It's not a completely over-the-top get-Trump effort. Notice that last headline: "Trump Jr. could be in legal jeopardy, but analysts say more would be required for a criminal case."
Further down on the page, there's "This is the mother of all tipping points" and "This is no ‘rookie mistake.’ The Trump team shouldn’t even be on the field," but also "President says Donald Trump Jr. is ‘open, transparent and innocent’" and "Is Donald Trump Jr.’s ‘I love it’ email a smoking gun or a distraction?"
And there are still plenty of other stories making it onto the website's front page, including the one I personally find most interesting: "A Chinese umbrella-sharing start-up just lost nearly all of its 300,000 umbrellas." I also like "Three Americans who thwarted 2015 Paris train attack to play selves in Clint Eastwood movie."
Anyway, I wonder what scheming is going on behind the scenes at The Washington Post. I'm imagining that they are thinking This is it, we have him now. But how to play the hand? Over-eagerness could backfire, but if this thing is going to work, this is the moment, we must go all-in. And yet if we show that's what we are doing, it may put off some people whose support we need. We may look bloodthirsty and weird to them. How far, exactly, do we go? And what, exactly, do we want?
AND: On that last question — what, exactly, do we want? — I don't think it should be clear to a Trump-hater that the goal should be impeachment/resignation. Look at Mike Pence. He's ready to go, clean and untouched by these Trump troubles. Why give the Republicans a fresh start? I suspect that the goal is to immobilize Trump. Keep him, but freeze him. But how can we get by with an incapacitated President?
Posts
218 comments:
1 – 200 of 218 Newer› Newest»WaPo has taken a lesson from the Great Meme War, haven't they?
When this crap blows over they won't look quite so hysterical as many other failing news outlets.
There is absolutely nothing here. The Russian woman lawyer lied to get a meeting. It may well have been a setup.
Where is that missing jet?
The picture on the web page is the one that intrigues me. Why was Natalia Veselnitskaya sitting directly behind the U.S. Ambassador to Russia during a congressional hearing? This hearing took place days after she met with Fredo Trump. There's a story here, but it's not the one we're getting from the breathless headlines.
"Plunges into chaos."
Puh-leez.
Stopped at an auto place yesterday afternoon to make a car appointment. CNN was playing in the waiting area. The anchor and guest were almost hyperventilating about how this will final get Trump. "At very least this is treason".
Well, at least the left is now anxious to charge U.S. citizens with treason. I guess that is a step forward.
Giddy jubilation, not scheming.
But it still looks like a rather transparent set-up that Don Jr. fell for. Manafort should have known better, so I wonder how come he did not smell a rat.
It makes me tired. My political friends are tumbled into a frenzy. Everyone wants the hail mary.
@Mr. D -- Fredo Trump is a great use of Fredo.
Newspapers die in stupidity.
That Washington Post is jonesing for a strong river current.
ALAN DERSHOWITZ: “Obviously if anyone conspired in advance with another to commit a crime – such as hacking the DNC – that would be criminal. But merely seeking to obtain the work product of a prior hack would be no more criminal than a newspaper publishing the work product of thefts such as the Pentagon Papers and the material stolen by Snowden and Manning.”
Stopped at an auto place yesterday afternoon to make a car appointment. CNN was playing in the waiting area. The anchor and guest were almost hyperventilating about how this will final get Trump. "At very least this is treason".
Yes I'm sure they said "At the very least this is treason." You righties and your media fantasies. You gotta work a little harder to beat Althouse's imaginings however.
Mr. D said...
The picture on the web page is the one that intrigues me. Why was Natalia Veselnitskaya sitting directly behind the U.S. Ambassador to Russia during a congressional hearing
Yesterday the only place I saw that photo was on the Gateway Pundit linked by Drudge. I can't imagine Ms. Veselnitskaya is a mystery if she is sitting front and center at a congressional hearing.
I doubt the British publicist who got her the meeting at Trump tower is the one who got her the rock star seat at the hearing. Wonder if the Post put the picture front and center to try and diffuse it.
I'm imagining that they are thinking This is it, we have him now. But how to play the hand? Over-eagerness could backfire, but if this thing is going to work, this is the moment, we must go all-in. And yet if we show that's what we are doing, it may put off some people whose support we need. We may look bloodthirsty and weird to them. How far, exactly, do we go? And what, exactly, do we want?
Now that's a frenzy.
Bezos must be enjoying this. He prints his own personal MAD Magazine daily. And he loves the Spy on Spy section.
what exactly does wapo want? Same as always. Impeachment. And a do-over so Hillary can take what was rightfully denied her, returning to the building on election night where she will symbolically break the glass ceiling and the tears will be happy tears of joy this time and they can print stories about how we must all accept the results of an election.
And a movie about them starring Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman.
Yes I'm sure they said "At the very least this is treason." You righties and your media fantasies. You gotta work a little harder to beat Althouse's imaginings however.
Not sure who was on the TV when I saw it, but here is Ol'Tim Kaine saying Treason:
Kaine: Trump Jr. may have committed treason
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/11/politics/tim-kaine-donald-trump-jr/index.html
It still sounds like my dog chasing birds that always get up and fly away just as he arrives there.
The left has not been this hysterical since they were defending Alger Hiss.
Slate was pushing the this is a smoking gun of campaign finance law violation, on the grounds that the information was a thing of value, and it was illegal for Trump Jr. to solicit it, even if he didn't receive it.
1) Is there any precedent for information, not specifically produced for a campaign, being treated as something of value in terms of campaign finance laws? Wouldn't this require every campaign to disclose every piece of information offered to them by every campaign volunteer, along with its dollar value? ( Campaign Volunteer: We should hold a bake sale at the local college campus. Campaign, noting that the bake sale brought in $200 , must now report not just the income from the bake sale, but the $200 value of the suggestion, as an in-kind contribution from that volunteer. Seriously?
2) At any point in the email chain, did Trump Jr. solicit the information? Yes, he agreed to a meeting, and indicated that he would like the information. But he never asked for it. In fact, he never emailed the person who supposedly had the information, and did not ask the intermediary to ask the person for the information. Maybe he would have asked at the meeting, but the emails do not cover what happened at the meeting.
3) An iron-clad defense for Trump Jr. would be to simply state that, if the information had value, the campaign intended to pay what it was worth. Boom, not a contribution. Not illegal.
Kaine: Trump Jr. may have committed treason
Yes, I saw Kaine use the treason word. It was ill-advised imo. On the other hand a little further down the road and he may look prescient.
What exactly does WaPo want? Same as always. Impeachment. And a do-over so Hillary can take what was rightfully denied her
What they want is to make money, and be "relevant". The rest is just gravy.
Look carefully at the wording of the offer email--"Crown Prosecutor" "Russian Government", etc. These were words designed to be flagged by the NSA, and we already know several FISA warrants were requested with at least one being turned down and one granted. We also know that NSA head Mike Rogers briefed Trump Sr. before the inauguration, and the other intelligence heads (Brennan, Clapper) wanted Rogers to be fired by Obama for doing so. Notice also that Rogers is still in his job, and after said briefing Trump Sr. made his "wiretapped Trump Tower" tweet--Trump Tower being where this earlier meeting was held by Trump Jr. This was a plain set-up to justify a FISA warrant, with subsequent unmasking and leaking. Trump knows this to be so based upon Rogers info, and Rice, Powers, Brennan, and Rhodes should be concerned that they are in legal jeopardy when the cookie box gets opened.
That moved from "hacking the election" to "wanting opposition research" (is that a crime?
I'm with Dershowitz) without a pause for breath. Is there no end to this criminality? O tempora o mores!
In a calmer environment, we might look at this and ask ourselves, is there anything unusual here? How does this compare with the news coverage of Secretay Clinton's unilaterally destroying 33,000 emails that she improperly maintained on an insecure home-brew email system? How do the actions of a candidate's son meeting with someone who offered incriminating government records of a sovereign nation compare with the Attorney General holding a private, off-the-record meeting with a candidate's husband shortly before a criminal investigation of the candidate was shut down?
In short, this is amusing and mildly interesting. It shows how unready for prime time the Trump campaign was in mid-2016. How did he win? Mostly because sufficient voters were fed up with the way our political class has been operating for 30 years. They are still at it, and they won't stop.
Are we at war with Russia now?
What most media seem to be missing in this latest hysteria is that a large segment of the public has no real interest in the whole Russia thing.
To sum up:
I. Don't. Care.
A cursory glance tells you that the whole story is overblown BS.
but again, I don't care.
Will this fix health care?
Is the tax code dependent on this story?
Are stuck on stupid regulations being reformed by a meeting with some Russian chick?
Federal appointments studied and moved forward?
Memo to the media: The election is over. Trump won, and now what is important is how the country is governed. Why are you so afraid to discuss important issues that you waste all this column space on specious nonsense?
CNN isn't the only leader in the fake-news business. MSNBC, NYT,and WaPo ceratinly deserve their fair share of the title.
Brookzene, I agree with Kaine. Les start charging US citizens with treason.
-Jane Fonda, please report to Terre Haute for your execution.
-Kaines son is charged with assault and battery in St Paul. Can we drum up some treason charges on him?
The only smoking gun was at the Steve Scalise shooting.
This kakistocracy is damaging America! Lying, deceiving, bullying etc is part of the family business apparently...
"Trump Jr. could be in legal jeopardy, but analysts say more would be required for a criminal case."
That sentence describes any one of us. It is the very essence of fake news to pretend otherwise.
"How can we get by with an incapacitated President?"
