Additional Trump tweets about the statues (without the hijacking GOP swastika image):
...can't change history, but you can learn from it. Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson - who's next, Washington, Jefferson? So foolish! Also...And:
...the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed and never able to be comparably replaced!
Posts
141 comments:
"Supporting racists makes you a racist"
Somebody doesn't like affirmative action, and realizes the Nazis kind-of invented it.
When does Twitter block Trump's use of its platform?
Can anyone deny the comparably replaced part?
Good article by Charles Cooke in the National Review about speech rights. One of the key paragraphs: Under the doctrine laid out by a unanimous Supreme Court in the seminal Brandenburg v. Ohio decision, incitement to imminent lawless action may in some circumstances be prosecuted. But this rule is universal and narrow, and, crucially, is in no way akin to the sort of “hate speech” exceptions that obtain in every other country, and that so many Americans seem to believe exist here too. Under U.S. law it is legal for a speaker to say broadly that “all the Jews should be killed” or that “it is time for a revolution,” or that “slavery is good,” and it is not legal for a speaker to say to a crowd, “let’s all go and kill that guy wearing the yarmulke,” or “meet me in an hour at the armory and we’ll start our insurrection at the Post Office,” or “look at that black guy over there in the blue t-shirt, let’s chain him to my car.” Who is saying these things, however, does not matter in the slightest. Whether one likes it or not, Brandenburg applies as much to neo-Nazis as to the Amish, as consistently to Old Testament preachers as to gay rights activists, and as broadly to my mother as to David Duke. It applies in exactly the same way to good people, to bad people, and to those in between.
LINK.
"It applies in exactly the same way to good people, to bad people, and to those in between."
Yeah, that's why the Left intends to get rid of it.
They thought they were on a roll. Then Hillary got schlonged, and now they resemble an ant hive that has been kicked open. Pretty funny, until a few of them crawl up your pants leg. Go ahead, try to reason with them.
It is hard to read Professor Althouse's parenthetical -- "without the hijacking GOP swastika image" -- not as either partisan politicking or misunderstanding twitter (and that disjunction is inclusive).
NB - Here I am not brandishing the sort of fetishizing of mistaken or mislocated definitions we saw a couple of days ago.
I think Trump is entirely correct. This tsunami of falling monuments is simply another way of instructing the rest of us to STFU! It's not that the rest of us particularly identifies with Confederate figures, it's just another way of saying "you're next!"
- Krumhorn
He did it again. He included the South in "our great country." That is a failure to express proper hatred of the demonized loser enemy nation. But the South doesn't care anymore.
We are too busy to hate. The rural KKK disappeared 40 years ago and the Neo Nazis are a small diseased population mostly in the Midwest. This is a tug of war between Northern Liberals still at war with the South and Northern liberals accepting the peace made with the south in 1900 being accused of voting against Hillary.
Krumhorn said...
I think Trump is entirely correct.
Given the statues in question, 'beauty' seems to be somewhat hyperbolic.
John Tuffnell said...
When does Twitter block Trump's use of its platform?
8/17/17, 11:35 AM
I wish they would, then he could move to gab, where freedom of speech is supported...
Thomas Jefferson is irreversibly linked to the Confederacy. Like Lee, Davis, and Forrest... Jefferson decided in favor of slavery.
People who are traumatized by the existence of Confederate statues have not suffered enough in life, but probably will.
The people who have learned nothing of history are the communists. This should be blindingly obvious. It has failed, again and again. Failing to produce a society that is prosperous and healthy, Communism has produced its opposite. The collapse of the USSR left behind nations that are poor and polluted, with most of their organic social institutions (marriage, family church) in shambles, because they were purposely destroyed by the communist state.
Supporting Communists Makes You a Communist.
The GOP should be about liberty. Let freedom ring. It rings with the sound of a monument honoring the Confederacy being loaded onto a flatbed truck.
It rings with the sound of a monument honoring the Confederacy being loaded onto a flatbed truck.
I have never seen or heard of a monument honoring the Confederacy, Freeman Hunt. Maybe you have?
"The Left is dictating to its opponents (Southerners) the statues it can and cannot have."
Plenty of Southerners hate these statues.
"The Left is dictating to its opponents (Southerners) the statues it can and cannot have."
So, out of area leftists are the ones removing these statues? And, it's locals who are waling down the street to have a lovely march w/ their fellow local very fine people.
Okay. Thanks Mr Bay Area for the local POV as you corrected the Fake News reports that had the story in Charlottesville completely backward.
In Atlanta we have our own Lion of Lucerne monument mourning Confederate unknown soldiers buried in Oakland Cemetery. Beauty depends on what model the Daughters of the Confederacy paid for.
The Left is dictating to its opponents (Southerners) the statues it can and cannot have.
In my opinion, the modern day Left is worse than the modern-day Neo-Nazis. They are power-mad, politically correct authoritarians. Trump is sometimes discordant, and discombulated with his remarks, but I am proud of him for standing up to the Left.
Here's a deal. I will denounce (with ease) Neo-Nazis, if the Left denounces Antifa.
