October 1, 2017

Is forced prayer the answer to the National Anthem problem?

I'm watching the opening ceremony for the Ravens vs. Steelers game on TV right now because I wanted to see how they'd handle it. The plan was in place, with an announcer on the public address system saying:
Before the singing of the National Anthem, please join Ravens players and coaches and the entire Ravens organization to pray that we as a nation, embrace kindness, unity, equality, and justice for all Americans.
All the players shown on camera then took the position that we've seen players use in the protests during the National Anthem. So the position that meant protest was supposed to transform into meaning supplication toward God.

This was coercive prayer, and I don't know what kinds of religious-freedom objections the players and coaches and spectators might feel: Is there something wrong with using prayer this way, to fix a political (and commercial) problem?

The Ravens coach,  John Harbaugh — who is a vocal Catholic — made the sign of the cross, and I wondered if there were others whose religion impels them to pray in some special way that was not provided for here and still others who are nonbelievers and troubled by the burden of coerced prayer.

From the fans, I heard loud booing, which I interpret as calling bullshit on the instrumental use of religion to preserve the protest gesture they don't like. Management might have thought the prayer packaging would silence the crowd, lest they sound as though they are objecting to religion. Surely, religion will be respected. They thought wrong. Public displays of religion are often the insincere use of religion as a means to an end and sometimes it works, but it didn't work this time, judging by the boos.

But perhaps that was only a minority booing, the booers will be seen as disrespectful, and the pre-anthem kneeling in prayer will become the ongoing solution to the National Anthem problem. I kind of doubt that, because I associate political liberals with a longstanding objection to prayer before football games. Here, read what Linda Greenhouse wrote in the NYT about Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, the football prayer case. (Yes, this was about teenagers and public school, so there are big differences, but the point is that political liberals tend to have strong compunctions against coerced prayer and little sentimental empathy about football prayer.)

After the prayer at the Ravens game today, there was a particularly patriotic version of the National Anthem, complete with a call to "remove your hats as we honor our nation" and the "military who protect us" and a flyover A-10s — with fireworks — as the anthem — which was "written right here in Baltimore" — was sung in luscious harmony vocal trio from the US Air Force Heritage of America Band. The crowd in the stadium responded to all of that with great enthusiasm.

The players and coaches, of course, rose from the kneeling position before the anthem-related section of the opening ceremony began.

208 comments:

1 – 200 of 208   Newer›   Newest»
Quaestor said...

Did they face the flag, hold their helmets in the left hand, and place the right over the heart? That's what the NFL rulebook demands.

Michael K said...

The NFL is finally frightened at what is happening.

They are so stupid. What about Tim Tebow? What about the Dallas team being denied permission to honor the dead cops ?

It's not over.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Hahaha. They are scrambling to save face - by bringing religion into pre-game rituals? Yeah, that will work out so well for them. The Left will appreciate that.

tim in vermont said...

They think that they can substitute this retrograde troglodyte emotion for the other retrograde troglodyte emotion of love for country. Sure, whatever.

Ralph L said...

I heard there were a few fists in the air at the Browns/Bengals game.
Not going to end soon.

Humperdink said...

The booing fans saw it for what it was: Gotta get that kneeling crap in, somehow, someway.

Humperdink said...

I am boycotting the nfl (no caps) today and tomorrow. Taking a Sunday ride to go look at a used Trek bike.

hoyden said...

Kneel or stand they're anxious to get off the pot one way or another.

Achilles said...

The nfl is done. They listened to the media and the left. To this day the wealthy elite that control the left has not figured out what happened.

The silent majority is awake. We will not be stopped.

The NBA has a much more progressive international fan base and much more powerful players union and they told their players to stand. The NFL is run by idiots.

mockturtle said...

How many other bandaids will they try to apply to this gaping wound? Like many gaping wounds, it needs to be thoroughly cleaned out before it can be closed.

Bay Area Guy said...

"Before the singing of the National Anthem, please join Ravens players and coaches and the entire Ravens organization to pray that we as a nation, embrace kindness, unity, equality, and justice for all Americans."

Umm, No.

I believe in kindness, unity and justice, but certainly not equality for all, and neither do the Ravens.

If they did, I'd get as many snaps as Joe Flacco.

These folks keep digging. Just stand for the Anthem and shut the fuck up. If you want to protest or make a statement, do it on your own free time.

Will Cate said...

They (the NFL) are hoping that the moment-of-prayer thing is the beginning of the end of this mess. Next weekend it will probably be back to business-as-usual, as far as pre-game behavior goes. That's my prediction, anywho.

Humperdink said...

Now if they would have locked arms, while kneeling, with one fist in the air ..... wait a minute.

Fernandinande said...

I'm beginning to lose faith in the genetic freaks on steroids.

Quaestor said...
Did they face the flag, hold their helmets in the left hand, and place the right over the heart? That's what the NFL rulebook demands.


They took that out last year.

The Department of Defense paid NFL teams more than $5 million over four years to buy moments that honored troops.

Ray - SoCal said...

I thought the NFL had found a face saving solution on Thursday night, but more kneeling in London today? And this prayer attempt? Then kneeling at coin toss? The NFL is trying so hard to keep the unity meme. All they are doing is putting salt in a wound.

buwaya said...

They are a week late; I thought they would begin this stuff, the wholesale breaking out the flags and prayers, etc. last Sunday. And they certainly aren't all on board with damage control yet either.

The industry doesnt seem to have their ears on the ground sufficiently.

Tari said...

I only saw the beginning of the game, but here in Houston, the 2nd and 3rd decks of the stadium are half empty. I can't even tell you how odd that is. I know the Texans are not the greatest team in the NFL, but this is football, in Texas, in Houston, with JJ Watt. JJ Watt, who was popular enough before Hurricane Harvey, and who now could probably get elected mayor with 80% of the vote. The place where our rookie QB gave his first game day paycheck away to 3 cafeteria workers who lost their homes in the storm (covered on the local news, and the entire town said "awww" in unison last week). And yet, the seats where you know the people paid for them themselves (as opposed to the lower deck, where maybe 1/2 the crowd are sitting in corporate seats that were free to them) are half empty. Wow. Just wow.

Seeing Red said...

I don't think their definition of unity is my definition of unity.

And now they go against religious freedom. That First Amendment is really getting a workout lately.

buwaya said...

I think you will see even more absurd palliatives tried from next week on, to include the military marching on the field with flag ceremonies, Boy Scouts ditto, milutary aircraft flyovers, Police and Fire Department participation, and etc.

They may get quite desperate.

Seeing Red said...

Anheiser Busch has an 800 number taking opinions on if they should still continue to support the NFL.

Francisco D said...

The NFL is rightfully scared that their TV revenues will drop significantly the next time the agreements come up for negotiation. They are doing everything their public relations consultants are telling them to do. It's not enough.

The current drama will blow over as a few players start apologizing for disrespecting the flag and they forget what they are protesting against., if they ever really knew.

