Hamblin likes the idea of "redefining strength" by accepting, in the moment, that one has been "physically overpowered" and not getting caught up in "the idea of masculinity as an amalgam of dominance and violence." Instead, Jacobs, speaking "as if narrating for the audio recorder," said “You just body-slammed me and broke my glasses." He also "started asking for names of witnesses to the assault who will be assets to his case as it plays out in courts of law and public opinion," and reported the incident to the police.
Of course, Jacobs's choices were not merely a matter of overcoming physical impulses and meritoriously eschewing violence. I don't know how much of an impulse to retaliate on the spot he may have felt. I don't really know how violently he was hit. I don't even know if he did something first toward Gianforte and Gianforte was doing the old tit for tat retaliation. But narrating the audio, dropping it on line, going to the police, and taking names for litigation purposes is also a form of dominance. Some people would even call it violence. Why, here's an article in The Atlantic from just last June: "Enforcing the Law Is Inherently Violent/A Yale law professor suggests that oft-ignored truth should inform debates about what statutes and regulations to codify."
You know, if somehow I were given the choice between getting body slammed and getting charged with a crime and the question were How hard would the body slam need to be before you'd prefer to get charged with a crime?, I'd say pretty damned hard. And I'm just a little old lady. I'd rather be body-slammed than get sued in tort. If you body-slammed me, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't hit you back.* But I'll tell you one thing: If you sue me, I will defend to the hilt, and — where ethically appropriate — there will be counterclaims.
___________________
* And I have been body-slammed, at rock concerts, when I was trying to stand out of the range of a mosh pit and some young man came flying out obliviously. And sometimes it was intentional, an effort to provoke non-moshers to listen to the music the properly physical way. But I didn't call the cops or take names or file lawsuits.
IN THE COMMENTS: EDH says:
A "body-slam" is lifting someone completely of the ground and then driving their body to the ground.Wait. Let's get some shared understanding here. Does anybody think Jacobs intended to refer to the professional wrestling move? Here's a careful, precise demonstration of what that is:
It's not the same as "slam-dancing" on the periphery of a mosh pit, where one person slams his body into someone else's.
522 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 522 of 522Oh, I'm quite sure you can imagine just that, Birkel. Imagination, paranoia and conspiracy are the three things that you do even better than reality.
You are further impugning his parents, BTW. Calling them liars.
Show them the respect of taking them at their word.
Just because you and every Republican you know is a liar, doesn't mean that they are.
Birkel's been drinking.
Accusing others of what they fail at. Trump and Birkel both do this.
No fights at Buck's in Venice tonight but we left early. Check out country artist Aaron Copeland. Future star.100 Miles to Sunday.
TTR
I know Seth's dad. I believe him. But this whole thing has been completely mishandled. The FBI should have been involved on day one.
Seth Rich?
As long as we're off topic can I just say I hate the human verification system. Apparently I may be a robot.
Trump has made Ritmo boring. None may question the unerring wisdom of our liberal betters and we are all scum. We get what you are saying.
https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDummycrats/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf
Freedom is slavery.
"I hate the human verification system. Apparently I may be a robot."
If Althouse only allowed robots to comment here, the quality of the political threads would surely go up.
The parents of Seth rich do not get to chose the reality of who killed him and why.
Robert Cook said...
"We're not monkeys folks."
"Yes,we are."
Only if you can't get the banana out of the jar. If you can get the banana out of the jar and shove it in a congressmans face and force him off balance and then grab him causing you both to fall down then your not a monkey. Which isn't funny because monkeys are funny.
But this whole thing has been completely mishandled. The FBI should have been involved on day one.
This is one reason why so many doubt the story. Also, what about the surgery resident's story? Has anyone proven that is true or false ? I haven't seen it.
We are all just monkeys pushing pedals. It's true.
The parents of Seth rich do not get to chose the reality of who killed him and why.
They get to ask to stop being harassed by the indecent and idiotically nasty partisan-obsessive conspiracy mongerers upon whom you rely to shape any sense of meaning or understanding when it comes to the alternative reality version of politics that you embrace.
You're just basically indecent people. If a first-degree relative of yours died and partisan obsessives concocted some phony story about how it fit into a debunked narrative that supports their make-believe worldview, you'd be outraged too. These conservative harassers call them up over-and-over-and-over again. Yeah, let's turn your relatives' deaths into fodder for a market of political make-believe.
You have no respect for people. Real people get in the way of your political and ideological fantasies.
Trump has made Ritmo boring.
I don't have any obligation to entertain you, or any of your other fellow mental masturbators. Offer me payment first, crackhead. Do I ask you to entertain me? No, and you couldn't anyway. Google "conservative comedians" and prepare to be dumbstruck by the vast emptiness before you.
None may question the unerring wisdom of our liberal betters and we are all scum.
Well, most of you are indecent and you hate facts or the mere courtesy of doing your homework. So there's no basis for you to question what others actually put some human interest or curiosity into.
We get what you are saying.
Like usual, you don't get anything.
It really upsets me when somebody who wakes up every day anxious to spew hatred thinks ill of me.
Oh I spew plenty more than just that. It's just that all you deserve is the negativity and hatred part.
Why do you hate ordinary people so much? Why are you so addicted to a mindset that thinks nothing of screwing over anyone or thing that you haven't labeled "great?"
The fact that you're not upset by what you do is is what makes you contemptible. You celebrate your self-imposed ignorance of the harms you inflict on others.
"None may question the unerring wisdom of our liberal betters and we are all scum."
I've never thought of my fellow Americans or any human beings that way. But you gotta wonder wtf is wrong with people who are still uncritically cheerleading for Trump at this point.
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
"Oh I spew plenty more than just that. It's just that all you deserve is the negativity and hatred part.
Why do you hate ordinary people so much? Why are you so addicted to a mindset that thinks nothing of screwing over anyone or thing that you haven't labeled "great?"
The fact that you're not upset by what you do is is what makes you contemptible. You celebrate your self-imposed ignorance of the harms you inflict on others."
If it weren't for irony..............You aren't aware of this, but you are entertaining because you aren't aware.
have a great public sector employee weekend , Ritmo. You've earned it!
