School resource officer Scot Peterson never went in, despite taking a position on the west side of Building 12, where most of the carnage happened, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said Thursday.Did he train his whole life for this situation, to go in single-handedly and stop an active shooter, somewhere in a building amid many other people? Or are we really just thinking, how could he not go in and die trying rather than to stay alive only to be mired in hopeless shame?
"I think he remained outside for upwards of four minutes," Israel said Thursday in a news conference. The shooting, he said, lasted six minutes....
President Donald Trump made his first remarks about Peterson while departing the White House on Friday, saying the deputy "certainly did a poor job."
"He trained his whole life," Trump said. "But when it came time to get in there and do something, he didn't have the courage or something happened. But he certainly did a poor job, there's no question about that."
Moving away from the pitiful figure of Scot Peterson, I want to know how much you think school security guards are going to help. Is Peterson the outlier, or should we expect all the guards we hire to turn out to be a Scot Peterson when the crisis hits?
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1 – 200 of 270 Newer› Newest»"Moving away from the pitiful figure of Scot Peterson, I want to know how much you think school security guards are going to help. Is Peterson the outlier, or should we expect all the guards we hire to turn out to be a Scot Peterson when the crisis hits?"
Dumb question. They will help not because they will stop shooting after they start, but will deter nuts from doing it in the first place.
Per the conservative tree house, the school district and county deliberately reduced arrests of students in order to get more federal and state grants due to their improvements in racial equality.
To go this, the police officers most likely to go along with the fudging of documents / miscfile evidence, etc., got the cushy school assignments that even included paid housing near the schools.
Doubt it will be either they're all great or all terrible, rather we should expect that a subset (hopefully just a small subset) will act as Peterson did. I can't say how I would have acted. People want to make him out to be a coward, and perhaps he is, but it is plausible that he was confused, didn't fully comprehend what was going on, or worried about causing collateral injuries. Training should screen for this; nationally our police forces do a pretty good job.
Eliminating the Gun-Free School Zones act and putting armed people in schools would provide some amount of deterrence. Adding some level of physical access security - like we have at sporting events - would too.
-sw
But I think the real answer isn't armed guards, or just armed guards, but armed teachers too. A single guard can easily be removed with planning. Multiple unknown threats are tougher.
Or are we really just thinking, how could he not go in and die trying rather than to stay alive only to be mired in hopeless shame?
This isn't the best counterpoint. Did he really train for this? Or was he trained to break up loud arguments? I question whether SROs even involve themselves in fistfights since most of school interactions are about avoiding or at least winning legal settlements.
But there is one purpose the SRO clearly fills: deflecting blame from other decisionmakers.
He was a uniformed and armed police officer. This does not reflect poorly on "security guards", it reflects poorly on our local police department, who had previously visited the gunman's home 39 times.
While a 15 year old JROTC student was shot holding the door open to usher his classmates to safety, a uniformed, armed police officer stood outside.
It may not be fair, but why sign up for the job if you’re not willing to act in the moment of crisis? Police get passes for so many of their errors of judgement precisely because the job is potentially dangerous.
There is an old Western story about a coroner who brought in a verdict of suicide after a shooting; the deceased had opened fire with a handgun at 100 yards against a man armed with a rifle.
I expect him to work as effectively as the Las Vegas police (who didn't go in until it was over) and the Columbine police (who didn't go in until it was over).
Did this deputy even radio it in?
If he wasn't up to the job, he should not have taken it.
What's next? Firemen who won't go near fires?
He deserves the derision he is getting.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/02/23/broward-county-sheriffs-office-did-not-miss-warning-signs-or-make-mistakes/
Interesting- And why the tape delay? So if anything was caught, it could be deleted / covered up.
Trayvon Martin was in a school district in the same county, that also reduced arrests.
I feel like I am wearing a tin foil hat as I read this stuff, but it makes sense and is probably true.
Watch, listen, I was there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u9Mc9LVbZw
Or are we really just thinking, how could he not go in and die trying rather than to stay alive only to be mired in hopeless shame?
You mean "mired" in $80,000 x 75% = $60,000 of "shame" (with benefits?) per year for life?
In cases such as DeShaney v. Winnebago County (1989) and Castle Rock v. Gonzales (2005), the Supreme Court has declined to put police and other public authorities under any general duty to protect individuals from crime. The decisions have been broadly unpopular, but Mike McDaniel at PJ Media takes the Court’s side on policy grounds: “This [lack of a particularized duty] might seem absolutely outrageous, but it is logical, rational, and unquestionably necessary.”
https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/12/the-police-have-no-obligation-to-protect-you-yes-really/
All the more reason for teachers to carry. They are trapped in the classrooms and can't scurry away.
nationally our police forces do a pretty good job.
Actually they don't. Police make a poor reaction force. Almost all of their training focuses on procedures after the event (shooting, theft, anything) is over. We're kidding ourselves if we think one person actually protects us from these types of attacks.
The most recent school shooting in Israel that I could find in a quick Google search was in 2008.
In Israel, every school with 100 students or more has an armed guard. These are serious dudes with military experience.
We could pay for the guards by getting rid of school psychologists, who proved themselves worthless in Florida this week.
I think the downsides are minimal to trained, armed security (other than cost). Why wouldn't it have a deterrent effect? Obviously, doors should also be secured and alarmed (if not already). And, security cameras should be in place and monitored. It's not as though the threat of a school shooting was unforeseeable before this incident. Administrators have let this slide on their end because the risk is, on the whole, still low.
Old military maxim: when in doubt go to the sound of the guns. Peterson, like Grouchy at Waterloo, didn't.
Apparently Scot Peterson is now cowering at home, Protected by police officers.
In 2010, SRO Carolyn Gudger at Sullivan Central High School near Kingsport, TN, prevented a potentially dangerous situation by holding an armed intruder at bay until backup arrived from the Sullivan County Sheriff's Office. The intruder was shot and killed. No one at the school was injured. This was a big story locally and in the region but was pretty much ignored nationally. You can read the local news article at the link below at the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120308145455/http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9025899
If it is your job to protect the school then you do whatever is necessary to protect the school, even at the cost of your own life.
Would anyone seriously argue that firefighters should not rush into burning buildings? That they should have stayed out of the twin towers on 9/11? Yes, you risk your life when you take up some jobs. If you don't like the risk, don't take the job!
I am well trained with both handguns and the AR-15. The AR-15 is just a rifle. It has advantages like accuracy at long range, which is of less relevance indoors. It is not some magic blanket that wards off bullets. It is absolutely possible for a handgun shooter to take down a rifle shooter inside a building.
But the coward cop did nothing.
And here is a recent case where a police officer took down a would be rampage rifle killer with a long shot from a pistol while outdoors.
The Cop Who Stopped Larry McQuilliams
http://austin.com/austin-cop-shows-crazed-gunman-why-you-shouldnt-mess-with-texas
Quote:
McQuilliams opened fire at the courthouse, a bank, and the Mexican Consulate before turning his sights to the Austin Police Department at 2:32 a.m. Johnson was standing near HQ, holding the reins of not one but two horses when McQuilliams arrived, shooting wildly.
Still holding onto the horses’ reins with one hand, Johnson returned fire with the other. With a single shot from Johnson’s Smith & Wesson M&P; .40 pistol, McQuilliams lay dead on the pavement more than 300 feet away, his might-have-been-deadly reign of terror cut short.
--- End quote ---
Also, as the school resource officer, DSO Peterson had dealt with Cruz previously (in 2016 at least), and was on notice of his violent tendencies. At the CTH, the claim is that Peterson was in a more political than law enforcement position, with his orders essentially being to ignore violence and criminal behavior when blacks and Hispanics were involved, in order to correct the arrest and expulsion statistics in terms of these demographics. In other words, Sheriff Israel was so aggressive in pushing gun control and attacking the NRA, etc, precisely because his policies were a direct and proximate cause behind the violent tendencies and reputation of Cruz, the shooter, being ignored, esp by his own department. All the warnings that his department received were ignored because his orders essentially required that they be ignored. Political correctness run amok.
Blogger Curious George said...
"But I think the real answer isn't armed guards, or just armed guards, but armed teachers too. A single guard can easily be removed with planning. Multiple unknown threats are tougher."
Armed parent volunteers. They have skin in the game. literally.
Notice the usual suspects are absent. Spouting their usual nonsense.