That doesn't matter - all that matters is being in power.
"There is absolutely nothing here. The Russian woman lawyer lied to get a meeting. It may well have been a setup. Where is that missing jet?"
That's a defense that wouldn't work in criminal case where the government pulls off a sting. The guy your client tried to by drugs from turned out to be a cop who arrested him.
In this case, the problem is that Don Jr. showed enthusiasm for getting information from the Russian government and that he believed and loved the idea that the Russian government was trying to help Trump win.
What if the "Russian woman lawyer" was working with some Project Veritas-type group, giving a totally phony story just to get in there and get secret video of Don Jr. saying damaging things? When you see those Project Veritas videos, do you dismiss them as nothing because one side is fake? The side you care about is tricked, and what that person says counts, because it reveals how they think.
How can we get by with an incapacitated President?
Moot point. Hillary didn't win.
"In this case, the problem is that Don Jr. showed enthusiasm for getting information from the Russian government and that he believed and loved the idea that the Russian government was trying to help Trump win."
And as Dershowitz has pointed out yet again -- that isn't a crime.
I told Junior to send Chuck . . .
"When you see those Project Veritas videos, do you dismiss them as nothing because one side is fake?"
Seems to work for the Democrats.
A much more fantastic and excellent story is Russian meddling in the U.S. environmental policy debate. Power Line quotes from this Wall St. J. article...
"There is evidence, though, that Russia has colluded with U.S. environmental groups. Lamar Smith, chairman of the House Science Committee, tells James Freeman of the Wall Street Journal:
If you connect the dots, it is clear that Russia is funding U.S. environmental groups in an effort to suppress our domestic oil and gas industry, specifically hydraulic fracking. They have established an elaborate scheme that funnels money through shell companies in Bermuda. This scheme may violate federal law and certainly distorts the U.S. energy market. The American people deserve to know the truth and I am confident Secretary Mnuchin will investigate the allegations.
To help Sec. Mnuchin conduct such an investigation, Rep. Smith, along with Energy Subcommittee Chairman Randy Weber, sent him a letter. They noted:
According to the former Secretary General of NATO, “Russia, as part of their sophisticated information and disinformation operations, engaged actively with so-called nongovernmental organizations – environmental organizations working against shale gas – to maintain dependence on imported Russian gas.” Other officials have indicated the same scheme is unfolding in the U.S."
If I were a reporter, I'd want to talk with the top people at those NGOs and try to look into their personal connections with Russia. A fantastic story.
"the goal is to immobilize Trump. Keep him, but freeze him."
So the Washington Post, the Democratic Party and Russia have their interests aligned.
Nearly every block in NYC has someone selling Chinese umbrellas for $5 when it's sunny and $8 when it's cats and dogs. Some businesses are resistant to disruption from an app from twenty-somethings.
George Soros is a Russian citizen (Ukranian). Hr couldn't have been more involved in Hillary's campaign.
If someone sent me an email and said they had some drugs for sale, let's have a meeting, and I say "I love it!" If I show up at that meeting, have I committed a crime? No fucking way.
"When you see those Project Veritas videos, do you dismiss them as nothing because one side is fake?"
IT'S BEEN EDITED!
-Jane Fonda, please report to Terre Haute for your execution.
I know. But can you imagine, treason in the White House? Oy vey. That would be some history. I mean, I loved Barefoot in the Park and Klute, but you guys voted for this cabal to occupy the White House.
"the goal is to immobilize Trump. Keep him, but freeze him."
The immediate goal isn't Trump but to peel off two or three weenies in the Senate.
This is looking more and more like some sort of Obama op.
What if the "Russian woman lawyer" was working with some Project Veritas-type group, giving a totally phony story just to get in there and get secret video of Don Jr. saying damaging things?
What if she was working with the Obama admin to set up Trump ?
The complaint called Veselnitskaya, Fusion GPS, and Rinat Akhmetshin — reportedly a former Russian GRU counterintelligence officer — “the cohort of Russian agents allegedly involved in the ongoing effort to undermine the Magnitsky Act.” That Act of Congress, by the way, is named for Sergei Magnitsky, a Russian attorney who, after reporting large-scale Russian corruption, was arrested and died in custody under suspicious circumstances.
Is it just a coincidence that Veselnitskaya was aligned with a group that was developing a dossier on Donald Trump?
In his letter, Grassley says that Veselnitskaya’s unlawful presence in the U.S. at the time of the meeting at Trump Tower “raises serious questions about whether the Obama administration authorized her to remain in the country, and if so, why?” I agree.
She was in the country illegally and had gone back and forth to Russia after her visa was denied.
What's going on ?
Does this have anything to do with the Obama people setting up surveillance of Trump BEFORE the meeting ?
Natalia Veselnitskaya was/is also a very vocal anti-Trump person on all of her social media accounts – SEE FACEBOOK ARCHIVE HERE – So why would someone with a disposition of being anti-Trump want to deliver information to Donald Trump Jr? …Especially considering Ms. Veselnitskaya was never identified within the original email request for a meeting? ….and Donald Trump Jr. said, correctly it appears, that he had no idea whom he would be meeting with(?) .
It’s enough to make you wonder what exactly is the nature of the relationship between Natalia Veselnitskaya and President Obama’s appointees such that they would be visibly working together only a few days after her reported meeting with Donald Trump Jr. in Trump Tower….
This was a setup but not by Veritas.
And as Dershowitz has pointed out yet again -- that isn't a crime.
Doesn't matter. RESISTANCE!!
What if the "Russian woman lawyer" was working with some Project Veritas-type group, giving a totally phony story just to get in there and get secret video of Don Jr. saying damaging things?
A very fair point. But it doesn't seem like a Project Veritas group would be invited to sit front and center at a congressional hearing. Was this the FBI or something connected to the Obama White House used to get permission to monitor Trump tower? Is it connected to the piss on the bed dossier?
At what point did our Federal Gov't decide it was time to infiltrate the Trump campaign? I'd bet this is so much dirtier than "Trump colluded with the Russians".
Natalia Veselnitskaya was/is also a very vocal anti-Trump person
Another fish in the sea for a famous commenter here.
Brookz....I watched The China Syndrome the other night. Leftwingers make great propaganda films. Too bad Mother Earth is baking because of the anti-Nuke people.
"Well, at least the left is now anxious to charge U.S. citizens with treason. I guess that's a step forward."
By what effing measure is that a step forward?
This is what CTH is so good at.
I have literally spent days reading these long posts on other examples, like the Trayvon Martin case, which they had all the information on.
I'll probably send an hour now reading this long post and I recommend that anyone who has the time and interest do so, as well.
harro, I was being sarcastic. The anti-American left has been going after our nation for decades. Now suddenly they see treason?
"By what effing measure is that a step forward?"
Since Alger Hiss but that was back in the dark ages when Democrats really liked Russians.
Hey Dave for got about CS. I remember seeing it when it came out just about the exact moment of the 3-Mile Island thing. Wow! Pretty good movie, but production values and script were a little weak imo.
Have no idea what you mean about earth baking b/c of anti-nuke people. Can't believe the temps in AZ this season. Cheers.
Emin is a grandson (or step-grandson) of Ilham Aliyev, the billionaire dictator of Azerbaijan. Aliyev's daughter was married to the father of Emin.
In that regard, here is an interesting article published by the EurasiaNet website on November 7, the day before the US Presidential election.
[quote]
Azerbaijan: Could Baku Have Access to a Clinton White House?
... For the past seven years, the Podesta Group, a high-powered Washington lobbying firm, has handled networking and image-building for Azerbaijan’s embassy in the United States. ....
The Podesta Group’s chief executive officer is 73-year-old Tony Podesta, who has acted as a major fundraiser for the Clinton campaign. In addition, Podesta’s 67-year-old brother, John, serves as Clinton’s campaign chairman, and previously served as former president Bill Clinton’s chief of staff.
John Podesta co-founded the firm, but has not been directly involved in the Podesta Group since 1993. As Clinton’s campaign chairman and, potentially, a future official or adviser in a Clinton administration, he could potentially be of help in enabling Azerbaijani officials, via the Podesta Group, to gain access to White House officials ...
The Azerbaijani embassy’s current contract with the Podesta Group runs until the end of the year [2016], according to documents obtained from the Department of Justice’s Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) registry. The embassy pays Podesta a monthly fee of $45,000.
Aside from encounters with senators and congressional representatives, media and non-governmental organizations, the Podesta Group has agreed to arrange meetings with “executive branch officials,” at the embassy’s request. ...
Clinton is not the only presidential candidate with a link to Azerbaijan. Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump earlier partnered with the controversial Azerbaijani businessman Anar Mammadov, son of Transportation Minister Ziya Mammadov, on a project to erect Trump Towers in Baku. That project appears to have stalled, however. ...
[end quote]
http://www.eurasianet.org/node/81186
Michael K,
Hiss notwithstanding, I can't really believe you want to wax nostalgia about an eagerness to charge American citizens with treason.
Dave,
I'm pretty far to the left of the host and most commenters, and I'm glad to see you were kidding.
Not everyone who didn't vote for Trump is in Russia Mode, fwiw
Harrogate, I was also sarcastic. The left thinks history began in 2008 or maybe when Nixon was driven from office by Mark Felt in 1974.
"If someone sent me an email and said they had some drugs for sale, let's have a meeting, and I say 'I love it!' If I show up at that meeting, have I committed a crime? No fucking way."
You'd be surprised what the drug cops and prosecutors might say about that. You can bet they would arrest you and try to prosecute you for "conspiracy to...blah, blah, somethingorother...."
