School resource officer Scot Peterson never went in, despite taking a position on the west side of Building 12, where most of the carnage happened, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said Thursday.Did he train his whole life for this situation, to go in single-handedly and stop an active shooter, somewhere in a building amid many other people? Or are we really just thinking, how could he not go in and die trying rather than to stay alive only to be mired in hopeless shame?
"I think he remained outside for upwards of four minutes," Israel said Thursday in a news conference. The shooting, he said, lasted six minutes....
President Donald Trump made his first remarks about Peterson while departing the White House on Friday, saying the deputy "certainly did a poor job."
"He trained his whole life," Trump said. "But when it came time to get in there and do something, he didn't have the courage or something happened. But he certainly did a poor job, there's no question about that."
Moving away from the pitiful figure of Scot Peterson, I want to know how much you think school security guards are going to help. Is Peterson the outlier, or should we expect all the guards we hire to turn out to be a Scot Peterson when the crisis hits?
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 271 of 271Find those who can stay calm in crisis situations, and if they don't have experience with guns, train them.
If you haven't read The Conservative Treehouse report on this, you really should.
This wasn't mistakes; this was policy.
@Jason
I was in the Army, but was stationed in Okinawa. I saw how seriously the Marines took marksmanship training. As a support guy I was pulled from my job for one day to qualify. An hour or two training in the morning then to the range. If you didn't qualify they kept sending you until you did. The marines were pulled off their jobs for two weeks of marksmanship training before going to the range to qualify. So yeah, Freder is pulling his usual.
He should have went in, addressed the killer, killed the killer,” his ex-boss, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel, said after reports emerged Thursday of Peterson’s inaction, prompting widespread outrage.
I doubt people only act when they have time to think. Many bold acts, foolish, evil, or heroic, happen because peeps don't have time, or give themselves time, to decide not to act.
This has been true on at least one occasion for me....I nearly lost my life saving some kids at the beach. What scared me the most after it was all over was the fact that I reacted without thinking about it first.
The best way to prevent school shootings is to lay a heavy guilt trip on the news media for using them as excuses to wallow in disaster porn.
Their "15 minutes of fame" is the major motivation for the shooters.
Freder, as usual, is talking out of his ass.
Oh give me a break. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. I was merely pointing out that even combat arms training doesn't necessarily translate into being able to tackle policing (which is what this situation was). And yes I know almost everyone (I don't know whether chaplains and maybe a few other categories are exempt, but I don't want to get in some gotcha where you claim, "you don't know shit about the military, chaplains aren't required to qualify on the range") in the military has to qualify with firearms annually.
And how on earth would experience with .50 cal machine guns and grenade launchers be helpful in taking down a shooter in a high school.
In recognition of following procedure literally but not seriously, Officer Peterson is awarded a (Non)participation trophy. Congratulations.
Everybody's required and trained to defend their own position and perimeter, dummy.
You fecking libtards are "what-if"ing your idiot selves to death, harping on more and more stupid points based on dumbass assumptions and your own ignorance, and getting more and more obtuse with every passing day.
Stop projecting your own incompetence and uselessness onto your betters.
And stop taking counsel of your fears.
Jesus. Thank God shits like Freder weren't in charge at Chosin or the Battle of the Bulge or Tet. They would have shit themselves.
Libtards would have projected their own uselessness on everyone around them and gotten everybody overrun and lost entire campaigns.
Everybody's required and trained to defend their own position and perimeter, dummy.
And this contradicts my point how?
Trumpit: Big Nurse Ratched needs to up your anti-psychotic medication.
That's a very odd allusion. Nurse Ratched was a vicious and cruel bully who was dedicated to doing things in a regimented specific way regardless if that helped or hurt her patients. Her efforts drove one patient to suicide, another to attempt to kill her (which the movie indicates that she very much deserved) resulting in his lobotomy, and another to break out and flee. She was the villain. The movie makes it very clear that, on the whole, the mental patients are better and most likely saner people that Ratched. Ratched giving anyone medication is not a good thing.
Seriously, the number of ways that this insult backfires is incredible.
Israel should explain why the first department on scene wasnt his.
They would have shit themselves.
Really?! American soldiers (except for liberal pansies like me) are never scared in combat?
Straw man much?
No, forget it. The intellectual dishonesty of libtards knows no bounds.
