December 14, 2017

"I went through a situation very similar to Margot and Robert [the characters in 'Cat Person,'] where I was in his position."

"I traveled from New York to Virginia for a friend’s wedding and ended up spending the night with one of the other guests, who was actually moving to Brooklyn in a couple weeks. As I left, she handed me a card in a little gold envelope with my name on it, with a note saying she had a good time and her number. It was enough to leave the impression that she wanted to connect in some way when she made it to Brooklyn. I followed up with her, got no response, and left a voicemail referencing how we made out at the wedding and asking if she’d like to make out again. She left me a voice-mail after that saying that my message scared her, and not to contact her again. I called her back right away (I know this was disregarding her request) and apologized, because it was upsetting, and we had mutual friends who encouraged me to contact her. Then I never contacted her again and never asked our mutual friends anything about her. It was a shitty feeling all around, and I was sickened by the thought of making her scared. Simultaneously, I felt manipulated, like that was the worst thing she could say to me to make me leave her alone. I never said that to her or anyone else before this."

Writes "Chris, 38, artist and father of two," quoted in "9 Men on Seeing Themselves in ‘Cat Person'" (New York Magazine).

65 comments:

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Don't chase after fleeting sexual opportunities with loose women. Or as the dudes put it somewhat more succinctly, don't stick your dick in crazy. It doesn't end well.

Michael K said...

All men under 50 should see Hot Crazy Matrix.

And study it. Cats put all women above the line.

BarrySanders20 said...

Sex robots.

tim in vermont said...

Women seem to think that men are some kind of public utility. They have zero empathy for us, and so they have almost no understanding of our thoughts and emotions. That's why so many men resort to "game." Fuck 'em. Play 'em like they think we should think and like they want to be played, and wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

tim in vermont said...

Most feminist analysis of men is about gaining the upper hand in some kind of power game. Women already have the upper hand, as handed to them by God/Evolution. Women can't put themselves in men's shoes because they are really only interested in a subset of men, and the rest are not worth the time to think about, and that small subset of men really does have a lot of power over them. This is why feminism utterly mystifies the vast majority of us, and most men who adopt it are just trying to get laid. It's like Scott Adams said, you guys are talking about "other men" not us.

surfed said...

Sheesh. This kind of stuff can just go on for ever. Suck it up, compartmentalize it, deal with it and move on. Please. For the love of God.

Bob Boyd said...

I met a girl who killed a lacto-vegetarian in self-defense only to become one herself.

tim in vermont said...

And men can't help but be drawn to beauty, which is the major part of our problem.

Leslie Graves said...

I am that in the Year of our Lord 2017, it turns out to be possible for a piece of short fiction and a Netflix tweet to pull people into entirely different and more normal seeming conversations that we would otherwise be in the middle of.

Tank said...

Thank God Tank is old and happily married.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Women can use words like weapons, and this was a clubbing. Do women lie? Duh. Like men use their hands, women use their mouths, to hurt, or more generally, to achieve a desired effect. (Of course there is overlap. Don't be silly.)

Do women lie about rape? Ask Janis, who was about to do something very nice to me, until my roommates walked in on us. Then something started going around-in the dining hall a day or two later, someone said that she said I... I forget the wording, but that I had assaulted her, and what did I have to say? I said, "Nothing." Never heard of it again.

But yeah, defaulting to "trust 'em?" See how that works out for you.

And if women who are mean bitches are mean bitches, such men as act that way are the same, or else an equivalent word from past times that is no longer used-cad, or bounder, or something like that.

Rick said...

As I left, she handed me a card in a little gold envelope with my name on it, with a note saying she had a good time and her number.

Uh, what?

Michael K said...

"Most feminist analysis of men is about gaining the upper hand in some kind of power game."

Who was the woman who impersonated a man for a year and then wrote about her experience?

It was almost like "Black Like Me."

Bob Boyd said...

Makes me wonder if some guy had given this girl a card like that so she would call and he would get one more ego snack out of her if nothing else. When she did, he blew her off in a similar fashion. So she decided to do it to a guy herself.

Owen said...

