November 20, 2017

The problem with calling Roy Moore a pedophile.

Rachel Hope Cleves (a history professor) and Nicholas L. Syrett (a gender studies professor) write in the Washington Post that it's important to set the label "pedophile" aside and confine it to its technically correct meaning ("recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger)"), because...
In the midst of a storm of allegations against powerful men in the world of politics and entertainment, we should see Moore not as an outlier but as another man who allegedly used his position to focus on those who he believed were the most vulnerable.
There are a lot of comments on this op-ed, and many of the most-liked ones don't get the point, and seem to insist on saying "pedophile" because they hate what Moore allegedly did and want to use a strong word to express that and they're not interested in sparing Moore on a technicality.  There are also many other commenters telling these people they didn't understand the article or just read the headline — "Roy Moore is not a pedophile" — and jumped into the comments section.

The authors, Cleves and Syrett, are not out to go easy on Moore. They're interested in going big attacking men in general. Moore may be an extreme case, going after young teenagers, but he's in a set of men that can't be isolated and ostracized as easily as pedophiles. Putting him in the category of men who pursue sex by exploiting a power differential integrates him with men we have not exiled from decent society, but it also creates potential for influencing the bad behavior of many more men. And that's what Cleves and Syrett are eager to do.

166 comments:

Fernandistien said...

The 'pedophile' issue is related to the Strindberg post where he insultingly described neoteny -

"Doug Jones, a visiting scholar in anthropology at Cornell University, said that human evolution's trend toward neoteny may have been caused by sexual selection in human evolution for neotenous facial traits in women by men with the resulting neoteny in male faces being a "by-product" of sexual selection for neotenous female faces. Jones said that this type of sexual selection "likely" had a major role in human evolution once a larger proportion of women lived past the age of menopause. This increasing proportion of women who were too old to reproduce resulted in a greater variance in fecundity in the population of women, and it resulted in a greater sexual selection for indicators of youthful fecundity in women by men."

Quaestor said...

Opinion pieces in the Washington Post and their attendant comments are as enlightening as conversations in a madhouse.

Bad Lieutenant said...

but it also creates potential for influencing the bad behavior of many more men. And that's what Cleves and Syrett are eager to do.

How can we influence the sleepwalking of daydreamers, blind to drones and car crashes alike until too late?

CWJ said...

"Moore may be an extreme case, going after young teenagers,..." Going? Present tense?

rhhardin said...

Women's feelings rule remains overarching. It's a strategy discussion.

Mike Sylwester said...

Evil hoaxster Beverly Young Nelson says that Roy Moore molested her when she was 14 years old. She is a fabricator. She is the woman who altered the yearbook inscription.

Moore did flirt with girls in the local mall. The girls telling those mall stories are largely truthful. Their ages at the time ranged from 16 to 22 -- all at least the age of consent. Those girls say that Moore acted rather properly (aside from the age difference).

Another accuser is Leigh Corfman, who was 14 years old at the time. Her story is dubious, but she has not clearly discredited herself. She is the woman who has three bankruptcies and a series of criminal convictions.

It seems to me that the five mall girls portray Moore's actual activities.

SonofNewo has a good overview of the accusations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlqyvPn_1hI

M Jordan said...

I’m not buying the allegations. Memory spin, imho.

Ann Althouse said...

"The 'pedophile' issue is related to the Strindberg post where he insultingly described neoteny...."

Elsewhere in the play:

1. "A few years ago my younger brother met a wonderful girl. She was innocent and beautiful. She had long blonde hair and big blue eyes; the face of a child and the soul of an angel. He fell wildly and deeply in love with her. And she emasculated him. Adolph What? Gustav She wrestled from him the male privilege of taking the initiative in the relationship. Oh, she turned out to be an angel all right. An angel of death. She very nearly crucified him. It drove him to fits."

2. "Do you remember the first time we met? You were so full of delight, but you were still a blank page – your parents and teachers had scrawled a few notes but in essence – you were a book that remained to be written. So every night we wrote and wrote. That’s why I don’t envy your husband – his desires are his business, of course – if he wants to read someone else’s book at night then so be it – but what’s so lovely about meeting you now is finding that our minds still mesh together so perfectly. Talking to you – it’s like drinking an old wine of my own bottling – I remember the first taste, but now it’s come back to me and it’s mature and complex and – fine. And now that I’m about to get married again, of course, I’ve deliberately chosen a younger girl – she’s only twenty – another girl in whose pages I can write, I suppose. Maybe I’m too old for her, but that’s how it is, isn’t it? The woman is the child of the man. She forms herself around him. If the man’s weak, she finds she’s grasping at air. She might not know why, but she feels as if she’s endlessly falling."

Strindberg, August. Creditors: in an English version (p. 62). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition.

Strindberg, August. Creditors: in an English version (pp. 61-62). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition.

Mike Sylwester said...

The US Senate should investigate the matter. The US Senate should investigate the hoax that is being perpetrated to affect an upcoming election to fill an empty seat in the US Senate. That is a proper subject for a Senate investigation.

Follow the money. The Senate can obtain bank records and telephone records of the hoaxster Beverly Young Nelson and of her enabler Gloria Allred. Then the Senate can summon them to question them about the funding of their hoax.

Spiros Pappas said...

It's highly unlikely that Mr. Moore is a pedophile. In fact, there may be nothing unusual in his sexual makeup at all. Maybe Mr. Moore was acting out because of stress or emotional immaturity or difficulties he encountered in his adult relationships? Don't get me wrong, he crossed a line in his behavior and he's a total prick. Obviously many of these teenage girls were incapable of consent, his abuse was not an "affair" and he failed to recognize the power imbalance in his relationships with these girls. Mr. Moore should be in jail. He's gross.

Ken B said...

I get shouted at (online) whenever I make this distinction. But it's an important one. The motivations (and possible responses meant to remediate) differ significantly.

Michael K said...

I know Inga does not want me to address her but I thought she might be interested in this CDSC report on women committing rape.

Nearly 7% of men, however, reported that at some point in their lives, they were "made to penetrate" another person — usually in reference to vaginal intercourse, receiving oral sex, or performing oral sex on a woman. This was not classified as rape, but as "other sexual violence." And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being "made to penetrate" — either by physical force or due to intoxication — at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1% in 2010, and 1.7% and 1.6% respectively in 2011).

Heavens !

tcrosse said...

@Althouse - Imagine memorizing those lines. How do they do it ?

Hagar said...

The word "alleged" needs to be inserted here.

Not only has Roy Moore not been convicted yet; he has not even been charged.

The more I read, the more sceptical I get. The stakes are just so high in areas that have nothing to do with Roy Moore personally, and if they can just carry it beyond December 12, they can apologize fulsomely later and decry the "rush to judgement."

Michael K said...

Obviously many of these teenage girls were incapable of consent,

The age of consent is 16 and was at the time. The only accusation from a woman alleging younger age is the one with three bankruptcies, three divorces and other factors including the dates of the alleged event, which was when she was 16.

Maybe you need to calm down.

Laslo Spatula said...

If you plan on having a large family it is best to start with a young woman.

You're not going to have a nine-children family starting out with a thirty-eight year-old.

Unless she is taking fertility drugs, and then it would still probably take two litters.

I am Laslo.

Mike Sylwester said...

Women are most sexually attractive at the age of 17.

The cicada cycle is likewise 17 years, and the logic is that 17 is a somewhat large prime number.

Because cicadas appear in huge numbers every 17 years, there are too many of them for their natural predators. Their huge number is their survival method.

Their predators generate anew in shorter cycles. The predator population is limited by the availability of prey. The cycles of the predators and prey are in natural harmony.

The New Yorker magazine has an interesting article about the cicada cycle titled "The Cicada's Love Affair With Prime Numbers".

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-cicadas-love-affair-with-prime-numbers

I speculate that maybe humans have some extremely ancient gene that optimizes human-female fertility likewise in 17-year periods.

James K said...

Moore may be an extreme case, going after young teenagers

Wow, not even an "allegedly"? Until there's actual evidence or an admission, this seems rather presumptuous. Not to mention that "young teenagers" doesn't distinguish between 16 and over (age of consent) vs. 13-15 year-olds, of which there is only one not very credible accusation.

Sebastian said...

"it also creates potential for influencing the bad behavior of many more men. And that's what Cleves and Syrett are eager to do." Ah, it "creates potential," does it.