How are Confederate monuments becoming a left-right issue? Why should Republicans honor the Confederate fight to maintain slavery? Opposing them was, perhaps, our greatest hour.
Logically, they cannot stop with removing Washington and Jefferson statues. Madison, Monroe, and Jackson will also have to go. And not just statues, but also all paintings, plaques, etc., and from all public places including the White House, the US Capitol, and various State properties. And, of course, the currency.
Also, certain elements of the GOP are absolutely terrified of being labelled as racist, so they overcompensate by hysterically denying it and, on occasion, going as far to denounce those who insufficiently denounce racism. Romney and Lindsey Graham (both presidential losers) are doing this re Charlottesville.
Infrastructure week is going well.
Freeman Hunt said...
"The GOP should be about liberty. Let freedom ring. It rings with the sound of a monument honoring the Confederacy being loaded onto a flatbed truck."
Yes, and the sound of anyone who doesn't like it being loaded into a cattlecar.
But don't worry Freeman. They'll take you last.
"How are Confederate monuments becoming a left-right issue? Why should Republicans honor the Confederate fight to maintain slavery?"
-- I'm fine with taking them down the right way. The crowds that pulled one down, and the Anonymous crowds that plan to tear more down, are not the right way to do it. I'd rather they be re-located to a museum or allow private collectors to purchase them from the government.
In Memphis we had an issue with the Nathan Bedford Forrest statue. Frankly I can't see the value in lionizing the man given his history at Ft Pillow and in the KKK. History matters but monuments typically are celebrations of exemplary people. In this case the statue was removed by after an orderly City Council vote and received only a modest protest. I never saw the point of holding men like that up as hero, not that that justifies vigilantes.
Defending free speech and deploying violence makes one a Nazi.
I am not letting anybody be the decider of what I can and can't hear without a fight.
Nobody seems to be shutting up the commies who killed and enslaved waay more people. I guess that looks like I am defending Nazis too. National Socialists and International Socialists can both go to hell.
"Why should Republicans honor the Confederate fight to maintain slavery?"
Maybe you should ask a Republican if he/she honors the confederate fight to maintain slavery?
Just a thought.
Deploring... Fucking autocorrect.
As I said in the ACLU thread, when the Nazis marched in Skokie in the '70's, WWII veterans who had actually fought and killed the original Nazis and knew exactly what they were capable of - were disgusted but did not rush down to Skokie en masse to protest. Perhaps some in the area went, but the reaction of most of them seems to have been what my father's reaction was: "what a bunch of assholes. But it's a free country."
It's a shame those dumb WWII vets were not as brave and enlightened as today's leftists. Unlike ARM and sunsong they had no idea what a threat those domestic Nazis were.
The more this goes on, the more the left is going to be hated. People that are sane are waking up to the craziness that is PROGRESSIVE....we are heading backwards...They don't want equality, they want to dominate.
exiledonmainstreet said...
Unlike ARM
I am apparently renting space in exile's head at the moment. I refuse to pay until you remove all the confederate statues cluttering up this joint. And, the blow-up doll of Hillary is just wrong, man. Just wrong.
Romney, who is, first and foremost, a venture capitalist, is scared shitless that the flow of cheap, exploitable labor will stop, cutting into his profits, but likely not his lifestyle.
I am taking names in this fight.
Blogger sparrow said...
In Memphis we had an issue with the Nathan Bedford Forrest statue."
I can't feel too bad about the removal of Forrest's statue, or Roger Taney's for that matter. But Lee? Or a statue honoring ordinary Confederate soldiers? That's a trickier question. And one that should be resolved by learning about the history of the era and the complex motivations of human beings. I don't have much sympathy for the Confederate cause as a whole, but anybody who has read up on the Civil War realizes Confederates were not all of a piece. But, history, like math, is hard for leftists. They've simplified matters by declaring all Confederates Nazis and all Trump voters Nazis.
History becomes a lot easier when you reduce it to a Manichean struggle. And in the Leftist version, they are always, always on the side of the angels.
"I'm fine with taking them down the right way. The crowds that pulled one down, and the Anonymous crowds that plan to tear more down, are not the right way to do it. I'd rather they be re-located to a museum or allow private collectors to purchase them from the government."
I agree. People ripping them down on their own should be prosecuted.
Why should Republicans honor the Confederate fight to maintain slavery? Opposing them was, perhaps, our greatest hour.
Two of my great uncles died in the Union Army in 1863. I am opposed to this destruction of statues of soldiers who fought honorably, even in a cause the=at was not righteous.
The Charlottesville thing began when a black, BLM supporting , Vice-Mayor began agitating to remove the Lee statue as a black power move.
Charlottesville Vice Mayor Wes Bellamy has been at the forefront of efforts to have the statue removed. He said the groups who protested this weekend were simply masking their hatred behind their apparent love of the statue.
“It needs to be removed expeditiously,” Bellamy said.
Bellamy has taken the lead on efforts to have the statue of Robert E. Lee removed and, as it holds up a poster with the name of Heather Heyer, who was killed when a car rammed into a group of protesters on Saturday, he is more steadfast than ever.