If you want American Blacks to be as successful as other minorities, protest the Black illegitimacy rate. Protest rich White lefties trying to convince Blacks to hate America. Protest the Democratic party keeping a large part of the Black population beholding to the State. Protest Lyndon Johnson for vastly increasing welfare dependency so, in his own words, N-----s will vote Democrat for the next 50 years.

However, pro football is increasingly boring with too many hoodlums as stars who never knew their fathers. The ratings will continue to decline.

rehajm said...

Those players kneeling they're uh....uh...PRAYING!...yeah, that's the ticket! Not at all a protest. Not at all...

Bill Peschel said...

Have to give them credit: If I had to think of six ways they would respond to defuse the situation, forced prayer wouldn't make my top ten.

But then, I don't hold Americans in as much contempt as they do.

Matt Sablan said...

It has a feeling of desperation. See! We like God too! Come back!

Original Mike said...

The only way out for the NFL is to stop digging.

rehajm said...

First 10 minutes of Pats-Cats in our house was Chip and Jojo...

Matt Sablan said...

I wonder if there are any atheists or non Christians who might sue.

M Jordan said...

Trump has exposed phonies everywhere, from the NFL to San Juan. These big, tough football players are having their crybaby tantrum by kneeling ...pathetic. If they really want to protest Trump, give America the finger during the anthem. Show some backbone.

Kneeling before the anthem. Weak.

Kevin said...

kindness, unity, equality, and justice

These words have lost their traditional meanings and have become the religious gods of the secular left. They are now meant to apply only to certain people, of certain races and genders, who think and believe certain thoughts. They are in no way meant to include any such obligation by people in those groups to people outside of them.

The fans who are upset by the NFL's abridging the traditional moment of unity aren't going to fall for the call to change it into an expression of shared intention by those now defining the terms.

tim in vermont said...

“In this era of hyper politicization -- which is being driven by the White House into everything from the Boy Scouts to the NFL -- there is no safe middle of the road.”. - Bloomberg

Talk about confirmation bias.

Yeah, it is Trump who started this whole cultural revolution thing, this whole "resist" movement instigated to polarize the country. It's Tump who invented identity politics and used them as a wedge. Pounding on that wedge, hammering it, week after week. A better answer would have been "Trump's legitimate election has driven so many Democrats insane, it has politicized everything from the NFL to the Boy Scouts, there is no safe middle ground."

Michael K said...

The reviews are starting to come in and it's ugly.

SCHIFFER: "I think the NFL is going to have to. And the -- the different teams, they overextend themselves to go after the president defined themselves. They then defined themselves on behalf of the players. And they alienated this significant swath of viewers that look at the NFL's move as a complete shot at them, a disrespect to the principles and heart of what they believe and certainly, patriotism. And so they're voting. They're going to vote in subscribership with DIRECTV and others. They're going to vote with their pocketbook. And they're making their voice very loud. And certainly advertisers, they have to be aware of this now and advertisers are much like anyone else, in partisan areas like this, it puts them in harm's way. So they're going to bail all which is bad for the NFL. It was the worst branding move of -- of modern history, in terms of sports, a really bad choice. And Goodell owns it. He made the decision to attack the president, and it was a bad choice."

It's not over.

Wince said...

Right now, every knee is a knee to the groin.

n.n said...

The activists made the wrong play, then fumbled the recovery.

Baby Lives Matter.

Francisco D said...

"I believe in kindness, unity and justice, but certainly not equality for all, and neither do the Ravens. If they did, I'd get as many snaps as Joe Flacco."

Bay Area Guy is on a roll today!!!

n.n said...

It seems that nothing short of a constitutional amendment to establish institutional diversity as the highest law of the land (a la South Africa), would satiate their voracious appetite for the blood and clumps of cells of Americans who survived the Civil War and their unPlanned Posterity. That is retributive change, not merely redistributive change.

Kevin said...

The media might be, but the fans aren't stupid. They know the league rules player behavior very strictly, and will flag, fine, and suspend players for over the top celebrations, wearing the wrong socks, and taking off one's helmet on the field.

The idea that it's beyond the league to keep its players from disrespecting the flag and the Anthem ceremony while standing in uniform on the field is a joke.

What's really going on here is the fans have come to realize the NFL owners care more about the game than they do their country. They have put the NFL logo and their business interests ahead of the flag and the country which supports them.

walter said...

The NFL has such a limited vocabulary to deal with this mess they're in.
Just re-arranging the chairs.

walter said...

I mean..beyond simply following/enforcing their own rules.

themightypuck said...

One of the most critical parts of diplomacy is finding a way to save face. This seems a tick in the direction of deescalation.

eddie willers said...

The only way out for the NFL is to stop digging.

Yes. Do it right from now on and hope for the best.

Riley said...

Trump's Presidency is entertaining beyond my wildest dreams!

Kevin said...

"It's been a rule as long as I've been involved with the league, and my expectation is that our players will continue to stand for the anthem," he said.

And NBA Commissioner Adam Silver throws the NFL under the bus. If the blackest league in US professional sports doesn't see mandating standing for the anthem as a racist move to restrict its players' civil rights, how can the NFL continue to hold that position?

Darrell said...

From the fans, I heard loud booing, which I interpret as calling bullshit on the instrumental use of religion to preserve the protest gesture they don't like.

You interpret wrongly. The fans are upset that the rules aren't being followed--hemet held at waist, right hand over heart as you face the flag. Any deviation smacks of protest.

rcocean said...

Damn these people are stupid. Just stop. Stand for the National anthem and push your Pet Cause before - or after - you get on the field.

All these left-wing players could speak to the press, send letters to the commissioner, go on twitter, write their congressman, picket city hall, etc.

And they could do it, 164 hours a week. Just stow the political activism for other 4 hours -when you're in the stadium playing the Game. But it seems that's too much to ask.

BTW, the cast of "Miss Saigon" has taken the knee. Emperor Trump was pleased.

Yancey Ward said...

Next week, they will ask the crowd to join them for shoe-tying.

Seriously, though- this is just another indication of how badly Trumped they were- when you are winning the argument, you don't have to do make a fool of yourself trying to save face.

Darrell said...

No NFL. Nevermore. RIP.

John Nowak said...

I suspect the sun's been setting on the NFL for some years now.

Trump put a torpedo into the sinking ship, knowing his critics would respond as predictably as Pavlov's dogs. And when it goes under -- which likely would have happened anyway -- Trump will be able to take credit.

n.n said...

The problem for the NFL is that they chose to become affiliated with the Pro-Choice Church (i.e. selective, unprincipled, and opportunistic), so that any gesture will necessarily be scrutinized for diverse and progressive ulterior motives.

rcocean said...

Of course, the typical "Moderate" RINO response is to surrender. Why not just rid of the national anthem, they cry.

Its like the RINO/Moderate response to taking down statues of General Lee. They said "give up", and most cities did. And now the SJW's are after Jefferson and Washington.

Never listen to "Life long Republicans" and "Moderates"

They're losers.

