August 15, 2017

Trump won't concede that he was wrong to talk about "many sides," because "before I make a statement, I like to know the facts."

The NYT reports on "a long, combative exchange with reporters at Trump Tower."
Mr. Trump repeated that assertion on Tuesday, criticizing “alt-left” groups that he claimed were “very, very violent” when they sought to confront the nationalist and Nazi groups that had gathered in Charlottesville, Virginia to protest the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee from a park. He said there is “blame on both sides.”
Here's a part of today's statement, in which he is explicit that he did not condemn everyone on the non-counterprotester side.



"I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. Not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch... Many of those people were there to protest the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next? You have to ask yourself, where does it stop?”

ADDED: Some people thought his remarks yesterday represented a backing off from his much-criticized "many sides" line, but I was not one of them.  I think what he said Saturday, yesterday, and today was basically all the same thing.

633 comments:

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Fabi said...

"user: achilles is very good at constructing strawman arguments. i will only debate my actual position, not the one he is imposing on me. this goes for everyone else. i will no longer debate with those who post in bad faith."

Better call Guinness about that irony record, too!

Alex said...

3rdGrade... you're truly a pathetic piece of shit that Ann tolerates on this blog for some reason.

Big Mike said...

@Lydia, Lincoln once held similar beliefs. Somewhere along the line Lincoln evolved, and from everything I know of Lee's postwar life, he did, too. Welcome to the real world, where intelligent people learn and evolve. Just not you.

YoungHegelian said...

i will no longer debate with those who post in bad faith.

Didn't some guys from Cream & Traffic form a band called "Bad Faith" in the late 60's?**

**Oh, for God's sake, yes, I know it was Blind Faith. I'm a helluva cultured dude, ya know....

gadfly said...

@Unknown [Vance] said...
So kind of off topic, but not really.

So last week ... a frothing leftist ... named Clayton Carter deliberately murdered a Republican neighbor, George Jennings, who was a member of the local leadership of the Republican party.

Local news reporting from ABC 25 Crossroads Today has some pertinent facts that make Vance's comments off target:

Chester County, PA -- A man was taken into custody shortly after he shot and killed his next-door neighbor early Monday morning.

Clayton Carter, of West Goshen Township, is charged with murder and related offenses for the death of G. Brooks Jennings.

West Goshen Police say two disputes took place, hours within each other, prior to the deadly shooting.

The first dispute occurred Monday around 7:50 p.m. The criminal complaint says officers responded to a dispute between Carter and Jennings about cursing and a video recording in the back yard - it was later resolved by police who arrived on the scene.

Hours later, around 1 a.m., the two engaged in another dispute, which eventually led to the shooting death of Jennings. According to the criminal complaint, Carter claimed that the victim was shining a light into his eyes while he was inside his residence at 312 Box Elder Drive. Carter then exited his house, pulled a car onto his own lawn and shined his high beams toward Jennings, who was standing in front of his dwelling at 314 Box Elder Drive.

Carter then confronted the victim, a second time, after grabbing a .380 caliber semi-automatic handgun from his residence.

The defendant shot Jennings twice in the head on the victim's property - the second shot occurred while Carter stood over Jennings' body.

whitney said...

Trump never apologizes. Did people forget that?

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"There's no way you're going to raise an army to fight for slavery in a place where only 2% of people own slaves. Lee, like other non-slaveholding Virginians, were fighting for their country"

Well, we know that we can get a majority (or the number required by law, but not most of the voters) to vote to move economic gains to the top 0.1%, while they tread water or slip backwards.

Presumably, dopes will go to war for others benefit too. E.g., just cause Bush and Cheney were in the oil biz, doesn't mean that all of the military that fought for them (and their cohorts) were too. Presumably plenty of (most of?) the folks who fight end up fighting to advance the pocketbooks of their financial betters.

Birkel said...

whitney:

Was he supposed to apologize for an Obama supporter organizing mayhem in Charlottesville?

The SPLC wants to know.

heyboom said...

@Lydia

The General was absolutely right. I certainly wouldn't be living the life of privilege and opportunity I am had my ancestors remained in Africa.

AReasonableMan said...

Blogger Alex said...
3rdGrade... you're truly a pathetic piece of shit that Ann tolerates on this blog for some reason.


The reason is that he is not a boring retread of whiny, tired hate-filled right-wing tropes. Though he sometimes overdoes the white spaces thing.

Big Mike said...

@Bob Loblaw, I know that. Robert Edward Lee was a member of the first families of Virginia (we call it FFV), and married to another member of the FFV (his wife was a Custis). He would have always chosen to go with his state over his country. In 1860 nearly everyone, North and South, would have felt much the same.

Birkel said...

"Well, we know that we can get a majority (or the number required by law, but not most of the voters) to vote to move economic gains to the top 0.1%, while they tread water or slip backwards."

But enough about Obama...

Unknown said...

@vicari valdez says achilles is very good at constructing strawman arguments.

Really? That is giving @Achilles a lot of credit. I thought his notes were verbal diarrhoea.

But, whatever 'it' is, it is not worth reading or responding to.

mockturtle said...

In answer to Ms. 'cut and paste', I offer this. Lincoln, in a letter to Horace Greeley.
He proclaimed that his principal aim was to save the Union, not to free slaves.

"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views." [emphasis mine]

In a debate with Stephen Douglas, Lincoln said: “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,”

So, do we tear down every statue of Lincoln? Do we impugn his reputation as one of our greatest Presidents? We cannot undo every moral wrong by tearing down history. We can learn by remembering.

YoungHegelian said...

3rd Grade,

Well, we know that we can get a majority (or the number required by law, but not most of the voters) to vote to move economic gains to the top 0.1%, while they tread water or slip backwards.

No, we don't know that. This is the Marxist "False Consciousness" nonsense still spouted by people who know & believe in no Marx at all.

This claim is a lie the Left tells itself to cover up why they have alienated a large fraction of the population that used to solidly vote for them. Waking up, looking in the mirror, & admitting you're an arrogant, self-righteous peckerhead is not on the Lefty plan for the day. Ever.

Birkel said...

Will AReasonableMan condemn the Occupy Wall Street, Obama supporting Leftist who organized the Charlottesville mayhem?

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/jason-kessler

heyboom said...

Maybe, the South would be so backward to this day, if a strong, harsher cleaning out had been implemented from the start. Seems to have worked for Japan and Germany.

Having grown up a minority in the Deep South I would say it is a far more accepting, neighborly and friendly place to be than here in SoCal. I'm guessing your observation is based on things you've heard and not lived.

Jonathan Graehl said...

A great and necessary moment. Thank you, President Trump.

The retreat against the insane alt-left must end, now.

Birkel said...

http://www.dailywire.com/news/19741/leftist-activists-demand-new-york-museum-take-down-michael-qazvini

Teddy Roosevelt is coming down too, if Leftist Collectivists have their ways.

Can I get Paddy O and Freeman Hunt to opine?

Unknown said...

Oh good, ARM's back to tell us how a leftist executing a Republican committee chair in cold blood is a-ok and perfectly fine and expected, but that a guy fleeing a mob intent on his death that runs over someone is a murderer that everyone on the right supports.

Gadfly: The arguments between Carter and Jennings was over politics--numerous times. Aren't you proud of your leftist guy finally executing a Republican? I note that he didn't bother to deny the Daily mail story I linked.

By the way, did 3rd Grade just call for a military occupation and razing of the entire south? I do believe he did; saying we need to do reconstruction better this time--just like we conquered Germany and Japan.

Yes, moderate people always respond to other who disagree with them by proposing carpet bombing, nuking them, and a complete military occupation. Not even Jonathan Swift could have dreamed up such a perfect example of leftist lunacy.

--Vance

Brookzene said...