Mike Sylwester said...

Correcting my comment at 8:27 AM

Evil hoaxster Beverly Young Nelson says that Roy Moore molested her when she was 14 years old.

She says she was 16 years old.

Ann Althouse said...

"@Althouse - Imagine memorizing those lines. How do they do it ?"

I know. I was thinking about that. It's just talk talk talk, and there's no way on that stage for there to be any kind of prompter.

Ann Althouse said...

"The age of consent is 16 and was at the time. The only accusation from a woman alleging younger age is the one with three bankruptcies, three divorces and other factors including the dates of the alleged event, which was when she was 16."

Under the theory pressed by the authors of this op-ed, the dating of much younger — naive and low-power — women is bad character and we should be launching into criticism of men who behave like this.

That would, of course, include Trump for marrying Melania and many other men including men who are admired and celebrated for what is regarded as sexual success.

Ann Althouse said...

"The word "alleged" needs to be inserted here."

Is there some place I needed to put it where I didn't? Moore admits he dated of-age teenagers. It was his regular practice, by his own admission.

MikeR said...

Seems like an obvious distinction. Normal heterosexual men are attracted to teenage - post-pubescent - girls. They need to deal with the issue of age of consent and hopefully do so in a responsible way.
People who are attracted to pre-pubescent girls are a whole different category.

wwww said...



Leigh Corfman was on Today this morning talking about what happened when she was 14.

Bottom line: There are evil adults in the world who will sexually exploit children, tweens and young teenagers. I am not an expert in these crimes, and cannot say if there are different manifestations of sexual deviance.

I can say that I was told by a friend in high school that her father had molested her. The way she told me was roundabout and confusing. She also told her boyfriend, who was a friend of mine. He discussed it with me. I told my parents. My friend was one of five girls. She had several younger sisters. We were not close with the family, but we had socialized with them at local square dances. My parents notified the police and the social worker at the elementary school. We couldn't do anything. It wasn't until about 10 years later that the man was finally brought up on charges. He went to jail, but not before he molested the younger girls. Our inability to protect those girls was one of the most frustrating things I have experienced. I wonder -- what else could we have done that was within the law?

He molested them as little girls and as teenagers. I am unsure of this line that the authors are drawing in terms of ages. There are evil people who will take advantage of the vulnerable. I am unsure of what causes this type of person to fall into this sort of evil behaviour. This type of person exploits children and teenagers because he can.

This particular man used his role as father, his religion and his church to hide behind. He used his position as Christian patriarch to exploit authority. He took sites that should have been places of safety -- the family, the church, and transformed them into places of danger and exploitation. His behaviour was evil in many different ways.

This type of behaviour is a violation of the vulnerable child or teenager. It corrupts and undermines societal institutions such as religions and families. Other adults and children see the inability of institutions to protect those who are vulnerable. The victims have to wrestle with their relationship to families and to their religion as being hypocritical and unable to protect them. And because this type of man uses these institutions as shields, it may cause people to doubt the institutions themselves. After all, the family and church was unable to protect the victim. The schools and police were unable to protect the victim.

This behaviour corrupts society.

James K said...

Moore admits he dated of-age teenagers

That would include 18 and 19 year-olds. Are those "young teenagers"? Perhaps you meant "young women who were still teenagers," but the phrase "young teenagers" would include those below the age of consent.

Mike Sylwester said...

If Moore involved himself with girls who were at least the age of consent, then that is not the business of the US Senate. Rather, it is the business of the Alabama electorate.

What is the business of the US Senate is the current perpetration of a hoax to affect an election to fill a seat in the US Senate. That is a problem for the US Senate to investigate.

There are two obvious hoaxsters -- Beverly Young Nelson and Gloria Allred -- but they might be receiving money from third parties.

KittyM said...

@Ann Althouse "Under the theory pressed by the authors of this op-ed, the dating of much younger — naive and low-power — women is bad character and we should be launching into criticism of men who behave like this...That would, of course, include Trump ... and many other men including men who are admired and celebrated for what is regarded as sexual success."

Yes. That is one of the aspects of what is so interesting: that these cases, allegations and stories over the past few years (O'Reilly, Cosby, Weinstein, Moore and yes, Trump) are creating a shift in our understanding of how certain power dynamics work in our society. Many of us are changing the way we think about how powerful men deal with women. I spoke to a friend over the weekend: there has been some news recently about sexual harassment and abuse by teachers of pupils at the school she went to (so these events took place in the seventies and eighties). She said, "We didn't call it sexual abuse. We just tried not to be alone with certain teachers."

In other words, many women didn't even have the language to describe what was happening to them.

The analogy I think is with attitudes towards domestic violence, which over the decades shifted from "it's a personal matter within the family" to recognising that this is a crime and police need to intervene. That reflected a complete change in the way we though about this incidents and also a change in language.

Martha said...

Will Jerry Seinfeld be swept up in this emergent moral righteousness?
He dated 17 year old high school student Shoshanna Lonstein when he was 38 years old. Met her in Central Park —like a Mall but outdoors.

Mike Sylwester said...

wwww at 9:02 AM

I was told by a friend in high school that her father had molested her.

Was the father Roy Moore?

What did Leigh Corfman say on the Today show about Roy Moore?

Mike Sylwester said...

How many reporters have CNN, The New York Times and The Washington Post assigned to investigate past sexual activities of Senator Al Franken?

Darrell said...

Fernandistien--
Just marry Betty Boop already.

Kate said...

"Pedophile priests" weren't technically pedophiles either, mostly. I can never remember the other word, because it isn't used and doesn't carry the shorthand stigma. And part of society loves its Lolita myth. Sex with an adult-bodied mental child is still a defensible act for some.

Darrell said...

Moore wife was 18 when they married---as was his mother when she wed. It's a tried-and-true method for those wishing a big family without medical issues.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Sex with an adult-bodied mental child is still a defensible act for some.

So Melania isn't doing anything wrong...

Darrell said...

Sorry, Laslo, I seemed to have missed your similar comment.

Unknown said...

Why are people still confusing Leigh Corfman who was 14, with Beverly Nelson, who is the one with the yearbook and was 16. If you’re going to clam they all are hoaxers and liars, get their ages and names right at the very least. Yes I know, there are so many it’s easy to get them confused.

chickelit said...

Of course we need to put a stop to all this spring/fall pairing because it puts older women at such a disadvantage. Just look who is screaming the loudest.

Drago said...

Unknown: " If you’re going to clam they all are hoaxers and liars, get their ages and names right at the very least."

The members of the Party of Clinton would like everyone to be quite accurate about sexual abuse victims information.

That way, when they and all their minions spend 25 years laughing at Clintons victims and calling them sluts and liars and the result of dragging $100 bills through trailer parks you will know that the advice comes from "The Experts".

wwww said...




The accusations of Roy Moore go down to 14 years old. That was below the age of consent in Alabama. 14 years old cannot legally drive, they cannot legally vote, and they cannot legally have sex with adults.


Here is Leigh Corfman talking about it:
https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/932598252184186881

It is up to you, if you believe her or not. I believe her.

Despite my disgust at Moore, the decision is up to the voters of Alabama. I do not think voters should elect representatives that are criminals and scumbags. However, if the voters do make that decision, I do not think the Senate should over will the People. It is a horrible precedent. Furthermore, I do not think the Senate will expel Moore. The pragmatic politics for R. Senators don't line up behind it.

That said -- I don't know WTF is going on with people in Alabama that they nominated this scumbag. EBSCO host is in Birmingham, the car industry -- there are thousands of decent, smart, upstanding people who live in the state. Why the primary voters choose him is beyond my comprehension. The local defence of Moore means it's impossible to get momentum for a write-in-candidate.

Murkowski won as a write-in in Alaska, and there would be a good chance of one winning in Alabama. Only 15% of the white vote went to HRC. But all the political energy is devoted to defending Moore, and those people are belittling the accusors and ignoring & excusing his behaviour. Bad for Alabama, bad for children, bad for society. Moore's probably going to win, he'll end up in the Senate, and his behaviour will continue to be excused.

It's corrupting. Next thing you know, these defenders are going advocating sex and marriage between adults and 14 year olds.

Owen said...

