Golisano's stand over bird poop is just one part of his one-man protest campaign against a taxation system he believes is flawed and inequitable. He's pledging to file a class-action lawsuit on behalf of other upstate homeowners who believe they are being overtaxed. And he recently launched a website, TaxMyPropertyFairly.com, to give ordinary taxpayers the tools to challenge their property tax bills.Note the 2 completely different problems: 1. Determining the correct value to each particular house, and 2. The rate of taxation. #1 is only significant if the inaccuracy doesn't fall equally on particular homeowners. If everyone's house is assessed at, say, 25% more than the correct value, your beef is really only about the rate of taxation. But the bird-crap aspect of Golisano's complaint seems to suggest that he wants the value of his house lowered because of an individual problem and that he wants the assessors to be open to all kinds of arguments about particular flaws in this or that house, which could create inequities for people who don't have a big enough stake to fight over these idiosyncratic adjustments.
Golisano contends that tax assessors often lack the training, time and expertise to accurately assign property values that determine what share of the local tax collection each homeowner pays....
He said western New York is notorious for high property taxes. While his wife, tennis Hall of Famer Monica Seles, pays about $4,000 a year in taxes on her New York City condo assessed at $800,000, Golisano said a home with that assessed value in Rochester-area Monroe County would have a $28,000 tax bill.
By the way, I'm looking at a photograph of his house and it's really — to choose a random word — crappy. And why does a 44-year-old tennis great who married a 76-year-old billionaire have a condo in New York City that's only at the $800,000 level? $800,000 is enough to get a pretty ordinary studio in the Village or a 1-bedroom, 1-bathroom place in uptown Manhattan. She married a billionaire 32 years older than she is! What's going on there? And he has a crappy, goose-crapped place in upstate New York and is getting his name in the paper for being cheap and entitled over his property taxes! Oh, Monica!
I know Monica Seles is most famous for getting stabbed (back in 1993), but here she is in 2015, speaking on some women's TV show about "B.E.D." — "a real medical condition" — "binge eating disorder":
By the way, Canada geese have B.P.D.
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We're going to build a goose-proof wall, and Canada will pay for it.
Canada is not sending us it's best geese. They're crappers and honkers and some, I assume, are good geese.
Upstate New York sounds like a real shithole.........
The fine print at The Daily Mail shows this man — Tom Golisano — is not as unsavory as the headline make him sound:
It didn't, IMO, make him sound unsavory at all. I've been to parks where the goose droppings were so dense that one literally could not take a step without stepping on them. Canadian revenge.
Canada is not sending us it's best geese. They're crappers and honkers and some, I assume, are good geese.
Good one, Meade! :-)
LOL Meade is on fire this AM.
Then there’s the Beach Boys song, “Little Goose Poop”....
A goose poops every 17 minutes.
Most county assessors are pretty open to reason if the property owner makes the effort, but I feel pretty confident in saying that there’s not a comparable out there that factors in the presence of goose poop.
In marrying the 76-year old, Monica may have bitten off more than she could chew.
There are many ways to make your property unattractive to geese. Let the grass on the lakefront grow long or get a border collie.
This guy is a whiny baby.
It would be cheaper if he got a dog. A nice border collie would run those geese away.
the DEC suggests local officials may want to hire a 'goose control officer
Where I live, that would be called a man with a shotgun.
Just iift the restriction on hunting them. Make it a daily bag limit of 20 year round..
You want to see how these geese can make a mess, 13th hole on Odana Hills in Madison It's a par three next to a pond. Goose shit everywhere. Fuckers are aggressive too.
Rudyard Kipling came up with the best word to describe Upstate New York when he met Mark Twain there, “frowzy.” Basically the life has been sucked out of it by voters downstate and their insatiable appetite for taxes.
Coyotes are the best counter for Canada Geese. They should be protected for that reason. What I do for seagulls is keep a jar full of bottle rockets by the door, it works if you keep them from establishing themselves, you don’t have to do it too often in a summer and it’s good fun.