"...a note saying she had a good time and her number..."

Amazing. After being rebuffed, the guy should have put the original in a safe place and taped copies of it all over Brooklyn.

Sebastian said...

"All men under 50 should see Hot Crazy Matrix."

Yeah, but how are they going to get their "cluster of data points" in that "dynamic" environment?

Larvell said...

Write the same story, but with the sexes reversed -- the guy would still be the villain. "He fat-shamed her? He had sex with her and then ignored her texts because she wasn't that great in the sack? And he told all his friends about it? And then his roommate grabbed his phone and sent her a curt 'never want to see you again' text? No wonder she called him a whore!"

Henry said...

I'm not reading that story unless Nastassja Kinski is edited back in.

Like:

"And then Irena mauled Margot and Robert to death to resume her human form. The End."

james james said...

There are some guys at the bar that women may meet, then regret ever having had met. They probably didn't even have sex with them: more likely, they were simply friendly, and now that guy orbits them like a lonely planet in thrall with the sun. That was certainly more poetic than the need required, but you get the idea.

You feed a stray dog some food, and it will love you forever. Of course, when you feed a stray cat some food it will take to you, too. But then it will soon pretty much ignore you in the way cats do once their food needs are met. These guys at the bar: their needs are never fully met. So: stray dogs, in search of a warm heart.

The women would prefer the cat, to continue the analogy: they do not wish to have this guy greet them and want their attention from the moment they come in the bar. She will regret her initial kindness; he will be oblivious to her body language -- her angling her shoulder to keep him out of the conversation cone, for instance.

Most women don't want to embarrass someone socially. Okay: I said 'most women' -- that may or may not be true. I have a lot of anecdotes, but I really haven't done the math. I don't want to do that particular math; quantum physics would probably be easier to understand. Because there is probably a coherent consistency behind quantum physics. With women there are too many Xs and Ys in the algebra.

Anyway: most women at the bar don't want to embarrass these men. They are lonely, and most people can emphasize with lonely, albeit not as an unchosen lifestyle. But eventually you just want the lonely to leave you alone.

This is where her friends come in. Her friends know that she is the kind of woman to feed stray dogs and cats. And they will have no problem blocking off the guy, excluding him from their circle. And the guy usually then gets the message: a group of women can certainly get a point across when most of the women have no emotional attachment to the situation. And the guy has no self-esteem.

So the lonely guy takes his lonely to another part of the bar. But, if you watch, his eye will still be drawn to the woman who was kind to him. He will have sad dog eyes when doing this.

There are lonely women at the bar, too; perhaps another day.

- james james

Glen Filthie said...

LOL.

I am not gonna read Cat Persons. Funny how stupid people can invent incredibly complex ways to make themselves and everyone around them unhappy.

The first comment wins the internet. And the way to keep from 'sticking your dink in crazy' should be intuitively obvious: classical courtship. Initial meetings are casual and chaperoned (a darn good idea these days when any trollop can suddenly remember getting raped decades ago - and be rewarded with cash and prizes). The courtship process is long, which allows potential mates to get to know each other before committing to a serious relationship - by which I mean 'classical marriage'. The new liberal homo/pan/transsexual parodies of marriage are to be avoided at all costs - all they do is result in fat checks for divorce lawyers.

Traditional courtship and marriage evolved the way they did because THEY WORK. How hard can it be for these people?

Annie C said...

There is altogether too much navel-gazing going on lately.

Jeff Boulier said...

"Who was the woman who impersonated a man for a year and then wrote about her experience?"

Nora Vincent, "Self-Made Man". Interesting book.

Ann Althouse said...

"I am that in the Year of our Lord 2017, it turns out to be possible...."

I am —— that in the Year of our Lord 2017, it turns out to be possible...

I am dumbstruck that in the Year of our Lord 2017, it turns out to be possible...

I am delighted that in the Year of our Lord 2017, it turns out to be possible...

I am ecstatic that in the Year of our Lord 2017, it turns out to be possible...

I am restored to faith in the future that in the Year of our Lord 2017, it turns out to be possible...

...

Ann Althouse said...