Love love love my President.

Your incoherent president.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Unknown said...
@exiledonmainstreet says Inga is now reduced to making up her own headlines.

Not as idiotic as assuming every Unknown is Inga.

8/15/17, 4:53 PM

All Unknowns, with the exception of Vance, sound equally asinine. A moronic Borg, with no individuality at all, just a collective anus spewing left-wing crap.



Tyrone Slothrop said...

I'm a Civil War history buff. My mother was an accomplished genealogist. Regrettably, for all her efforts and mine, I don't have a direct ancestor who fought in the Civil War. My great-great grandfather, a 19-year-old, joined up with a (Union) Missouri militia that spent several months riding around the southern part of the state without doing anything of note. After that, Friedrich Leimbröck had no further military career. We suspect his health was not good. My great-great grandmother had four brothers who served in various Illinois units of the Union Army. One spent a year in Andersonville prison, and walked home to Illinois after the war. These parts of my family sacrificed a lot to help end slavery.

Another branch of the family was also from Missouri, represented by a medical doctor who served in the Confederate Army. We believe he was a Democrat landowner who may have owned slaves. Confusingly, some records show him as having served in the Union Army also. Who knows where the Hippocratic oath might lead a person?

Interesting stuff, no? Who can resist such romance?

All water under the bridge. My mother was fascinated by the stories her ancestors had to tell. I believe she died regretting that she never found a black or a Jew in our lineage, though she did find a Native American. He was a pre-Trail-of-Tears North Carolina Cherokee man who married a white woman and owned four slaves, according to the census.

Why am I blathering on about this? It's because I'm an American, and it all belongs to me. John Brown and Nathan Bedford Forrest, Harriet Tubman and Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard belong to me. John Adams, Aaron Burr, and George Washington belong to me. When you tear down their monuments, whatever good or bad things you might try to pin on them, you diminish me, and you diminish yourself. Preserve history, don't wreck it. It's all we have.

Brookzene said...

The reason is that he is not a boring retread of whiny, tired hate-filled right-wing tropes.

Mic drop.

Francisco D said...

Inga, I knew you were an idiot when you described yourself as an ex-psych nurse.

If you read the instructions on the bottom, you can empty a bedpan. The rest is a mystery or a collective and unsubstantiated belief system. You really have no idea about which you speak. Quotations mean nothing without context and explanation.

Leave the rest to people who have some knowledge and intelligence.

Your shilling for the leftist narrative is foolish and embarrassing to intelligent people.

sodal ye said...

"us thinkin' folks will save you backward losers and otherwise riled up DJT fans "

You're delusional. There isn't an actual (Krugman is a liar) INTJ person in America who voted Hilary. Not possible. What they say is another thing however.


AReasonableMan said...

Who here genuinely believes that the desire of the people of Charlottesville to remove a statue is a sign of the apocalypse for white people?

Birkel said...

Brookzene supports the Obama supporting, Occupy Wall Streeter who organized the Charlottesville mayhem.

The SPLC knows.

Achilles said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
Mike,

Maybe the wrong move was not ditching the statues sooner.


They should be put in museums. Museums everyone visits. The Confederacy must never be forgotten. They shouldn't be monuments of public grounds. They should be object lessons.

Maybe, the South would be so backward to this day, if a strong, harsher cleaning out had been implemented from the start. Seems to have worked for Japan and Germany.

The South got absolutely annihilated. The number of military age men killed vs. total population was staggering. The economic devastation of Sherman's march is only rivaled by the bombing of Germany. Japan got off light comparatively because the Nukes obviated the need to wipe out every city though Tokyo was pretty much rubble by then.

Today if you go to the South it is not really different than Washington or California. Some places are distressingly similar. Sure you can find some redknecks out in the swamps or hills in Alabama. But you can find people living in caves out in Republic, Washington.

Better late than never.

Have a purpose. Don't just let these people airbrush history. I think it is particlarly disgusting that Democrats are using Black people to try to erase their history of slavery, Jim Crow, and all the rest.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

You're just going to completely uncritically quote his purported love of facts?

This is the guy who launched his political career with the Obama Kenyan birth conspiracy -

Who's an anti-vaccine "truther" -

A climate denialist -

Who never changes his mind when confronted with the truth behind his lies -

and even doubled-down with the ludicrous charge that Obama wiretapped him.

Seriously, an eighth-century old towne news crier gave more cogent summaries than these completely credulous ticker tape newscrawl summaries.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"Teddy Roosevelt is coming down too, if Leftist Collectivists have their ways."

You, obviously, didn't listen to much (any?) of the Scott Adams clip.

That's been covered.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Unknown said...
Michelle Obama: "The presidency doesn't change who you are. It reveals who you are"

It revealed her to be a fool who thought tweeting out a picture of herself looking sad about kidnapped girls actually meant something.

Bay Area Guy said...

Tyrone Slothrop for the win!

Big Mike said...

@Tyrone, very eloquent.

Birkel said...

ARM,

I agree with you that the Occupy Wall Street, Obama supporting organizer should not have imposed on Charlottesville. Will you join me in condemning the Left on Left violence?

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

I see Achilles somehow got onto a Southern revisionist kick without even a post from the host so far on the apex of Trump's daily abomination: The contention that George Washington, the first president general of the Revolutionary army and example for all presidents - a man who never took up arms against the United States to prevent the end of human bondage 85 years later - is a morally equivalent leader to Robert E. Lee.

Unknown said...

@exiledonmainstreet says A moronic Borg, with no individuality at all, just a collective anus spewing left-wing crap.

True, it is the Borg and you will be assimilated.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"Have a purpose. Don't just let these people airbrush history. I think it is particularly disgusting that Democrats are using Black people to try to erase their history of slavery, Jim Crow, and all the rest."

Oh, I see you want to leave up the racist statues cause it's good for the black folks.

That's why the Nazis and KKK and White Supremes were in Charlottesville.


Strong argument ya gots there.

mockturtle said...

Heyboom says: Having grown up a minority in the Deep South I would say it is a far more accepting, neighborly and friendly place to be than here in SoCal. I'm guessing your observation is based on things you've heard and not lived.

I have observed this, too. I see much more black/white interaction in the South than in the North.

Birkel said...

PB&J

As with David Duke and Robert Spencer, I will leave you to develop an expertise in all things Dilbert. I'm not the kind of guy who spends time reading any of those three.

Unknown said...

The repugnance of these Confederate " heros" is not only that they owned slaves. They were TRAITORS. Insurrectionists. They were not heros, except to those who stand for the same thing these Confedertaes stood for.

Birkel said...

TTR supports slave owners.

TTR is not sufficiently WOKE.

Angel-Dyne said...

Lydia: re Big Mike @5:48 pm:

Ah, yes, the "good, capable, and honorable" Robert E. Lee, who wrote: [racist stuff]


Lydia, I trust you avoid reading history. You are far too tender a soul for what awaits you in those pages. Just about nobody in the 19th (and even early 20th century), the Good Guys and the Bad Guys, thought about race in a way that doesn't make people of our era cringe. Not even people who are sainted progressive heroes - not Lincoln, not Gandhi, not Schweitzer, not...fill in the blank. Even fervent abolitionists did not necessarily believe in the equality of the races.

Narcissistic "presentism" is the curse of too many modern "educated" people. You and I are the products of the times we live in, as were our ancestors. The probability that we are morally superior to them sub specie æternitatis is very slim. And the probability that they were right about some things we are sure we are dead right about, and they dead wrong, is not small. Show a little humility, and let them judge you as you judge them. Hopefully the people who follow us will be as charitable.

In other words, get over yourself.

Achilles said...

vicari valdez said...
user: achilles is very good at constructing strawman arguments. i will only debate my actual position, not the one he is imposing on me. this goes for everyone else. i will no longer debate with those who post in bad faith.