I don't know enough about the situation to judge the guard's performance. It doesn't look good, but none of us even know what his instructions were (I assume dispatch was speaking to him on his radio) or how he'd been trained to respond in such a situation. One person with a handgun coming at someone with an AR-15 is at a distinct disadvantage. He may have been told/trained to wait for reinforcements.
Having said that, I support allowing teachers and other school employees who volunteer to be armed. (Obviously, they would need to receive special training.) That would have changed the dynamics and put the shooter at a disadvantage. Whenever he turned a corner or opened a door, he may have found someone who was trained, armed, and waiting for him.
Ray said...
Per the conservative tree house, the school district and county deliberately reduced arrests of students in order to get more federal and state grants due to their improvements in racial equality.
To go this, the police officers most likely to go along with the fudging of documents / miscfile evidence, etc., got the cushy school assignments that even included paid housing near the schools.
To wit:
Peterson had interacted with Cruz in 2016, according to notes from a state social worker investigating reports that Cruz was cutting himself and his mother was not caring for him at the time. Documents released Thursday by Israel’s office show deputies and social workers were called to the school in September 2016 to check reports that Cruz had attempted suicide by drinking gasoline a week earlier and was cutting himself.
A state social worker noted in the report that Peterson “refused to share” information that he had about the incident with Cruz, but confirmed that a mental health counselor determined Cruz did not need to be hospitalized for evaluation.
I don't think it is necessary to single out this deputy. The whole system failed over and over and that is where the focus should be. The sheriff should resign, the FBI office which maybe "deleted" the January hotline message should see some firings. The county and school boards bear some responsibility for their PC disciplinary procedures and the Fed Education Dept has some blame for the dopey confidentiality rules they have enacted to chase the holy grail of "student privacy". How often have we heard "student privacy" used to hide important info about these student nutcases shooters?
Goes to show the police can't always protect you...you need to protect yourselves.
This is the one that went after governor greitens
http://stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/new-st-louis-circuit-attorney-faces-high-turnover-budget-hurdles/article_42f2a75e-224f-5d5f-96a0-8e2605163da0.html
This topic is not an easy one to answer. Police officers are not expected to die in the same way we anticipate casualties when soldiers go into battle. Police officers are only required to write an accurate police report and provide a presence that discourages criminal behavior. Many police officers will risk their lives to protect others but they are not commanded to do so.
The Florida officer claims his department policy forbade him from taking on the shooter because he felt he was out gunned. Also, possibly the chaos of the event could have led to friendly fire casualties.
I do wish the officer would have tried to subdue the shooter. This is not a good way to end a 30-year career in law enforcement. But his 30 years may have taught him that taking action has more adverse consequences even if he wasn't killed.
Btw, what is the deal with the name "Scott Petersen"? Isn't that the same name of the Chicago ex-cop who killed 2-3 of his wives and the guy in Calif who killed his pregnant wife?
Nice thread with two very compelling counter-examples. So two armed officers did their duty where this guy did not. How could you stand by with a gun and do nothing? No wonder his boss was all over CNN blaming everybody else. How embarrassing. And it wasn't even the Broward Sheriff that got there first. A neighboring town's cops got there first.
"I want to know how much you think school security guards are going to help" ...
... If they do their job they will be highly effective. Effectiveness does not require perfection. For instance in this case, if the deputy had simply directed a shot at the shooter it would have redirected the shooter's attention from his diabolical mission to personal survival. That alone would have reduced the kill/wounded count.
And no, we don't give this coward a pass. It like that movie Fools Rush In when Salma Hayek's character tells Mathew Perry's that she is pregnant. He says they used condoms, she says it didn't work -- he's says that's its whole job, it's supposed to work. This deputy's whole job, the job he trained for, applied for, and pledged to do, is to come to the aid of children under attack. He didn't, he hunkered down and hid for four minutes that he could have done something to end, delay, or merely interrupt the shooter. The shame and notoriety we rain down on this guy may be the object lesson that bucks up the next LEO to find themselves in the same situation.
https://twitter.com/TheLastRefuge2/status/966854507744374784
I do not know the truth of this. It seems plausible and lines up with my understanding of bureaucratic negligence and corruption.
Police officers are not expected to die in the same way we anticipate casualties when soldiers go into battle. Police officers are only required to write an accurate police report and provide a presence that discourages criminal behavior. Many police officers will risk their lives to protect others but they are not commanded to do so.
So we shouldn't lump them in with "first responders" whom we expect to act courageously?
Can school district administrators develop and maintain security systems? Highly doubtful, not because they don't care but it is not part of their expertise. Paraphrasing Rush, as much as we would like to be living in a time where school security was not an issue, we do and we have to come to grips with it. Every school has to be prepared for an attack, even when the odds of an attack are low. Limited access, cameras and discreet but professional security that is prepared to block bullets and give their lives for the students they are protecting is what is needed. Aaron Feis gave his life protecting the students and his actions define "what is a hero".
How did Scott Peterson get off death row?
This man is a stain on his department. He failed to take any action. He could have created a diversion to distract the shooter, or any number of things short of "rushing the shooter." I find the 4-minute wait absolutely shocking and disgusting. What is the point of being an armed guard if you don't use the arms and actually guard the lives at stake?
Sorry, but the man was being PAID to guard the school. This is NOT this first school shooting. It was his goddamn job to go in. If you don't want to go in harm's way, don't put on the uniform and wear the gun. Or change the motto from "serve and protect" to "harass and fine".
To most people, this person was there to take on a shooter in that situation, but for a number of reasons that was the least of his obligations. Obviously not a Marine.
If you required guards to be members of the teachers unions, we would have one in every classroom.
"...should we expect all the guards we hire to turn out to be a Scot Peterson when the crisis hits?"
Yes, we should. Not that I believe they all will, and not that we shouldn't have those guards, but that's what we should expect. You should never "expect" someone else to protect you, or your children - you should always be prepared to do that yourself.
Which is just another reason why the right to keep and bear arms is so important.
What do SWAT ballistic shields do? Could they be used by SROs and teachers to offset the firepower advantage? What would a dozen teachers, with shields and walkie-talkies and ROCKS, have been able to do? Certainly more than this sad sack.
First of all, Mr Cruz being in the school, armed and killing people was a direct result of policies put in place by Broward County. Anybody who says otherwise (we overlooked things, mistakes were made) is lying.
The video of this particular scene with the deputy -- it hasn't been made public, has it? Is the video online anywhere?
This was a big, well-equipped school. Obviously with some video/security equipment. Does anybody know if there is video of the shooter, catching him in the act?
Didn't the same questions about police response come up in the Orlando and Vegas shootings? Isn't it standard police procedure to establish a perimeter and call for backup? Aren't the foolish ones the people who think that cops have a duty to protect you? Hasn't it long been established that the police have no duty to intervene?
"I expect him to work as effectively as the Las Vegas police (who didn't go in until it was over) and the Columbine police (who didn't go in until it was over)."
My memory is that the Sheriff in Jefferson County, CO, whose policies had required his officers not to enter the building during the Columbine shootings, was turned out of office (I grew up in that county, still have brothers there, we all went to school there, and my kid knew kids who went to Columbine - they lived next to the next HS west of there).
In any case, SOP after Columbine in a lot of departments was apparently changed to run to the gunfire, and not wait for the perimeter to be secured and SWAT to arrive, since in these situations, seconds do count. Precisely because kids died at Columbine due to that type of SOP. The problem is, I think, much more with the political correctness imposed by Broward County Sheriff Israel to appease his left leaning constituents, which turned his department into a political organization, much more than a law enforcement one (I am not asserting that there aren't plenty of departments around the country that still have pre-Columbine SOPs for active shooter's in schools, but that they are probably now in the minority).
Cruz did not have a firepower advantage. The rate of fire for his pistol was exactly the same as Cruz's AR-15. As Kevin said, the only advantage the AR-15 has is at longer range. Probably not the case in a school setting.
Dealing with a guy who has spent months planning and has thoroughly cased the scene is not as simple as rushing in with blazing guns.
I don't care if it was his job or not. I don't care what his training is or was. If you are armed and a guy is shooting up kids in a school a decent person tries to stop it. I have less than 1% doubt that had my wife - who has no training other one CCW class -- been walking by and had a gun on her she would have run in and fought this guy until one of them was dead or unconscious. And it would have been him.
I think that they named that school after Douglas to cover the fact that they filled in part of the Everglades to build it.
Moving the goalposts before the game starts.