"Most feminist analysis of men is about gaining the upper hand in some kind of power game...."

That's a masculine construct, the idea that life is a struggle to get and maintain the upper hand.

Analyze why you need to think about it that way.

The feminist analysis wants to liberate you from that struggle and bring you peace at last and fulfilling, equal relationships with other human beings.

lgv said...

Blogger Michael K said...
All men under 50 should see Hot Crazy Matrix.

And study it. Cats put all women above the line.


Exaggeration, but the line is now moving, and moving quickly. Bat shit crazy is becoming the new "woke". Chris, in the article, should feel very lucky he didn't connect with the woman again.

Ann Althouse said...

"Suck it up, compartmentalize it, deal with it and move on."

Again, the masculine construct.

There's nowhere to move on to. We are human beings, on earth, in our short lives, looking for love and looking for meaning.

Do you have some video game that needs playing? A sports team that needs to be watched? Leaves to rake? Bitcoin?

james james said...

"There's nowhere to move on to. We are human beings, on earth, in our short lives, looking for love and looking for meaning. "

I used a lot of words at 8:09 to try to make this same point.

It's just that the human beings on earth were more specifically in the bar.

But you can extrapolate.

- james james

Quayle said...

The masculine analysis says the feminist analysis is stupid, and only makes men weak for the battle in which they must engage for everyone to survive.

Quayle said...

Or are you suggesting, Ann, that the masculine analysis should be imbued with some feminine, and the feminine analysis should be bolstered with some masculine?

Or mutual understanding that there are two ends of an essential tension? Is that what you are advocating?

surfed said...

"Masculine constructs" work well with men. But nothing so mundane as "video games, sports teams, raking leaves or bitcoin" - which I couldnt afford anyway lol.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I felt sorry for both of the people in that story.

Robert: as a lonely, insecure, clumsy guy. He seemed to be trying but probably didn't have much experience in relationships or romance, based on his not extremely desirable physique. Being....not a movie star body with fabulous six pack abs....but just a regular and somewhat nerdy guy. His insecurities make him clumsy and resentful at the same time. I imagine his high school days were a living hell.

The girl in the story: as a very young, rather stupidly self absorbed, inexperienced yet VERY experienced in having had sex with multiple partners. She is still a child who thinks she is a woman. Treating sex like some sort of obligation instead of a precious thing between two people who are in love.

Both people seemed to be wanting something, not knowing what they want. Making up idealized stories in their minds because they can't be bothered to get to KNOW the person they are dating. How much of her life, likes and dreams has she shared with him? How can he know what she likes without being given a clue. No wonder their dates are awkward.

She tells her parents that she thinks that she and Robert are going to get married!??? WTF!!!. She doesn't know who he is or what he likes or EVEN how old he is. What does Robert do for a living? Does she know? Did she ask? What are his hopes and aspirations? He has some idealized idea in his mind and it wasn't a girl with calloused round heels.

Virtual relationships, texting, imagining, not talking, jumping into bed after the first few dates. Instant relationships. None of those things are going to make for a lasting loving experience.

I'm sad for all of them.

Birches said...

Beta males and women with no self confidence in the moment. What could go wrong?

Saint Croix said...

What's interesting in the movie The Red Pill is how all the men's rights activists are talking about losing their children, and how unfair divorce court is, and all the anti-male bias in our system. Anyway, they have complaints. And the filmmaker, a feminist, is trying to process this vision of the world. And so she starts talking to feminists. And all they want to talk about is…

money, money, money, money

Leslie Graves said...

I am ecstatic and restored to faith in the future, and a bad typist and proofreader.

Rick said...

The feminist analysis wants to liberate you from that struggle and bring you peace at last and fulfilling, equal relationships with other human beings.

Sounds just like communism.

But seriously how could you possibly boil down feminism to this? This may be your vision but that's why you're in the wind. Do you see yourself as the Keeper of the Flame in exile?

Larvell said...

"Most feminist analysis of men is about gaining the upper hand in some kind of power game...."

That's a masculine construct, the idea that life is a struggle to get and maintain the upper hand.

Analyze why you need to think about it that way.


