August 18, 2017

"Violence directed at white nationalists only fuels their narrative of victimhood — of a hounded, soon-to-be-minority..."

"... who can’t exercise their rights to free speech without getting pummeled. It also probably helps them recruit. And more broadly, if violence against minorities is what you find repugnant in neo-Nazi rhetoric, then 'you are using the very force you’re trying to overcome'...."

From "How to Make Fun of Nazis," a NYT op-ed by Moises Velasquez-Manoff.

Quite aside from "their narrative of victimhood," there's their desire to be regarded as staunchly masculine and powerful. If you respond with fear and violence, you're reinforcing their self-image and helping them recruit more lost souls and losers.

But humor is hard. It takes some brains. Violence is easy.

ADDED: This post made me think about the courage it took to make fun of the real Nazis, in Germany, in the Nazi era, which was the subject of an August 9th post. Excerpt:
I found this article in Spiegel from 2006 about a book by Rudolph Herzog called "Heil Hitler, The Pig is Dead" (published in English as "Dead Funny: Telling Jokes in Hitler's Germany"). From the article:

Hitler visits a lunatic asylum. The patients give the Hitler salute. As he passes down the line he comes across a man who isn't saluting. 'Why aren't you saluting like the others?' Hitler barks. '“Mein Führer, I'm the nurse,' comes the answer. 'I'm not crazy!'

That joke may not be a screamer, but it was told quite openly along with many others about Hitler and his henchmen in the early years of the Third Reich, according to a new book on humor under the Nazis.

But by the end of the war, a joke could get you killed. A Berlin munitions worker, identified only as Marianne Elise K., was convicted of undermining the war effort 'through spiteful remarks' and executed in 1944 for telling this one:

Hitler and Göring are standing on top of Berlin's radio tower. Hitler says he wants to do something to cheer up the people of Berlin. 'Why don't you just jump?' suggests Göring.

190 comments:

MayBee said...

Exactly.

Who had ever heard of Richard Spencer before CNN dragged him into the spotlight to show what a racist Donald Trump is?

Ignore them. They are nothing.

AReasonableMan said...

Fascists killed in Charlottesville = 0
Charlottesville residents murdered = 1

Seem unambiguous who propagated the violence.

I don't disagree that the Fascists should be mocked but we should not ignore the fact that they are a breeding ground for domestic terrorists either.

Matthew Sablan said...

Hey. Look. Someone saying a thing that when the right said months ago.

Will they be called sympathizers to white nationalists?

Rusty said...

The real challenge is to paint TEA Party types as Nazis so they can beat the tar out of them.
Anybody else find ARMs crocodile tears over fascism ironic?
Also
Has there ever been an Ani-Fa march that hasn't involved property damage and personal injury?

David Begley said...

Where were these neo-Nazi losers a year ago? Why so quiet then? And why weren't all these CSA monuments removed during Obama's 8 years. Way easier to do than closing Gitmo.

Matthew Sablan said...

Antifa has only not killed anyone due to dumb luck. Throwing explosives at people, striking them in the head and splashing people with acid are all attempted murder. Dozens of people have been stabbed by antifa. People have been sucker punched.

Nazis are bad, but if you try and pretend antifa is nonviolent you're deliberately misrepresenting reality.

john mosby said...

When the left's response to humor it "that's not funny," it winds up unilaterally disarming itself from using humor as a weapon against its own enemies.

Quayle said...

There are many true and ravenous wolves in the forest - and many of them are well hidden in sheep's clothing - but the harsh condemnation of the President today is for not absolutely condemning a small collection of red ants in Charlottesville.

AReasonableMan said...

john mosby said...
it winds up unilaterally disarming itself from using humor as a weapon against its own enemies.


You apparently missed this seasons SNL or every late night comic or stand-up comic.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Okay, I'll provide the link Althouse is setting up:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/18/tina-fey-urges-americans-stay-home-from-neo-nazi-rallies-eat-a-sheet-cake-instead/?utm_term=.bfc93b5da7c3

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

BTW, althouse is right.

Mocking people makes you very effective re winning them to your POV. That's why I'm so popular at Meadehouse.

In fact this tactic works well in all relationships. I'd encourage spouses to mock each other. And, co-workers should mock each other.

Very effective persuasion technique.

Peggy needs to rewrite her piece that calls for love, what we need is ridicule.

Ha ha.

antiphone said...

Who had ever heard of Richard Spencer before CNN dragged him into the spotlight to show what a racist Donald Trump is?

I can't wait to hear how the fake news MSM is to blame for the bullets dipped in pigs blood thing. It's a thing, right, bullets dipped in pigs blood?

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

BTW, before too many of ya provide backup to the POV Althouse expressed here (i.e. using humor to get rid of Nazis), make sure ya explicitly carveout an exception for loser Mooooslims. Presumably thinking of them helps you understand that mocking folks may not be the silver (or pig blood) bullet that defeats them.

bgates said...

It's funny how often people choose names for themselves that are the polar opposite of their true nature.

"antifa"
"GoodPerson"
"AReasonableMan"

AReasonableMan said...

When you don't have a legitimate argument ....

john mosby said...

ARM, good point, maybe i should have said 'blunts' or 'defuses' its own use of humor rather than unilateral disarmament. As you point out, the left keeps flinging ridicule out there. However, it simultaneously tries to delegitimize any humor used against it. In the case of SNL, which used to poke at least some fun against its own heroes, it's banned even the silly, cute humor that could go the other way. The show used to do sympathetic parodies of Obama and Hillary, for example, but basically abandoned anything but sycophancy by midway thru the election.

So when it boils down to "we cool kids can make fun of you, but don't you dare ridicule us because that's racist/sexist/evil," ordinary people lose interest and it winds up delegitimizing humor as a useful part of the debate.

JSM

sparrow said...

"Fascists killed in Charlottesville = 0
Charlottesville residents murdered = 1

Seem unambiguous who propagated the violence."

Nonsense: the outcome is insufficient to deduce the origin of the violence. There's was provocation and over-reaction that led to the death: determining culpability it not such a simple matter. Snap judgements are easy but they are not "reasonable".

MayBee said...

I can't wait to hear how the fake news MSM is to blame for the bullets dipped in pigs blood thing. It's a thing, right, bullets dipped in pigs blood?

I will only say Trump did not mention it last night, even though its being reported he did.

AReasonableMan said...

sparrow said...
There's was provocation


LIke the illegal Friday night torch-lit march through grounds of UVa?

KittyM said...

I cannot believe that this comment section *still* has people "what about"-ing on the question of the violence of the Nazis in Charlottesville! Or that commenters are still trying to suggest that the provocation came from the counter-protesters and not from the *Nazis* carrying *weapons" and shields with Nazi insignia and chanting anti-semitic and racist phrases. What is wrong with your moral compass that you can look at that picture and say, Oh yes, it's those other guys over there who were the real problem?

And then, when AReasonableMan makes a simple and respectful and quiet point, the comments just get personal, rather than engage in the issue.

Baffled.

AReasonableMan said...

Thank you Kitty.

Ambrose said...

Of course the NYT also has a generally favorable article about violence on the left. They are "unafraid to scuffle with right-wing extremists." I don't think the neo-Nazis have ever been described by the NYT as "scuffling.'

Matthew Sablan said...

Stop gaslighting people Kitty and ARM. The counter protesters were also armed. Tapper has reported they attacked neutral journalists.

The man who ran people over is evil. But it is flat out wrong to pretend the counter protesters didn't show up to cause violence. That they were there for that is the stated reason Virginia tried to cancel the Nazis' permit.

KittyM said...

Professor Althouse, do you not see the strangeness in you giving advice on how to counter Nazis, when your blog (posts and commenters) has spent the past few days a) defending Trump's response as fair and reasonable, b) explaining how the problem really comes from the left c) just a moment ago, posting about how it's all not so bad.

If, as this post suggests, we are at a stage now where we should think about how to find a good response to the growing threat from home-grown Nazis, then that rather undermines your earlier post in which you say you find things "not so bad".

KittyM said...

@Matthew Saban. What do you mean by "stop gaslighting people"? Do you mean, stop posting my opinion in the comments?

Matthew Sablan said...

Google the definition.

Achilles said...

AReasonableMan said...
"When you don't have a legitimate argument ...."

You wave bloody shirts around and call all your political opponents racist Nazis. You might shoot up a softball game or try to burn a reporter while you are at it. Calling for the assasination of the sitting president is a good one.

rhhardin said...

I haven't heard any Nazi or white supremacist ideas yet from these demonstrators. Apparently they're like mental statues.

You don't hear them because they're too easy to mock. No threat.

rhhardin said...

Would a Robert E Lee scarecrow be okay. Just checking the slippery slope.

Quayle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Achilles said...

Blogger antiphone said...
Who had ever heard of Richard Spencer before CNN dragged him into the spotlight to show what a racist Donald Trump is?

