September 26, 2016

The big debate.

I'm not going to try to live-blog. I'm just going to watch straight through and see how the whole thing affects me — me, attempting to experience reality like a normal person, not a blogging machine. But please, do comment. Keep up the conversation. I'll join in eventually.

ADDED: Jaltcoh — my son, John Althouse Cohen — is live-blogging. He's good at this. Check it out.

AND: On watching the debate straight through: That was intense. Those 2 faces on the split screen for 90 minutes was quite the ordeal. How many times did Trump lean into the microphone and say "wrong" while Clinton was speaking? There was plenty of interrupting from both candidates, and it almost turned into the event that Trump had proposed: No moderator. Not that Lester Holt didn't attempt to fact-check Trump a few times.

Trump brought a lot of stress to the event, and Clinton certainly stood up to him. She even managed to flash a smile a number of times — even though there was never a thing to smile about (and really no humor whatsoever). Clinton never coughed, and there was no flagging of energy. It was Trump who needed to drink water and wipe the sweat from his upper lip with his finger a few times. Clinton was a bit artificial, but she never got dead and robotic the way we've seen elsewhere.

Substantively, it's mostly a blur now. Trump seemed strong talking about law and order and, later, blaming Clinton for the rise of ISIS. Clinton got very severe accusing Trump of racism early on (over the issue of whether Barack Obama was born in the U.S.A.) and, at the end, sexism (letting fly with a prepared list of misogynistic things Trump supposedly did or said).

Overall, I'll just say that was very unpleasant and I'm glad it's over. I switched it off without stopping to listen to any of the spin.

Who do you think won?




pollcode.com free polls

UPDATE: Poll results:

371 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 371 of 371
PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

April,

The dude has been a registered R since 03. Odds are that's longer than the R candidate himself.

Matthew Sablan said...

Trump was a lot more gentle with her than people expected. He was rough, treating her like any other opponent he had in the other debates. But the really nasty Trump people were expecting didn't come out.

320Busdriver said...

Back to the boardroom in Trump Tower. MAGA Someone is going to get fired!

AprilApple said...

Holt? Don't be silly.

john said...

April,

I heard on the radio earlier that Holt was a registered republican.

AprilApple said...

You don't have to be nasty to pound her on her corruption.

Anonymous said...

What a disaster for Trump. But we knew it would be. The Trumpists here maybe, just maybe, will wake up from their hypnotic trance...or not. Have to wait and see what Scott Adams says about it I guess, lol.

AprilApple said...

A registered R who votes for Democrats.

john said...

Oh, PBJ heard that too.

I didn't think he did too bad.

AprilApple said...

Sorry unknown - Your candidate is still a corrupt money grubbing fraud and a total liar.

Chuck said...

Is there any commentary on the Trump snorting noises?

tim in vermont said...

The Trumpists here maybe, just maybe, will wake up from their hypnotic trance.

Right, and switch to the corrupt, war-mongering Hillary? Who lies as she breathes? Sure.

jacksonjay said...

Wrong!

Matthew Sablan said...

Honestly, as not a fan of either candidate, I see this as a push. Neither one made a commanding case, and they both had lots of weak points.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I asked why he snorts so much. He calls Rosie O Donnell a pig, he sounds like one. Disgusting, all in all the man is disgusting.

exiledonmainstreet said...

I thought she won - but I am a poor judge of how LIV's and undecideds view these things.

She was polished - and very much the professional politician. That might not work in her favor.

David said...

All of the CNN talking heads think Trump blew it.

They are going to be awfully upset if the voters do not agree.

That said, their conventional wisdom criticism of Trump's performance is accurate from their context.

Anonymous said...

Let's wait and see what becomes of all the investigations into Trump's ties to Russian banks( Russian Mafia) and how much he really owes and to who. Release your taxes Drumpf!

AprilApple said...

Rosie O is a pig. So what?

wildswan said...