The reality is that cops generally don't go in and intervene. This is more pattern and practice than anything else. In a small town/country/sheriff setting, yes, but in the cities - we're all just "they". Never "we". If he had gone in and shot the kid, he might have been blamed. And if he made a mistake and in firing he hit someone who was running from the shooting, there'd be a heck of a lawsuit. The rules they follow are the ones that basically work the best for keeping the cops out of trouble. That's just the way it works.
Leaving the school just puts the icing on the cake, but --- they generally don't go in while the shots are being fired unless/until they have overwhelming presence. They probably are trained that way.
I think teachers who would be willing to train/carry might be much more likely to actually intervene earlier, because they have a different emotional relationship to their students, because they also are targets, and because they will be there.
If the function of an armed security guard or police officer isn't to intervene in a situation like this, what the hell is it?
If they are expected to behave like this officer, they will not deter.
If they are expected to behave in accordance with what they are hired to do, they will be a deterrent.
Rocket science.
"The other problem that I see no solution for is the size of high schools. They have open campuses and 3000 students."
Agree and would add that with that amount of people it is far easier to get on campus, get into a building, without being noticed.
-sw
If we are going to have these huge national discussions about how we are going to stop this, we have to talk about what happened. There was failure of the state institutions at every level. I'm sure none of the people who failed wanted this shooting, and I'm certain they are all completely devastated. But let's do a deep dive into how well our institutions are performing the tasks they already have, before we give them more.
Field Marshall Freder: " I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings."
LOL
You couldnt if you tried.
It is simply abundantly obvious you enjoy making a fool of yourself.
The best times are when you are exposed but then double down on stupid. Its great fun.
Apparently there were three additional sheriff's deputies outside the school during the shooting.
@Freder, everyone is frightened in combat. That is where training comes in. If Scot Peterson was poorly trained, that’s on Sheriff Israel.
"No, forget it. The intellectual dishonesty of libtards knows no bounds."
Your Lie Detector Machine is broken, parts are NOT available.
It is simply abundantly obvious you enjoy making a fool of yourself.
Sheesh, all this started when I responded to a post about how "[t]herefore, for the armed guard/armed teacher solution to work, they should be Army or Marine Corpse veterans only." Then everyone jumped on me because I pointed out, accurately, that only about 20% of Army and Marine personnel are in combat arms.
How come no one jumped all over the original commentor for excluding Navy and Air Force veterans from the solution? And how about that spelling of "Corps"? I just noticed that. You wouldn't let that go when Obama made that mistake.
Freder, everyone is frightened in combat. That is where training comes in.
Don't direct this at me. Tell Jason.
Freder: You tripped up when you said I was merely pointing out that even combat arms training doesn't necessarily translate into being able to tackle policing (which is what this situation was).
Immediate aggressive interdiction of an active shooter is not policing. This is the exact situation where policing and police training fail.
Frankly, armed firefighters would be better than cops because they are trained to run into danger to rescue people.
Freder: Everyone who is familiar with my trolling style knows I purposefully spelled Corps like Corpse as a juicy chunk of bait for a fool to chomp on, thanks. By leaving out the AF and Navy, I was hoping to catch a couple others in a defensive reaction. Unfortunately, you were the only fool to bite and there isn't much meat on the fillets, so it doesn't count as a real scalp.
rcocean said...
"The proper thing to teach is charge and attack. Too close to charge? THROW THINGS!.....
No doubt correct, but it ignores the "surprise factor".
We don't expect to be go to class or a country music concert and be shot at. It takes most peeps a while to process the fact that "SOMEONE IS SHOOTING AT THEM" - when one second before everything was normal.
Training and indoctrination. Should start early in life. One of my sons was in a school bus accident. The first person to dial 911 was a Scout. My son and all the other Scouts on the bus, with another few boys opened the back emergency door and aided/directed everyone out. None had ever actually practiced an emergency evacuation, but they had all been taught that if an emergency happened- Be Prepared. And they were.
Teach people to run and hide and they'll act like cowards in training. Teach them to take action to protect themselves AND others and to take responsibility, they will. People rise to expectations. Or lower. Expectations should be set high.
Oh, BTW, Navy supplies corpsmen, transport, naval gunfire support and close air support to Marines. Not cooks. It's the Navy/Marine Corps team when the SHTF.