"I can't wait to hear how the fake news MSM is to blame for the bullets dipped in pigs blood thing. It's a thing, right, bullets dipped in pigs blood?"

Since he never mentioned pigs blood and the only people who have are MSM types it would seem anyone with a room temperature IQ could figure that out.

Quayle said...

"What is wrong with your moral compass that you can look at that picture and say, Oh yes, it's those other guys over there who were the real problem"

KittyM, explain for us, please, how upholding our basic freedoms and respecting the law are a lack a moral compass or the equivalent to lacking compassion?

You show your compassion by destroying our freedoms and our democratically implemented laws, and I'll show my compassion by upholding our freedoms and respecting equality before the law.

My compassion when I seek to protect our constitutional freedoms isn't for the scum in this particular case, my compassion is for the truly good person who would get wrongfully crushed by their enemies without those freedoms, in the case in the future.

But apparently you'd weaken every law in America to get at the devil.

And where would you stand when the devil next turns on you, the laws being all gone?

tim in vermont said...

The amazing thing to me is the complete lack of a sense of irony in people support the documented brownshirt tactics of AntiFa, and claims that anybody who supports free speech right of America's citizenry is a Nazi.


Seem unambiguous who propagated the violence.

You want an argument, why don't you watch the video of the actual event, the running down of the antifa, it's available on-line.

http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_v93xxq9z

I'm not saying the guy was in any way shape or form justified in his actions, but to suggest that it is "unambiguous" who propagated the violence, when his car was instantly set upon by a large group of people ready armed with bats and clubs is utterly baseless.

There are two violent sides here. Neither one of them good for America.

Quayle said...

KittyM says: "growing threat from home-grown Nazis, "

How many true Nazis are there in our country of 323M?

Do you even know?

(A: Probably in terms of true threat about as many as there were witches in Salem, MA.)


Achilles said...

"What is wrong with your moral compass that you can look at that picture and say, Oh yes, it's those other guys over there who were the real problem? "

You mean the people with baseball bats flamethrowers and black masks facing off against white nationalists organized by Jason Kessler, the occupy protester and obama supporter who was on Hillary's payroll?

Yeah everyone there is a shithead.

MikeR said...

"Professor Althouse, do you not see the strangeness in you giving advice on how to counter Nazis, when your blog (posts and commenters) has spent the past few days a) defending Trump's response as fair and reasonable, b) explaining how the problem really comes from the left c) just a moment ago, posting about how it's all not so bad."
Well, it depends. Are white nationalists a major threat to our democracy - as Hitler and his brownshirts were? Then it would be right to rise up and oppose them, as the rest of us defend our freedoms. This is the narrative that much of the media wants to push.
Or, are they a trivial group of pathetic nobodies who can barely gather a few hundred followers if you ship them in from other states? This seems much more likely on the face of it. In that case, the best response is to scoff at them and then ignore them.
I have never met one. And speaking as someone who sees a lot of conservative websites daily, both pro- and anti-Trump, I can testify that I have never seen a single article by a white nationalist, and expect I never will. They live on some sub-reddit somewhere. Charles Murray is the closest I've come, and that isn't even remotely close.
Another reason to distrust mainstream media agitprop. They are either lying or deluded.

rhhardin said...

Jessie Leigh Peterson says it's all just another temporary reason for blacks to justify being angry. Being angry is their entire spiritual journey.

It's from their mother being angry at their father for being absent. The kids pick up the anger rather than forgiving their parents.

That eternal anger needs a target. The target changes from week to week, but it's always there.

The primary result of the great society.

Good character was big in the 50s then ended.

So the whole thing is a squirrel.

KittyM said...

@Qualye "But apparently you'd weaken every law in America to get at the devil." I know it's boring when two commenters get into a "that's not what I said" back-and-forth, but honestly, I never said anything that would lead you to believe that I would like to "weaken every law in America" or even that I would like to weaken or amend *any* law.

i didn't write that because I don't believe in that. I don't want to change any law in America.

If you believe in freedom of speech and believe that the law should uphold the freedom of speech even (especially) for unpleasant or offensive speech, then you and I agree 100 %!

exiledonmainstreet said...

The "growing threat from home-grown Nazis?"

Good God. The Charlottesville event was a big national call to action for them - and about 200 showed up. Out of 360 million people. That's a massive threat?

The neo-Nazis consist of a handful of losers. I'm far more concerned about the losers on the left who show up with baseball bats, balloons filled with urine, acid and and homemade flame throwers and mask themselves so they won't be identified. They are far more numerous and dangerous. And they showed up looking for a fight.

But of course, you wish to pretend they don't exist because they are targeting people you disapprove of.

rhhardin said...

You can't counter Nazis if you don't let them talk.

But the purpose in fronting them is to make them targets for anger, anger that will go elsewhere soon enough when that wears out.

Anger is the point.

Quayle said...

"Another reason to distrust mainstream media agitprop. They are either lying or deluded."

It is the old and well-worn political play book: "Look, there is a huge monster! But don't worry I'll save you from the monster."

It is the same divisive crap that all our politicians do, and the media makes money off the divisions and contention, so they have no reason to not play along.

It is all division and contention, stoked for personal gain.

tim in vermont said...

KittyM, explain for us, please, how upholding our basic freedoms and respecting the law are a lack a moral compass or the equivalent to lacking compassion?

That's what they are after, they want to get ride of free speech. I don't like Nazis even a little bit. My mother lived through Nazi occupation and my dad fought them in the war, and saw some horrible shit because of them. My wife and children are Jewish. One of the things my dad fought for was the right to free speech and peaceable assembly. I am not. giving that up because a small group of losers in Charlottesville threw a rally, and I am not letting people who support violence against Trump supporters, which we have also seen from AntiFa, decide what speech is allowed and not allowed.

The left want to be "deciders" of what can and cannot be said. Not letting that happen if I can help it.

AReasonableMan said...

KittyM said...
I cannot believe that this comment section *still* has people "what about"-ing on the question of the violence of the Nazis in Charlottesville! Or that commenters are still trying to suggest that the provocation came from the counter-protesters and not from the *Nazis* carrying *weapons" and shields with Nazi insignia and chanting anti-semitic and racist phrases. What is wrong with your moral compass that you can look at that picture and say, Oh yes, it's those other guys over there who were the real problem?


Partisanship is a very strong force, particularly in men, who want to feel like they belong on the team. You cede something of your individuality when identify so strongly with your own team.

rhhardin said...

Trump isn't angry enough at Nazis. He's angry instead at the actual problem, anger rituals so popular in the media.

There's your moral leadership.

Quayle said...

"Another reason to distrust mainstream media agitprop. They are either lying or deluded."

It is the old and well-worn political play book: "Look, there is a huge monster! But don't worry I'll save you from the monster."

It is the same divisive crap that all our politicians do, and the media makes money off the divisions and contention, so they have no reason to not play along.

It is all division and contention, stoked for personal gain.

jwl said...

Perhaps people would calm down if they knew that nazis were national socialists, just like Bernie Sanders is. And the most nazi like company is planned parenthood, where they engage in eugenics and vivisection. National socialist policies are quite popular with left wing Americans, I dont understand why they attacking nazis when they want same thing.

antiphone said...

Since he never mentioned pigs blood and the only people who have are MSM types it would seem anyone with a room temperature IQ could figure that out.

He campaigned on it

rhhardin said...

How to get black people to shape up is the question.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

KittyM said...

I cannot believe that this comment section *still* has people "what about"-ing

We will continue what-abouting as long as you keep promoting narratives that do not properly account for the illegal action taken by those on your side, and how they are responsible for a significant share of the violence that took place.

The murderer ( and anyone he conspired with in that murder, which was most likely no one ) is responsible for the murder. The right is not responsible for that, any more than the left is responsible for the five murdered Dallas police officers.

AReasonableMan said...

KittyM said...
i didn't write that


Attempting to reframe your argument as a straw man argument is a standard tactic here. Simply making shit up is not uncommon either. It is unfortunate that Althouse does not make more of an issue about these things, rather than worry about white space.

rhhardin said...

Pigs' blood, as Scott Adams says, is better being false because it makes it a must-cover media event. It takes up their shelf space, as he puts it.

Simultaneously it says to terrorists that Trump means to come down heavy so do your terrorism in some other country. God only knows what Trump is planning if he likes the pigs' blood story.

Now senators says Trump has lost his moral leadership right at the point he shows some. Deep state in deep delusion, to quote the Ancient Mariner.

rhhardin said...

I think that I shall never see
A statue lovely as a Lee.

A Lee whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the earth's sweet flowing breast;

A Lee that looks at God all day,
And lifts his leafy arms to pray;

A Lee that may in Summer wear
A nest of robins in his hair;

Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.

Statues are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a Lee.

exhelodrvr1 said...

"Growing threat from the homegrown Nazis"

Really, Kitty? How is that "growing threat" manifesting itself?