That's were we are now in this country: we are an overt police state.
Good comment, Mike Sylvester.
I have wondered why this did not come out before and I think that might be because it is an exploding cigar for Obama/Clinton.
Hillary was hip deep with Azerbaijan all along. These people are all from there.
A "former British intelligence officer" prepares a dossier on Trump alleging he peed on beds in Russia. The media/DC front page this fake news, Comey even absurdly presents it to Trump as intelligence. That is a foreign agent interfering with our election.
Trump Jr takes a meeting with someone claiming to offer the same exact type of material prepared by the " former British intelligence officer" except it comes from Russia. The media/DC start screaming about treason and collusion.
Does anyone doubt that someone in the Clinton campaign took a meeting with those peddling the pee dossier prepared by a foreign agent?
So Tim Kaine and others call it "Treason".
Yet we know, with certainty, that the Hillary campaign actively sat down with people from the government of the Ukraine to dig up dirt on Trump. This is the very "crime" that Trump Jr. is now accused of--colluding with a foreign government to seek political dirt.
Unlike Trump Jr, which is appearing more and more like a dirty op by the Obama administration, the Hillary-Ukrainian government connection is solid and very well documented. They actually did get stuff they threw at Manafort, who likely got fired for it.
So why aren't we jailing the Hillary campaign people here? Would you like to comment on Hillary's actions with the Ukrainian government, Brookzene? Why are you not howling for her head?
--Vance
I live in NYC and know a lot of Democrats. They are all ready for President Pence, come what may.
umbrella-sharing
It's renting, not sharing. Do they use the wrong word because some of their advertisers are rental companies that also use the wrong word, perhaps because "sharing" sounds nicer than "renting"?
Yet we know, with certainty, that the Hillary campaign actively sat down with people from the government of the Ukraine to dig up dirt on Trump
Link?
MOAR BUTT HURT FROM WAPO TO THEIR DEAR CORRUPT HILLRY
I've already written this off, I just don't give a damn. There doesn't seem to be any traction here except among the already crazy, who think they are living in the end times. And yet, the sun also rises.
Ann Althouse said...
"In this case, the problem is that Don Jr. showed enthusiasm for getting information from the Russian government and that he believed and loved the idea that the Russian government was trying to help Trump win."
That's not how I read his "... if it's what you say I love it..."
I read that as him loving the idea that there's evidence that would incriminate Hillary Clinton.
It's not clear why he would care where that evidence came from, as long as it was credible and verifiable.
Remember that this was before any of the hysteria about Russia. So there's no particular reason that the source should have raised any red flags, beyond the need to be able to independently verify whatever information they might have.
"That's a defense that wouldn't work in criminal case where the government pulls off a sting. The guy your client tried to by drugs from turned out to be a cop who arrested him."
Are we talking about a criminal case? What law was violated?
Also, those who have been around for a while will remember that John DeLorean successfully used exactly the defense Althouse is poo-pooing in his trial for cocaine trafficking.
Ugh, President Pence. Given the shameless sycophancy he shows towards Trump he is likely to be a terrible president. Still it would take the office out of someone who I think is patently unfit. No good endgames here, unless Trump suddenly became someone he is not.
They might try, Cookie, but it wouldn't be prosecuted, and would incur a false imprisonment suit. If I'd have replied "Yes I'll buy some!" and then shown up they might have a better shot, but saying "I love it!" wouldn't hold water.
Brookzene: Here's a link from January and Politico detailing the Ukrainian-Hillary connection:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446
Skip the first few paragraphs of Russian fear mongering and you'll read the sordid tale of Alexandra Chalupa, who appears to have been the "go-to" girl and coordinator of a whole long string of Ukranian officials targeting Paul Manafort and other Trump stuff. She passed it on the DNC, the campaign, and also apparently had the ear of most journalists "off the record" to spill her dirt.
So why isn't she in jail? If, that is, working with foreign governments to dig up dirt on political opponents is such a terrible thing?
--Vance
Expecting Hillary opposition research and not getting it is an Impeachable offense?
The goal in all of this is to cut through the double talk, the changing stories and lies and determine the many ways Russia tried to influence the election results, any findings of collusion with the Trump campaign, if they exist beyond the questionable acts of Flynn and Manafort is secondary.
Vance - The media and the democrat party are allowed to do all the opposition research they want.
Nobody is allowed to say a bad word about precious corrupt Hillary.
This is Citizens United all over again. Citizens are not allowed to Unite against Hillary. It is illegal to dig for dirt on Dear Hillary, the anointed.
No one doubts that some Russians are trying to get the sanctions removed, and they are trying to get elected officials in the U.S. to help them. Putin may be behind these efforts--it is certainly hard to believe that anything big goes on in Russia without his knowledge. There was lots of lobbying in Washington in a pro-Russian direction in 2016. It might be true that many of the pro-Russian lobbyists were Democrats, but surely Trump and Hillary both know lots of people, for example, who have made money by laundering Russian money. Does the Steele dossier suggest that the Russians decided Hillary was more likely to help them, so they wanted to help defeat Trump? There is certainly more evidence on that side than the other side. Some Democrats seem to think there's no way Hillary would have lost without interference from some hostile outside power. Has the pathetic story about hacking finally bitten the dust? Hillary was supposed to use the password 1234567, but she kept forgetting. It's hard to believe that the main point about this story is that it makes Trump look bad.
Russia/Poot and Trump ruined it for poor hillary. NPR is now implying that vote totals were changed. Hillary really won!
That is where this needs to go - so the media will take it there.
The left want you to think that Hillary's Private Server for Personal Enrichment was fake
news.
But how can we get by with an incapacitated President?
Better than with any other kind of President.
Darrell said...
George Soros is a Russian citizen (Ukranian).
Soros is an American citizen with dual nationality in Hungary, not the Ukraine.
Brookzene at 7:42 AM
Yes, I saw Kaine use the treason word
You seem to sneer at Dave from Minnesota after he commented that someone on CNN used the word, when you wrote:
Yes I'm sure they said "At the very least this is treason." You righties and your media fantasies. You gotta work a little harder to beat Althouse's imaginings however.
Do you think Dave from Minnesota was lying when he wrote his comment?
As soon as all records of the Obama White house's surveillance of Trump, and Hillary's scrubbed emails are turned over we can talk about Donny Jr meeting with a random Russian woman.
R/V: Read that Politico link where the Ukrainian government openly admits interfering in our elections on Hillary's behalf, and their panic when they realize how badly they screwed the pooch once Trump won. They openly admit forging documents to take out Paul Manafort, which they succeeded in doing in connection with Hillary's campaign.
This is specific detailed evidence of foreign governmental meddling in the US election, with names and dates and specific descriptions of exactly what was done: forging ledgers of payments to Paul Manafort that never happened.
Yet the Hillary campaign and the media (is there a difference) eagerly used these documents provided by the Ukrainian government to attack the Trump camp and they succeeded in getting Managort, Trump's campaign manager, to resign. It backfired because Kelly Conway came on board.
But you guys are hyperventilating over "Russia! Trump!" and yet here we have specifics--names, dates, and acts-- of the Ukrainian government openly interfering to help Hillary.
Crickets is the response. Right? No big deal, as long as it's to help Hillary.
--Vance
Well, at least we aren't pretending that the WaPo is in any way an objective reporting entity and is, in fact, the ideological enemy of 40% or more of the nation.
This is interesting, lots of links trying to explain who Natalia Veselnitskaya is:
"...Not to put too fine a point on it, but both Hillary Clinton and Trump’s Republican opponents hired an investigative firm to talk to Russians (both here in the United States and in the motherland) in an effort to find dirt on him. That’s how the now infamous Steele Dossier was produced. If all Donald Trump Jr. did was take a meeting with some Russian lawyer, that would only be newsworthy because the Trump campaign has been denying that any meetings with Russians took place.
"These headlines are missing the actual scandal here. Natalia Veselnitskaya is a lot more than a “Russian lawyer.” To fully explain who she is would require me to write a novel length post, so I’m going to ask you to do a little of the work here by following some of the links. You can start by skimming through the complaint that then-U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Preet Bharara filed against Denis Katsyv and his corporations. What you’ll find is a painfully detailed description of the biggest tax heist in modern Russian history and the astonishing amount of work that went into laundering the proceeds from the robbery. You’ll discover that the conspiracy was hatched and carried out by members of the Klyuev Group. Members of the Klyuev Group are described as Russian mobsters linked to the Russian government. In this case they’re linked to the Russian government through connections in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Tax Ministry, and the courts. Without these connections, the tax heist would not have been possible..."
washington monthly
I would like to know how Don Jr. came to know who a Rob Goldstone was and believe him to be trustworthy. The only reason I can think of for Paul Manafort to have gone along to this meeting without questioning it, is that Don Jr. must have vouched for Goldstone.
So, how did that happen?
Yes, Sunsong: this "Russian Lawyer" was fully supported by the Obama administration. She sat at the table with Obama administration officials while testifying to Congress.
Why is it impeachable and Treason for Trump Jr. to meet with a "Russian Lawyer" that is fully supported and part of the Obama administration? Why aren't the Obama administration officials who clearly are her pals and spent tons of time with her not in jail?
--Vance
"When you see those Project Veritas videos, do you dismiss them as nothing because one side is fake?"
Interesting that Prof Althouse brought that up because the same firm that was likely behind this "sting" of Trump Jr was hired by Planned Parenthood to go on offense against the Center for Medical Progress people, with success including criminal prosecution of the two for being "fake".
