was a philosophy of building the perfect race and conquering the world, giving that perfect race Lebensraum. White German Nationalism played a far far far more important role than socialism. But for those averse to learning from experts like Fest and Kershaw, by all means wallow in your ignorance. Keep referencing Jonah Goldberg. Hmmmm, what does Jonah Goldberg say about The Cult of Trump? Or maybe he’s wrong?

Democrats are using the government and using bureaucracies to spy on and to suppress political opponents.

Democrat operatives are attacking political opponents.

Obama and Hillary were brazenly corrupt. Obama took record amounts of campaign donations and clearly rewarded donors.

Democrats want to repeal the 1st, 2nd and 4th amendments and are active enemies of these liberties.

The reason democrats insist NAZI's were right wing is because democrats and the NAZI party are really indistinguishable in their goals.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rick said...

Robert Cook said...
The will to power and domination is an aspect of human nature, and is independent of and precedes any transitory political movements or ideologies.


This is false. While there is not a complete overlap they are related. Those who desire to dominate prefer governmental systems which offer more control. Communism was perfect for this as the micromanagement created a structure the powerful could exploit.

Governmental systems which don't offer control are less useful to those seeking it, hence politicians inherent opposition to economic freedom.

FullMoon said...

Henry said...

You disagree? said FullMoon

Well it sure didn't work for the Nazis.

6/13/18, 5:36 PM


True that! And, seems to be a problem in Germany with white govt now. And France. And England.

Jack Wayne said...

Achilles, do you think the Republicans are in favor of limited government? Or are they just to right of the Democrats and way up on the unlimited side of the scale? My belief is that they use abortion and guns as a way to political power. But they also want Empire, debt and a law for every situation:

FullMoon said...

And Sweden

Jack Wayne said...

Rick, I believe that a democratic republic offers as many opportunities for control as communism. For example, the Federal Reserve pretty much controls the world’s interest rate and therefore, the world’s economy. I don’t see any difference between governments. They are all Unlimited.

Achilles said...

Inga said...
“Whom do the Progs hate? I know! Christians, most of all. White men run a close second. Deplorable Trump supporters, too. Would they eliminate us if they could? Hell yes!”

Really? Do I hate Christisns? I’m a Christian.

Who also supports the muslim brotherhood.

I love men (I really really do). Most Prog women I know happen to be married to men, most of them white!

Do you have lots of black friends too?

I don’t hate Trump supporters, I get very frustrated by them.

You just want them disenfrancised, disarmed, deplatformed and shut up.

Why would I want to eliminate you Mockturtle? Would I want to get rid of my daughter and son in law!? My conservative friends who voted for Trump? Seriously?

But you are cool with Obama spying on political opponents.

As long as they will give you their money they are ok.

As long as they do not get all uppity when a powerful prog male rapes a few women they can stay.

No defending yourself. Ever.

Not hearing about Tommy Robinson much are we? Progressives in England arrested him convicted him and threw him in jail within 5 hours and ordered the media to not talk about it.

Funny how conciliatory Inga is now. After spending the entire Trump presidency up to now demanding he be impeached and cheering when republicans were beat and shot.

Inga said...

Look up Hitler’s ideology, Weltanschauung. Use Google. Or don’t. Remain ignorant or don’t.

I have a hard time caring when you folks insist dwelling in some ghetto of epistemic closure, so be it.

Achilles said...

Jack Wayne said...
Achilles, do you think the Republicans are in favor of limited government? Or are they just to right of the Democrats and way up on the unlimited side of the scale? My belief is that they use abortion and guns as a way to political power. But they also want Empire, debt and a law for every situation:

Republican voters are in favor of limited government.

The GOPe is just a wing of the democrat party with a different group of people to lie to.

Trump didn't get elected because of Democrats. He got elected because the GOPe kept foisting globalist shills like Bush Dole Bush McCain Romney on us.

They were all set to give us a Jeb Rubio runoff. Both are liars.

This latest round of primaries is just an extension of this conflict between the GOPe and the repubulican voters.

Jack Wayne said...

I think Hitler was more interested in Lebensraum than Weltanshauung.

Achilles said...

Inga said...
Look up Hitler’s ideology, Weltanschauung. Use Google. Or don’t. Remain ignorant or don’t.

I have a hard time caring when you folks insist dwelling in some ghetto of epistemic closure, so be it.



There are all sorts of leftists explaining how the Nazi's weren't really socialists.

It still all boils down to the same thing.

SocialistsNaziDemocratsCommunistsFascistsGlobalists hate freedom.

They are tools of the same aristocracy trying to achieve the same ends.

Francisco D said...

Classical liberalism has been largely dead for many years. I miss it.