...a great public sector employee weekend...
Yet another class of people that you hate. Do they make you feel like less of a lower-middle class peon, or something?
I cannot speak for others but I do not hate public sector workers. I wish to free them from occupations that produce no value so they may participate in the competitive marketplace. Wouldn't it be nice if their productive capacity was freed to the benefit of us all?
I cannot speak for others but I do not hate public sector workers. I wish to free them from occupations that produce no value so they may participate in the competitive marketplace.
That's called anarchy. And it's not as if examples of it don't exist. If you'd like, you could lead your merry band of utopian government destroyers to this lovely little place called Somalia - where government is as light and fleet and sparse as the good tyrant over there needs it to be!
Instead of police, they have warlords. Very private sector-oriented. It's really someplace quite special.
Life for you awaits your imminent arrival there.
"I know. We're all just heartbroken."
The left keeps it up, and they are all going to be bone-broken.
That will be a good day.
Violent moron. You're perfect for alt+right.
Cowardice. No intellect. Just empty, futile talk.
Hiring a lawyer for a civil lawsuit or triggering a prosecution for a criminal case is, by its very nature a bit cowardly. It's depending on someone else to do the dirty work someone is unwilling to do.
You know what. Fuck Seth Rich's parents. If he was murdered because he was a DNC whistleblower then HE deserves justice. His parents feelings don't trump Justice.
The gap between how some of these tough-talking violence addicts conduct themselves on the internets and how they obviously are in real life is wide enough to drive a truck through. But it's always good to get a window into their psychotic fantasy life.
Another fantasist reveals that his concept of justice revolves more around his stupid bee-bee gun than anything having to do with evidence and due process.
Due process is mentioned in the Constitution and these morons don't even have a clue of what it is. Conservative retrogrades are the anti-constitutionalists of our day. They're also thoroughly crude and indecent losers. But that was already obvious.
Perhaps Mr. Gianforte's incident can give rise to the term "Jacksonian Republican". BTW, where are the photos of the wounded reporter's contusions, lacerations and abrasions? Or even of his fractured spectacles?
"The gap between how some of these tough-talking violence addicts conduct themselves on the internets and how they obviously are in real life is wide enough to drive a truck through."
Until one of these cowardly immoral monkeys stabs some decent human being(s) on a bus.
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
They get to ask to stop being harassed by the indecent and idiotically nasty partisan-obsessive conspiracy mongerers upon whom you rely to shape any sense of meaning or understanding when it comes to the alternative reality version of politics that you embrace.
Pathetic. You are dancing like a marionette. Why is a DNC political hack and crisis manager their "spokesman." I am more worried about the DNC killing them than anyone from the right.
You're just basically indecent people. If a first-degree relative of yours died and partisan obsessives concocted some phony story about how it fit into a debunked narrative that supports their make-believe worldview, you'd be outraged too. These conservative harassers call them up over-and-over-and-over again. Yeah, let's turn your relatives' deaths into fodder for a market of political make-believe.
Everyone knows Seth Rich leaked the DNC emails to wikileaks. Some of you wish to cling to the delusion that Russia somehow leaked the truth that the DNC screwed Bernie and not a Bernie supporter.
You have no respect for people. Real people get in the way of your political and ideological fantasies.
You aren't this stupid. Brookzene may be and Inga certainly is but not you. At some level you know the DNC is hopelessly corrupt and needs to be gutted and staffed by decent people or the party completely reformed.
You have no future as a political movement as long as you allow yourselves to be led along by obvious lies like the Russia/Trump collusion garbage. The DNC is your true enemy and you are letting them remain as they are. It is bad for all of us.
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
The gap between how some of these tough-talking violence addicts conduct themselves on the internets and how they obviously are in real life is wide enough to drive a truck through. But it's always good to get a window into their psychotic fantasy life.
Because the true heroes of the left have been walking the walk right? They have been out there kicking ass while we just talk. As stated before "Radical leftists punch people in the face. Moderate leftists want radical leftists to punch people in the face."
I don't understand why you keep pushing us. Why do you insist this ends in violence?
Brookzene said...
Until one of these cowardly immoral monkeys stabs some decent human being(s) on a bus.
That is an awkward way to describe an islamic terrorist.
Because the true heroes of the left have been walking the walk right?
We're talking about the people on the thread, in the comments section. Is it really that unclear to follow?
I don't understand why you keep pushing us. Why do you insist this ends in violence?
This is the way terrorists talk: "You make me angry/insult me, therefore I kill you. My dignity is paramount."
Pathetic. You are dancing like a marionette. Why is a DNC political hack and crisis manager their "spokesman." I am more worried about the DNC killing them than anyone from the right.
Then it sounds like you're the pathetic marionette. The DNC can't even win an election in which they outspend an offensive and ignorant asshole with basic competence and temperament issues. Just go ahead and keep making them out to be the next War of the Worlds galactic superpower now.
Everyone knows Seth Rich leaked the DNC emails to wikileaks.
I trust what his parents had to say about it over what you're saying.
Some of you wish to cling to the delusion that Russia somehow leaked the truth that the DNC screwed Bernie and not a Bernie supporter.
No idea what this is even supposed to mean.
"That is an awkward way to describe an islamic terrorist."
That's an awkward joke to make about an Army veteran who died heroically protecting a female Moslem from one of your alt+right friends on Memorial Day weekend. But depravity is just a place you're obviously comfortable with.
You aren't this stupid. Brookzene may be and Inga certainly is but not you. At some level you know the DNC is hopelessly corrupt and needs to be gutted and staffed by decent people or the party completely reformed.
What does the DNC's corruption have to do with the RNC's (and their lackeys) malevolence? Both are true. Both don't have to have anything to do with the other.
You want a better DNC? End gerrymandering and end the culture of graft that Trump has taken to new levels. They're just trying to compete with your own party's low bars.
You have no future as a political movement as long as you allow yourselves to be led along by obvious lies like the Russia/Trump collusion garbage.