DTR said...

..."Protest Lyndon Johnson for vastly increasing welfare dependency so, in his own words, N-----s will vote Democrat for the next 50 years. "

The 50 years is up.

rhhardin said...

Public displays of religion are often the insincere use of religion as a means to an end

It's the same for public displays of patriotism.

Hannah Arendt: goodness that goes public turns into the worst sort of evil.

traditionalguy said...

Crossing your fingers while praying will be the ultimate fireable offense. We will need more video reviews.

George Grady said...

So the NFL has collectively decided that they can't, in good conscience, take three minutes out of their week to, if not show pride and respect, at least refrain from openly displaying disrespect to the country they live and work in, a country which, regardless of whatever faults it may have, has done as much as any in the history of the world to forward freedom, justice, and liberty. I fully acknowledge that they have the right to act like ungrateful jackasses, a right that many in their country have fought and some have died for. However, their refusal to similarly admit that their fans also have the right to call them out for their ingratitude and jackassery renders their position entirely unacceptable. This isn't going to go away until they finally admit that their actions are wholly inappropriate and sincerely apologize, and even then, it might now be too late.

rhhardin said...

Join us in praying that a mistake in your favor lessens your credit card debt.

Get some real sincerity in it.

Michael K said...

The NFL needs to learn a simple thing. Make your bed.

Start right and the day goes better. I doubt they will ever learn because those 300 pound pussies don;t make their beds.

rhhardin said...

Cheap grace doesn't come cheap in stadiums. They overcharge for everything.

rhhardin said...

I take a few minutes every week to disrepect the cheap-grace patriots.

Comanche Voter said...

They can stand on their heads and wiggle their hefty legs in the air. I'm still not watching another NFL game this season--or maybe ever. I don't want to see a player on his knee, I don't want to see a clenched fist waved in the air, and I sure as heck don't want to listen to some bozo announcer telling me (or suggesting) that I have to engage in some canned platitudinous prayer.

I am a lapsed Methodist. I left civilian churches long ago after seeing a truly obscene performance by a Lutheran minister at the funeral of one of my fraternity brothers who had died in Viet Nam. The minister (or should I say political activist) in question had been the friend's youth group pastor. My friend was his parent's only son--and the family including his younger sister were regular in their attendance at the church. When my friend came home in a box, the pastor conducted the funeral. His disgusting performance was the single cruelest act I have ever seen. The pastor didn't like the Viet Nam war; the young first lieutenant had taken three NVA .51 caliber slugs in the chest and face, and the parents were told not to open the coffin. Which I suppose was a good thing since the pastor consigned the contents of the coffin straight to Hell for having died in an unjust war. The pastor could not bring himself to offer comfort to the grieving parents and the family.

He wasn't too complimentary to the couple of hundred friends who had come to the funeral. Frankly, but for the fact that it would have made matters much much worse, the pastor in question was lucky that some of the brothers didn't take him out behind the church for an attitude adjustment after that performance. I left organized religion on that day; I don't need jerks like that to intermediate between me and my Maker.

tim in vermont said...

BTW, the cast of "Miss Saigon" has taken the knee. Emperor Trump was pleased.

I am sure they and their audiences went on their smartphones and bought the NFL Sunday Ticket right away, and season tickets too for those Sundays when there is no home game.

If you ever notice in a sports bar who is watching the TVs tuned to baseball? Unless it's the playoffs, it's old men. The NFL was headed in the same way, but they just kicked their key demographic in the teeth early.

rhhardin said...

Join us in praying that black people learn to honor reason and accountability.

#prayers that might work

rhhardin said...

God has learned that every time the people make a deal with him, they break it.

#God takes a knee

rhhardin said...

So many amusing things to pray for.

So many choices for a replaecment patriotic song.

rhhardin said...

I'd like to hear Faure's Clair de Lune sung, just because I like the song, and it's something of a test of the singer. The beat is implied rather than given, which is Faure's style. And the patriotic lyrics are great

Your soul is a delicate landscape
Where roam charming masks and bergamasques
Playing the lute and dancing and seeming almost
Sad under their whimsical disguises.
While singing in a minor key
Of victorious love and easy life
They don't seem to believe in their happiness
And their song mingles with the moonlight,
With the sad and beautiful moonlight,
Which makes the birds in the trees dream
And sob with ecstasy the water streams,
The great slim water streams among the marbles.

rhhardin said...

Let blacks claim that we don't live up to that.

Dude1394 said...

Kneeling is agreeing with the lies the BLM group have been trying to perpetuate. That the country is perpetually racist and that cops systematically target black people.

They CONTINUE to inject their own politics and now religion into this. STFU, stand for the anthem for a lousy 3 minutes and get on about your business.

Kevin said...

How bad does it have to get? Consider this:

Going forward, however, some owners preferred a league-wide directive. Dan Snyder, the Washington Redskins' owner and who declined to comment through a spokesman, argued that the protests needed to end because of the danger that the issue posed to the league's bottom line. A "$40 million" NFL sponsor was considering pulling out, he told his fellow owners. Snyder kept repeating "$40 million" to add emphasis, amusing a clique of owners who did the math and realized that, after the players' cut of the shared revenue, it amounted to considerably less than $1 million per club -- hardly a game-changing sum for a league that last year had an average per-team profit of $101 million.

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/20865444/inside-story-happened-players-took-control-nfl-national-anthem

eddie willers said...

it amounted to considerably less than $1 million per club -- hardly a game-changing sum for a league that last year had an average per-team profit of $101 million.


Have they never heard "Tip of the iceberg?"

Add another: "Pride goeth before a fall".

rhhardin said...

Prayers are anthems both fall into the stop milling arouind, pay attention and shut up category, which is the original idea that led to the anthem.

Prayers work better with mullah enforcers around, since Americans are trained to reject public prayer unless violence supports it.

Anthems still have self-appointed enforcers.

Hagar said...

The Left are not only againnst coerced prayer, they are against any prayer at all, so this should make for some interesting verbal gymnastics. But I am sure they will take that in stride.

rhhardin said...

School used to start with both a pledge and a prayer. Belt and suspenders.

rhhardin said...

I think the pledge was first, to get people quiet for the prayer.

rhhardin said...

Bible readings were from the Old Testament, so that nobody was offended.

rhhardin said...

Psalms usually. They're right-sized.

Song of Solomon never came up.

traditionalguy said...

The issue is not the poor old flag. It is 100% the Star Spangled Banner hymn that we sing out loud, and which infuriates the Globalists and their new friends among the rich American elite.

It celebrates a classic win over the British Navy. And the British Navy is the basic force that created the Globalist World Order that we took over running after WWII. And now the EU Globalists want their Empire and all its powers back through the UN's International Trade Treaties.

So on behalf of the NFL Billionaires Club, please quit sticking London in the eye. The new London NFL Team is coming and that is a big deal.

rhhardin said...

Now taking a knee for the 22nd psalm

buwaya said...