Like I said, you aren't smart enough to step back, look at what you said and what you proposed to do, and honestly accept it.

I think you grasp that what you said is somehow fucked up and wrong, but you refuse to be honest with yourself.

Birkel said...

UnknownInga82 should inform secessionist Californians that they are not sufficiently patriotic.

Lydia said...

mockturtle:

I'm well aware that Lincoln stated he did not believe in the "social and political equality of the white and black races", but if you read a bit more of that quote you provided, you'll see he was light years away from Lee's belief that what blacks needed was "painful discipline" and "subjugation":

"Now, gentlemen, I don't want to read at any greater length, but this is the true complexion of all I have ever said in regard to the institution of slavery and the black race. This is the whole of it, and anything that argues me into his idea of perfect social and political equality with the negro, is but a specious and fantastic arrangement of words, by which a man can prove a horse-chestnut to be a chestnut horse. [Laughter.] I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that, notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. [Loud cheers.] I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects-certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without the leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man."

Unknown said...

Brookezene also supports, along with ARM, the murdering of Republicans by their fellow leftists like Chester Clayton. Or blacks murdering whites just because they are white, like Lakim Faust. What was it you said, ARM? Oh yes: "A person was murdered. You all have blood on your hands!"

Well, leftists have been murdering people because of politics, and just last week Leftist Clayton Carter murdered in cold blood the local Republican Committee chairman in Chester County, Pennsylvania. Clayton Carter was most definitely a leftist, loading his front lawn with anti-Trump signs. Everyone knew he hated Republicans, and thus all blame goes to the left for murdering Mr. Jennings, the Republican.

Murder, ARM, Your buddy Clayton went into his house, got his gun, walked outside and shot Mr. Jennings, in front of the horrified eyes of Jennings wife. He then walked up to the body of Mr. Jennings and shot him in the head at point blank range, guaranteeing a kill.

You've been hyperventilating about "Republican violence" and "Nazi Murderers!" and blaming everyone on this blog personally for the death caused by that driver. So surely you are prepared to accept full responsibility for your buddy Clayton's deliberate, with malice aforethought, murder of a Republican party official.

Right? It's only fair, right?

Oh, by the way: Since you dismiss every rationale offered to explain the car and demand that it be regarded as politically cold murder, you must accept the same situation to Mr. Clayton: no excuses allowed. He murdered someone because his target was a Republican. Own it. You are guilty.

--Vance

Unknown said...

Wonder which will happen first: i) 25th Amendment as the GOP leaders and Generals march into the Oval Office or ii) Trump resigns or iii) Trump is nailed by Mueller before 2018 mid-terms.

Difficult betting choices.

Birkel said...

Not good enough, Lydia.

Get WOKE.

Achilles said...

AReasonableMan said...
Who here genuinely believes that the desire of the people of Charlottesville to remove a statue is a sign of the apocalypse for white people?

I think it is an attempt by democrats/progressives to airbrush their role in slavery out of history. They need all of the statues of democrat leaders from the confederacy to be removed so people will forget they were democrats.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

I don't know anyone who owns slaves Birko. Do you?

It seems you would.

Or else it's just more of your completely dishonest, overblown rhetoric - in search of a real point.

You do that a lot, I notice. I guess the real world is not easy for you to accommodate to.

mockturtle said...

Why am I blathering on about this? It's because I'm an American, and it all belongs to me. John Brown and Nathan Bedford Forrest, Harriet Tubman and Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard belong to me. John Adams, Aaron Burr, and George Washington belong to me. When you tear down their monuments, whatever good or bad things you might try to pin on them, you diminish me, and you diminish yourself. Preserve history, don't wreck it. It's all we have.

Amen, Tyrone! As Edmund Burke and others have observed, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

Birkel said...

British bookies will accept your wager. Don't talk us to death about betting. There is a fortune to be made.

Your support of a military junta is noted.

AReasonableMan said...

It is pretty hysterical in here tonight. I heard that Trump's press conference went badly, will have to check it out.

Birkel said...

Washington owned slaves.
You support Washington.
You support slavery.

QED in Leftist Land.

Get WOKE

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"It's all we have."

I can assure you that that's not all DJT has. And, if it was he'd identify himself as a total loser. Just as he would you and anyone else as unsuccessful or unaccomplished in their own existence.

SAD!


Achilles said...

Unknown said...
Wonder which will happen first: i) 25th Amendment as the GOP leaders and Generals march into the Oval Office or ii) Trump resigns or iii) Trump is nailed by Mueller before 2018 mid-terms.

Difficult betting choices.


Powers, Rice, Brennan will all be indicted before Trump ever leaves office. Good chance one of them turns and fingers Obama to get a lighter sentence.

The whole Russian hack collusion story is based on a lie.

Don't kill yourself over this. I know it is hard when your unicorns die but hang in there.

Unknown said...

ARM said... "It is pretty hysterical in here tonight. I heard that Trump's press conference went badly, will have to check it out."

In other words, after calling everyone on the right a murderer and a Nazi, he cannot face his own blatant, glaring hypocrisy in the face.

And yes, this is not the first time ARM has failed to speak up and condemn murder. See, he didn't condemn Hodgkinson's attacks on Republicans either.

Turns out, ARM doesn't mind murder--as long as the victims are Republicans, he doesn't care at all. Especially if some of his fellow Democrats are doing the murdering of the Republicans.

Otherwise ARM wouldn't be fleeing from accepting his blame for Clayton's cold blooded murder.

--Vance

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

I think it is an attempt by democrats/progressives to airbrush their role in slavery out of history.

You need to try a little harder to make a dumber point. There aren't many statues commemorating Hitler, and somehow history hasn't forgotten about HIM. I guess it's another case of how, if it's in a book or museum, you don't know about it. Just if it's a big bronze bust then you're all for it.

BTW, it seems you're the one who must be a fan of these fighters-for-slavery, since you're the one who seems to have an issue with the state no longer officially commemorating them. No matter how long the Confederate Republicans have been running the South.

Anyone who thinks a vote for a Democrat in 2017 makes a retroactive pro-slavery stance is dumber than a rock. But keep denying away what Lee Atwater, Ken Mehlman and Michael Steele told you about how they got those voters back.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"It is pretty hysterical in here tonight. I heard that Trump's press conference went badly, will have to check it out."

I heard that too. From a conservative friend that called me, she said even Fox was saying so.

Like you, I'll wait to make my own judgement.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Washington owned slaves.
You support Washington.
You support slavery.


So this is your idea of how to make an intelligent or even sarcastic point?

Knock on the asylum door and let them know that you're ready to retire from productive, sane society.

Angel-Dyne said...

Tyrone Slothrop: Why am I blathering on about this? It's because I'm an American, and it all belongs to me. John Brown and Nathan Bedford Forrest, Harriet Tubman and Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard belong to me. John Adams, Aaron Burr, and George Washington belong to me. When you tear down their monuments, whatever good or bad things you might try to pin on them, you diminish me, and you diminish yourself. Preserve history, don't wreck it. It's all we have.

Bravo.

I admit that kinda choked me up. I have no idea what my ancestors who were in the country at the time of the war were up to. Odds are, if they were involved at all, it was on the Union side. I have no Confederate connection that I know of. Anymore than I know of any connection to most of all the other profound formative events of American history. But I'm an American, it's all mine. And to hell with the lot of you who want to burn down or bury the memories of any of it. Doing that isn't going to fix whatever's making you so angry and unhappy, anyway. Because that's not what's ailing you.

Achilles said...

President Trump"

“I’m not putting anybody on a moral plane. You had one group on one side, and you had a group on the other side,” Trump said. Observing the clashes that took place on Saturday morning, Trump added that liberal counter-protesters which included antifa protesters “violently attacked the other group.”

