Thank you, Lindsey.... you know, when you talk about comprehensive immigration reform, which is where I would like to get to eventually — if we do the right bill here, we are not very far way. You know, we’ve done most of it. You want to know the truth, Dick? If we do this properly, DACA, you’re not so far away from comprehensive immigration reform. And if you want to take it that further step, I’ll take the heat, I don’t care. I don’t care — I’ll take all the heat you want to give me, and I’ll take the heat off both the Democrats and the Republicans. My whole life has been heat. (Laughter.) I like heat, in a certain way. But I will. I mean, you are somewhat more traditional politicians. Two and a half years ago, I was never thinking in terms of politics. Now I’m a politician. You people have been doing it, many of you, all your lives. I’ll take all the heat you want. But you are not that far away from comprehensive immigration reform....January 11: The 2 Senators he named in his I'll-take-the-heat remark, Lindsey Graham and Dick Durbin, came to meet with Trump in private, and immediately afterwards there was a report from an unnamed source claiming that Trump had said "Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?" Whoever chose to drop this bomb — Durbin? Graham? — delivered the heat. It wasn't quite the heat Trump had asked for. He'd offered to take the heat on the way to bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform, but it seemed that Trump had resisted the Graham-Durbin proposal, which would have given special priority to Haitians. We don't know for sure exactly how Trump expressed what seems to be his preference for a "merit" system, but the quote was very exciting and, the frenzy of "Fire and Fury having died out, the media jumped at what they needed to fan anti-Trump fires once again. Trump is a racist was at least as hot as the previous week's Trump is crazy. Trump got the heat. And he likes heat, in a certain way. Does he like it that way? Who knows? Saying "shithole" over and over while deploring the man who said it had far more energy than the underlying policy question, but maybe on some level we were forming opinions about whether we prefer immigrants based on "merit" or from the places people have the most reason to want to leave.
January 14: Various persons from the January 11th meeting say different things about what Trump really said and whether they could "recollect" anything specific, and then Trump himself spoke up. NYT:
After three days of denunciations from around the world, President Trump declared that he is “not a racist”.... Mr. Trump also insisted that he had not made the inflammatory comments in a White House meeting on Thursday.... “I’m not a racist,” Mr. Trump said... “I am the least racist person you have ever interviewed, that I can tell you.”...Trump was backed up by 2 other Senators who'd been in the room:
“I didn’t hear that word either,” [Tom] Cotton said on CBS’s “Face the Nation.” “And I was sitting no further away from Donald Trump than Dick Durbin was.” Mr. Cotton said Mr. Durbin “has a history of misrepresenting what happens in White House meetings,” an assertion that [David] Perdue made in his own interview Sunday morning on ABC’s “This Week.”January 15: It's Martin Luther King Day. Where do we want to go with this? Fan the flames again? Do we want to believe we have a crazy or racist President or a crazy and racist President? Or does it seem that Trump has taken the heat, taken all the heat they wanted to give him. His whole life has been heat. He likes heat, in a certain way. That doesn't mean we all like heat. Some of us would like to get to normal, including normalizing immigration policy, with real legislation that we actually believe is the right solution and that we want to see enforced.
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Right behind you I see the millions.
On you I see the glory.
From you I get opinions.
From you I get the story.
Listening to you I get the music.
Gazing at you I get the heat (heat).
Following you I climb the mountain.
I get excitement at your feet!
I think Pete Townsend was onto something there.
Sen. Durbin was caught lying about what he claimed House Speaker John Boehner said to President Obama in a White House meeting. (Both Obama's spokesman and Boehner's denied the comment was made.) Why should we believe Durbin is accurately reporting what was said at the meeting when the President has admitted to using harsh language, but has denied using the phrase Durbin claims was used, and others at the meeting also deny hearing Trump say what Durbin claims was said?
The Dems are on suicide missions now. That is all they have left. Trump has his middle class base, whites, Hispanics and blacks. Trump has the US Military. And Trump has honesty and class.
The Dems have no candidates, no honesty, no class and no more world Slush Funds left swindled from Americans using environmental hoax BS systems or taken in laundered bribery from the foreign Billiomaires.
All the left has left now is a cadre of False News outlets owned by the CIA. And that means the Wall Street Journal.
There have been several people who claim they did not hear him say that, but all that I have seen seem to be dodging around what he did say. He himself has said he used hard language. It seems odd that nobody is giving an alternate account.
That having been said, my experience is that the most capable, truly effective people tend to be foulmouthed SOBs, or in this age Bs. Not pleasant, but not important.
Althouse wrote, “Some of us would like to get to normal, including normalizing immigration policy, with real legislation that we actually believe is the right solution and that we want to see enforced.”
That will never happen as Trump wants a wall and Congress won’t fund it. The two items are tied together.
And isn’t all of this exhausting? The Dems and MSM have turned this incident up to 11 because they think it will mortally wound Trump and allows them to win the House. It is already “inevitable” that Pelosi is Speaker again.
