November 7, 2017

Donna Brazile's new book reignites suspicions about the murder of Seth Rich.

Several times in her new book "Hacks: The Inside Story of the Break-ins and Breakdowns That Put Donald Trump in the White House," Donna Brazile writes about Seth Rich, who, as she puts it on page 37, "had been walking home from a local bar—and barely a block away from his apartment in Washington’s Bloomingdale / LeDroit Park neighborhood—when he was shot in the back in what police said was a robbery attempt."
The police were there within minutes, and Seth was still alive and talking when they arrived, but he died later that morning at the hospital.
That seems at first glance like an uncomplicated acceptance of the idea that Rich was killed in an attempted robbery, but my lawyerly eye notices the unclarity. What did Rich say to the police? He "was alive and talking," but did he say this was a robbery attempt or something else? The police later said it was a robbery attempt, but why did they say that? Did they say that because the now-dead man knew or believed that? He was shot in the back. Can you picture an attempted robbery that leaves the victim shot in the back? Doesn't a robber confront you to your face and use the gun to threaten you into giving him money?

And we see that Brazile doesn't seem to accept that it was simply a robbery. On pages pp. xviii-xix, describing her first phone call with Hillary Clinton after the election, Brazile writes:
I had taken all the hits. Hearing [Hillary's] voice was the first moment I understood how tired I was of taking it. What about the Russians? They had tried to destroy us. Was she going to help? I wanted to file a lawsuit. We needed to sue those sons of bitches for what they did to us. I knew the campaign had over $3 million set aside in a legal fund. Could she help me get this lawsuit started? And don’t forget the murder of Seth Rich, I told her. Did she want to contribute to Seth’s reward fund? We still hadn’t found the person responsible for the tragic murder of this bright young DNC staffer.
Brazile is interested in getting her hands on Hillary's money, and she purports to need it to solve 2 mysteries, but it's interesting that she leaps directly from wanting to go after the Russians to finding "the person responsible" for killing Seth Rich. If Donna Brazile really believed that Seth Rich was killed by a common street robber, would she really have brought up the murder in this phone call with Hillary and demanded that campaign money be used to offer a reward? If it were a common robber, he'd have melted back into the population of Washington, D.C. long ago. Why would you think a reward would pull anything in?

Later, at pages 148-149, Brazile talks about the Assange interview (on August 9, 2016) that sparked theories that Rich was assassinated.
On the tape I saw of the interview... [h]e dropped his smirk and said, “Our sources take risks.” Assange was implying that Seth was a source for WikiLeaks! When the interviewer pressed him on his relationship with Seth, Assange left it vague, responding, “We do not comment on our sources. We have to understand how high the stakes are in this case.”

I had been saddened by the crazy conspiracy theories that ignited on Twitter and Reddit. They wounded Seth’s family. I knew this accusation was not true. 
She doesn't say how she knew. She just drops that into a description of an encounter with Bernie Sanders. Sanders showed concern about Rich and asked about his family, and Brazile talked about going to visit the family "and help them plan the memorial and scholarship fund."

The story devolves into praise for Sanders. He's "no-nonsense...  always very grateful to people who tell him the truth." And he sent his regards to the Seth Rich family. So Bernie's listening to the story is used to bolster the truth of the story. He likes people who tell the truth, and Brazile talked to him about the murder, so what she's telling us now must be true. And Bernie's a good man who cared about Rich's family, so we ought to be good and care only about the feelings of Seth Rich's family. That packaging of the Seth Rich mystery makes me suspicious.

Brazile also writes about fear that she might be a target of violence. At page 180:
As I was preparing to fly to Las Vegas for the last debate, Julie, Patrice, and Anne took me aside. They were worried about me traveling alone. The attacks on me had become so frequent and so vicious that they preferred that I have someone along who would watch out for me. What they did not know was how I had been cautioning my family that they should be extra careful now. Our name, Brazile, was distinctive, and it would have been easy for my many sisters and brothers and their children to become the target of some crazed person out to harm me. Several of my siblings said they wanted to come stay with me just until Election Night to make sure I was safe, but I told them no. All I could think about was Seth Rich. Had he been killed by someone who had it out for the Democrats? Likely not, but we still didn’t know. 
But you told Bernie you knew! Or, I mean, you told us that you told Bernie you knew. Why did you call the conspiracy theories "crazy" when you yourself were — in real life — afraid that someone might be coming after you?
If they came after me like that, I didn’t want anyone else to get hurt. This became a very heated conversation. I wanted to maintain my autonomy and not to cause anyone harm, but my colleagues were genuinely concerned for my well-being. Anne mentioned several people who had agreed to escort me, but I instructed her to thank those people and reaffirm that I would travel alone.
If they came after me like that.... Like what?!

ADDED: I looked up more details in the L.A. Times:
When police got to the scene, they found Rich had been shot multiple times, and his credit cards, wallet and watch were still on him. He was later pronounced dead at a hospital. Police ruled his death a homicide — an attempted robbery turned deadly. But questions loomed.

"There had been a struggle. His hands were bruised, his knees are bruised, his face is bruised, and yet he had two shots to his back, and yet they never took anything," Rich's mother, Mary, told NBC shortly after his death.
It's possible that Rich was confronted and he resisted and was trying to get away when he was shot. The shooter might have chosen to flee at that point rather than to search the body for something to steal.

That's how you add it up to robbery.

A reason not to see assassination is that there was a struggle. An assassin would have come up from behind and delivered the kind of shot that would not have given him an opportunity to struggle and would not have left him in any condition to speak to the police before dying.

Brazile's book left out details that made me less suspicious of the "attempted robbery" theory. So I'm a little suspicious about why she did that!

154 comments:

David Begley said...

Excellent analysis by Althouse, per usual.

Exactly what was Seth Rich’s dying declaration? Have the DC police ever said? I think not.

I know Seth Rich’s dad. When Hillary was in Omaha, she met with Seth’s parents.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Doesn't a robber actually, you know , want to take something from you? They usually don't want to kill you, they just want your stuff.

Kevin said...

How hard would it have been for Hillary to say, "Sure, put a reward out to help find Seth's killer"?

Darrell said...

She knows not and doesn't know that she knows not.

rehajm said...

Can you picture an attempted robbery that leaves the victim shot in the back? Doesn't a robber confront you to your face and use the gun to threaten you into giving him money?