Hillester probably didn't persuade anybody that she will change the course the country is on. And Trump probably persuaded people that he would try for it. Hillester spent a lot of time engaging in personal attacks and pushing oppo research and not a lot on how to fix the country. Trump went back to how to fix the country. That's what I saw and that is a winning outcome for Trump. Still I'll have to wait to see beyond the media to how the voters saw it.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

DJT won according to more than 90% of the folks who fill out polls at Drudge.

Rob said...

She didn't collapse or have wildly inappropriate affect, he didn't go nuts. On content, she probably has some edge, but the fact that he stood there looking as presidential as she means it was pretty much a draw. And a draw is, for him, a win.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Unknown, you'd better hope this debate swayed a lot of people. Trump and Clinton were tied in Minnesota - deep blue Minnesota - in the polls today.

I notice you haven't been around since Hillary took a dive on 9/11. You'll disappear again if this debate doesn't make much difference in the polls. You're cowardly like that.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Let's wait and see what becomes of all the investigations into Trump's ties to Russian banks( Russian Mafia) and how much he really owes and to who. Release your taxes Drumpf!"

-- Yes. We should investigate him.

We should also investigate Clinton. We have emails where Clinton surrogates call what is going on pay-to-play and discuss a Hillary cover up, but we're just ignoring those.

In any rational world, neither of these two would be candidates. But, here we are.

mockturtle said...

Neither is a good debater. Trump had ample ammunition to have demolished her tonight but he wasn't focused enough to deploy it. Like her mishandling of classified information. Like her being in bed with the Saudis. Like the Clintons' donations from China in exchange for favored nation status. Like her lying to Congress. I think Trump won on issues but neither was sharp.

I'm looking forward to the VP debate.

Matthew Sablan said...

The VP debate: Two guys who everyone kind of wishes were at the top of the ticket, but... well, here we are.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

DJT is on CNN saying he's proud that he didn't bring up WJC's indiscretions. He says he held back for Chelsea's benefit.

But, he may let loose in the next debate.

Ha ha.

vicari valdez said...

this is farcical – we know that clinton is probably going to win, being a sure thing for capital and all, and trump’s mainly there to rally the proto-fascists in case the commies get uppity during a clinton presidency. that’s just my intuitive guess, but considering how history repeats itself (yes, first as tragedy then as farce), i doubt i’m that far off.

Anonymous said...

We'll see what the polls have to say in a few days. This debate was a disaster for Trump. He melted down in the first five minutes and it was all downhill from there. Adios Amigo.

Matthew Sablan said...

He can unload on Clinton at this point and be doing it from a level playing field. She's accused him of deeply personal things. She has officially opened the gates to personal, nasty attacks. I don't think he should; I think getting nasty is part of the problem with our political culture.

But, hey. Ask Romney and McCain how well it worked to meet political assassination with "My opponent's a real nice person."

tim in vermont said...

Why Unknown keeps bringing up Russia, I will never know, but since she did, she might like to read this New York Times story on Clinton...


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0

AprilApple said...

Buck Sexton sums it up:

Holt has not asked about Hillarys emails, state dept pay to play allegations, or her 3 decades of scandal in public life. This is a disgrace.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

"Like her being in bed with the Saudis."

I didn't think Huma was Saudi.

Chuck said...

Trump makes a lot of noises. There are three main categories, leaving out the mostly-intentional noises he makes in the form of words.

So there are the sound effects (this is funny):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCC0n4fBwkc

There are the weird old man breathy sorts of noises (this is a bit weird):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdyj5VlmTTs

And then there were tonight's snorting noises, for which there is no video compilation yet. It was like those breathing noises but with about 50% more "grunt" added.

AprilApple said...

Trump should ask Clinton why she takes so much money from Islamic states who throw gays off tall buildings.

Anonymous said...

Trump's campaign will probably talk him out of participating in another debate.

tim in vermont said...

He should have goaded her on climate change. Stick a pry bar into her coalition.

Bad Lieutenant said...

PB said...
current policy: no pre-emptive use.
9/26/16, 9:29 PM


The US has never renounced first use (and should not). Do you mean something else?