This is really tough - you need someone highly trained in urban warfare - that's exactly what an active shooter in a school building is - and yet they may never encounter such a situation.
I've seen the security personnel at a Jewish elementary school in Beverly Hills, they look like ex-IDF, they wear bodyarmor, their weapon is strapped to their thigh, military style. They don't appear to be the type to stand outside and wait for the shooting to stop.
I think the eventual boredom will keep most qualified candidates away.
Or are we really just thinking, how could he not go in and die trying rather than to stay alive only to be mired in hopeless shame?
Let's first remember that this is not some beat cop versus a rampaging Navy SEAL. This is a trained & experienced cop vs a 19 year old nut job. Time & time again in these mass shootings, when the cops finally do arrive, the suspect then shoots himself. How often have suspects been taken alive in these shootings?
What the cop could have done was break the shooter's sense of control of the situation. He could have done that with a couple of shots, whether the bullets wounded Cruz or not. Hr didn't, so we'll never know how it would have turned out.
At least fifteen year old JROTC candidate Peter Wang understood what honor & duty meant. I hope they give that poor kid a military funeral. It's the least they can do.
Three seconds on Google gives me Level IIIA SWAT "bunker buster" bulletproof shields weighing 17 pounds and sized 31" by 48". For $3000.
I believe a dozen of those would run less than the undertaker's bill for one dead student.
Why is this defense/swarm tactic not part of standard school doctrine? Those carrying the shields could bring spears or crossbows. It would break up the attack and buy time, so that Officer Peterson could summon the courage to do his job.
You never know how you would react if you were in that situation. It is all well and good to spout off from behind a keyboard but you will never know until you are in that situation.
That is why the teachers need to be armed if they want to defend themselves.
The only sure defense is self defense.
The police are useless. This guy more so then usual. He is just an extreme example.
Is his name really Scot Peterson? There are too many Scot* Petersons with negative lives now, you guys need to cut that out, it's really confusing.
Dealing with a guy who has spent months planning and has thoroughly cased the scene is not as simple as rushing in with blazing guns.
How much time did the officer have to plan? How much time did he have to thoroughly case the scene?
The LEO with the best knowledge of the school and its layout had the best chance to stop the shooter.
Can we stop calling them all heroes now?
No, wait. What do I mean we?
I never did in the first place.
Jersey Fled said...
Cruz did not have a firepower advantage. The rate of fire for his pistol was exactly the same as Cruz's AR-15. As Kevin said, the only advantage the AR-15 has is at longer range. Probably not the case in a school setting.
I think I'd agree. Although Cruz had many filled magazines, right? He didn't even empty all the magazines that he had prepared... I think; is that right?
Still, it's an unhinged, untrained, 19 year-old against a trained 53 year old sheriff's deputy.
Maybe, if Cruz had an advantage it is that he was willing to die? Although he didn't die, and I have serious doubts that he was as suicidal as other mass shooters seem to be. Witness Cruz's post-shooting stroll; dropping all his gear, attempting to blend with fleeing students, and finally walking to McDonald's and Walmart.
Wonder if the Sheriff's have "... To PROTECT, and to serve ..." on their vehicles?
1. About the idea of hiring Vets: veterans specialize in a wide spectrum of jobs other than gun slinging. For the veteran gun experienced, who was the famous general who said to have a plan for killing everyone you meet?
2. Adding more security guards should be a temporary solution that is destined to disappear once we can once again value the role tradition had in the structure of society. Fundamentally, it was the destruction of the family that led to fatherless (motherless? at least in this case) rogue teenagers whose brains have yet to form completely. The restoration of the family depends on the Reformation of the Left and the Democrats.
3. Hillary's "It Takes a Village". That village failed just as badly as the timorous security guard. The village shrugged.
Here’s what I wrote about it last night... from the perspective of an Army infantry Officer:
I’m cutting and passing from FB, so “Chuck” is not our LLR but Chuck Zeigenfuss, who Some in the blogosphere may be familiair with...
Ok, here is my thought... I wanted smarter people than me to chew on it, but Chuck touches on it.
There's an old joke: How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all your beer on the fishing boat? A: Invite TWO Baptists.
People are human, and will in the main react in human ways. You cannot create a plan that absolutely relies entirely on the assumption that a given individual will behave with superhuman courage in order to work. A few people are up to it, but they cannot be reliably identified in advance.
Any plan has to rely on people behaving with ordinary courage.
This is why in the Army, by long experience, we don't put people alone in foxholes, or on OPs. We always use 2 or 3-man fighting positions. In combat, we ALWAYS employ soldiers in teams. We enforce the "battle buddy" concept from basic training on.
If you put people in pairs, or teams, nobody's going to want to be the guy who chickens out. Peer pressure is a valuable thing, and is the most reliable discipline in combat. People don't fight for the flag, or because an officer makes them. In the last 100 yards, they fight for the guy on the right or the left.
Plus, if you have two people, you have the potential for fire and maneuver. To have one man cover while the other man moves. You have more smoke.
More than that, you have a system that the guys have drilled together. They know what to do. And they can do it with ORDINARY courage. That is, the fat part of the bell curve, under those circumstances, will do the right thing. They know what to do, and they will do it so they aren't the one chickening out. If someone freezes, or goes into overload, the other one is there to help him snap out of it. And they can proceed with ORDINARY courage.
A plan must rely on people acting with ordinary courage, not superhuman courage.
The failure happened because we expected one man, alone, to be Leroy Jenkins.
You have a failure rate of about 80 percent.
With two or more, your failure rate falls dramatically, and your chances of successfully engaging increase dramatically
I work at a small town school. We have two SROs in our district. One for the high school/middle school and one for the elementary. They are armed and wear bullet proof vests when they are on duty. No question in my mind that either one of them would charge a hail of bullets to keep us safe. They also provide ALICE training for all of the staff so WE are prepared to defend ourselves and our students in the case of an attack. Every year we train and have drills and our community LEOs and first responders train with us.
I'm sure it is more difficult in a bigger school and community. But if they can guard the banks then they can figure out a way to guard the students. But you have to take it seriously.
https://www.alicetraining.com
Let's be fair to the man.
We don't know all the facts yet, but we do know that the sheriff lied. He said Peterson "never went in", but he did in fact go in. What did the sheriff do besides give pressers?
The shooting lasted 6 minutes. The SRO was in another location at the school when the shooting started, and he went in after 4 minutes. That seems like running towards danger, facing gunfire. Which of you heroes would do the same?
It used to be "When seconds count, the Police are only minutes away."
Now it's "When second count, the Police are outside scratching their collective asses".
It's too bad that Remington already filed for Chapter 11 - all the extra gun sales that this whole process will generate might have saved them.
Ok, not really. Remmy's been screwed for a long time.
Curious George said...
But I think the real answer isn't armed guards, or just armed guards, but armed teachers too. A single guard can easily be removed with planning. Multiple unknown threats are tougher.
2/23/18, 9:35 AM
I agree with this.
Peterson is an officer in the sheriff's department. He is a professional Law Enforcement Officer, not a security guard. But no unarmed minimum wage rent-a-cop could have done worse or less.
"I have less than 1% doubt that had my wife - who has no training other one CCW class -- been walking by and had a gun on her she would have run in and fought this guy until one of them was dead or unconscious. And it would have been him."
Damn straight.
There seems to have been a lot of dropped balls in this case. Is this why the criticism of the NRA and its members is so especially vituperative here?........There's no training to confront death. Sometimes people do the right thing, and sometimes they don't. The same person on a different day may be either a hero or a laggard.
Multiple layers of failure - the shooting could have been prevented at several spots. The security officer was the final layer.
Like the pilot of an airplane who crashed because he/she didn't perform the emergency procedures properly, although the initial problem was that mistakes had been made in the maintenance, which weren't caught by the QA person.
I watched on live television as a squad of cops stayed outside the Columbine school while the killing continued.
That killing may have stopped if the cops merely entered and started to shoot at the floor or ceiling. The killers may have suicided sooner.
The same may have happened in Florida. Cruz was a coward.
Watch The Tower a documentary about the Texas University sniper and learn how he was stopped. By brave men who put their own lives at risk.
"Would anyone seriously argue that firefighters should not rush into burning buildings?"
Yes. They rush to danger, they risk their lives, and sometimes they die, but they don't jump into any fire regardless of the danger. They don't go into riots where they're in danger of being shot.
We expect them to be brave; we don't require them to commit suicide.