And how on earth would experience with .50 cal machine guns and grenade launchers be helpful in taking down a shooter in a high school. - Freder the Totalitarian
Here's what people like you don't get. You refuse to get it. You never will get it. Because you don't WANT to get it.
The mere fact there ARE (unknown number of) people carrying on school grounds will deter most - if not all - mass shooters.
That's why we never, ever see mass shootings at gun shows. There would be no need to 'take down' a shooter. Because that shooter never shows up.
Freder: "How come no one jumped all over the original commentor for excluding Navy and Air Force veterans from the solution?"
Give it just a teensy weensy more thought and see what you come up with...
Heres a hint: all grunt ground pounders are trained as infantry first.
You dont join the Green Team and go right to "Cookin' Skool"
It's not what libtards don't know that's the problem.
It's what they DO know that just isn't so.
Maybee wrote: f we are going to have these huge national discussions about how we are going to stop this, we have to talk about what happened.
Exactly. We need to talk about how cops were called on this kid tens of times, and nothing was done. We need to talk about why he was even in that school. We need to talk about whether cops being in schools adds security against these events. My guess is that it really doesn't in more urbanized settings.
We need to talk about how this kid got through all those police calls without official action - this is someone to whom the system is supposed to deny a weapon.
But of course, not being able to buy it legally might not have changed anything. He had a job and he had money - I'm sure he could have gotten an illegal weapon.
We need to talk about the FBI drop. That too is a pattern.
This is a systemic failure that spans the school admin (which had apparently warned about letting this kid on campus with a backpack - that's how much they knew about his potential for danger) to the FBI. That happens and they don't go for a restraining order, which would have lifted his gun? This is effed up to the point of insanity.
The delinquent deputy is the last failure in a line of failures. But we need to discuss that too.
What's already known makes a mockery of our current laws:
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201684874.html
Because we don't take them seriously and we don't enforce them. This is as bad as the Airforce not filing the report on that church shooter.
Maybe the lesson of this incident, and Boston Bombers, and the Pulse shooting, and the guy who went in and reported himself to the FBI in Alaska and then wound up shooting the people at the American Airlines baggage carousel is that we should take these things seriously? And I still would like to know how it happens that Santiago got his weapon back after being released from the mental health facility. We hear nothing about that case, do we?
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/01/07/508697034/what-we-know-about-the-fort-lauderdale-shooting-suspect
All this stuff is not going to be wished away.
Oh geez. Reports now that 4 Broward County Sheriffs Deputies showed up but didn't go in.
Would have been cool for CNN to have these facts before they did their town hall.
Jason: "It's what they DO know that just isn't so."
Nice Reagan paraphrase.
Israel should explain why the first department on scene wasnt his.
But they were...they just decided to wait outside with their guns drawn like their other buddy.
Uh, oh. Looks like three other Broward County deputies were on the scene fairly quickly, if not immediately, and hung around outside, like Scot Peterson did. It looks like it was city cops who arrived later, but entered first. One might be mere chance. Four deputies hanging around outside while the killer is rampaging inside looks more like department policy or standard practice.
And now the latest from Parkland is that Scot Peterson was not alone: when Coral Gables police arrived there were three other police standing around outside the school while the shooting was going on.
They can’t all have been cowards. Seems like a massive failure of training or process or both. Need more information, of course.
Meanwhile, the question needs to be asked: if the goal of the FBI and the Broward County Sheriff’s Office was a massacre of helpless students, what would they have done differently?
The reporting party from the school should have told the Sheriff that they were being terrorized by an unarmed black child and they would have gunned him down in no time.
Big Mike said...
And now the latest from Parkland is that Scot Peterson was not alone: when Coral Gables police arrived there were three other police standing around outside the school while the shooting was going on.
And the sherrif went to CNN's town hall and blamed the NRA for the deaths.
should we expect all the guards we hire to turn out to be a Scot Peterson when the crisis hits?
We should expect all the guards we hire to do the job they were hired for. And that means running toward the sound of gunfire if need be to save people's lives, and not running away and cowering to save their own sorry butts. If they don't want to do that -- and they are perfectly free not to -- then don't take the job.
Likewise -- if you ask to be a firefighter, then you are going to have to go into that burning building, not stand outside and watch it burn.