Is that how you want your country ruled ? By demagogues ?
And, the blow-up doll of Hillary is just wrong, man. Just wrong.
8/17/17, 12:16 PM
I would agree with that. Pass the word to CNN.
Thomas Jefferson is irreversibly linked to the Confederacy. Like Lee, Davis, and Forrest... Jefferson decided in favor of slavery.
Go back and read Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration of Independence.
"Maybe you should ask a Republican if he/she honors the confederate fight to maintain slavery?
Just a thought."
I did. I asked myself, and the answer was "no," and therefore I am in favor of removing monuments honoring the Confederacy which sought to maintain it.
the majority of confederate statues were erected from the late 19th century through the 1920's. they were not put up to preserve history but to white wash the actual history of the civil war at the height of jim crow and acts of terrorism from the kkk. you can't even say that the people chose to have these statues, because a lot of the people at that time were not allowed to vote.
How are Confederate monuments becoming a left-right issue?
Because conservatives believe in conserving history and Progressives believe in erasing history.
Why should Republicans honor the Confederate fight to maintain slavery
Preserving history does not mean endorsing what happened in history.
i'm sorry but there was not a single confederate soldier who fought honorably, unless he turned his guns on other confederates.
Does anyone remember Winston Smith's job in 1984?
Just saying.
I did. I asked myself, and the answer was "no," and therefore I am in favor of removing monuments honoring the Confederacy which sought to maintain it.
So Washington, Jefferson, Monroe, Madison, Lincoln et al all have to go also...right?
If you think they're not next you haven't been paying attention.
The Charlottesville thing began when a black, BLM supporting , Vice-Mayor began agitating to remove the Lee statue as a black power move.
Due to changing demographics, these monuments are often in political jurisdictions that are much more heavily populated by Blacks than they were when the monuments were erected and when the streets were named (Lake Calhoun in Minneapolis?). It is within the rights of the people who live in these areas to remove these monuments. That is democracy.
But getting incensed because people a thousand miles away have used their own money put up a statue honoring a person or cause you disapprove of can accurately be described as colonialism or totalitarianism, or some other bad thing.
i'm sorry but there was not a single confederate soldier who fought honorably, unless he turned his guns on other confederates.
Leftwing ignorance on display.
vicari valdez said...
the majority of confederate statues were erected from the late 19th century through the 1920's. they were not put up to preserve history but to white wash the actual history of the civil war at the height of jim crow and acts of terrorism from the kkk. you can't even say that the people chose to have these statues, because a lot of the people at that time were not allowed to vote.
This is a thoughtful post. I still disagree with their removal, largely for aesthetic reasons unrelated to history. Big ugly realist sculptures were a constant of civic life in my youth and I don't like change. Maybe some balancing sculptures could be added, a Malcolm X in every courtyard?
I did. I asked myself, and the answer was "no," and therefore I am in favor of removing monuments honoring the Confederacy which sought to maintain it.
I am at a loss, Freeman Hunt. Where are these monuments honoring the Confederacy?
@arm
that's a fine pov. i am not from charlottesville, so let the people who live there decide. seems like they already had made a decision before this nazi rally took place.
You want to know why, Freedom Hunt? Here's why: you leftists say, "Ban Confederate hate speech! Nazi Hate speech! Take down the statues!"
And some of use recall that the left is very imprecise on exactly who are the Nazis and confederates they want to ban. If you disagree with them, then you are a Nazi. And all Nazi's need to be punched, right?
I'm not going to wait until the left comes along and says that the Catholic Church is nothing but hate speech and thus needs to be banned, and hey, why not since you agreed to banning Nazis! The Catholic church is just as bad as them, so ban them! Or Mormons or Southern Baptists or whomever.
--Vance
In the Southeast, there still is a revisionism problem. There are people who claim the Civil War was about states' rights. I went to a museum in North Carolina that made that claim in nearly every display.
The crazy resides in the people ashamed. It's easy to be from New Jersey and say "my ancestors were correct about slavery!" while defending your right to shut down academic debate. An Alabamian has more trouble arguing that the Civil War was not mostly about slavery.
A Democrat should be applauded for the gymnastics he or she must deploy to argue that his/her party is not the seat of slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, the KKK, opposition to the Voting Rights Act, etc. That's really hard to pull off. And now they have to argue that they're the party of liberty, even when they try to shut down speech, opinion, and justice.
There were Confederates who fought to defend their homes, farm, and family, who never owned slaves. I am glad they lost, but blanket statements about good and evil are for the simple-minded.
vicari valdez said...
i'm sorry but there was not a single confederate soldier who fought honorably, unless he turned his guns on other confederates.
Again, I understand where you are coming from, but it is honorable and traditional to honor the war dead, especially those killed in such a horrific war as the Civil War. I agree that the statues have more to do with Jim Crow than the war itself but time has blunted that association to some degree. Mistakes were made.
the majority of confederate statues were erected from the late 19th century through the 1920's.
Ah! The era dominated by political progressives like TR and Wilson!
the people chose to have these statues, because a lot of the people at that time were not allowed to vote.
False history.