Is this why the criticism of the NRA and its members is so especially vituperative here?
"Never let a good crisis go to waste"
Bruce Hayden 2/23/18, 10:09 AM
Me, too. I was living at Chatfield & S. Estes when Columbine happened.
For anyone who is not familiar with how Columbine went down, here is a narrative timeline built from evidence and witness testimony. Document links are at the bottom of the page.
I have saved the link to it for all these years.
It is heartbreaking to read, but I would encourage all to do so.
http://www.acolumbinesite.com/event/event2.php
Obviously, we need more laws and regulations where current laws and regulations were not followed.
That said, based on this information, we cannot conclude that any change is necessary, other than change for the sake of change (and democratic leverage). The risk of someone opening an abortion field in America is still low (perhaps due to the high opportunity cost of a well-armed population), and any response must be measured and proportional in order to avoid trampling civil rights and depriving people of natural rights (not rites).
School Resource Officer is not a job that is going to be filled by "Action Man."
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=action+man&FORM=HDRSC2
When its not boring its going to involve dealing with unruly kids, all of whom are going to have parents who think there little darlings are angels from heaven. Its the sort of job that you fill with older cops who are getting close to retirement and the other cops don't feel comfortable with them having their back. Which is what appears to have happened in Florida.
This was written by a friend of mine who is a (retired) Broward County school resource officer, who knows Scot Peterson well, and trained with him for years. I'm taking the liberty of posting it from her FB page. I know her well and can vouch for her ID.
I am shocked and saddened at the bashing of our fellow Deputy. No one said a damn word when police posted outside Columbine for 25 minutes before entering. There was only one of Scot...he was most certainly unaware at the time of how many shooters he was dealing with..and he could probably tell by the sound of the shots, that he was out gunned. In my mind I can't imagine what Scot was thinking. I worked with him for years. We trained for this over and over. My heart aches because I know exactly what he did..he chose to wait for backup..which in an active shooter situation you are not supposed to do. He probably ran to the building, heard all of the gun shots, had no knowledge of even how many shooters are in there and so he waited. We have always told our government leaders that we are out gunned. The bad guys always have these high powered rifles and all we have is our little pistol. He may have been scared..yes..because it would almost mean certain death. He has children as well...and I certainly don't believe that Scot was intentionally making the decision to save his life over those of the children in that building. Most of our monthly training sessions involve us waiting for backup during a shooting situation especially when we believe there are more than one gunman. The active shooter trainings occurred only once a year...ONCE A YEAR...and during these trainings we are taught to run into danger and not wait for anything. It is possible that his mind reverted to our usual training..who.knows...I'm not making excuses for him because honestly I don't know what went on in his mind. I do know that he loved that school, he loved the kids and he was a good deputy. He made a terrible mistake...really terrible mistake and do not be surprised if you hear of him harming himself in the upcoming days, because knowing Scot, he will not be able to live with this...I'm sad for the children, sad for the Deputy, and sad that it has come to this.
No information provided by the sheriff, even his claim at his "horror" on watching the video tape can be trusted. His officer may have been following prior orders of the sheriff to not immediately engage. Maybe he was cowed by fear. Who knows? We need lots more information and time to process it.
There's an awful lot of inexcusable behavior by those we hire and pay to train to respond to such things. Government fails us and the answer by the screaming gun grabbers is that we need more government?
One thing is for sure. No matter what investigation is carried out. ALL information from such a probe must be completely public. NOTHING should be witheld for any reason. The time is past when we can trust government to tell us the truth.
Most of our monthly training sessions involve us waiting for backup during a shooting situation especially when we believe there are more than one gunman. The active shooter trainings occurred only once a year...ONCE A YEAR...and during these trainings we are taught to run into danger and not wait for anything
This is contradictory. You wait for backup or you run into danger/ Which is it?
Sorry, the deputy was a coward. People routinely put themselves at risk even to protect strangers.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/18/charleston-church-shooting-prompts-gun-rights-supp/?page=all#pagebreak
Quote:
Murray had already shot and killed two people in the parking lot when he burst into the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. Before he could pull the trigger again, however, the 24-year-old shooter was gunned down by Jeanne Assam, a volunteer security guard with a concealed-carry permit.
That was eight years ago, but ... Ms. Assam was credited for saving as many as 100 lives that day.
--- End quote ---
What did this Scott guy have? A single pistol?
What did he know about the shooting? Did he know single shooter? Did he know where he was and his weapons?
Police officer or not, I'd be hesitant to enter a building when I didn't know where the shooter was. Your only chance would be to sneak up on him. Otherwise, you're just committing suicide.
Everybody is Rambo.
Behind a Computer keyboard.
I remember reading that in these situations as soon as the shooter becomes aware that "the police" have arrived, the carnage ends. Just by getting into the building and making his presense known, Peterson might have saved lives. Not saying he should have tried to apprehend the shooter.
I give deference and respect to police officers because of their willingness to take on dangerous criminals. You have to be willing to face real danger or don't take that job. Just like if you can't stand the sight of blood don't try to become a medical doctor.
Some hate the idea of arming school personnel but I think the children are demanding safety and trained security on site is an obvious solution.
If people want to see some real change in our society stop going to films which glorify violence, playing games which glorify killing, listening to musicians who glorify gangsters. etc.
So, a trained officer with a gun chose not to engage, but arming teachers will stop shooters who appear suddenly with semi-automatic rifles?
I told my husband that I expect to hear that this man killed himself within the year, but I hope that he doesn't. God would not want him to do that and offers forgiveness, love, and acceptance regardless of whether or not the world does.
We need to put an end to Gun Free Zone Soft Targets that have become killing zones for the disarmed and defenseless. The American public is coming around to this point of view.
Washington Post-ABC News Poll Feb 2018
Quote:
Q: (You may have heard about the mass shooting at a high school in Parkland, Florida this week.) Do you think this event could or could not have been prevented by allowing school teachers to carry guns?
A: Could have been prevented: 42%
And teachers have heard the message.
Sheriff offers free CCW class for teachers, 250 sign up in 24 hours
http://www.fox19.com/story/37534330/butler-sheriff-im-going-to-offer-ccw-classes-to-teachers
Aren't the foolish ones the people who think that cops have a duty to protect you? Hasn't it long been established that the police have no duty to intervene?
The worst thing is, it is the same fools who are trying to take away our ability to defend ourselves because of their misplaced trust in government.
Jason, thanks for sharing. What this tells me is we can't rely on Law Enforcement and its current doctrines. They lull us into a sense of safety and they cannot deliver. Either we need a dozen SWAT officers in full battle rattle in every classroom or we need to learn better how to defend ourselves and our children. I ask again, why not train teachers to use SWAT bulletproof shields to help get their kids to safety and/or engage the killer, even if only with rocks and sticks? What about a face-full of fire-extinguisher, FFS? There are lots of options short of reenacting the OK Corral, that will improve the odds.
As for the apologetics for "Officer" Peterson, sorry. Not persuaded. He should not have taken the job. Or he should have insisted on redefining the job as one that had at least some chance of success.
I teach in a suburban California high school, and I would carry if they let me.
"Police officer" Scott - looks like an old man and out of shape - probably why he had this duty for the past 10 years.
did any thoughts about distracting the shooter even cross his mind? leave alone taking him down!!
in Broward county per policy - he has been trained and required to under-rate and under-report "happenings"
Robert Cook,
Teachers repeatedly endanger their lives, sometimes sacrificing them, in these situations. So yes, having some teachers, or other staff, armed likely would have resulted in reduced deaths and injuries to the students.
"The worst thing is, it is the same fools who are trying to take away our ability to defend ourselves because of their misplaced trust in government."
Who are these people? Who wants to take away everyone's guns? This is a dishonest talking point. Advocates for stricter gun laws simply want better controls placed on the process of buying guns: who can buy them, how quickly and easily they can buy them, and the kind of weapons they can buy.
We license people before they can drive motor vehicles, so why is it unreasonable to license those who want to buy and use guns?
Robert Cook: Who are these people? Who wants to take away everyone's guns? This is a dishonest talking point.
No one wants to ban guns. Ever! It's a crazy and paranoid idea!
Hawaii, Which Registers Guns and Medical Marijuana Users, Starts Disarming Patients
Quote:
Hawaii is one of 29 states that allow medical use of marijuana, but it is the only state that requires registration of all firearms. ...you can probably surmise what this means for patients who use cannabis as a medicine, which Hawaii allows them to do only if they register with the state. This month many of them received a letter from Honolulu Police Chief Susan Ballard, instructing them to turn in their guns.