I was familiar with the Debussy Claire de Lune, but not Faure's piece.

Now listening to Veronique Gens singing. There is always something new! Even if its old.

Thanks!

Original Mike said...

Blogger Dude1394 said..."Kneeling is agreeing with the lies the BLM group have been trying to perpetuate. That the country is perpetually racist and that cops systematically target black people. "

Yep. Then they try and hide it with BS like "pray that we as a nation, embrace kindness, unity, equality, and justice for all Americans.", but people aren't stupid.

Unknown said...

I am not watching football today. I love sports. I am not the type of fan the NFL wants to lose because I like football. Social Justice Warriors really don't like football and they aren't the foundation upon which to build an audience, they just aren't.

I also stopped watching ESPN. Partly because I cut the cable but I used to listen to ESPN sports radio all the time but I gave up. I don't even use their web site. I do enjoy ESPN Films and their documentaries are very well done.

I think Roger Goodell is an idiot.

rhhardin said...

Charles Panzera probably has the best performance, but there are lots. Beautiful song.

David in Cal said...

Instead of a prayer, they could recite the Pledge of Allegiance, which does call for "liberty and justice for all." That will never happen.

Tank said...

The left ruins everything it touches.

Ken B said...

My opinion of the NFL and its players was low before the kneeling. It went lower still recently. Now, even lower. This is so transparent, and hence so disrespectful to the audience, that I wonder if the NFL has even a rudimentary understanding of their business. They don't sell virtue, they don't really even sell football except as an incidental . They sell *rooting for your team* . And no-one roots for guys who moon them or flip them the bird.

Jim at said...

They can do whatever the hell they want.

When I said I was done with the NFL, I meant it.

Seeing Red said...

And now the EU Globalists want their Empire and all its powers back through the UN's International Trade Treaties.


And US to pay for it.

Tank said...

Needs the civility bullshit tag.

Ray - SoCal said...

Browns stood for the anthem, but some players raised a fist.
https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2017/09/30/ohio-candidate-governor-cancels-20k-nfl-ad-buy-response-protests/

Achilles said...

rhhardin said...
I take a few minutes every week to disrepect the cheap-grace patriots.

I prefer cheap grace of nihilism.

Michael K said...

" I left organized religion on that day; I don't need jerks like that to intermediate between me and my Maker."

I didn't have quite that dramatic a lesson but the clergy has gone on an orgy of leftist dogma.

There is a book suggesting that it was gays taking over seminaries, but I'm not sure that was all of it. There are a few gay patriots.

It certainly contributed to the priest sex scandals.

Narayanan said...

@Trad ... Won't that be post-Brexit London? New tradition or back to tradition?

TWW said...

WHat they should be praying for is a watchable football game.

Paddy O said...

"embrace kindness, unity, equality, and justice"

Amen, now let's go out and beat each other up as much as we can in ruthless competition where we'll try to get away with as much rule breaking as possible, so that one team emerges as the victor and the other the loser.

Civil religion often works out this exact way, though rarely with this immediacy.

rhhardin said...

Feminist Hallmark Channel

Firefighter Jenny falls in love with Tom but his ex-wife and bestselling author Mary is demanding reconciliation or she will keep their daughter away from him at Christmas. With her natural grace and life-saving skills, Jenny starts to convince everyone that she's the better woman. But Mary's anger is relentless as one woman's pride battles another's true love.

Ann Althouse said...

“You interpret wrongly. The fans are upset that the rules aren't being followed--hemet held at waist, right hand over heart as you face the flag. Any deviation smacks of protest.”

That was before the anthem played.

For the record, during the anthem, all stood, most, but not all had hand on heart, and few had their helmets. I don’t know if hemet holding matters. I think what’s important is having head coverings removed.

I don’t think the fans concern is the following of rules. It’s showing respect for flag and country.

rhhardin said...

I prefer cheap grace of nihilism.

There are no nihilists with a sense of humor. They're worse than women.

rhhardin said...

I don’t think the fans concern is the following of rules. It’s showing respect for flag and country.

It's not showing respect. It's showing submission. As the fans do too, mostly.

Ray - SoCal said...

Budweiser 800 # collecting opinions on the anthem:

1-800-342-5283

rhhardin said...

Derrida

Of course, there are public prayers. And the first thing I will tell you is this : when I was young my first rebellion against my religious environment was to do with public prayer. So my way of praying, if I pray, is absolutely private. Even if I am in public, even if I am in a synagogue and praying with others, I know that my own prayer would be silent and secret, interrupting something in the community.

(a symposium at CUNY)

The anthem is like that only with no prayer.

rhhardin said...

A posture is needed expressing that this is all stupid in the first place.

rhhardin said...

What would happen if no civilians were interested in the flag in the first place.

Would there still be enforced anthems. Would nobody dare oppose them.

rhhardin said...

There's no outpourng of patriotic poems that I know of.

Nobody feels it the need.

It can't run too deep.

rhhardin said...

The patriotic song market is empty. Last instance the Green Berets, 60s.

John Nowak said...

>What would happen if no civilians were interested in the flag in the first place.

What would happen if the mentally ill could realize they shouldn't comment on things they can't comprehend?

rhhardin said...

Where are the patriotic-feeling people, otherwise than in sports events, where the claim is pretty easy and empty.

buwaya said...

Its not really about anything overt.
Its not about flags or anthems as such, these are only symbolically important. They represent things unconsciously, other than what they outwardly represent. They aren't what people say they are but what they feel they are.

This is not a phenomenon that can be manipulated or resolved through reason or argument.

It is about a shared hallucination or fantasy, in that that fans identify with a team for some irrational reason.
These are tribal feelings normal to humanity. Organized sports are an exploitation of natural instincts required for survival. The sports industry monetizes human instinct, just as pornography does.

The hallucination is broken when the teams stupidly let players indicate through symbolic acts that they are not in fact of the same tribe as the fans. Now there is doubt, and any assertion or use of symbols by the team will be filtered through doubt.

This can only be restored through some other profoundly symbolic act, which will probably have to be some form of that good old human standby, a human sacrifice. How that is going to be arranged I have no idea.

Quaestor said...

The patriotic song market is empty.

Just because there are no apples doesn't mean people do not long for pie.

rhhardin said...

Patriotism is lashing out.

rhhardin said...

Is there a tribe joined by a sense of humor. That's one to find.

It is about a shared hallucination or fantasy

I was going to say mass hallucination.

Namely that this is what patriotism is and how you identify it.

Patriotism would never have gotten a good name if that's what it was.

walter said...

rhhardin.
It's completely voluntary on the part of fans and simply a job rule for the players.
That the owners selectively enforce their own rules is ridiculous, but it is their right...as ii is the right for fans to be pissed about it.
Ultimately, it's the consumer that decides how this plays out..no government enforcement at all.

Vance said...

rhhardin, of course, would ban prayer and the pledge. He'd be horrified to attend a BYU sporting event, no doubt, where they have both a prayer and the pledge.