E.g. CNN’s Poppy Harlow just now, “Isn’t it ironic that we are talking about whether Trump is a racist today?”
I forgot to add, in addition to Durbin's word for it, we also have Chuck's own assurance that Trump definitely said it. (As a LLR, Chuck has custody of Nixon's Oval Office taping equipment. The stuff must still work.)
If you had any doubt about whether the democrats wanted to help the dreamers or wanted a campaign issue, this episode answered your question. Whether or not Trump actually said shithole is irrelevant to this question. Even if he did say it, Durbin did not have to go running to the microphones. His doing so blew up the negogiations, which was his intent.
There are only ten fingers to burn. At some point Trump will get politically smarter, more controlled in his verbal offerings, and angrier. This year, I predict, if he isn’t taken down somehow. Then, beware of a ego scorned.
*an
I'm sort of curious to know what percentage of people who are offended by the shithole remark are also grateful that Amy's love has made Sheldon a nicer man.
"(Rand) Paul said on NBC’s “Meet The Press” Sunday that Trump donated money to a medical mission trip (to Haiti)Paul took before he was president. Paul did about 200 surgeries on Haitians that allowed them to see while he was on the trip ...."
I wonder what Senator Turbin has donated? Show us your tax return Dick!
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/rand-paul-trump-isnt-prejudiced-against-haiti-because-he-helped-fund-my-medical-mission-trip-there/article/2645894
"It's Martin Luther King Day. Where do we want to go with this?"
This Althouse quote can stand alone, outside of the context of Trump.
Since MLK's day, a common perception of racism -- government-enforced segregation, firehoses -- is gone.
Now people of good will can argue what racism even means in today's diverse society.
Except there seems to be very few people of good will among our elite.
The Common Ground has been scorched and salted. Heat? Mere conversation is radioactive.
"Where do we want to go with this?"
Where CAN we go with this?
- james james
I haven't listened to that song in years, Mike -- well done!
Trump doesn't take the heat. He wanders aimlessly, like a drunk on the streets of Dublin, from one position to another, creating chaos.
One of his ex-wives had this to say today:
'He has so many people telling him left and right what to say and what not to say and things like that, and sometimes maybe it can confuse him.'
Old, confused, ineffective, vacillating - not taking the heat.
That doesn't mean we all like heat. Some of us would like to get to normal, including normalizing immigration policy, with real legislation that we actually believe is the right solution and that we want to see enforced.
"We" is a rhetorical mistake. Even people who agree resent being assumed to agree.
I disagree about heat. I like the heat. Let the enemy MSM exhibit its stupidity.
Vs. some of us like the heat without a reason.
Pretty sure that all presidents have had many people telling him left and right what to say and what not to say and things like that, and sometimes maybe it can confuse him.
Has anyone brought up the Kinsley gaffe?
That it's a scandal in Washington when someone blurts out the truth. I'm referring to Trump, not Durbin.
Where do we want to go with this?
I know where I'd like to go with this.
I'm also pretty sure where we will actually go with this.
But at least it's a lovely hand-basket we're in.
"I'm sort of curious to know what percentage of people who are offended by the shithole remark are also grateful that Amy's love has made Sheldon a nicer man."
I'm not offended by it; but I only watch the show to look at Penny
CNN’s Poppy Harlow just now, “Isn’t it ironic that we are talking about whether Trump is a racist today?”
No we aren't. Lefties on TV and in academia might be discussing that. In the real world, the average American sees this as foolish hyperventilating. We know saying a place is a shithole is NOT the same as saying that a person is inferior by virtue of their skin color. This is dumbshit underwear gnome logic, and the public sees through it. Not to mention we've heard all the tales of LBJ swearing a blue streak, Nixon dropping F bombs and Hillary screeching obscenities at her SS team. So we are not falling for the "Well I never!" pearl-clutching press. It';s a phony act. This episode is so phony it almost looks like an excuse for CNN to shittify its language so the infants on set can say "Shit" about 200 times over the weekend.
And in real America people are getting up going to work (because most of us don't have MLK Day off) and discounting Big Media's influence a little more for their excessive obsession with Trump and their blithe violation of what's said behind closed doors. Here's a few clues for the clueless among us:
> If you hear "shithole" (or "shithouse") and immediately think "brown people" then you are the racist.
> If you think "certain people" just can't shake off the yoke of minority status to achieve anything without a government handout then you are the racist.
> If you ignore a man's history of opening up properties to Jews and African Americans and try to tar him as a White Supremacist then you are the idiot.
Neither confused nor ineffective. Just doesn't know or play the DC game.
Want an example of ineffective? That's Obama. Good at getting elected. Not much else.
The MLK speech goes mostly the opposite from today's woke enthusiasts.
And when this happens, and when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!
Why are white men, Jews and Gentiles free? They lost their racism.
That insight of his is from Tillich and Schelling.
Blacks today are not free exactly because they've traded their dignity for racism.