(1) if you move the cursor called "Pedophilia" from 14 to 18, funny thing, you get a different result.
(2) if you move the cursor called "age of consent" from 18 to 14, funny thing, you get a different result.
(3) if you raise the political temperature from "local fight for dogcatcher" to "key US Senate race," funny thing, you get a different result.

The great attraction (and thus the curse) of the Twitterverse is, to relinquish your own sense of proportion and decency.

Choose wisely.

Balfegor said...

If he actually went after a 14 year-old or two (like Kevin Spacey), then even if it's on the borderline (the border being 13 years), I don't have a problem calling that pedophilia. If it's just older teenagers, I think it's a bit creepy in light of modern mores, but not pedophilia.

Balfegor said...

Re: Kate:

"Pedophile priests" weren't technically pedophiles either, mostly. I can never remember the other word, because it isn't used and doesn't carry the shorthand stigma.

Ephebophilia.

Unknown said...

“Putting him in the category of men who pursue sex by exploiting a power differential integrates him with men we have not exiled from decent society, but it also creates potential for influencing the bad behavior of many more men.”

Older men who misuse their power over teenage girls to have sex with them, or molest teenage girls as a pattern, perhaps need a category named after them to more easily refer to them. Creepy weirdo just doesn’t cut it.

Mac McConnell said...

"Moore wife was 18 when they married---as was his mother when she wed. It's a tried-and-true method for those wishing a big family without medical issues."

Kayla Moore was a 24 year old divorcee with a daughter when 38 year old Roy Moore married her.

Unknown said...

A ephebophiliac. Ah that’s it.

Michael K said...

Leigh Corfman was on Today this morning talking about what happened when she was 14.

Of course she was !

This is a full court press by the DNC, and you incidentally, to invalidate an election in Alabama.

It doesn't matter that there is no evidence of any of these charges. The one attempt at "evidence" proved to be a forgery from which contemptible creature Gloria Allred is backing away.

I just wonder about the role of Mitch McConnell in all this. He spent not a nanosecond defending the GOP voters who chose Moore.

Self awareness is not a characteristic of the left.

Gahrie said...

As long as powerful men are attractive to women, powerful men will continue to exploit those women. By the same token as long as beautiful, young women are attractive to men, beautiful young women will continue to exploit men.

It's basic human nature.

Michael K said...

"Creepy weirdo just doesn’t cut it. "

Anybody remember "Primary Colors" and the stories about Clinton ?

wwww said...



Mike S.,

You know, it's up to you. Do you want to listen to her accusation? Do you want to ignore it? It's also up to you how you process that information.

I can give you the link, and you can watch the clip if you want. Or not. Really, it's up to you. I have no interest in trying to convince you to look at it. That goes for everyone about the Moore issue. Look or don't look. Excuse his behaviour or don't. I can't force you to believe it or even look at it. It's up to you.

Lord knows I tried in a much more fraught situation years ago. Couldn't force people to believe it or even look at it. And so it goes.

narciso said...

And there was the third accuser, Gleason who was a,big Biden supporter and resister. So try again.

Hagar said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
roesch/voltaire said...

There are lots of "jailbait" songs about male fondness for young girls that include the line"but she is old enough for me" which seems to be the male's perspective for many rockers including Ted Nugent who had a real-life underage affair. The are not considered pedophile but rightly so I think are seen as another abuse of men's power and status over the blank page of an unformed woman to reference Strindberg. Concerning Moore he is a creepy/insecure man and of course a hypocrite.

Hagar said...

Is there some place I needed to put it where I didn't? Moore admits he dated of-age teenagers. It was his regular practice, by his own admission.

The problem is with your headline, which indicates that some people are calling Roy Moore a pedophile, and that is what sticks in people's minds, never mind what the finer points discussed below in the article may be.

wwww said...

This is a full court press by the DNC, and you incidentally, to invalidate an election in Alabama.


Dude, you aren't reading my posts. I have repeatedly stated that the Senate should not expel him. I do not think the Senate should over will the People. If the people want to elect a scumbag child molester, that's their business.

rhhardin said...

The power in powerful men doesn't mean anything.

It's a marker in an account, not a thing.

wwww said...



Why do people think 14 years old is or was the Age of Consent in Alabama? These laws changed in the 19th century. 14 is under the age of consent.

And why are you defending 14 years old as OK? If you think this is OK, I think you are a monster.

Darrell said...

Moore wife was 18 when they married

Just goes to show you that you can't believe everything you read on the internet.

“It’s unclear what age Kayla Moore was when he first saw her at the dance recital, but they began dating when she was 23, a year before they married, according to the memoir,” reported CNN, which further quoted Roy Moore as writing of Kayla, “Anxious to meet her, I began with the line, ‘Haven’t we met somewhere before?’ ‘I don’t think so,’ she replied,” he said, recalling the moment they met at a church Christmas party.” (Kayla Moore attended high school with one of Moore’s accusers, Beverly Young Nelson.)

Gahrie said...

Under the theory pressed by the authors of this op-ed, the dating of much younger — naive and low-power — women is bad character and we should be launching into criticism of men who behave like this.

When do we discuss Brigitte Macron? Or the almost daily reveal of yet another female teacher having sex with one of their students?

Let me suggest that the problem isn't confined to older men having sex with teenagers.

Mac McConnell said...

Darrell
Of course he'd seen her before, she competed in beauty pageants, including Miss Alabama US Teen, Miss Alabama USA and Miss Alabama World. That would have been a big deal in small town Alabama.

Gahrie said...

And why are you defending 14 years old as OK? If you think this is OK, I think you are a monster.

I wonder what percentage of girls raised in Islam are married by the age of 14?

tim maguire said...

wwww, I don't think anyone's defending grown men having sex with 14 year olds. What they are doing is casting doubt on whether Moore sexually assaulted a 14 year old.

As I recall, she claims the assault happened in Moore's house. Moore says he never met her. So ask her what the inside of his house looked like. One or two specific details is all that's needed to settle the question. Has she? Has anyone asked?

Michael K said...

" If the people want to elect a scumbag child molester, that's their business. "

And you're neutral. HAHAHAHA

The stories have NO evidence. They accusers will vanish like they have in other Gloria Allred productions. Right after the election.

I have said before that, if this had surfaced during the expensive and hard fought primary, I would tend to believe them.

This is a last minute hit job by the DNC and WaPoo.

Balfegor said...

Re: Gahrie:

When do we discuss Brigitte Macron?

Didn't we already discuss how she's a creepy sexual predator back when her husband became President of France?

Re: wwww:

And why are you defending 14 years old as OK? If you think this is OK, I think you are a monster.

My great-grandparents were married at the ages of 13 and 11. Are you calling my ancestors monsters? You need a lesson in cultural sensitivity!! (haha)

Darrell said...

Leigh Corfman said she had a phone in her room when she took Moore's call inviting her out for a date. Her mother says that she wasn't allowed a phone in her room. There was just one in the house, in the hallway by the kitchen. She didn't get a second phone until over ten years later.

Bad Lieutenant said...

And why are you defending 14 years old as OK? If you think this is OK, I think you are a monster.


Romeo and Juliet were 15 and 13. The FEDERAL age of consent is TWELVE.

Why is 14 bad? Because young ladies are stupid? Newsflash, most women are stupid regardless of age, but hopefully less wicked with youth. What, a 14yo boy should get her instead? She should be preserved like a herring until 18 so a 18yo boy can knock her off at the prom?

"American women are broken" is a phrase I began hearing in college. Something is very wrong and it has nothing to do with May-December romance.

Darcy said...

Gah. I lost a long post.

I think Moore is being smeared. I don't care that he dated of-age young women. (Hellooooo, Elvis Presley - everyone loved that love story) He would not be (by far) my first choice for Alabama Senator, but I do hope he overcomes this smear.

What is God up to? I have no idea, but know He's in charge. It does seem that politics has gotten the ugliest I've ever seen. Maybe that's what we need to restore some civility. The pendulum swings.

Unknown said...

Interesting how some men here seem to long for the days of childbrides. Strindberg liked them young because he thought he would have a blank slate in which to imprint himself onto. It displays an immature man with low self esteem. Can’t handle women his age, too much of a threat to his masculinity perhaps.

Mike Sylwester said...

wwww at

Here is Leigh Corfman talking about it:
https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/932598252184186881


Thanks for the link, which is more useful than your long story about your high-school friend.

I listened to all of your video.

Here is a link to a video for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlqyvPn_1hI

Michael K said...