The death of Lincoln was a disaster for the South. Reconstruction was run by vengeful "Radical Republicans" like Stanton who blamed the entire South for the assassination.
The "carpetbaggers" and "Scalawags" descended on the South and ruined what was left. Sherman who avoided damaging common homes but burned plantation mansions if there was rebel activity against his troops, tried to negotiate with Johnston a fair peace in the manner that Lincoln wished. Stanton not only reversed these negotiations but slandered Sherman as a sympathizer. At the Grand Review in Washington City after the war, Sherman refused to shake Stanton's hand.
The Confederate soldiers took a vow of loyalty to the Union to regain their citizenship.
To have treated them all as "traitors" as some of you seem to wish would have left us with a divided country and the Confederacy would have won the battle of ideas, if not the military battles.
There were some, like Nathan Bedford Forrest, who while a great general and leader of men, was a "lost cause" advocate and founded the Ku Klux Klan. I have no problem with statues of him being relegated to museums or some other location.
What we are seeing now is a union of leftist and anarchist terrorists allied with BLM terrorists who want to destroy the civilization built by white men over centuries.
Among their looney allies are women who want "Feminist Math and Engineering."
The Second Law of Thermodynamics has not been repealed.
Civilization is not the default state of society. Syria is not a model. Nor is Venezuela.
" you can't even say that the people chose to have these statues, because a lot of the people at that time were not allowed to vote"
Well, then VV, those communities should vote on it now, and if they don't want them, they go. If they do, they stay.
Either way, it's not my business, or yours either, to dictate who the people of some town in Alabama that I will never visit should or should not honor. My own community has enough problems of its own and those problems will remain the same whether there is a statue of Longstreet in some southern city or not.
We've become a nation of Gladys Kravitzes endlessly poking our noses into our neighbor's business.
Yeah, ya know, as average poorly educated guy, I see this as extension of Hobby Lobby, Chick Fil Le, trans bathrooms, fake hate crimes, attack on people going to a trump speech. Same ol' thing, now with the statues as the specific target. Next month or six weeks, left will target some other specific. Haters have to have a target to hate.
Notice that most of the crowds against the statues are white people. Same people who show up at every protest. Each protest will have a core of true believers, who live for the fight, while most of the crowd, for or against gonna be people with nothing better to do.
Like I always say, you think left is non-violent, put a Trump bumper sticker on your car. Let us know what happens. Too cowardly to do that? Put a mask on, go out after dark,one decorate your neighbors car instead.
From Eric Arthur Blair:
"The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp."
"And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed -if all records told the same tale — then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. 'Reality control', they called it: in Newspeak, 'doublethink'."
"Within twenty years at the most, he reflected, the huge and simple question, 'Was life better before the Revolution than it is now?' would have ceased once and for all to be answerable. But in effect it was unanswerable even now, since the few scattered survivors from the ancient world were incapable of comparing one age with another. They remembered a million useless things, a quarrel with a workmate, a hunt for a lost bicycle pump, the expression on a long-dead sister's face, the swirls of dust on a windy morning seventy years ago: but all the relevant facts were outside the range of their vision. They were like the ant, which can see small objects but not large ones. And when memory failed and written records were falsified — when that happened, the claim of the Party to have improved the conditions of human life had got to be accepted, because there did not exist, and never again could exist, any standard against which it could be tested."
"But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."
How is the American Left today different then INGSOC?
vicari valdez said...
i'm sorry but there was not a single confederate soldier who fought honorably, unless he turned his guns on other confederates.z"
You've never read up on the Civil War, I take it. Or even watched Ken Burns' documentary about it. (And Burns is as lefty as they come.)
Nobody who has actually studied the period would say something so ignorant.
vicari valdez said...
i am not from charlottesville, so let the people who live there decide. seems like they already had made a decision before this nazi rally took place.
I also agree with this, ultimately the town residents get to make the call. I wish they hadn't and instead found a more creative way to deal with the very negative history. Maybe such a path doesn't exist and I am not sure the mood in the country would have allowed it even if it did, but I still think it was a mistake. I don't think it is pandering to Jim Crow to allow these statues to stand, but I can see how other people would see it differently.
black people were not allowed to vote in the south when people were putting up those statues. this is historical fact. the charlottesville statue is from the 1920's.
vicari valdez said...
black people were not allowed to vote in the south when people were putting up those statues. this is historical fact. the charlottesville statue is from the 1920's.
8/17/17, 12:44 PM
Did they vote recently to remove the statues, or did white people make the decision for them? More things change, more they remain the same.
vicari valdez said...
black people were not allowed to vote in the south when people were putting up those statues. this is historical fact. the charlottesville statue is from the 1920's"
yes, we know. So let them vote on it now.
The statue that plug ugly Commie was arrested for tearing down was a memorial to children who had been conscripted into the Confederate Army. But such small and insignificant details do not seem to matter to the Left.
"What we are seeing now is a union of leftist and anarchist terrorists allied with BLM terrorists who want to destroy the civilization built by white men over centuries."
Correct. They will seize upon any pretext, but they are only pretexts. Their intention is to establish that virtue is what they say it is, and all else is damnable vice. They go forth seeking whom they may devour.