Anti-MLK.
To me, Trump came out of this looking better than Durbin. But that's just me.
Trump is trying to move things forward in DC. Obviously not everyone wants to do that. The more successful Trump is on basic policy, the more heat and frivolous accusations I expect.
I'm not trying to hold Trump up as some sort of light to humanity, but many of his critics are people I would not want to sit next to on a bus, and people who should never be allowed to drive a bus due to their total and habitual irresponsibility.
It is a sad commentary on our political class.
He's taking the heat, getting the job done and he isn't even warmed up yet. I'm still not tired of all the winning.
I would believe Senators Cotton and Perdue before I would believe anything from Senator Durbin since he already has a proven record as a liar about meetings with the President.
I'm not trying to hold Trump up as some sort of light to humanity, but many of his critics are people I would not want to sit next to on a bus, and people who should never be allowed to drive a bus due to their total and habitual irresponsibility.
Exactly. Since June 2015 Trump has been exceedingly lucky, over and over, for having the people arrayed against him expose themselves, overplay their hands, and go down in flames. Sixteen solid Republicans? Done. The Most Inevitable Woman in the World? Done. And we are seeing it happen to Mueller and crew in real time, just as the midterms are sneaking up on the empty suits who wish to dethrone Trump.
And the media? They have demonstrated quite clearly that they cannot be trusted generally, and why they have a lower approval rating than the President. Every segment is on a rumor about Trump, a misstatement of what he said, or a shallow analysis of one of his Tweets. They don't even realize they are dancing to his tune, the little monkeys!
The entire political dynamic is based not on lobbys but soap opera women forming the only audience of MSM news.
Only stories they'll tune in for have legs, and there you are. Politicians have to feed them in order to get stories about themselves as heroes.
The obvious counter, right wing commentary, itself depends on disparaging that, so would die away as well if it were fixed.
Because real news isn't interesting to anybody. No clicks, no business model.
"Where do we want to go with this? Fan the flames again? Do we want to believe we have a crazy or racist President or a crazy and racist President?" We, we, we? There's no we. There's only Us and Them. Sorry. Them want to control and destroy Us, by any means necessary. The Durbin Special of smearing Trump with the shithole remark is just a minor maneuver in the larger battle.
"Some of us would like to get to normal, including normalizing immigration policy, with real legislation that we actually believe is the right solution and that we want to see enforced." A sweet sentiment among "some of us." Out in the real world, where progs fight for real, the point of the battle over immigration is to normalize the abnormal, the right solution is to transform America and lock in Dem power, and no Dem has any intention of enforcing anything. DACA was just another maneuver in the larger battle.
At least Trump, in his own unusual fashion, is fighting back a bit.
Scott Adams is pushing hard for Trump to "unplay" the race card. Which should be easy for him since it is really the class card he has been playing all along. You can't play both of these cards at the same time, as the Dems are discovering, and since the numbers inevitably favor the class card (99 to 1) that should be easy to do going into 2018, shouldn't it? Trump change, not chump change should play big among blacks given the latest unemployment numbers and wages beginning to inch up now that illegal immigration has been down for a while. I don't see why the Dems should be so confident going forward, but we'll see.
Trump has stated very clearly what his position on the "Dreamers" negotiation is. Graham and Durbin being stupid politicians came back to him with the same old plan and he basically told them to shove it up their ass. Their response is the old Washington trick of discrediting the opposition in hopes of getting their way. Wrong guy! He has told them what the basics of the deal are and they are too stupid to understand that Trump holds most, if not all, the cards.
Trump can very easily go on a campaign of explaining to the "dreamers" what the deal will be to make them safe and that he is ready to sign it, but the idiots in Congress won't send him a bill. Graham and Durbin can only speak to the other critters in DC.
This gets at what people generally miss about negotiations. In many cases, you can have the deal or you can have your dignity. If the other side is giving up something of value, they need something from you in exchange - either substantive, or a story they can tell to those they represent.
Washington has been full of people who preferred dignity over deals. And that is their choice to make. But when it becomes so prevalent over such a long period, people forget it's a choice. They start to believe every negotiation is about dignity itself.
When someone comes into town and wants to do deals, they are shocked to find out he's OK "taking the heat" and having people think less of him to get things done. They really can't understand that he can find certain aspects of people's perceptions of him unimportant, as they have carefully stage-managed people's perceptions all their lives.
The Dems have been playing a different game for so long, they think the only way to get a deal is to (a) devalue someone's dignity, such that (b) doing a deal is the only way to restore it. In the game of dignity, this is how deals get done.
So they try to "out" Trump as a racist, such that he'll have to do their deal to show he's not. And if he doesn't do their deal, it proves the racist meme so they can use it to throw him out of office.
That Trump stands there saying "not racist, just principled" with his hand still out to make a deal? No quoting and requoting what he said? No "I'm not a racist because I have many black and brown people working for me" world media tour?