“I will tell you something. I watched those very closely, much more closely than you people watched it,” Trump said. "And you had a group on one side that was bad, and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent."

"And nobody wants to say that. But I'll say it right now. You had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit, and they were very, very violent.”



Nice to see a little honesty in the news today.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Washington, too, was way before my time. But he was a great initial president for his time -- and for all time. I don't count his Southern, slave-owning flaw against him as much as I would against slave-coitus-having Jefferson, and certainly not as much as I would against the rebel terrorists who went to war against the United States in order to maintain humans as property when it could no longer even hold politically or legally.

I realize these points will fly way over your head like a F-15.

Unknown said...

Tweet from Steve Scalise. People right left and center are distancing themselves from Trump.

Rep. Steve Scalise
Rep. Steve Scalise @SteveScalise
I was clear about this bigotry & violence over the weekend and I'll repeat it today: We must defeat white supremacy and all forms of hatred.

Chuck said...

I really do think that there is some merit to what Trump is saying. And it is a difficult argument to make in this media environment.

Which is why it takes a a careful, articulate, credible, morally superior advocate to make that argument. Yes, the argument that Trump is making has merit. It needs to be made in the best way it can be made. Which is why I have been so bitterly opposed to Trump since before he was even nominated as a presidential candidate. I want a really great advocate to make these arguments; not a guy like Trump, who carries the baggage of having questioned the place and the circumstances of President Obama's birth.

AReasonableMan said...

Achilles said...
I think it is an attempt by democrats/progressives to airbrush their role in slavery out of history. They need all of the statues of democrat leaders from the confederacy to be removed so people will forget they were democrats.


OK this is a novel theory. I can work with this. Although I am not a connoisseur of public sculpture, like our hostess, I am a generally observant kind of person yet I couldn't tell you the name of single person on one of the local sculptures found in my general locale. This is not because of early onset Alzheimers but because I have never made the effort to find out. From my perspective statues appear to be a stunningly ineffective way to encode essential historical information, such as the eternal perfidy of Democrats.

On a related note, weren't the people who first rallied against slavery do-gooder progressives?

buwaya puti said...

It is not simply confederate generals being removed, Trump is right. This is a battle between culture in general, as humans have always understood it, and the year zero, the barbarians of a peculiar blankness - because even the ancient barbarians were not this primitive, they had cultures.

Across the US the erasure encompasses everything from music to history to the literary heritage of the world, and I don't just mean European lit. To be replaced by emptiness. The whole world is not this mad, it is a very American thing.

Macaulays Horatius stood ready to die for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Do German Jews get choked up thinking about how Hitler is part of them?

Do the ancestors of slaves get choked up thinking about the folks who fought to keep their relatives in chains?

Maybe yes in both situations. But for reasons completely the opposite of what y'all are feeling.

Unknown said...

Another tweet from a Republican Congressman

Steve Stivers @RepSteveStivers
I don't understand what's so hard about this. White supremacists and Neo-Nazis are evil and shouldn't be defended.

AReasonableMan said...

Chuck said...
Which is why I have been so bitterly opposed to Trump since before he was even nominated as a presidential candidate.


Do tell.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Nice to see a little honesty in the news today.

Like the fact that he omitted/forgot which side actually killed someone and which side supports violent insurrection against the United States and the loss of half a million fighting dead?

I guess Trump is saying it's ok to take up violent revolution against the U.S. and to terrorize the people afterward - as long as it's all in the good (but long lost) cause of owning your fellow human into a life of forced servitude, family disintegration, and sexual service to the owner.

Republicans are VERY pro-owner! They don't care so much for the owned, though. Which is ironic, seeing as how thoroughly Trump owns them.

Mac McConnell said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
"Mike,

Maybe the wrong move was not ditching the statues sooner.

Maybe, the South would be so backward to this day, if a strong, harsher cleaning out had been implemented from the start. Seems to have worked for Japan and Germany.

Better late than never."

The Union did, it was call "Reconstruction" with a Union military occupation. It's main result was the paramilitary KKK insurgency.

Achilles said...

TTR said...

BTW, it seems you're the one who must be a fan of these fighters-for-slavery, since you're the one who seems to have an issue with the state no longer officially commemorating them. No matter how long the Confederate Republicans have been running the South.

This is what I said above in another post:

"They should be put in museums. Museums everyone visits. The Confederacy must never be forgotten. They shouldn't be monuments of public grounds. They should be object lessons."

Birkel said...

TTR:
That was the argument made Saturday and Sunday about Trump's Saturday statement.

The fact that he would not condemn the Leftist, Kessler, who gathered National Socialists together in Charlottesville only to be outnumbered and attacked by International Socialists, in a way approved by Leftists meant that Trump must support the Lefist National Socialist, Kessler.

That was all the rage - that bull shit strawman argument - was what I read in these very comment sections.

Since you will not sufficiently (as defined by me) criticize [INSERT BAD THING OF MY CHOOSING HERE] you are a bad person who shares that bad attribute.

Get WOKE!

buwaya puti said...

The first people to rally against slavery were Christians.

Birkel said...

Steve Scalise is correct. All right thinking people should hold National Socialists and International Socialists in poor regard.

Hop to it, Leftist Collectivists. Start the condemnation train.

wwww said...



What happened to infrastructure week?

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Achilles said: This is what I said above in another post:

"They should be put in museums..."


Ok, point taken. Mea culpa.

Long thread yet again and longer day for me until I was able to read it. Apologies.

Unknown said...


Marco Rubio
Marco Rubio @marcorubio
The organizers of events which inspired & led to #charlottesvilleterroristattack are 100% to blame for a number of reasons. 1/6
4:48 PM · Aug 15, 2017

Khesanh 0802 said...

@Lydia You left out a critical phrase from a couple of sentences prior to your quote from Lee's letter. It said "there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution is a moral & political evil in any Country." That pretty firmly states Lee's position on slavery.

Selective editing/excerpting?

Unknown said...

Paul Ryan @SpeakerRyan
We must be clear. White supremacy is repulsive. This bigotry is counter to all this country stands for. There can be no moral ambiguity.
5:01 PM · Aug 15, 2017

traditionalguy said...

Lee is not my favorite General, but it is understandable why he was so loyally supported by southerners being invaded by Armies that came down south to kill them: He was a winner that usually outfoxed the Northern Generals that had the advantages.

Think that over when you feel amazed by Trump's loyal supporters. Like Winston Churchill, he was an intelligent realist possessing total courage when that was exactly what was needed.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Is what Birkel wrote at 6:53 even worth translating into American, U.S. English?

Maybe if he put it into German or Southern it would read better.

Achilles said...

Unknown said...
Another tweet from a Republican Congressman

Steve Stivers @RepSteveStivers
I don't understand what's so hard about this. White supremacists and Neo-Nazis are evil and shouldn't be defended.


Who is defending this group organized by Obama supporters and Occupy Wall street members?

Trump certainly isn't.

He is just being honest and condemning both groups organized by Obama that participated in the violence.

Khesanh 0802 said...

@Achilles I give Trump a tremendous amount of credit for calling this mess for what it was. The level of hypocrisy surrounding this makes me nauseous.

Birkel said...

Marco Rubio is correct.
The Leftist, Obama supporting, Occupy Wall Street guy who organized the National Socialists in Charlottesville should be condemned right alongside the International Socialists. Both sides are horrible.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/jason-kessler

Jason Kessler is on the SPLC list.

Unknown said...

Today's leftists:

You, working for a living? You're a Nazi.

You, sending your kids to a religious school? You're a Nazi.

You have blonde hair. I don't care if it's dyed. You're a Nazi.

You're a stay at home mom? You're a Nazi.