Scot Peterson was apparently approaching retirement and I will bet that he was given the school assignment as a way of coasting to the finish line. Not exactly the guy you should be counting on to stop a school shooting. He also apparently was armed with a pistol and the shooter was armed with a rifle. Very few people, except the very foolish , would want to be in the position of trying to out-duel a rifle with a pistol. With what I know (little) i don't think it is fair to blame Peterson personally. To make an example of him as being the wrong guy at the wrong time is , I think, fair. As so many say when you need them right now the police are only minutes away.
Given Sheriff Israel's subsequent video appearances, I would also expect Deputy Peterson to be disposed to be cautious about expecting any support from his department if anything should go wrong.
Which it then did. Bigtime, and his caution proved valid.
4 armed sherrif deputies waited outside, not just one.
I have no idea what I would do if a person was in a school killing kids but I’d hope I’d do everything possible to stop it, arms or unarmed.
I don't know what I would do, either, but that's one huge reason I'm not a cop.
"80% of success is just showing up"~Woody Allen Who knows if that guard could have made a difference but we know there is a 100% failure from not even trying.
Combat vets returned from the middle east have extensive training and experience in shoot/don't shoot scenarios. They know how to engage targets. They may even not be distracted by gunfire in doing so. They know the sounds of AK and M4 rifles. Cruz didn't fire that long, was taken alive. A few timely incoming rounds may very well have convinced him to give it up. Certainly, his targeting could be disrupted as his fantasy world dissolved under the incoming fire, maybe buy some precious time. As was noted above, brave adults gave their lives in defense of the children. Arm those kinds of folks. Gun free zones? Fish in a barrel.
As usual Israel understands this stuff. Like with the wall... follow the leaders.
@MayBee, I already know what I would do because I have been in a similar position (but no guns involved) and I am convinced that teleportation must be possible because I have no recollection of how I got from behind the women to between them and the person threatening them. I don’t know why, but guns don’t particularly frighten me. Perhaps because as a competitive shooter I know how damned hard it is to hit a target when you’re under time pressure. And a person shooting back is going to put you under pressure, no question.
Chainsaws, now they scare crap out of me.
Israel should explain why the first department on scene wasnt his.
From minute one Israel been covering his own ass.
* * *
For that hole he's digging for himself, Freder needs a bigger shovel.
Very few people, except the very foolish , would want to be in the position of trying to out-duel a rifle with a pistol.
In close quarters ? I don't see that at all. The AR 15 is a .22 and a 9mm pistol should win that. We are talking a range of 10 feet.
Even I can hit the O ring at 10 feet.
This police officer was trained to run into the building if there was school shooter. That was Broward County policy and training. And he didn't. I feel sorry for him - children died because he didn't do what he should have done and he must know it.
And this shooting is also an example of the way in which non-enforcement of the laws for racial reasons comes around to hurt the very people it is supposed to help. The laws weren't enforced in the Broward County schools and in the end 17 children of all races died while Broward County police stood about still not enforcing the law. The same is happening in Chicago. Kids are gunning each other down and the police are standing around not enforcing the law. The same in Baltimore, etc. And still the lefties won't change their policies, rethink the approach. Because, you see, the arrest record in Broward County still looks good in terms of racial balance since the incident has only resulted in the arrest of one Hispanic. And the goal is a proportional balance in arrests; it isn't public safety. The same is true in Chicago and Baltimore. And it will never change until minorities wish for a change. They elect these politicians with these policies; it's on them.
If Cruz had been reported for assault, elder abuse, threats to murder, animal abuse or any number of things we know he did, could he have legally gotten his weapons?
He was a coward! what kind of man allows kids to be shot while he freezed up outside? A coward does. School guards can absolutely stop killers. You can see on youtube numerous shoot outs where guards fight it out with robbers. They usally win. Not always. School buildings must be secure buildings. Corporate buildings usually are We can afford it.
Even I can hit the O ring at 10 feet.
It’s an ‘X,’ not an O. And you have to do it while someone is shooting at you. Takes time at a range with an instructor to learn to shut that out and focus on your sight picture.
Jason,
That friend's attempt to defend Peterson is a twisted mess of illogic.
If that's an (additional) indicator of the brain trust operating there...
It was mentioned he has kids.