I can. The robber shoots you in the back after you tell him to fuck off and turn away to flee.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

That packaging of the Seth Rich mystery makes me suspicious.

You're not supposed to be suspicious. The case is closed and if you dare think the murder is suspicious, you are a conspiracy nut.

tim in vermont said...

She believes that the Russians murdered Rich. She cannot totally break the witch's spell.

Kevin said...

Donna: Hillary, is it true?

Hillary: [pauses] Don't ask me about my business, Donna.

Donna: Is it true?

Hillary: Don't ask me about my business.

Donna: No!

HIllary: [slaps the desk] ENOUGH!!! [calms down] Alright. This one time...this one time, I'll let you ask me about my affairs.

Donna: Is it true? Is it?

Hillary: No.

CStanley said...

I can't figure out if Brazile really knows a lot of dark secrets but knows she can't fully disclose them-instead leaving a bread crumb trail of hints- or if she really just vaguely knows that there's something rotten and doesn't personally know the details of what has been going on in Clinton world. Either way it seems as though she's decided she can no longer keep her position there and is trying to stake out some other place in the Democratic Party such as the Sanders/Warren camp.

tim in vermont said...

Nobody ever wanted to match the fibers on Foster's clothes to any particular carpet either. These are high profile deaths near the center of power. That's why it was critical to limit the investigations.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

The left sure do huddle together and protect one another. At some point, the truth about how deep Clinton corruption goes might come out.

rehajm said...

The Clinton's political moves have always been obvious and transparent. If you believe the theories the only thing the Clintons have been effective at disguising are their assassinations.

tim in vermont said...

If you believe that the Russians killed Rich, that sounds like a major cause for investigation. Of course if, as it looks, it was an on premise act, a simple search of the keycard database and camera footage would have turned up the leaker toute suite.

Darrell said...

Is she pissed at Obama for not letting her know the Trumo/Russia story was made up out of whole cloth, so that the Administration could spy on Trump via FISA warrants?

tim in vermont said...

If you believe that the leak was on premise.

David Begley said...

Did Althouse already read the entire book or just search for Seth Rich in Kindle?

And, Kevin, that Godfather scene is classic. It fits perfectly.

rhhardin said...

If you're contracted to murder someone, you don't leave them talking.

AReasonableMan said...

My understanding is that Brazil thought that the Republicans or the Russians (but I repeat myself) killed Seth Rich.

rhhardin said...

You Vince Foster them.

Darrell said...

So who's the bigger bag of shit--Donna or Hillary?

Tommy Duncan said...

We have no intellectual closure regarding Seth Rich. There are too many unanswered questions. There is a simple explanation for his death (armed robbery) and there is a more devious explanation (the death of an e-mail leaker). But thus far there are too few concrete facts to feel satisfied with any explanation. Meanwhile, the Capital Police seem to want to keep their distance from this situation.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Once is happenstance. Twice is a coincidence. 47 times is a really big coincidence, and what difference, at this point, does it make?

Robert said...

There are at least two people who claim Seth Rich was a Wikileaks source: Kim Dotcom and former Ambassador Craig Murray. That is, beyond Julian Assange, who has only implied it and will apparently never say one way or another.
Kim Dotcom has offered to tell what he knows to Mueller, but Mueller isn't interested.

Darrell said...

When the Democrats kill me, tell then none of that scholarship bullshit. Make it cash to my family.

Robert said...

Oh, I also believe famed journalist Seymour Hersh stated somewhere that the official story on Seth Rich is B.S.

Michael K said...

I have read an account by a nurse at the hospital where Seth Rich was treated. The police (and maybe the SS) barred anyone from the ICU where he was in bed. I have always thought this was suspicious.

tim in vermont said...

"But thus far there are too few concrete facts to feel satisfied with any explanation."

And that's how it is gonna stay. That stome will not be turned

James K said...

There's also a puzzle, that could easily be cleared up, presumably, by the doctors, of how he died from what seemed at the time (or so I've read) to be non-mortal wounds. Of course such things happen, and there can be good explanations, but none have been forthcoming as far as I'm aware.

Darrell said...

The Capitol Police weren't at all concerned that the gun photographed by the first officer on the scene of Vince Foster's suicide is different from the handgun held in evidence--the one they marched with ballistics. Different make and model. Perhaps there are so many guns laying around the park that such things happen all the time.

Sebastian said...

"the Republicans or the Russians (but I repeat myself)"

I understand the snark, of course, but even as snark it doesn't make sense from Brazile's point of view. Presumably "the Republicans" or "the Russians" would've had motive to snuff out Rich to cover their hacking tracks. But they would have no such movie to off Brazile. Insofar as Brazile is really worried about anything "like that," it's about something coming from her side.

Bob Ellison said...

It's getting a little Area 51 in here.

David Begley said...

Two possibilities for Donna here:

1. She is just generating controversy in order to sell books.

2. The former head of the DNC has legit questions and concerns about the murder of Seth Rich.

Henry said...

Brazile is spooked by the Russian hacking. She really keeps coming back to it over and over.

Ann Althouse said...

"Did Althouse already read the entire book or just search for Seth Rich in Kindle?"

I just got the book this morning. I started to read it, ran into that part about the phone conversation with Hillary and it made me want to see what else was in the book about Seth Rich. I was curious because I'd also heard interviews with Brazile in which she made a pretty big deal about her fears for her personal safety and had mentioned the Rich murder in connection with her fear. But this wasn't a fear of robbery, but a fear that people were out to get her.

Bob Ellison said...

And Donna Brazile is not the sharpest or most dependable person around. Smart, yes. Almost got Al Gore, that walking 2X4, elected.

But she's a leftist who tried to get Hillary elected. And now she has this big book out that trashes Hillary. Doesn't say everything, but says enough to sell books.

There are Bible sayings about such people.

William said...

She's a black person in a visible and important role. She's worried that she might be offed by some racist...........Kirov most likely was killed by a jealous husband. Less likely but possibly, he was killed at Stalin's behest. Improbably to the point of impossibility, he was killed by the hundreds of "conspirators " that Stalin executed for killing Kirov.......Never let a good conspiracy go to waste.

AReasonableMan said...

Sebastian said...
it doesn't make sense from Brazile's point of view


Brazile fed debate questions to Hillary and is now complaining that the primary was rigged. Not sure that 'making sense' is Brazile's goal here.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

her fears for her personal safety and had mentioned the Rich murder in connection with her fear. But this wasn't a fear of robbery, but a fear that people were out to get her.