You own a gun? You're DEFINITELY a Nazi.

You understand history? You're a Nazi.

You can read at a 4th grade level or higher? You're a Nazi.

--Vance

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Anyway, I sure am glad Trump's here to preside over this mess and provide all the crucial leadership we need to understand that the Southern secessionist cause was awfully legitimate and the ends they pursued then and afterward to commemorate it were just as worthy as those pursued by the United States.

You just gotta understand, guys. Slavery is just as legitimate a practice as abolition - as long as it involves violence against the United States.

That is the position of the Southern revisionists and Confederate revivalists.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Oh, that's a real genius post, Vance @6:58PM. You should consider framing it.

I'm sure it will live in internet history for all time.

AReasonableMan said...

Unknown said...
And yes, this is not the first time ARM has failed to speak up and condemn murder.
Turns out, ARM doesn't mind murder.


For the record, I am not an advocate of murdering one's fellow man (or woman). Nor am I an advocate of beating one's fellow man (or woman) senseless with a hammer. Furthermore I do not advocate that one's fellow man (or woman) should be slapped around every now and then. In fact, I do not currently, nor have I ever, beaten my wife.

Unknown said...

Marco Rubio @marcorubio
They are adherents of an evil ideology which argues certain people are inferior because of race, ethnicity or nation of origin. 2/6
4:48 PM · Aug 15, 2017

Marco Rubio @marcorubio
When entire movement built on anger & hatred towards people different than you,it justifies & ultimately leads to violence against them 3/6
4:50 PM · Aug 15, 2017

Marco Rubio @marcorubio
These groups today use SAME symbols & same arguments of #Nazi & #KKK, groups responsible for some of worst crimes against humanity ever 4/6
4:50 PM · Aug 15, 2017


Marco Rubio
Marco Rubio @marcorubio
Mr. President,you can't allow #WhiteSupremacists to share only part of blame.They support idea which cost nation & world so much pain 5/6
4:53 PM · Aug 15, 2017

Marco Rubio @marcorubio
The #WhiteSupremacy groups will see being assigned only 50% of blame as a win.We can not allow this old evil to be resurrected 6/6
4:56 PM · Aug 15, 2017

Achilles said...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...
Nice to see a little honesty in the news today.

Like the fact that he omitted/forgot which side actually killed someone and which side supports violent insurrection against the United States and the loss of half a million fighting dead?

"Unite the Right"was organized by Obama people.

Sorry you are wrong again.

Birkel said...

TTR,
What is your position on the Occupy Wall Street organizer who also organized the National Socialists to gather in Charlottesville? He supports Obama as the SPLC notes.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

For the record, I am not an advocate of murdering one's fellow man (or woman). Nor am I an advocate of beating one's fellow man (or woman) senseless with a hammer.

SAY IT LOUDER!

Their fingers are in their ears and their paranoia of other Americans is hard to overcome.

Political adversaries are criminally guilty until proven innocent, in fascist right-wing land.

dreams said...

I'm with Trump. The liberal media, the crooked Dems are going to destroy our country. They've gone crazy.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Lydia, how many Northerners do you think believed in the equality of the races at that time? Even many aboliistionists thought blacks were inferior.

Goodness knows, nobody 150 years from now will ever judge a belief that is now accepted as conventional wisdom as wrong and evil. There is no chance that we will be condemned for accepting abortion, or global warming, or meat eating or any number of issues. nah. it's impossible. modern liberals know everything they do and say is Perfect and History will always be kind to them.

The arrogance of you people knows no bounds.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Keep picking at those nits, Birkel. It's all around the margins that things matter. Nevermind the main point.

If Nazis were socialists they were pretty awful socialists, at that.

Private industry did well, under the Nazis. They just required them to channel their energies toward the state. Similar to how private military contractors do in America today.

Birkel said...

UnknownInga82,

It is nice that you take the time to mark Rubio's words against Leftists who organized National Socialists to rally in Charlottesville. I concur with Rubio and you.

International Socialists are just as evil. It's terrible that those two groups of Socialists fought. It was tragic a person died.

Where do you stand on the Obama supporter who organized the event, per the SPLC?

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

You have unicorn hair? You're a Nazi.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/fashion/rainbow-hair-for-grown-ups.html

BTW, this is way more common in Europe than here. As best as I can tell.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Where do you stand on the Obama supporter who...

Who voted for Trump?

A number of Obama voters voted for Trump. He wouldn't have won otherwise.

SO what point are you trying (not) to prove?

Brookzene said...

For the record, I am not an advocate of murdering one's fellow man (or woman). Nor am I an advocate of beating one's fellow man (or woman) senseless with a hammer. Furthermore I do not advocate that one's fellow man (or woman) should be slapped around every now and then. In fact, I do not currently, nor have I ever, beaten my wife.

I don't think we should grab 'em by the pussy either, unless they love us.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Birkel said...

TTR,
I agree that the National Socialists were terrible people who did terrible things.
Would you care to step forward and condemn International Socialists?

And I cannot understand why you support Obama, who is supported by Kessler, who organized the Charlottesville mayhem. Seems insufficiently WOKE.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

I don't think we should grab 'em by the pussy either, unless they love us.

BUt if your'e famous, they let you just go right up and do it to them.

According to a guy who apparently would really like to have women pull his orange pompadour.

Achilles said...

This article is better because after the Kesler Occupy issue is discussed it has McCain and Hillary working with Nazi's in Ukraine.

Actual saluting Nazi's. Good for the senators!

Paddy O said...

"In 1860 nearly everyone, North and South, would have felt much the same."

Sam Houston didn't. Quite a number of others didn't either. In fact about a third of Virginia itself didn't.

I think Trump made a good statement. Of course, anything he said would be evidence of to many of what they already believe about him. But it needed to be said. There's quite a number of people who aren't on either side, and it's good that Trump is reaching out as he can.

The Left wants secession, but I don't think they're going to get it this time. They're getting people to talk, and hereabouts shows the worth of hearing every side. Extremists out themselves as very like each other, and I think the country is tiring of it. Especially since it seems the organizer of Unite the Right is an Obama supporter and Occupy activist. I'm not surprised. That's precisely why it's important not to fight battles on the field people like that choose.

Dr Weevil said...

Sad that even Republicans can't bring themselves to condemn "racial supremacy" as a whole. Condemning only "white supremacy" makes it sound like you think that (e.g.) the Nation of Islam's teaching that white people are degenerate mutants created in a laboratory by an evil scientist is perfectly OK. And they're not the only non-whites who think they're genetically superior to other races: quite a few Chinese and most North Koreans do, too.

Unknown said...

Poor Chief of Staff Kelly. Watch him as Trump takes questions after agreeing not to.

n.n said...

And it begins.

Lincoln Memorial Vandalized With Red Spray Paint

With an implicit legal, political, and quasi-moral mandate.

Predominantly Black Dallas Group Forms To Protect Confederate Monuments

Everyone has their motives, and some may not be prepared to yield to history.

Speaking of history, the abortion chambers are open and normal. Never again, right?

Birkel said...

Yeah, that's the ticket, TTR. A guy who organized Occupy Wall Street and worked for Obama recognized the error of his ways, supported Trump and then participated in political theater that the press immediately used to criticize Trump.

And he totally voted for Trump. Swearsies.

Cliff Howard said...

Trump was right.
When you try and take people history away from them there will always be a fight.
When is Washington DC and Washington State going to be renamed? Washington was a slave owner and stood for some of the same principles that the Klu Lux Klan stood for

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Would you care to step forward and condemn International Socialists?

What are "International Socialists?"

The socialists who seem to be keeping their people from dying in poverty are at the national level in Western Europe and Israel - at the individual countries: Netherlands, France, Germany, etc. Some have much more business-friendly environments that America. And almost all have greater income mobility than America.