Trump hatred from the MSM/DNC complex encourages idiots like Inga, Chuck, ARM and Ritmo to pledge allegiance to Neo-Marxism. Obama's presidency also played an important role in allowing them to go full anti-American Marxist.

It was inevitable.

Vance said...

Inga, what about Mussolini? He didn't have the racist stuff Hitler did, or if there was some, it was quite tiny. Stop focusing on the nazis and consider the fascists. All Hitler did was take Mussolini and add some racism and nationalism to it. His economic policies were pretty close to Mussolinis. And even then it only started being semi-competent when Hitler got out of the way and let Speer start to run things.

Mussolini's fascism is socialism. Make the trains run on time. Let government tell the companies what to do. Sure, it wasn't confiscation like Stalin or Chavez; but what's the difference if the government seizes your company or just sends a "Manager" to make all the decisions that matter?

Heck, "Fascism" means stronger together. You know, a bundle of sticks that break easily apart, are stronger together. Hmm, what political party used "Stronger Together" recently as their campaign slogan?

Jack Wayne said...

Achilles, I agree that there is a difference between the party leadership and the base. But it’s not as great as I think you believe. Further, when you say they believe in limited government, I disagree. The base wants a smaller unlimited government. But I believe a lot of them don’t know what limited government is because no one has ever seen one. The practical implementation of limited government will be fraught with uncertainty. Any Constitutional Convention we have will only try for a smaller unlimited government. Most of the time, I see people who think a balanced budget amendment is all we need. We are headed for the cliff like lemmings and no one really cares.

Inga said...

Hitler’s absolutely wanted Lebensraum, but he didn’t want to have his German utopia “infected” by Jews, and others he murdered by the millions. Hitler emphasized that Germany and it’s people were one body, the body politic, and in order for that body to survive, thrive and conquer it must be pure.

Drago said...

Inga: "Hitler’s absolutely wanted Lebensraum, but he didn’t want to have his German utopia “infected” by Jews, and others he murdered by the millions. Hitler emphasized that Germany and it’s people were one body, the body politic, and in order for that body to survive, thrive and conquer it must be pure"

Yes. Everyone understood that by the 3rd grade.

Aryan supremacists usually have a very negative opinion of non-aryans.

Fantastic insight. Can't wait to see what comes next.

Drago said...

Vance: "Inga, what about Mussolini? He didn't have the racist stuff Hitler did, or if there was some, it was quite tiny."

Shhhh.

You are only going to confuse her.

She still hasn't processed the bolshevik/mensheviks thing. Inga apparently believes that only there is the iron clad law (like gravity) that if a group is fighting lefties then they must be righties.

LOL

It's more shallow than the edge of a zero entry pool

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rick said...

Jack Wayne said...
I believe that a democratic republic offers as many opportunities for control as communism.. For example, the Federal Reserve pretty much controls the world’s interest rate and therefore, the world’s economy


Freedom is not found in broad policies like interest rates but in small actions like not being fired and blacklisted because you don't sufficiently support the party line.

I don’t see any difference between governments.

Funny, I don't see people dying to move from America to Venezuela, Cuba, or North Korea. You're lucky you never got to experience a police state so your profound ignorance could grow. But under some systems you have the freedom to say as much stupid shit as you want.

Inga said...

“Yes. Everyone understood that by the 3rd grade.”

Except you and those who continue to assert that Naziism was born out of socialism. That was the argument by you folks. Try to keep up. This isn’t a propaganda thread, maybe you’d like to drop out.

daskol said...

The Trump initiated preference cascade. Principled people, sincere people, are denouncing sacrosanct organizations previously immune from criticism. It's notable that this has been "goes with saying" for years, but look who's saying it now.

n.n said...

Dershowitz has Jew... I mean, white privilege.

Gahrie said...

Except you and those who continue to assert that Naziism was born out of socialism.

Fascism was born from socialism, and NAZIism was born from fascism. It's actually historically ridiculous that this is even controversial.

But I'll humor you....OK..then where did it come from?

n.n said...

The Nazis were concerned about Jew privilege. They were congruent or exclusive of politically unprofitable individuals and groups. They were diversitists who denied individual dignity and judged people by the color of their skin. The Nazis were advocates of abortion rites for lives they deemed unworthy, inconvenient, or politically congruent. I suppose abortion rites for wholly innocent human lives, disarmed, decapitated, dismembered, denied a voice to protest, and dehumanized under a quasi-religious regime (i.e. twilight faith and Pro-Choice, selective, opportunistic cult), and sometimes recycled (i.e. clinical cannibalism), is objectively progressive (i.e. monotonic) and liberal (i.e. divergent). Then there are the African Hitlers, who over thousands of years managed apartheid (i.e. political separation) regimes, enslaved their countrymen and sold them for profit, and actively managed the nation's wealth with select redistributive change. They still do, but under euphemistic labels.

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