Me? I'm not a member of the DNC. I bitch them out every time they call for funds. More than what your side's lackeys are doing about Trump. Trump is abominable. The DNC is feckless. I'm not in the business of trying to make one look worse/better because of the horrid qualities of the other. Feel free to whitewash one to project on the sins of the other. That's not my game.
The DNC is your true enemy and you are letting them remain as they are. It is bad for all of us.
"True" enemy? They're a disappointment and a disgrace, but I have more than one enemy. Trump is dismantling every institution of stability, quality and security that the U.S. public sector has and the results after eight years will be no better than after Bush's eight years of neglect. They'll be even worse - and probably even after four years of his incompetent management and destruction. He needs to go ASAP. You can hate the DNC all you want; that doesn't make Trump good for anything. He will ruin the country - mark my words and I will do everything in my legal power to usher in a President Pence before that happens. After that THEN you and I can talk/argue about priorities from there on out. Ending Trump's destruction of American norms, traditions and institutions is my more immediate priority, though - along with that of pretty much 60% of the country. Go talk to them about the DNC.
No Brookzene isn't me. But I'm very happy he's/ she's here.
Achilles lives in a fantasy land. He thinks Trump the Oligarch King and Trump's Oligarch Cabinet with save us from the Oligarchs. He doesn't even consider Trump's close ties to Russian Oligarchs. He clings to conspiracy theories about Seth Rich and who knows what else. He is the poster boy for Trumpism. Too deluded to even have an inkling that some things are JUST. NOT. REAL.
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
I trust what his parents had to say about it over what you're saying.
You are not that stupid. Go read a bit including the people who worked for wikileaks and helped transfer the emails.
"Some of you wish to cling to the delusion that Russia somehow leaked the truth that the DNC screwed Bernie and not a Bernie supporter."
No idea what this is even supposed to mean.
The DNC/Media made the Trump/Russia collusion story up out of whole cloth to hide the fact that a Bernie supporter was pissed at them for screwing Bernie and leaked their internal emails.
Notice that nobody is even denying the DNC screwed Bernie.
But the DNC needs the Bernie supporters even as they hate them and lie to them and ignore them. So they made up a story about Russia and Trump and you people are sucking it up like idiots.
The Bernie wing is not represented politically because they are letting themselves be led around and they are violent to boot. Apparently a Bernie/Jill supporter just went off and stabbed a bunch of people on a bus. It is bad for all of us.
@ TTR @ 12:14 PM
How did you get from freeing government workers from their oppressive work environments to anarchy? Do you believe there is a slippery slope when it comes to government workers? If we free one government worker suddenly there is no government whatsoever?
Think of all the creative capacity that could be unleashed by all those talented, trained and skillful federal workers were freed to compete in the private workforce!
Normally you don't day drink but tomorrow is a holiday, after all.
"wide enough to drive a truck through"
Fail again. I am a former US Marine, Infantry. 3rd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion. We were first into Somalia, we were the light tanks that raced up to Baghdad. The only people more bad ass than us are Force Recon and Navy Seals.
“To many observers on the left, the initial embrace of Seth Rich conspiracy theories by conservative media figures was merely a confirmation of the right’s deformed soul. But for those of us who remember that Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity were once relatively mainstream Reaganites, their extended vacation in the fever swamps is even more disturbing. If once you knew better, the indictment is deeper.
The cruel exploitation of the memory of Rich, a Democratic National Committee staffer who was shot dead last summer, was horrifying and clarifying. The Hannity right, without evidence, accused Rich rather than the Russians of leaking damaging DNC emails. In doing so, it has proved its willingness to credit anything — no matter how obviously deceptive or toxic — to defend President Trump and harm his opponents. Even if it means becoming a megaphone for Russian influence.
The basic, human questions are simple. How could conservative media figures not have felt — felt in their hearts and bones — the God-awful ickiness of it? How did the genes of generosity and simple humanity get turned off? Is this insensibility the risk of prolonged exposure to our radioactive political culture? If so, all of us should stand back a moment and tend to the health of our revulsion.”
Michael Gerson
You are not that stupid. Go read a bit including the people who worked for wikileaks and helped transfer the emails.
Nope. But apparently you are going to persist in being this indecent. How naive does one have to be to pretend that Wikileaks doesn't have an agenda? I understand that you think all 17 intelligence agencies are not to be trusted but that a foreign NGO is, but that's your choice. You're quicker to trust foreign agencies and institutions than American ones. As for his parents, feel free to keep grave dancing over their refusal to be pawns in your Breitbart/whatever publishing empire game. I'm not interested in the least in joining you in that indecency. This is like listening to Darth Vader telling Luke to join him in ruling the galaxy. Not interested. Sorry if my standards for how to treat other humans and which ones to trust are not as low as you'd like them to be.
Notice that nobody is even denying the DNC screwed Bernie.
So why are you bringing it up? What does it have to do with anything? Is it like the eternal golden braid that threads through every piece of political minutiae anyone wants to look at now? Geez. You know, there are more things going on in the country than the DNC and Bernie Sanders. Starting with the folks who are actually running the country, now. I realize you feel they should get a pass on everything but some of us are a little more forward thinking. I've never seen the winners of an election more focused on the past. Apparently the future Trump and his Trumpkins of yours are planning for us really is that bleak. Always looking backward, never forward.
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
What does the DNC's corruption have to do with the RNC's (and their lackeys) malevolence? Both are true. Both don't have to have anything to do with the other.
See we agree.
You want a better DNC? End gerrymandering and end the culture of graft that Trump has taken to new levels. They're just trying to compete with your own party's low bars.
Trump has taken to new levels?
Me? I'm not a member of the DNC. I bitch them out every time they call for funds. More than what your side's lackeys are doing about Trump. Trump is abominable. The DNC is feckless. I'm not in the business of trying to make one look worse/better because of the horrid qualities of the other. Feel free to whitewash one to project on the sins of the other. That's not my game.
You misunderstand the "sides." We put Trump in there to dismantle DC.
Trump is dismantling every institution of stability, quality and security that the U.S. public sector has and the results after eight years will be no better than after Bush's eight years of neglect. They'll be even worse - and probably even after four years of his incompetent management and destruction. He needs to go ASAP.