There goes Ann, trying to gain the upper hand ...

Rick said...

She is still a child who thinks she is a woman.

I'm struck by so many people trying to generalize from her experience to larger societal forces. The problem is she's too immature to understand herself and thus lacks the confidence to act. He seems very similar. A little introspection and they shouldn't make the same mistake again.

Seeing Red said...

The feminist analysis wants to liberate you from that struggle and bring you peace at last and fulfilling, equal relationships with other human beings.



Bwaaaaaaaaaaa

tim in vermont said...

The feminist analysis wants to liberate you from that struggle and bring you peace at last and fulfilling, equal relationships with other human beings"

Yes. Evolution never happened. We were created by a loving God who designed our bodies, brains, and hormones so that just such a plan was possible, and only left it to us to discover it!

Somebody who believes that a chaotic universes and evolution might lead to a situation where ten percent of the women are earnestly desired by 90% of the men, and 10% of the men are desired by 90% of the women, and it's a shit show for the rest of us, well, that's illogical!

tim in vermont said...

I do think that one of the main problems with the public face of modern feminism is that so many lesbians have elbowed their way to the podium. Who could be more feminist than a woman who loves women? Right? I don't have the experience of the bankwalkers, bragarts, and all around Don Juans who comment here, but my experience has been that women like "PIV" sex, and feminism should have laughed women who said otherwise off of the stage.

For starters.

Saint Croix said...

I am not gonna read Cat Persons.

You ought to. It's good!

My takeaway is that orgasms matter and you want her to have a big one.

Also, sit-ups.

Don't go whiny, don't plead, don't beg, don't suck up, and don't let your voice go high. And be happy when you get laid, brother. Basically the man in that story was a charity case and she was doing charity work and you terrified her with your, "More, more, more, I need more!"

I think the lesson for many leftists is that an Eloi should never have sex with a Morlock. That's what you get for trying to date a Morlock.

I don't know, it's a cool story. Works on many levels. Margot is interesting enough for a short story and/or a one-night stand, but I think she would drive me crazy in a novel and/or long-term relationship. She's the definition of an unreliable narrator. You just can't rely on that Margot. "We're going to get married. No, wait. I think he's trying to kill me."

We like to date young because they're the baby-makers, but also there's a lot of damn princesses among the just-out-of-daycare set. So I understand why he wants to date young. Nice firm tits! With an immature mind that can get you in trouble. You could easily end up unemployed. On the other hand, nice firm tits! So go for it, not-so-old guy. Do some sit-ups. And don't forget a wingman next time you invade the undergrad bar.

bgates said...

The feminist analysis wants to liberate you from that struggle and bring you peace at last and fulfilling, equal relationships with other human beings.

That sounds like what Richard Spencer is trying to do, according to Richard Spencer.

tim in vermont said...

Islam has sexual socialism. Probably not true, I would be willing to bet that the old men have usurped the power of feminine beauty, parceling it out themselves in arranged marriages and keeping the peace with Burkas.

Saint Croix said...

"9 Men on Seeing Themselves in ‘Cat Person'"

If this was a Dog Story that headline would read…

9 Men Who Are Showing Their Bellies

Chris N said...

I’m pretty sure the desire for meaning (including ‘not to be lonely’), and the desire for equality (fairness? justice? lack of injustice?) have some overlap, but must they go together?

We desire many things aside from equality, like freedom, which may come into conflict with equality.

Men and women desire each other, and Althouse is exceptionally fair-minded, principled and intelligent, and as a result has attracted a lot of men, quite a few women, and a lot of reasonable, fair-minded people to her blog.

But even she can only speak as a woman across a divide, and she has also allied herself with other women and a movement full of mostly women (driven by lots of outliers (lesbians), unstable and lonely types who really didn’t like the old rules and may not like any rules) who often can’t deal with men individually and identify and attack men as a group. They have gained great purchase in many institutions and laws in this country, and we are wading through the institutional, legal, political and social consequences.

Althouse has gained freedoms, many to most women have gained some freedoms and opportunities, and the appeal is that all men have gained freedoms and opportunities, but is all the preceding really true? Clearly these supposed goods can’t be labeled under abstract principles of equality?

tim in vermont said...