The lefties are all over this like flies on sh*t. This is such an obvious hit job. Would I support this guy in my own state ? No.

Alabama, in spite of the Redstone Arsenal where the space program began, is seen by the left as a swamp of toothless retards who marry at the age of 12.

They assume any of this stuff is true because they see the residents of Alabama as inferiors.

This is just more bias by the blue team which thinks it is the repository of all wisdom

Unknown said...

“I don't care that he dated of-age young women.“

Leigh Corfman was 14. The age of consent in Alabama in 1979 was 16.

Michael K said...

"Interesting how some men here seem to long for the days of childbrides. "

Evidence from the swamp/

Darcy said...

He didn't date Leigh Corfman, I am fairly sure of that. Nor did he molest her. The two outliers are so far from the recollections of his behavior by the various women he actually did date that I am calling BS.

Mac McConnell said...

I'm skeptical about a 14 year old's first time sneaking out of the house to meet up with a guy picks a 30 something guy. Does a 30 year old guy call a 14 year old for a hook up without any night without some encouragement? Does a 14 year old girl go the the 30 year old guy's home get kissed and becomes terrified, asked to be taken home. Does that terrified girl go to the guys home a second time for some making out in their underwear, only to be terrified again?

Who with any sexual experience in high school or college would buy this bullshit. Hell now day 14 year old girls are participating in rainbow parties after school in rec-rooms. Whose to blame Roy Moore or Bill Clinton?

Mike Sylwester said...

wwww, I don't think anyone's defending grown men having sex with 14 year olds. What they are doing is casting doubt on whether Moore sexually assaulted a 14 year old.

That is a correct description of the discussion.

James Garrett said...

Alabamians may vote for the Republican candidate, who pursued teen-age girls while in his 30's...or they may vote for the Democrat, who believes it it perfectly acceptable to vacuum the brains out of partially birthed infant children... Damn..this is a close call...flirts with 16 yr olds at the mall versus kills newborn babies....whatever will Alabama do?

Mike Sylwester said...

Unknown at 10:12 AM

Leigh Corfman was 14. The age of consent in Alabama in 1979 was 16.

The issue is whether a sexual incident between her and Moore really happened.

Michael K said...

"The issue is whether a sexual incident between her and Moore really happened."

The lefties ignore the telephone in her room failure and assume it has to be true.

This is a brain disorder on the left in which evidence is ignored and myth preferred.

Anonymous said...

German, Italy and about a dozen other countries have 14 as the age of consent.
In France it is 15.

Hagar said...

Actually, I did not have the professor's post in mind, but a general comment (including the commenters hereon).
Roy Moore has admitted dating girls under 18 years of age, but not that any improprieties occurred.

The "age of consent" does not have anything to do with this unless you allege that sexual intercourse took place.

But 40 years ago, "date" might still just mean a movie (E. Presley) and a hamburger at the local soda fountain.

Anonymous said...

The other countries I refer to above are all 'European countries. I didn't research the ROW.

BTW, Turkey's AoC is 18

traditionalguy said...

Note: the use of a term that denotes a fetish sexual attraction to 10
And under has been used to mask the gay cleric infestation of the Catholic Church who aim to seduce the older than 14 young men into gay sex.

Martha said...

Leigh Corfman states in the Today interview that as a 14 year old who had never dated, she snuck out of her house to “meet” a 32 year old man to go to his house—twice. I cannot believe she was so naive she did not know that was a “date” —she admits to being a fan of Harlequin romances. Maybe she was that stupid.

If Roy Moore knew her age, he had criminal intent.

R.J. Chatt said...

Is Moore a pedophile now? I doubt it. No one has presented any evidence of that or evidence that he has continued to pursue young women. The problem with calling him a pedophile for "dramatic effect" is that pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder. If he doesn't have that disorder then your claims are false and unfair. I get the good intention behind the exaggeration, to stigmatize men who prey on young women, but I don't agree with tactic. I also don't believe that screaming and getting emotional is the way to prove the truth. I don't want a system of justice based on who is the best actor.

I looked at that link of Leigh Corfman (the girl he brought to his home when she was 14) and I believed her. I also saw her photo and she didn't 14, she looked sexually mature. She also said that Moore did not force her, rape her, or attempt to rape her. Yes, what he did was very creepy but in the scheme of creepy things I have personally experienced in my own life, I'd say that Moore is not a threat to public safety. I've known people who were college professors, museum directors, ministers who tried to seduce me when I was in my late teens and early twenties. If one of them were running for Senate I wouldn't say anything about it now, forty years later. Whoever they are today is not the same as they were forty years ago. That's the human condition. I'd assume that Roy Moore grew up and dealt with his insecurities. It's up to the voters in Alabama to decide if he's OK now. At least the skeletons are out of his closet.

I think the emphasis should be on instilling young women with self esteem, a sense of personal agency, and frank conversation about how to deal with men. Calling Roy Moore a pedophile accomplishes zero.

Kind of a long winded comment, sorry.

Mac McConnell said...

Nice 14 year old girls in the 1970s snuck out of the house to meet other girls to tepee boy's homes with toilet paper, not hook up with 30 something men. Nice girls might have met up to go swimming in the local pool after closing. There are a lot of reasons for me being skeptical that this was not this 14 year old's first rodeo.

Remember Monica, while not 14 had a long history of fucking her teachers.

Ann Althouse said...

"Normal heterosexual men are attracted to teenage - post-pubescent - girls. They need to deal with the issue of age of consent and hopefully do so in a responsible way."

The more "normal" you are, the more responsible I would hold you for your moral failings.

The age of consent is simply the line drawn in the criminal law, which is a pretty low standard of behavior. When we're judging whether to trust you with something, e.g., political power, we will weigh many things that we know about you. Your not being a criminal isn't enough.

The opinion that we are seeing becoming dominant — an opinion I've had for a long time — is that we are less impressed by men who choose partners who are much weaker than they are, such as someone much younger (or less well educated or less capable of dealing with worldly matters for whatever reason). I count it in a man's favor if he is married to a woman around his age and equally well educated. That was something many people liked about Barack Obama. The factor cuts the other way with Trump, but it could be much worse.

A man who respects women and is likely to support women's rights and interests will probably be with a woman who is about his equal.

In the case of a gay man, I'd make the same point about equality.

Darcy said...

Great post, R.J. Chatt. I would be run out of town on a rail by the standards of today should every detail of my life be made public. I have regrets. I have made mistakes. I have paid rather dearly for them and I have grown and learned.

Also: I've been forgiven, which is everything.

What bothers me most about all of this is the eleventh hour. This does not give Moore any kind of due process to refute these allegations or even the opportunity to explain. This is deliberate and inexcusable, IMO.

Just imagine being Roy Moore and having the non-criminal parts of this story be true. Just how do you refute the lies? How do you defend? It's nearly impossible and, I believe, deliberate as well.

By the way, I wasn't horrified by the Franken news. I thought his apology was well done. I think most people feel that way. Roy Moore doesn't have that option because the allegations are much worse and the distinction between what may have been legal and respectful dating of very young women and child molestation and assault is too dangerous to attempt to own up to during a political campaign with very powerful enemies. This is well known and deliberate.

Ken B said...

Michael K wrote
"It doesn't matter that there is no evidence of any of these charges. The one attempt at "evidence" proved to be a forgery from which contemptible creature Gloria Allred is backing away."

I have not heard anything. Is there a link?

Ken B said...

"Under the theory pressed by the authors of this op-ed, the dating of much younger — naive and low-power — women is bad character and we should be launching into criticism of men who behave like this. "

Althouse is having one of her bad days. Of course the issue is character. That is precisely why using terms like pedophile or child molester is despicable. Next you'll be defending F Lee Bailey yelling "Nigger, nigger, nigger."

Ken B said...

Micheal K
Never mind

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2017/11/16/allred-on-whether-yearbook-signature-is-forgery-were-not-addressing-and-analysis-should-be-done-in-professional-setting/

Won’t say flatly it’s not a forgery, when her client says she watched him sign it?? When it's supposedly the smoking gun? Won't freaking say?

Darcy said...

@Ken B:

Yep. I'm convinced it's a forgery. Rotten.

Unknown said...

“The age of consent is simply the line drawn in the criminal law, which is a pretty low standard of behavior. When we're judging whether to trust you with something, e.g., political power, we will weigh many things that we know about you. Your not being a criminal isn't enough.”