List these "institutions of stability" please. All I see coming from DC is a bunch of vote buying and cronyism. SS and Medicare are going to be bankrupt decades before I can use it but they find a way to give General Motors 45 billion dollars in tax write offs? This all needs to be dropped to the state level where we can see it.
He will ruin the country - mark my words and I will do everything in my legal power to usher in a President Pence before that happens.
I thought the same thing about Obama. Do we want to discuss the damage Obama did to our country?
After that THEN you and I can talk/argue about priorities from there on out. Ending Trump's destruction of American norms, traditions and institutions is my more immediate priority, though - along with that of pretty much 60% of the country. Go talk to them about the DNC.
I could do the same thing every time a democrat/leftist is elected. But that undermines the point of elections if one side or another refuses to accept the outcome of an election no?
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
Nope. But apparently you are going to persist in being this indecent. How naive does one have to be to pretend that Wikileaks doesn't have an agenda? I understand that you think all 17 intelligence agencies are not to be trusted but that a foreign NGO is, but that's your choice.
Fist off I know a bit about these intelligence agencies. I had a TS/SCI in the army and I know how we hunted people down and what these people are doing. They are using all of those techniques on you and all of us now.
I do not trust the upper management of these intelligence agencies. They are not being good. They are abusing powers they are trusted with. You shouldn't trust them either and you didn't a year ago. These are the same people that fed Bush information pre-Iraq and the same people that helped Obama and Clinton change regimes in half a dozen ME countries and turned the place into a shithole.
According to his posts, he was a passionate Bernie Sanders supporter who later supported, but did not vote for, President Trump. He frequently posted violent threats against Hillary Clinton and her supporters. Christian posted frequently on Facebook, often expressing violently Islamophobic, anti-Semitic, and white supremacist views.
The man is a mentally ill white supremacist.
You misunderstand the "sides." We put Trump in there to dismantle DC.
The city named after General George Washington will not be "dismantled."
The power of the presidency and government created by FDR will not be reverted to a 1920s-style bureaucracy. (Although it's ranks are as empty as if that were the case - but that's because no one wants to work for someone as self-centered and horrible at inspiring loyalty and confidence as President Hands-Off Everything But My Image Trump).
The regulations ushered in by Nixon that protect our air and water and by Teddy Roosevelt to keep consumer products of decent quality and free of poison and adulterated, unlisted chemicals will not be ended.
Conservatives may want a 1790s society and culture and an 1880s regulatory apparatus. It's not going to happen.
"He will ruin the country - mark my words and I will do everything in my legal power to usher in a President Pence before that happens."
I thought the same thing about Obama. Do we want to discuss the damage Obama did to our country?
Tripling the Dow, cutting unemployment in half, no major domestic terrorist attacks of the sort Bush let slip, less intertwining of foreign interests with tyrants like Putin, terrorists like the Saudis. Less scapegoating and xenophobia, no mass firings of scientists or efforts to gut the NIH, CDC or EPA. You know, just plain horrible things.
And if the GOP congress hadn't hamstrung him, he'd have done much better than even that.
Inga said...
No Brookzene isn't me. But I'm very happy he's/ she's here.
Achilles lives in a fantasy land. He thinks Trump the Oligarch King and Trump's Oligarch Cabinet with save us from the Oligarchs. He doesn't even consider Trump's close ties to Russian Oligarchs. He clings to conspiracy theories about Seth Rich and who knows what else. He is the poster boy for Trumpism. Too deluded to even have an inkling that some things are JUST. NOT. REAL.
Shush. The adults are talking.
Fist off I know a bit about these intelligence agencies. I had a TS/SCI in the army and I know how we hunted people down and what these people are doing. They are using all of those techniques on you and all of us now.
I do not trust the upper management of these intelligence agencies. They are not being good. They are abusing powers they are trusted with. You shouldn't trust them either and you didn't a year ago. These are the same people that fed Bush information pre-Iraq and the same people that helped Obama and Clinton change regimes in half a dozen ME countries and turned the place into a shithole.
The question is - why you're giving Wikileaks an unqualified "PASS". Are they somehow managerially pure? What is it - the smaller the organization and the more persecuted its head sees itself, the more infallible they are? The more morally pure they are? Julian Assange has no reason for any loyalty to America. Forget bad people. He doesn't even have a reason to pretend as such.
Maybe we should amend the constitution and make him president.
List these "institutions of stability" please. All I see coming from DC is a bunch of vote buying and cronyism. SS and Medicare are going to be bankrupt decades before I can use it but they find a way to give General Motors 45 billion dollars in tax write offs? This all needs to be dropped to the state level where we can see it.
States will gut as the graft speaks even louder there. You know what is hilarious? Areas of the Rust Belt that voted Trump have often no industry left in their small cities apart from the local hospital. You end Medicaid and you end their principal local industry. You will not end Medicare, either. Seniors will roast you in the Senate Chamber. You actually think they'll settle for healthcare that much worse than what the Congress Critters are getting you to pay for to cover their own worthless asses? That's funny. Not going to happen.
You can't even get GOP congress critters to face the constituents at their town halls that they're trying - to the tune of 20 million Americans - to price out of the health insurance markets.
Health care is complex. It's also highly regulated. So will be its delivery. It's not a wild-west market because then you'd still have states allowing physicians to use leeches. It's regulated and in order to keep its delivery stable the organizations paying for it will also remain regulated. Or else they'll become wards of the state. Your choice.
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
"Because the true heroes of the left have been walking the walk right?"
We're talking about the people on the thread, in the comments section. Is it really that unclear to follow?
You are making this personal. That is boring. We all know the left has provided pretty much all of the violence so far.
"I don't understand why you keep pushing us. Why do you insist this ends in violence?"
This is the way terrorists talk: "You make me angry/insult me, therefore I kill you. My dignity is paramount."
Bullshit. The leftist thugs have been out numerous times with no consequences from several state law enforcement institutions. San Jose, Sante Fe, Berkely etc. If leftists are allowed to attack us with no legal repercussions then it will end badly. Why do you want that?