"I don't want to get any messages saying, "I am holding my position." We are not holding a Goddamned thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's balls. We are going to twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like shit through a tin horn!" - Gen. George S. Patton
"It didn't, IMO, make him sound unsavory at all. I've been to parks where the goose droppings were so dense that one literally could not take a step without stepping on them. Canadian revenge."
I'm on record hating these birds because of the effect they've had (in some years, before better control by the city) on Madison parks. But you don't get to withhold the taxes you owe because the city isn't doing enough to deal with the problem that is bothering you.
Get a few working dogs - border collies, English or Australian shepherds -- and let them have some fun keeping out geese and all other invaders.
It's a clash between the "like shit through a goose" simile and the crotchety old man yelling "Get off my damn lawn!"
If you have an animal control problem on your property, you should deal with it yourself, not let it get worse and demand that the city lower your property tax assessment. Could I let mice and bats get into my house, leave them running and flying all over, and then tell the city to lower my assessment to what a buyer would pay for my house in this nightmarish condition?
"Rudyard Kipling came up with the best word to describe Upstate New York when he met Mark Twain there, “frowzy.” Basically the life has been sucked out of it by voters downstate and their insatiable appetite for taxes."
That might make sense if we were talking about state income tax, but I don't think the property tax goes to the state.
Notice that he's annoyed that the upstate location has a much higher tax rate than NYC.
Golisano is known as a bit of a political crank in upstate NY. He ran for governor several times. However, his philanthropic giving is second to none. I was going list his multi-million $ gifts to various wonderful causes from his WIKI page, but it would take up too space.
Check it out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Golisano
Where I live, that would be called a man with a shotgun.
Yeah, well, it's not that easy. Canada Geese are protected by the Migratory Bird Act (which implements a treaty between Canada and the U.S.). And before you start whining about the damn environmentalists who care more about geese than golf courses, the Treaty was entered into in 1918.
He should have paid his property taxes last year, while he still could have gotten the federal write-off.
The seasonal peak number of Geese where I live, Winnipeg is over 120,000. The human population is just over 700,000.
Winnipeg is on a migration path so the numbers are up and down. If you live near water and grass fields then you will have geese through spring, summer, and fall.
When goslings are born then you have to be careful not to get in the way. The adults hiss and will chase you away.
Having the birds around is fun for about a week.
I should point out his one error was giving to the CGI. No one's perfect.
That might make sense if we were talking about state income tax, but I don’t think the property tax goes to the state.
Well, if you want to buy a lakefront property in New York State, be prepared to be deemed a resident of New York State and have all of your income taxed. Rush went on about it for some time. Basically, they go though your home, and your other homes and make a judgement on whether you consider that your main home or not. Why take a risk like that?
I presume property tax rates are set locally. NYC rates are relatively low because it has high taxes on everything else. Would Golisano like to have a local income tax, business taxes, and sales taxes like NYC has in exchange for a lower property tax rate?
Allen said: "Where I live, that would be called a man with a shotgun."
FF responded: "Yeah, well, it's not that easy."
Oh yes it is: "Canada goose has been moved from Schedule 1 to Schedule 5 of the Wildlife Act. This means the species is no longer managed by fish and game councils but is now “not protected” (note this does not mean “pest”).
Anyone can hunt or kill geese at any time of year without a need for a game licence."
http://www.doc.govt.nz/about-us/our-role/legislation/wildlife-act/change-to-protection-status-of-canada-geese/
Some guy who owned a house in the Hamptons got deemed a resident of New York State because is place in the Hamptons was so nice, so property taxes were the least of it. New York State taxes drive out the high income people, who almost by definition, have lots of options.
Taxes are a many splendored thing.
Not sure, Admiral Freder, about the seasons for shooting Canadian Geese here in my part of WI, but there is a season or two every year. I shoot one whenever I want to eat goose.
Also, in Vermont, at least on Lake Champlain, they add something like $1,500 per foot of lakefront to your assessment. I think they were toying with a “view tax” as well, on the notion that if you have a stunning view, it increases the value of your property. So I can see why he might counter with negatives if the assessors are thinking along those lines.