Exactly.

Holding our elected officials and people in authority to a higher standard is still of great value in a civilized society. When we no longer value good character, we see a breakdown. Evangelicals and other people who consider themselves to be moral need to think about why they may have automatically disbelieved these young women and girls.

R.J. Chatt said...

I've seen Judge Moore's wife and she's no shrinking violet.

Ken B said...

"Evangelicals and other people who consider themselves to be moral need to think about why they may have automatically disbelieved these young women and girls."

But people don't disbelieve them (plural). Everyone acknowledges he asked out girls 16-19. So no-one "automatically disbelieved" them. But it's fair, prudent, and rational to be more skeptical of the claim of attempted rape, when it is made decades late, with no contemporaneous reports, no physical evidence, and under suspicious circumstances (the timing). Why do you "automatically disbelieve" him when he denies it happened?

Some people want to know the truth. You attack the only attitude that is conducive to doing so.

Unknown said...

Young women and girls at that time, obviously.

Ken B said...

Darcy
I'm not, but I am struck that Allred won't say flatly it's not a forgery. How can she say that if she believes her client? Her client claims to have witnessed Moore signing it. If the signature is a fraud then so is the case.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Under the theory pressed by the authors of this op-ed, the dating of much younger — naive and low-power — women is bad character and we should be launching into criticism of men who behave like this.

That would, of course, include Trump for marrying Melania and many other men including men who are admired and celebrated for what is regarded as sexual success.

11/20/17, 8:55 AM

Did the Playboy magazines your parents had on the coffee table when you were growing up contain pinups of women who were not very young? The recently departed Hugh Hefner was certainly "admired and celebrated for what is regarded as sexual success" by many men.

Our society can't keep our signals straight anymore.

wwww said...


wwww, I don't think anyone's defending grown men having sex with 14 year olds.

Then what are comments like these (see below)?

"Nice girls might have met up to go swimming in the local pool after closing. There are a lot of reasons for me being skeptical that this was not this 14 year old's first rodeo."


I hope these sorts of reactions are political tribalism gone over the top, and not the actual opinions of people about excusing or approving of sex between adult men and 14 year olds. I'm not ok with anyone excusing adult men in their 30s undressing a 14 year old. I'm also not ok with adult men carrying 14 year old boys into their bedrooms. It's repulsive to me that people would blame a 14 year old minor for the actions of someone almost twice their age.

To an extent, I can understand the political pragmatism of anticipation of an election and how one might be worried about that. That said -- if people would stop excusing Moore, local Alabamians could coalesce around a much more suitable candidate that could win with a write-in campaign. I hope people are speaking in out of political passion, and do not believe what they are promoting.

As it stands, Moore will likely win. The Senate will not expel him. Every time he says something crazy, reporters are going to ask every other R. Senator to go on the record. They will ask Senators what they think about Moore. How is this going to play in 2018, 2020, and beyond? This is not the moral argument, but the simple political pragmatic argument. Consequently, Republicans can support the moral choice and still align with political self-interest. Meanwhile the moral argument is that pubic approval of this behaviour is corrupting to society. It normalizes adults praying on teens. The approval of Moore undermines the moral authority of institutions -- political and religious.

I hope people don't believe what they are saying about adult sex with 14 year olds. I also do not believe the marriage of a 14, or 16 year old to a person twice her (or his) age morally correct or appropriate. I find the promotion of these types of these sorts of marriage practices repulsive.

Unknown said...

“But people don't disbelieve them (plural). Everyone acknowledges he asked out girls 16-19.”

Leigh Corfman was 14 in 1979. And it doesn’t reflect well on him that he used his age and position of power ( in the minds of a teen girl) to entice a girl into sex or even to date him as a 32 year old man. It does speak to his character. Why were teen girls so enticing to him as a man in his 30’s.

Strindberg again comes to mind.

Unknown said...

“Meanwhile the moral argument is that pubic approval of this behaviour is corrupting to society. It normalizes adults praying on teens. The approval of Moore undermines the moral authority of institutions -- political and religious.”

Most shocking is that Evangelicals have gone down this road.

Darcy said...

Who is saying that they think it is okay for adult men to have sex with 14 year olds?

Straw man.

R.J. Chatt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
R.J. Chatt said...

Kayla Moore, wife of Roy Moore, speaking on behalf of her husband.

Earnest Prole said...

I’m sure your commenters will defend Kevin Spacey against charges of pedophilia just as enthusiastically as they do Roy Moore, though perhaps not for the reasons Slate cites in How Calling Kevin Spacey a Pedophile Hurts the Gay Community

Bruce Hayden said...

“I speculate that maybe humans have some extremely ancient gene that optimizes human-female fertility likewise in 17-year periods.”

I suspect coincidence, and not causation. As I understand it, our delayed sexual maturity is a result of our large brain size, and female hips having to be wide enough to walk upright, while broad enough to give birth (which brings up the long term effect on our species of C-sections). Which means that our brains do far more development ex utero than other mammals experience. Full brain maturity is apparently typically some time in our mid twenties. In any case, sexual maturity was somewhere right before the teens, and traditionally marriage not long after that, in order to maximize potential offspring, esp with a lifespan of less than 40. Figure maybe 35. Some evidence that kids younger than maybe 7 were notably less likely to survive to procreate than older kids, which means, working backwards, that women should have by, maybe, 28, as many kids as they need to perpetuate their genes, with any later kids being gratis. Move life expectancy back to 30,and that means that 23 is the cutoff. Figure one kid every two years (partially enforced by lower fertility when nursing - something else probably driven by evolution), and you get maybe 5 kids if a female starts at 13, but only 3 kids if she starts at 17. That is problematic, given childhood death rates until very recently, for having enough kids to perpetuate her genes. After that, it wasn’t worth it, from the point of of perpetuating their own genes, for males to monogamously marry older females. Which is why I expect that peak sexual attraction ended up near 17 - a balancing of different evolutionary pressures. Maximum male sexual attraction can be later since it is more a lack of maternal care, than paternal care, those first years that drove down child survival rates. Keep in mind that all of these things, including peak sexual attraction, cost resources, and when they are expended is, inevitably, driven by evolution. And, once married, female sexual attraction is of much lesser importance than in attracting mates, which may be why later resources are traded in females for maximum attraction at maybe 17. Just a theory.

n.n said...

All that can be said is that Moore dated perilously close to the age of consent. The one time he is alleged to have crossed that boundary, it did not progress to sex or violence, but upon discovery a courtship cut short.

Bruce Hayden said...

This whole idea of categorizing those attracted to pre-pubescent kids and post-pubescent teens together as “pedophiles” is bothersome.The former is worrisome, spnsince it both endangers (and often harms) the children, and it provides no evelotutionary advantages. Indeed, it is an evolutionary dead end. But the post-pubescent? It is perfectly normal, though may be illegal. Verging maybe, on the distinction between malum in se versus malum prohibitum.

My partner has a friend several years older who has, in the past, traveled out of this country, to engage in congress with adolescent females. She tells him that he is a pervert. I disagree, but have learned not to debate this with her. My point is that as males age, their testosterone levels drop, and females lose their sexual attraction as a result. Unfortunately, the older you get, the younger the females are, thanks to the fact that, as pointed out above, maximum female sexual attraction is at maybe 17. So, a guy who could get sexually excited by a woman his own age at 45, may be looking at 25 year olds at 55, and only getting excited by late teenagers at 65 (depends, of course on his personal physiology, with some men needing ED drugs as early as, say, 40, while others don’t need such until their 60s). So, I don’t really condem Bill Clinton for flying off all the time to Pedophile Island with Jeffry Epstein. Looking at the pictures of the two of them with their escorts, they aren’t “pedophiles” as that term is traditionally defined. The girls were hot. They were just doing what Rich dirty old men do - trade their money for sex with sexually mature females who are sexually attractive enough to sexually excite them at their age. Malum probitum, not malum in se.

Mac McConnell said...

wwww
Not even his accusers have claimed Roy More had sex with them. Most say he only kissed them and was a perfect gentleman.

I'd bet Moore never dated much till he got out of West Point and Vietnam, he would have been 27, graduated from law school 30.

n.n said...