And is that more of a threat than the AntiFa movement? Or the Islamic terrorists? Or the movement towards sharia law in some communities? Or the unwillingness of our universities to tolerate free speech? Or black-on-black crime?

Please rate those threats in order of significance.

Michael K said...

Another blank profile says: "Baffled."

It's something that happens with ignorance,

Although in your case, I think it is in a script.

antiphone said...

How to get black people to shape up is the question.

You're a real genius aren't you, like an Einstein of humor.

Achilles said...

Blogger antiphone said...
Since he never mentioned pigs blood and the only people who have are MSM types it would seem anyone with a room temperature IQ could figure that out.

"He campaigned on it"

Ah so taking something he said a year ago makes it ok to lie about what he said yesterday. Good to know. But we already knew most leftists are willing to do anything for power.

You have a problem with bullets dipped in pigs blood? Or burying terrorists with pigs?


Ignorance is Bliss said...

KittyM said...

What is wrong with your moral compass that you can look at that picture and say, Oh yes, it's those other guys over there who were the real problem?

There is no moral equivalence between white supremacy and racial equality.
There is no legal difference between unprovoked violence against white supremacists by counter-protesters and unprovoked violence by white supremacists against counter-protesters. ( And no, marching, chanting, and carrying weapons, shields, or flags is not, legally, a provocation ).
I'm open to the argument that there is a moral difference between unprovoked violence against white supremacists by counter-protesters and unprovoked violence by white supremacists against counter-protesters. However, I'm pretty sure that such an argument would depend on an ends justify the means type of reasoning. Which would in turn depend on the proposition that unprovoked violence against the white supremacists would weaken them. I'm pretty confident it has the opposite effect.

Michael K said...

"It is unfortunate that Althouse does not make more of an issue about these things, rather than worry about white space. "

I agree. The amount of nonsense posted here by leftists is amazing.

rhhardin said...

Derbyshire has mentioned Richard Spencer. Without looking it up, Spencer I think thinks that whites ought to have their own country since people like to live with their own kind, a trend noticeable everywhere white and black.

It would be simpler to disarm the dysfunctional media rhetoric that keeps it going, rather than taking that choice as eternal truth.

Achilles said...

"Partisanship is a very strong force, particularly in men, who want to feel like they belong on the team. You cede something of your individuality when identify so strongly with your own team. "

How else would you be able to overlook the fact that Antifa is indistinguishable from the brown shirts in the 1930's or that the democrat party is openly calling for the assasination of the president?

KittyM said...

@MikeR Thank you for your thoughtful response (I don't get that a lot!).

"In that case, the best response is to scoff at them and then ignore them." I think I agree with you probably on this. I find it hard to believe that we are on the brink of a new Nazi regime in the USA. That seems unthinkable.

On the other hand, I have family who had tickets to Brazil out of Germany in the 1930s and didn't use them because it was unthinkable that it would get worse there, so...there's that.

But no, I don't think we are teetering on the brink of an authoritarian nightmare. So you and I agree on that, probably. However, I do think that there'r room for lots of bad outcomes between now and the nightmare scenario, if you see what I mean. There's room for horrible nasty individual violence. There's room for those shitheads to feel empowered and go out and beat up or kill someone.

I do believe in vigilance. We stop the nightmare scenario by making sure it never gets that far. By saying *as soon as* they pop their heads out: Stop! This is not American!

So i agree with your advice - " In that case, the best response is to scoff at them and then ignore them." - I applaud you for that. But the reason I am outraged this week is that this was not the response of the President of the United States! He didn't scoff. He didn't condemn. He suggested the Nazis were not all bad. He gave these guys a wink and a nod; he let them know they have his support; at least, he signalled that to them in a way that that was the message they received.

"I have never met one. And speaking as someone who sees a lot of conservative websites daily, both pro- and anti-Trump, I can testify that I have never seen a single article by a white nationalist, and expect I never will. They live on some sub-reddit somewhere." Bannon is a special adviser to the WH and that Stephen Miller is an adviser...these guys are close to white nationalists.

tim in vermont said...

Oh yes, it's those other guys over there who were the real problem?

Whatabout the attacks on peaceful Trump supporters by AntiFa using weapons prior to this stand melee? This is the first we heard of "Unite the Right" founded by a guy who used to support Occupy, Obama, and who said on his blog he had great admiration for "provocateurs." His big switch came in January of 2017, and he creates this tiny movement.

They are both the "real problem" If somebody shows up at a demonstration with weapons, which AntiFa did as well as the Nazis, they are part of the "real problem. As Trump said. You want AntiFa absolved, nobody is absolving the Nazis, you are fighting for the other part of the violence to be absolved. They side you support. You are not against violent protest, it would seem, but only violence by the side you don't support.

I don't support either of them. Trump doesn't support either of them. No US President should take the side of a group of people who show up at a demonstration with weapons, any side.

Here's a little. story about whataboutism.

Person A declares "There are no black swans."
Person B interjects "What about Australia?"
Person A harrumphs.

Person A declares "Swans are silent until their last moments of life, hence the term "swan song."
Person B says "What about trumpeter swans in Yellowstone?"

Person A grumbles, and then says:

This whataboutism has gone way to far!

Achilles said...

I would be remiss if I didn't mention that there are thousands of democrats out there saying it is ok to shoot republicans who support the NRA.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

KittyM said...

If, as this post suggests, we are at a stage now where we should think about how to find a good response to the growing threat from home-grown Nazis, then that rather undermines your earlier post in which you say you find things "not so bad".

The threat could be growing and still be not so bad. And I think the Professor's point is we should at least consider the possibility that the only reason it is growing is because of the tactics the left has chosen in response, including violence and depriving people of their Constitutional rights.

rhhardin said...

"How to get black people to shape up is the question."

You're a real genius aren't you, like an Einstein of humor.


"Be eternally angry" is not good for blacks. That's the only thing they've heard for 40 years, from "trust us" friends who profit from it.

These friends steal your $1000 TV and sell it for $10. I mean it wouldn't be so bad if they got $1000 for it but they're just showing they don't give a shit about you.

Washington works that way. Cause huge cash flows wasting everybody's savings and take a tiny fraction for themselves as a motive.

Similarly black anger. Huge damage, little profit but it's enough because who gives a shit about blacks.

Matthew Sablan said...

Honestly, I think "gaslighting" is an excellent reference for this.

We're being told, constantly, "antifa are nonviolent! They didn't show up to do violence! Only the right is violent!"

And a lot of people look at the reality of the world around them and ask, "But, what about-" only to be shouted down with: "What you're seeing isn't right!"

It's classic gaslighting.

tim in vermont said...

Bannon is a special adviser to the WH and that Stephen Miller is an adviser...these guys are close to white nationalists.

Or at least I heard that on SNL and Facebook so it must be true!

KittyM said...

@timinvermont "That's what they are after, they want to get ride of free speech." I don't want to get rid of free speech.

Laslo Spatula said...

If the Left keeps acting this way you will NOT get kinder, gentler Nazis.

I am Laslo.

Achilles said...

KittyM said...

"But the reason I am outraged this week is that this was not the response of the President of the United States! He didn't scoff. He didn't condemn. He suggested the Nazis were not all bad. He gave these guys a wink and a nod; he let them know they have his support; at least, he signalled that to them in a way that that was the message they received."

You can't have a reasonable discussion with someone like KittyM. That is a blatant lie.

Trump condemned them unequivocally 3 times and called racism evil. But You live in a different reality. One that makes it ok to hate those that disagree with you.

It is no wonder people in black masks with bats and flame throwers look just peachy to you.

Matthew Sablan said...

"I don't want to get rid of free speech."

-- Then you agree that Nazis should be able to march in Skokie.

Achilles said...

Blogger KittyM said...
"I don't want to get rid of free speech."

But antifa is ok somehow.

Ralph L said...

Where were the white nationalists during the Obama years? The dems all told us the normal right hated the color of his skin and not the feckless leftist under it.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Where were the white nationalists during the Obama years? "

-- We were frequently told they were part of the TEA Party.

Laslo Spatula said...

"Quite aside from "their narrative of victimhood," there's their desire to be regarded as staunchly masculine and powerful."

They all want to be aStreet Fighting Man.

You know: get your Ya-Yas out.

I am Laslo.

rhhardin said...

I myself have not condemned the Nazis. Scott Adams is a real coward on this.

I'd limit myself to humorous quips, but I need some material first. So far they're silent like statues.

KittyM said...

@Ignorance Is Bliss "...the Professor's point is we should at least consider the possibility that the only reason it is growing is because of the tactics the left has chosen in response, including violence and depriving people of their Constitutional rights."

Of course if is possible that certain responses for the left are unhelpful or counter-productive. But we still must be clear to place the primary responsibility for Nazi violence where it belongs, with the Nazis.

Who is being deprived of their Constitutional rights? I don't follow, sorry.

Matthew Sablan said...

"But we still must be clear to place the primary responsibility for Nazi violence where it belongs, with the Nazis."