Just one more example of the double standard (I'm not directing that at Prof Althouse, but at the powers that be who get to decide in one instance that people creating a sting are in the wrong while in another instance, the victim of the setup is at fault.)
I love the moving goalposts. Ex President Clinton having a blatantly illegal meeting with the AG is a nothingburger to the Left. This is a BLATANTLY ILLEGAL action and should have lead to sanctions an resignations.
Some lady OFFERING information to Trump's son which is not in fact automatically illegal and it's 'treason'.
Be careful Lefties. If talking to furriners is suddenly illegal, we got TONS of video of your side getting nice and cozy with even worse people.
Granted, if your side worried about precedents, you wouldn't have done the Reid Option or Obamacare. So clearly you are not far sighted visionaries.
What does an incapacitated president use? pen and phone.
Nothing burger.
I wonder what scheming is going on behind the scenes at The Washington Post
The Post has gone from bad to worse under Bezos. It is now thoroughly a narrative/agenda rag. It does not report news, it presents a pre-determined narrative to promote an agenda.
What is going on there is the same that is going on right here by You Know Who in his commenting. Every story is an attack piece against Trump. Every event, no matter how innocuous, is used as an opportunity to attack Trump.
As someone who looks at their front page several times per day, I can attest that it will routinely have six or seven anti-Trump hit pieces. It is all Trump hate all the time.
any findings of collusion with the Trump campaign, if they exist beyond the questionable acts of Flynn and Manafort is secondary.
"Flynn and Manafort" is Obama/Clinton disinformation.
The Don Jr meeting disclosure is dangerous because it goes very close to Hillary's connections with Azerbaijan.
That's probably why it was not used in the campaign and it still might bite her hard now.
"They might try, Cookie, but it wouldn't be prosecuted, and would incur a false imprisonment suit. If I'd have replied "Yes I'll buy some!" and then shown up they might have a better shot, but saying 'I love it!' wouldn't hold water."
I think you are not up to date on the state of our, ahem, "republic" (sic).
I can't say I know they would arrest and prosecute you, but I think it is highly likely they would do so. After, they would have your email replying with "I love it!" to a written invitation to a meeting regarding drugs, and they would then have your arrival to and presence at the meeting. They need even less than this much to confiscate all your cash and property in an asset forfeiture case.
Why is it impeachable and Treason for Trump Jr. to meet with a "Russian Lawyer" that is fully supported and part of the Obama administration? Why aren't the Obama administration officials who clearly are her pals and spent tons of time with her not in jail?
I'm not sure I'd go so far as characterizing Veselnitskaya as a pal of the Obama administration* but another interesting tidbit I learned is that the interpreter who likely sat in on the meeting was...wait for it...a State Department employee.
* it's possible though because the Obama administration was quietly lobbying against the Magnitsky Act and there could have been a clandestine arrangement for her to do publicly what they wanted to do but had to keep some distance from for political reasons.
Why is it impeachable and Treason for Trump Jr. to meet with a "Russian Lawyer"
I haven't called it treason or called for impeachment. But I believe that the stench from this administration is fouling the air. The lying, the deceit, the bullying are not ok. Tjr lied. That's the problem, imo, the near constant dishonesty, including Kushner. That is NOT an American value. We teach our children to be honest and to treat others how we want to be treated.
Follow up on just who Natalia Veselnitskaya is
"Manafort should have known better, so I wonder how come he did not smell a rat."
-- I think they did, which is why the meeting was cut short and Kushner left early and Manafort is described as not particularly engaged in the discussion. It was one of those "It is probably fake, but it would be stupid to not at least show up" cases.
The Dems know they can beat Pence in 2020. That's why they want to run against him.
Trey Gowdy: "This email, we should have known about it before yesterday! "
But I believe that the stench from this administration is fouling the air. The lying, the deceit, the bullying are not ok.
Where the fuck were you between 2008 and 2016?
I can attest that it will routinely have six or seven anti-Trump hit pieces. It is all Trump hate all the time.
It's the house organ for the DC Deep State. Of course they hate Trump.
Rice bowls are smashing all over DC.
Do you remember a book called "The Wise Men?" It was about the old generation Democrat ruling class.
The present Democrat ruling class is outraged that they are not being consulted. Somebody asked if we had read David Brooks' column yesterday.
He does get one thing. The present ruling class is incompetent.
These rules have a devastating effect on economic growth nationwide. Research by economists Chang-Tai Hsieh and Enrico Moretti suggests that zoning restrictions in the nation’s 220 top metro areas lowered aggregate U.S. growth by more than 50 percent from 1964 to 2009. The restrictions also have a crucial role in widening inequality. An analysis by Jonathan Rothwell finds that if the most restrictive cities became like the least restrictive, the inequality between different neighborhoods would be cut in half.
The older ruling cl;ass won the cold war, with a lot of help from Reagan and his voters.
The new ruling class is destroying the economy. They have no idea what they are doing, aside from getting their kids into Yale where they learn to be snowflakes.
Maybe I'm just not as cynical as you are, Cookie -- not there's anything wrong with that! :-)
@Vance thanks got the article. I'm halfway through it.l
"Follow up on just who Natalia Veselnitskaya is"
Yes, like why she is sitting with Obama's ambassador a few days after the Trump meeting.
As someone who looks at their front page several times per day, I can attest that it will routinely have six or seven anti-Trump hit pieces. It is all Trump hate all the time.
That is all of Big Media. About....say early April....I went to the La Crosse Tribune's web site. Their format is to have 8-9 feature stories at the top of their home page. That day...it was either 6 of 8, or 7 of 9 of their featured stories were anti-Trump hit pieces.
And now there are stories coming out of the Edina Minnesota public schools. The harassment and belittlement conservatives students are receiving from the teachers. This is a city that is roughly equally split between Republican/Democrat.
And now there are stories coming out of the Edina Minnesota public schools. The harassment and belittlement conservatives students are receiving from the teachers.
The DFL is the political arm of the teachers union.
Where the fuck were you between 2008 and 2016?
I complained right here on this blog about Obama's lies.
Trumps lies and his families lies and his associates lies are harming us now. And that stench just keeps getting worse. What someone else did is NOT an excuse. That's so childish...
"Where the fuck were you between 2008 and 2016?"
Or between 2001 and 2009?
The Democrat National Committee has crafted this whole meeting scenerio, Hired the lawyer, used the Brit as a rube, using his email address to send the emails, all to crush Trump after the election, when he was supposed to loose. The DNC (Clinton's wife) set all this in motion to symbolically put President Trumps head on a pike, as a warning to any other outsider from attempting to curtail the deep state.
The only collusion that has happened during the 2016 elections was perpatrated By Clinton's wife and the DNC, with the direction of the true bosses, the establishment media.
Some good background information here
The Dems know they can beat Pence in 2020. That's why they want to run against him.
I like Pence. He'd probably be a much better President than Trump. But he'll get walked all over in a debate. He's too low key and nice. It will be just like, Dole, McCann, Romney.
The Dems know they can beat Pence in 2020. That's why they want to run against him.
The Dems knew they could beat Trump in 2016. That's why they wanted to run against him.
tcrosse,
I was trying to find MSM news on this. Came across several articles not on teachers going after conservative students, but instead teachers proudly talking about how they need to use their positions to oppose Trump. They were goofy paranoid conspiracy theory stories.
Blogger Matthew Sablan said...
"Manafort should have known better, so I wonder how come he did not smell a rat."
According to President Trumps personal lawyer, interviewed on the TODAY show this morning, Manafort was participating through a telephone connection, not there in person. I only point this out to illustrate how inherently incorrect media reports are, on almost all published stories.
Brookie ran out of promise as a troll when he abandoned actual examination of the issues and went into his talking point shell out of fear he might come to the obvious, but politically incorrect conclusion. Since then, he's been thumbsucking.
Also good information here, and generally a lot of good work being done by Sen Grassley.
It was from this report that I learned the name Anatoli Samochornov, the interpreter who works with Veselnitskaya and who also works for the State Department. I haven't seen any reporting about this but at least one account of Thebes's meeting mentioned an interpreter present so I'm betting it was him. Seems like something that should be investigated further.
Sunsong: You do indeed ask a great question though: who is this "Russian Lawyer?" It's rapidly becoming clear that the Obama administration set this whole mess up for the explicit purpose of wiretapping Trump and the Trump campaign.
So there is indeed an awful ton of illegal stuff here: all of it from the Left and from Hillary and Obama. Hillary and the DNC actively and extensively worked with Ukraine to get dirt on Trump's team. Obama set up this little sting operation and used it to justify wiretapping the entire Trump campaign.
This is all sordid, dirty, wicked stuff from the left.
--Vance
@Ann Great question for the WaPo: "What do we want?" What they really want is a do over from last year's election. They are not mature enough to realize that isn't going to happen. Do they really want Pence in the WH? He is a much more doctrinaire conservative than Trump. I suspect there would be little change in policy or practice if Pence took over. The major difference would be that they would have a much more difficult time attacking Pence - and that's all they are capable of. The WaPo's reaction to Trump's election has been irrational from the beginning. Fortunately for the rest of us their circulation is only about 475,000, so they have little or no impact outside the company town. The WSJ which has moved to supporting Trump's program, if not Trump personally, has over 900,000 digital subscribers alone. (Once again, Ann, I urge you to subscribe to the WSJ. The WaPO and NYT definitely slant your presentations. Someone here will be able to tell non-subscribers how to beat the paywall.)