"Your medical marijuana use disqualifies you from ownership of firearms and ammunition," Ballard says in the November 13 letter, which Leafly obtained this week after Russ Belville noted it in his Marijuana Agenda podcast. "If you currently own or have any firearms, you have 30 days upon receipt of this letter to voluntarily surrender your firearms, permit, and ammunition to the Honolulu Police Department (HPD)...
Who are these people? Who wants to take away everyone's guns?
The Left and the MSM.
This is a dishonest talking point. Advocates for stricter gun laws simply want better controls placed on the process of buying guns: who can buy them, how quickly and easily they can buy them, and the kind of weapons they can buy.
Now. That's what they said in Australia too...right up until they had the power to try and take the guns.
We license people before they can drive motor vehicles, so why is it unreasonable to license those who want to buy and use guns?
There is no Constitutional right to drive a car.
Who are these people? Who wants to take away everyone's guns?
So, you didn't see that CNN "townhall?"
“There's an old joke: How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all your beer on the fishing boat? A: Invite TWO Baptists.”
Out west, they say the same thing about Mormons.
Jason wrote: "Here’s what I wrote about it last night... from the perspective of an Army infantry Officer:"
That was really interesting and sounds true. I wonder if this guy (Scot Peterson, who I really do feel sorry for at some level) knew he was being captured on video. Have to think that knowing your actions could end up being viewed by millions would also have at least some impact on motivation.
"Cruz had many filled magazines"
What kind of a 'tard doesn't think that's a big advantage over a cop with MAYBE a ten-capacity mag and two or three more on his belt? And Cruz had a RIFLE. If it was a carbine, it had, in the close quarters-to-medium-and-long distances of a school building, the accuracy advantage of a rifle combined with the maneuverability of a handgun.
"When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true."
Opportunists on every street corner and under every bush. The Sheriff’s rage at the NRA on Wednesday seems as hollow as his rage at his employee on Thursday. CNN gives a masterclass in bad faith “news”. The NRA gets thousands of new members. Traumatised children are hustled up the Tallahassee for their 15 seconds on television. Disputes break out over what the script was supposed to be. Trump senses blood in the water at the FBI and adds his own Trump (tm) branded chum. The GOP says what about that Bernie Bro who shot Scalise? The Dems cry it’s for the children.
This encapsulates in a week the public discourse problems of the last twenty years. To quote The Misfit, “Jesus was the only One that raised the dead and He shouldn’t have done it. He thown everything off balance. If He did what He said, then it’s nothing for you to do but thow away everything and follow Him, and if He didn’t, then it’s nothing for you to do but enjoy the few minutes you got left the best way you can—by killing somebody or burning down his house or doing some other meanness to him.”
A good man is hard to find.
As I wrote late last night- the police are not there to protect you- that is your job, not his. To teach people otherwise is criminal.
"When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true."
Nonsense. Maybe at opposite ends of a football field, maybe. Inside a building - not really. And even outside a building:
The Cop Who Stopped Larry McQuilliams
Quote:
McQuilliams opened fire at the courthouse, a bank, and the Mexican Consulate before turning his sights to the Austin Police Department at 2:32 a.m. Johnson was standing near HQ, holding the reins of not one but two horses when McQuilliams arrived, shooting wildly.
Still holding onto the horses’ reins with one hand, Johnson returned fire with the other. With a single shot from Johnson’s Smith & Wesson M&P; .40 pistol, McQuilliams lay dead on the pavement more than 300 feet away, his might-have-been-deadly reign of terror cut short.
Cook: That you don't recognize the difference between an armed security away from the action and a armed teacher being the target of the action...and that they may behave differently just shows how unserious your thinking is.
Put a little more work in, Cookie. Maybe you'll get better.
"When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true."
And Clint Eastwood proved it wrong (by cheating, essentially wearing body armor).
Who are these people? Who wants to take away everyone's guns? This is a dishonest talking point.
Actually, the problem comes in when you try to define which guns people are allowed to have under any of the liberal's proposed laws. For example Rubio pointed out that an assault weapons ban "would literally ban every semi-automatic rifle that's sold in America" and the crowd cheered.
Of course, I doubt that more than a handful of people in that audience could have defined what constitutes a semi-automatic weapon.
So yes, when liberals say: "we should ban this gun and this gun, etc." it is perfectly reasonable to point out that the practical implication of their proposed law is to ban every gun.
The dishonesty lies with those who argue this issue without knowing the facts, armed only with their belief that "guns are bad".
And Clint Eastwood proved it wrong (by cheating, essentially wearing body armor).
Why they didn't just shoot Clint in the head, I still don't understand.
There have been a number of mass shooting incidents where the shooter meekly surrendered or shot himself when confronted by uniformed policemen shooting back. Peterson should have known that, but I suspect that in Sheriff Israel's department he and other resource officers were poorly trained and selected from the dregs of the department.
Homo sapiens is a successful species partly because men do their best to save women and children at the risk of their own lives. When Peterson faced his test, he failed. If I'd been there, I'd have been shot or Cruz would have been shot or both. I know that because I've already faced the test where I put my body between women and danger, and passed handily.
So yes, when liberals say: "we should ban this gun and this gun, etc." it is perfectly reasonable to point out that the practical implication of their proposed law is to ban every gun.
Well, now who is being dishonest? Banning semi automatics (and I think there are very few who would ban semi automatic handguns) would not ban every gun. In the long history of firearms, semi automatics have only been for a little over 130 years.
So, a trained officer with a gun chose not to engage, but arming teachers will stop shooters who appear suddenly with semi-automatic rifles?
Cookie, the coach died shielding students. The JROTC kid died helping students escape.
Nobody is saying all teachers should be armed. The point is that those who WISH TO BE ARMED are not allowed to do so.
California, in its infinite wisdom, is passing a bill to deny any exception to the the ban on armed teachers.
The "semi-automatic rifles" comment suggest you know nothing about guns and what the issues are. A "semi-automatic rifle" shoots at the same rate as a semi-automatic pistol.
In close quarters, it is probably less accurate.
" In the long history of firearms, semi automatics have only been for a little over 130 years."
So ? Would you ban automatic transmissions to reduce auto deaths?
They have only been around for 50 years.
The level of debate is getting worse, not better
And the U.S. was the only country in during World War II whose standard issue infantry rifle was a semi-automatic. There would be plenty of long guns capable of killing plenty of people (just not as rapidly) if semi automatics were banned. Heck, the proficiency standard for the British Army in World War I with a Lee Enfield was 20 to 30 aimed shots a minute.
I expect to hear that this man killed himself within the year
He did not affirmatively participate or contribute to the commission of an elective abortion, but was a coward, a lesser sin. He was tested and failed. He should repent, reassess his life, and strive to improve his stature.
During CNN's town hall the county sheriff had to know, but the NRA is at fault.
“Why they didn't just shoot Clint in the head, I still don't understand.”
The shooter was aiming at Eastwood’s heart, and, indeed, very accurately hit him repeatedly there, any of which shots probably would have been fatal - if Eastwood hadn’t fabricated himself that body armor. It should have worked. All was revealed, when he pulled back his serape, showing the steel plate with all the accurate hits, dropped it, drew his handgun, and shot the guy with the rifle.
Would you ban automatic transmissions to reduce auto deaths?
Is there any evidence at all that automatic transmissions increase auto deaths?
Now who is being ridiculous.
Why wait for backup? Why not just go get some coffee and donuts? He's bound to run out of ammunition eventually.
Cookie: So, a trained officer with a gun chose not to engage, but arming teachers will stop shooters who appear suddenly with semi-automatic rifles?
JFC are libtards born this stupid and obtuse? Or do they take lessons from NEA teachers along the way?
His first mistake was not changing his name - Scott Peterson murdered his wife Laci in 2002. "Trump Suggests Teachers Get a ‘Bit of a Bonus’ to Carry Guns" (New York Times headline). Is a small bonus worth it to face a homicidal, well-armed, active shooter? The carnage may have been worse if it were not for...cellphones. There were probably numerous 911 phone calls from the well-armed-with-cellphones pupils. Of course the solution is that there needed to be an after-school gun club. Don't show up to high school unless you're packing heat. The victims have no one to blame, but their defenseless selves. This is God's will. Right mockturtle, and Billy Graham? God is a member of the NRA and doesn't make mistakes. This is part of His inscrutable, unfathomable plan for us mere mortals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Peterson
A "semi-automatic rifle" shoots at the same rate as a semi-automatic pistol.