-- Then you'll be willing to place the primary responsibility for Antifa violence on Antifa -- like attacking neutral journalists, right?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

KittyM said...

He suggested the Nazis were not all bad

Could you please provide the actual quote, and when he made it? A link would be best, but enough of the actual quote so that I could google it would be sufficient.

antiphone said...

Ah so taking something he said a year ago makes it ok to lie about what he said yesterday.

You said never, also your debate skills are extremely weak despite all the practice you put in. Try to take some time to think about what you write.

KittyM said...

@Achilles "But antifa is ok somehow."

Please please explain to me how this commenting section works. I get a ton of response from people like this one which "responds" to something I didn't write.

Please can you advise me as to how to engage here and get a response to my arguments and how to avoid receiving non-sequiturs like this one.

tim in vermont said...

Who is being deprived of their Constitutional rights? I don't follow, sorry

Even scum like the Nazis have a right to "peaceable assembly" and free speech. Showing up with weapons at a rally is not just "unhelpful," it's as bad as anything the Nazis could do. It's worse, actually, because the Nazis, despite what you may have heard on Facebook, have no real power in American, but the AntiFa have the support of the media and a large number of politicians, who excuse their violence.

The left needs these Nazis far more that the right does. Whose interest do they serve in the larger picture? Sorry, thinking is hard, I am sorry I asked you to think. It was stupid of me to ask somebody to think who believes that condemning violence and supporting free speech and peaceable assembly makes the crypto-Nazis.

Ralph L said...

My lefty sister told me they were chanting "Jew will not replace us!" Does anyone have a link to that with audio proof? Google didn't work for me.

Matthew Sablan said...

Kitty: It is not a non-sequitur. It is a response because Achilles point is that, yes, the Nazis are bad. But your comments, and others, continually refuse to acknowledge the year-plus long violence of Antifa, from Trump rallies to the day after the Charlottesville rally where several masked Antifa physically attacked a black man attempting to show unity with the people mourning the woman killed during the violence.

It is not a non-sequitur because you introduced the idea of antifa in your original post: "What is wrong with your moral compass that you can look at that picture and say, Oh yes, it's those other guys over there who were the real problem?"

Achilles is trying to show you *why* he thinks antifa is a problem. He's over-the-top, and way more aggressive than I am. But it isn't non-sequitur.

Achilles said...

Blogger Matthew Sablan said...

"-- Then you'll be willing to place the primary responsibility for Antifa violence on Antifa -- like attacking neutral journalists, right?"

Have they ever denounced ANY violence from the left?

The democrat senator who called for Trump's assasination is being called a patriot.

tim in vermont said...

I get a ton of response from people like this one which "responds" to something I didn't write.

You seemed to be upset that Trump condemned both sides. Sorry if we misread you. You don't have a problem with Trump saying that he condemned all sides and was waiting to get the facts on what really happened?

sunsong said...

Violence directed at white nationalists only fuels their narrative of victimhood — of a hounded, soon-to-be-minority..."

"... who can’t exercise their rights to free speech without getting pummeled. It also probably helps them recruit.


Let's apply that to ISIS and see if you still are absolute about the 1st Amendment...

rhhardin said...

Please please explain to me how this commenting section works. I get a ton of response from people like this one which "responds" to something I didn't write.

Ignore it and write something interesting or amusing. Each post is new.

The past record is there for anybody interested enough to look, which is nobody.

KittyM said...

Ignorance Is Bliss "Could you please provide the actual quote, and when he made it? A link would be best, but enough of the actual quote so that I could google it would be sufficient."

No problem! Here is the transcript of the whole press conference: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/15/full-text-trump-comments-white-supremacists-alt-left-transcript-241662

Example:

REPORTER: The neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville.

TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

tim in vermont said...

Kitty's problem is that she thinks in black and white. There is "THE PROBLEM" not, you know, like grown-ups would think, a LOT of problems in Charlottesville.

It makes it easier for her to understand stuff if she blocks out a lot of facts that just serve to confuse her. She's like ARM that way. Except she doesn't really seem as dim as he is.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"Bannon is a special adviser to the WH"

And find me one "white nationalist" article on Breitbart. You do know Andrew Breitbart was a Jew, don't you? And that David Horowitz has published articles there. And former editor Milo is half Jewish?

That's a funny sort of "white nationalism."

tim in vermont said...

Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

I know, it's easier when everything is black and white Kitty. Makes you feel more secure when you believe you understand stuff.

KittyM said...

Ralph L "My lefty sister told me they were chanting "Jew will not replace us!" Does anyone have a link to that with audio proof? Google didn't work for me."

No problem! Here is an article that discusses the video that captured this chanting, and the actual video is embedded in the article. I think it is HBO, but as I say, it's on this page.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/16/charlottesville-neo-nazis-vice-news-hbo

"On Tuesday, Donald Trump blamed “both sides” – the far-right marchers and those there to protest them – for the violence, adding that there were “very fine people” in both camps.
There is little evidence of that in the Vice film, however, which shows hundreds of right-wing ralliers marching with torches and chanting: “You will not replace us.”
Those chants swiftly make way for shouts of “Jews will not replace us”, and many of the right-wing protagonists continue to use racists slurs for Jewish people and African Americans throughout the video."

tim in vermont said...

And find me one "white nationalist" article on Breitbart. You do know Andrew Breitbart was a Jew, don't you? And that David Horowitz has published articles there. And former editor Milo is half Jewish?

Damn your whataboutism exiled!

rhhardin said...

TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

That's Trump giving people a chance to be their better selves.

It would be classed as Emersonian Perfectionism probably.

tim in vermont said...

Those chants swiftly make way for shouts of “Jews will not replace us”,

Yeah, there were a lot of scum at that rally, no doubt, on both sides.

LilyBart said...

This Antifa group is pretty ridiculous too.

KittyM said...

@tim in vermont "I know, it's easier when everything is black and white Kitty. Makes you feel more secure when you believe you understand stuff."

Not sure what your point is. I think life is complicated and full of grey areas. There are plenty of issues where my views are confused or blurry and I honestly do not feel that I understand everything.

But there are some things I have come to believe quite strongly over the years. Nazis are bad is one of those things. That the president of the United States should help bring the country together by providing a strong voice against Nazis is another.



rhhardin said...

Robots will not replace us would be a good chant, but it could be done more cheaply using robots.

tim in vermont said...

I guess instead of saying "what about" since the left has now declared that an invalid form of argument, we should say

"How does this fact affect your argument, and how does your moral principle apply in this case?" Seems kind of wordy, but maybe they can understand it better, being the apparent dim-wits that they are.

Achilles said...

Blogger KittyM said...
@Achilles "But antifa is ok somehow."

"Please please explain to me how this commenting section works. I get a ton of response from people like this one which "responds" to something I didn't write. "

On the same thread:

"What is wrong with your moral compass that you can look at that picture and say, Oh yes, it's those other guys over there who were the real problem?"

I could repost a much longer and more detailed post where you essentially call trump and all his supporters nazi's who are not American. But you are not here in good faith so meh.

"Bannon is a special adviser to the WH and that Stephen Miller is an adviser...these guys are close to white nationalists."

Well that's good enough for me!

KittyM said...

@rhhardin "That's Trump giving people a chance to be their better selves."

No. No, it's not. And it is hilarious that you think that. That is honestly the absolute BEST and funniest thing I have ever read on this blog!

I genuinely LOL-ed. Thank you for that. On that note, I am off to have breakfast!

rhhardin said...

Conversely, why would Jews replace us when Jews are paid more. You'd look for the cheapest labor, not the most expensive.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

KittyM said...

Who is being deprived of their Constitutional rights? I don't follow, sorry.

Then you need to diversify your sources of news. The Unite-the-Right attempted to hold a rally on Saturday. ( maybe you heard about this? ) The left attempted to prohibit this, they had to go to court ( with the support of the right-wing ACLU ) to get a judge's order allowing them to have the rally.

People from the left ( not even Antifa, just the "good people" left ) then attempted to prevent people from getting to the park where the rally was held, linking arm to block the roadway. This was not a defensive action, this was not in response to some violent provocation. This was for no other reason than to deprive them of their first amendment rights.

I don't claim to know who threw the first punch, the Alt-Right or the Antifa. From what I can tell, there were many first punches in many separate skirmishes. There are at least two documented cases of Antifa making unprovoked attacks against journalists, so it seems pretty inconceivable that they made no unprovoked attacks against the demonstrators.


tim in vermont said...

Nazis are bad is one of those things.

How do you know that every single person at the original demonstration was a Nazi? How do you know that some of them weren't there peacefully because they had honest differences? How do you know that Trump was applying his "fine people" to Nazis? How did you instantly have all of the facts so you didn't need to hear any more?

rhhardin said...

@rhhardin "That's Trump giving people a chance to be their better selves."

No. No, it's not. And it is hilarious that you think that. That is honestly the absolute BEST and funniest thing I have ever read on this blog!