I've always wanted Cal to come play at BYU; just to force those socialist types to endure a prayer in public. Probably the only prayer they've ever heard, if they grew up in Berkeley.

But then, isn't public prayer evil? Just ask rrhardin, who apparently would ban all mentions of God unless in secret, hiding, from the leftist police who would throw you in jail for mentioning God in public. Unless it was Allah Akbar, naturally. He doesn't complain about that!

--Vance

rhhardin said...

Read Derrida's response above to the first question, probably starting around where the link points, about prayer. Derrida, an atheist, explains it better than anybody.

If public displays of patriotism are going to ever work, they'd have to be parasitic on something Derrida says about public prayer and postures. I don't offhand see it.

Darrell said...

Trump is to Chuck as the Flag and Patriotism is to Rhhardin.

Ken B said...

Wow. Now even Wall Street brokers are finding the NFL morally deficient! https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/10/01/now-wall-street-threatens-nfls-act/

What next? Spammers telling the NFL to clean up their act?

rhhardin said...

I'm aiming at the fans that think it makes sense. I don't care if they hold the ceremony, just that anybody buys into it as other than as ridiculous and empty.

Not so in the military, where it has a purpose in training, order and discipline. That it's empty is an important feature making it useful.

rhhardin said...

It does not matter what you do so long as you do it in this highly formalized way. Military.

rhhardin said...

It's completely voluntary on the part of fans and simply a job rule for the players.

It's voluntary only for the brave.

Ken B said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ken B said...

Hardin "There are no nihilists with a sense of humor"
There's you.

Quaestor said...

The disgust of the fans is complex and variegated. Firstly, they insist that the flag and the anthem be shown the reverence decades-old tradition expects. Secondly, they know all too well the origin of the knee-taking is completely specious and hypocritical. Any unbiased reading of the facts reveals that young black men are more endangered by other young black men than by police officers by a couple orders of magnitude at least. Lastly, they are outraged that semi-literate millionaires insist on lecturing the viewers who pay their entire salaries, directly by ticket sales, or indirectly by buying sponsors' products or paying local taxes with are often used to build and improve their stadia.

Howard said...

The hectoring of people refusing public prayer and patriotic displays comes from psychological weakness, not strength. If Gawd is really all powerful, it doesn't need prayers nor worship. Same same for SSB protests, the US is anti-fragile, therefore immune from slights or disrespect. Those of you cuck snowflakes getting triggered in your NFL safespaces are disrespecting our great nation because you act like goose stepping Stalinists, Col Kleb, if you will.

rhhardin said...

Just because there are no apples doesn't mean people do not long for pie.

Patty Griffin Making Pies

rhhardin said...

"There are no nihilists with a sense of humor"
There's you.


No nihilists see value in language.

Which is all convention, the basis of everything.

Just not every convention.

Sebastian said...

Wait, so the NFL thinks it's a good idea to use phony prayer to cover up disrespect to flag and country, and expects fans to let bygones be bygones?

rhhardin said...

The convention for refusing the national anthem is social sanctions. As we see.

That's not a good idea. They're there for football, not national anthems.

Go to a national anthem church and nobody will object, if that's what you want.

Patriotism is good but harder to identify than the crowd thinks. It turns up all over but who notices.

rhhardin said...

Disrespect to fake respect for flag and country is good.

rhhardin said...

If you find a largish sum of money on the street and search out the owner, a complete stranger, say from a pay stub, is that patriotic.

Respect for property, that's in the constitution.

Yet you get no flag points for it.

Quaestor said...

...Those of you cuck snowflakes getting triggered in your NFL safespaces [sic] are disrespecting our great nation because you act like goose stepping [sic] Stalinists, Col Kleb, if you will.

Thank you for the infallible analysis, Reichsminister Goebbels.

walter said...

The anthem is just a more convenient avenue to get their protest in front of people. Remove it entirely and they go back to mime circus.

rhhardin said...

Ordinary christian charity, thinking the best of people instead of the worst, gets you no flag points. It implies a lot of the constitution.

Humperdink said...

Re: The Anheuser Busch 800-342-5283 National Anthem hot line.

You must hit Option 1 after some verbiage. AB had to add the NFL option because irate NFL fans shut down their customer service line on Friday.

Keep digging NFL.

Quaestor said...

Disrespect to fake respect for flag and country is good.

Very facile, Hardin. But your premise rests on unknowable assumptions.

walter said...

Good luck on removing "social sanctions" from the public square.

Michael K said...

The hallucination is broken when the teams stupidly let players indicate through symbolic acts that they are not in fact of the same tribe as the fans.

I don't know that I would use that term. It is team spirit, which worked quite well at Seattle, for example, where there was a real benfit to playing there if you were the home team. Cheering and sentiment are more important to football than baseball, for example, which is largely individual effort. In golf emotion is actually counterproductive.

College football connects alumni to the school, which is why I have had season tickets to USC games since 1956 with a couple of timeouts for military. I have little connection to the undergraduate university where I am also an alumnus but it has swung hard left like most colleges. I still do have connection to the medical school that has nothing to do with sports.

As Missouri learned, it is not a good idea to dismiss alumni as they are useful when you need help on budgets and such, even at state schools.

The pro game has not interested me except to follow a few SC alumni in the pros.

rhhardin said...

"Disrespect to fake respect for flag and country is good."

Very facile, Hardin. But your premise rests on unknowable assumptions.


Facile factu. Easy to do.

The assumption is that fake respect is important to distinguish from real respect.

The latter deserves respect and the former does not.

rhhardin said...

What happens in the Japanese tea ceremony. A parallel or not. Civilian or military.

Ray - SoCal said...

Buyawa had a great point about tribalism. How fans felt they belonged to the same tribe. And how the NFL players have stomped all over this.

I view this as branding / identification. Similar to how people by wearing a shirt with Guess on it, or the playboy bunny signal, have some of that brand image / magic / ideals / emotions / feelings rub off of them. That is why the NFL tried the unity meme, which could not overcome Trumps flag patriotism meme.

buwaya said...

In the ancient world as well as modern war, at any rate since 1792, there is no clear distinction between the military and the people. There was such a thing for a little while, a millenium or so in Europe, created in part by the later Roman Empire and the Germanic upper class that took over from them. There was, usually, a separation of spheres.

But the ancient Cimbri and Teutones or the Arabs and Mongols in their conquering phase would have found the distinction incomprehensible. Or the Greeks, where every man was expected to serve as hoplite (even philosophers, Socrates for instance) or rower in the triremes. Rome itself too, its original Republican system was set up as a means to mobilize all of the people, and they did.

Likewise it didn't mean a thing to modern societies that mobilize themselves to a national effort in a period of total war. This was a moot point to the bombarded civilians in London or Hamburg or Tokyo.

Ultimately everyone is a warrior. The French just rediscovered that in 1792, and the lesson is occasionally re-taught to the unfortunate.

Ken B said...