It must be like an alien landing for our current crop of legislators. They really don't understand him at all.
BTW Ann, what you are seeing in DC and the "press" today is "normal". I have been reading Chernow's GRANT and the lying and prevarication by the political class today is not a bit different from the opposition (genuine racist Dems) during the Grant administration- and Grant was a "national hero". I became so upset by the parallels that I had to put the book down for a bit.
i wouldn't want to live in a country where whites are the minority. If they can dump on the President with such vehemence and vitriol for such remarks when he is the President and whites are the majority, imagine how they would treat you if whites were a minority and someone like Rep Sheila Jackson Lee were President and you expressed such thoughts..........Trump's remarks--if he actually made them--were objectionable and wrong, but I wouldn't classify them as hateful. The criticism of Trump for his remarks is far more hateful than the remarks themselves.
Anyone who says that some countries aren't shitholes are either liars or grievously underinformed.
Sally Struthers used to pummel us with showing us dozens of different shithole nations, pleading for us to feed these horrible poor people living in a shithole.
I don't care. Other Presidents have cursed just as directly. This pearl grasping outrage by Democrats (who save their potty mouths when describing Republicans) makes them seem like maiden aunts who are controlling bitches.
That is not a good look for the Dems, but alas it is probably an accurate look for them.
horriblY. Autocorrect sucks.
It isn't normal, the Dems and the Republicans used to work together to get things done, they did it when Reagan was president and Clinton too. The politics the last twenty years is way more extreme.
In his interview of Sen. Perdue on Sunday, all George Stephanopolous wanted to talk about was whether Trump said "shithole" (although George is too much the choir boy to use the actual word), whereas what Perdue wanted to talk about -- after repeatedly saying that Trump had NOT used that word -- was how there's an obvious "deal" to be made on immigration, which the Democrats aren't willing to work on. It was very clear who cares about substance and who is interested only in obstruction.
You guys have clearly missed today's talking points. See the next thread over. It's shithouse now, not shithole, but he did say it. You've got to keep up with the whirlwind that is reality in TRuMpWOrLd.
Am I the only one to wonder whether calling the president, Congressional leadership and half the country racist will result in normalizing racism? There seem to be more incidents on college campuses, but it's hard to determine how many are actual racist acts and how many were staged by the victims. It used to be racists mostly kept to themselves because they knew they were in the (generally despised) minority, but if they now perceive themselves to be in the majority, will their behavior change?
The whole country is getting a 'raise' February 1st. Withholding rates go down. I'm sure the MSM will ignore it, or spin it negatively. But the news may slip out.
Trumps statement translated for the slow of thinking or willfully blind Democrats:
Canada only admits useful, hardworking, untroublesome people. (Or filthy rich)
Why don't we do some more of that instead of begging for every welfare recipient on the planet to come here (otherwise known as the Democrat base)?
The Democrats and their media adjuncts will talk endlessly about the word because they have nothing else to say. Their policy goal is open borders but will never say that because they know there is little support for that position. This is consistent with their hysteria over tax reform -- they had nothing to say because they never saw a tax they did not support increasing. Not a popular position. As well, since the Democratic Party is built on identity politics, that means holding groups you do not support accountable for the problems of the groups you do support. If tax or immigration reform helps groups you support, it must be opposed.
It works sometimes. Harry Reid famously lied about Mitt Romney's tax returns. When confronted, Reid's response was revealing: "He lost, didn't he?" In the end, that is all they care about.
There is this strange brand of thinking be Democrats that Republicans are dumb enough to cave on immigration and commit electoral suicide. So they continue to demand the ridiculous.
In business the normally desired outcome of a negotiation is a "win-win" solution where all parties get something they want. The value of that "something" is greater than what the parties gave up to get it.
In the days of Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill the political world also sought win-win solutions.
It has been my observation that the political world has recently embraced "zero sum" negotiations, where one side wins and the other side loses. In particular, Barack Obama saw the world in zero sum terms. The Democrats want to win while inflicting a loss on Trump. Durbin saw he wasn't going to get what he wanted, so he sought a political win by damaging Trump by whatever means available. This situation is pure spite.
"The Democrats want to win while inflicting a loss on Trump. Durbin saw he wasn't going to get what he wanted, so he sought a political win by damaging Trump by whatever means available. This situation is pure spite."
This is my take exactly. Well said.
“and that we to see enforced”
Except that the mass of Democrats and LLRs couldn’t care less about enforcement. Which is exactly why the wildly improbable Donald Trump is President. So Trump can say shithouse every 30 seconds as long as he produces results on immigration enforcement, but the Democrats and LLRs can’t even begin to understand that.
If Trump favours (sorry for Canadian spelling) a merit or points-based immigration system, whereas a who's who of famous politicians favour something like open borders, or even a deliberate preference for some of the most bombed-out or hollowed-out countries in the world (where the unlucky people who remain there are unlikely to do well on a points system),one might ask on MKL Day: which approach is tougher on African-Americans?