But you hate those things because you're pro-aristocracy, right?

Big Mike said...

For the record, I am not an advocate of murdering one's fellow man (or woman). Nor am I an advocate of beating one's fellow man (or woman) senseless with a hammer.

@ARM, but you're okay with rocks and bricks and baseball bats, right?

I believe you do not beat your wife because I'm pretty certain that there is no woman so desperate that she would agree to marry you.

Achilles said...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...
For the record, I am not an advocate of murdering one's fellow man (or woman). Nor am I an advocate of beating one's fellow man (or woman) senseless with a hammer.

SAY IT LOUDER!

Don't need to. You are all freaking out enough as is.

Their fingers are in their ears and their paranoia of other Americans is hard to overcome.

We aren't running around in black masks. Our leaders aren't organizing both sides in violent confrontations and using the violence to smear political opponents.

Political adversaries are criminally guilty until proven innocent, in fascist right-wing land.

Who is trying to eliminate due process? Be honest.

Brookzene said...

Washington was a slave owner and stood for some of the same principles that the Klu Lux Klan stood for

It's so fucked up that you can barely discern the difference between the Klan and George Washington. I'd get that looked at if I were you.

exiledonmainstreet said...

I think they need to rename FDR Drive in NYC and get rid of the FDR memorial.

He put Japanese-Americans in internment camps.

It's coming, Ritmo. Mark my words.

Achilles said...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...
"Would you care to step forward and condemn International Socialists?"

What are "International Socialists?"

Antifa stupid.

Brookzene said...

I believe you do not beat your wife because I'm pretty certain that there is no woman so desperate that she would agree to marry you

Sick burn.

Birkel said...

Brookzene:

Care to comment on the vandalism of the Lincoln Memorial? It may not be the conservatives here who are unable to see the distinctions you think are important.

But it's been a great day of making your Sunday argument back to you on Tuesday.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

It's coming, Ritmo. Mark my words.

It's not coming. His good deeds far outweighed his flaws - as common as they may have even been for the time. But Americans know this because they understand it's the character of the whole person or issue that matters, instead of clawing their way around the margins of every argument and person with sticks and forks the way you barbaric right-wing civilization destroyers do.

Tank said...

Well, I didn't read 320 comments, but wanted to note how amazingly happy I am that Donald Trump is our President, and not some namby pamby idiot like Jeb Bush, or even Ted Cruz. Neither of them could have stood up to tell it like it is.

Bring it Mr. President.

Birkel said...

One of the five groups that fought the National Socialists in Charlottesville was the IWW.

Those are International Socialists.

I like how TTR is so smart about so many things and then plays dumb when it suits him. It's so clever that nobody will possibly notice how disingenuous he is.

Birkel said...

No Leftist will condemn the Occupy Wall Street guy, Kessler? Is it because he supports Obama?

Really weird that you are all so, uh, coordinated.

Chuck said...


"They should be put in museums. Museums everyone visits. The Confederacy must never be forgotten. They shouldn't be monuments of public grounds. They should be object lessons."


What I have to say about this is this; listen to Professor Althouse. She has it right, and what she rightly points out is that these statues are largely the product of local fundraising and local expressions of history and ideology. The city government of Charleston enabled and helped create these monuments and the city government of Charlottesville (and elsewhere of course) can remove them.

Professor Althouse is doubly correct in observing that extra-legal means taken to vandalize these memorials should be prosecuted. If citizens of a southern city want to remove their confederate-era statuary, they can do that. For social organizations to take it upon themselves to tear down statues unlawfully is plainly criminal behavior that should not be tolerated.

buwaya puti said...

The Klan fought for power, like Washington.
Like all chieftains and partisans of their people. Washington was, on the whole, a man with the best of the antique scruples of his class, but many of his allies werent. The other side in the Revolutionary war had different opinions of your founders.

That's history. A great number of fathers of their countries and pantheons of national heroes in bronze were as bad or, usually, worse than the Klan. History is not a comfort for the honest scholar.

You can oppose their political program, preferring yours, and maybe yours is better, should there be some cosmic judge qualified to choose, but it's not a good bet that there is less evil in you than in them.

dreams said...

Obama told us he wanted to fundamentally transform American and he did with the help of the crooked liberals and the crooked liberal media.

Birkel said...

The sheriff in Durham, NC is promising prosecutions.

Rabel said...

What's really disappointing to me in all of this is the soundtrack. The sixties had much better music.

That's 1960's, not 1860's.

YoungHegelian said...

@TTR,

What are "International Socialists?"

How about guys who organized the Comintern, got together & sang the "Internationale", & thought that national lines had no bearing, but only proletarian consciousness? Stop being tendentious.

The socialists who seem to be keeping their people from dying in poverty are at the national level in Western Europe and Israel - at the individual countries: Netherlands, France, Germany, etc. Some have much more business-friendly environments that America. And almost all have greater income mobility than America.

You really believe that Euro bullshit, don't you? Have you ever been to Europe & seen the absolute despair among the unassimilated immigrant population? You think they believe in "upward mobility"? Have you seen the "bidonvilles" in the French Antilles, which are officially French provinces? Do you think that when these European lying bureaucrats come up with these numbers, they count the folks living in the concrete horrors that ring their major cities? In all honesty, they have no idea what goes on in that world within their world, & they don't care to find out.

I saw just as many beggars in the major cities of Europe as I've seen in the US. And anyone who thinks that the American middle class doesn't have a better standard of living than 85% of the population of Western Europe simply doesn't have eyes to see.

wwww said...




There is a difference between Washington and the Confederate Lee. Not to be confused with the founder-of-the-republic Lee.

Washington fought for the United Staes of America. Confederate Lee fought against the United States of America. Arlington National Cemetery was Lee's home. It was seized by the United States of America. Lee was disloyal to the USA and bore arms against it.

Washington was a creator of the USA and a soldier for its creation.

Michael said...

3rd Grade....

I suppose the backwardness of the South is the reason there is such a significant migration of blacks back here? Maybe they would have come back sooner if you and yours had the backbone to take down the irksome statues sooner rather than when it was a fashion. But then the left is governed by fashion.

But after they are all down will the little black children have fathers who support them and songs without the N word? Or will it just be time to look for another fun and destructive thing?

Dr Weevil said...

"Washington fought for the United States of America"? Indeed he did, and that made him a traitor to the British Empire, whose subject he was by birth. He would have been hanged if the redcoats had ever gotten hold of him. Doesn't anyone know any history?

Unknown said...

George Washington= Father of the Country

Robert E Lee= Traitor and insurrectionist


That Trump didn't get this simple point is pathetic. He is the POTUS, not a mouthpiece for the Alt Right White Supremacists.

Achilles said...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

It's not coming. His good deeds far outweighed his flaws - as common as they may have even been for the time. But Americans know this because they understand it's the character of the whole person or issue that matters, instead of clawing their way around the margins of every argument and person with sticks and forks the way you barbaric right-wing civilization destroyers do.

If I acted like you do, I would say this makes you a supporter of internment camps.

I don't actually disagree with FDR's version of SS. I disagree with the Republicans and Democrats who came along later and turned it into a giant ponzi scheme that is going to go bankrupt.

iowan2 said...

Another tweet from a Republican Congressman

Steve Stivers @RepSteveStivers
I don't understand what's so hard about this. White supremacists and Neo-Nazis are evil and shouldn't be defended.

8/15/17, 6:50 PM

Try this, post, even one, Republican defending White supremacists and Neo-Nazis.
(this is all so very much "when did you stop beating your wife" idiocy.

President Trump (that types so much nicer than President Clinton's wife!) is on his third iteration of naming and condeming White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis

exiledonmainstreet said...