Rhhardin
Imagine you live in a town where there was a school shooting. You go to a local team home game. They ask for a minute of silence in remembrance for yesterday's victims. Now maybe they shouldn't, maybe such memorials have no place at a sporting event, but the fact is they did. So there you are, not master of the universe, not able to set the agenda, faced with a minute of silence anyway. Do you sing Camptown Races for that minute? Yodel? Blow a kazoo and dance? Because forced silence is submission? I think normally courteous people are silent, even if they wouldn't have had the ceremony if it were up to them.

You're a yodeller are you?

buwaya said...

Humanity is a set of gangs of dangerous apes, gangs that hang together for rational reasons, but this group survival behavior is really driven by instinct.

You cant reason people into or out of patriotism. That comes from irrational sources. It is what it is.

rhhardin said...

It's not a matter or arguing people out of patriotism but out of fake patriotism.

The latter drives the former out.

Unknown said...

It was heartening to see the large majority of the fans putting their hands over their hearts, and not locking arms, at Lambeau on Thursday. But of course the media can soft pedal that by not showing it. And booing is easily dismissed as a loud minority, as our hostess points out. A fan boycott isn't going to happen with ticket prices what they are. IMHO, the best way for fans to voice their disgust with this leftist namby pamby bullshit is to mimic the Chicago Blackhawk anthem tradition, and belt it out at the top of their lungs. Kind of a giant FU to the BLM crowd, on the field and off.

rhhardin said...

There are interesting conventions, hard to notice, that are worth something.

The double yes.

Will you marry me

yes

but then she has to say yes to her own yes.

Analyzed as the double band in wedding rings.

rhhardin said...

It was heartening to see the large majority of the fans putting their hands over their hearts

or disheartening. Wrong battle.

rhhardin said...

Dying on the wrong hill.

Etienne said...

According to my Priest, if the person won't kneel, you can use your sword to decapitate him, his wife, his kids, and his dog. Then confiscate their property.

That's according to the Knights Templar code of conduct.

On another note, the reason prayer in school didn't work, is that the teachers felt they could punish you, and your peers could bully you. It led to violence.

Religion only works if you have a sword.

Seeing Red said...

Or acid.

buwaya said...

There is no such thing as fake patriotism. If the feeling exists, then thats what it is, for what its worth, good or bad. The reasons and expressions of this make no difference.
You can demand a certain form of expression all you like, but thats not going to make it happen.

Its a lot like seducing women come to think of it. What ought to work rarely does.

If a deliberate act fails to evoke the expected feeling, its not "fake" but simply a failure.

Aesop said...

Language has utility when it's used correctly.
There isn't a "national anthem problem": the national anthem works just fine, as it has ever since its official adoption in 1931.

What we have is a "disloyal, loutish football player problem", wherein certain slugs of less than keen wit and the manners of feral hogs have decided to self promote simultaneously their attention-whorishness, and self-serving virtue-signaling of their ignorant politics, amidst what's supposed to be a shared experience of national unity, and on both their employer's and patron's time and nickel, rather than on their own time and out of their own means.

Having settled that, no, forced faux-prayer is not the answer.

That's why fans have a visceral dislike of the original affront, and the new one, sloppily papered over with a faux religious exercise. The Baltimore Cravens have now managed to offend both nationalism and religion in one move. The wonder isn't that fans booed in droves, it's that they didn't storm the team management's offices with torches and pitchforks.

The League finding it's spine, and fining, suspending, and if necessary firing the turd-nuggets responsible for the misbehavior is the correct answer.
The iron law of economics is "What you subsidize, you get more of; what you tax, you get less of."

Stop feeding the pigeons, and put squab back on cafe menus, and keeping the statues in the park clean takes care of itself.

FullMoon said...

Any republican players taking a knee?

buwaya said...

We grew up praying in school, first thing, before each class, and at the end of the schoolday. And then we had mass sometime during the week (besides Sunday mass), prayers before each school function, and numerous saints days and other occasions.

This is training, it becomes a habit. Every instance is NOT reasoned.

Maybe there were doubters, but in all that time I recall no rebels. Maybe your lot were doing it wrong Etienne.

Howard said...

The World Champion Golden State Warriors played their first pre-season game last night. Everyone I could see stood and cheered during the SSB, as per usual. The biggest cheers come at red glare, bursting in air, free and brave. The Denver players locked arms and one cuck up in the rafters shouted epithets demanding hands on hearts.

Etienne said...

They should get some Nuns and some Burqa wearing Moslems to be cheer-leaders.

allahu akbar! Dieu est grand! Yo motherfuckers!

JackWayne said...

Some people don’t see the value in social norms that help bind people together in a social contract to form a nation. The opposite is multiculturalism which leads to the disintegration of the social contract. Choose.

Amadeus 48 said...

The NFL is trying to dig itself out of a hole that it dug for itself. Good luck with that.

It doesn't matter how they try to change it. Many fans view members of the teams going to one knee before, during, or after the national anthem as sympathy with Kaepernick, BLM, Michael Brown, Occupy Wall Street, Antifa, MSNBC, and an array of shadowy organizations that push a far left agenda, and they don't want it at the stadium. The NFL can have Rev. Ike ("You can't lose with the stuff I use!") lead prayers and the Bishop of Baltimore offer Holy Communion, but going to one knee is still part of a Soros-funded plot to overthrow America as far as some fans are concerned.

Sad.

Etienne said...

Maybe your lot were doing it wrong Etienne.

I was referring to public school. I had to go to public school because we couldn't afford the Catholic school past catechism.

Q. What is hell?
A. A place of dreadful and endless torment.
Q. You mean like - a football game?
A. No, worse than that.

Achilles said...

rhhardin said...
What would happen if no civilians were interested in the flag in the first place.

Would there still be enforced anthems. Would nobody dare oppose them.


The Veterans would probably conclude the country was full of a bunch of apathetic nihilists who weren't worth defending.

Without principles there is nothing to defend. Without symbols the principles are invisible. Without adherents and defenders principles are empty words.

Achilles said...

Sebastian said...
Wait, so the NFL thinks it's a good idea to use phony prayer to cover up disrespect to flag and country, and expects fans to let bygones be bygones?

I think they thought more of themselves than they are. They thought people would just take their crap and come groveling back after a week or so.

20 years ago the media had a monopoly on how this sort of thing was portrayed. Now not so much. A lot of these owners still think things will be ok.

Mark said...

we couldn't afford the Catholic school past catechism

Well that certainly dates you.

My parents could afford it, but did not past second grade. Meanwhile, in my mom's family -- a one-parent earner working class family struggling during the Depression -- was able to send all nine kids to Catholic school for all 13 years.

Ken B said...

In London today, respect for the British anthem, knees for the American anthem.

Mark said...

[The NFL] thought people would just take their crap and come groveling back after a week or so.

The NFL thought that people who paid mega-bucks to come watch football would not mind if they got lefty politics first.

They thought wrong.

Greg Hlatky said...

I am being asked to reflect on the travails of the Black community. By players who have spawned bastard children all across the country.