"Preserving history does not mean endorsing what happened in history."
I agree. This is why we don't need monuments honoring the Confederacy. In fact, this is a good reason not to have them as they distort rather than preserve.
A brief review of his bio reveals that he evolved. He denounced the Klan and ordered it disbanded. He advocated for the advancement of Blacks and the defense of their rights. Isn't this what we all want? Evolution toward the good and noble?
vicari valdez said...
i'm sorry but there was not a single confederate soldier who fought honorably, unless he turned his guns on other confederates.
8/17/17, 12:29 PM
That is what you would do, right? Because you are honorable? You out there punching and spraying the bad guys, or more of a stay at home general? Must be a rally nearby where you can get out and earn your stripes, get physical instead of shootin' off your mouth. Do it, don't be a wimp. Kick some ass. Bleed a little for the cause. Feel the adrenaline high. Do it. You have nothing to fear but fear itself
I have ancestors who fought on the side of the Union and I have ancestors who fought on the side of the Confederacy. I guess I need to go through the old photo albums and remove all the pics of the ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. Anything less would be a full-throated endorsement of slavery.
Also, my surname is German in origin. True, my German ancestors emigrated to PA when Germany was a collection of provinces in the Holy Roman Empire, but I should change my last name, to do otherwise would be an endorsement of Nazism.
"you leftists say, "Ban Confederate hate speech! Nazi Hate speech! Take down the statues!""
No. I'm not a leftist, and I say, "Freedom of speech for all! Let's get rid of statues honoring traitorous Democrats who wanted to deny these freedoms to our citizens and keep these citizens in chains over the objections of Republicans."
"This is why we don't need monuments honoring the Confederacy."
Still waiting for Freeman Hunt to tell me where an American might find a monument to the Confederacy. If they don't exist, there's no problem, right?
@Freeman Hunt,
There's nothing wrong with removing the statutes -- it's a legitimate question.
But, it has to be done properly, not with riots and protests and false claims of racism, and masked Antifa thugs.
Some people want to, some people don't -- just vote on it and abide by the vote (I humbly say.)
In April 1865, Lincoln ordered the playing of DIXIE when celebrating the surrender of the South the day before.
He also said in his Second Inaugural that we would go forward with malice toward none, with charity for all.
He understood that the Civil War, precisely because it was a civil war, was the most tragic war we had fought or would fight, and that it was essential to make us one nation again, brothers.
But today we have the misnamed Antifas--misnamed because they are quintessential fascists--refusing to allow statues to stand, for heaven's sake.
Ann expresses surprise that we have these statues commemorating various Southerners, but they are at every Civil War battlefield, along with Northerners, to remind us that we are all one nation. That's why the National Park Service is not about to take them down.
The Antifas hark back to the anarchist-terrorist left of Europe of the 1970s: Baader Meinhof, Red Brigades, etc.--and to the Weather Underground of the 1960s U.S.
The neo-Nazis and the Klan are indeed hate-filled losers. I think most of us can recognize that. But whence this blindness about the Antifas, who are opposed to everything Lincoln stood for and this country stands for?
Sheesh.
I await the Left's attempt to persuade the French nation to get rid of all the monuments to Napoleon, that nasty warmongering fuck who restored slavery in the French Caribbean with great brutality.
I'm sorry, if there's anyone out there who sees the antebellum South as some paragon of historical evil, please start reading some history. You wanna see evil & death on an unimaginable scale on a regular basis? Read Chinese history. Twelve million dead Chinese & the largest land battles of the 19th C because some clown thought he was Jesus' brother.
Freeman Hunt takes common cause with the scorpion.
Good luck.
Freeman Hunt said...
"This is why we don't need monuments honoring the Confederacy. In fact, this is a good reason not to have them as they distort rather than preserve."
Distort? Are you suggesting that these wicked statues have descended upon us, whence no man can say, in order to confuse our minds into the delusion that the War had two sides, and neither one was wholly good or bad? Distort, hey. Yeah, don't want no statues distortin' round here!
I was just thinking yesterday that in short order, Freeman Hunt would be called a leftist. In the age of defending Trump f you don't hate lgbt, women, minorities, immigrants, poor people, disabled people, non-christians, etc. you are now a lefty.
Also, if you don't the play moral equivalence card discounting the evil US History of human trafficking and slavery of Africans, you are a lefty.
In the age of defending Trump f you don't hate lgbt, women, minorities, immigrants, poor people, disabled people, non-christians, etc. you are now a lefty.
8/17/17, 1:22 PM
Point to a comment here expressing hatred for those groups.
Nobody should confuse Freeman Hunt for a Leftist.
Nobody should be confused that the Leftists are so many scorpions.
Next, right wing Trump supporters erect monument to "good guy on wrong side" Benedict Arnold. How about the brave Japanese soldiers who attached Pearl Harbor or the Jihadist's who flew into the Twin Towers, Pentagon and that field in Pennsylvania? Surely they all should be honored because history.
Howard,
When you deny the depravity of the communists, what are we to make of you?