Would he have sat it out if his were in there?
So..after failing big league, off to a pension.
Perfect.
It’s an ‘X,’ not an O. And you have to do it while someone is shooting at you. Takes time at a range with an instructor to learn to shut that out and focus on your sight picture.
My targets have Os but whatever. Does that make you feel better ?
I last read that four armed officers were taking cover outside the school while the shooting was going on.
Dr. K, no. I’m not familiar with targets like that. Mine are either silhouettes or rings where the center is marked with an X.
The three other sheriff's deputies present seem to be firm now. That makes it even more likely that Peterson was either following established policy or the morale and faith in their superior officer is abysmal, to put it mildly, in the entire Sheriff's Dept.
Furthermore, on general failures: Apparently Cruz' foster mother(?) told some police authority that he had held a gun to the heads of several other kids. That is a serious charge that should have been followed up, but was not. If found to be true, that would have constituted serious felonies, and Cruz should have been prosecuted and locked up, and at the very least been put on the federal list of persons not allowed to possess firearms.
"In close quarters ? I don't see that at all. The AR 15 is a .22 and a 9mm pistol should win that. We are talking a range of 10 feet."
You have no way of knowing what the range would have been. In a classroom, it could be CQC range -- advantage pistol. In a gym or cafeteria, or down a long hallway, that's not so easy with a handgun. Other locations in the school, other vantages, who knows?
mockturtle said...
"I last read that four armed officers were taking cover outside the school while the shooting was going on."
That's a lot of cover. I feel safer already.
Somewhat unique here is the intent to dissolve into the studentry and escape.
That..plus some bizarre 20 minute delay on the CCTV feed.
Give every teacher and every student in good standing a taser, to carry at school only. Any gunman would have 20 armed people in the room with him, three or four of them within a yard. Surely someone would score before he did much damage.
Doc Mike, the muzzle energy of a 22LR round goes up to maybe 340 ft-lbs max and most are less than 150 ft-lbs. The ME of the NATO round is 1,300 ft-lbs. The energy increases with the square of the velocity... that librul non-linear thinking is a bitch.
It might kick like a 22, but that's due to the recoil spring.
Dr. K, caliber as mere bore size is not relevant in these terms.
Both weapons have ample adequate ballistics at Zimmerpatrone ranges, the 5.56 in some views too much - in kinetic energy terms, even the old 55-grain pill of the Vietnam era M-16 has more foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle than the hottest .44 magnum load.
The point is that the M16 weighs 7 or 8 lb or more with all the modern electronic gadgets, and your .45 weighs perhaps 3 lb loaded, or your. 38 snubby half that. 3 feet long, half a foot long. Difference between wielding a toothbrush and pointing a broom. Difference between banging into things with it.
Long story short, the pistol shooter will have very good odds of getting the first shot and with luck the first shot may be the last.
Yes one gun shot could have ended this. Cruz, once the police took real action, dumped his gun and escaped by blending in with the other students.
And "What kind of a 'tard doesn't think that's a big advantage over a cop with MAYBE a ten-capacity mag and two or three more on his belt? "
What kind of 'tard thinks 30 rounds isn't enough to make a difference in a gun fight?
But it is good to know that an AR-15 would be a great defensive gun in your opinion. Obviously they should remain legal to keep us absolutely, guaranteed safe from a bad guy with a hand gun. After all if we have a rifle and many mags, there is nothing a guy with a hand gun can do to us.
(Hey, anyone remember when it was the Saturday Night Special that was the big concern? Small, cheap handguns... yep, lets get rid of them.... too.)
I think there are very few who would ban semi automatic handguns
You think wrong. Handguns are effectively banned in the U.K.; why would I realistically expect other gun control advocates not to want to do the same?
My previous post stated "Israel understands this". I had forgotten that BSO's boss is named Israel. My bad. I intended to point out that ISRAELIS have armed, trained dedicated people in every school. Word has gotten around after killing a few attackers. That is all that is needed here, What you saw in Parkland cowardice plain and simple. Fallujah, on the other hand, pure American Heroism.
Broward Cowards.
You think wrong. Handguns are effectively banned in the U.K.; why would I realistically expect other gun control advocates not to want to do the same?
Because this is America, not the UK. We fought a war of independence in 1775-1781, 'member?
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