Dumbplumber (my husband's online handle) and I were speculating that Donna's book is a way to get out ahead of the threat to her personal safety. Given the number of mysterious and suspicious deaths/suicides/murders that seem to accumulate around certain ...ahem....Democrats...it isn't an unfounded fear.

Now, by going public with some of the dirt, perhaps she hopes that it would be too high profile for those who mean her harm to actually do the deed.

Proactive.

Ralph L said...

She thinks she's good enough for the other side to want to eliminate.

Gospace said...

And we see that Brazile doesn't seem to accept that it was simply a robbery

No one with two brain cells to rub together accepts that it was simply a robbery. Or rather, a robbery gone bad. He was a liberal- one of those who teach "Don't resist, give it up. Don't risk your life to save your wallet." Shot in the back? Sorry, robbers make rational decisions on cost/benefit ratios. Shooting in the back makes it first degree murder. Ruins the cost/benefit ratio. And not taking anything afterward? Nonsense.

And Seth Rich resisted? That means there's DNA evidence. I'll bet they've uncovered none.

Michael K said...

Brazile may be doing two things. Trying to make some money and trying to keep herself safe.

Her fears may be irrational but she knows people that we don't.

She may not know enough about computers to realize the leak was not a "hack" from outside but stolen data transferred to a thumb drive, a la Bradley Manning and Snowden.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Bob Ellison said...

It's getting a little Area 51 in here.

Area 51 is a giant hoax, set up by the government to distract us from their active collusion with the Underpants Gnomes.

William said...

Interesting side note to the Kirov case: The jealous husband was a Communist Party member. Communist Party members were allowed to own guns. After Kirov's murder this dispensation was revoked. No more guns in private hands, not even for CP members. There were no further incidences of men being shot by jealous Communist Party members. There were also no incidents of the secret police being shot at by dissident Commies who objected to midnight arrests by the secret police. Win win for everybody.

Bob Boyd said...

Brazil was pretty well known. Why would she feel threatened as a result of Seth Rich being killed? No one ever heard of Seth Rich until he was killed.
Why would a wacko Republican go after him?

Why would Russians want to kill him? It's a long way from a phishing scam to murdering DNC staffers and even further to murdering the head of the DNC.
I can see why death threats from random wackos could get to you, but how does that relate to Seth Rich being killed in a robbery?

Amadeus 48 said...

David Begley at 7:30.

Re: Seth Rich.

She is just generating controversy in order to sell books.

If
she really knows something, she wouldn't be thrashing around the subject like this, and she wouldn't put it in her book. This isn't a live interview, where anxieties pop to the surface in unexpected ways. This is an edited, calculated publication that doesn't say anything. It is chumming the waters for book buyers.

Enjoy, Althouse.

tim in vermont said...

I think Brazile is worried about some Hannity fan going all Maddow fan at the DNC softball tournament.

tim in vermont said...

Even she could see that the robbery explanation stunk of bullshit.

EDH said...

A reason not to see assassination is that there was a struggle. An assassin would have come up from behind and delivered the kind of shot that would not have given him an opportunity to struggle and would not have left him in any condition to speak to the police before dying.

Unless an assassin wanted it to appear like a robbery, demanded valuables and a struggle ensued?

Matthew Sablan said...

Brazille says: "Had he been killed by someone who had it out for the Democrats?"

That's... a really weird assumption to go with.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

DC police are reported to have a grainy video from a convenience store across the street showing the legs and feet of the two people who likely killed Seth Rich. Suspicious that Althouse left out that detail. That proves it was Althouse and Meade, wearing shorts.

AReasonableMan said...

EDH said...
"A reason not to see assassination is that there was a struggle."

Unless an assassin wanted it to appear like a robbery


See, there is always a logical explanation for everything.

Bad Lieutenant said...


rhhardin said...
If you're contracted to murder someone, you don't leave them talking.
11/7/17, 7:13 AM


Talking from personal experience, are you? Or is this from your DVDs? Humans are surprisingly tough and hard to kill. Assassination attempts fail all the time, or at any rate the patient often lingers.

I actually had been thinking, gee, if you need someone to pull off a clean hit, go see the Russians; but though the getting away clean argues for them, against is a) not a clean kill, and b) Russians doing wet work in the US Capitol, man, that's heavy.



AReasonableMan said...
My understanding is that Brazil thought that the Republicans or the Russians (but I repeat myself) killed Seth Rich.
11/7/17, 7:14 AM

Understanding. The next understanding you have will be your first. Probably your last too, because if you ever saw yourself as others see you, what choice would you have but suicide?

narayanan said...

michael k said - "The police (and maybe the SS) barred anyone from the ICU where he was in bed."

easy group for a hit artiste to blend in according to hollywood.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Matthew Sablan said...
Brazille says: "Had he been killed by someone who had it out for the Democrats?"

That's... a really weird assumption to go with.




Madman: Dead centre - say you're prayers, half breed!
(cans begin to pop on the display Navin is standing next to)
Navin: Hey Harry, look at this! What's the matter with these cans?
Madman: Die milk face!
(more cans pop)
Navin: These cans are defective - they're springing leaks! Come over here and look at this!
Harry: Listen, you better run for cover or you're going to spring a leak!
Navin: Huh?
Harry: We don't have defective cans, we have a defective person out there!
Navin: He hates these cans! Stay away from the cans!
Madman: Die gas pumper!
(the glass on a pump breaks)
Navin: Get away from those cans!
(Navin runs inside the station)
Navin: There's cans in there too!
(the gas station window breaks)
Navin: More cans!
Madman: Die you bastard!
Harry: He doesn't want to put holes in the cans, he want to put holes in you!
Navin: What?

William Chadwick said...

Vince Foster and Kathleen Willey's cat could not be reached for comment.

Bruce Hayden said...

You still have the basic problem that the contents of the DNC email server were almost assuredly leaked right before he was killed. Not hacked, but leaked. The only real evidence of Russian hacking was Trump's unfortunate comment that if you wanted to know what was in Crooked Hillary's email, after she had the 30,000 emails illegally deleted, was to ask the Russians. Not the DNC emails, but Clunton's illegally deleted emails. Oh, and the nonsense from Cloudstrike, hired by Clinton political operatives. On the flip side, in favor of a leak, are statements by Assange about the source of the Wikikeaked documents, time stamps for the copying that show it almost had to be an inside job, and the negative evidence that the putative transfer was not picked up by the NSA. The one email account that we know was hacked (through an admitted pfishing attack) was her campaign chair, Leon Poneta.