My poli sci background combined with generally being anti-anti-Trump makes me look forward to off-year elections that might be a referendum on open borders (or prefer the very needy--not as exceptional refugees, on a small scale, but as mainstream immigrants on a huge scale): yes or no.
Trump can’t understand a world where you hire someone to do a job and then it’s somehow OK for them to go and do whatever they please.
Illegal immigration is an unsolvable problem because no one really wants to solve it. Those that want to change the staus of those here illegally don’t want to do anything to stop the future flow. Those who want to stop the future flow don’t want to reward those who broke the law in the past. I have never heard anyone state in public or private what they think a comprehensive solution would be.
If you want a laugh, look at what the sainted Cesar Chavez said about immigrant agricultural wokers. Hint: he was strongly opposed.
"We know saying a place is a shithole is NOT the same as saying that a person is inferior by virtue of their skin color."
While that is obvious to many of us, I don't think Durbin and his media lackeys are trying to rile up Americans as a whole. All of this outrage is aimed at getting blacks to buy into the "racist" characterization so they will turn out and vote next fall. Many of them didn't show up in 2016 and Trump and the loss of more Dem seats was the result.
The Dems are cynically betting that the low black unemployment rate and higher rates of black home ownership will mean nothing if they can keep pounding "Trump is racist! Trump is KKK!" into the heads of blacks. The donks can't afford to lose that constituency - not yet. I'd like to say blacks will use though the ruse and understand they are being used, but I have seen no evidence that that is true. Only a few grasp how they are being manipulated.
Durbin is a well-known piece of shit. He drew the logical conclusion from the way that Trump looked at him.
I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that importing millions of unskilled people into the country hurts poor blacks more than anybody. It drives down wages and from what I understand low income Hispanics and low income blacks have little love for each other.
So blacks should be even opposed to illegal immigration and amnesty than anybody and yet you can turn on any news station and see some black DNC spokesman or pol passionately arguing in favor of both.
My own guess as to why that is is that they don't care if it hurts blacks if it also hurts whites. Hurting whites, especially deplorables, is the main thing.
Dick Durbin is a shithead and an asshole.
Since he's my Senator, I can say that with absolute certainty.
Charges of racism have become meaningless today. When academics say that math and statistics are racist, we know that it has reached the point of absurdity.
The race card and my white guilt card are both maxed out.
Charges of diversity when we live with institutional diversity are bigoted, mere projections of a diversitist.
What would happen to the media if Trump just said nothing for 48 hours - no tweets, nothing?
Would they just sit there staring at their cameras and keyboards, waiting, frantically searching their sources for a word, any word, only to have Trump state emphatically that he prefers "setee". Then the unleashing of 48 hours of outrage.
It's Martin Luther King Day. Where do we want to go with this?
We might try -- for once, just for kicks -- MLK's way, which was the way of love and reconciliation.
"within the best of us, there is some evil, and within the worst of us, there is some good. When we come to see this, we take a different attitude toward individuals. The person who hates you most has some good in him; even the nation that hates you most has some good in it; even the race that hates you most has some good in it. . . .
"hate for hate only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. If I hit you and you hit me and I hit you back and you hit me back and go on, you see, that goes on ad infinitum. It just never ends. . . . it is all a descending spiral, ultimately ending in destruction for all and everybody. Somebody must have sense enough and morality enough to cut off the chain of hate and the chain of evil in the universe. And you do that by love.
"hate distorts the personality of the hater. We usually think of what hate does for the individual hated or the individuals hated or the groups hated. But it is even more tragic, it is even more ruinous and injurious to the individual who hates. You just begin hating somebody, and you will begin to do irrational things. You can’t see straight when you hate. You can’t walk straight when you hate. You can’t stand upright. Your vision is distorted. There is nothing more tragic than to see an individual whose heart is filled with hate. He comes to the point that he becomes a pathological case. . . .
"Hate at any point is a cancer that gnaws away at the very vital center of your life and your existence. It is like eroding acid that eats away the best and the objective center of your life. So Jesus says love, because hate destroys the hater as well as the hated. . . .
"And I’m foolish enough to believe that through the power of this love somewhere, men of the most recalcitrant bent will be transformed. And then we will be in God’s kingdom. We will be able to matriculate into the university of eternal life because we had the power to love our enemies, to bless those persons that cursed us, to even decide to be good to those persons who hated us, and we even prayed for those persons who despitefully used us.
-- MLK, Sermon of 17 November 1957
It's Martin Luther King Day. Where do we want to go with this?
Since this is the 50th anniversary year of his assassination, we might also use this year to, instead of reducing him to a single speech and single letter, study and learn more about him and his brilliant thought as expressed in sermons, speeches and writings.
@Mark, I am old enough to have participated in Civil Rights demonstrations. My ideals come from that time. I view the Democrats fifty years after Martin Luther King, Jr’s death as being totally counter-aligned with King’s ideals.