I don't know, look into lit crit.

Cavell, "Conditions Handsome and Unhandsome: The Constitution of Emersonian Perfectionsim"

Small book, lots of good lines even if you can't follow this or that essay yet.

LilyBart said...

What does giving Antifa support and credibility for 'opposing bigotry and hate' do? Can't be good.

exiledonmainstreet said...

The whole idea that a president with a Jewish SIL, daughter and grandchildren has some sort of affinity for Nazis is incredibly ridiculous.

rhhardin said...

We will not replace Jews is true, if educational attainment comes into play.

Achilles said...

KittyM said...

"But there are some things I have come to believe quite strongly over the years. Nazis are bad is one of those things. That the president of the United States should help bring the country together by providing a strong voice against Nazis is another."

He called them evil among other things. You can't really get more unequivocal than he has .

The problem is there is a democrat supported group running around with black masks and weapons attacking people who disagree with democrats politically and Trump had the gall to condemn them too.

But it seems you are only against the racist part of nazism. The suppression of opposing political views by any means is A OK wth democrats.

bgates said...

For more than a decade I've been told that Islamic terrorism isn't that big a deal, since even 9/11 caused only a tenth as many deaths as happen on America's roads in a typical year.

This week I learned that Nazis are the biggest problem in the country because one was responsible for 0.003% of this year's roadway death toll.

rhhardin said...

Especially Ashkenazi Jews.

Howard said...

A. Schicklgruber was a jew also (he was so paranoid, he had a white-wash investigation of his fraternal granny), as was the Nazi enabler and antifa moneyman Georg Soros. It's no different that mostly Viking whites defeated white supremacist Nazis. Race or religion is no defense or excuse of behavior... unless you believe in jihad

Michael K said...

Kitty's problem is that she thinks in black and white. There is "THE PROBLEM" not, you know, like grown-ups would think, a LOT of problems in Charlottesville.

Blank Profile "KittyM" is following a script. Not thinking. A script.

AReasonableMan said...

'I'm not talking to the president after what he said about my child': Heather Heyer's mother hits out at President Trump's reaction to Charlottesville

"Susan Bro said she'll never forgive the president for equating her daughter and other counter-protesters with hate groups."

exiledonmainstreet said...

Mothers, of course, have "absolute moral authority." Unless, they are the mothers of those killed in Benghazi because of Hillary's incompetence.

We can ignore those mothers. They can't be used to suit the Left's purposes.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

KittyM said...

TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

This is clearly a case of Trump and the reporter talking past each other. The reporter is correct that Nazis showed up. I think Trump is unclear about the they he is referring to. There were plenty of Nazis who were very clear about who they were. However, I don't think that the entire rally in support of keeping the statue was billed as a Nazi or White Supremacist rally, at least not in all promotion of it. If not, then there is no reason to assume that everyone there was a White Supremacist.

Trump is very clear that there were some very bad people in that group ( the group of people who showed up at the rally. ) He also claims that there were some very fine people at the rally on the side of keeping the statue.

I don't know if that is factually correct or not. Do you know if it is factually correct?

Whether it is correct or not, the fact that he has to point out that they ( the rally as a whole ) was not put down as a Nazi rally makes it entirely clear that he believes that the group of fine people is distinct from the group of people intentionally showing up for a Nazi rally.

Please point out where I'm wrong, or provide a quote that supports your previous claim about what Trump said.

sunsong said...

Violence directed at white nationalists only fuels their narrative of victimhood — of a hounded, soon-to-be-minority..."

"... who can’t exercise their rights to free speech without getting pummeled. It also probably helps them recruit.


Let's apply that to ISIS and see if you still are absolute about the 1st Amendment...

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

ARM - you SHAMEFUL liar. Trump never called Heather or equated Heather with a hate group. He said some good people were there.


SHAMEFUL.

AReasonableMan said...

You are confused, as usual, that is a quote. I expressed no opinion.

Laslo Spatula said...

With chicks like this can Nazis be ALL bad?

Hawtschwitz

I am Laslo.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Heather's mom said "we are going to make this count." We = the media and the media's corrupt party.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

ARM - No you are confused. You attempt to score meaningless ideological points using other people's ignorance. You are no different that the hack press.

tim in vermont said...

Let's apply that to ISIS and see if you still are absolute about the 1st Amendment...

Yeah, I am absolutist about the first amendment, even in the case of ISIS. Mainly because I don't trust people like you to define "hate speech." I don't trust anybody for that matter to decide what I can and cannot hear.


"Susan Bro said she'll never forgive the president for equating her daughter and other counter-protesters with hate groups."

Nobody likes to think their child is in a hate group. The mother of the apparent murderer didn't think her son was part of a hate group either. AntiFa is a hate group, and it's not really fascism that they hate, they are more effectively fascist than the self-proclaimed Nazis. They are brownshirts for all intents and purposes.

n.n said...

So, alt-right is fascist, despite the American right being individualistic, and [alt-]left is national socialist, because they are collectivists with a Pro-Choice religious/moral philosophy.

Color supremacists vs color diversitists. Left vs Left.

rhhardin said...

Shame and honor meet in deference, if a thesaurus is to be believed.

tim in vermont said...

The left keeps presenting us with this false choice of National Socialism and International Socialism, as if we don't believe in our heart of hears that they are both ideologies employed by murderous scum to enslave nations.

Why do we have to chose? It's like telling me I had to pick sides in the Iran Iraq war. I prefer human freedom, whose greatest enemies are fascism and socialism/communism.

rhhardin said...

There's no discussion of antipathy speech or grudge speech. Those ought to be covered first.

Then there's emnity crime.

Laslo Spatula said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
exiledonmainstreet said...

"Let's apply that to ISIS and see if you still are absolute about the 1st Amendment..."

There are already people who sympathize with Islamic terrorism marching in the streets - like Linda Sarsour, the organizer of the Women's March. And yeah, they have a right to free speech.

However, ISIS is not big on speeches. They prefer bombs and guns and knives.

What part of "you can say what you like, but you don't get to be physically violent" do you not understand, sunsong?

Laslo Spatula said...

From the great Althouse archives:

Tom of Finland.

Some on the Left love Nazi Imagery, just not Nazis. I guess.

From Wiki:

"A controversial theme in his drawings was the erotic treatment of men in Nazi uniforms. They form a small part of his overall work, but the typically flattering visual treatment of these characters has led some viewers to infer sympathy or affinity for Nazism, and they have been omitted from most recent anthologies of his work."

I am Laslo.

exiledonmainstreet said...

sunsong, here are two of your "feminist heroes":

"The Brooklyn-born Sarsour, daughter of Palestinian immigrants, shared the dais Sunday with another darling of the feminist “resistance,” Rasmea Odeh — convicted in Israel of killing two Hebrew University students in a 1969 terrorist attack and of planning an attack on the British Consulate. After her release, Odeh was able to immigrate to the United States by hiding her crime. She’s now being deported to Jordan.

Odeh has become a leftist hero. Sunday night, she and Sarsour embraced, and Sarsour gushed to the audience about feeling “honored and privileged to be here in this space, and honored to be on this stage with Rasmea.”

It’s a curious embrace of terrorism and anti-Semitism from a recipient of a $500,000 taxpayer grant from Mayor de Blasio, as Sarsour’s group, the Arab American Association of New York, was last year. Sarsour, in fact, has been an important ally of de Blasio’s since his election — a role she’s sure to reprise in the mayor’s bid for a second term.

Sarsour said last month feminism is “about the rights of all women.” Yet in the same interview, when asked whether there’s “room for people who support the state of Israel” in the women’s movement, she said: “There can’t be in feminism.” Apparently, Sarsour doesn’t believe all women deserve equal rights — Israeli and Israel-supporting women are an exception. And, by her logic, since she isn’t for the rights of all women, she isn’t a feminist.

In a flattering interview with Ha’aretz, Sarsour advocated a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in which the Jewish state would no longer exist. And Sarsour once tweeted that “nothing is creepier than Zionism.” Meaning that her struggles, whether they’re for Palestinians or women, are just, but the Jewish liberation movement has no right to exist."

rhhardin said...

The trouble with replacing "We will not be replaced by Jews" chanters with robots is the capital cost.

Is this a one-time thing or will it happen over and over.

The minimum wage is another consideration. If they raise it, in go the robots.

sunsong said...

sunsong, here are two of your "feminist heroes"

LIAR

tim in vermont said...

You are confused, as usual, that is a quote. I expressed no opinion

Classic gaslighting. But ARM's definition of "confused" is that you are taking into account external facts that he either does not wish you to. consider, since they may muddy your thinking and lead you to an incorrect conclusion, or he is in such a bubble, that he himself is not aware of these facts.

ARM apparently doesn't believe in intertextualism. You know, the idea that the interpretation of every text is impacted by all of the other texts, otherwise, to what end would we be discussing this? He probably thinks he does, because it is a more sophisticated way to view the world, and he likes to think of himself as sophisticated, but his comments show otherwise.