Vance@9:22 -- What you describe is where this is all headed. The left forgets that nobody does revenge like Trump. He won't hike his skirt up and run like the a average GOPe sissy.
One might think the Dems would be a bit concerned about having a new Director of the FBI - process starts today. They have been very fortunate to have Comey running interference for them.
Can we imagine treason in the White House?
Sure! Imagine if a U.S. president sent 150 billion U.S. dollars to the sworn enemy of the United States, and that recipient country just happens to think the United States is a Great Satan.
See? Everybody here can imagine that.
Blogger CStanley said...
Some good background information here
There is another side to this story and I don't have the time or interest to unravel it.
I can't even recall where I saw it but it revolves around Browder and his troubles.
@CStanley Thanks for the link. Grassley seems to be one of few who is not entranced with Comey and who has some idea of what actually conspired re: Russia.
I like Pence. He'd probably be a much better President than Trump. But he'll get walked all over in a debate. He's too low key and nice.
I dunno. Pence is a product of Indiana politics, where candy-asses do not thrive.
Propaganda on top of propaganda, manipulation on top of manipulation. This is the deep state at work, as it usually does its business. The whole thing is amazingly short-sighted though, fixated on the current administration, or Trump himself, and not on the underlying hostility against the ruling class.
They are not going to soothe the savage beast like this. Should they ever achieve their goal of removing Trump through some concocted scandal they will just create an explosive extremity of hatred. This whole business is extremely unwise.
This is why I have taken steps to hedge against US financial and real estate assets - if that is even possible, given the essential global role of the US economy, but regardless, out of prudence one must try. US risk premiums (in internal enterprise ROI calculations) must be much higher than they should be because of this situation, and, globally speaking, at the moment US political turmoil is a much greater global risk than any potential trouble with Russia, China, or North Korea.
The WaPo's reaction to Trump's election has been irrational from the beginning. Fortunately for the rest of us their circulation is only about 475,000, so they have little or no impact outside the company town.
Unfortunately with no national newsrooms anymore, the Wash Post, NYT, etc is the source for national and international news items for almost every newspaper in the country.
I like to play a game with my morning paper. Cover up the byline and read the article, then try to guess the source. You can always tell a NYT or Wash Post story. AP vs other sources is a little harder to peg.
"What if the "Russian woman lawyer" was working with some Project Veritas-type group, giving a totally phony story just to get in there and get secret video of Don Jr. saying damaging things? When you see those Project Veritas videos, do you dismiss them as nothing because one side is fake? The side you care about is tricked, and what that person says counts, because it reveals how they think. "
-- This is true, which is why it is important, if you want to defend Trump Jr., to point out that, what he was doing was, perhaps in bad taste, but not illegal. Receiving information from someone, even a shady someone, is perfectly legal, given what we know. That may change, but right now -- he's a bit eager to find dirt on Clinton, but there's nothing illegal in that desire.
I might be somewhat concerned if I had any respect left for the Washington Post. Alas, I have gone from "I know you guys are among the best journalists available but you need to check your biases" to "it's an obviously biased newspaper but it still deserves respect" to "I do not trust your newspaper at all." Let the do whatever they want. I don't care. They think they are still one of the leading voices of journalism when in reality they are roughly on the same level as a conspiracy newsletter printed out of the author's parents' basement. What a waste.
"It's not a completely over-the-top get-Trump effort." What would count as "completely" over the the top? Every single article promoting the anti-Trump witch hunt?
Anyway, the name of the game is to incapacitate Trump--see also Dem obstruction in the Senate. A much milder form of which by the GOP was the ultimate political sin not long ago.
Dave is correct.
The WaPo and NYT direct paper and online circulation is a small fraction of their messaging influence. Broadcast media and much online media greatly amplify their output.
The WSJ editorial page has always been far less influential, and arguably has lost influence over the last couple of decades. They were essential reading in the paper era of limited outlets, and the WSJ had the circulation to compete, if the contest was simply paper vs paper, but the internet and broadcast news amplification never worked for them. Because of course they were never plugged into the broadcast news media machine.
Don't be so hard on the guy, Birkel -- it's not like he swapped a deserter for five terrorists during the war.
"That's where we are now in this country: we are an overt police state."
I'm starting to agree with Cookie here. We're operating on some lo-fi tyranny. Cops can shoot your dogs in your fenced yard because. Cops can shoot a man with a concealed carry permit in his car because. The IRS can auction off all of your assets at pennies on the dollar because. Authorities can take money from you if they don't like the way you structure your deposits because.
The Deep State has a face, and it looks just like a guy who looks just like John McCain.
"Fortunately for the rest of us their circulation is only about 475,000, so they have little or no impact outside the company town."
My paper and your paper and Althouse's paper and my parents' paper all pick up WaPo stories and run them on their front pages. Same with the NYT, and the AP.
There's a proliferation of their work across the entire country.
It's so odd that there's no equivalent to the standard "Republicans pounce" or "Some Fear Republicans Overreach" stories that run right after any objectively bad news for Dems.
That would almost suggest a Media that's biased and partisan...but I've been assured by the smart people, including interested parties like LifeLongRepublicans, that there is no such thing as "the Media" and while individual outlets might be a teensy bit biased one way or the other that the Media as a whole shoots straight.
Just an observation.
For complete info: WaPOS has 300,000 digital subscribers vs the Journal's 900,000. For the math challenged (like me) the Journal's digital circulation is 200% greater than the WaPOS (!).
Brookzene said...Yes, I saw Kaine use the treason word. It was ill-advised imo. On the other hand a little further down the road and he may look prescient.
Say all the irresponsible, unsupported things you want about people--you never know what might turn out to be true.
I heard Hillary had Vince Foster killed; it's ill-advised to claim that now, of course, but I'm sure Trump's DOJ'll get a real investigation going soon and people who make that claim may one day look prescient.
Reasonable.
@known Unknown. Yes, that is a problem.
"This is why I have taken steps to hedge against US financial and real estate assets "
Buwaya - I am curious what steps? In general, not seeking specific investments.
Maybe someone can explain how "getting Trump impeached" will somehow lead to HRC's coronation.
As far as my civics understand goes, the process would be:
1) House impeaches;
2) Senate convicts;
3) Pence becomes Prez;
4) Pence names a VP -- let's say it's Paul Ryan.
So now what? Will the Left drum up RussiaGate charges on Pence next? Okay, let's say that they find something they can drill Pence with. Then the sequence goes:
5) House impeaches Pence;
6) Senate convicts Pence;
7) Ryan becomes Prez;
8) Ryan names a VP -- let's say it's Carly Fiorina.
And now what? Are we going to do this cycle again? Impeach Ryan?
Will the cycle go on indefinitely until there are no Republicans left?
I just don't get it -- there's no provision in the Constitution for a "do-over election". What's the point of going through all this conspiracy nonsense? Is it *just* to get rid of Trump?
"If someone sent me an email and said they had some drugs for sale, let's have a meeting, and I say "I love it!" If I show up at that meeting, have I committed a crime?"
-- You have potentially, because that meeting is an agreement to buy something illegal. In this case, there is nothing illegal in listening to negative information about someone. Gossip is not inherently illegal.
From the "could be in legal jeopardy" article:
"In the mid-1990s, the Justice Department launched an investigation into possible improper campaign contributions that originated from China flowing into President Bill Clinton’s reelection campaign. The case resulted in guilty pleas among those involved in some illegal contributions, but it never produced charges against any officials at the White House, the Democratic National Committee or the Bill Clinton campaign."
It's undeniable that Republicans and Democrats are held to different standards, but there is a perfectly good reason for that. Republicans are generally bad people who should be held to account for even small violations of propriety; Democrats are generally good people who should not be held accountable, even for fairly egregious sins.
"Yellow journalism, or the yellow press, is a type of journalism that presents little or no legitimate well-researched news and instead uses eye-catching headlines to sell more newspapers.[1] Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering or sensationalism. By extension, the term yellow journalism is used today as a pejorative to decry any journalism that treats news in an unprofessional or unethical fashion.[2]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism
Sad to say, but the now scandal-mongering "Grey Lady" (NYT) and the Washington Post have become paid-up members of the yellow press, joining such luminaries as the National Enquirer.
Of course, the NYT and Wapo rap sheets reflect prior unethical scandle mongering against Republican office holders:
On February 21, 2008, in the midst of [Senator] John McCain's campaign in the 2008 Republican presidential primaries, both The New York Times and the Washington Post published articles detailing rumors of an improper relationship between John McCain and lobbyist Vicki Iseman.[1][2]
According to the New York Times story, McCain, who was a member of the Senate Commerce Committee during the period when Iseman was lobbying the committee, developed a close personal relationship with Iseman.[1] The New York Times came under intense criticism for the article because of its use of anonymous sources and its timing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain_lobbyist_controversy
Robert Cook said...
"If someone sent me an email and said they had some drugs for sale, let's have a meeting, and I say 'I love it!' If I show up at that meeting, have I committed a crime? No fucking way."
You'd be surprised what the drug cops and prosecutors might say about that. You can bet they would arrest you and try to prosecute you for "conspiracy to...blah, blah, somethingorother...."
Sadly true, but it's a bad analogy for this situation.
This one would be more like if someone sent you an email and said "I have some information about someone else's drug deal and thought you might want that info since you're in a competition against that other person." I think you could say "neat, I'll meet you somewhere to talk" to that without being in violation of a law at that point.