He needs to get himself a Black Lab or two. I guarantee you Zeus would drive the flock off over and over for sport.
"Anyone can hunt or kill geese at any time of year without a need for a game licence."
The spelling of license (and the "nz" in the web address) should have tipped you off. That is New Zealand where the canada goose is an invasive species.
FF: "The spelling of license (and the "nz" in the web address) should have tipped you off. That is New Zealand where the canada goose is an invasive species."
I was wrong. Thanks for the correction.
Not sure, Admiral Freder, about the seasons for shooting Canadian Geese here in my part of WI, but there is a season or two every year. I shoot one whenever I want to eat goose.
And where did I say that the Migratory Bird Act prohibits any hunting of geese?
Canada Geese are protected by the Migratory Bird Act (which implements a treaty between Canada and the U.S.)
Humperdink (8:50am):
"[A] bit of a political crank" seems kind of harsh. He won over 14% of the vote running for governor on the Independence Party ticket in 2002 - including one vote from me - which is very impressive for a third-party candidate. (Maybe less impressive if you recall his opponents: Pataki and some Democrat.) Doing that well without being an obvious asshole like (e.g.) George Wallace seems pretty good to me.
"protected" does not mean hunting is prohibited. All migratory birds that migrate between the U.S. and Canada are covered by the act (and I think but I am too lazy to check, that other countries in Central and South America have joined the treaty), but hunting is permitted for many species including the Canada geese, but is regulated under the act. You just can't sit on your lawn on your Adirondack Chair and blast away at the geese pooping on your property.
"the Treaty was entered into in 1918."
it was for migratory birds like temporary visitor visas.
if these birds are claiming green card status they should be fair game.
jeff sessions rides to the shitpile.
Seles should binge eat goose.
The Canada geese don't migrate. They're there year-round.
"Oh yes it is: "Canada goose has been moved from Schedule 1 to Schedule 5 of the Wildlife Act. This means the species is no longer managed by fish and game councils but is now “not protected” (note this does not mean “pest”). Anyone can hunt or kill geese at any time of year without a need for a game licence." http://www.doc.govt.nz/about-us/our-role/legislation/wildlife-act/change-to-protection-status-of-canada-geese/"
The "nz" in that URL is for New Zealand.
The neighborhood where I used to live was prone to having flocks of geese on our lawns. When they wandered onto my lawn when I was home I'd get out on the deck and just stand there. There was always a goose or two who'd stand guard and when he (pretty sure it was a gander) noticed me he would give some sort of alarm call and the geese would waddle quickly off the lawn. What was interesting was that they seemed to know precisely where the boundary of my lawn was on both sides -- as soon as they were on either neighbor's lawn they'd resume eating and pooping.
Also of interest was that the flock included a few barred geese -- an Asian species. I surmise that they got away from some zoo. The Canadians were cool with their Asian relatives being part of the flock, but I never saw any geese that were obvious hybrids.
Oh, yeah, the billionaire's goose problem? One or two border collies. Geese were prone to pooping up the grassy areas at our office and the landlord had a contract with a woman who would drive up in here pickup with a camper shell, open the back door, and let out three border collies. The collies had fun and geese flew off as fast as their wings could flap.
AA said: "The "nz" in that URL is for New Zealand."
Yep, I recognized FF correction of my error.
The U.S. government website identifies Canada geese as pests, but says you need to apply for authorization to do something about them. I know Madison did a lot to deal with the problem geese.
Dr. Weevil said: "[A] bit of a political crank" seems kind of harsh. He won over 14% of the vote running for governor on the Independence Party ticket in 2002 - including one vote from me.."
I agree with your assessment of his vote tally. In fact, he gained more votes each time he ran for governor.
The Canada geese don't migrate. They're there year-round.