Also, ARM, and I know it must be tough trying to hack through this stuff with such a purblind sensibility, but people take rhetorical stances here, It's part of the give and take, it isn't lying. If it seems to us that you implied something, given the whole context of the conversation, we will say it. You seem to want to restrict every discussion to precisely the words and facts that you wish to be considered and disavow any inferences or implications. If that is the case, what is the point of making the statement? It's gaslighting.

KittyM said...

@Achilles "I could repost a much longer and more detailed post where you essentially call trump and all his supporters nazi's who are not American. But you are not here in good faith so meh."

Again, as I said earlier, I know it is boring to go back and forth about who said what, but really, truly, honestly I have not essentially called trump and all his supporters nazi's who are not American. I really really haven' and I never would because that doesn't reflect my views.

Please tell me why you wrote that. Other commenters might read it without reading my actual comments and assume that is true (and then dismiss what I have to say, or be even more hostile towards me).

Really - an honest question - why did you write that when you know it's not true?

And I AM here in good faith. I want to engage respectfully with people whose views are different to my own and argue back and forth. I just don't know how to "prove" it other than by posting politely and trying to debate the issues, ignoring as best I can the "noise" of personal attacks.

rhhardin said...

"Whose street our street" chanters are an obvious target for wheeled or tracked robots.

Apparently the capital cost is worth it there since it goes on all the time.

It could go on all the time with robots, in fact.

Watch the traffic reports in your city.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"Yet in the same interview, when asked whether there’s “room for people who support the state of Israel” in the women’s movement, she said: “There can’t be in feminism.” Apparently, Sarsour doesn’t believe all women deserve equal rights — Israeli and Israel-supporting women are an exception"

Not ALL Jew-haters are bad, right, sunsong?

William said...

By what calculus are neo Nazis or KKK members a greater threat than the ISIS groupies?.....If it makes you feel better, I will unequivocally state that they are more evil than the anti-fa protesters, but there are more worrisome threats.....The anti-fa are white supremacists. They believe that any sniffle in the white community is more powerful than a raging epidemic among the Muslims.

tim in vermont said...

"you can say what you like, but you don't get to be physically violent" do you not understand, sunsong?

All of it.

tim in vermont said...

AntiFA (Anti-First Amendment) are White-Left Supremacists.

rhhardin said...

Vicki Hearne cites Thurber's mother Mame as a feminist hero.

...Fortunately Thruber himself is to hand, with his wonderfully combative, aggressive, competitive women. I just reach onto my bookshelf and open Thurber's Dogs at random. I find the piece ``Canines in the Cellar,'' a tale about one of Thurber's role models, his mother. The occasion is an impending visit from Aunt Mary, whom our heroine, Mame Thurber, dislikes and does not nourish. Aunt Mary in her turn hates the Thurber family's beloved dogs.

...my mother had spend the afternoon gathering up all the dogs of the neighborhood, in advance of Aunt Mary's appearance, and putting them in the cellar. I had been allowed to go with her on her wonderful forays, and I thought that we were going to keep all the sixteen dogs we rounded up...

The big moment finally arrived. My mother, full of smiles and insincerity, told Aunt Mary that it would relieve her of a tedious chore - and heaven knows, she added, there were a thousand steps to take in that old house - if the old lady would be good enough to set down a plate of dog food in the kitchen at the head of the cellar stairs and call Judge and Sampson to their supper ... when the door opened and the could see the light of freedom and smell the odor of food, they gave tongue like a pack of hunting hounds. Aunt Mary got the door halfway open and the bodies of the largest dogs pushed it the rest of the way. There was a snarling, barking, yelping swirl of yellow and white, black and tan, gray and brindle as the dogs tumbled into the kitchen...

When the last one had departed and the upset house had been put back in order, my father said to his wife, ``Well, Mame, I hope you're satisfied.'' She was.

Now, that's my heroine! I identify with her, I emulate her, I want to live up to Mamie Thurber. And where would I be without her? Roughly where American women so often are - gloomily deciding yet once again that if women writers are nice, I must not be a woman, or a writer, or something. In a state of confusion, in short.

exiledonmainstreet said...

sunsong, I recall very well how much you and Inga applauded the Women's March, despite the fact that the truth about Sarsour was out before the march occurred. That one of the organizers was a terrorist supporter and another actually was convicted of murdering a man didn't matter one bit at the time.

So I am not taking this outrage about Nazis very seriously.

tim in vermont said...

There you go again with your damn whataboutism, exiled!

exiledonmainstreet said...

In New Orleans, the antifa defaced a statue of that notorious Confederate general Joan of Arc last night.

exiledonmainstreet said...

We must remember that antifa is a group of peaceful protesters.

Also, Joan of Arc was pretty butch. It's easy to confuse her, with, say, Jubal Early.

jwl said...

I think it was final day of campaigning before election day but lady gaga dressed as a nazi for hillary clinton events, jason kessler is a democrat who voted for obama and organized a nazi rally but somehow the conversation is about hateful republicans.

CStanley said...


TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

This is clearly a case of Trump and the reporter talking past each other. The reporter is correct that Nazis showed up. I think Trump is unclear about the they he is referring to. There were plenty of Nazis who were very clear about who they were. However, I don't think that the entire rally in support of keeping the statue was billed as a Nazi or White Supremacist rally, at least not in all promotion of it. If not, then there is no reason to assume that everyone there was a White Supremacist.

Trump is very clear that there were some very bad people in that group ( the group of people who showed up at the rally. ) He also claims that there were some very fine people at the rally on the side of keeping the statue.

I don't know if that is factually correct or not. Do you know if it is factually correct?

Whether it is correct or not, the fact that he has to point out that they ( the rally as a whole ) was not put down as a Nazi rally makes it entirely clear that he believes that the group of fine people is distinct from the group of people intentionally showing up for a Nazi rally.


I agree with this commenter saying that the reporter and Trump were talking past each other. I still think Trump made a muddle of things though.

Why not focus on the right of free speech and lawful assembly even for people with odious ideas? He could also add that there ARE decent people who oppose the dismantling of Confederate memorials, and that some of them might have inadvertently joined in a rally staged by white supremacists (I haven't seen evidence that they did, and Trump should not be claiming that this happened if it isn't accurate-but he could state it as a possibility). He could use that as a steeping off point to suggest that decent people on both sides should reflect on these things and should make sure that they don't get dragged in to these events staged by extremists. If you support Confederate memorials but not racism, start a group or find one to join and stage your own rally where you clearly express what you are for and what you oppose. Same with the left- oppose racism and Naziism but don't make common cause with violent anarchist groups like antifa.

I think this is a really important point, and the president could be making it but has not.

Levi Starks said...

Kittym,
I think you fail to recognize this forum for what it is.
It is in fact a place where people of opposing views gather to bludgeon each other with words. It's a verbal bloodsport. People don't fight fair, and the irony is that half the posts are by people complaining that people don't fight fair.
If you think posting here is going to somehow "make a difference" you're wrong.
The best possible outcome from reading and posting here is that you come to a realization of how hopeless both sides are, This forum is for people who recognize the hopelessness of the human condition.
Any victory you may think you have won is fleeting at best.


Michael K said...

"This forum is for people who recognize the hopelessness of the human condition. "

I disagree. There are posters here who make good arguments and I learn from a few.

Once a thread gets to be longer than 100 comments or late in the day the trolls come out and then it is useless.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

In New Orleans, the antifa defaced a statue of that notorious Confederate general Joan of Arc last night.

Proving what we know.
The leftist brownshirts are out to smash and destroy. Any statue will do.

rhhardin said...

It's a good thing our culture doesn't put up phallus statues or the feminists would be out there too.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

rhhardin said...

It's a good thing our culture doesn't put up phallus statues or the feminists would be out there too.

The Washington Monument could be a two-fer.

Feste said...

I pay taxes so my local police keep a legitimate monopoly on violence and that’s why I appreciate their efforts at saving money by running away and hiding during violent protests, on the psychological theory that abandoning their posts and ignoring violence is the best humor. It’s strategic hiding, really, a courageous silence, following the psychological advice about humor, never acting, just parodying, and it’s sort of like, "Don't forget, you men don't know that I'm here. No mention of that fact is to be made in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell happened to me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this Army. I'm not even supposed to be here in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the Goddamned Germans. Some day I want to see them raise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl, 'Jesus Christ, it's the Goddamned Third Army again and that son-of-a-fucking-bitch Patton'.”

Sal said...

I've lived in the US for over 50 years and I'm still waiting to meet my first neo-Nazi.

PB said...

The best thing to do to white nationalists is to mock and laugh at them.

Tiki torches? Really?

Levi Starks said...

Michael K,
You're one of my favorite contestants.

CStanley said...

The best thing to do to white nationalists is to mock and laugh at them.

Tiki torches? Really?


A creative counterprotest would have had everyone in grass skirts and leis drinking out of coconuts with little paper umbrellas.