Bob Ellison said...

The big question is: why are so many rightist institutions embracing leftism?

ESPN, NFL, NBA, even West Point. What's going on?

A few possibilities:

1) They've gone insane.

2) They think there's money there.

3) It's a natural, inevitable evolution toward leftism.

Those three seem insufficient. Especially #2: the NFL is committing suicide.

What is going on?

Bob Ellison said...

#3, the natural, inevitable movement toward Marxism, is of course the Marxist philosophy. Leftists tend to believe in that. We're gonna go Marxist some day, so why not now?

That's what got Lenin and Mao in charge of places that even Marx would've said were not ready for his insane philosophy.

PJ said...

Best solution yet, but evidently not good enough. Keep backing up, NFL, and someday you'll get there.

Paddy O said...

"What is going on?"

Privilege guilt and power assertion. The privilege feel guilt so act in paternalistic ways to assuage their guilt, which involves asserting power over others, rather than actually changing the conditions that continues to bolster their privilege.

Paddy O said...

Responding out of inner guilt leads to idealistic kinds of rhetoric, they want to "feel" better about themselves. The corrupt take advantage of those who are driven by guilt, causing the guilt-filled to lash out against those who would dare dismiss the shame-rhetoric of the corrupt. Those who feel guilt want to not feel guilt as a driving motivator.

Responding out of love for others seeks real change for the conditions, no matter how that change best comes about or who can bring it. Those who love want the best for their neighbors and those who are suffering, and are willing to push against all societal conditions that embed corruption and perpetuate oppression.

Jupiter said...

What many here fail to consider is that the NFL is not in a position to force the players to stop being assholes. Kaepernick showed them that they can get away with it as long as they make it about race. So they have done so. And now, if the NFL tries to make them stop, that will be about race too. But if the NFL allows them to continue, as others have mentioned, that means the NFL is allowing them to publicly accuse the police of being racist murderers every Sunday at 3:00. Which is not what the fans paid to see.

They may manage to contain the thing for now, but some black criminal will get himself shot next week, that being what they do. And there we'll go again.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

" I had to go to public school because we couldn't afford the Catholic school past catechism."

My parents were blue collar and my mom didn't work. They sent 5 kids to Catholic grade school and high schools. My youngest sibling was born in 1964.

My brother and sister couldn't afford to send their children to Catholic schools past grade school.

The nuns that used to staff Catholic schools worked for almost nothing. Tuition went up when Catholic schools had to hire more lay teachers.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

" The biggest cheers come at red glare, bursting in air, free and brave. The Denver players locked arms and one cuck up in the rafters shouted epithets demanding hands on hearts."

The word "cuck," used in a political sense, does not mean what you think it means. In fact, it means the opposite of what you think it means.

gg6 said...

Is there a larger pack of phony, cynical, self-serving BS artists and prevaricators than the totally craven NFL 'management', owners and posturing players that engineered this preposterous and moronic shit-show?
They obviously think the public - which provides their income - is as dumb and crass as they are.
I only hope and pray - on my knees or otherwise - that their own such sins drive the entire NFL industry out of business and them back to a real Life of working for a salary they earn with work and not pompous, hypocritical hot-air time thrown in.
Ditto for any for-profit corporation that buys Ad time on these Festivals of Fakes. A pox on all of them.

Ken B said...

Bob Ellison
4 Twitter fear

I'm serious. Fear of a nasty tweet storm from the twitter-storm troopers of the left.

Etienne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gg6 said...

Blogger Jupiter said...
"What many here fail to consider is that the NFL is not in a position to force the players to stop being assholes."

Personally, jupiter, i cold not disagree more. The NFL absolutely IS in the'position' to do that, they simply are terrified about losing their revenue and incomes along with being called politically incorrect and "racist".
They themselves are a big part of the problem...they could have shut this down easily enough months ago with Kapaerwhatsisface.
They chickened out.

Martin said...

"How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg? Four. Saying that a tail is a leg doesn't make it a leg."
-Abraham Lincoln
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abrahamlin107482.html

Calling a political protest a prayer does not make it so, it just worsens the offense by adding a manipulative lie and the implicit confession to what they are already doing.

The answer to all this is so easy--the players, coaches, whomever can say or do whatever they wish on their own time, but time on the field belongs to the NFL, the owners and the teams, and the fans.

What they are doing forces the fans to take a side, and that is their purpose, to get people to go along with it and gradually define deviance down, as Moynihan put it in a different context. But, of course the fans are not stupid, they know what is going on and they won't have it--theychoose flag and country over a bunch of ignorant, brain-damaged jocks.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

FullMoon said...
Any republican players taking a knee?

10/1/17, 4:54 PM

Conservatives and the more intelligent players must realize this is a fiasco, but they are trapped. Imagine you are a QB who publicly says "this whole kneeling business is stupid." Congrats, you will now be branded as either a "white supremacist" or an Uncle Tom, depending on your race. Next Sunday, there will be 350 lb. men who will try with even more vigor than usual to sack your racist ass - and the guys on your team who should be protecting you? Where are they? It would be easy for players to break someone's arm or leg out there and just chalk up to the fact, that, hey, it's a rough game.

So much for the free speech Howard and other totalitarian bullies pretend to support.

Bob Ellison said...

Ken B, I hear you. The biggest thing on Twitter is Trump. Imagine being that person running Twitter: you're a leftist squirrel, and your biggest nut is the weirdo in the White House, posing as a Republican. Not a good job.

Michael K said...

The nuns that used to staff Catholic schools worked for almost nothing. Tuition went up when Catholic schools had to hire more lay teachers.

For this reason Catholic pastors decided schools were not important. They lost a lot of Catholics that way.

Back at the turn of the 19th century, priests built schools before churches. My Catholic parish in Chicago had a school in which the assembly room had been the church. The church was built about 1912.

The Catholic parish I lived in in Orange County had a fund raiser. I donated and found that the money went to Santa Ana to support illegal alien children. I told them if they wanted any more money, they should build a Catholic school.

I sent my kids to an Episcopal school in San Juan Capistrano started by an elderly Episcopal priest, The school was built by the parents.

My younger son, who graduated from that school attends a Methodist church.

gadfly said...

There can be no social justice derived from this idiocy as long as NFL Players submit 20-page requests for "Player Activism for Racial Equality and Criminal Justice Reform" citing problems such as:

Since 2016, police have shot over 300 men and women in this country. Some of the names and stories are familiar — Jordan Edwards, Trayvon Martin, Alton Sterling, but hundreds of others are not. Unarmed black people are five times as likely to be shot and killed as unarmed white people.

Surprisingly, "Big Mike" Brown's name was omitted and Trayvon Martin's non-police shooting was included. But all officers (and George Zimmerman) involved were cleared by the courts except for the officer that shot Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge who was fired but never charged by the Feds - and no mention was made of the fact that more unarmed blacks are far more likely to be killed by black criminals - and the stats are not even close. Then there was the murder of 5 innocent Dallas policemen shortly after the Baton Rouge and St. Paul shooting and these officers were brought together by senseless BLM protests.