So Islam has socialism in practice, just not in theory.

glenn said...

Back in the dark ages of the 50’s we called girls who slept around punchboards.

MadisonMan said...

Leaves to rake?

In this weather? Aren't they all frozen to the ground by now?

Patrick Henry was right! said...

Professor, the concept of masculine and feminine perspectives is a neo-marxist fantasy that, like all the rest (like gender fluidity and strength through diversity) are offered as truisms without any scientific basis or proof.
And yet you embrace these myths as fact. What other parts of your life experience are based on assumed ridiculousness?

Either God made male and female as he wished, or male and female evolved as they did. There is no other option.

Leftists, Marxists and Socialits are at war with reality. They prefer the Matrix. Why would you wasn't to be in the Matrix, rather than be in real life?

Real life, real science, real, individual, people.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Back in the dark ages of the 50’s we called girls who slept around punchboards.

The town pump.

Gahrie said...

The feminist analysis wants to liberate you from that struggle and bring you peace at last and fulfilling, equal relationships with other human beings.

Apparently Althouse hasn't read a book by a feminist, or actually spoken to a feminist, in forty years.

Modern feminism in fact argues that men are toxic. Heterosexuality is a tool of oppression used by the Patriarchy. All penis in vagina sex is violence.

Feminism today is about emasculating and eliminating males.

John Lynch said...

Every time something like this comes up I'm struck by the fact that I have no personal experience with it. I am on good terms with all my ex's, I am happily married, and I don't think I'm a particularly nice or special man. I'm middle-aged now and have lived a life. I don't think I am lucky or atypical.

I think it comes down to decisions. If you have a low bar for intimacy you will have problems. I would not be with a woman I didn't know very well and could trust. By know very well, I mean years. Being shallow about looks is a recipe for heartbreak. I was blessed by being nondescript. I had to develop other qualities. It's worked out.

The people with the rage and angst against the opposite sex are those that made bad choices. Sorry, you did. Once or twice is bad luck. Over and over is you. Either you turned down too many people or you didn't turn down enough. The people you date are a mirror. They say more about you than almost anything else. I'm proud of the women I chose. They are all decent people. If the women who will be with you are all jerks, what does that say about you? If your filter doesn't include sanity, who's to blame when you end up with crazy?

It's all sour grapes. I figured all this out fairly young by listening to women complain, and now I hear the same crap from men. I think it's the same group of people, mirroring each other. It's your own responsibility.

R.J. Chatt said...

Competition is basic to male self esteem, so telling guys to get off the treadmill of power struggle is really like talking in a foreign language. John Gray (Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus) does a good job helping heterosexual couples learn each others' languages so they don't end up hating each other. Guys who want a meaningful relationship with a woman get past the power struggle stage and learn good communication skills; those guys who never get past the power struggle stage never have close emotional relationships with women. Intimate relationships have to include emotions so guys are a disadvantage if they have not developed communication skills. I suppose they believe that PIV is all there is because that's all they've got.

"All men under 50 should see Hot Crazy Matrix." The thing about all women being crazy applies most of all to women who place their sense of value and self worth in the hands of men, so of course they are crazy because they are always at the mercy of how someone else reacts to them. The guy describing his model of women thinks he is referring to all women but ironically he's referring to his subset of women he's attracted to who would even bother with an arrogant "prince" like him. If I were to draw a hot/crazy chart I'd put the crazy and hot axis as parallel lines, not perpendicular; at least that was my experience. Also, transwomen are about as crazy as you can get.

Gahrie said...

The feminist analysis wants to liberate you from that struggle and bring you peace at last and fulfilling, equal relationships with other human beings.

Except for splooge stooges...fuck them.

Simon Kenton said...

"As I left, she handed me a card in a little gold envelope with my name on it, with a note saying she had a good time and her number."

Right. I dated or attempted to date MC. She would say, "Oh. I'd love to. But I'm tied up friday. Next time you're going, I want you to invite me." Or she would say, "good. I want to go. See you then."

