October 28, 2017

"The 'shitty media men' list wasn’t made to be a bludgeon. When the anonymous, crowdsourced Google spreadsheet was first created earlier this month..."

"... to collect anonymous reports of alleged sexual abusers, harassers, and general creeps in the New York City media and publishing sphere, it was presented, and understood by its creators, more as a shield than as a weapon — a tool to help women to protect themselves from men they should avoid. It was highly and admittedly unreliable — 'take everything with a grain of salt,' it said at the top, and 'if you see a man you’re friends with, don’t freak out' — but it was also private, meant to be shared quietly and directly between women the way whispered warnings always have been. This model, of course, didn’t work for very long. For about 24 hours, the list circulated as it was intended to, among a fairly small number of women...."

New York Magazine reports.

71 comments:

Bay Area Guy said...

Why does Leftwing Hollywood and Leftwing media sexually harass all these women?

rhhardin said...

Can you ask to be included.

Leslie Graves said...

If a man engaged in damaging sexual behaviors toward me, and I keep that to myself, am I complicit in the damage that he might perpetrate in the future on other women? That is a theme here today in the Wieseltier and Weinstein posts.

That thought weaves its way in here also, because what Madison Malone Kircher seems to be saying is that the "Shitty Men in Media" list was supposed to just be "a tool to help women to protect themselves from men they should avoid" and it was supposed to be "private, meant to be shared quietly and directly between women the way whispered warnings always have been" and it was only supposed to be circulated "among a fairly small number of women".

What this brings up is the picture of a small group of women (women who most likely have a lot in common) engaging to protect each other. They do not seem to be concerned about how to protect women outside of their "fairly small" circle.

Am I reading that correctly, or am I being uncharitable?

Gahrie said...

Am I reading that correctly, or am I being uncharitable?

It's how I read it.

Rob said...

To delve a little more deeply into the concept of complicity, let's consider whether any onus should attach to the women who allowed themselves to be used by these men. Did their complicity, and the rewards they accrued from it, operate to disadvantage those women who refused to comply? If everyone had said no, there would have been no alternative but to hire and promote women without regard to their willingness to engage in sexual escapades. The lecherous men were most guilty, but the women who did their bidding are not without fault. Perhaps we should shave their heads and march them through the streets, in the manner of France after the liberation.

Kathryn51 said...

Well, I haven't tried to locate a copy of the complete list but something tells me that if there was even one single name associated with Fox news, NYMag wouldn't hesitate to name him. But for now, of course, the list is to be shielded from polite company.

Ray said...

Nice dig at Cernovich. Accused of rape. Per him it was a false rape accusation and seems it was in the court system. Seems more like regret sex accusation.

Patrick said...

Ann, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this one:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/10/27/the-stories-sexual-harassment-beacon-hill-are-overwhelming/0a4T5VADqH9ffipiXfpwGO/story.html

Left Bank of the Charles said...

I read it as being worried about being sued for defamation. That’s why the app will be hosted in a country without libel or slander laws.

The Cracker Emcee Activist said...

Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. Someday an innocent man with deep pockets will be accused and legal hellfire will ensue.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Women don't lie about rape. The list must be accurate so:

FREE THE SHITTY MEDIA MEN LIST!!!!

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Yes, because "Shitty Media Men" is such a value-neutral title.

The gist of the NY piece is that, hey, we just wanted to warn "a small circle of women" in media privately, not let those nasty right-wingers get their dirty paw prints all over it. But why shouldn't all women, and all men for that matter, know who are the "shits"? Whoever leaked this document (Cernovich is likely not the only one) has done the rest of us a favor.

I eagerly await the sequel, "Shitty Media Women." Don't imagine there aren't any.

Achilles said...

The writer of that article is completely amoral. Power politics and disingenuousness are the core of progressive politics.

Jupiter said...

What's the big deal? Men have been sharing information about the women we fuck for years. We usually use the walls in the Men's Room. Don't freak out if you see a woman you're friends with.

Ray said...

Anything electronic you need to be ready for it to be published on the front page of The NY Times.

Nice deflection blaming the alt right for fanning this... the new boogeyman.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Bill, RofT,

Of course women lie about rape. To hear the discourse today, you'd think the Scottsboro Boys never happened. Or Emmett Till. Or, much closer to now, Crystal Mangum and "Jackie." Women lie about rape all the time. And we're told that it's only a "small" number of accusations, maybe 2-10%. People, in a country of 315 million people, that's a lot of false accusations.