The WashPo and Left generally is begging a few questions in their framing of this--namely that all parties understood that something was being sold/offered for trade (as opposed to given), that all parties understood that the thing being sold was illegal or illegally obtained, etc. Everyone knows drugs are illegal and meeting to buy drugs (or even to talk about buying drugs) is therefore understood to be an illegal act (part of a conspiracy, etc). It's simply not true that everyone knows that any person presenting themselves as a source for unspecified information is offering illegal goods, nor is receipt of information (even illegally-obtained information) automatically illegal itself. If it is then we're going to have to start locking up "journalists."
Hmmm...would I trade the Trump presidency for the ability to criminally prosecute members of the Media for "just doing their jobs?" Seems like it'd be one of those thorny 1st Amendment problems, but let the WashPo keep pushing that standard...they can be awfully persuasive and I just might come around.
Molly said...
From the "could be in legal jeopardy" article:
"In the mid-1990s, the Justice Department launched an investigation into possible improper campaign contributions that originated from China flowing into President Bill Clinton’s reelection campaign. The case resulted in guilty pleas among those involved in some illegal contributions, but it never produced charges against any officials at the White House, the Democratic National Committee or the Bill Clinton campaign."
I'm sorry, Molly, you just don't get it: sure people in the Clinton campaign & admin clearly violated rules & laws, but since there was "no controlling legal authority" those violations couldn't be prosecuted nor punished. The smart people tried to explain it to you, but apparently you weren't listening. They understand it, though, and that's all that matters. You run along now.
Tim Gilliland said...
Memo to the media: The election is over. Trump won, and now what is important is how the country is governed. Why are you so afraid to discuss important issues that you waste all this column space on specious nonsense?
7/12/17, 7:48 AM
Short answer is I don't think they are "afraid". I think they are out of practice after spending 8 years kissing the ass of the king and expected to do the same for another 8. They forgot how to do their jobs. Now instead of actually "reporting" (which let us be honest was a skill they lost long before that) all they have left are breathless announcements and breathless leaking of "secrets". I don't think any of the MSM actually knows or remembers how to evaluate a story, investigate it, write it up in a coherent fashion, and get it published. They are all "teen beat" now.
". I only point this out to illustrate how inherently incorrect media reports are, on almost all published stories."
-- To be fair, they were reporting what the Russian Lawyer Lady told them. If Manafort wasn't there and she lied, she burned the reporters.
Tuffnell,
Look at what the Chinese do. They have been buying up US/Canadian real estate, but have been diversifying to wherever the laws let them buy, Australia, Europe, several countries in SE Asia.
This sort of thing is a long term investment, and may be, ultimately, a loser in any case, but it is a hedge against a total loss if your home situation turns entirely wrong. Think like a potential refugee, and prepare a fallback position.
I suggest you have a look into foreign real estate, preferably with a rental income, in emerging markets where you are permitted to own property.
" Think like a potential refugee, and prepare a fallback position."
The Hong Kong Chinese that I knew were preparing for the 1997 consequences and had first class airplane tickets that they kept current by renewing them. They also sent their kids to Canada and later many went there themselves.
More recently, they have been moving to California and the east side of Los Angeles is mostly Chinese now.
A friend of mine who is Eurasian and has American-Chinese wife who went inot real estate years ago, has done very well out of this.
He is an orthopedic surgeon but has rheumatoid arthritis and I suspect she has made more money selling real estate than he ever did from his practice.
I see Chinese and Korean kids joining the US Army to get citizenship.
I think the Chinese society is far more fragile than is usually understood and they know it.
Brookzene said...
Ugh, President Pence. Given the shameless sycophancy he shows towards Trump he is likely to be a terrible president. Still it would take the office out of someone who I think is patently unfit. No good endgames here, unless Trump suddenly became someone he is not.
7/12/17, 8:31 AM
I just LOVE how some people suddenly care whether someone is actually, like you know, "fit" to be President! This is comic GOLD here! Obama was just GRAND despite being a community organizer and absolutely disgraceful as a constitutional law professor. Hillary was an abject failure at EVERYTHING she touched with the one exception of being able to sell her government access to the highest bidders oh and having a vay jay.
But NOPE, it is Trump that is a step down. LOL!
I suggest you have a look into foreign real estate, preferably with a rental income, in emerging markets where you are permitted to own property.
That last phrase is the stickler. I looked into buying property in Australia years ago. It is just too far,
New Zealand not as far but still far.
Outside the Anglosphere, I'm not sure there is security in terms of law.
Many years ago, my wife and I talked about retiring to the south of France. If we were younger, I would think hard about it. Not Paris or Marseilles which are full of you know whats.
Blogger traditionalguy said...
Bezos must be enjoying this. He prints his own personal MAD Magazine daily. And he loves the Spy on Spy section.
7/12/17, 7:34 AM
It's Spy vs Spy.
Delete your account.
I just LOVE how some people suddenly care whether someone is actually, like you know, "fit" to be President!
Todd, I think we are getting a glimpse of the underbelly of the beast some of us call "The Deep State."
Again, if you have not read Codevilla's essay, you should. It was published seven years ago and nothing but Trump has changed.
"Follow up on just who Natalia Veselnitskaya is..."
They don't care who she is. They don't care if Trump and company colluded with Russia. If it was going to get him elected they would've colluded with the devil himself. That is what happens when you've lost your center of balance. They sink to the level of the lowest common denominator and wallow there with him.
sunsong said...
But I believe that the stench from this administration is fouling the air. The lying, the deceit, the bullying are not ok.
7/12/17, 9:05 AM
That is another side splitter! How can anyone even SMELL Trump after 8 years of Obama and Hillary? LOL!
Where were all of "you" when Obama's IRS went after non-profits? Where were you when Obama's admin ran guns to Mexican cartels and got border guards killed? Where were you when Obama and Hillary did nothing while our embassy got attached and Americans killed and THEN blamed it on a old video? Where were you when Obama and the Democrats RAMMED OCARE through Congress? Where were you when Hillary was found out running a secret email server with secure information on it that she should not have had there and then did all she could to cover it up? I could go on but won't. How does anyone even have any sinuses left after 8 years of that? But sure, you are right, the Trump administration STINKS! LOL...
Hoodlum Doodlum at 10:16: Thanks for the clarification. But I thought no controlling legal authority had to do with soliciting contributions from the White House. Did it also apply to campaign contributions from non-US citizens.
Molly,
When there is controlling legal authority, no reasonable prosecutor would bring a case. If you are a Democrat. That covers 100% of the cases in which the Clintons are involved.
"ut how can we get by with an incapacitated President?"
We just did it for eight years.
Was anything of value exchanged?
Were any operational details revealed?
Were any names divulged, imperiling people?
Was as any classified information (before that information was known) transferred?
This seems to be a case of Freedom of Press vs Freedom of Speech. I hope the Press loses.
I still think the big story might be the FISA applications that have been claimed were first filed in June of 2016 (this comes from the "reputable" press by the way). If the e-mail chain were part of that application, it would be a bombshell since one should be able to figure how it ended up in the application- in other words, answering how the FBI obtained it would become important. It is definitely a curious coincidence in timing that someone with press resources should be investigating. Add to that some of the information about the Russian lawyer that is slowly coming to light- and the other connections to Azerbaijan, while needing more solid corroboration, and it does look increasingly likely that Trump Jr. was set up right from the start, and just to support such a FISA application.
One of two things has to be true here- either Clinton dirt was passed to Trump Jr., Kushner, and Manafort, or it wasn't. Right now, all the evidence suggests it wasn't. If it wasn't, you have to ask, "Why not?" There are two explanations for no dirt being passed at a meeting that was explicitly set up for doing so: (1) The lawyer and her employers simply lied and wanted a meeting to lobby for their bugaboo about the Magnitsky Act, or (2) it was a setup. As others have pointed out, the first explanation doesn't make a lot of sense since misrepresentation on this level kind of defeats the purpose of obtaining the meeting. The second makes more sense, in either a Veritas-like operation, or if the goal was simply to create a pretext for something else, like a FISA application. Someone with the authority could open up these applications, and should, whether or not my theory is correct.
It has long been curious to me that the story about the Summer 2016 FISA application has been floated so long with literally no detail about what was in it. I have long assumed the entire story was bullshit and there was no application, but that position becomes increasingly difficult to defend, even without leaked details about the content. What is striking to me about the current story is that it aligns on the calender with the FISA story, and also aligns with the reported claims about why it was filed for in the first place- i.e. evidence of connections between Trump associates and a foreign agent. I really think someone needs to leak this application in its entirety, and if it really does exist, I suspect someone in the press is sitting on it for some reason.
So the Washington Post, the Democratic Party and Russia have their interests aligned.
And the post-coup d'etat government in Kiev. Merkel, too.
"I can't even recall where I saw it but it revolves around Browder and his troubles."
Here are a couple of articles talking about that and other Russian stuff: Russian Lawyer Who Met Trump Jr. Saw a Clinton Scandal in Tax Inquiry and How Hermitage Capital, Ziff Brothers And The Clinton Global Initiative Prompted The Trump Jr. Meeting.
Around the time of last summer’s meeting with Trump Jr., Russian attorney Natalia Veselnitskaya was peddling a new political spin on a well-worn international scandal, according to one person familiar with her work. She was focusing on hedge fund manager William Browder, the subject of her scorn and of a film she was promoting, and on Ziff Brothers Investments LLC, which had invested with Browder, the person said.
Russian prosecutors said they were opening new lines of inquiry against these investors. What Veselnitskaya saw in these steps were alleged tax improprieties that would be a black mark on the Democratic Party, because Browder and at least one member of the wealthy Ziff family had contributed to the Clinton Global Initiative, the person said.