So, a religious/moral revival. Rejection of diversity (e.g. color, sex) that denies individual dignity. Rejection of abortion rites that deny lives deemed unworthy, inconvenient, or profitable. Rejection of the sexual revolution that degraded the institution of marriage, families, and children. Rejection of "friendship with benefits" (a.k.a. "casting couch" relationships), too. Rejection of political congruence ("=") that is selective, unprincipled, and opportunistic. Rejection of transgender conversion therapy targeting prepubescent and adolescent boys and girls. This is a public trial to judge the fitness and progress of social liberalism.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

I hope people don't believe what they are saying about adult sex with 14 year olds.

In Moore's defense, she looked fifteen, maybe even 15 1/2.

Unknown said...

“Not even his accusers have claimed Roy More had sex with them. Most say he only kissed them and was a perfect gentleman.”

He undressed her (the 14 hear old) down to her underwear and put her hand on his tightly whities over his erection. The perfect gentleman.

Kevin said...

Let's just get to the point here. The goal of the media is to ensure that any charges leveled against Moore works equally well against Trump in 2020.

Whatever Trump did cannot be construed as pedophilia, so using those words against Moore separates him in the minds of voters from Trump. Thus, those lines of communication must be shut down by the WAPO ASAP.

Once you see all of this as battlespace preparation for 2020 - including the discussion of how Bill Clinton should have been thrown out of office as an unfit President - it all comes into focus.

They already know they can't run against Trump as incompetent - he's going to pass major legislation. And they can't run against him on results, with the economy booming even before the tax cuts. They're going to have to go down the "unfit" route again. And since the Nazi thing didn't work out so well since half the country was implicated, they're going to go with some version of sexual predator to get people to stay home this time.

Unknown said...

“Whatever Trump did cannot be construed as pedophilia, so using those words against Moore separates him in the minds of voters from Trump.”

Oh really?

“In 1994, Trump went to a party with Jeffrey Epstein, a billionaire who was a notorious registered sex offender, and raped a 13-year-old girl that night in what was a "savage sexual attack," according to a lawsuit filed in June 2016 by "Jane Doe." The account was corroborated by a witness in the suit, who claimed to have watched as the child performed various sexual acts on Trump and Epstein even after the two were advised she was a minor.

"Immediately following this rape Defendant Trump threatened me that, were I ever to reveal any of the details of Defendant Trump’s sexual and physical abuse of me, my family and I would be physically harmed if not killed," Jane Doe wrote in the lawsuit, filed in New York.

The lawsuit was dropped in November 2016, just four days before the election, with Jane Doe's attorneys citing "numerous threats" against her.“

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-rape-sexual-assault-minor-wife-business-victims-roy-moore-713531

Mac McConnell said...

"I’m sure your commenters will defend Kevin Spacey against charges of pedophilia just as enthusiastically as they do Roy Moore"

No it called Realpolitik. Kevin Spacey has absolutely no outcome of the balance of power in the Senate, the judiciary or President Trump's agenda. All that considered why would the State of Alabama that Trump carried by 64+ % of the vote elect a pro-abortion senator?

Kevin Spacey on the other hand, meh.

Mike Sylwester said...

In 1994, Trump went to a party with Jeffrey Epstein, a billionaire who was a notorious registered sex offender, and raped a 13-year-old girl that night in what was a "savage sexual attack ...

Was that the gang rape where Alan Dershowitz was one of the rapists?

Mac McConnell said...

"The lawsuit was dropped in November 2016, just four days before the election, with Jane Doe's attorneys citing "numerous threats" against her."

How convenient, 1994 huh, dropped four days before the election huh? Sounds like she had some pretty chicken shit lawyers. "Numerous threats" is why criminals are never ever get prison time, WTF!

Mac McConnell said...

Wonder if they were DNC or Fusion GPS lawyers. Oh wait they are the same.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Kevin said...
Let's just get to the point here. The goal of the media is to ensure that any charges leveled against Moore works equally well against Trump in 2020.

However, they already threw all the slime they could at him in 2016 and he still got elected. I think by 2020, people will really be tuning this stuff out, because "sexual assault" now means anything from Clinton raping Juanita Broaddrick and Louis CK jacking it in front of women to Moore flirting with teens in malls. The Dems have overplayed the race card and they're going to overplay the sexual assault/harassment card as well; thus rendering both charges meaningless, which will hurt those who have a legitimate claim.

Howard said...

Roy Moore, charter member of NAMGLA... not that there's anything wrong wid dat.

Kevin said...

“In 1994, Trump went to a party with Jeffrey Epstein, a billionaire...

Isn't Bill Clinton more involved with Epstein than Trump is reported to be?

If they're going to pin the pedophile label on Trump, they have to do so on Bill Clinton first. There is no way around it. Now they may try to do so, but it would literally shake the foundation of the Democratic Party to bring up charges that Bill Clinton was a known pedophile all during the campaign last year and yet the media buried the story to help Hillary.

When that happens, we can start taking about accusations about Trump and what evidence they may have. Because they'll be using it against Bill first. And the media will not be able to stand by and say they knew nothing. If the story is true, they will have been complicit in the cover-up.

And as a reference, Team Clinton is still rallying around Bill and lashing out at Kristin Gillibrand today.

Kevin said...

I think by 2020, people will really be tuning this stuff out, because "sexual assault" now means anything from Clinton raping Juanita Broaddrick and Louis CK jacking it in front of women to Moore flirting with teens in malls.

I agree. Sexual assault fatigue is already setting into the American public. That's a very real threat to this whole line of attack.

Ken B said...

"I hope people don't believe what they are saying about adult sex with 14 year olds. I also do not believe the marriage of a 14, or 16 year old to a person twice her (or his) age morally correct or appropriate. I find the promotion of these types of these sorts of marriage practices repulsive. "

Islamaphobia!

wwww said...


However, they already threw all the slime they could at him in 2016 and he still got elected.

We should finish the sentence...he still got elected when his opponent was Hillary Clinton. She was a uniquely weak candidate, particularly in the area of enabling sexual corruption. I can't predict what's going to happen, but it feeds into the overall narrative of corrupt politicians.

The zeitgeist feels erratic. Don't know what's going to happen.

Mac McConnell said...

I can think of only one image of a bare chested Donald Trump, he was very young. By all accounts Trump wears a shirt even at the beech or pool, he's modest in that respect. But, we are to believe he reviled his Lilly white ass and dick to spectators as he debauched a 13 year old on Pedophile Island. Of course it could be possible, but the lawyers dropped the case because the 13 year old turned out to be one of Obama's refugee "children" who in actuality was 30.

exiledonmainstreet said...

“In 1994, Trump went to a party with Jeffrey Epstein, a billionaire who was a notorious registered sex offender"

Charges were first brought against Epstein in 2005. He was convicted in 2008. So in 1994, he was not "a notorious registered sex offender."

A hell of a lot of people went to parties with Epstein. Hell, Harvard accepted a $25 million donation from him. He was lavished with honors by the Manhattan elite, as this gushing Vanity Fair profile of him makes clear:

"Also on the list of admirers are former senator George Mitchell and a gaggle of distinguished scientists, most of whom Epstein has helped fund in recent years. They include Nobel Prize winners Gerald Edelman and Murray Gell-Mann, and mathematical biologist Martin Nowak. When these men describe Epstein, they talk about “energy” and “curiosity,” as well as a love for theoretical physics that they don’t ordinarily find in laymen. Gell-Mann rather sweetly mentions that “there are always pretty ladies around” when he goes to dinner chez Epstein, and he’s under the impression that Epstein’s clients include the Queen of England. Both Nowak and Dershowitz were thrilled to find themselves shaking the hand of a man named “Andrew” in Epstein’s house. “Andrew” turned out to be Prince Andrew, who subsequently arranged to sit in the back of Dershowitz’s law class.

"Some of the businessmen who dine with him at his home—they include newspaper publisher Mort Zuckerman, banker Louis Ranieri, Revlon chairman Ronald Perelman, real-estate tycoon Leon Black, former Microsoft executive Nathan Myhrvold, Tom Pritzker (of Hyatt Hotels), and real-estate personality Donald Trump—sometimes seem not all that clear as to what he actually does to earn his millions."

"Epstein’s appointment to the board of New York’s Rockefeller University in 2000 brought him into greater social prominence. Boasting such social names as Nancy Kissinger, Brooke Astor, and Robert Bass, the board also includes such pre-eminent scientists as Nobel laureate Joseph Goldstein. “Epstein was thrilled to be elected,” says someone who knows him."