But they are a migratory bird covered by the act so all control acts have to be approved. The control of Canada geese is very complicated (because they have figured out they don't need to migrate anymore). For instance New York had to get special permission for a wholesale slaughter of geese after a flock brought down that U.S. Air flight on the Hudson a few years ago.
I really have better things to do than educate you on the Migratory Bird Act. If you have any other questions about it, do your own research.
Freder Frederson said...
"protected" does not mean hunting is prohibited
Sure it does. Using that logic you could say that white tailed deer are protected. Except for the fact that every year there are numerous hunting scenarios that you can participate in. Fail.
We don't need to ask the Canadians for permission to do anything, because we are Americans and they are hosers.
I've read that these geese poop every 7 minutes.
She's not an eyesore, but by trophy wife standards she's not especially decorative. I suppose the trade off is that you get a child with a good chance of making the varsity. It depends on what you think is best for your kids: good looks or athletic ability. Perhaps for his next trophy wife he can choose a supermodel, but by then it might be too late......If I were a billionaire, I'd probably go the supermodel route, but there's something to be said for a champion athlete. Kind of a downer though if the athlete and not the model turns out to be the one with the eating disorder.
IF this is a neighborhood problem, and it most likely is.......just use the solution that the rice farmers in our area use. It only lasts for a short period of time.
Zon Guns
They are annoying, only need to go off during the day hours and won't interfere with humans sleeping...... but soon the geese get the hint.
OR....BB Guns.
Here's the guy from the tax assessor's office.
"Put a sock on it, boy, or else you'll be out of here like shit through a goose."
You just can't sit on your lawn on your Adirondack Chair and blast away at the geese pooping on your property.
Sure you can. Whether or not you get in trouble for it depends on (1) if you have neighbors and (2) if your neighbors are the complaining sort.
If I had lakefront property, and a neighbor was shooting geese, I'd pretty much ignore it, after asking him or her to shoot away from my house, thank you very much.
What does one do with geese that have been shot, by the way? Asking for a friend.
Chain Freder to a tree, and his constant bitching about everything will keep even the geese away.
Heh.
I was struck by his viewpoint: The Government says you can't do something, so of course no one should do it.
Sheep.
What does one do with geese that have been shot, by the way? Asking for a friend.
Clean them. Skin them, unless you like a lot of plucking and work. Although if these are the fat lazy bastards that don't migrate, they may have some nice goose fat and be worth the work... so ..there is that.
Fillet the breasts. (Check the fillets for shotgun pellets) Tenderize them with a meat mallet. Marinate as desired. (I like a mild flavored teriyaki). Panko bread crumbs and sautee in an olive oil butter marinade. Slice across the grain and serve with steamed rice and fresh vegetables. Baby carrots in an orange glaze are nice.
Make goose stew/soup with the remainder. Wild geese are really quite tough. The fat bastards not so much I guess.
I could take the property tax assessment system seriously if they didn't pretend that they can know the value of my home to six significant digits. Without a price negotiated between a willing seller and a willing buyer, no one knows the value to within 5%. Why not base the assessment on something measurable?
Sure you can. Whether or not you get in trouble for it depends on (1) if you have neighbors and (2) if your neighbors are the complaining sort.
Now this is just getting silly. I didn't think I needed to specify that it was impossible to do such a thing. From the context it was obvious I was saying it was unlawful (and I looked it up, $500 fine and/or six months for each violation), not physically impossible.
I remember being out in Lake Tahoe and seeing the lawns by the lake filled with the goose crap.
So I am with Trump on this: First we get rid of the sharks and then we kill all the geese and alligators are on my list too....think of the jobs we will create!
P.S. wasn't Golisano a candidate for governor once until some nasty email jokes surfaced?
I have trouble believing that Seles only pays $4000 in property taxes on a NYC condo.
But anyway, isn't it great that Democrats across the land are standing tall to try to reverse the heinous law that will prevent these billionaires from deducing the taxes on their mansions against federal income tax liability?
Even California is more sensible than New York State regarding property taxes. At least in California once you purchased your principal residence you can get your property taxes capped ( Prop 13). But then again the cap measure was passed forty years ago when the California still had some sane people living there.