You think I am dumber than I am. I realize that. But rifles generally have higher capacity magazines and are more accurate. Of course, magazine sizes would also be restricted in my acceptable world (if you can't killing what you are aiming at with 10 bullets, you shouldn't have a gun).
Let's go with a 'low risk' intervention.
If Peterson had just entered the school and shot his gun once, the shooter is now going to be distracted A LOT.
How many kids could escape in even a 30 second pause? How accurate is a shooter looking over his shoulder?
Now, it took me 15 seconds to think of that and I have zero training. THIS IS HIS JOB! He should have thought of this before he took the gig.
Yup. He's a semi retired older gent. I am not expecting Bruce Willis. But I am at least expecting the guy who shot Fritz at the end. Cover the kids at the door way for God's sakes!
Criminals don't give a shit what size magazines you think they should be allowed to have.
Blogger Bruce Hayden said...
The shooter was aiming at Eastwood’s heart, and, indeed, very accurately hit him repeatedly there, any of which shots probably would have been fatal - if Eastwood hadn’t fabricated himself that body armor. It should have worked. All was revealed, when he pulled back his serape, showing the steel plate with all the accurate hits, dropped it, drew his handgun, and shot the guy with the rifle
Yes, I've seen the movie multiple times and still I'm left with the question: the guy has more than one bullet and after repeatedly firing into Clint's torso with no effect, the natural response should be: "well 'f this. The guy must have some trick under his serape. I'll just shoot him in the head..."
Blogger Jason said...
Criminals don't give a shit what size magazines you think they should be allowed to have.
This kid must have been a poor reader as well; otherwise the gun-free zone sign would have turned him back.
If Peterson had just entered the school and shot his gun once, the shooter is now going to be distracted A LOT.
Really, you think that one shot when the hallways are echoing with gunshots is going to distract him?
You don't know much about the dynamics of sound.
>>But his 30 years may have taught him that taking action has more adverse consequences even if he wasn't killed.
More adverse than 17 kids getting shot to death while he did nothing? THere was a lunatic with an AR running around shooting kids. I don't see any way he could have made that worse.
As to his being "outgunned", compare and contrast with the *unarmed* American who charged a terrorist with a full auto AK47.
He had a duty to act. He failed. Kids died because of that.
Criminals don't give a shit what size magazines you think they should be allowed to have.
Well this kid wasn't a criminal (or at least had not committed any crimes that would have prohibited from owning a gun) until he started killing people. And where do you think criminals get their guns and magazines anyway?
Robert Cook: We license people before they can drive motor vehicles, so why is it unreasonable to license those who want to buy and use guns?
Notice how "license people before they can drive" sneakily becomes "license those who want to buy"?
You don't need a license or registration to buy or own a car. You don't even need a license or registration to drive a car on private property. There's no background check (or even ID required) to buy a car, and no legal limit on how many you can buy at one time.
Anytime someone says we should regulate guns like we regulate cars, I say, "All right, let's do it!" But they never really mean it.
Of course the solution is that there needed to be an after-school gun club.
Those already exist.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=High+School+Shooting+Sports&FORM=RESTAB
The best movie take of the pistol vs rifle is, in my opinion, Quigley Down Under. It is capped off by the duel between Tom Selleck and the late, great Alan Rickman.
Four Minutes is an eternity in this situation. I hope officer Peterson faces his own eternity.
Cookster lies ....
"We license people before they can drive motor vehicles, so why is it unreasonable to license those who want to buy and use guns?"
Anyone who wants to can buy as many cars as he likes. It's only if he wants to drive them on the public roads that he needs a license. The situation is more restrictive in the case of guns. You can't buy one without a background check. And you need a license (permit) to carry one legally. So, we already "license those who want to buy and use guns". What you really want to do is register my guns, so when you are ready, you can send a cop to kick in my door and shoot me for owning one. And don't think I don't know it, Cookie. Don't think I don't know it.
What is faintly amusing to me is that the same people defending this deputy for not shooting a White kid he should have are the same ones attacking cops for shooting Black kids they should have.
What about issuing bulletproof vests and helmets to the students? Some of those students might still be alive Goddangit! I'm surprised that Trump didn't think of it first. If not President Trump, then Don, Jr. who is an accomplished big game, trophy hunter. There's nothing quite like trekking in the Alaskan Wilderness with a big bear head on your back. Try it, you might like it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_hunting
@Jason -- Thanks for posting. I too dislike the school resource officer being scapegoated. Whether or not Officer Peterson should have acted differently, we will never know if it would have made any difference.
“I am shocked and saddened at the bashing of our fellow Deputy. No one said a damn word when police posted outside Columbine for 25 minutes before entering. There was only one of Scot...he was most certainly unaware at the time of how many shooters he was dealing with..and he could probably tell by the sound of the shots, that he was out gunned. In my mind I can't imagine what Scot was thinking. I worked with him for years. We trained for this over and over. My heart aches because I know exactly what he did..he chose to wait for backup..which in an active shooter situation you are not supposed to do. He probably ran to the building, heard all of the gun shots, had no knowledge of even how many shooters are in there and so he waited. We have always told our government leaders that we are out gunned. The bad guys always have these high powered rifles and all we have is our little pistol. He may have been scared..yes..because it would almost mean certain death....”
I should note that .223/5.56 is not a high powered round. Cruz was not using a high powered rifle. And, I don’t find the claim that Peterson would have faced certain death credible. And, as noted above, Columbine was why SOP for active shooters was changed in much of the country.
But I think that maybe one thing that has not been reported is that the Broward County SO is very likely in full on BLM defense. Sheriff Israel is clearly seriously PC. Which means that he is unlikely to support his deputies if they happened to kill someone of an inconvenient ethnicity. We have seen police in Dem controlled big cities across the country step back, and quit running to the gunfire, knowing that their bosses won’t have their backs. And knowing that they are being targeted for assassination by criminal elements, with apparent impunity.
One of my dear friends is a police officer, and she says this is a training issue. In our small community, our officers are trained to stop the threat. Not wait for SWAT.
Either this officer violated department protocol, or the department didn't train him to stop the threat.
Given what is coming out about this mess, I suspect the department is rotten from the head down.
If you haven't been shot at, don't throw stones. You have no idea what that is REALLY like.
Trained guards will prevent shooters from even starting, but don't expect much 'courage' from them unless they are former Army or USMC.
You'll get the courage factor thrown in when you train and arm teachers.
It's like breakfast of ham and eggs: The chicken is involved. The pig is committed.
"What is faintly amusing to me is that the same people defending this deputy for not shooting a White kid he should have are the same ones attacking cops for shooting Black kids they should have." -Gahrie
Because shooting black kids is so damn amusing. They're all thugs, you know. Just ask Michael Dunn about that.
https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/01/justice/michael-dunn-loud-music-verdict/index.html
Oh, in four + minutes of active shooting? It would have made a huge difference.
Trumpit:
Go fuck yourself you wanker.
Namaste
Really, you think that one shot when the hallways are echoing with gunshots is going to distract him?
You don't know much about the dynamics of sound.
I know the noise of a round impacting a wall a few feet from your head has a way of capturing one's attention.
"Dynamics of sound?"
What a bullshit argument.
Fake and slanderous news. Although their specific charter is to enforce the law (use force to compel compliance), law enforcement officers proclaim in their motto a PRIMARY duty "to PROTECT and serve."
These dedicated, specially trained individuals stand always ready to PROTECT me. I am ready to give up my guns. WTPTFMCDH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTM3Z1pdl5M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhgagh4yz7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQHn3edjo54
Confiscating all the firearms isn't going to happen.
“Well this kid wasn't a criminal (or at least had not committed any crimes that would have prohibited from owning a gun) until he started killing people. And where do you think criminals get their guns and magazines anyway?”
Respectfully disagree. He had committed multiple crimes that would have disqualified him. But, like with Trayvon Martin, that was being studiously ignored by both the school district and sheriff’s office. Better to have said that he had never been arrested for or convicted of committing such crimes. County and school district policy was essentially to ignore crimes committed by juveniles of inconvenient and politically correct ethnicities.