Jupiter said...

Oh my God! This is too precious;

"The list has been weaponized for the online culture wars, and the women who created it, contributed to it, and were intended as its readers left totally powerless and voiceless as it’s used to undermine the industry in which they work."

Yes, indeed, women have been victimized again.

Achilles said...

"Am I reading that correctly, or am I being uncharitable?"

The writer of this article only wanted the right women to be able to know and protect themselves. The most important thing to her is protecting the political power of her tribe.

The world would be better if these people gained some basic morals and decency.

tcrosse said...

My take is that the list was intended to be private so as not to destroy the careers of the Shitty Men, thus making them of no further use to the womens' careers. Shitty they may be, but they can also help a girl up the slippery pole.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

HuffPo, BuzzFeed and Mother Jones must be a real snakepit if this list is accurate.

Goldenpause said...

Create and distribute a list that accuses men of sex offenses and say "take it with a grain of salt" and you have made a defamation engine. Whoever started this defamation engine should be sued into bankruptcy by someone the list falsely accused of rape.

Matthew Sablan said...

The black list wasn't meant to black list anyone. Swearsies.

Jupiter said...

"Whoever started this defamation engine should be sued into bankruptcy by someone the list falsely accused of rape."

Just as long as he has videos of himself never, ever raping anyone.

Sebastian said...

"Shitty Media Women." No: Slutty Media Women. Or better: Women Who Slept their Way to the Top. Or: Queens of the Couch.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Matthew Sablan said...

Isn't the advice if you see a man you're friends with don't freak out the very advice that lead to Halperin and Weinstein being open secrets?

bgates said...

Once upon a time, the highly and admittedly unreliable tool that Democrat ladies used to protect themselves from sexual assault was the Shitty Ethnicities List.

Bay Area Guy said...

The Left is crazy. On the one hand, they have all these rapey men. On the other hand, they have all these feminists who levy fake rape claims (Jackie from Rolling Stone, Mattress Girl, Duke Lacrosse, etc).

I have 3 bits of advice:

1. Avoid Leftist women, even the attractive ones.

2. Induce attractive, non-Leftist women to voluntarily sleep with you, so that all pussy-grabbin' is consensual.

3. Vote Trump in 2020.

William said...

You'd think that there would be a way to solve this problem. It's a a problem in other industries but not to anywhere the same extent. You get the sense that there are many, many people who don't truly want to solve the problem.

bgates said...

the anonymous, crowdsourced Google spreadsheet....was also private, meant to be shared quietly and directly between women

Weird how that didn't work.

Then again Hillary could quietly and directly share conversations about what size bribes she required over the internet and that stayed secret for years, so I can see why they thought it would work.

Michael K said...

"Someday an innocent man with deep pockets will be accused and legal hellfire will ensue."

It's already happening. The colleges are settling with an NDA for each one.

Eventually, they'll run out of money.

Matthew Sablan said...

What brave woman chose to end this culture of silence and name names like the brave Rose McGowan?

glenn said...

“I know something you don’t know and I’m not going to tell you. nanner, nanner, nanner “

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Rose McGowan. Isn't she the woman who "Sooper Feminist" lawyer Lisa Bloom offered the media a file on McGowan's sex life to discredit McGowan's claims against Weinstein.

What brave woman is willing to have a "Champion of Women" slut shame them in front of the whole world.

This culture of harassment in the media and Hollywood is much bigger than the men. The women who contented for their career, the media who refused to report, the women ready and willing to attack the accusers and the complicit others who "heard" someone was difficult to work with so went along with the blacklist if the women who refused.

YoungHegelian said...

Oh, sure, a Google spreadsheet. How could something like that ever get leaked to people outside the chosen circle....

Where do they find these people? At this point, the "Oh, you know how it is with girls & computers" jokes just write themselves. Has not a one of them ever sat through a corporate "Computer Security --- It's part of your job, too" presentations?

AReasonableMan said...

I guess Althouse has no interest in the recent indictments brought down by Robert Mueller. Mueller is a Republican so I assume that Althouse avoids mention of this investigation because it has been hopelessly tainted by partisan concerns.

Matthew Sablan said...

YH: I'm assuming that they wanted it to leak, like when the good guys in a kid's movie comically leave something out in the open they want the villain to find.

Zach said...

The internet turns a revolution into a reign of terror so quickly, nobody bothers to have the revolution.

Bay Area Guy said...

@ARM,

Look squirrel!

Matthew Sablan said...