If you do not want to shoot the geese, get some dogs to constantly harass them
If the dogs do not work, get some wolves.
I enjoyed Seles as a tennis player. High effort and a lot of flair.
"I know Madison did a lot dealing with problem geese."
Looking the other way while citizens take direct action is quite effective. Probably happened a lot. Plus other stuff that may never have been reported to City Council.
Find other homes for the dogs before you get the wolves.
Goose sausage is excellent. Brats especially. Best to mix with some pork to keep fat content high enough. My son makes a bunch every year.
The most noteworthy thing I learned in this post is that Seles married Golisano. Why would an attractive and already independently wealthy gal in the prime of her life marry an old rich guy? Something isn't quite right with her, and I guess the eating disorder goes along with that.
1. Her NY condo is probably a pied a terre, not a place to really live.
2. New York City has an income tax that applies to city residents and non-residents to who work in the city which allows them to have ridiculously low property taxes.
3. NY has had a law requiring market value assessment but it is up to localities to implement it - they don't.
Not having enough time to explain X but having enough time to explain that you don’t have enough time to explain X.
If you have an animal control problem on your property, you should deal with it yourself, not let it get worse and demand that the city lower your property tax assessment. Could I let mice and bats get into my house, leave them running and flying all over, and then tell the city to lower my assessment to what a buyer would pay for my house in this nightmarish condition?
It's illegal to kill or harass migratory birds under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918, except for "legitimate" hunting. Only the state is allowed to do that. If Canada Geese set up residence on your land, you're pretty well hosed unless you can get the state to take care of it for you.
We have lots of "resident" Canada Geese in Maryland that choose to live full time on parks, golf courses, people green spaces, etc.
Migratory birds may seek respite within trees or on buildings considered private property. The Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 prohibits the removal of all listed species or their parts (feathers, eggs, nests, etc.) from such property. However, in extreme circumstances, a federal permit might be obtained for the relocation of listed species (in some states a state permit is required in addition to a federal permit). Pursuant to the spirit of the treaty, it is not trivial to obtain a permit; the applicant must meet a certain criteria as outlined in Title 50, Code of Federal Regulations, 21.27, Special Purpose Permits.
The permit applicant is generally a contractor who specializes in wildlife relocation. When hiring a contractor to trap and relocate any animal from one’s property, the private property owner is well advised to attain proof of such permits before any trapping activity begins, as trapping without the necessary paperwork is common in the United States.
But what about hunting?
The Migratory Bird Treaty Act, which implements the conventions, grants the Secretary of the Interior the authority to establish hunting seasons for any of the migratory game bird species listed above. In actuality, the Fish and Wildlife Service has determined that hunting is appropriate only for those species for which there is a long tradition of hunting, and for which hunting is consistent with their population status and their long-term conservation.
Where do you get off calling their house crappy? It could be extremely lovely on the inside. I don’t care for sprawling ranch but maybe they do. What. ViewS do they have? I suspect the headline and article writer seized on the poop comment. Sometimes people with the most expensive property has to put up with bird poop. And exclusive island off Galveston is 500 yards from the rookery when the wind is right the smell is horrendous.
Thank goodness for Gell-Mann amnesia, or I'd never be able to enjoy reading this blog (which I do enjoy very much). Who knew there were so many experts ready to opine and even mock Golisano despite knowing nothing about laws related to migratory birds, property taxes in NY, Golisano's history of truly trying to help western NY, etc?
If you have an animal control problem on your property, you should deal with it yourself, not let it get worse and demand that the city lower your property tax assessment. Could I let mice and bats get into my house, leave them running and flying all over, and then tell the city to lower my assessment to what a buyer would pay for my house in this nightmarish condition?
Unless you're willing to let the Assessor into your house, your assessment isn't going to drop. What will happen is that you will be unable to sell for a good price, and the post-sale re-assessing will mean that the buyer will see his or tax bill drop.