Pretty much everyone expects the Dems in general, and the Clinton's in particular, to cheat their asses off to win. Winning is everything, esp with north of a billion dollars contributed for her reelection and a comparable amount to her family foundation/slush fund. She couldn't afford to lose (but of course did). But the Brazile book makes clear that the level of cheating, and, in particular, the cheating to get the nomination, was enough to shock the conscience of a cynical long time Dem party insider and leader like her. What about the idealistic millennials at the bottom of the organization like Rich? As I said, it was almost assuredly an inside leak, but the DNC did nothing to try to plug the leak (or the alleged hacking). Instead, they kept the FBI as far away as they could. One logical thought is that maybe they weren't worried about the leak, because it had been plugged, and that maybe the way that it had (maybe) been plugged, with extreme prejudice, was a highly visible mafia level warning to any other potential leakers in the DNC and in Crooked Hillary's campaign. That Brazile could publicly now admit to similar doubts is suggestive that this is completely plausible, at least in her mind, as an insider who had been around the Clinton's for years.

AllenS said...

Ralph L said...
She thinks she's good enough for the other side to want to eliminate.

I say: She thinks she's good enough for her side to want to eliminate.

brylun said...

My guess is that Seth Rich had access to the DNC server (probably anyone working in IT for the DNC would have access), and possibly could have downloaded the info to a thumb drive as The Nation has reported.

brylun said...

That, together with Assange's $20k reward, and the mysterious circumstances of his death, the use of Crowdstrike rather than the FBI, and other anomalies raise questions yet unanswered about him.

brylun said...

I wonder if Donna Brazile's book has info about Crowdstrike vs. FBI?

AllenS said...

Just in: DNC’s Donna Brazile dedicated her book to “patriot” Seth Rich

Bob Boyd said...

Reading reports of how far Weinstein went to track, spy on and intimidate people who were a threat to him because of what they knew, I have to wonder if his buddies the Clintons wouldn't do the same.

Gabriel said...

We are going to find, I think, that when the book comes out, the narrative presented there is very different from what we are constructing here with extracts from the book.

Saint Croix said...

If you're contracted to murder someone, you don't leave them talking.

You also don't get in a fistfight with them first.

He's got bruises on his body. Why does he have bruises? There was a fight. He had bruises on his fists, and also on his body. That means his assailants were hitting him before they shot him, and he was hitting them. And then he ran and was shot in the back. And he was not robbed.

I don't care what the police say, it is quite easy to rob somebody after you shoot them. It's easy and fast. Takes 30 seconds.

Robbery attempt is a bad theory. Contract killing is a bad theory. Neither of those theories match the facts, which are bruises on the hands and body, and wallet and watch on his person.

tim in vermont said...

Anybody got a quality link to the known facts regarding the murder of Seth Rich?

Unknown said...

“This is an edited, calculated publication that doesn't say anything. It is chumming the waters for book buyers.”

Precisely.

tim in vermont said...

How did he bruise that fast?

Bob Boyd said...

"How did he bruise that fast?"

He was a Millennial.

brylun said...

Vermont Tim, other than the links I posted above, I am unaware of any quality links. But if anyone has more good info, let's see it. Does anyone know whether Seth Rich was a Bernie supporter? Does anyone know what his job title was at the DNC?

Saint Croix said...

I would consider the possibility that somebody was trying to abduct him. They were trying to get him into a car. And he didn't want to go. He was struggling against an abduction, fighting back. And then running away.

It wasn't the plan to kill him. That would be my theory.

Now, who was trying to get him into a car?

If you want to entertain the suspicion that somebody in the government wanted to kill Seth Rich, I would ask that you shift the accusation slightly. Maybe somebody in the government wanted to abduct Seth Rich.

Entirely possible that this person or persons showed him their badge and told him to get in a car. And instead of complying he fought back.

Why did they shoot him? Because he saw their badge. And because their behavior was unlawful. He had committed no crime, was doing nothing wrong. And if he escapes, he can testify as to what they tried to do. He can go to the media.

So that's why he was shot. It was a botched abduction. They wanted to question him, or make him disappear. That's the theory I would adopt from these facts.

Saint Croix said...

Any bad investigations or bad theories that come from the police should be met with the suspicion that the police are involved in this homicide.

Matthew Sablan said...

I'm not willing to get on the conspiracy train regarding Rich's murder.

But, if I *had* to choose a conspiracy for "who killed Seth Rich?" it wouldn't be Republicans, who had no clue who he was, or the Russians, who if the conspiracy is to be believed, were using him to get the emails.

AllenS said...

They didn't want to kill Seth Rich, but abduct him, bring him to a safe spot, and waterboard him to find out what he knew, and the names of others who knew.

AllenS
Area 51 administrator

brylun said...

There is a Wikipedia page on the Murder of Seth Rich.

Saint Croix said...

Anybody got a quality link to the known facts regarding the murder of Seth Rich?

I have a crappy link that starts off very informative, and then shifts into Russians and Donald Trump and becomes liberal stupidity.

But one think leaped out at me from that story.

Rich had been on a call with his girlfriend when the episode began. Police monitors picked up sounds of gunshots, and officers responded. The murder remains under investigation.

Police monitors? What?

Why were police monitoring his cell phone?

hombre said...

Thirty years as a prosecutor tells me, based on what I have read, that the attempted robbery theory is a stretch. The back shooting and other factors suggest that the perpetrator set out to kill Rich.

AReasonableMan said...

AllenS said...
They didn't want to kill Seth Rich, but abduct him, bring him to a safe spot, and waterboard him to find out what he knew, and the names of others who knew.


The waterboarding is clear evidence of Republican involvement.

Big Mike said...

I thought I knew all about the Seth Rich case, but this is the first I learned about bruises on his body and signs of a fight. I agree with Saint Croix that neither robbery nor assassination are all that plausible though the robbery gone wrong theory gains credibility.

Anonymous said...

"Darrell said...
So who's the bigger bag of shit--Donna or Hillary?"

They are both bags of feces- you tell me which one weighs more.