No charges have surfaced in Russia against the Ziffs. Browder called Russia’s investigation last year a politically motivated rehash of old allegations. The Ziff family, through a spokesman, declined to comment. Veselnitskaya didn’t respond to requests for comment.
Veselnitskaya was no stranger to U.S. officials at the time of the Trump Tower meeting in New York. She was a champion of an agenda dear to the Kremlin -- pressing to roll back the Magnitsky Act, a U.S. law that branded 18 Russians as human-rights abusers. It was named for Sergei Magnitsky, a lawyer who worked for Browder’s Hermitage Capital Management and died in a Moscow prison after uncovering what he said was a tax fraud that diverted $230 million from Russian taxpayers into the pockets of a handful of civil servants.The 2012 law angered the Kremlin, which then prohibited most adoptions from Russia to the U.S., chilling relations between Washington and Moscow.
Note - the Russians banned US adoptions in retaliation for the Magnitsky enactment by the US, and both Browder and his atty Magnitsky were convicted by the Russians for tax evasion - the latter after his death in a Russian prison. And, Veselnitskaya was very involved in trying to get the act repealed - and likely why adoption came up in the conversation.
Note, BTW, the Ziff CGI contribution was apparently far less ($10k or so) to that made by Jered Kushner's father (apparently between $250k and $500k). Which is to say that while some Clinton contributions were almost assuredly quid pro quo for past and future official acts by Crooked Hillary, many were not. The minor Ziff contribution may have helped the Russian atty get in the door to Trump, Jr (and Kushner the younger), it was likely just the hook so that she could talk about repealing the Magnitsky Act and, in trade, resuming adoption here of Russian children. And, I think that is why the Trump people there called it a nothingberger - she didn't really have any dirt on Crooked Hillary, and just used the possibility as a hook to get in the door. Something like that.
"Outside the Anglosphere, I'm not sure there is security in terms of law."
Within the Anglosphere there is very limited security in terms of law. The IRS for instance creates a huge lot of legal risk for US citizens and residents wrt foreign investments. This is, paranoid me, probably meant to restrict capital flight. This is not true of most advanced countries nor many developing ones. The US has built a sort of Berlin Wall, for money. Why, I wonder.
I would not be entirely secure owning US property, as a foreign investor. One way or another there is always a risk. The key is to hedge one risk against another.
But the US is such a huge matter in the world that its not clear what is a reasonable hedge, where, if worst comes to worst, is a safe spot. Who knows what events will result from what conditions that will result from what other events. Argentina can fail economically, Thailand can fall into civil war, and their influence is so limited that crossing a single border is sufficient safety, for people and money. But the US?
Its like the case of those German Jews in Manila in WWII. They got away from the Nazis, literally to the opposite side of the world, under US protection among a friendly people. But they still got massacred by the Japanese in 1945, a result of a chain of consequences started by their Nazi enemies. WWII was too big a phenomenon to entirely escape.
Personally, I'd prefer Pence in the driver's seat--better chance of getting results. But even if Trump was impeached--which he won't be, so it's just a hypothetical--would that benefit the Left? They'd be stuck with a harder target for 2020 and their own party is still divided. They might try and pin the "he's a religious right nutjob" thing on Pence, but that attack has grown old and has less potency than it once did (and would lose more potency if he's an incumbent, when people see we're not living in a Handmaids Tale yet).
So much like removing Bill Clinton would have hurt the GOP for 2000 (against an incumbent Prez Gore, rather than VP Gore) I don't see how removing Trump now would help the Dems for 2020.
Bruce,
The Bloomberg piece is very interesting. One of the curious things is that Veselnitskaya wasn't mentioned by name in the e-mail chain and Trump Jr. has indeed said he had no idea with whom they would meet until she showed up. It appears the only people who clearly knew who was meeting with Trump Jr. were the Agalarovs. The Bloomberg piece is also the first place I have seen where the Agalarovs claim Goldstone was the one misrepresenting the topic of the meeting.
So far, the only person one can identify as the origin of the meeting's purpose is Goldstone himself- we need to see the e-mails between Goldstone and the Agalarovs, don't we? If the lawyer for the Agalarovs is correct- that Goldstone is the one who misrepresented the meeting- then this could go a long way to explaining why Veselnitskaya has denied she ever had any dirt- she also didn't know why Trump Jr. agreed to meet her, and it also explains the "inananity" comment- the participants had completely different expectations about the purpose of the meeting.
For this particular story, it is very important to determine what communications Goldstone had with the Agalarovs- in particular, e-mails between those two parties. My suspicion is that Goldstone had an agenda that was his own. Someone really needs to interview this guy in detail, and get him to supply the missing evidence.
I still think the big story might be the FISA applications that have been claimed were first filed in June of 2016 (this comes from the "reputable" press by the way). If the e-mail chain were part of that application, it would be a bombshell since one should be able to figure how it ended up in the application
I do, too, although it will take an honest FBI to sort it out and I'm not sure we have one. FWIW my daughter was in charge of FISA applications for a while some years ago. She's a lawyer in addition to being an agent. Next time I see her, I;m going to ask her about it.
Within the Anglosphere there is very limited security in terms of law. The IRS for instance creates a huge lot of legal risk for US citizens and residents wrt foreign investments.
I agree here, too. I was thinking of Australia or New Zealand.
I would not be the sort of emigrant that the IRS would be interested in but I can see those people might prefer Singapore.
Twenty five years ago, I knew quite a few people who moved to Mexico but that was before the drug wars.
Some go to Costa Rica. Uruguay ?
The IRS pursuit of the emigrants was mostly an Obama initiative and may reverse if Trump survives the vendetta the Deep State is conducting.
I keep having the feeling that we still have not seen what is driving all this.
It does not feel like America.
If even Veselnitskaya didn't know what Trump Jr. expected the topic to be, it was probably comedy hour for 20 minutes. Several years ago, I and other members of my team were asked to attend a meeting with a different research team to discuss a particular subject that was important to my team- this meeting had been accidentally set up by a temporary office assistant that had totally mixed up two different assignments and topics for discussion. So my team shows up and we start our introductory presentation, and we go on for over 30 minutes before a member of the other team interrupts and asks us why we are presenting something completely unrelated to the purpose of the meeting. It was only then that we all realized we were meeting with the wrong team. I wonder if something similar happened in June 2016.
Dave from Minnesota at 7:38 AM
Kaine: Trump Jr. may have committed treason
It's disturbing to think that a person as obnoxious as Tim Kaine almost became the US Vice President.
"I keep having the feeling that we still have not seen what is driving all this.
It does not feel like America.'
True, I have the same feeling - rather, it is a conviction. There is an awful lot of effort being put into all this, for some purpose that matters a very great deal to someone. Its not "hysteria" or TDS, rather, the hysteria and TDS have been drummed up and are being maintained deliberately. Trump as a policymaker does not seem a great destroyer of economic interests, or not at least of economic interests large enough to merit such a reaction. But someone or someones, with plenty of money, are feeling a threat grave enough to justify this.
Australia has been getting plenty of interest from Chinese investors.
Australian provincial governments have actually taxed foreign property buyers to discourage them from the Australian market, as they were pricing out Australians. I think in Sydney the foreign buyer is charged a transaction tax of 13% of the purchase price.
There have been similar restrictions in Canada, Singapore, etc.
One reason I have NOT purchased anything in Australia, though I have lots of relatives there. Its also very expensive.
Not only is opposition research about Hillary illegal - this means Trump will be impeached and thrown in jail for treason.
Right, Stalinists?
“…At the moment, the only person who might be in some legal jeopardy as a result of the meeting is Kushner, who did not mention the meeting on the form he filled out to secure a security clearance (called an SF-86). The form specifically states that “knowingly falsifying or concealing a material fact is a felony which may result in fines and/or up to five (5) years imprisonment.”
“But enough about legal jeopardy. There is too much focus on the criminal aspect of this event, which might or might not be significant. There is not enough focus on the moral aspect of this event, which is far more significant.
“Donald Trump Jr.’s conduct defines the word “disgraceful.” He may not have colluded in the disruption of an American election, but the evidence of the emails he released himself indicates he was only too willing and eager to do so…
“…But we know Trump Sr. has knitted his children into every aspect of his professional life. In other words: The president whose daughter took his seat at the G20 conference and who wants his son-in-law to negotiate a Middle East peace is the same man whose son took a meeting with someone he had been led to believe was a Putin cut-out to procure information that would destroy Hillary Clinton.
“I’m sure there are people who will defend this, because there are people who will defend anything.”
John Podhoretz
Yancey Ward at 11:48 AM
What is striking to me about the current story is that it aligns on the calender with the FISA story, and also aligns with the reported claims about why it was filed for in the first place- i.e. evidence of connections between Trump associates and a foreign agent. I really think someone needs to leak this application in its entirety, and if it really does exist, I suspect someone in the press is sitting on it for some reason.
President Trump should declassify the FISA application of June 2016 and tweet it out the the World.
One reason I have NOT purchased anything in Australia, though I have lots of relatives there. Its also very expensive.
Sydney is outrageous. I spent a week with an Australian doctor who had moved to Little Rock Ark and loved it. He had a big home on the river and a nurse in his clinic at U of A lived nearby in another lnce home.
He told me, "In Sydney my home would cost $25 million."
The two areas I like are Perth and Toowoomba in Queensland.
Queensland is the most conservative state as NSW is the most leftist.