Anonymous said...

Chuck, so right, that one where he sucks in air through his teeth is especially creepy. Like a snake almost.

SukieTawdry said...

Trump should have wiped the floor with Clinton, she was that bad. He, however, was possibly the most ill-prepared debater ever.

hombre said...

Same old. Same old.

Moderator asks loaded questions. Democrat bullshits articulately. Republican struggles to deal with it. Moderator interrupts, argues with, Republican.

Bush-Kerry number one revisited.

PB said...

Yes it was unpleasant. A competent debater would have crucified Hillary. She teed up so many balls that Trump should have hit for home runs. example.

-when she said we need to see Trumps tax returns to see who he owes, Trump should have replied that's exactly the same reason why we need to see all your emails.

-on cyber security, he should have teed off again on the emails. and who she owes and how she could be blackmailed by foreign state actors.

Anonymous said...

Moderator is a Republican.

Big Mike said...

I confess. I couldn't bring myself to look at either one of them one more time and I skipped the debate. There was a PBS-UK channel showing an episode of "Midsomer Murders" I hadn't seen before so I watched that instead. I thank all of you for enduring the pain.

But if it really was a draw, then, as Rob says, that's a win for Trump.

(And I'll be Trump really pays very little in taxes -- our crazy quilt tax laws as written by legislators beholden to large donors allows ample room for creative accounting. I don't blame him. If there was a legal way for me to shave one thin dime off my federal taxes I'd do it in a minute. But, can anyone tell me whether Hillary Clinton has released her taxes?)

tim in vermont said...

Chuck, so right, that one where he sucks in air through his teeth is especially creepy. Like a snake almost. - Unknown

Hey Chuck, even the Hillary trolls think you are a Hillary troll!

PB said...

I don't think it's a matter of preparation. Trump can't set his ego aside to really respond properly and boy did she serve up some really fat slow pitches.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Moderator is a Republican."

-- And? He was still biased and terrible.

sane_voter said...

I thought Trump bitch slapped Holt rather well, talked over him when needed and fact checked them both quite well. I think Trump did what he had to do at this debate: show a reasonable command of the issues, didn't step on his own dick, and be a plausible commander in chief. Could he have done better, yes. But it was good enough.

tim in vermont said...

Chuck is a "life-long Republican" too. I am sure he would have given DJT a fair shake!

AprilApple said...

Clinton Foundation Donors Got Weapons Deals From Hillary Clinton’s State Department

Hillary Clinton Denounces Corporate Crime While Accepting Cash From Blackstone, Firm Sanctioned By SEC

Clintons And Foundation Raked In Cash From Banks That Admitted Wrongdoing


but but but-- Donny called Rosie a pig!

hombre said...

"The dude has been a registered R since 03. Odds are that's longer than the R candidate himself."

It's good cover.

Dead giveaway: Raising the "birther" issue during the "race segment."

Limited blogger said...

Trump was good enough. I agree.

Anonymous said...

Oh bullshit, Holtz wasn't biased. Trump was incompetant and unprepared, same as he would be as a Preaident. End of story.

The Cracker Emcee said...

I think Trump cleared the bar that everyone was setting for him prior to the debate. Don't meltdown, don't get wild, be firm but don't get overly provoked. He did all that and more. Was anyone expecting this to be a substantive debate? For those bemoaning the fact that Trump didn't savage Hillary, the debate isn't supposed to be red meat for the base. It's persuasion for the undecideds. Beating up the old lady is not persuasion.

Matthew Sablan said...

I thought Trump actually handled that well.

"Dude, even CNN knows that Clinton raised the issue, and I just closed it."

Frankly, they both came out of that looking sleazy. Which is fine, since they kind of are.

surfed said...