KittyM said...

@Levi Starks "It is in fact a place where people of opposing views gather to bludgeon each other with words. It's a verbal bloodsport. People don't fight fair, and the irony is that half the posts are by people complaining that people don't fight fair."

Thank you. That is genuinely illuminating.

I don't really belong in a forum where "people don't fight fair". I must confess, as you may have guessed, I am a bit pathetic when it comes to the rough and tumble of this kind of place. I don't like insulting people, I of course don't like to be insulted, and I actually don't really "get" the point of it.

I came here originally because I thought that a forum run by a law professor would attract a crowd interested in debating the issues. It never occurred to me to try and "win" (as in "Any victory you may think you have won is fleeting at best"). I just wanted to hear what others have to say and try and counter with some arguments and see what happens. But I admit, I am very put off by much of the reaction to my comments, very little of which addresses my points and much of which involved accusing me of saying things I didn't say.

I mean, obviously that's all just my problem and if I don't like it, I shouldn't waste my time here. So totally my own responsibility. I'm just sharing my feedback.


William said...

I think Trump says a lot of stupid shit. I think many Confederate statues are inappropriate in their placement and that some Confederate leaders are not worthy of commemoration.........There you are Kitty. I've met you half way. Let me see you write some tiny observations that are inconsistent with the party line.

Darrell said...

Hello Kitty.
You can try and serve up crap sandwiches, but that doesn't mean we're going to eat them. If you are being paid to be here, it doesn't matter. You aren't going to change peoples' minds anyway. It's an internet rule.

Gahrie said...

The best thing to do to white nationalists is to mock and laugh at them.

No it isn't.

The best thing to do is to eliminate all identity politics so that you don't provide a motivation for them to exist.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

KittyM

I hope you'll stick around, there is a lot of crap here, but there is also some genuine discussion. From what I've seen the ratio is better here than most places on the internet.

Of course, my perspective is biased by the fact that I'm arguing for the side that is correct, so your experience may be different. ( I'm kidding, I'm kidding! ( mostly ))

KittyM said...

@William "Let me see you write some tiny observations that are inconsistent with the party line."

I honestly don't know what party line you mean and I don't know how to persuade commenters here that I am participating in good faith and not from any particular "line".

But if you mean, you'd like to read from me something that is not hostile to Trump supporters, I could say lots of things. I think many Trump supporters genuinely believe that they are defending the American way of life. I also think that there are people - young people - on the extreme left who have views that are much more radicalised and violent than I support; people I would not like and would disagree with. I think it is a mistake to meet violence with violence.

KittyM said...

@Ignorance is Bliss "Of course, my perspective is biased by the fact that I'm arguing for the side that is correct."

So funny. I love that! That was such a cool aside. And thanks for your kind words. As I said above, I'm just not cut out for the very harsh stuff; but I love the discussions!

KittyM said...

@Darrell "If you are being paid to be here, it doesn't matter." Is that what people think?

I wish there was a way of persuading you of my genuineness. But I guess there isn't. I really am what I say I am - an individual, in front of my computer, just joining in.

clint said...

David Begley said..."Where were these neo-Nazi losers a year ago? Why so quiet then? And why weren't all these CSA monuments removed during Obama's 8 years. Way easier to do than closing Gitmo."

Ralph L said..."Where were the white nationalists during the Obama years? The dems all told us the normal right hated the color of his skin and not the feckless leftist under it."

There's a good summary of the "major" white supremacist and neo-nazi rallies of the last decade at the Anti-Defamation League site: https://www.adl.org/blog/unite-the-right-rally-could-be-largest-white-supremacist-gathering-in-a-decade

Short answer -- there were lots of rallies. There was even one in July 2015 that managed to get more than a hundred Klansmen together to protest Governor Nikki Haley (NB: now a member of President Trump's cabinet) removing the confederate flag from the South Carolina capitol grounds. Of course, they only managed to break a hundred only by inviting a group of neo-nazis to join them. They were outnumbered about twenty-to-one by counter protestors. There were even some violent clashes with Black Panthers. But the police, under Governor Haley, actually made an effort to keep the two sides separate (Imagine that! What a clever idea!) and to ban weapons. Result: the march took place, both sides got to chant and posture and yell "Black Power!" and "White Power!" at each other, and no one was killed or seriously hurt. Perhaps Governor McAuliffe should call Ambassador Haley and ask for some tips for next time.

KittyM@8/18/17, 7:50 AM said.. "But the reason I am outraged this week is that this was not the response of the President of the United States! He didn't scoff. He didn't condemn. He suggested the Nazis were not all bad. He gave these guys a wink and a nod; he let them know they have his support; at least, he signalled that to them in a way that that was the message they received."

You must not have seen or read his speech. The President said: "Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans." (Full text of Monday's remarks, via Politico: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/14/full-text-trump-comments-white-supremacists-charlottesville-va-transcript-241618 )

Did you miss this? I suppose you could say he was lying, or didn't really mean it. I'm certain you'd be wrong -- but reasonable people can disagree about what third parties are thinking. What you absolutely cannot do is honestly say that he didn't condemn them.

As for the rest... how much credence are we supposed to give to the perception of coded messages from celebrities by fringe nuts, including at least one schizophrenic off his meds?

Bob Loblaw said...

Fascists killed in Charlottesville = 0
Charlottesville residents murdered = 1

Seem unambiguous who propagated the violence.


I suppose, if you don't understand the meaning of the word "violence". There was plenty of violence that didn't result in death, and it was initiated by Antifa.

KittyM said...

@clint I had the same reaction as most of the world - that he was mealy-mouthed, that he did not say *enough* to make it clear that he *unequivocally* condemns and distances himself from these groups. And the proof that I am right and you are wrong is that these very groups (the white nationalists) celebrated his words, openly. They understood that he is the first US president to not make crystal clear that these groups are beyond the pale.

I do see what you're saying. But I believe you are being deliberately obtuse - or you are being naive - if you just read that one sentence and do not read it in context.

Or - put it another way - if, as you believe, Trump was genuinely condemning Nazis, was genuinely trying to distance himself from these obnoxious supporters, was genuinely horrified by that march...then he did a truly terrible job of expressing this, since most of the world, including those groups themselves, read his response as the opposite. And it is the job of the person speaking - particularly if he is the President on such an event - to express himself clearly so that there is no question and so that you and I won't have anything to argue about.

Known Unknown said...

"Tiki torches? Really?"

This is weird but I read that there's a law in Virginia that forbids marching with actual torches. The tiki variety falls outside of that jurisdiction. They are categorized as candles.



Bob Loblaw said...

Short answer -- there were lots of rallies. There was even one in July 2015 that managed to get more than a hundred Klansmen together to protest Governor Nikki Haley (NB: now a member of President Trump's cabinet) removing the confederate flag from the South Carolina capitol grounds.

A... hundred? In a country of 340 million? Also, according to wikipedia fully 10% of the KKK is made up of FBI agents of one type or another. So a if you see a rally with 100 Klansmen you have to realize there are really only 90.

Darrell said...

Trump Disavowing David Duke and KKK from 1991 to 2016, Trump calls Duke "bigot" & "a problem."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlOH_iKxPus

The other day I posted a video collage of dozens of these statements by Trump, including an old interview where he said that he thinks he was five years old the first time that he said the KKK were bad people. Of course that would allow the Guardian to say that Trump supported the KKK for five years.

n.n said...

I like to refer to them as the "twilight fringe", inspired by their Pro-Choice quasi-religious/moral, legal, scientific, and political philosophy informed by emanations from the penumbra.

n.n said...

There are two possibilities for the car incident. One, it was an elective abortion, and the driver should be sent to Planned Parenthood for processing, or perhaps something more humane. Two, the driver came upon the Antifa mob, and was herded into a "kill zone".

Bruce Hayden said...

ARM:
"Fascists killed in Charlottesville = 0
Charlottesville residents murdered = 1"

Since it is all about the narrative, let's try this:

Innocent bystanders killed = 0
Violence organizers killed = 1

Jim at said...

"I don't want to change any law in America."

Of course not. You - and your fellow, leftist ilk - want them selectively enforced. You know, against the 'bad' people.

Well guess what? Some of us aren't just going to sit around and become second-class citizens simply because you don't like our politics.

So, just keep pushing. Keep claiming you're as pure as the driven snow. The 'good' people have the correct moral compass, don't you see?

Keep it up.

gg6 said...

OH, GAWD, AND NOW THIS?
"Violence directed at white nationalists only fuels their narrative of victimhood ......Quite aside from "their narrative of victimhood," there's their desire to be regarded as staunchly masculine ....."
OH, YES, YES, IT'S JUST ANOTHER MALE GENDER 'MASCULINITY' PROBLEM...ALONG WITH FAT-SHAMING....and, anyway, I thought in our current Culture any form of 'Victimhood' was to be reverently respected and ear-marked for entitlements and exceptions, no?