And Dr. Kennedy adds an interesting fact at 7:22.

Saint Croix said...

Daily Mail story is pretty good

There were two assailants, according to the paper.

Also their is video footage?

Burkman has also been able to review surveillance footage of the murder that police obtained from a local grocery store. He said the grainy video shows two people standing near Rich, a scuffle, and Rich falling to the ground.

Why isn't this video on the news? It seems to me that when there is video evidence of a crime, it's always on the news. Why stifle it? Bizarre.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

@DBQ
"Given the number of mysterious and suspicious deaths/suicides/murders that seem to accumulate around certain ...ahem....Democrats...it isn't an unfounded fear.

Now, by going public with some of the dirt, perhaps she hopes that it would be too high profile for those who mean her harm to actually do the deed."


I think so.

Big Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Saint Croix said...

Consider the possibility that the police investigation was stifled in 2016 by higher ups, who are secretive and want to control information.

Why did the police not release the surveillance footage of the murder?

Why did the police release a really crappy "botched robbery" theory to the media, a theory that is a bad explanation for the killing?

Note that both of these actions downplay any media interest in the killing. If you release the surveillance footage, the murder becomes a big story. But if you stifle information and say nothing, the story goes away.

If you say it was a "botched robbery," then the story goes away. Just another senseless killing on the streets of Washington D.C.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

The fact that the media, the DC police and democrats are completely uninterested in his death is also rather curious.
If the media/dems can blame the Russians for this too, why not? Russians! Why on earth would the Russians want Seth Rich dead? I suspect Rich was a disgruntled Bernie supporter and he probably gave up some insider DNC info that would have hurt Clinton/Podesta. Retribution.

Big Mike said...

Why were police monitoring his cell phone?

They weren’t. The DC Police use a system of acoustic sensors called ShotSpotter that are tuned to respond to the distinct acoustic signal of a gunshot. The time difference in when each sensor detects the acoustic signal is used to triangulate the location of the gunfire so police can respond faster.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Even more curious: The Russians and the Clintons have more in common when it comes to curious suspicious unsolved murders.

Big Mike said...

It does rather strengthen Saint Croix’s take about pressure from higher ups if you are aware that the then Chief of Police for the District of Columbia, Cathy Lanier, resigned early and unexpectedly not long after the Seth Rich murder.

tim in vermont said...

The murder spawned several right-wing conspiracy theories about the crime, including the claim that Rich had been involved with the leaked DNC emails in 2016, which runs contrary to U.S. intelligence that concluded the leaked DNC emails were part of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections.[5][6][7] These theories were debunked by law enforcement,[5][6] as well as by fact-checking websites like PolitiFact.com,[6][8] Snopes.com,[9] and FactCheck.org.[5] The fabrications were described as fake news and falsehoods by The New York Times,[10] Los Angeles Times,[11] and The Washington Post.[12]

Wow! That's a smackdown! Politifact, Snopes, and Factcheck.org all agree that there is nothing to see here, move on! And to top if off, we have the opinions of the New York Times, Los Angles Times, and the WaPo! CAYSE CLOSEhD!

tim in vermont said...

Funny thing about Wikipedia is that their footnotes keep circling back to the same couple of assertions, I guess they feel that the more footnotes, no matter how they circle back to the same sources, the more evidence.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Funny thing about Wikipedia is that their footnotes keep circling back to the same couple of assertions, I guess they feel that the more footnotes, no matter how they circle back to the same sources, the more evidence."

-- Wikipedia is destined to do that, since they're supposed to do no original research. So, instead, on controversial current events, you get something that reads like something between a Sally Brown essay and a local paper's editorial.

Gabriel said...

@tim in vermont:Funny thing about Wikipedia is that their footnotes keep circling back to the same couple of assertions

Citogenesis.

The "scroll lock" key was designed by future Energy Secretary Steven Chu in a college project.

Matthew Sablan said...

Now, on non-controversial events from the past, Wikipedia can be very good.

But, sifting through the B.S. is often not worth it if I have the time to use a real library or even just the Internet to vet secondary or primary sources myself.

Saint Croix said...

The DC Police use a system of acoustic sensors called ShotSpotter that are tuned to respond to the distinct acoustic signal of a gunshot. The time difference in when each sensor detects the acoustic signal is used to triangulate the location of the gunfire so police can respond faster.

Thanks!

Ralph L said...

I didn't realize how easy it is to edit Wikipedia until I did it myself.

Matthew Sablan said...

It is easy to edit Wikipedia.

It is a pain the ass to edit Wikipedia in a way that Wikipedia editors with more time than you won't find an issue with if they disagree with you.

FullMoon said...

Interesting how some people ascribe rational thought processes to a street criminal with a gun.

Rich may have resisted robbery, which is a big "Fuck you" to robber. Rich running away after fight, pissed off robber feels "fuck me?, no fuck you" bang bang.

And, maybe Rich got punched in face,accounting for bruises then ran way and falls to hand and knees after shot, accounting for other bruises.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

We will see more interest in Seth Rich now that the left blames Russia!

Ralph L said...

The DC Police use a system of acoustic sensors called ShotSpotter that are tuned to respond to the distinct acoustic signal of a gunshot.
Does it operate throughout the District, or just in NW where the rich people live and no one gets shot?

Mac McConnell said...

We know the DNC wasn't hacked.
We know Seth Rich was the source of the DNC data.
We know Seth Rich was shot and died.
We know people are shot and killed for much less.

Ralph L said...

According to L&O, blows inflicted peri mortem can cause bruises that appear a day or two after death.

Quaestor said...

"There had been a struggle. His hands were bruised, his knees are bruised, his face is bruised"

Those injuries are much more consistent with falling to the pavement after being shot than any struggle scenario I can concoct. You're shot in the back. Your legs go instantly limp as the nerve truck is disrupted. Whether you topple forward or backward is a 50/50 toss-up. Shooting victims aren't knocked down by the impact of the bullet. They fall, but it's not a matter of inertia. If you fall forward the hands come into play reflexively. You thrust them forward to break your fall. Whether you save your face from an impact with the ground is a matter of probabilities. An outstanding athlete has better odds than the average schlub. The knees are almost certain to be bruised, as are the hands. The face may escape injury in the rare circumstance.

Struggles are usually indicated by defensive injuries to the forearms or to the knuckles and can be definitively proven by traces of the assailant's DNA under the victim's fingernails. Until that evidence is revealed the "robbery gone wrong" theory is very weak.