Didn't watch the debate. Read Erik Larson's new book about the Lusitania "Dead Wake" instead. Now I don't have to shower to get the stench off.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Oh bullshit, Holtz wasn't biased. "

-- Holt failed to shush the crowd when it went against Trump. The only time he did was when the crowd rallied about Clinton's emails. When Clinton told him to move on or give her more time, he did without question. He would fight with or argue over Trump when Trump asked for a right to respond. He routinely gave Clinton multiple responses, rarely giving Trump the same.

He played it exactly like any other main stream moderator would have.

He was bad.

tim in vermont said...

We all know you are are real open minded straight shooter Unknown, and your opinion can be trusted to be both open minded and fair!

David Begley said...

Althouse and Meade need to go to the WI rally.

sane_voter said...

Trump is the obvious change agent and Hillary is more of the same. Pretty clear cut choice.

tim in vermont said...

Unknown,
Why didn't Hillary tell Obama that she was taking those millions from the Russians the way she promised? Because she lies to him same as everybody else!

Anonymous said...

So you didn't watch the debate tonight, Tim in Vermont? Or do you live on the planet Traditionalguy does? You don't need to trust me, just open your damn eyes.

The Cracker Emcee said...

Chuck and Unknown are in complete agreement. 'Nuff said.

CStanley said...

Anything can happen in the next few weeks and perhaps Trump will perform better next time or some other factors or events might matter more, but there are two big reasons that I think tonight will hurt him.

One is that she successfully created the visual contrast in temperaments. Readers here may not think that's true, or may not agree that it's an issue, but there are voters who still might be persuadable to vote for Trump if they see him being more temperate and disciplined- qualities he failed to display tonight,

And second, for people who support Trump a major feature is his toughness and ability to close deals but he left so much in the table tonight.

Joe said...

Just remember that nobody wins elections from a debate; you can only lose them. Neither side fell apart in the predicted way, so it's a wash.

Mike said...

I switched it off half way through. Trump missed so many opportunities. He'd win if he could calmly discuss policies rather than acting like a wise guy from Queens.

tim in vermont said...

just open your damn eyes.

You think Hillary will be a great president, you are clearly deluded.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

"He'd win if he could calmly discuss policies rather than acting like a wise guy from Queens."

I'm not sure he was acting.

Freeman Hunt said...

Hillary did better than expected. Trump did worse. Can't believe one of them really is going to be president.

Anonymous said...

Trump fell completely apart. Well he was never "together" to begin with. What a spectacle. I hope y'all are proud of your "candidate".

Matthew Sablan said...

All i know is the next debate is going to probably be the nastiest, most personal election ever. I can see it now.

"You told a jury the rape victim literally was asking for it from older men!"

"You RAPED YOUR WIFE!"

"You covered up your husband's rape!"

"You're literally Hitler!"

"You can't use literally right!"

Anonymous said...

Of course he wasn't acting, that IS who Trump is.

sane_voter said...

I think "Unknown" is Paul Begala

tim in vermont said...

I hope you are proud of the lying influence peddler you support, Unknown!

Bad Lieutenant said...

I'd like to be a fly on the wall in the respective campaign post-debate on each side.

Other than a little eye crossing at the beginning, which I stopped looking for, she seemed well medicated. The best doctors.

Trump could have possibly helped himself more and I think, now he's seen what the future holds and how these are going to be, he will adjust. But he didn't melt or throw things or run screaming from the room and that's really about all he had to do.

He looked fine. She needed to crack him like an egg and she didn't. She also needed to not drop dead on stage and she did do that, although somebody said she started coughing later. I wonder how much more of that she could have taken. I would have liked to see him crack her like an egg, and he didn't, but he didn't need to. He's shown that he's not the monster that he's painted to be. And that's what he needed to do.

Frankly the other most important thing that he did for himself was to get the makeup perfect. They also did a good job on her. No expense spared on the embalming fluid. Perhaps close examination of the films will show symptoms that I didn't notice.

Yancey Ward said...