Trumpit: you sound like Obama with that straw man argument about issuing Kevlar body armor to all the kids. Don't exaggerate and then expect to be taken at all seriously. My notion of SWAT shields is like fire extinguishers. Put a few dozen in locked cabinets around the school. Give trained teachers the keys. Issue them a walkie-talkie as well so they can coordinate. Make them spend an hour a month practicing basic safety drills with the local police and resident security team.
Cost? $3000 a shield (retail). Training budget: maybe 25 people at 20 hours a year at $100 an hour = $50K. Plus doughnuts and coffee. Call it $100K a year. In a school of 500 kids, that's $200 a student. The price of another textbook on Post-Modern Gender Studies. A lot cheaper than mass ambulance runs to the ER, weeks in ICU, a string of funerals and life in a wheelchair.
google Grady Judd in Polk County FL.
If a school shooting starts there, it is likely to be met immediately with school officer, soon joined by a dog, a pissed off Deputy, and more than likely a teacher with an illegal gun in his desk
I'm looking forward to learning about how many times Cruz threatened other students in the school. It certainly seems that it was common knowledge among the students that he had threatened people many times. Threatening is a felony in Florida, under Florida Statutes 836.05. We also know he had held a gun to someone's head at some point.
As the school resources officer, Peterson likely had many opportunities to arrest Cruz for threats, or other offenses.
Why didn't he?
Did he train his whole life for this situation, to go in single-handedly and stop an active shooter, somewhere in a building amid many other people?
he certainly did his whole professional life...thirty years I believe.
Or are we really just thinking, how could he not go in and die trying rather than to stay alive only to be mired in hopeless shame?
I know I am. If I had reacted the way he did, I would have eaten my gun when they brought the first body out.
Personally I think they should give Peterson a tour of the morgue, show him the 17 bodies, then leave him alone in a sealed room with his service gun and one round. Instead they're giving him more and better protection than they gave those 17 victims.
Remind me of any other situation where armed guards -- or armed populace -- did not attempt to stop the killing.
I can think of several offhand in which the guard or a member of the populace did stop a shooting.
Well this kid wasn't a criminal (or at least had not committed any crimes that would have prohibited from owning a gun) until he started killing people
He should have been confined in a mental institution.
The sheriff should resign, the FBI office which maybe "deleted" the January hotline message should see some firings.
It's not like they served ribs and cornbread or something.
"He should have been confined in a mental institution."
Which one you at?
We will never know for sure, but I'm not sure Cruz would have continued his rampage if he had heard gunfire that was identifiably not his own.
He seems not to have wanted to die. He might have been willing to exchange gunfire with another person but the arrest video does not reveal any such inclination.
The officer should not have marched down some long hallway in full view of a person with a rifle. But neither should he have sheltered in place.
At least make a commotion. These sorts of killers take the path of least resistance. Be that resistance, officer.
Remember -- when the left wants to have a conversation about guns, you'll be having it with people who emote like Field Marshall Freder and Beloved Comrade Armapov.
"He seems not to have wanted to die." Are you going to feed his nine children after he's shot to death by a nutcase? Show me the money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA
The Department of Pre-Crime has failed us again!
Trump should cut its budget. They'll never see it coming.
The first ten amendments to our Constitution are entitled the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Whatever Freder Feels You Need.
As the school resources officer, Peterson likely had many opportunities to arrest Cruz for threats, or other offenses.
Why didn't he?
The Broward County Solution.
We're not compromising school safety. We're really saving the lives of kids," boasted Michaelle Valbrun-Pope, executive director of Student Support Initiatives for Broward County Public Schools, in August 2017.
Valbrun-Pope was referring to what an article by Jeffrey Benzing in Public Source calls the "Broward County Solution." As Benzing relates, Broward County used to lead the state of Florida in sending students to the state's juvenile justice system. County leaders responded with a perfectly progressive solution: "lower arrests by not making arrests."
Authorities agreed to treat twelve different misdemeanor offenses as school-related issues, not criminal ones. The results impressed the people who initiated the program. Arrests dropped from more than a thousand in 2011-2012 to less than four hundred just four years later.
One particular motivation behind programs like Broward County's was the pressure from multiple sources to reduce the statistical disparity between black and Hispanic student arrests on one hand and white and Asian student arrests on the other. Benzing writes, for instance, how a Denver organization called "Padres & Jóvenes Unidos" successfully advocated for a program like Broward's to help achieve "racial and education equity" in Denver schools.
That's why he was able to buy that gun.
Joyce Carol Oates tweets...
“how could a single school guard, armed with a conventional weapon, expect to confront & "kill" an individual w/ AK-15 who has methodically plotted an attack? isn't this demanding of the guard that he sacrifice his life? would NRA pay his widow a bonus?”
I responded
In a word? Training.
One thing for sure, I wouldn't be sending my kids to a public school in that shithole county. Just one more big advantage to a large minority population; a completely incompetent and emasculated law enforcement facade.
So, a trained officer with a gun chose not to engage, but arming teachers will stop shooters who appear suddenly with semi-automatic rifles?
Yes, and for precisely the reason given by langford peel at 10:19. No one really knows how he or she is going to react in a situation like that until it actually happens. Some people will act heroically, some will run away, some will freeze. You just don't know. Given that, it's foolish to put all your eggs in the basket of a single armed officer. It's much better to have multiple armed teachers and staff around. Even if some of them freeze, like the deputy did, there are others who won't.
A courageous coach died shielding several students with his body. Don't you wish that man had been armed? A armed man with that kind of courage might well have stopped the killer in his tracks. Suppose a dozen adults working at the school had been armed. Doesn't it seem likely that at least one of them would have stopped Cruz?
Well, I lived nearby, in North Lauderdale,, until just a couple of years ago. To be fair, the Superintendent of schools isn't from Broward.
He's an import from Chicago.
Countless people - people in positions of authority, people in positions take action to prevent and/or stop the shooting - failed to do their jobs.
Failed. In every way.
And now you leftist assholes run out a bunch of kids, coach them, train them and use them in attempt to take away MY rights?
Fuck. You.
Before the US figured out how to use cult-like psychological brainwashing indoctrination techniques in basic training, a very low percentage of front-line troops would actually fire at the enemy in battle. You can get the book through Ann's porthole
On Killing
Therefore, for the armed guard/armed teacher solution to work, they should be Army or Marine Corpse veterans only.
Althouse wrote: I want to know how much you think school security guards are going to help. Is Peterson the outlier, or should we expect all the guards we hire to turn out to be a Scot Peterson when the crisis hits?
First you need an armed shooter incident. And those are incredibly rare. From an actuarial stance the difference between security guard and no security guard is effectively the difference between not smoking cigarettes and not smoking a pipe.
A school resource officer should be trained to handle an active shooting incident (as should teachers), but most school resource officers will never encounter one. So they should be good at other things too, like dispute resolution and civics.
Btw. There is a possible explanation as to what may have contributed to the deputy’s decision not to go in.
Please read this Twitter thread...
https://twitter.com/thelastrefuge2/status/966854970594287616
Freder Frederson said...
"And the U.S. was the only country in during World War II whose standard issue infantry rifle was a semi-automatic. There would be plenty of long guns capable of killing plenty of people (just not as rapidly) if semi automatics were banned. Heck, the proficiency standard for the British Army in World War I with a Lee Enfield was 20 to 30 aimed shots a minute."
Shhh. Hush. What the 2nd amend means is that the militia-ie; every armed citizen would be at least as well armed as regular infantryman.
Armchair heroes.
The Journal and local TV stations have had articles and clips about the APS "resource officers." There are layers of regulations and strict official warnings against getting any ideas of acting on their own like Dirty Harry or Arnold.
Freder wrote: Well this kid wasn't a criminal (or at least had not committed any crimes that would have prohibited from owning a gun) until he started killing people.
If any one person who witnessed his previous violent behavior had filed a restraining order, he would have been prohibited from owning a gun.
Someone please explain the Article 1 Section 8 power in the Constitution to issue letters of Marque and Reprisal if you believe that private citizens are not allowed to own modern military weapons.
"One thing for sure, I wouldn't be sending my kids to a public school in that shithole county. Just one more big advantage to a large minority population; a completely incompetent and emasculated law enforcement facade."
You must be from Jupiter because you make no sense here on Earth. It sounds like you are blaming minorities for society's ills.
"There are layers of regulations and strict official warnings against getting any ideas of acting on their own like Dirty Harry or Arnold."
Sounds official! What does the law say, if anything at all?