I recall the house at the corner of Commonwealth and Gregory was for years abandoned/being worked on. It was once a handsome house with a very nice crenalated roofline, and my recollection is that it was assessed similarly to houses nearby. When it was finally claimed by the Sheriff, the resultant sales price was significantly under other nearby sale prices (it had little roof by that time, after all), and it was re-assessed to reflect the sale price. New buyers re-did things (and totally removed the beautiful roof ornamentation) and it was reassessed based on the improvements.
When it comes to taxes in Madison, you can't win.
That's the rear of the house, taken from the lake at a low level. It's a really nice house.
Just got back from a little walk with the dog. Noticed a group of something out on the ice of Cherokee Lake. Since Sophie needed to sniff for awhile, I watched the objects for a period of time, then I realized that it was a huge flock of geese. There must have been 200 geese gathered on the ice. While the city of Madison makes efforts to reduce the population- it is a never ending task. In the spring when the geese start nesting there might be anywhere from 8-12 pairs that we see on our daily walks & rums near our neighborhood park which is along the lake. But then the goslings are hatched and each pair becomes a tribe of 7-8 in total. So then instead of 16 to 24 geese hanging around, we have 40 to 60 geese. And since they return to the place of there birth, there are more nesting paid the next year. That is a lot of geese poop!
In 1918, Canada Geese really were migratory. In one of his American Seasons books (Wandering through Winter, North with the Spring, etc.) published in the 1950s, Edwin Way Teale talks about his exhilaration at hearing the sound of Canada Geese, because they are a symbol of wildness, untamable, never staying in one place long.
The really should be removed from the treaty. An issue for Republicans looking for an example of environmental overreach or Democrats trying to establish, "We're environmentalists but we're not crazy."
WTFC
So "Bitter Clinger" sets himself up as the wise all-knowing expert. I for one am familiar with both NY property taxes and Golisano, having spent many years in Rochester during his quixotic runs for governor. I have nothing against him, and would vastly prefer him as governor to the current crook. But as I said above, property taxes are set locally, and vary across municipalities, as do other taxes that are set locally. Does Golisano seriously think that people in Rochester pay taxes at a higher rate overall than people in NYC? It's possible, but he can't demonstrate that by cherry-picking one tax.
“Where do you get off calling their house crappy?”
I look at the photograph and think about the design elements. For a billionaire, it’s a tear down.
If an ordinary person had a house like that, I wouldn’t say anything mean, but come on, look at the roof segments, the windows, the mismatch of the part on the left. It’s a design and construction mess.
It looks like they started with the middle section, and then just added on. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Golisano might prefer to live modestly, albeit on a large scale. But considering how high the taxes are on that place, I tremble to think what they would be on anything more grand.
Frickin' New York. One of my husband's consulting colleagues did some work with a New York client this last year and somehow tipped over whatever the number of days spent working in the state is (in a lifetime of agency work he had never encountered this so didn't even know it was a thing); he received a W2 (or whatever their equivalent is) from NY indicating that he was responsible for state income tax on his entire income. He lives and pays state income taxes in Oregon. What a pile of bullshit.
I thought Monica Seles was a carpet muncher.
I guess she cashed in on the Anna Nicole Smith exemption to the Laws of Attraction.
James K. - show me where I claimed that we in WNY pay less in total taxes than folks in NYC. My point was was directed at Althouse and a few others. Althouse made a comment to along the lines of “can I let mice overrun my house and then not pay my taxes until the Town kills the mice?” Others commenters wrote he should just kill them or chase them away etc. It is illegal for Goilsano to do anything about the geese and the Town refuses to attempt to solve the problem. Municipalities can get permits to eradicate wildlife that regular citizens can’t. See Althouses comments about Madison trying to deal with the Canada geese.
Anyway, regarding taxes, yes they are nominally set locally but the majority of property taxes in NY are driven by school spending and Medicaid, much of which is mandated by the state. It I guess you spent a couple years in NY, so you must be an expert on that as well.
Sorry for the typos above. Typing on my phone and it is so small I didn’t see the errors.
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