I watched the entire thing. Trump held his own, and his performance won’t hurt his chances, but here is the thing:

He missed the golden opportunity to put it away. If there were going to be a clear winner here tonight, it would be the candidate who brought the most positive attitude towards changing the direction of the country. Of the two candidates, this is far easier for the challenger against the incumbent party, but Trump failed to do that for the most part, letting himself be put on the defensive. And if he could have done that, it would have contrasted very, very favorably to Clinton who was negative almost the entire way.

Hillary probably took the only path she could tonight- attack relentlessly, but it didn’t knock Trump out, and became less effective every time she seemed to look to Holt for help. Also, everyone already knows that she has policy chops, or least can mimic it- that isn’t what holds her back, and tonight won’t solve her real problem, which is that no one wants to have to listen to her for the next 4 years. Indeed, tonight will only reinforce that in all but her most firm supporters.

Freeman Hunt said...

Would like to see a candidate go with a light touch next time. How about a fireside chat instead of standing on stage next time?

cubanbob said...

Hillary laid out her economic policies quite succinctly: she is a Peronist and if she had her way we would be Argentina.

So besides being a grifter, criminal and traitor she is a fascist. Marvelous. No Republican could have dreamt of having an opponent so uniquely awful and here comes Trumpy hitting fouls when he could have hit home runs. The best thing is despite it all its a draw. Next time he needs to actually practice debate and assume the moderator is not even handed.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

"Trump seemed strong talking about law and order"

Really?

If that was strong, are there any words that satisfactorily describe his law and order "plans" from the convention?

"I have a message for all of you: The crime and violence that today afflicts our nation will soon, and I mean very soon, will come to an end. Beginning on January 20th of 2017, safety will be restored,"

That's a strong law and order plan to MAGA.

Bad Lieutenant said...

I will say she was at her best tonight. I don't think she can sound any better than that or look any better than that. That's not really a compliment and it doesn't make me want her elected but she's a gamer. I hope that Trump can do a lot better in the next debate.

Probably the best way to handle this whole format thing would be to have the debates be entirely text-based. With an equal number of characters for each side.

tim in vermont said...

Also, everyone already knows that she has policy chops,

Yes, the "farce that launched a thousand refugee ships."

Bob said...

What was missing from this debate was the sense of "grand design" worthy of a president with a sense of history, of what the presidency means for the country. Neither Trump nor Clinton can articulate these visionary themes anywhere near as well as Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, (Bill) Clinton, and even Obama could.

Hillary is just a bullet-point list of tasks to accomplish and constituencies to serve. She's well-informed and "factual" of course, but that's really about it. Trump is too bombastic to articulate a vision other than "Hillary is a mess" and "I'm gonna get our allies to pay what they owe us". That might make good policy, but it's not realistic and it's not much of a vision ("Make America Great Again"? Please!).

Well, Hillary wasn't a mess tonight, and she held together long enough to get some mo from this effort. I've thought all along she will win, even though I think it would be fun to have Trump humiliate her. I really like the idea of Trump, a plain-spoken guy who says what he thinks, damn the torpedoes. But Trump is the wrong guy to be that Trump, and I just can't be much but frustrated with him.

What a mess this year. I'm in California, so it doesn't matter how I vote (hint: it won't be for Clinton).

Bad Lieutenant said...

Bob, every tick in the polls that your potential vote for Trump represents is the ability to make Hillary spend campaign money and time there that she can't afford. Don't give up.

Francisco D said...

Lots of interesting comments here. I agree with many of them.

Trump is an unpolished debater who let Hillary get under his skin. He seemed too defensive and egotistical. Practiced politicians, like Clinton are better at disguising their true nature. He should have sidestepped some of Hillary and Lester's attacks. He got caught up in his underwear trying to defend himself.

Clinton was well prepared, but incredibly smug. She was clearly winning on style until the laughter. It's a horrible image that I cannot get out of my mind.

walter said...

I feel incredibly reassured hearing Hil characterize our terrific management of Iran.

The Cracker Emcee said...

"Of course he wasn't acting, that IS who Trump is."

You're right. And for a political neophyte it's serving him remarkably well.

Anonymous said...

Trumps's new nickname Schnorty McLowbar.

gadfly said...