Scorpion, good catch-phrase. Easy for morons to swallow.
Birkel: You must mistake me to be your soon to be ex-husband whom you nag to death.
Harvard maintains the name of Admiral Yamamoto in Memorial Hall.
What will Leftists do?
Howard, you might learn something from Molly's comment at 1:04 PM.
The Left applauded when Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam. It's touching that you suddenly have such revulsion toward America's enemies. Your patriotism is normally not much on display.
I guess antifa will stop burning American flags at protests, right?
Plenty of Southerners hate these statues.
If that's the case, the proper way to get rid of them is to vote on the proposition that they be removed. Not to simply tear them down.
"I guess antifa will stop burning American flags at protests, right?"
-- They could compromise and burn Nazi flags.
... I think most people could get on board for that compromise.
The noble young soul arrested for bravely attacking a statue dedicated to children who were conscripted by the Confederate Army is on record as supporting North Korea and Maduro's regime.
Howard sheds a tear at the valor of such patriots.
oward said...
Birkel: You must mistake me to be your soon to be ex-husband whom you nag to death.
This is great. Yet it will be completely ineffective. Neither blunt nor sharp instrument impacts the impervious Birkel.
AGAIN:
Harvard maintains the name of Admiral Yamamoto in Memorial Hall.
What will Leftists do?
"There's nothing wrong with removing the statutes -- it's a legitimate question.
"But, it has to be done properly, not with riots and protests and false claims of racism, and masked Antifa thugs."
Agreed.
WAIT FOR IT:
Harvard maintains the names of graduates who died in the war fighting for the Confederate States in Memorial Hall.
Leftists?
"...has to be done..."
Optimistic and wrong. The word that should be used is should.
Howard said...
"How about the brave Japanese soldiers who attached Pearl Harbor or the Jihadist's who flew into the Twin Towers, Pentagon and that field in Pennsylvania? Surely they all should be honored because history."
All Howard asks is that we admit we are the evil descendants of evil men, Our history is nothing but a long litany of crimes, and we have no right to the least consideration from anyone. Once we agree with Howard on those simple and obvious points, we should all be able to get along just fine, right Howard?
Once all the Confederate statues are gone, what will be the justification for insulting all non-Christians by maintaining Ten Commandments monuments, city-council prayers and other god- and jesus-infested public religious prayers, anthems, and oaths throughout the land?
And will we finally let our Blacks, Browns and Reds into our national parks, forests, monuments and BLM lands?
Memorial Hall on the Harvard University campus will be attacked physically and rhetorically.
Who wants to wager?
Wager on the rhetorical sense only, btw.
"And, the blow-up doll of Hillary is just wrong, man. Just wrong."
That was a good one, ARM -- best chuckle of the day!
"Still waiting for Freeman Hunt to tell me where an American might find a monument to the Confederacy."
Any statue of a Confederate officer is a monument to the Confederacy.
Howard's 1:30pm question can be easily answered. Four years ago Americans were seriously discussing whether to add the names of the Japanese killed at Pearl Harbor to the Arizona memorial as a mark of respect (link). Their bodies were repatriated after the war, most likely because the Japanese wanted them buried at home. I don't know what came of the proposal, and it hardly matters. The linked article (first I've ever read at Breitbart - I thought they were supposed to be crazy extremists) also discusses efforts to find bodies of Japanese airmen and submariners still missing after all these years, to give them decent burial.
Remember when the local KKK called Atticus Finch a n* lover for defending a young man's right to due process? Who is Finch and who is the KKK here?
Remember when Hitler sent violent thugs called brownshirts to disrupt opposition rallies? Who does that resemble?
Remember when Hitler refused to accept the results of an election? Forced his way into power through direct action?
Who is really honoring Hitler and the KKK? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Howard is on a roll.
Outta here.
You cuck's can't handle the truth
I am sure that these guys are all for telling Merkel to fuck off any time Europe remembers the war, and the Japanese too.
It's not that these people hate war and desire peaceful co-existence,it's that they want to stick it to whomever they don't like, good and hard.
"Any statue of a Confederate officer is a monument to the Confederacy."
Isn't it possible that a monument to Rob't E. Lee could be for his several victories in the Mexican-American War?
@Molly: "we would go forward with malice toward none, with charity for all." But then, he was a sensible Republican who loved his country.
"that it was essential to make us one nation again, brothers." That was his problem right there--thinking those Southern evil-doers could and should be brothers.
"to remind us that we are all one nation." Time to shatter the illusion: one nation under prog rule, or no nation at all.
"Isn't it possible that a monument to Rob't E. Lee could be for his several victories in the Mexican-American War?"
Did any statues of Robert E. Lee exist prior the Civil War? If not, then it's unlikely.
Robert Cook,
So you think Memorial Hall at Harvard University means what?
Isn't it possible that a monument to Rob't E. Lee could be for his several victories in the Mexican-American War?
Here in the Southwest, that could be problematic, too. Someone may wish to re-fight that war, as well.
How are Confederate monuments becoming a left-right issue? Why should Republicans honor the Confederate fight to maintain slavery? Opposing them was, perhaps, our greatest hour.