Althouse wrote: A reason not to see assassination is that there was a struggle.

There was a struggle? Fact not in evidence (see above)

Althouse wrote: An assassin would have come up from behind and delivered the kind of shot that would not have given him an opportunity to struggle and would not have left him in any condition to speak to the police before dying.

Correction, a Hollywood assassin does these things. Real assassins are desperate fuck-ups and not efficient killing machines like Jason Bourne. A putative assassin could have left the job not immediately complete for any one of the same reasons that Clinton apologists venture in favor of a street robber who kills and takes nothing. QED

Michael said...

"(H)is credit cards, wallet and watch were still on him...)

OK, but what about the thumb drive he may or may not have had in his pocket?

Saint Croix said...

She dedicated her book to Seth Rich, by the way.

tim in vermont said...

Just for the sake of argument, if it had been "assassins" and they knew about the acoustic sensors, they would have had to clear out the second shots were fired, no time to check pulses or keep shooting. At least that is what I would do.

It would be interesting to know what he said to cops, but I guess that is not for us to know.

tim in vermont said...

Of course they would also maybe have used quieter rounds, with less powder, at closer range.

None of it adds up. So maybe it was a botched robbery and Bernie Fan Seth Rich did fight those unfortunate souls who needed his property more than he did, given his privilege, and all.

Gabriel said...

@Quaestor:A putative assassin could have left the job not immediately complete

This is reflected in the heraldic motto of Clan Kirkpatrick, "I make sure"--their ancestor went back to finish an assassination that Robert the Bruce bungled.

Mac McConnell said...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4034038/Ex-British-ambassador-WikiLeaks-operative-claims-Russia-did-NOT-provide-Clinton-emails-handed-D-C-park-intermediary-disgusted-Democratic-insiders.html#ixzz4SrPRdrRU

Saint Croix said...

From the Newsweek article…

Media reports had characterized Rich as a low-level staffer, and his parents wrote in an opinion piece for The Washington Post in May, “Those who have suggested that Seth’s role as a data analyst at the DNC gave him access to a wide trove of emails are simply incorrect.”

Hypothesis: Seth Rich was a Bernie Bro who hated Hillary Clinton. He thought she was corrupt, dangerous, bad. And so he leaked some e-mails to discredit her and her campaign.

Fact: Seth Rich was murdered.

Hypothesis #2: Some higher up in the DNC, angry about the murder of Seth Rich, decided to release all the information they had to Wikileaks.

Ann Althouse said...

"'Althouse wrote: An assassin would have come up from behind and delivered the kind of shot that would not have given him an opportunity to struggle and would not have left him in any condition to speak to the police before dying.' Correction, a Hollywood assassin does these things. Real assassins are desperate fuck-ups and not efficient killing machines like Jason Bourne. A putative assassin could have left the job not immediately complete for any one of the same reasons that Clinton apologists venture in favor of a street robber who kills and takes nothing. QED"

I just want to add that if the idea is to assassinate someone but make it look like mundane street crime, then you would not want the kind of shooting I described. You might make it look like a common robbery, and you might also run away without taking the wallet.

Ann Althouse said...

"Media reports had characterized Rich as a low-level staffer, and his parents wrote in an opinion piece for The Washington Post in May, “Those who have suggested that Seth’s role as a data analyst at the DNC gave him access to a wide trove of emails are simply incorrect.”"

Why would his parents be a source of information on that subject?

kevino said...

RE: "It's possible that Rich was confronted and he resisted and was trying to get away when he was shot. The shooter might have chosen to flee at that point rather than to search the body for something to steal. That's how you add it up to robbery."
Key issue is that there may have been two attackers.

RE: "A reason not to see assassination is that there was a struggle. An assassin would have come up from behind ..."
Unless it started as a kidnapping, and Rich determined that the two men were going to take him someplace more quiet. If you're going to be taken away to be killed, you strike immediately because you have a better chance of survival and because the odds are better that your killers cannot get away cleanly. This is SOP in an armed robbery. If they have the drop on you and want money, give it to them. If they are herding everyone to the back of the store, you need to pick a time and fight like hell because they are going to kill the witnesses.

RE: "I'm a little suspicious about why she did that [referenced Seth Rich]!"
Either she wanted to make a dig at the Clintons or she fears for her life. One thing is certain: she knows how the Clintons operate.

AReasonableMan said...

So, as things stand now, based on Donna Brazile's testimony, the prime suspects are the Republican/Russian connection.

Saint Croix said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Saint Croix said...

From the book...

I felt some responsibility for Seth Rich’s death. I didn’t bring him into the DNC, but I helped keep him there working on voting rights. With all I knew now about the Russians’ hacking, I could not help but wonder if they had played some part in his unsolved murder. Besides that, racial tensions were high that summer and I worried that he was murdered for being white on the wrong side of town. [My friend] Elaine expressed her doubts about that, and I heard her. The FBI said that they did not see any Russian fingerprints there.

Her thoughts are kind of incoherent here. Bad editing. Let's break it down a little bit.

I felt some responsibility for Seth Rich’s death.

Why? How? Weird thing to say.

I didn’t bring him into the DNC, but I helped keep him there working on voting rights…

racial tensions were high that summer and I worried that he was murdered for being white on the wrong side of town.


She thought maybe it was a hate crime. She was worried that Rich was killed on account of his race. And it made her feel guilty. She had done nothing wrong, but his death was bugging her.

[My friend] Elaine expressed her doubts about that, and I heard her.

Not a hate crime, in other words.

This is the incoherent part…

With all I knew now about the Russians’ hacking, I could not help but wonder if they had played some part in his unsolved murder.

When did she know about the Russians hacking? Why would the Russians murder Seth Rich? They hack the e-mails and then murder some DNC staffer? Why? To stop his leaks? Why the hell would Russians who are hacking e-mails kill somebody to stop the leaks?

Makes no sense whatsoever. Unless…

"all I knew now about the Russians' hacking"

is a veiled reference to her knowledge that the "Russians hacking" was a story invented by the Hillary campaign and/or the Obama administration. She knew the Russian hacking was bullshit from day one.

The FBI said that they did not see any Russian fingerprints there.

Who did she talk to in the FBI about "Russian fingerprints" in the Seth Rich murder? Because according to the FBI, they did not investigate the Seth Rich murder at all.