Honestly, guys, I don't see why we feel the need to constantly point out when people cry squirrel or want to demand the Althouse blog cover something different. At this point, I think we should just ignore it. Being dragged off topic by the same people, for the same reasons, to talk about the same things gets old. If they want to talk about X, they can make their own blog.

tcrosse said...

I guess Althouse has no interest in the recent indictments brought down by Robert Mueller.

Last I looked they were still sealed. Pointless to speculate.

AReasonableMan said...

Bay Area Guy said...
Look squirrel!


Federal indictments related to a presidential election would appear to be the Mother of all Squirrels. I assume these are liberal evil doers, given Meuller's known partisan leanings.

Fabi said...

ARM complains about too many posts and too few posts. Some would say such behavior is rude.

Night Owl said...

"You'd think that there would be a way to solve this problem. It's a problem in other industries but not to anywhere the same extent. You get the sense that there are many, many people who don't truly want to solve the problem. "

Indeed.

As long as men and women are willing to play the sex for favors game, Harveys will be created who will prey on the unwilling. Those who willingly play that game and cover-up for predators to keep the game going share the blame for creating an atmosphere where rape and assault victims are afraid to speak out.

Will Hollywood change? Probably, as digital images replace actors, and the price of making movies drops, and salaries become more in line with that of other professions, chances are there will be fewer Harveys created.

But I doubt the Harvey problem will go away completely. It's called the oldest profession for a reason. But perhaps young people who don't want to sell their virtue to the highest bidder will become emboldened to make use of the laws that exist to protect them and punish offenders. If the #metoo campaign can generate that sort of awareness, and not simply devolve into a joke where senile old men in wheelchairs are lumped in the same category as Harvey Weinstein, it will have been worthwhile.

whitney said...

These people are the elites of the country? These people are so stupid and pathetic. Of course the list got out after 24 hours. Only an idiot would ever think that something like that would remain secret. I'm sure all these people consider themselves intellectuals. Here's my favorite definition of an intellectual. A person that follows a logical argument to it's absurd conclusion and then believes the conclusion. This is why people of good sense and reason no longer trust anyone in the media

Jonathan Graehl said...

Avoiding responsibility and pretending not to be selfish. Where have we seen this before?
The women involved in the creation+circulation of the 'suspected witch' list should own it. The false positives were a harm that they were willing to inflict.
I get what they wanted and why they wanted it to be as private as gossip (which is how private, exactly - surely they know). It may be they were righteously entitled to spread gossip+slander (the false positive rate was what exactly? And the early-warning value vs just observing bad men behaving badly and reacting organically?). But own it.

Laslo Spatula said...

The 'shitty media men' list makes it easier for those men to mark the contributing women off the 'slutty media women' list.

And, because it is appropriate: Daryl Hall & John Oates - Your Kiss Is On My List

I am Laslo.

Henry said...

That article is all about protecting the men on the list. Because the "new right wing" will use it against liberals. Where have we seen that before?

narciso said...

Just like focusing on manafort but leaving out downstream recipients of Russian cash like podesta group and mercury groups Von weber who actually did the lobbying.

narciso said...

Need York magazine could wrangle 50 witnesses against Crosby.

Derek Kite said...

AReasonableMan said...

What indictments? Has they been published yet? What are their names?

Is this a Democrat troll prepping the ground for bad news?

The Godfather said...

“If everyone had said no, there would have been no alternative but to hire and promote women without regard to their willingness to engage in sexual escapades.” That’s the classic “Prisoner’s Dilemma”, except instead of two prisoners, you have scores (or more) of ambitious women. If one of them used the list to discourage her competitors from shagging the boss, and then she shags him, she gets the job. Sisterhood is powerful, sure, but can you really trust your sister?

Suppose the bosses circulated a list of women who rejected an offer of a promotion or choice assignment in return for sex and then blabbed to the personnel director about it. That would be “a tool to help [bosses] to protect themselves from [women] they should avoid.” How benignly would we regard that tool?

Night Owl said...

"The list has been weaponized for the online culture wars, and the women who created it, contributed to it, and were intended as its readers left totally powerless and voiceless as it’s used to undermine the industry in which they work."

Oh dear lord, spare us the victim-speak!

"You could attack the list’s creators for not seeing this coming, or defend them by pointing out it’s not their fault that the list was leaked. But what’s the point? They’re not even part of the conversation anymore."

Says you. Can't they speak for themselves? Why are the women portrayed as powerless? Let me answer myself: Because the left loves creating victims.