People who have been indifferent when the antifas chant "America was never great!" And cheer when Californians speak of secession are suddenly shocked, shocked that the South has statues of those who fought against the US. Those statues have stood for well over 100 years in some cases and yet, somehow, they just discovered them.

that makes the Left look rather slow on the uptake.

Why, Bill Clinton formally authorized the inclusion of the Confederate flag in the Arkansas state one when he was governor and not a peep from the left.

Michael said...

If we had a more clever prog movement they would do as was done to the monument to Benedict Arnold the hero of the battle of Sarasota but a traitor. He was wounded badly in his leg in that battle and that leg is memorialized in stone. There is no name on the stone. Simple brass plaques stating that this Confederate General or that Confederate Soldier were traitors to their nation might have had some educational effect . But then destruction is so much more fun for the masked children.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"But after they are all down will the little black children have fathers who support them and songs without the N word? Or will it just be time to look for another fun and destructive thing?"

I dunno.

But, the little black kids won't have racist statues memorializing folks who fought for slavery in a bunch of public places.

The little white kids won't have them either.

Likewise the other colored kids.

And, adults.

Nobody will have racist statues memorializing folks who fought for slavery in a bunch of public places.

Get over it.

Achilles said...

Unknown said...
George Washington= Father of the Country

Robert E Lee= Traitor and insurrectionist


That Trump didn't get this simple point is pathetic. He is the POTUS, not a mouthpiece for the Alt Right White Supremacists.


Actual Trump quote:

"This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next? You have to ask yourself, where does it stop?”

Trump is pointing out a simple concept people with higher than room temperature IQ's recognize as a slippery slope argument.

You are just stupid.

Achilles said...

Nobody will have racist statues memorializing folks who fought for slavery in a bunch of public places.

Get over it.


In the end this is the goal. Get those monuments to democrats down so those black kids don't learn who was responsible for slavery.

Laslo Spatula said...

The intersectionality of hate, race and history bisects the past to allow clear direction for the future. A true understanding of this paradigm requires one to understand that we are living in the future's past, and our actions must respond accordingly...

The use of statutes is literally the attempt to set the past in stone. To honor a statue is to acquiesce to the oppression of time, an act of making the political geological. As such, it is easier to understand hate, race and history as tectonic in nature, and to welcome what comes to break in sociological earthquakes...

Monuments function as the markers of tyranny: they attempt to control thought in the same manner as the sculptor controlled the stone. Each piece of sculpture that stands is a reminder of what was chipped away and discarded, never to be considered inclusive of the representation of the statue's totality...

Thus, in the sociological shadow of the statue we are no more than slaves to its creators, and the statue functions as a constant reminder of this condition. Under such oppression it becomes obvious that history is not to be made, but rather to be broken....

I am Laslo.

Michael said...

Saratoga not Sarasota.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Trump is pointing out a simple concept people with higher than room temperature IQ's recognize as a slippery slope argument.

No he's not. And his own IQ is already pretty low. And a slippery slope is not an "argument." It's a fallacy = the opposite of an argument.

"This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next? You have to ask yourself, where does it stop?”

It stops with people who take up violence and arms against the United States. Not a difficult concept to get, really. Unless you believe in violence and in attacking the United States.

Birkel said...

Washington owned slaves. Anybody who support Washington supports slavery.

#LeftistLogic

Rick said...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

I'm still waiting for you to explain your belief Reagan's capitalism has left the common man worse off given even the lowest quintile of American earners has seen their real income increase 46% since 1979.

Have you wondered why you believe so many things that just ain't so? Are you ready to question how you came to be so misled?

Michael said...

3rd Grade . See my post re simple brass plaques on each statue that states a traitor is here memorialized. Wouldn't that be more instructive? Not destructive but instructive?

Unknown said...

"Fox News’s Kat Timpf slammed President Trump on Tuesday for his “disgusting” press conference in which he again blamed “both sides” for the violence that occurred in Charlottesville, Va. over the weekend, stepping back from his direct condemnation of white supremacist groups a day earlier.

“It was one of the biggest messes I’ve ever seen. I can’t believe it happened,” said Timpf, a co-host of “The Fox News Specialists.”

“It is honestly crazy for me to have to comment on this right now because I’m still in the phase where I am wondering if it was actually real life — what I just watched.”"

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Didn't Robert Byrd(D) have all sorts of infrastructure named after him?
Highway, bridges, buildings and wotnot?


The Toothless Revolutionary said...

If I acted like you do, I would say this makes you a supporter of internment camps.

Was there a civil war fought in reference to internment camps? If so, and if it killed half a million Americans, I think it would be easier to moralize the position taken on it.

This is why Lincoln was great and Andy Johnson sucked. And even US Grant left a lot to be desired. The people who took the strong pro-U.S. stance are venerated. No one cares for the confederate appeasers like Johnson, or even whatever one-step-forward-two-steps-back Grant took. Those were the equivocators who couldn't or didn't have the political courage to force the right stand through to its conclusion. Much like the equivocators today. Confederate-revivalists and even Nazi-simps.

They're on the wrong side. Integration is the right side.

iowan2 said...

buwaya puti
8/15/17, 7:24 PM

This is why I wade through these comments. To find gems like this. Content the trolls run from with all their fears chasing them.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Mike,

If you must have statues. Why not making them all honor someone that represents the best of America? We can replace all the racist slave fighter statues w/ statues of BHO. He, like Washington, was an anti-colonialist who became president.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Keep repeating it, Birkel. You're not convincing yourself hard enough.

Birkel said...

A slippery slope argument is a fine argument. The questions are how steep, how slippery and what off-ramps exist.

The CTRL-Leftists will never be sated.

Michael said...

On October 11 1776 Benedict Arnold led his valiant forces in the battle of Valcour. There is a monument. Find it and tear it down.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

7:43 Achilles

In the end this is the goal. Get those monuments to democrats down so those black kids don't learn who was responsible for slavery.

I think that's actually a big part of it. Right after the "we hate Trump, & we get to show our anger any way we want." antifa fascist group-think.

Brookzene said...

You are just stupid.

And a traitorous Stalinist to boot.

Laslo Spatula said...

The statue of a white male -- as most statues obviously are -- is a depiction of that white male frozen in time, with his thoughts likewise frozen. The statue is not capable of forward thought, and ironically statues are generally made of those incapable of forward thought...

The most honored statue is still but a representation of thoughts that will not be countered, for opposing thoughts necessarily fall on stone ears...

But even if a statue is removed, the oppression remains: it's location will always be described by the oppressors as where the statue was. Thus, it is obvious that there is more required than removing a statue: what good is the absence of the statue when the pedestal of thought remains in hearts and minds...?

I am Laslo.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

It would have been even higher rick if inequality hadn't widened so much and the unions been decimated. But it's good that billionaires have a champion for their cause in you. More of the gains should have gone to them than have gone to them, obviously.

Birkel said...

Brilliant, Laslo.

Michael said...

3rd Grade
Statues depicting humans and horses in their form are hard to come by these days what with modern artists having no such representational skills. Better to rename the ones we have. Instead of Robert E Lee on Traveler sand down the name and put up Bill Clinton. Or Hillary for that matter. I am not big on barbarian destruction for the childish thrill. See the video of the toppling of a minor figure's statue in Durham and see the children laugh and jump up and down. That was really something wasn't it? Almost like going arm and arm across the Pettus bridge.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Bottom line is we must continually fall all over ourselves condemning and apologizing for the 0.03% KKK.

We must look the other way when mask wearing antifa fascists break things.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

So, why not Hitler statues, guys?

What's wrong with greater honors for the valiant losers of that awesome war?

Causes are causes. Causes, schmauses. You fight for union and abolition, we fight to shred the constitution and expand a slave-empire to South America. Big deal! We both died! Isn't that so much more important than which cause rightly won?