Fifty years after the death of Martin Luther King, Jr., I can think of no black politicians I admire, not even Tim Scott. I would like to ask Mia Love, if Haiti is not a shithole, her parents chose to leave it.
Say what you will about Trump he has the toughest emotional hide of any POTUS since Truman. Says what he says, and FU if you don't like it. Kind of refreshing after decades outright liars like LBJ, Nixon, Bush 41, Clinton, Obama, & and that crack-brained imbecile Bush 43. Not talking about his policies here, just DJT's thick emotional armor.
I don't think Durbin and his media lackeys are trying to rile up Americans as a whole. All of this outrage is aimed at getting blacks to buy into the "racist" characterization so they will turn out and vote next fall. Many of them didn't show up in 2016 and Trump and the loss of more Dem seats was the result.
Read an interesting analysis last week of Trump approval. The only two groups that showed a marked increase in support for Trump over 2017 were Black males and Hispanic males. Interesting, eh?
Althouse asks, "Where do we want to go with this?"
Here is where I want to go with it: I want to get to the truth of what was said. No more, no less.
I am not a policymaker, and I am not a blog-author. I don't need to win votes, and I don't make policy. I don't need any community, and I am not selling t-shirts, and my income does not depend on people using an Amazon portal to buy stuff.
And the reason that I want so very, very much to know what was said, is because people want to play this both ways. Trump fans want to say to one another that it is fine to talk about "shithole countries" because that is, like, some real common sense that is politically incorrect which makes it all the better.
But Trump and the White House don't seem to want to admit it.
I like wedge issues. I like the things that force people to make real, hard decisions and to take sides. This is one of those. I want all Republicans to take a side on this; but I want them to have all the facts that they need, to do that. I want there to be no doubt about what was said; and then people can decide whether it was okay or not.
Well of course, Trump meant "taking the heat" from his supporters for a bi-partisan agreement, not "taking the heat" for using strong language in private.
Who care whether Trump is "Racist"? Anyone who disagrees with a "Never trumper" "Neo-con" or Liberal is a "racist".
Every Republican POTUS has been labeled a racist. Every white person has been labeled a racist. Racist/Racist/Racist.
Republicans are going to have up with something better than "I'm the least racist person there is" and "Hey, I'm not a racist".
That's why Miss Lindsey and Romney are such traitorous shits.
By constantly calling people on their own side "racists" - they give ammo to the Left and prevent the conservatives and Republicans from coming up with a good reply to these constant attacks.
I like wedge issues. I like the things that force people to make real, hard decisions and to take sides.
Chuck may be the only person left who truly cares about this, but not for his stated reason.
The left has decided it doesn't matter what words he used because his intent was racist, full stop. The right has decided it doesn't matter what works he used, because he was discussing policy, not people, and therefore couldn't be racist even if Trump said it while wearing a Klan hood.
So as far as choosing goes, people have chosen and already moved on.
You however have gone back to your old trope - that Trump is a habitual liar and you're out to get everyone to agree with you. You're not interested in the word per se, but only to the extent it confirms your belief that Trump's follow-up Tweet was a demonstrable lie.
So stop kidding yourself. You don't want people to make some sort of difficult decision. You're trying to come up with one bulletproof example you can use to support your thesis. One bulletproof example you can use to then impugn everything which has and will come out of his mouth.
One bulletproof example, which in a year of his presidency you've been unable to clearly present to the Althouse readership.
Oh sure, you guys go all out making funny shit jokes about this and minimizing the importance.
I, for one, thank whatever God or Gods in charge for putting Chuck here to restore gravitas to the conversation.
I want to hear the tape. And not some bullshit Richard Nixon 18 minute gap thing. Then, and only then, will AllReasonableMen be able to discuss this travesty intelligently.
Meanwhile, sure am happy Trump did not nuke North Korea in retaliation for the liberal employee purposely sending the false missile message.
Close call, with senile big button prez and all.
For many reporters their mouth is a bullshithole.
“Durbin saw he wasn't going to get what he wanted, so he sought a political win by damaging Trump by whatever means available. This situation is pure spite.”
Maybe a bit of spite,but also maybe a bit of CYA, for the Dems in the Senate getting played by Trump, and finding themselves in the untenable position of threatening to shut down the govt, and emperil the country by cutting funding off to the military, despite their being deployed in combat around the world, etc. the only real leverage they have is over the budget, and they, being the party of big govt, are not the party to play this card. They don’t dare go into the Nov election having actually shut the govt down. But DACA is illegal, and all those “Dreamers” will ultimately face deportation, to countries some of them can’t even remember. The only deal that the Dems are going to get on DACA includes an end to chain migration and paying for the wall. Thanks to Trump, too many Americans now realize that DACA normalization w/o ending chain migration means doing the same for the parents, mostly also illegals, who brought their kids here illegally, as well as their other kids, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc, indeed, entire villages of illiterate peasants from shit House countries around the world. Turbin and the other Dems may be able to keep that reality from their constituents, but not from GOP or Trump voters.