I understand why Inga or Brookzene or Left Bank thinks it is ok for leftists to beat up righties. They are stupid. For you to excuse it means something else entirely.
"I understand why Inga or Brookzene or Left Bank thinks it is ok for leftists to beat up righties."
Is there no end to this guy's fantasy life? Trump didn't say at one rally after another that he just wants to punch some of those protesters in the face and encouraged his rally goers to do so? He even offered to pay for their legal fees. Such hypocrisy. But in this guy's case it's sheer delusion, not hypocrisy, he actually believes it.
"We all know the left has provided pretty much all of the violence so far."
Such a confirmed liar - no character. This thread is about one of your alt+Right thuggie friends beating up a journalist - a la Vladimir Putin. Another respectable thug to the alt+right. Go away. Your lies don't fool anyone.
A dwindling number of foolish Trump supporters cling to the lies but nobody else believes them.
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
States will gut as the graft speaks even louder there.
Absolutely disagree. Olympia is 1 hour from my house. I go there sometimes. DC? I have no chance to affect anything there.
You know what is hilarious? Areas of the Rust Belt that voted Trump have often no industry left in their small cities apart from the local hospital. You end Medicaid and you end their principal local industry.
Why is there nothing there? Government Regulation. Period.
These areas had competitive industries. Now it is cheaper to build it thousands of miles away and ship it here. We have the most productive workers in the world. We should ask why we are making it too expensive to build things here.
You will not end Medicare, either.
No. But math will.
Seniors will roast you in the Senate Chamber. You actually think they'll settle for healthcare that much worse than what the Congress Critters are getting you to pay for to cover their own worthless asses? That's funny. Not going to happen.
They already are settling for worse than what the Senators get. Remember when the law to force them to live under Obamacare was voted on? I do.
You can't even get GOP congress critters to face the constituents at their town halls that they're trying - to the tune of 20 million Americans - to price out of the health insurance markets.
And you priced millions more out. I know a dozen people now who don't have insurance because they can't afford it. They will wait until they are sick to buy i again.
Health care is complex.
Which is why the government is poorly suited to run it.
It's also highly regulated. So will be its delivery. It's not a wild-west market because then you'd still have states allowing physicians to use leeches. It's regulated and in order to keep its delivery stable the organizations paying for it will also remain regulated. Or else they'll become wards of the state. Your choice.
I think doctors and patients will do a better job of deciding what is a proper treatment than a DC bureaucrat. My wife is a Home-Health nurse. I hear a lot of stories about wards of the state. The most common health issue she deals with are pressure ulcers. I assume you know how those form. Increasing dependency does not help these people.
"But in this guy's case it's sheer delusion, not hypocrisy, he actually believes it."
Whether he believes it or not nobody from any party with a shred of integrity or love of country should give him a single ounce of respect.
Most of the 23 million who will no longer have insurance are young people who are paying for a product meant to subsidize others. Imagine those people not wanting to pay for a product others use!?! Maybe Jonathan Gruber can explain why transparency - like writing checks always brings - is NOT useful to the Deep State.
A similar principle exists with WikiLeaks. The government wishes to conceal its nature for some reason. Let us all try to imagine why. What and whose purposes would that concealment from We, the People serve?
Brookzene said...
A dwindling number of foolish Trump supporters cling to the lies but nobody else believes them.
The sheer amount of unconscious thought that went into this statement is... awesome.
As I said to Inga before the adults are talking. Neither you nor Inga have shown you are the least bit capable of thinking for yourselves or posting an original thought. I am just requesting that at least on this thread you stop mucking it up with this boring crap. I will happily respond to something useful and thoughtful.
Brookzene said...
"But in this guy's case it's sheer delusion, not hypocrisy, he actually believes it."
Whether he believes it or not nobody from any party with a shred of integrity or love of country should give him a single ounce of respect.
I do like this because I like extremes. This one is Irony.
4 deployments fighting for your right to type that. Is there any doubt why they think it is ok to attack Trump supporters?
These are your friends TTR. These are the people that agree with you. There are thinking people on your side but if you let the unthinking idiots lead you you will end up somewhere you don't want to be.
"Whether he believes it or not nobody from any party with a shred of integrity or love of country should give him a single ounce of respect."
Precisely. He tries to reel in TTR with his appeals to his intelligence. I'm quite certain TTR sees through this.
"4 deployments fighting for your right to type that."
Oh blah blah blah, others who have a diametrically opposed viewpoint to yours also serve and have served. So go wrap yourself in the flag somewhere else. Go hug a Russian.
@ Inga
Tell me again about Absolute Moral Authority when it applied to your make believe children.
And how Achilles has no Absolute Moral Authority because he suffers from Wrong Think.
And now about why Government wishes to conceal its true workings, does any Leftist want to take a stab?
Achilles sees himself as a "thinking person". Another delusion.
Birkel, your issues are far worse than poor Achilles.
We're talking about the people on the thread, in the comments section. Is it really that unclear to follow?
You are making this personal. That is boring.
YOu know what's boring? People who can't follow a simple conversation unless they're entertained.
Reality and how it's observed is under no obligation to entertain you. With nonsense responses like these (and you're far from the only offender here) it's obvious that we get the government we deserve. Run by people of whom you approve who think that others have an obligation to entertain them, rather than that they follow a simple obligation to serve.
Go play with paint guns or video arcade games if you want entertainment. Talk about forfeiting this claim you're making to be one of the only adults in the comments.
This is not a game.
I remember when Althouse had a comments section, instead of the Ritmo's Playpen she has now.
I made substantive points and they were ignored.
Somehow I thought that was what Althouse requested we do.
Absolutely disagree.
On no basis whatsoever. State governments can and regularly are bribed. But you are lucky enough to live in a blue enough state like Washington to not understand this.
Why is there nothing there? Government Regulation. Period.
These areas had competitive industries. Now it is cheaper to build it thousands of miles away and ship it here. We have the most productive workers in the world. We should ask why we are making it too expensive to build things here.
That's not government regulation, sparky. That's DE-REGULATION that did that. Open borders and free trade are DEREGULATING, not regulating. Get it right.