Night Owl said...

I give these women credit for trying to do something. But it should've been apparent to anyone that something like this could easily turn into a powerful tool used for revenge, and they should've been leery of going down this path.

Is there a better way to share this info to other women? Maybe have a scale on it, 1 for ass-slapper to 10 for rapist? Or maybe no list, simply report the suspected rapists and sexual assaulters to the police and let them handle it. And learn to stand up to the ass-grabbers and lap-dance instructors.

Jonathan Graehl said...

There has never been a better time to profit from running a high-PR high-overhead "respecting girls+women more than anyone" charity that all the accused can pay tribute to.

David said...

Why confine it to Media? How about a list of "Shitty Men?"

And just for balance, one entitled "Sluts."

No secrecy. Open to everyone. Let's get this over with all at once.

Sacto_Dave said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sacto_Dave said...

What did they think would happen? This is the age of character assassination. It's what we do. I like David's comment above. How about a list of "Shitty Women". We can have sub-categories for gold diggers, cheaters, drunks, drug abusers, has a mean ex. I could go on.

Paco Wové said...

"...too many posts and too few posts. Some would say such behavior is rude."

Trolls are always the neediest of commenters.

tim in vermont said...

Just look around as you walk in ladies, if every female employee is hot, where the job is supposed to be about insight and literary talent, you can figure what the only talent they value from the ladies is

tim in vermont said...

When did Althouse become a public utility?

Phil 3:14 said...

"the far right have never encountered something they couldn’t refashion into a cudgel for their endless crusade. "

Self awareness is sadly sorely lacking

tim in vermont said...

"the far right have never encountered something they couldn’t refashion into a cudgel for their endless crusade. "

Well given that lefty hypocrisy creates such a target rich environment... But have they thought about their reaction to every little move or tweet by Trump? Naaah!

The Cracker Emcee Activist said...

I agree with your 1:11, Matthew, but cut-and-paste Leftists are such low-hanging fruit that the urge to pluck them is almost irresistible. Especially when they're clearly not very bright (like Inga) or live in a state of near-hysteria (like ARM). Unsporting, but good crack.

The Cracker Emcee Activist said...

More on topic, it occurs to me that, as the Right becomes both indifferent and impervious to whatever the Left says or does, then the only reactive targets remaining to the Left are other Leftists. Cookie will denounce TTR as a running-dog revanchist before Thanksgiving!

iqvoice said...

Well since no one has linked to shit list, I'll do this service.

https://sinkhole.in/shittymen.html

Also, Jupiter said "Oh my God! This is too precious..." I burst out into laughter when I got to that passage.

Achilles said...

David said...
Why confine it to Media? How about a list of "Shitty Men?"

And just for balance, one entitled "Sluts."

No secrecy. Open to everyone. Let's get this over with all at once.


Facebook.

Achilles said...

Derek Kite said...
AReasonableMan said...

What indictments? Has they been published yet? What are their names?

Is this a Democrat troll prepping the ground for bad news?


He is kind of an idiot who acts purposely ignorant of obvious truths in order to deflect conversations from topics that he can't deal with.

For example Muller is running a Stalinist investigation based on a fake report generated by collusion between the DNC, FBI, and Russia in order to attack political opponents of the DC swamp. He is gleeful at the success of the Stalinists who had there man and found a crime.

Mueller will be getting indicted himself soon because he committed actual crimes. And Comey and Hillary and a bunch of other criminals in the swamp as well.

MikeR said...

Sounds like a good idea to me. What's wrong with a bludgeon to attack men like that?

grackle said...

I guess Althouse has no interest in the recent indictments brought down by Robert Mueller.

The reason for the indictments is that Mueller has to draw attention away from his involvement in the Uranium One bribery/kickback scheme while he was head of the FBI. Otherwise he would have probably milked his “investigation” for another year or so.

Prediction: Evidence related to the FBI Uranium One investigation (which Mueller quashed) will mysteriously disappear.

Richard Dolan said...

Where is the Journolist team when you need them to change the day's narrative? Or is Journolist coterminous with shitty media men?

Caligula said...

It's unlawful for a politician to demand a bribe, BUT it's also unlawful for a citizen to offer a bribe.

This entire story is about demands for sexual services ("bribes") yet there is nothing at all about those who freely offer them . Yet both activities (demanding and offering) create a marketplace in such bribes in which those unwilling to bribe may be shut out.

Perhaps it's time to add a new tab to that spreadsheet?