All these good comments here and nothing about the hour that Trump spent praising Trump and promising that all the world's problems ever identified and more that he knows even less about will be solved by this carny barker at his podium fronting the Freak Show tent, all dressed up like an orange clown and making absurd faces. Emmett Kelly would be proud of this septuagenarian child.

The duopoly has failed tonight in convincing any thinking voter that an accomplished presidential candidate has been nominated. So you folks are welcome to join the #NeverDuopoly movement that I just invented. We will be supporting the "Feel the Johnson2016" effort. "And the days dwindle down to a precious few, September . . ."

Jon Ericson said...

@unk#55
Whatever they're paying you, it's too much.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

gadfly,

I'm not sure it's super effective to point out pipe dreams, and then concoct your own.

Just sayin'

Roughcoat said...

I didn't watch the debate. What I find interesting is the comments by those who did concerning who won. I'm getting the sense, from reading lots of comments on several blogs, that Hillary won and that Trump failed big-time. I say this as someone who will vote for Trump. Trump needed to win big and he didn't, and that's a big loss. That's the impression I'm getting from the posts.

Bill said...

Very grateful to Jaltcoh. I've put his live blog on my Kindle and will read before bed tonight.

tim in vermont said...

Trumps's new nickname Schnorty McLowbar.

That's pretty funny coming from a supporter of a candidate who was only not indicted by the FBI because they couldn't prove she was actually smart enough to know she was committing crime after crime.

Yancey Ward said...

Well, Tim, I wasn't saying her policies were/will be successful.

The real point is that the electorate wants change- Clinton does not offer that on any dimension. Indeed, I think her only way of actually winning is to make Trump look really foolish. She didn't do that tonight, though I give her an A+ for effort. I wish Trump would have just ignored the attacks and simply stayed on message- that he is what represents change. That is what he does repeatedly on the stump, and tonight would have been the perfect audience for that. A missed opportunity.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

TinV,

I'm not sure it was only because she was a dope. Some of the excuse making was related to some sort of brain injury. So Ha!

traditionalguy said...

Trump is a Queens New York style of gentle man. There were No vulgar metaphors, right.

Yancey Ward said...

Roughcoat,

Wrong, he didn't need to win big, but he actually missed a golden opportunity to actually do so- that is what is frustrating. I think Clinton clearly won on points, but presidential debates aren't college debate competitions- indeed, I think Democrats win these debates almost all the time- only the first Romney-Obama debate did I think the Republican clearly won on points.

I can guarantee the Democrats in the media will proclaim Clinton won in a rout, but she didn't, and the people watching who will decide the election will notice it wasn't a rout. I think people are well past the point where anything the media says matters at all.

BDNYC said...

I couldn't believe Trump and Holt let Hillary get away with grandstanding about cyber security and the dangers of hostile actors stealing American secrets. Am I the only one who was shouting at the TV about her homebrew server?

Jon Ericson said...

I think people are well past the point where anything the media says matters at all.

For this, I most fervently pray.

cubanbob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
hombre said...

All that ground left unplowed. Try this Donald, in response to her cheap shot about your start: "Well I did get a loan from my dad and I did well, but so did Hillary. According to her, she left the WH dead broke in '98. She's had two gov't jobs and now her net worth is $110 million. She's done very well indeed!"

Trump needs to take the gloves off.

Yancey Ward said...

BDNYC,

Well, Trump doesn't need to mention, surely. By this point in time, doesn't the hypocrisy in her statement basically stand on its own? Yes, it would have been better if Trump hadn't let that go, but like I said, I think most people who are truly undecided and were watching tonight already know Clinton's real view of cyber security.

cubanbob said...


33,000 felony counts plus obstruction of justice and violations of the espionage act and Trump couldn't put that out short,sweet and to the point why she is uniquely unqualified to be president?

William said...