And you priced millions more out. I know a dozen people now who don't have insurance because they can't afford it. They will wait until they are sick to buy i again.
Wow. Get a clue. I'm sure the dozen anecdotes you have are a real mathematical match to rival the 24 million who will be priced out. And before you talked about math. Here's some math "dozens" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 24 million. I'm here arguing reality with a guy who values entertainment over facts and personal anecdotes over objective data. This must be a real unfair fight for you.
Health care is complex.
Which is why the government is poorly suited to run it.
WRONG. If you disagree then go to Olympia right now and ask them to dismantle their state boards of MEDICINE, NURSING, PHARMACY, and every other one of the "over 200" boards they operate in this supposedly evil attempt to make sure businesses aren't harming people in a way that couldn't be discerned with 1790s knowledge.
I think doctors and patients will do a better job of deciding what is a proper treatment than a DC bureaucrat.
Then you must have failed the part in economics where they teach about something called "asymmetrical knowledge" and the role it plays in making sure consumers are not matched in their economic clout against highly trained, degreed professionals with 12+ more years' worth of knowledge in how to price and sell things that the consumers do not and never will have any competitive way to understand in equal detail, let alone out-bargain.
These are your friends TTR. These are the people that agree with you. There are thinking people on your side but if you let the unthinking idiots lead you you will end up somewhere you don't want to be.
Hey. Well, at least they agree with me on the importance of considering evidence and objective data in the things we decide on as a country. And on the importance of not throwing ordinary citizens under the bus so that billionaires can pay less tax. Or on the fact that Trump will hurt people in real ways that don't compare to the abstract "enemy" of the actual government that our constitution founded. Or the institutions that evolved to make sure agencies are delegated responsibilities to keep our air and water clean in ways that couldn't be dirtied in 1790. Or our consumer products safe from poisons that chemists didn't know how to manufacture before 1880.
Your enemy is abstract. Ours are real. We will win because the damage that your Presidential Windmill Tilter is doing is real and affects people lives. Whereas when you just attack something as abstract as "government" while cheering the same Paul Ryan whose health insurance YOU'RE paying for, you're just assuaging the monsters that live under your bed.
What makes Paul Ryan's health coverage so much more worthy of your tax burden than any other ordinary citizen's? Can't he navigate his way through that awesome, completely unregulated medical market that you delude yourself into thinking that could exist?
Hey, an unregulated medical market. Neat idea! Where do we sign up for leech therapy? No ethical protections for patients whatsoever! AWESOME! Hopefully hospitals will achieve the kill rate of their patients that they had back in 1890 - which for you must be like the golden age of deregulation.
I'm sure Trump's tax cuts for the rich will lift all boats and the wealth will trickle down to Achilles, the "thinking person". Health insurance will just magically become more affordable and premiums will never go up under TrumpCare. That's what happens in Fantasy Land.
Anybody see the CBO report was written by a Clinton Campaign donor?
23 million may lose insurance and most are choosing not to buy because subsidizing others is NOT something people want to do.
Health insurance will just magically become more affordable and premiums will never go up under TrumpCare.
Trumpcare (which will never pass the senate) is a way of getting young and healthy adults to stop being incentivized to pay into the system so that the sick people who need it at an affordable price won't get it.
We have people who don't even understand basic insurance concepts on this thread arguing about insurance markets.
But hey. At least they're willing to pay for Paul Ryan's top-of-the-line health care coverage. Just not for Joe Schmoe's down the road.
Freedom is being forced to have your tax dollars going to pay for Paul Ryan's government insurance. (Which he seems to oddly prefer to the "market-based" alternative). Freedom is also making sure that the insurance market is tilted against the ordinary citizens who NEED that coverage.
Freedom is the freedom to screw your fellow citizens and throw them under the bus, whilst being forced to pay out nice top dollar to Paul Ryan's healthcare coverage.
This is the backwards world in which the Trumpistas live. Everything is abstraction. Don't assault them with facts. Facts are bad.
"Anybody see the CBO report was written by a Clinton Campaign donor?"
More fake conspiracy news from the Alt+Right
.
@ Brookzene
FEC donations are public record.
@ TTR
Now that you have defined "screw your fellow citizens" to mean pay less to the federal government, can you also define war as peace and slavery as freedom.
But do it more explicitly this time.
Sure Birkel. Who is the author of the CBO report? How much and to whom/what did she give? What is your source?
Let's hear all about it.
They love their Russians and they love their fake news.
Hey, you're the turkey who's paying Paul Ryan's healthcare bill. While identifying with billionaires as if they were one of your own.
Which is hilarious.
@ Brookzene
My days of doing Google searches, unpaid, for people who will ignore any links I provide never started. You can find the information yourself or not at all.
@ TTR
You have both assured me that the Senate will not pass the House bill and that I am currently already paying for that same House bill.
Consistency. Do you speak it?
"My days of doing Google searches, unpaid, for people who will ignore any links I provide never started. You can find the information yourself or not at all."
=
"I just lie or say crap I heard on InfoWars and pass it off as gospel. Because I myself believe my lies and, of course, Alex Jones."
@ Brookzene
I know that the person and website you mention exist because Leftists like yourself mention them. They are insignificant.
It must be nice to devalue people and define them based on your predefined notions. Is there a word for that?
I no eats the gold cat poo uh oh oopsies.
OOPSIES!
Please Mr. Kennedy, don't send me to the moon.
UH OH OOPSIES!
DOUBLE OOPSIES POO POO!!
Birkel is a black hole of bullshit and constant confusion. Just a messy maelstrom of premature premises and foregone conclusions.
It is beyond obvious that no one has ever sought his input on anything. For good reason. He's like the hermit on the top of the mountain that shouts down at the people that they're wasting their time not climbing up to waste away like he does.
"They are insignificant."
As insignificant as you coming in here saying ""Anybody see the CBO report was written by a Clinton Campaign donor?" and then having NOTHING whatsoever to back that up? Not a name, not a figure, not a source.
Is there a word for that? Oh yeah. Lying. Fake news.
@ Brookzene
So the person who wrote the CBO report, On which the criticism of the House bill is based is equivalent to a nobody and a nothing website?