The Little Old Lady said...
There is one key date missing on Ann's timeline- the January 9th decision by the judge in Ca that reinstated DACA, which came after the televised meeting.
That reset the table for the Dems. They had been forced to negotiate when Trump ended the DACA program. But after that court decision, they no longer had to make a deal because no one was going to lose their work permits while this worked its way through the courts.
I suspect Trump found that out at at the Jan 11th meeting, said something intemperate and Durbin leaked it as a way to end the DACA negotiations and make Trump's supposed racism look like the reason.
"Where do we want to go with this?"
Some people want to seek unity and deal with finding real answers to real problems.
Others want to obsess about petty, ultimately inconsequential things, while also favoring division and wedges between people.
As far as future meetings go --
From now on, when folks walk into the room for what they think will be a private meeting where they can talk freely, they should see a big tape recorder on the table.
Or, especially when Durbin is involved, when they think they are having a private meeting, Trump should simply invite the NYT, Wash Post, and rest of the media to stay in the room. If people are going to run to the media to tell them that so-and-so was said at a confidential meeting anyway, then they may as well keep the media in the room in the first place, particularly so that these sources can no longer make things up.
Dems: Sorry all you Dreamers. We Dems tried, but we can't help you. Now you're going to get kicked out of the country.
Dreamers: But why?
Dems: Because Trump said, "shit hole countries."
Dreamers: Huh?
Dems: Yeah, Trump said, "shit hole." So -- you're screwed, the government is shutting down and we're getting nuked by North Korea. You know, we would help prevent all these things if we could, but Trump said, "shit hole," so it is out of our hands.
and my income does not depend on people using an Amazon portal to buy stuff.
Wow Chuckles...i used to think you were a professional Moby...but it turns out you're just a self-important asshole.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/01/dick-durbin-blew-up-daca-deliberately
“The Washington Post did not say in its article disclosing the alleged Trump comment who the source was. But given Durbin’s history of lying about comments made behind closed doors and deliberate attempt to portray “chain migration” as a racist term, it’s reasonable to believe it was Durbin or someone acting for Durbin.
Why would Durbin deliberately seek to blow up the negotiations? John Hinderaker makes a good point, aside from Durbin’s history of doing such things:
‘This story is a good illustration of the bizarre times in which we live. Trump made a good point in a private meeting with a small number of legislators. He may have used profanity while doing so, but he wasn’t making a speech. His political enemy, Dick Durbin, then ran to the press to damage Trump by quoting–probably misquoting–his private comments. The press jumped on the story eagerly, assuming Durbin’s account was correct and happily damaging America’s interests, as Democrats and Democratic reporters smugly told us was happening. Lost in the shuffle was the fact that Trump is right about immigration–chain migration and the lottery are crazy and need to go, in favor of a merit-based system–and a large majority of Americans agree with him.’
The negotiations were not going Durbin’s way. Trump was taking a much harder line than expected. So Durbin went for the Hail Mary pass, to make it into a racism issue. The “s–thole” press strategy was just part of it, as was the “chain migration” terminology.
Durbin wasn’t going to get his way on DACA, so he blew it up, figuring it will be better as a campaign issue.”
The negotiations were not going Durbin’s way.
Obama’s style of negotiation was “Here’s what I want, now give it to me.” I guess he learned it from Durbin.
@Meade, the other day the woman you’ve given your heart to suggested that Republicans in general and Trump in particular benefited from there being no deal. Can you slip us a clue as to whether she has changed her mind, given that it is now clear that prospects for a deal have been torpedoed by Democrats with the enthusiastic assistance of their allies in the media?
@Gahrie, as Glenn Reynolds is wont to say, embrace the healing power of “and.”
"Where do we want to go with this?"
Durbin is a piece of shit. Has been for a long time.
The economy is booming. Wages for working class americans are going up. The Pew Poll on economic optimism has never seen a higher score. The DNC/FBI/Swamp is about to face mass indictments. They took a shot at the king and missed. This summer will be about consequences.
The democrats have one issue: RACIST RACIST RACISM!! They know it isn't enough.
Where we go from here is to be ready for a long hot summer full of democrat violence and RACISM RACIST RACY RACISM!!!
I'm very glad to hear that Haiti and all the other TPS countries are not "sh!thole places"
That means we can send back all those refugees, yes?
Works for me
They don't even realize they are dancing to his tune, the little monkeys!
Racist!!!!
Had CNN on while I was reading today. Have noted that there is an abrupt stoppage is saying the "shit" part of shithouse, which was incessantly repeated over the weekend. Lindsey Graham, earlier in the day, complained that people have to ask the kids out of the room if CNN on. I don't think that is associated with the sudden stoppage. Perhaps CNN can be embarrassed that their coverage sounds like yankee stadium (or some other ball field if you are a yank fan).