One of the friends I made there owned the former colonial governor's summer place. It was on the escarpment that is hundreds of feet high. From his yard, you can see Brisbane 100 miles away.
They invited me for kangaroo hunting in the outback but I never got back to go.
Perth is cheap, or was, but is really far away.
sunsong said...
He may not have colluded in the disruption of an American election, but the evidence of the emails he released himself indicates he was only too willing and eager to do so…
Sunsong- While I often disagree with you on policy, you generally come across as a decent person who wants to engage in honest discussion. With that in mine, could you please explain:
In what way is informing the American public about the criminal behavior of one of its presidential candidates disrupting the election?
When you look at what kind of information Trump Jr. though he was going to get, does this not show that he was only too willing and eager to engage in a public service?
The email thread from Don Jr. is indeed the most "colludy" looking thing that has been revealed to date. So why didn't the MSM lead with this from the beginning?*
I saw that some reporter has been sitting on this story for close to a year. Why did the media not leak this during the campaign? Is it because they know it's weak since there is no actual crime here? Possibly because they suspected that Trump could point to questionable foreign associations that Hillary and her team had and so it would backfire? It does make one wonder...
But it makes sense that they would decide to run with it now: Hillary lost so there is no risk to it backfiring and damaging her campaign, and more importantly, the Russia collusion story was dying and the media desperately need to keep it alive. It's red-meat for Trump haters. As the CNN producer said, it's all about the ratings.
*(Ok, I said I was going to ignore this story, and I am in the sense of not clicking on any MSM links-- I'm getting all my info from secondary sources, like Althouse.)
In what way is informing the American public about the criminal behavior of one of its presidential candidates disrupting the election?
Hillary Clinton could shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue and not lose any of her supporters.
@Ignorance is Bliss-
I know you directed that at sunsong but if I may....
The biggest problem is that one would not expect an agent of the Russian government to be handing out honest information.
I'm GOP, not a Trump supporter but not a never Trump type either, just calling things as I see them. I know some Trump supporters do not want to show weakness by admitting poor judgement or error. I also know that some would say, who cares if the information potentially gained is false, that's the way the other side plays so we should play by their rules. I get all of that, but the honest disagreement that I have with those who look at it that way is that I don't believe in stooping to the level of people who lack ethics. I think you can play hardball, and win, without becoming like those you detest.
And furthermore...not only would it be a dirty trick to use information from a Russian agent, it could also endanger American interests (perhaps in ways not initially obvious) because the Russian sponsors of that person would have no reason to give out the information unless it served their own purpose in some way.
Hi Ignorance is Bliss,
Megan McArdle says it better than I would...the ends don't justify the means:
“…The president's supporters have already retreated to what now looks to be their last rhetorical stand: to say that this isn't collusion, but just politics. They get creative and postulate that this isn't unlike what Clinton's campaign would have done.
“Here's the reality: Once you are given the details of a Russian attempt to change the outcome of an American election, there is only one patriotic thing you can do, and that is to get on the phone to the FBI and say, "I have some very disturbing news." End of story…
“…After months of suggesting that all the fears of Russian scheming to interfere in our elections were just so much hype and hysteria from a hopelessly biased media, the Trump family has now confirmed that they were not only aware of these efforts but were hoping to help. It seems wildly implausible that news of both the Russian efforts, and his own campaign's fellow-traveling, failed to reach Donald Trump Sr.
“Whether Russian efforts made a difference in the vote tally, they should certainly make a difference in America's view of its president.”
megan mcardle
”…It was Rex Tillerson, the current secretary of state, who, as chief executive officer at Exxon Mobil, enjoyed the highest level of access. Trump just wasn't important enough. It's entirely possible that a Kremlin effort to help Trump beat Hillary Clinton reached to lower levels because that's where it was easiest to establish contact with Trump's family. But it's more likely that Veselnitskaya, the tenacious and ambitious lawyer who could pull every string in the Moscow Region, did so to get her pet issue -- the repeal of the Magnitsky Act, which was getting her major client in trouble -- in front of some important Americans. That kind of effort would have been on the right level.
“Even if that meeting didn't help, Veselnitskaya has every reason to be happy Trump won. He fired U.S. Attorney Bharara in March, and in May, the case in which Denis Katsyv was involved ended in a surprise $6 million settlement, agreed by Bharara's successor Joon Kim. Katsyv escaped with just the payment, without admitting any guilt. No lawyer in Veselnitskaya's situation could have asked for more.”
Bloomberg
CStanley-
While there is certainly a danger of the information being false, you can only know that once you get the information. If you get the information, and release it without ascertaining its veracity, then you deserve all the criticism you get. ( See Trump Golden Showers dossier. )
And of course the Russians have their own interests. Every foreign government has preferences as to whom becomes president of the US. It would be absurd for someone working on a US presidential campaign to say Oh, wait. Foreign country X wants my candidate to win? Maybe I shouldn't campaign so hard.
And furthermore...not only would it be a dirty trick to use information from a Russian agent...
In what way would it be a dirty trick? Assuming that you verify the information is accurate?
Putting it another way:
Mueller is currently investigating if Trump colluded with Russia in various election related activities. Assume, for a moment, that he did, that he was directly involved in the hacking of the DNC and Clinton campaign servers. Russia goes to Mueller and offers iron-clad, independently verifiable proof of Trump's illegal activity.
Is Mueller expected to say No, thank you. It would be a dirty trick for me to collude with you in disrupting this investigation?
sunsong said...
Megan McArdle says it better than I would...the ends don't justify the means
I generally respect Megan McArdle. Megan McArdle is not responding to the question I asked you. Would you please?
Katsyv escaped with just the payment, without admitting any guilt. No lawyer in Veselnitskaya's situation could have asked for more.”
Bloomberg
I read the rest of his posts. Amazing that he is a Trump hater, isn't it ?
It's often interesting to see the sources you lefties use.
Thanks for the next one. Wash Monthly is a far left nutball site.
I used to read it when Kevin Drum was blogging there. After he left it got even crazier.
Ignorance is Bliss,
McArdle does answer the question, imo. Did you read the entire article?
sunsong, quoting Megan McArdle said...
…After months of suggesting that all the fears of Russian scheming to interfere in our elections were just so much hype and hysteria from a hopelessly biased media, the Trump family has now confirmed that they were not only aware of these efforts but were hoping to help.
But this is completely unsubstantiated. Based on this meeting, the Trump family most emphatically did not know that the Russians were scheming to interfere in our elections. Because, at the meeting, the Russians did not interfere with the election. They made no attempt to interfere with the election. And furthermore, after the meeting, the Trumps probably had no reason to believe that the person that they were meeting with was acting on behalf of the Russian government.
And furthermore, even if the Russians had passed on compromising information about Clinton, in what way would that have interfered with the election? The election still would have taken place, on the same day, in the same manner.
Seriously. Words have meanings.
"We teach our children to be honest and to treat others how we want to be treated."
That ended under Slick Willie. It ended when lying under oath was much ado about nothing because it was "just about sex".
sunsong said...
McArdle does answer the question, imo. Did you read the entire article?
I just did. No, she doesn't. Why don't you give it a try. Here it is again, for good measure:
In what way is informing the American public about the criminal behavior of one of its presidential candidates disrupting the election?
Ignorance is Bliss,
Junior's meeting (with Kushner) IS substantiation! He went to the meeting in order to get info from an adversarial foreign nation in order to effect (interfere with)
our election. What about that are you not getting? He was trying to, with the help of another country advantage himself in an election. McArdle explains why she believes that (as do I and millions of others) is simply NOT ok. It is collusion. Do you understand?
It's seems like you're asking, as long you are benefiting from an action, there can be nothing wrong with it Is that what you believe?
Also from McArdle:
Americans running for American office must pick sides: the will of American voters or the influence of a foreign power. (Hint: You choose your fellow Americans.)
This is just stupid. Trump Jr. was not going to cancel the election, or hack the voting machines, or anything like that. He was planning to rely on the will of the American voters. He just wanted those voters to be informed about relevant facts* regarding whom they were voting for.
*Of course, he was mostly interested in the relevant facts that make his candidate look good, or his opponent look bad. But that is just politics, and would be silly to hold that against the Trump campaign.
Saying that Trump Jr. meeting with this woman IS the Russians interfering with the election is just like (yes, exactly just like) saying Russians interfered with the elections because some firefighters were downtown on election day, putting out a fire and their trucks blocked some roads causing some voters to have to walk to their polling stations so some did not AND some of the firefighting equipment was made in Russia! There you go, Russian interference in the election!
Oh, and as a result, the firefighters are guilty of treason!
sunsong said...
Junior's meeting (with Kushner) IS substantiation!
Sorry if I was unclear. It is unsubstantiated that the Trump family was aware of Russians scheming to interfere with our elections.
Todd,
I'm not saying that Junior did collude. I am saying, as are so many others,...that he was ready and willing to...
And he lied about the meeting only coming clean when the NYT told they would release the emails they had. That's bothers millions of us as well...
sunsong said...
It's seems like you're asking, 'as long you are benefiting from an action, there can be nothing wrong with it' Is that what you believe?
That is neither what I'm asking, nor what I believe.
OK sunsong, one more time:
ALAN DERSHOWITZ: “Obviously if anyone conspired in advance with another to commit a crime – such as hacking the DNC – that would be criminal. But merely seeking to obtain the work product of a prior hack would be no more criminal than a newspaper publishing the work product of thefts such as the Pentagon Papers and the material stolen by Snowden and Manning.”
What was the crime he committed again?
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