This whole mess is nothing but political BS designed to make race relations go sour - and I wish I could be sure that Trump's motivation is not race related as well.

rhhardin said...

"Would there still be enforced anthems. Would nobody dare oppose them."

The Veterans would probably conclude the country was full of a bunch of apathetic nihilists who weren't worth defending.


The military use of the flag is completely different. It's meant to be empty just so that the prescribed movements can represent discipline.

Carrying that litmus test over to civilians is understandable but misguided.

Dionisio said...

Ken B said : "I wonder if the NFL has even a rudimentary understanding of their business. They don't sell virtue, they don't really even sell football except as an incidental . They sell *rooting for your team* . And no-one roots for guys who moon them or flip them the bird." In my opinion, best pragmatic comment of the chain. We don't watch because of generic good athletics - tackling, passing, running, blocking, etc. We watch because OUR team has convinced us that they are worth our allegiance. We respect them, they respect us (fanbase) and our city; and country. We believed. Many companies have gone under because they truly did not understand what they sold. Lots of other emotional and ethical issues involved in this, but this is the controlling business aspect.

wildswan said...

Incredibly interesting. THE nfl can't see - but why can't they see? In a way this weekend's display was worse than before because this was the nfl idea of a solution to the problem. Before, you had a situation that crept up on people, surprising them. They floundered. OK. Now, you have consultants (who are paid millions to solve PR problems) "solving" the problem of an insult to the flag and the soldiers with an insult to religion. Because the whole thing on the field was just using "prayer" to give the fans the finger in a disguised way. And the fans recognized it. And I've heard that the nfl doesn't care what the fans do because the clubs all have TV contracts that run for three or four more years and the players don't care because they have contracts with the clubs. It's the networks that will have to pay to make up for lost revenue. The networks will pay and pay because the black players believe that the police and soldiers are deliberately gunning down blacks and they are angry over it. And that is a lie the black players learned from the networks. What goes around, comes around. And - when the networks crash, nfl will find out that you can't hold people to contracts under radically changed circumstances - such as the networks having no money. But before the overpaid athletes get paycuts, the overpaid network anchors will take paycuts or maybe go off the air. But the whole crowd knows that won't happen because God himself could not sink the ship they're in. And if He did, President Hillary would dive in, swim under the ship and raise it.

Achilles said...

rhhardin said...
"Would there still be enforced anthems. Would nobody dare oppose them."

The Veterans would probably conclude the country was full of a bunch of apathetic nihilists who weren't worth defending.

The military use of the flag is completely different. It's meant to be empty just so that the prescribed movements can represent discipline.

Carrying that litmus test over to civilians is understandable but misguided.


So you display Complete and total ignorance of the military too. The flag is a symbol for the why not the how. But you don't have a why so what is the point of a how?

The world run by nihilists would not be much different and no better than a place run by international socialists.

Imagine a world without principles or morality or expectations...

Narayanan said...

Is it possible Trump's 'racism' is limited to telling 'them' what have you got to lose by supporting me?

rhhardin said...

So you display Complete and total ignorance of the military too. The flag is a symbol for the why not the how. But you don't have a why so what is the point of a how?

Flag etiquette, flag ceremony. There's no why in that. It's all how.

It's like a horoscope. The point is the rules.

rhhardin said...

The Marine standing at attention by the president's helicopter is not bursting with love of country. He's bursting with discipline.

Gk1 said...

Why is our military still providing flyovers for these fucks? As CNC Trump should put the kibosh on any more flyovers, Marine honor guards etc. for these clowns. They made their bed let them lay in it.

Quaestor said...

The Marine standing at attention by the president's helicopter is not bursting with love of country. He's bursting with discipline.

Another unsupportable claim drawn from the wilds of the unknowable.

Original Mike said...

"The Marine standing at attention by the president's helicopter is not bursting with love of country. He's bursting with discipline."

His love of country was evident when he enlisted.

Mr. Majestyk said...

Keep the flyovers. Just strafe anyone kneeling during the anthem.

Jim Gust said...

I've lost interest in football, but I have to admit that I have become interested in watching the NFL kill itself.

Don Surber has an interesting analysis of this.

SukieTawdry said...

How about this: They come out of the clubhouse, stand quietly during the National Anthem and then play football.

n.n said...

How about this: They come out of the clubhouse, stand quietly during the National Anthem and then play football.

Polite neutrality that acknowledges the full spectrum of moral, social, and historical causes. But what about the narrative?

n.n said...

Just strafe anyone kneeling during the anthem.

There is a hog that specializes in wart removal.

Achilles said...

Gk1 said...
Why is our military still providing flyovers for these fucks? As CNC Trump should put the kibosh on any more flyovers, Marine honor guards etc. for these clowns. They made their bed let them lay in it.

He should have their anti-trust exemption removed and their non-profit status removed.

Fritz said...

Ray said...
Budweiser 800 # collecting opinions on the anthem:


My opinion? Bud is almost as bad as the NFL.

Achilles said...

rhhardin said...
So you display Complete and total ignorance of the military too. The flag is a symbol for the why not the how. But you don't have a why so what is the point of a how?

Flag etiquette, flag ceremony. There's no why in that. It's all how.

It's like a horoscope. The point is the rules.


If all we did was march around and salute you might have something. But we don't risk our lives that much marching around and saluting.

It is the part where we go risk our lives you don't seem to get. Nihilism will have trouble explaining courage or honor. The flag and what it stands for is the why. Dissing that is dissing the why.

Howard said...

The military does not defend the people nor secure our constitutional rights, it is shipped over seas to effect political and economic goals for the elites. The sacrifices of all veterans over the last 70-years were all for nothing except for fighting for each other. Our engineers and factory workers defeated the Soviets. The CIA, FBI and TSA have limited further terror attacks. In fact, the misuse of the military has created ISIS and increased the terrorism in Europe. All of these tragic violent fuckups one after the other is a source of guilt and denial that prompts people to claim to speak for all veterans as a cudgel to suppress free speech and enforce blind patriotic compliance. It's a similar totalitarian mindset that libruls use when they force students into mandatory volunteerism.

Jim Gust said...

If the NFL owners are wondering how this will turn out, the Dixie Chicks provide a good example. Not entirely destroyed, but falling far, far below potential.

n.n said...

Nihilism will have trouble explaining courage or honor. The flag and what it stands for is the why.

Yes. As I recall, the first professional treatment of this topic was in Plato's Republic.

John Christopher said...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLANgRAUMAAmcF9.jpg

Kneeling like this seems completely respectful to me. I don't see what the big deal is.

Chris N said...

Maybe Derrida missed some things....not uncommon to North African French colonials gazing back at Paris. Even French patriots have a different set of relationships with the authority of both the old monarchy, the old aristocracy, the Church, the State, and the post-revolutionary Republic they serve.

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