"Thanks to Epstein’s introductions, says Martin Nowak, the biologist finds himself moving from Princeton to Harvard, where he is assuming the joint position of professor of mathematics and professor of biology. Epstein has pledged at least $25 million to Harvard to create the Epstein Program for Mathematical Biology and Evolutionary Dynamics, and Epstein will have an office at the university"

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/03/jeffrey-epstein-200303?currentPage=1

The article mentions that Epstein likes "very young women" but makes it sounds like that meant an entourage of Victoria's Secret models, not underaged sex slaves.


Epstein was the Manhattan version of Weinstein - the tycoon who covered his perverted ass by donating tons of money to various causes (in Epstein's case, science; in HW's case, liberal politics.) It worked until it didn't.

Inga and other liberals now want us to believe that Epstein was Trump's special friend and that Trump was aware of Epstein's proclivities. If he was, so was the entire Manhattan liberal elite.

Mac McConnell said...

"I agree. Sexual assault fatigue is already setting into the American public. That's a very real threat to this whole line of attack."

Just like every college girl getting raped or the daycare fake scandals from decades ago. Every attempted seduction isn't harassment or rape. I mean not every man is as smooth or an accomplished romantic as me. ;-)

wwww said...

I'd bet Moore never dated much till he got out of West Point and Vietnam, he would have been 27, graduated from law school 30.


My uncle went to West Point. After West Point he met he wife. She was not a teenager. I don't understand this. Maybe this guy was socially backwards, but as a West Point grad he should have been able to find eligible women to date. Why didn't he to go a college campus or a church social? He didn't need to call some girl out of her High School trigonometry class.

Look, if Alabama wants to elect this weirdo, the Senate should let it be. But he's bent.

Unknown said...

“The woman making the claims is referred to as "Jane Doe" in the most recent court complaints filed in New York, but as "Katie Johnson" in a similar suit filed in California earlier this year.

"I loudly pleaded with Defendant Trump to stop, but he did not," Jane Doe wrote in a formal declaration accompanying her recent suits. "Defendant Trump responded to my pleas by violently striking me in the face with his open hand and screaming that he would do whatever he wanted. ... Immediately following this rape, Defendant Trump threatened me that, were I ever to reveal any of the details of Defendant Trump's sexual and physical abuse of me, my family and I would be physically harmed if not killed."

Doe names Trump and Epstein as defendants in the suits and says they knew she was well under 17 — the age of consent. "I understood that both Mr. Trump and Mr. Epstein knew that I was 13 years old," she wrote.

Trump has publicly acknowledged that he knew Epstein and was aware of the investor's interest in "younger" women.

"I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy,'' Trump told New York Magazine back in 2002. "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life."

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-rape-accuser-lawsuits-230647

Mac McConnell said...

Unkown
When these women win their lawsuits let us know. Till then we are busy draining the swamp.

Unknown said...

“NEW YORK—A woman who claims in a lawsuit that she was lured into a sex-trafficking ring run by billionaire Jeffrey Epstein contends that the depravity began at a Florida resort now known as the winter White House: Mar-a-Lago.

Virginia Giuffre’s civil suit, scheduled to go to trial here later this month, threatens to expose new details of a long-running saga tying together President Donald Trump, former President Bill Clinton, Labor Secretary Alexander Acosta, and other prominent figures, including Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz.

Epstein, a well-connected Manhattan money manager and philanthropist, was once a regular at Mar-a-Lago and an active supporter of the Clinton Foundation—repeatedly lending his 727 jet to Clinton for trips overseas. Dershowitz defended Epstein amid an investigation into his involvement with underage girls more than a decade ago, and it was Acosta—then the U.S. attorney overseeing south Florida—who allowed Epstein’s case to be resolved in state court in 2008.

Epstein, 64, was a regular for several years at Mar-a-Lago. Testimony in a prior court case indicated that Trump flew at least once on one of the planes Epstein owned and Trump’s phone numbers were in Epstein’s personal phone directory.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/04/jeffrey-epstein-trump-lawsuit-sex-trafficking-237983

Patrick Henry was right! said...

Why no discussion of the fact that Roy Moore has DENIED these accusations, the Yearbook claim has been debunked and there is NO photographs or other evidence to support these charges.

So, you have ONE woman who makes an unsubstantiated claim of an event that is alleged to have occurred 40 years ago. This is many things but it is not proof and it is not pedophilia.

I hope Roy Moore sues all of your sorry a$$e$.

Unknown said...

“Till then we are busy draining the swamp.”

Busy filling it you mean?

Unknown said...

“I hope Roy Moore sues all of your sorry a$$e$.”

Trump threatened to sue the 13 women who accused him of sexual misconduct and assault. He didn’t.

Drago said...

You know the evidence against Epstein and the dems can't be "good" thus its time to launch "Operation Transfer Guilt to Nearest Republican".

Did you know that Epstein actually kept phone numbers of hotels he used?!

Yes, its true!! So Very Very True!!

Actual phone numbers of places he would go. Restaurants even!!

LOL

Mac McConnell said...

"Maybe this guy was socially backwards, but as a West Point grad he should have been able to find eligible women to date."

He probably got introduced to some nice hippy girls from schools like Wellesley College, but they were all wearing circus pants.

http://glossynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/001b2.jpg

Drago said...

Unknown: "Busy filling it you mean?"

Nope.

Draining.

Of course, you're on the team that couldn't identify what the meaning of "is" is. So your confusion is excused.

Drago said...

And one can't help but notice that the voice-actuated automatons like Inga have also been directed to go after Alan Dershowitz.

After all, he dared to defy the Lefty Standard and Approved Talking Points, thus, he must now be destroyed as well.

If you recall, it was just recently that he was actually accused by Inga's pals of being an anti-semite!!

Hilarious.

Drago said...

The really good news is that most of the lefties have given up their less than 2 week faux posturing about sexual harassment and are fully back on the Franken bandwagon!

They couldn't even pretend for more than 2 weeks!

Drago said...

It's also fun watching the NYT go all Margaret Meade and venture south to speak with a "representative" batch of Alabama preachers!

LOL

Oh yeah, that should turn out well.

exiledonmainstreet said...


"Epstein, a well-connected Manhattan money manager and philanthropist, was once a regular at Mar-a-Lago and an active supporter of the Clinton Foundation—repeatedly lending his 727 jet to Clinton for trips overseas."

So - yet another perverted Democrat? And he gave to the Foundation you swore was a wonderful charity?

Hmmmm, I wonder if Hillary knew?

exiledonmainstreet said...

Drago said...
And one can't help but notice that the voice-actuated automatons like Inga have also been directed to go after Alan Dershowitz."

The problem is once they start digging under Epstein's rock, they'll uncover many, many more lefties there.

Trump noticed that Epstein liked young women? Well so did a Nobel Prize winner, dumbbell: " Gell-Mann rather sweetly mentions that “there are always pretty ladies around” when he goes to dinner chez Epstein."

As I said, Epstein was a fixture on the Manhattan social circuit prior to his downfall. It's just frigggin' AMAZING to Inga that 2 NYC billionaires knew each other socially!

Politico just ignores every other prominent person who knew Epstein - like Tom Pritzker, a huge Obama backer. That brain site ignores the fact that Harvard kept that $25 million from Epstein.


No, no, I don't think the liberals will want to push that line, even if our resident bonehead has jumped on it.


exiledonmainstreet said...

brain=brain-dead site.

Unknown said...

“That Trump’s friendship with Epstein has been given what largely amounts to a pass from the media may be due in part to Epstein’s more prominent ties to Bill Clinton and Britain’s Prince Andrew.

Epstein’s ties to Clinton and Prince Andrew have largely overshadowed his ties to Trump.

Similarly, a 2003 Vanity Fair profile of Epstein named Trump as one of the “businessmen who dine with him at his home,” and several other articles have pegged Trump and Epstein as friends.

And when FBI investigators looked through Epstein’s private address book, they found 14 different phone numbers for Trump, including numbers for his security guard and houseman. Epstein also had numbers for Trump’s daughter Ivanka and his ex-wife Ivana.

When put under oath, Epstein admitted that he had “socialized” with Trump. But Epstein chose to exercise his Fifth Amendment rights when asked: “Have you ever socialized with Donald Trump in the presence of females under the age of 18?” Epstein similarly pleaded the fifth when asked about his relationship to Bill Clinton.