Someday soon I look forward to all those Viet Cong status that you'll erect.

Achilles said...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...
"Trump is pointing out a simple concept people with higher than room temperature IQ's recognize as a slippery slope argument."

No he's not. And his own IQ is already pretty low. And a slippery slope is not an "argument." It's a fallacy = the opposite of an argument.

That was stupid. Getting a bit angry now? Things hitting a little too close to home?

"This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next? You have to ask yourself, where does it stop?”

It stops with people who take up violence and arms against the United States. Not a difficult concept to get, really. Unless you believe in violence and in attacking the United States.

History happened. The statues are a reminder of the good parts and the bad parts. If you want to move them to a museum or some other place where they will always be there to remind us what happened and take them off of some specific place fine.

But democrats/progressives would rather we forgot a lot of the bad parts.

And I look forward to your condemnations of California progressives trying to secede right now.

Birkel said...

In some alternate reality that cannot be disproved, TTR wins an argument about economics.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Nidal Hassan and Tim McVeigh fought for the U.S. and valiantly for their own beliefs, as well. Statues! History!

Put 'em up!

Achilles said...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...
So, why not Hitler statues, guys?

What's wrong with greater honors for the valiant losers of that awesome war?


That is one of the most creative ways to invoke Godwin's law yet.

And yes you just lost the argument.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

That was stupid.

And this is not a rebuttal. It is just a stupid opinion. They must have wiped the floor with you in debate team.

Brookzene said...

Bottom line is we must continually fall all over ourselves condemning and apologizing for the 0.03% KKK.

Because of your particular poor nature you should continually fall over and apologize for yourself only. You don't have time to apologize for others.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Toothless Revolutionary said...

That is one of the most creative ways to invoke Godwin's law yet.

Not as creative as your contention that commemorating anti-U.S. slave-owners is ok, as long as that anti-U.S. slave-owner was not a German with a little mustache.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Put on your goggles. Toothless crossed the dumb-shit Rubicon.

Ralph L said...

Bombay Curry House
I've had some poisonous food there. Rockwell was assassinated by a disgruntled follower when doing his laundry on Wilson Blvd. One of the regulars at JOM owns the building. That area is too pricey for the Nazis now.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Bill Ayers fought valiantly for his own beliefs, against the U.S.

Put up the statues! Statues, statues!

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"Statues depicting humans and horses in their form are hard to come by these days what with modern artists having no such representational skills."

No problem.

A five axis waterjet cnc w/ an indexer and a programmer (obviously a man's job), and it's ease pees.

Start cranking out BHO's. We're gonna need to replace a bunch of folks who fought to keep slavery in the South.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Been a while since you've been dicked, Rene?

Rick said...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...
It would have been even higher rick if inequality hadn't widened so much and the unions been decimated.


Sure. If world history shows us anything it's that people work harder when others benefit instead of them. Maybe if you keep whispering to yourself it will be enough.

More of the gains should have gone to them than have gone to them, obviously.

I see you've consoled yourself with the dregs of intellect yet again.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Nidal Hassan is already a statue in Obama's basement.

mockturtle said...

Exiled says: Lydia, how many Northerners do you think believed in the equality of the races at that time? Even many abolitionists thought blacks were inferior.

In Uncle Tom's Cabin, Harriet Beecher Stowe addressed the hypocrisy of the North. She pointed out the physical closeness of whites and slaves in the South, even under condition of slavery, which many New Englanders who talked racial equality, found abhorrent. Her brother, Henry Ward Beecher, a well-known abolitionist preacher, is my ancestor.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Nidal Hasan and Tim McVeigh fought against the tyrannical U.S. federal government.

Erect the statues! Statues, statues! HISTORY! LONG LIVE HISTORY!

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

We may need a spindle and diamond bit for the detail stuff.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

For Levity - I recommend Chuck at 7:22.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Rick - I'm so sorry to hear that the billionaires don't love you, no matter how much of their bidding you shill for.

But at least you got to bring your spoiled sloppy seconds on that argument from a different day over to here. That must feel good.

Michael said...

TTR
Interesting, as brilliant as you are, that you have just come to know that statues commemorating Confederates are strewn all over the country. Where was your umbrage before it became fashionable to decide they should go? You did not give one shit die you? And, by the way, neither did I. I have lived in the South most of my life and I have never once heard a single soul whining about any of these statues. Sadly, even today, I would make a pretty sizable wager that very very few people white or black in any town can tell the name of the man on the horse in the square. These old ornaments, until now, have been ignored. For what its worth nobody was "honoring" those figures. They were put there by people long dead and gone. And very soon they will be gone and the people who took them down will be long dead and gone. Better scoop up the pictures of them. History lives on the internets.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Long live the attacks on Fort Sumter AND Fort Hood!

Commemorate history!

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Hillary has a sekkkrit statue of Omar Mateen in a shoebox in her closet.
Hollywood is going to hand out Omar Mateen statues at the Oscars this year.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Been a while since you've been dicked, Rene?

Wouldn't you like to know. Do I need to provide footage?

Birkel said...

Yes, why don't those (almost exclusively) Democrat billionaires give more. They profess to want to do so. Busy people must not find the time.

They do all seem to enjoy extracting wealth from the federal government. Adam Smith knew human nature.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

I have lived in the South most of my life...

Oh, so that explains how you got to be so lazy and so welcoming of laziness in as many others as possible.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"Do I need to provide footage?"

Wouldn't you be on the receiving end?

And, isn't it inchage?


The Toothless Revolutionary said...

Adam Smith knew human nature.

But you don't and that is why what you argue for is the opposite of what he argued:

“The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess …. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

Time to go fuck your useless self, Birkel.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Local Historical Civil War bronze statues that have stood for decades and decades, even thru the perfect epoch unicorn years of Obama - all those statues were A-OK.

Now? THEY SUCK MAN. Hitler and stuff.

n.n said...

Trump was right. The NYT is, once again, wrong. Principles before principals, NYT.

Also, while the color nationals have little standing and leverage, the antifa factions have both. So, it is the latter who pose the greater risk to civil and human rights, to diversity (of individuals), to the People and our Posterity, and to the stability of our society.

Birkel said...

I am so glad TTR is here to advocate European poverty for America.

https://mises.org/blog/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-states-they-would-be-among-poorest-states

That Reagan was just horrible what with making England poorer than Mississippi.

mockturtle said...

Dickin' says: For Levity - I recommend Chuck at 7:22.

He's really been kissing ass since Althouse threatened to kick him to the curb.

Birkel said...

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”
--Adam Smith

This is why billionaire Leftists love government. One stop shopping.

Renee said...

Everyone I'd convince Trump is really Hitler. And I don't know what to think, they can't fathom I questioning them.

The media is winning.

Michael said...

TTM
Look do you go on a rage every time your boyfriend slaps you? Jesus. Talk about lazy. I assume you were referring to the majority black citizens of my fair city. Calling them lazy is both wrong and a no no. Your boyfriend will be back. He always comes back because you are paying the bills right?

dreams said...

It's good to know that there are still some sane people in this country.

"The AP never questions, however, that what Trump said was true. In fact, it was indisputable. The antifas, a fascist group that has also rioted at Berkeley, Seattle and other places, typically wears black clothes and masks, arms its members with baseball bats, ax handles and 2x4s, and often attacks random people on the street. Its behavior in Charlottesville was not much better than usual. New York Times reporter Sheryl Gay Stolberg tweeted, “The hard left seemed as hate-filled as alt-right. I saw club-wielding ‘antifa’ beating white nationalists being led out of the park.”"

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/08/trump-tells-the-truth-and-the-press-goes-crazy.php

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Mock Turtle -

yes.
It's still a good post.
So is your post @ 8:05.

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