This thread shows why libs don’t think guns are the answer. None of them believe the police should rush into an attack let alone themselves.
Scott Peterson was not a security guard, he was a deputy sheriff, part of the sheriff's department, assigned as the school resource officer. Aaron Feis was a coach, but security guard during the school day. Unarmed- because he was prohibited from being armed. He confronted the shooter. And was one of the casualties.
17 people died because of the run and hide philosophy. The proper thing to teach is charge and attack. Too close to charge? THROW THINGS! Books, backpacks, milk containers, whatever. Distract the shooter, throw off the shooter's aim to give those charging a better chance. Will someone or some people die then? Yes, but fewer. It took 9/11 before the powers that be decided that you know, maybe doing everything the hijackers tell you is bad policy. It was bad policy all along. Run and hide so the shooter can seek out and shoot at leisure is bad policy. Confront and attack. Also- no criminal penalties ever to be applied if the shooter somehow dies before being safely taken into custody by the proper authorities. Even if it's by a quick hanging from the flagpole out front.
"Someone please explain the Article 1 Section 8 power in the Constitution to issue letters of Marque and Reprisal if you believe that private citizens are not allowed to own modern military weapons."
Big Nurse Ratched needs to up your anti-psychotic medication.
Albuquerque is a university town, and City ordinances and APD and APS rules are the law as far as any APD officers are concerned.
and said ordinances and rules are aimed more at protecting the APS pupils from the police than at enabling the police to protect the pupils from each other or outside intruders.
The local media has a general attitude of immediately wanting to "investigate" the police for misbehavior whenever there is an "officer involved" incident of any kind anywhere in New Mexico.
"This thread shows why libs don’t think guns are the answer. None of them believe the police should rush into an attack let alone themselves."
You hate "libs." I got that from your comment. Thank you for your deplorable comment.
http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-nigeria-girls-20180223-story.html
But all of you saying "arming" teachers: if what you mean is Yet Another Government Program, then not just no be Hell No! Just remove the stupid counterproductive gun-free zones, add if necessary state laws stating that any employer who restricts any employee's ability to engage in self-defense must assume complete liability for that person's safety... and then just let teachers fend for themselves as far as on-the-job safety, exactly as all the rest of us do.
Hagar, don't be proposterous--such a just is fine at ordinary times, mabye--inside a school building there are no, NO, ZERO 100-yard distances. GMAFB.
And DKWalser, depending on how confined a space the confrontation occurs in, someone with a handgun might actually have an advantage over the rifle-wielding person. And
no No NO NO NOOOOO! A bazillion time No! It's not "obvious" that a teacher needs to receive "special training" before being allowed to carry. Just let the normal laws that apply everywhere else in the state apply to schools and classrooms too! It's singling out schools as "special" that has painted a target on them. Just stop, Stop, STOP with the overlapping government interventions already.
Boxty,
"Isn't it standard police procedure to establish a perimeter and call for backup? "
No! Ever since Columbine, the standard protocol has been (in a gratuitious paraphrase of the old taunt against Chicago), "Intervene early, intervene often."
Trumpet: Take your tone fallacy and shove it.
Does anyone doubt that if the football coach had a gun he wouldn't have been hiding outside? Multiple armed personnel would be the best defense.
At the Arapahoe shooting a few years back the shooter did kill one girl, but was shot by the security guard. That story, of course was not publicized. If the story on the news was "Hero Teacher Stops Mentally-Ill Cruz" there is little for other copy-cats to emulate. They want to go out in a blaze of glory, not get a cap in the skull before doing harm.
Ever since Columbine, the standard protocol has been...
This is BS. Very few of the gadzillion jurisdictions across the US have made any changes whatever since any of these "incidents."
The basic instinct of any bureaucracy is: "This is our world. We don't have to pay attention to anyone or anything outside it!"
So, to summarize the lefties position: armed and trained police personnel are correct to not move in to engage shooters who are killing children and therefore you must surrender your constitutional rights and be even more dependent on armed and trained police personnel who will not move in to engage.....
You see where this is going....
Btw, who could have guessed that LLR Chuck approved "professional" "journalist" hack John Harwood would be fully engaged in pushing the lefty fake memes.
Just like LLR Chuck.
Feel free to draw obvious conclusions.
Therefore, for the armed guard/armed teacher solution to work, they should be Army or Marine Corpse veterans only.
And then from special forces/rangers only or someone. Give me a break, a logistician or mechanic, especially if they have no combat experience, is not going to be significantly more adept than most of the population. Your average infantryman, once he gets out of his APV, is trained to work in fire teams, not individually.
You do realize that only about 20% of the Army and Marine Corps are in combat arms, and the number of trigger pullers is even less than that since your field level maintenance and support personnel are still counted in that 20% (and only one guy in the four man crew of an M1 actually gets to fire the gun)?
No Drago, cops are right-wing cucks who rather shoot the unarmed rather than confront dangerous criminals
Freder: Tell that to the NVA during Tet. They thought they could brush aside the REMF's, but were slaughtered by cooks and clerks.
"The proper thing to teach is charge and attack. Too close to charge? THROW THINGS! Books, backpacks, milk containers, whatever. Distract the shooter, throw off the shooter's aim to give those charging a better chance"
No doubt correct, but it ignores the "surprise factor".
We don't expect to be go to class or a country music concert and be shot at. It takes most peeps a while to process the fact that "SOMEONE IS SHOOTING AT THEM" - when one second before everything was normal.
Then mother nature kicks in, and the first impulse is run and hide. I'm sure that's particularly true of Women.
Its only when Peeps have time to think about it, when they see the shooter finding people who've tried to hide and picking them off that they might think "Hey, we should all just rush 'em - otherwise we're dead".
You can get the book through Ann's porthole
On Killing
I read Grossman's book years ago and he makes some good points. Especially as target shooting gave way to pop up targets shaped like men.
The present day marksmanship training is nothing like what I did long ago but it does resemble video games today.
His book is quite controversial among combat vets, as is SLA Marshall's study on combat experience.
We've been discussing it at Chicago boys.
when they see the shooter finding people who've tried to hide and picking them off that they might think "Hey, we should all just rush 'em - otherwise we're dead".
One old rule is you charge a gun but run from a knife. A knife has no reach while a gun does and guns jam just like the one on the Paris train.
Arming teachers and coaches who WANT to be armed is the best way to go.
The other problem that I see no solution for is the size of high schools. They have open campuses and 3000 students.
Lots of opportunity for crazies.
Tiger Woods lives in Jupiter. It is actually pretty nice.
Howard: "Freder: Tell that to the NVA during Tet. They thought they could brush aside the REMF's, but were slaughtered by cooks and clerks."
Thank you.
A marine cook could take Field Marshall Freder down with a potato peeler...while working out...and eating a snack.
I straight out stole this from Ace O Spades.
"By the way, the guy with the pistol had an immense advantage over the shooter: He knew about the shooter, and he knew about where the shooter was (from the sounds of gunfire), but the shooter didn't know about him or where he was.
Now, it seems he was out taking a well-deserved smoke break, but had he been doing his job, he would have cautiously approached the shooter from a behind sort of angle and taken the not-so-difficult trick shot of shooing someone unaware right in his fucking back."
I thought the Navy provided cooks for the Marines.
I commanded a headquarters company. My support platoon, including the cooks, had the majority of my heavy weapons (Mk 19s and .50 cals). Many of them were former infantry or armor and transferred into the mess section because of injury, or because a promotion slot came available and they were willing to go to the MOSQ school.
Also, I was a tank platoon leader and company XO, too. Everyone had to qualify on his assigned personal weapon (rifle or pistol) as well as the .50 cal. And everybody got to shoot. Even my loaders.
Further, when a lot of tank units deployed to Iraq/Afghanistan, they got pulled from their tanks, issued M-4s and fought in Humvees or as infantry. They did fine.
Freder, as usual, is talking out of his ass.
Marines have their own food service specialists. MOS 3381.
I doubt people only act when they have time to think. Many bold acts, foolish, evil, or heroic, happen because peeps don't have time, or give themselves time, to decide not to act.
Here is link to shooting at Bay County school board meeting from a few years ago. One member attacks shooter with her purse. With a gun she could have ended it right there. Fortunately, shooter was unskilled himself and had zero hits in fourteen shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu71IZiDwdU
Find those who can stay calm in crisis situations, and if they don't have experience with guns, train them.
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