Trump rode on Jeffrey Epstein’s private plane at least once, according to the deposition of Mark Epstein, Jeffrey’s brother. That number pales, however, to Bill’s 26 trips on the “Lolita Express.”

http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/09/the-friendship-between-trump-and-a-billionaire-pedophile-that-nobody-wants-to-talk-about/

exiledonmainstreet said...

So - Inga is all aflutter because Trump knew Epstein socially and yet, she desperately wanted Epstein's fellow sex criminal and recipient of Epstein largess, Bill Clinton, back in the WH as First Gentleman (don't laugh).

If Hillary had won, the Democrats would still be kissing Billy Jeff's ass instead of throwing him under the bus.

They don't care about sexual assault. All they care about is power.

Unknown said...

“They don't care about sexual assault. All they care about is power.”

"I'm going to cast my ballot on December the 12th, and I do believe the nominee of the party is the one I'll vote for," Ivey said. "I believe in the Republican Party, what we stand for, and most important, we need to have a Republican in the United States Senate to vote on things like the Supreme Court justices, other appointments the Senate has to confirm and make major decisions. So that's what I plan to do, vote for Republican nominee Roy Moore."

Admirable!

Mac McConnell said...

Of course Epstein plead the fifth when asked about under age girls regardless of who might have been present, Epstein was being investigated for stooping underage girls. Sort of like Louis Lerner taking the fifth, something that brilliant Ivy league lawyer Bill Clinton should have done instead of asking what "is" is.

Mac McConnell said...

Unknown said...
"“They don't care about sexual assault. All they care about is power.”

"I'm going to cast my ballot on December the 12th, and I do believe the nominee of the party is the one I'll vote for," Ivey said. "I believe in the Republican Party, what we stand for, and most important, we need to have a Republican in the United States Senate to vote on things like the Supreme Court justices, other appointments the Senate has to confirm and make major decisions. So that's what I plan to do, vote for Republican nominee Roy Moore."

Admirable!"

Called Realpolitik, you're just pissed because we are playing by your party's rules.

Drago said...

Unknown: "Admirable!"

It is always wise to assume that the entire left is lying all the time.

History has taught us that is always the appropriate starting point for any issue.

Mike Sylwester said...

And when FBI investigators looked through Epstein’s private address book, they found 14 different phone numbers for Trump, including numbers for his security guard and houseman. Epstein also had numbers for Trump’s daughter Ivanka and his ex-wife Ivana.

Was this one of the many FBI leaks done by "Crazy Comey the Leaker"?

I am pretty sure that Comey learned to leak FBI secrets from his mentor, Robert "The FBI White-Washer" Mueller.

Leakers gotta leak.

Unknown said...

“It is always wise to assume that the entire left is lying all the time.”

Does sarcasm always escape you? Why would I consider the Alabama Governor to have said an admirable thing? Either you’re truly a dummy or you just want to accuse a liberal of lying. You’re flailing.

Drago said...

You know what's "admirable"? Franken is refusing to step down!

Admirably!

Poor Inga. The lefties and their LLR allies really thought they could resurrect the War On Women stuff for 2018.

Even pathetic Lena is now called out as a "hipster racist", just like so many other dems who are so quick to toss that charge at republicans.

The revolution consumes its own....but not fast enough for my tastes.

Drago said...

Unknown: " Either you’re truly a dummy or you just want to accuse a liberal of lying"

Note to self: perhaps identify a book on basic logic that Inga could understand, assuming one has been written on a level sufficiently low enough to be consumed and internalized by her.

Mike Sylwester said...

When put under oath, Epstein admitted that he had “socialized” with Trump.

Maybe the pedophilia accusations against Roy Moore are preparations for pedophilia accusations against Donald Trump.

If so, the Robert "The FBI White-Washer" Mueller will begin leaking details to his favorite journalists very soon.

It will be interesting to see whether Mueller will try to indict Alan Dershowitz along with Trump on charges of raping children.

James K said...

If Moore stepped aside, or even just were to lose because of these unproven and unsupported accusations, the message would be that any male candidate for office can be derailed by a handful of women who can claim to have known him at any point in his life. No proof or evidence necessary.

Howard said...

I'm picturing Admiral Al Franken standing next to the ghost of Admiral L. Ron Hubbard wearing their Sea Org uniforms.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

"The lawsuit was dropped in November 2016, just four days before the election, with Jane Doe's attorneys citing "numerous threats" against her.“"

Inga is such a stupid cunt that she thinks this makes Trump look guilty, and not that it was a completely fabricated political hit job that was rightly ignored by everyone except for stupid cunts like Inga.

wild chicken said...

Do the anti-"pedophilia" crusaders realize that Lolita is still shown on cable TV??? How long will that outrage be permitted?

Drago said...

Howard: "I'm picturing Admiral Al Franken standing next to the ghost of Admiral L. Ron Hubbard wearing their Sea Org uniforms."

I'm still chuckling over that one.

Mac McConnell said...

Charlie Rose is now a predator. Seems he thought all the employees and job applicants who he fired or didn't hire share mutual feelings. He has always been a good interviewer, especially for liberals in a PBS way. You know a good interviewer when they can interview Thomas Friedman of the a New York Times and not pee your pants laughing.

Laslo Spatula said...

Althouse said:

"Is there some place I needed to put it where I didn't?"

If we would all ask ourselves that from time to time.

I am Laslo.

Gospace said...

Mike Sylwester said...
Women are most sexually attractive at the age of 17.


To each their own. When I was a teen, I liked women about 27 or so. Now that I'm 62, I find women of about 27 or so to be the most attractive. When I was 23 I married a 21 year old. We're still married. She was about 27 or so for a while.

MikeR said...
Seems like an obvious distinction. Normal heterosexual men are attracted to teenage - post-pubescent - girls....
People who are attracted to pre-pubescent girls are a whole different category.


And further down in the comments:

Kate said...
"Pedophile priests" weren't technically pedophiles either, mostly. I can never remember the other word, because it isn't used and doesn't carry the shorthand stigma...


Yep. The priest problem (and coach problem at Penn State and elsewhere) is always referred to as a pedophilia problem to obfuscate the fact that it is in reality homosexual molestation. Pre-pubescent boys weren't the ones molested. The interest was always in post-pubescent young men.

Gospace said...

Mike Sylwester said...
When put under oath, Epstein admitted that he had “socialized” with Trump.

Maybe the pedophilia accusations against Roy Moore are preparations for pedophilia accusations against Donald Trump.


You need to widen your blog reading a little. I can direct you to sites where they're expecting Trump's justice department to go after major pedophile rings bigly. Since Weiner's laptop was investigated (may be coincidence, may not be) a number of pedophile rings have been rounded up with a few hundred arrested. With barely a mention in MSM. According to stories running around on those sites, Trump's one visit to Epstein's island resulted in an immediate turnaround after arrival. And stories go he was thoroughly disgusted at what he saw in his brief visit there. Now he's in a spot to do something about it.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Unknown said...
“Whatever Trump did cannot be construed as pedophilia, so using those words against Moore separates him in the minds of voters from Trump.”

Oh really?

“In 1994, Trump went to a party with Jeffrey Epstein,

here Inga I'll throw you a bone. Trump had knowledge at some remove of Epstein's activities. He once made a cryptic remark about Epstein liking girls who(!) were young, very young. We are now guilting and shaming people who had guilty knowledge of others' actions. Why not Trump? Or is he a hero in the small sense that the Family Guy writer was a hero for calling out Spacey.

Bad Lieutenant said...

I count it in a man's favor if he is married to a woman around his age and equally well educated.


I wonder if you know the passage of Talmud which reads:Descend a step in choosing a wife. I bet Richard knew it, he would have been properly educated.

Bad Lieutenant said...

https://books.google.com/books?id=QaiNhzqjlZAC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=descend+a+step+in+choosing+a+wife&source=bl&ots=5icadMC5_R&sig=OTcJew6cFSrXENFsIen0iErylmo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOg8Xs-c7XAhXENSYKHaQdBQsQ6AEIFDAE#v=onepage&q=descend%20a%20step%20in%20choosing%20a%20wife&f=false

Bad Lieutenant said...

Or, If thy wife is small, bend down and whisper to her.