Would you like help moving your fancy new goal posts.
@ TTR
Am I paying for the House bill or is it never passing the Senate?
The obtuseness knows no bounds for this poverty case known as "Birkel."
He doesn't know the difference between the fact that he is, was and always will be paying for congressional health care and the fact that the Ryan bill only shifts costs from the healthy to the sick. So if he's healthy, he'll pay little or choose not to purchase insurance altogether. And then when he gets sick, he'll be thrown into bankruptcy either by the bills themselves or by the premiums that they'd be free to raise them to. (But no caps on CEO pay or ad budgets)! Yeay! So it's a bill that, like all Republican initiatives, shifts cost burdens from the healthy and wealthy to the sick and destitute.
But it won't pass the Senate.
I realize all this is too complicated for someone as manipulative and dishonest and simpleminded as Birkel. But I'm sure any intelligent person can understand what was said in there.
Birkel:
It's your so-called information that's literally "nothing". You're a fake.
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
Health care is complex. It's also highly regulated. So will be its delivery. It's not a wild-west market because then you'd still have states allowing physicians to use leeches.
You really need to read more about modern medicine before you post stupid and ignorant things.
http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/modern-leeching/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3757849/
Just two of the many articles on their use today.
And the complex highly regulated health care market brings us mandatory chiropractic coverage, AKA quackcare, in New York, home of many chiropractic "colleges". I can just about guarantee if I could gut that from my insurance plan I'd see at a minimum a 10% rate reduction.
"Birkel is a black hole of bullshit"
Someone has your number.
@ TTR
So no law is passed and you assure me it won't be passed -AND- I am already paying for this non-legislation. That is not logical. You exude emotion and disdain. But you couldn't convince anybody outside the choir with that "heads we win, tails you lose" rhetoric.
Also, are you saying people who get sick will bear that cost? And that deserves and demands moral outrage from all people who do not suffer Wrong Think? And the answer is not to devote your own dollars as an act of charity but to demand others pay?
When did you first know your moral outrage have you authority over me?
@ Brookzene
You could go read about these things. You could check the FEC disclosures. You could educate yourself, physician.
"You could go read about these things. You could check the FEC disclosures. You could educate yourself, physician."
Oh, snap! This is the clown who was earlier telling us about the extra triple size IQ he and his sister have, isn't it? WTF am I wasting my time with this fool for?
"It must be nice to devalue people and define them based on your predefined notions. Is there a word for that?"
Yes, it's called birkeling. Something you do at every opportunity.
"Oh, snap! This is the clown who was earlier telling us about the extra triple size IQ he and his sister have, isn't it? WTF am I wasting my time with this fool for?"
Yes. He also tells people they have no children and that they invented them.
Birkel's writing in incoherent run-on sentences again.
He seems to have a problem understanding that the subsidies MOCs receive for their costs (about 70%) are paid for by the taxpayer. That won't change under their bill. Before that, they received care through the FEHBP. This all goes way above Birkel's fat head, of course. He doesn't even know how to write in grammatically coherent sentences, let alone what these concepts mean.
Charities won't and never have prevented large numbers of people dying from healthcare costs. They also never prevented small business owners from going bankrupt or lacking portability, as was the case before the ACA.
Of course, if you asked him to name an insurance industry that didn't pool costs - which is what he advocates - he couldn't do it. With other products they wouldn't be competitive if they did this. But health care doesn't need to be competitive and can't be. The supply of providers is constrained by expertise and training needs that don't apply to auto mechanics.
Birkel is not only so dumb that he doesn't understand this, he seems to blame his idiocy and ignorance on what he can't understand from what people who do have access to that information have explained.
Not many people blame their ignorance on what those more knowledgeable than they actually know. But Birkel's a special kind of retrograde. Not only does he insist that his idiocy is correct, he blames his idiocy on what people who know more than he does are capable of understanding.
It's the equivalent of blaming one's poor chess skills on Bobby Fisher or Spassky. Or blaming one's inability to qualify for Olympic swimming competitions on Michael Phelps.
What Republicans are incapable of, they blame on the capable. Pretty crazy but being an asshole apparently requires an idiotic justification.
I didn't say you had no children. I said you pretended to have children for every occasion. I said you did that because you believed, wrongly, that this would give you Absolute Moral Authority.
Also, I do not devalue you as a person. I mock your poor argumentation. Argue better. I still won't wrestle a pig, however.
Pooling risk at the point of a gun is different than offering people a policy that will pool risk that they can take or leave.
What is it about the use of government coercion that you prefer?
Check it out, everybody! Birkel actually believes that insurance purchasing decisions have been made through the barrel of a gun! Awesome in its stunningly idiotic lack of reality. What a great manifesto writer Birkel will make in his attic, on the watch for government agents, complete with helmets and bulletproof gear as they bust in his door to demand he make a premium payment.
Seriously, dipshit: Lay off the mescaline and steroids. They're making you even more paranoid than usual.
There is something deeply wrong with him, I think everyone who interacts with him senses it.
All right, I want to end for myself here on a positive note:
https://www.facebook.com/FrankSomervilleKTVU/posts/1186833578046634:0
There's a nice story for everyone. You too, Birkel. Let's find some fucking common ground here everybody. Let's not always be tearing each other down!
Okay g'night.
Thanks Brookzene, yes that's is a great story. Good way to end this thread for me too.
If you're FORCED to buy insurance by the government, it's at the point of a gun. That's how all laws are ultimately enforced. If you think otherwise, ask Eric Garner for his opinion.
@ TTR and Inga
So when you get your single payer system government officials will not arrest people for non-compliance? Interesting theory.
War is Peace.
Oh yeah most definitely! My last traffic ticket fine was enforced with arrest and the barrel of a gun, too!
If only the government were as uncreative as you persecution complex psychological warriors. Must take quite a bit of courage to get out of bed at the beginning of each day, given how much energy the government spends figuring out ways to "get" you!
Who's hiding under that bed? Boo! It's the government! Scary!
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
Oh yeah most definitely! My last traffic ticket fine was enforced with arrest and the barrel of a gun, too!