Facts: She felt guilt about the murder of Seth Rich, and anger at Hillary Clinton and her campaign.

Hypothesis: Donna Brazille leaked large numbers of e-mails to WikiLeaks.

Quaestor said...

ARM wrote: So, as things stand now, based on Donna Brazile's testimony, the prime suspects are the Republican/Russian connection.

Only to a mentally crippled delusionary.

Martin said...

"A reason not to see assassination is that there was a struggle. An assassin would have come up from behind and delivered the kind of shot that would not have given him an opportunity to struggle and would not have left him in any condition to speak to the police before dying."

Unless, the assassin wanted it to look like a robbery gone bad, in which case 2 or 3 people working together would have provoked a fight to create some medical evidence of a struggle, then shot him.

Of course, that's the thing about conspiracy theories, you can make up a conspiracy to fit any set of facts. Personally, I have no idea, but it is a lot easier to think that Oswald acted alone or that Ted Kennedy was just confused for 8 hours as he plotted legal and media strategy after driving off the bridge, than that Seth Rich was just a robbery gone bad.

Martin said...

There still is the fact that the DNC called in a private firm rather than the FBI when they saw they were hacked. What were they intent on keeping from the FBI?

The whole thing stinks, and by "whole thing" I mean everything to do with the Clintons since the late 1970s.

tim in vermont said...

I can see the fuckup robbers shooting him because low implulse control, remembering the gunshot detectors, and getting the hell out of there.

tim in vermont said...

Occam's Razor, which is not the same thing as a logical proof, says robbery, with open questions and room for debate.

cubanbob said...

AReasonableMan said...
So, as things stand now, based on Donna Brazile's testimony, the prime suspects are the Republican/Russian connection."

Got it backwards old boy. Hillary was an asset of the Russians. Bought and paid for. They were protecting an asset.

Now for the reality of the matter, things get murkier. Rich could have been the leaker as per the Assange insinuation and have been killed by the local DC wildlife without any conspiracy.

Ralph L said...

Why would his parents be a source of information on that subject?

The DNC wanted to get the word out via people whom it would be unseemly to dispute.

Saint Croix said...

Seth Rich sounds like a nice guy.

Drago said...

AReasonableMan: "So, as things stand now, based on Donna Brazile's testimony, the prime suspects are the Republican/Russian connection."

Perhaps even Rand Paul's overly-aggressive ribs...according to ARM

buwaya said...

"and have been killed by the local DC wildlife without any conspiracy."

This would have been an extremely low-probability event.
An extreme coincidence, especially so if Rich was the leaker.

AReasonableMan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AReasonableMan said...

"“They just couldn’t get along. I think it had very little to do with Democrat or Republican politics,” said Jim Skaggs, who developed the gated community and who lives nearby. “I think it was a neighbor-to-neighbor thing. They just both had strong opinions, and a little different ones about what property rights mean.” - where one should or should not put one's garden trash.

“The unfortunate occurrence of November 3rd has absolutely nothing to do with either’s politics or political agendas. It was a very regrettable dispute between two neighbors over a matter that most people would regard as trivial,” - gardening.

Yancey Ward said...

Brazile's story about Rich and her own fears, of course, don't really make logical sense, do they? She seems to imply that Rich was murdered by the Russians because he was the leaker so, then, why is she afraid for her own life?

Having pointed that out, it is clear to me, at least, that Brazile is selling a book with this part of the story. She wants to use Rich's murder as a prop, but can't, of course, then reach the logical conspiracy theory that Rich was murdered by the people hurt by a leak- it would implicate herself and number of her colleagues. I still think Rich was murdered in a robbery gone wrong- it doesn't look like an assassination to me unless the shooter really was truly incompetent at it. This part of the book makes Brazile look dumber than usual.

Saint Croix said...

Powerful article in The Nation

There was no hack of the Democratic National Committee’s system on July 5 last year—not by the Russians, not by anyone else. Hard science now demonstrates it was a leak—a download executed locally with a memory key or a similarly portable data-storage device. In short, it was an inside job by someone with access to the DNC’s system. This casts serious doubt on the initial “hack,” as alleged, that led to the very consequential publication of a large store of documents on WikiLeaks last summer.

William said...

I refer again to the Kirov assassination. There was a conspiracy to make a murder committed by a jealous husband look like a conspiracy.

tim in vermont said...

If The Nation is right, the Democrats know exactly who did it.

AReasonableMan said...

tim in vermont said...
If The Nation is right, the Democrats know exactly who did it.


A Republican/Russian cabal. It's shocking. Shocking I say. Shocking!

tim in vermont said...

Ha ha ha!

https://www.christianpost.com/news/hillary-clinton-satan-fighting-jesus-russia-facebook-ads-205210/

tim in vermont said...

Oops, not supposed to laugh! Wrongthought!

AReasonableMan said...

Russians and Republicans joining together to spread propaganda and murder a nice midwestern Jewish boy.

Saint Croix said...

Maybe there was an internal investigation in the DNC to find and stop the leaks.

There are always leaks. It's a fact of life, in every party, in every campaign, in every administration.

Donna Brazille herself was leaking debate questions. Not to the media, but to Hillary Clinton.

Anyway, if you were suspicious of leaks that were hurting Hillary Clinton, you would focus on Bernie Sanders fans in the DNC. Right? And maybe they started getting suspicious of Seth Rich.

Maybe Brazille relayed her suspicions to Hillary. She liked Hillary. They had a working relationship.

And maybe, a few weeks after that conversation, Seth Rich is murdered.

Imagine the shock.

You don't know who murdered him. You thought maybe he should be fired. You feel tremendous guilt for naming him.

I felt some responsibility for Seth Rich’s death.

And it might be that the murder was, in fact, a botched robbery. It might have been a horrible coincidence. You don't know.

But you're suspicious. And so, provoked by his murder, you respond. You retaliate. And a week or so after his murder, you leak a whole ton of e-mails.

And don’t forget the murder of Seth Rich, I told (Hillary). Did she want to contribute to Seth’s reward fund?

You're testing Hillary. Months later, you're still trying to figure it out. Did she have him killed? Did she impede the investigation? Whose side is she on?

And the answer is no, Hillary does not want to contribute to Seth's reward fund.

And so you write a book. And you dedicate that book to Seth Rich.

Maybe?