I agree completely (as I invariable do with Freeman's comments here). I fall off the logic train when honoring Confederate generals, who were graduates of West Point, is the same as honoring their cause. As Scott Adams pointed out the other day, FDR imprisoned and impoverished over 100,000 Americans merely because of their race. Through the lens of hindsight and contemporary values, perhaps his monuments should be brought down. The same applies to Columbus and Jefferson. Jefferson actually owned slaves. Robert E. Lee didn't. While his uncle owned slaves, Stonewall Jackson didn't, and he taught one of those slaves to read. Columbus brought disease and conquest.
The Civil War was a horrible war that tore American families apart. Confederate figures were our fellow Americans, and it seems a bit arrogant to judge them harshly with contemporary values informed by over 150 years of social development later, when the laws at the time and our Constitution accepted the concept of slave ownership. It was a different world than ours today, and it is just wrong to destroy monuments that honor their place in our history.
If we cannot properly tolerate them today in our public spaces, there is no one whose place in history can be assured. Jefferson is already on the way out, and Freeman's logic would support him being kicked in the ass as his memorial is pulled down. This whole business is just the lefties telling us that we are next.
- Krumhorn
Jefferson actually owned slaves. Robert E. Lee didn't.
Wrong. He not only owned slaves, but treated them none too kindly:
Lee’s cruelty as a slavemaster was not confined to physical punishment. In Reading the Man, the historian Elizabeth Brown Pryor’s portrait of Lee through his writings, Pryor writes that “Lee ruptured the Washington and Custis tradition of respecting slave families,” by hiring them off to other plantations, and that “by 1860 he had broken up every family but one on the estate, some of whom had been together since Mount Vernon days.” The separation of slave families was one of the most unfathomably devastating aspects of slavery, and Pryor wrote that Lee’s slaves regarded him as “the worst man I ever see.”
The DNC is Pro-Choice. They advocate for [class] diversity (i.e. judgment of people by the "color of their skin"), not diversity (i.e. judgment of people by the content of their character). They are "=" or construct political congruences to grant and deny rights, selectively. They are advocates for elective abortion rites to deny life to the wholly innocent that are deemed unworthy, inconvenient, or profitable (e.g. Planned Parenthood's Mengele division). The DNC believes in redistributive change (the "Jews" clearly have too much). They have replaced the militant KKK with the militant Antifa. The neo-national socialists are embarrassing themselves.
The swastika superimposed on the GOP logo certainly explains to me the "fighting words" exception to the First Amendment. Thank you for the teachable moment, Professor.
So, the moral of the story is that [class] diversitists and abortionists should be given no quarter. They are evil to deny individual dignity, to deny lives deemed unworthy, and their Pro-Choice (i.e. selective, opportunistic, unprincipled) quasi-religious/moral convictions are informed by emanations from the twilight fringe.
re: twilight faith
The moral articles of faith or axioms are individual dignity and intrinsic value.
Moral, natural, and personal imperatives. Go forth and reconcile. Repent and sin no more.
This is a tug of war between Northern Liberals still at war with the South and Northern liberals accepting the peace made with the south in 1900 being accused of voting against Hillary.
Don't forget the rest of us deplorables. You know, the men and women who recognize individual dignity (i.e. diversity), intrinsic value (i.e. pro-life), and the Christian ideal of temperance and virtue.
LOL! It took a hundred and fifty years for our current batch of moronic progs to get woke. Think of it. All in ten days time they all got woke. For a hundred and fifty years we on the right have been giving each other the secret wink that says "they don't know about the statues, dude, are are too fucking dumb to be woke." Oh well.
He denounced the Klan and ordered it disbanded. He advocated for the advancement of Blacks and the defense of their rights. Isn't this what we all want? Evolution toward the good and noble?
Yes.
Any statue of a Confederate officer is a monument to the Confederacy.
No. The reason you don't explain why you believe this is because you cannot without emphasizing that you are simply making an assertion.
Yasukuni Shrine
As for monuments to the Confederacy, there are none. By the last year of the War the Richmond Government was hated by most southerners for its insane decisions and the terrible leadership of Jefferson Davis who was a silly prude. The monuments were done by old relatives of the dead men who wanted to make a visit to the Battlefields and see where their sons and husbands died like the opening scene in Saving Private Ryan was to people in the 1990s.
The KKK was a local vigilante force started to keep order in the 12 years after Surrender until Hays ended the Military Occupation of the South. The KKK ended when Reconstruction ended and local civil authorities could be resumed. General Forrest had said it was too violent and lawless.
20 years later, some Democratic politicians resurrected the KKK idea to form a political movement that reached its peak under Woodrow Wilson, a true racist. But that was all but ended by WWII when the southern men got a lesson in National service with Yankees. Democrat Truman then told the KKK to go to hell, as he always had in Missouri, and integrated the Military. Then he beat the Dixiecrats, the Socialists and the FDR Northern snobs, combined in 1948.
Only a PP symbol superimposed would be a greater insult.
Lincoln didn't sign the emancipation proclamation until January first, 1863.
Lincoln was objectively pro-slavery until he signed that document.