Does it really matter whether or not Trump said shitholes (or shithouses or shitheads or shitanything) in a private conversation with a small group of Senators talking about possible legislation? If Trump didn't use the shitword (I believe he didn't), then Durbin is a lying disloyal partisan hack son of a bitch for leaking that Trump did use the shitword. If Trump did use the shitword in that situation, then Durbin is a disloyal partisan hack son of a bitch for leaking that Trump used the shitword (but not a liar -- this time).
If Trump used the word it only proves that he sometimes uses crude language in private conversation. How many people have never used crude language in private conversations? Show of hands, please. My hand isn't up. The whole partisan-media complex is talking as though Trump had called Haiti a shithole in the State of the Union address. This is a phoney issue, and all sensible people know it (or will when they get around to thinking about it).
I thank God we had Martin Luther King come along and carry out a needed reform, namely, getting rid of legal segregation. He was less popular than Trump for most of his life but King carried through a great change in the face of the ugliest sort of name-calling. He is an example to all of us.
It's been three days and already the story of what Trump said is being changed. Soon it will be gone. I think we all know that Africans are much better than the governments most of them are enduring just as Americans are much better than CNN. We'd both like to get away from the hole thing.
If is racist to hope that the United States does not become more like Haiti, it is time to embrace racism. But to my mind it is the culture, not the color.
Did someone way up above in the comments quote MLK saying essentially that there was some good in everyone? Something like President Trump said about the folks in Charlottesville?
Durbin has shown that he is not trustworthy to keep confidences. And/or a liar. Since there are 2 Senators who deny Trump said "sh*tholes", and only one report of Trump saying it, we can conclude that Durbin is a liar also.
But the way the media has treated this hearsay as TRUTH is astounding, and shows their abject fear of Trump, as well as their intense bias against him.
You know you are over the target when you are taking a lot of flak, and Trump is targeting immigration. Thus, all the flak. Which means he is fighting the right fight for Americans, to prevent them from becoming the sh*tholes of Latin America, Africa, and the Middle East.
Kep Hartman said...
Durbin has shown that he is not trustworthy to keep confidences. And/or a liar. Since there are 2 Senators who deny Trump said "sh*tholes", and only one report of Trump saying it, we can conclude that Durbin is a liar also.
Wow it is so ironic that you post a comment like this, and go on to blame the media:
But the way the media has treated this hearsay as TRUTH is astounding, and shows their abject fear of Trump, as well as their intense bias against him.
For the record, Dick Durbin says that Trump used the phrase. And also, Lindsey Graham reported to his colleague Tim Scott, that the media accounts were accurate. And Jeff Flake reports that he met with the meeting participants immediately after the infamous Oval Office encounter, and they all confirmed to Flake that that was what Trump said. And that was before the story broke in the media.
To me, that is at least three people, and arguably every Republican who had been in the Oval Office (through Flake) confirming that Trump said, "shithole countries."
Tom Cotton and David Perdue first put out a joint press release stating that they did not recall Trump using the phrase. Then they each gave interviews, when the story was blowing up, claiming that they did no hear Trump using the phrase. Never did they affirmatively claim that Trump did not use the phrase. As with Trump's Secretary of Homeland Security who was in the room; she claimed that she did not hear it; not that the story was false.
It is obvious to me, and I gather that a large majority agrees, that Trump used the phrase, and instead of owning it and explaining himself (which he might be able to do), the White House has elected to pursue a strategy of claiming that Trump didn't say it at all. I do not understand that; not in the face of the countering accounts.
But it is simply false to say that only one person has confirmed the story, and that at least two people have denied it.
I want to correct myself just above.
Senator David Perdue has indeed claimed that Trump "did not use that word." Perdue said that in an interview on Sunday on ABC News' "This Week."
And again, it is so weird for Perdue to make that claim after he had put out a joint statement with Cotton stating: "We do not recall the President saying these comments specifically but what he did call out was the imbalance in our current immigration system, which does not protect American workers and our national interest..."
Perdue, incredibly, went from "...do not recall... specifically..." to "did not use that word."
Shameful.
is obvious to me, and I gather that a large majority agrees, that Trump used the phrase
So..all the Republicans are lying and the Democrats are telling the truth. Again.
Why oh why would anyone ever consider you a Moby?
Gahrie; isn't it the case that many Trump fans think that Trump used the phrase, "shithole countries"?
I'm serious. I have the clear impression that many Trump fans think that it was the right thing -- an honest, blunt, plain thing -- to say. And that they are glad he said it.
Also, that many Trump fans are unsurprised that Trump would use such language, just like other presidents have used a lot of foul language and cursing in the oval office.
And further, I am aware of many Trump fans all saying that Trump was perfectly entitled to use such language in a private meeting and that the real crime, the real breach of faith was with whoever leaked word of Trump's colorful language ("tough language") to the press.
All of it going to the simple fact that most people think that yeah, Trump said it.
I obviously do NOT think that "all the Republicans are lying..." Because I don't think that Jeff Flake and Lindsey Graham are lying.
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