AReasonableMan said...

Saint Croix said...
Maybe?


Or maybe a Republican/Russian cabal? We now know that they were cooperating on other things - propaganda, hacking email accounts, and now maybe murder. Murder. The Russians are good at Murder.

Rabel said...

My theory:

It wasn't a professional hit/assassination. Too sloppy.

It wasn't a robbery. Nothing was stolen.

It was an ass-whipping gone bad by coworkers or other Democrat/Hillary cultists who learned about the leaks (or some other act of which they disapproved) and intended to teach the boy a lesson. They followed him, confronted him, he fought back with some success and so they pulled out a gun and shot him. They acted on their own. They were all drunk at the time.

Assrat said...

>Only to a mentally crippled delusionary.

Basically, yeah. The "Republican/Russian Cabal" hallucinated by the Left has no motive.

I'm not convinced this was a political murder, but Clinton's the only one with a credible reason, and even that's not too impressive.

MadTownGuy said...

Ann Althouse wrote: "Why would his parents be a source of information on that subject?"

I saw the first news report on a DC TV channel and the circumstances as described struck me as odd. Then when his parents were interviewed shortly thereafter they said something to the effect of 'we hope no one thinks that this happened because he worked at the DNC.' It was that statement that caught my attention because I had not heard anything then about conspiracy theories. It may have been that there were such theories being talked about early on, but they were not evident in the news reports or the usual online sources on either side of the political spectrum, at least not that I had seen within the first week after the event.

AllenS said...

Before commenting any more about this issue, ask yourself this question, what was the motive. There is no reason at all to think that Russians or Trump people had anything to do with his death. Democrats? You bet, they had plenty of reasons for him not to be around any longer.

AllenS said...

Assrat got there before me, I see.

buwaya said...

" It may have been that there were such theories being talked about early on, but they were not evident in the news reports or the usual online sources"

It was certainly being talked about as a suspicious murder almost immediately, in the fever swamp regions. DNC staff member murdered in the middle of a bitter election.

The fever swamps are where interesting things are posted first. Maybe true, maybe not.
Sometimes things that are predicted to happen, don't, and that's that. Sometimes something does happen that's in the ballpark.

Subsequent data makes the SR case even more mysterious. Still TBD.

Gospace said...

Saint Croix said...
I would consider the possibility that somebody was trying to abduct him.


A few years ago I would have laughed at at this... but not now. It's more rational than robbery gone bad. Also more rational is this:

Rabel said...
It was an ass-whipping gone bad by coworkers or other Democrat/Hillary cultists who learned about the leaks (or some other act of which they disapproved) and intended to teach the boy a lesson.


There re a whole lot of scenarios more realistic than robbery gone bad based on what's been released.

Saint Croix said...

Or maybe a Republican/Russian cabal?

No motive whatsoever to kill Seth Rich. Under any scenario.

ARM you ought to click on that link I provided at 1:07.

That's The Nation explaining how there was no hack.

It was done internally, by somebody in the DNC, who wanted to sabotage Hillary Clinton's campaign.

Be serious for once.

AReasonableMan said...

But the Russian are wicked smart with these modern computer thingies. Maybe, just maybe, they made it look like an inside job not a hack and then murdered Seth Rich to strengthen the story, while colluding with the Trump campaign, of course.

William Chadwick said...

Quaestor:

"ARM wrote: So, as things stand now, based on Donna Brazile's testimony, the prime suspects are the Republican/Russian connection.

"Only to a mentally crippled delusionary."

Or a cultist, Q-man. "Liberalism" is a secular religion, a modern incarnation of the age-old State Cult.

Bad Lieutenant said...

AReasonableMan said...
But the Russian are wicked smart


You're a MASSHOLE?!?

Of course! That explains everything!!!

Quaestor said...

I'm not convinced this was a political murder, but Clinton's the only one with a credible reason, and even that's not too impressive.

Very few real murders fit into the patterns of detective fiction à la Agatha Christie. Real murder motives are typically nebulous if not downright insane. If Clinton is connected to the murder of Seth Rich my instincts tell me the real situation will prove to be akin to the death Thomas à Becket at the hands of four of Henry II's most loyal knights. What miserable drones and traitors have I nourished and brought up in my household, who let their lord be treated with such shameful contempt by a low-born cleric?

Quaestor said...

ARM (who else?) wrote: The Russians are good at Murder.

They are so good at "Murder" (don't just love that silly capitalization?) they studious avoid killing people whose deaths accrue to them no benefit.

Assrat said...

>Very few real murders fit into the patterns of detective fiction à la Agatha Christie.

True enough. Personally, I'm dubious of scenarios that read like the back cover of a book you buy in an airport bookstore because you forgot to load your Kindle. Sure, it could happen, but real life tends to be a lot stupider.

buwaya said...

"If Clinton is connected to the murder of Seth Rich my instincts tell me the real situation will prove to be akin to the death Thomas à Becket at the hands of four of Henry II's most loyal knights. "

I think so too.
Presumably someone at the DNC panicked on learning that their mail database had been taken, and upon tracing the leak to Rich they called in not-too-efficient enforcers.
Perhaps also they were afraid of what else Rich may have known (whether he actually did or not). The wicked flee (or murder leakers), where no one pursues.

grackle said...

Rich was attacked, there was a struggle and he was shot. That’s all we know about the incident. It’s a common enough occurrence. It’s too bad the young man wasn’t armed. He might be alive today.

If I’m ever mugged, depending on the circumstance, I’ll take out my wallet and toss it a few feet and run the other way. I’m not going to shoot someone over a wallet. They can have it with my blessing.

If they attempt to follow or to harm me and I can get a clean shot they’ll regret it.

AReasonableMan said...

grackle said...
It’s too bad the young man wasn’t armed. He might be alive today.


Not a chance against the Russians(Republicans). They are playing for all the marbles.

Bob Loblaw said...

"Can you picture an attempted robbery that leaves the victim shot in the back? Doesn't a robber confront you to your face and use the gun to threaten you into giving him money?"

I can. The robber shoots you in the back after you tell him to fuck off and turn away to flee.


Seth Rich was still conscious when the cops got there. He was confused and didn't realize he'd been shot. In the robbery scenario, where a robber points a gun at you and shoots you as you run away, there's no way you don't realize you've been shot.

If, on the other hand, someone you don't know and didn't see shoots you from behind with no warning...