No better than a Nazi.
This means the GOP is the party of the Nazis Because they are the party of Lincoln.
Yep, ol' Honest Abe -- the first Republican candidate to be lected president -- would have let the Southerners keep their slaves rather than go to war with them.
Wrong. He not only owned slaves, but treated them none too kindly:
That's not at all clear. Lee was the executor of his father-in-law's estate which was reportedly in disarray. There is currently considerable debate among biographers about how those slaves were treated by Lee as executor.
Nonetheless, the arrogance of viewing historical figures through the lens of time with eyes that have been informed by the passage of historical time is beyond the pale. Who amongst us can honestly say that any of us would have viewed events of the time any differently than our neighbors had we lived then?
Who knows, perhaps sensibilities 150 years from now will be such that there is wide agreement that abortion is murder. What does that say about those today who advocate for abortion rights? I'm sure at the time, the idea of interning 120,000 Japanese seemed prudent. I don't recommend that we cover FDR's head on statues and beat him with baseball bats like a rented mule.
- Krumhorn
Krumhorn -- that is called "presentism," and it seems to be a uniquely modern phenomenon. Wy would wnyone who is exquisitely politically correct and on the side of the elites today think they would have been a rebel on the side of the poor and downtrodden a century ago? It's a matter of values, not reason. You can't reason yourself to believe that all men are created equal.
Good comment, Krumhorn.
I am not trying to judge, as another commenter objects. It's just so rare that I see historically reasonable comments these days, I like to compliment the commenter.
"Did any statues of Robert E. Lee exist prior the Civil War? If not, then it's unlikely."
It's interesting and probably not well known but Lincoln Illinois was named for Lincoln before he became president.
Lee had a distinguished career as an engineer and, among other thing, designed and built the St Louis waterfront so it was usable for commerce.
He was a great man who served a dishonorable cause but should be respected.
Oh no! A Michael K thread!
Somebody get me my nursemaid!
Freeman @ 1:00
Nicely done.
Way to go Trump. He is the only elected national leader willing to stand up to the rule by mob.
There were some, like Nathan Bedford Forrest, who while a great general and leader of men, was a "lost cause" advocate and founded the Ku Klux Klan. I have no problem with statues of him being relegated to museums or some other location.
Just shows that none of us are immune to believing all things the liberals tell us. Forrest became 'woke' late in life (as others on this thread acknowledge) but I will post his entire short speech for the record:
Here is the link where I found the copy, but a search will take you to a .pdf of actual photocopies of the newspaper where it was printed.
Nathan Bedford Forrest and Racial Reconciliation
In 1875 Forrest was invited to address a meeting of the Independent Order of Pole Bearers, an early black civil rights organization in Memphis, at their Fourth of July barbecue on July 5. Forrest was told by many whites that he should not accept, but Forrest went. Just before he spoke he was presented a bouquet of flowers by Miss Flora Lewis, a daughter of one of the members of the Pole Bearers. Here is Forrest’s speech.
“Ladies and Gentlemen, I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the Southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God’s earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. (Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man, to depress none.
(Applause.)
I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don’t propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I’ll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand.” (Prolonged applause.)
After the speech Forrest thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and kissed her on the cheek. This type of familiarity between the races in public was almost unheard of at the time. Forrest’s speech was probably motivated by his desire to become a Christian. As his health faltered and his time on Earth grew short, Forrest sought to make amends for some of his deeds, and I think this speech was part of his attempt. This speech was also the last appearance at a public event by Forrest as a speaker.
Isn't Washington, DC going to have to be renamed ?
When the President of the United States is discussing pigs blood, he is telling the world that Islam has taken the moral high ground.
I feel so sorry for his wife. She must curse the day she was born, to have married this terrible human.
@Krumhorn, you are right. Probably not about the specifics -- we humans seem bound and determined to practice abortion, and truth to tell safe abortion was always available to wealthy women. Main thing we've done in the 20th and 21st centuries was to extend safe abortion to poor women as well. Except for Kermit Gosnell, of course.
But yes, some day people will look back at beliefs devoutly held by Toothless, ARM, and others commenting here, and laugh themselves sick. They will treat those beliefs the way modern scientists treat beliefs in phlogiston or spontaneous generation. Surely they'll giggle at anthropogenic global warming as they fight off the encroachment of glaciers.
And the trashcan of history will include beliefs that you hold and beliefs that I hold, because that's how society evolves. I just hope we don't lose our last grip on things like honor, honesty, integrity, and valor. That would be sad.
When the President of the United States is discussing pigs blood
What the Hell is that all about?
Blogger Howard said...
"I was just thinking yesterday that in short order, Freeman Hunt would be called a leftist. In the age of defending Trump f you don't hate lgbt, women, minorities, immigrants, poor people, disabled people, non-christians, etc. you are now a lefty."
Freeman Hunt was swimming across a river and saw a scorpion stuck on a branch...
Big Mike said...What the Hell is that all about?
I guess he was telling the Spanish people to go out and kill Moslems with bullets dipped in pigs blood.
Should use hollow points filled with bacon grease.
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