Wasn't it?
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
Freedom is being forced to have your tax dollars going to pay for Paul Ryan's government insurance. (Which he seems to oddly prefer to the "market-based" alternative). Freedom is also making sure that the insurance market is tilted against the ordinary citizens who NEED that coverage.
You are arguing against nobody. We wanted the Senate to live by the law they passed. That is the only reason it became an issue.
Freedom is the freedom to screw your fellow citizens and throw them under the bus, whilst being forced to pay out nice top dollar to Paul Ryan's healthcare coverage.
You are making shit up to make your argument more appealing. You don't even try to defend obamacare honestly.
This is the backwards world in which the Trumpistas live. Everything is abstraction. Don't assault them with facts. Facts are bad.
Not sure if you are trying to be Ironic. You made up a bunch of abstractions and claimed they were what? Facts?
If you want to incentivize young people to participate in a market and buy insurance then provide products that make sense to them. Bare bones cheap plans with decent catastrophic coverage are what they want and for the most part need. If you want young families to have a chance they need different options.
There is nothing on the open market for my Brother that even close to makes sense. His options hover around 800$ a month with 5 figure deductibles for him and his daughter. That is ridiculous and insane. He can't even come close to affording that. His 60-80K a year puts him out of reach for the "subsidies."
My wife gets gold plated insurance compared to everyone else we know. The best insurance plan we can get costs 3-4000$ a year and a 3000$ deductible before covering 50-90% of costs. We have to put our kids on Applecare. The current system is a complete joke meant to destroy the working middle class.
I guarantee a medical system that was more like the Eye surgery system or the Cosmetic surgery industry would be cheaper and better. They have much lower regulations because they are not covered by medicare and they are considered differently than most care. Every year these surgeries get better, cheaper, and more available. Not like the system our government messes up.
I guarantee a medical system that was more like the Eye surgery system or the Cosmetic surgery industry would be cheaper and better. They have much lower regulations because they are not covered by medicare and they are considered differently than most care.
This shows how little you know. Those surgeries are less risky than most care and more aligned with "boutique" practices that cater exclusively to the wealthy, with 24-hour pager access and other things that do nothing to expand access - let alone bring it near universality. You are continuing to make the rookie mistake of looking at healthcare as a luxury good, like flying first class on an Emirates airline - instead of the necessary commodity that it is and always will be - as expensive and regulated as it is. Nor will it ever be unregulated. Regulations are how states (ALL FIFTY OF THEM) makes sure that safe and effective practice standards in these high-risk fields are adhered to. That will only change the day that one state gets the stupid idea to treat medical practice the way it would regulate a McDonalds or roadside food truck. Just not going to happen. Ever. Lose the idea and get over it.
That doesn't mean that there isn't room for other innovative changes to increase quality and access - but that won't happen the way you fantasize - through less regulation. All that less regulation ever does is to enrich providers and their CEOs.
The ACA needs to be fixed but the Republicans don't have any clue on how to do that because they can't agree on whether or not pricing 24 MILLION Americans out of the market - as was the case before - is worth a few less people having lower premiums. You think you and your anecdotes are more important than they are. But I don't and I think the Republicans realize that math matters when votes are tallied. I see what happens when people are priced out of the market. I realize that as a Republican you tend toward a self-centered and isolating view of society where only what happens to you or people you know matters. But the greater numbers of Americans who will be harmed and ultimately in many cases maimed or killed by being priced out of coverage also matter. You don't care about covering the greatest number for the best cost and with the best quality. But I do and so do most Americans and so does nearly every affected ethical stakeholder involved: Doctors, nurses, hospitals and the AARP. A rare moment of alignment. Only the insurance companies are trying to play this game that the Republicans just pulled with that bill. Everyone else knows it will make things worse - including the voters. Republicans can't even face their constituents in town halls any more, so they're finally starting to open their thick skulls and listen.
Maybe you should, too.
Anecdotes are not objective data. That's one thing that doctors have to know to treat effectively that you should learn, too. Your brother is at most one data point. So is my brother. To solve this problem effectively though the millions of other data points have to be considered as well. Stop pretending that all these other Americans to whom you're not related don't matter. Throwing them under the bus just so you think you can make life better for a few people you know is no solution - it's a myopic implementation of a political fiefdom.
Every year these surgeries get better, cheaper, and more available. Not like the system our government messes up.
This is another funny howler. You say what you say as if improved care standards and practices and technology aren't taken into consideration by the payers. They absolutely are. But it NEVER starts with the private market. The private insurers almost always follow Medicare's (and Medicaid's?) lead. Imagine that. The government assesses the same data that the professional organizations (medical specialists associations) evaluate on what is or is not a good innovation to make it closer to first-line (or any-line) therapy. Then CMS decides to cover it. Only after that happens do the greedy and risk-averse private insurers follow suit - and not because they care about their patients or any shit like that. But to stay competitive with CMS.
If you have access to common sense you might realize that certain populations are always and inherently more vulnerable. The best of these are the elderly - because they're politically active. Also very much more prone to illness. Private insurers aren't too keen on them, and they may be retired - making our employer-based system out of reach for them. So we keep up with Medicare. Medicare is through the government - so I assume you think it is therefore ipso facto a disaster. Go poll the seniors and see if they agree. They will probably hit you with a cane.
So Medicare is never going away, thank the Higher Power, and it serves as a lesson for the fact that our other most vulnerable populations cannot be thrown under the bus, either. But it just goes to show how fundamental error you make by ranting against government and regulation. You go show me a private insurer who will provide a senior with anything close, on average, to what Medicare provides him/her. Multiply that experience by our other vulnerable populations: those with rare/expensive diseases, the poor (working or otherwise), etc. Then we'll talk. Fixing problems like the one you talk about when referencing your brother will be easy - small potatoes - compared to keeping things right for these other populations. Problem is, the Republicans are too obtuse or ethically disadvantaged to figure out how to do that - and fear the insurance lobby more than Democrats do. But it is much easier and better to fix those problems without screwing over the poor, the elderly and the chronically ill than vice versa.
How does it work when you assume the predicate?
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