AND ONLY GAWD HIMSELF KNOWS WHAT THIS IS SUPPOSED TO MEAN. NO WAIT, HE PROBABLY DOESN'T KNOW EITHER....
But humor is hard. It takes some brains. Violence is easy.

clint said...

KittyM@8/18/17, 11:41 AM said...

1) No. I'm not being deliberately obtuse. Sometimes, that's what it looks like when you talk to someone who starts with different assumptions or who knows some things you don't or doesn't know some things you do. In this case, how we hear someone's remarks can be strongly influenced by our preconceived notions of who they are.

If David Duke says that the government should not discriminate on the basis of race, we take a different meaning from it than if Jesse Jackson says the same thing. But the words themselves still have a meaning of their own, independent of what we might read into them.

2) Of course I read the whole speech and not just that one sentence. I also linked to it, so you could have it handy without needing to search for it. I just didn't quote it all here because long cuts-and-pastes into the comment threads on someone else's blog are in bad form. I invite you to read it again -- not just the one sentence, but at least the two paragraphs of condemnation. The words themselves -- if you subtract everything you know about President Trump from the equation and just read the words -- let's imagine that they were written for him by an unknown third party -- is there anything in the words themselves that makes you question whether the writer (not Trump!) really condemns Nazis?

3) Okay... if you're really going to insist that the deranged and hateful fringe extremists of the white supremacy movement are the be-all end-all proof of President Trump's meaning... perhaps you should look up David Duke's reaction to Trump's speech on Monday. Hint: he's definitely not celebrating. But again, I don't believe in basing my understanding of things that happen on the viewpoint of fringe extremists.

4) You seem to put a great deal of stock in your believe that nearly everyone agrees with you. You might be surprised. There's polling on this. The poll was done half on Monday, before the President had even delivered the more explicit remarks we're talking about. And yet only 52% believed he hadn't been strong enough in his remarks. You're probably in the majority in being disappointed with his statements -- but it's not as overwhelming as you might think.

5) "... he is the first US president to not make crystal clear that these groups are beyond the pale."

He said we should be united as Americans in condemning them. He said they are repugnant to everything we hold dear.

I don't understand how that couldn't be enough to make it clear that these groups are "beyond the pale"...

(Also, minor history note... quite a few of our past presidents have been open supporters of white supremacy, slavery, the Klan, Jim Crow laws, segregation, and on and on.)

Takeaway question: Can you think of something President Trump could have said that would persuade you he really does hate Nazis? (aka the people who hate his daughter.)

(P.S. Welcome!)

Big Mike said...

I expressed no opinion.

Double liar! But there's worse -- it turns out the Heather Heyer really was part of a hate group: the IWW.

Big Mike said...

Has anybody besides me noticed how thoroughly KittyM managed to hijack this thread? Just askin'

KittyM said...

@clint I'm in a total rush so I don't have time to respond to your response to me. But I just wanted to very quickly thank you for taking the time to answer my points so clearly and without malice or nastiness. I really appreciate it.

Lots of commenters here have assumed that I am "reading from a script" but I really am just a person thinking things through and eager to engage with views other than my own.

You've given me a lot to think about. Once again, many thanks and have a great afternoon!

KittyM said...

@Bruce Hayden
"Since it is all about the narrative, let's try this:

Innocent bystanders killed = 0
Violence organizers killed = 1"

Wow. That is ice cold. That feeds into every cliché of the right being heartless.

Big Mike said...

Wow. That is ice cold. That feeds into every cliché of the right being heartless.

@KittyM, if you're still around, you must be from a wealthy background not to appreciate how hard and heartless real life is.

Are you Jewish, KittyM? Are you angry at Trump because he doesn't hate neo-Nazis as much as you think he should? Or are you angry because the odds are 7:1 that his daughter is more observant than you are?

KittyM said...

@BigMike "you must be from a wealthy background not to appreciate how hard and heartless real life is."

How does real life being hard and heartless (which btw I totally agree with, you have no idea how much I agree with that) excuse or justify your own personal ice-cold comments? What does the one have to do with the other?

"Are you Jewish, KittyM?" Excuse me? WTF? What has that got to do with *anything*? I'm just - wow - stunned. Because I criticise Trump, I must be Jewish???? Since when did a person need some special background to have views on the current president? So so strange.

Lydia said...

You certainly must be new to this place, KittyM, if you're surprised by that Jewish question. After all, quite a few of the folks here agree wholeheartedly with Trump that there were some "very fine people" among those blood-and-soil-chanting Nazis a week ago.

YoungHegelian said...

@KittyM

Since when did a person need some special background to have views on the current president? So so strange.

So, you're saying that ethnicity, race, income level, & region have no bearing on politics & voting patterns?

Wow, that's gonna hit pollsters where they live alright!

In applying the principle of intellectual charity towards our interlocutors in a debate, I think you should assume that BigMike asks you that questions because all of us come from viewpoints & backgrounds, & to understand each other it helps to know that background.

And, since I live on the East Coast & married a Jewish woman, yes, there is very much a modern secular & urban Jewish "worldview", just as much as there is an Evangelical Southern one.

YoungHegelian said...

@Lydia/Kittym,

And while were talking about "fine people", go back & read the exchanges over the past week. Over & over again the commenters here reference the figure of 100 million dead at the hands of Marxist-Leninist regimes. Multiple sources are given for that figure or for where the component numbers come from are given.

Never once did a lefty commenter deal with or admit the validity of that figure, even when asked directly to do so.

That figure is why we here claim moral equivalency between Antifa & Nazis. The Antifa people include a great many Marxist Leninists in their group, & they have all sucked cock for regimes that murdered millions. And the Arnarchists...Ha! Any Anarchist worth his salt's reaction to a Marxist-Leninist is to knife him in his sleep. No group has murdered more anarchists than the Marxists. No one. Those people shame the name of Anarchism.

Big Mike said...

@KittyM, I will respond in an effort to show you where you are going off the rails (which is what you are doing from where I sit).

How does real life being hard and heartless ... excuse or justify your own personal ice-cold comments?

Because people make decisions all the time. Many of them are objectively dangerous. Some people join a church where the preacher and the congregation handle live rattlesnakes. Some people go solo rock climbing. Some national park tourists try to hand-feed grizzly bears. In 1970 Diana Oughton, Ted Gold, and Terry Robbins, members of the Weather Underground, blew themselves up making a bomb to attack the Ft. Dix army base.

Now let's look at Heather Heyer. She was emphatically not an innocent bystander; she was an organizer for a hate group called the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW). It is described as being an anarchist movement that does not eschew violence. That being true, then she was not a random stranger going over to Fourth and Water to see what's up. She was, in all likelihood, one of the instigators. Did she realize that getting out in the street, in an obvious effort not just to block traffic but to trap cars on a one-way street, was dangerous? Perhaps not, but it was dangerous and it was what she chose to do. Do you see that? Do you think it's cold? It isn't. You make a dangerous decision, you have to live with the consequences.

The reason why I asked about your religion is that your comments so closely parallel my Jewish friends are acting the same way. Trump is a racist! Trump is anti-Semitic! One of these friends told me, earnestness dripping from every word, that a swastika had been painted on his son's old elementary school. Painted by whom? By a member of the Trump administration? Or by a kid trying to get the school shut down because he's not prepared for a math test? Or, all too likely, a hoax by a Lefty who -- if found -- would claim that he or she "wanted to start a dialog"? There's been a surprising number of hoaxes out there where the perpetrator claims that he or she just wanted to start a dialog.

Here's what you wrote upthread: "I just wanted to hear what others have to say and try and counter with some arguments and see what happens." And I do believe that you believe that. But I believe that you're lying to yourself.

You may want to read what Scott Adams has to say about your situation.

If you start off believing that Donald Trump is a racist and a bigot, then it's easy to reason your way right back around your starting point as your rational conclusion. But to do that you have to ignore all of the evidence that says you're completely wrong and blow up things that are neverminds. Trump is a closet racist? I'll bet that would surprise Omarosa Manigault (yes, that Omarosa), who is one of his closest aides. Not to mention the black celebrities he pals with (or used to pal with, before Democrats got tough with them). Trump is an anti-Semite? Yet he didn't stop his daughter from marrying an Orthodox Jew and converting. I don't know whether he's ever sat Seder with that part of his family, but no one would argue that Jared Kushner and Ivanka are family outcasts. That's the one that really gets my Jewish friends worked up. One family is Reformed and the others are Conservative. Ergo, Trump's daughter is more observant than they are. Kind of sticks in their craw, I gather.

But contrary evidence easy to ignore if it means not giving up on your own biases and bigotry, yes?

Big Mike said...

@Lydia, @YoungHegelian, thanks.

Big Mike said...

Almost forgot to mention (as if I haven't been windy enough already), that I suspect Donald Trump felt the way I did after his first press conference -- you mean people don't already know that the neo-Nazis are despicable? If I don't say it they don't know? WTF?