I have sympathy for Chris. Imagine the effrontery, the blundering male insensitivity - taking "a little gold envelope with my name on it, with a note saying she had a good time and her number" as an indication that she wanted to get together. How clod-like of him. With MC it took a couple instances to get my translator running. "Whatever she said" => "I never want to date you." The more exuberant the acceptance the more heartfelt the rejection.

It was easy to predict her romantic life would work out badly and so it did. The effect on my subsequent dating was to make me a lot more elusive. At the first hint of indirection I was done. MC taught me math; of 7B in the world, 3.5B have a yoni. Vast numbers from that cohort must belong to sensible, affectionate, direct, non-cat persons.

Jupiter said...

Ann Althouse said...

"The feminist analysis wants to liberate you from that struggle and bring you peace at last and fulfilling, equal relationships with other human beings."

Like Andrea Dworkin, Catherine MacKinnon and Valerie Solanis.

Jupiter said...

Gahrie said...

"Feminism today is about emasculating and eliminating males."

Well, that's what we call "cutting edge" feminism. But that is not the only feminism there is. There are many different feminisms. More feminisms than there are females. In fact, defining "feminism" is just one more instance of the Iron Rule of Women - Women insist upon having it both ways.

Sebastian said...

"Women insist upon having it both ways." Sure: being equal yet special. But "both" is not enough. Now add: having autonomy but suffering weakness, being an agent but entitled to whine without accountability.

Jupiter said...

In woman-speak, "both" means "every possible. Have your cake, eat it too, someone else pays for it, you don't gain any weight. With ice cream, chocolate and vanilla. Someone takes a picture of you having your cake and eating it too, and you look ravishing. And they pay you to do it!

pious agnostic said...

As I left, she handed me a card in a little gold envelope with my name on it, with a note saying she had a good time and her number.

Maybe she was a marketer. She had two or more envelopes prepared, and supplied the one that applied to her current campaign. Different phone numbers. Then, she tried out different methods of rejecting the callers (after carefully recording the rates at which each number is called).

She was just doing a little scientific data gathering, testing different techniques. Expect her article in an upcoming issue of Feminist Marketing Quarterly.

cubanbob said...

"Most feminist analysis of men is about gaining the upper hand in some kind of power game...."

That's a masculine construct, the idea that life is a struggle to get and maintain the upper hand.

Analyze why you need to think about it that way.

The feminist analysis wants to liberate you from that struggle and bring you peace at last and fulfilling, equal relationships with other human beings."

Question to the commenters here: which of these two observations cleaves closer to objective reality?

CJ said...

What Chris didn't understand was that he had enjoyed the kind of sex that, for a woman, doesn't count. In this case it Didn't Count because it was out of town. It had also been stimulated because it was after a wedding. A wedding is a great place to pick up chicks because for women it's like a touchdown for the home team. I don't blame him for trying to follow up, but the voicemail was a mistake. Maybe a discreet text or two letting her know he was coming to NYC would have been okay, but when she didn't respond he should have let it drop. The voicemail was a rookie mistake -- he was in her home town now, and he had only been a fling that Didn't Count. Learn from this youngstaz.

tim in vermont said...

From Althouse's link:

For women who work in the Palestinian territories, this more nuanced feminism means working to end the occupation so that women's rights can be codified; so that personal-status laws in the West Bank and Gaza—which currently pull from Jordanian, Egyptian, and pre-secular Ottoman law—can reflect indigenous efforts to develop a constitution and a feasible legal framework


Feminism = leftism. I am sure that getting out from under the brutal patriarchal yoke of Israeli law and safely under the protective ministrations of Islamic law will free these women in ways they can't even imagine.

Anonymous said...

Michael K said:

"Who was the woman who impersonated a man for a year and then wrote about her experience?"

Norah Vincent. "One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man."

A fascinating read. Though warped by the fact that she is a lesbian and predisposed to hate men. She was quite shocked that many men genuinely cherish women.

Rick said...

She was quite shocked that many men genuinely cherish women.

At the end of her research she told some of those she became friends with she was a woman. She was surprised to find out they had previously believed she was gay and didn't care.