I didn't think Trump won any of the Republican debates. Neither did any of the commentators, but he, nonetheless, won the primaries. Most of the talking heads tonight say he lost the debate. That's reassuring. People with such a consistent record of getting it wrong have tremendous powers of predicting the future--if you look at what they're saying through a convex lens......Anyway, this is the first of three debates. Maybe he can develop an ascending narrative and bring on increasingly heavy artillery. He let some slow pitch soft balls pass him by. Maybe in a later debate he can note that people with servers in their bathroom shouldn't preach about cybersecurity.....Anyway, Hillary didn't have a grand mal seizure, and Trump didn't use any four letter words so they each in their own way behaved with restraint.

mockturtle said...

Another grave omission by Trump: When the issue of domestic security arose, he could have pounced on the policy of taking in Middle Eastern immigrants and how poorly they are vetted.

Yancey Ward said...

And I will defend Holt- the only really bad thing he did tonight was lose track of the time. He mostly let them do their own work. Clinton did seem to look to him for help on several occasions, but he never really gave it to her.

walter said...

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...are there any words that satisfactorily describe his law and order "plans" from the convention?
--
Taking out the DOJ trash and promoting full enforcement of existing law would be a good start.

Jon Ericson said...

Hmm.
peanut morphing before our eyes,
from a troll to a moby.

Roughcoat said...

Yancey Ward:

What I meant when I said "Trump needed to win big and he didn't, and that's a big loss" is: that's my impression of what people are saying about the debate. I don't know if that's really the case.

Rhythm and Balls said...

Trump needs to take the gloves off.

No. He's embarrassed about his tiny hands. What he needs to do is to take his pants off. It would be just as vulgar as a guy like him is willing to go. Plus, it would help put to rest his claim that, "There's no problem," (down there).

Other than that, nice advice on winning the debates based on your zingers alone. Hillary Clinton, government, wealth, blah blah blah. Really funny. Hardee, har har.

Don't quit your day job. Retirement isn't your cue to start a second career in comedy, lawyer guy.

Yancey Ward said...

Well, Roughcoat- he didn't need to win big, and he actually didn't need to "win" at all- he just had to keep from looking foolish. He accomplished that. I went around to a few of the online debate polls, and he is ahead on everyone I saw, several of which I actually would have expected the readership to lean heavily towards the Democrats. Whatever else you can say about tonight, his online support is far more enthusiastic than Clinton's.

Bob said...

Bad Lieutentant said,

"Bob, every tick in the polls that your potential vote for Trump represents is the ability to make Hillary spend campaign money and time there that she can't afford. Don't give up."

I'm sorry, but this is just lame. Hillary doesn't have to spend a dime in California. She has our electoral votes so tightly locked up she can't even be charged with false imprisonment.

walter said...

In fact, given Trump's executive management background and his claiming to effect different areas from day 1, I would love to see him select and announce cabinet members to the voters. He's alluded to having "the best". Get them on-board and helping in the campaign. Stop the pretense it's all about one person.

Jon Ericson said...

Moby Dick

Andrew Pardue said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Boxty said...

Lester Crowely: Mrs. Clinton, you have two minutes to bash Trump.
Lester Crowley: Mr. Trump, you have 30 seconds to respond.

The camera framed Clinton's shoulders, making her look good. The camera cut off Trump's shoulders making him look scrunched up. Maybe it was intentional to make it harder to focus on her eyes.

eric said...

I predict Clinton will gain in some of the polls off of this first debate.

This will be because they will weight the polls following the belief that Clinton won and she must rise in the polls.

How can I know if I'm right?

Can't. Because they don't give us the raw data to compare to their weighting.

I wonder why that is.

Bad Lieutenant said...


I'm sorry, but this is just lame.

Au contraire, Bob, she is vulnerable to making this kind of mistake. She's spending all kinds of money in places where you'd think she doesn't have to. She's spending money in New York. (Now I have a theory that Trump has a chance to do well in New York because he's a native son and his style will play there better, but nonetheless, if New York is getting her attention, why not California?) I know there are millions of Californians dying to be freed from this horrible menace, and she really can't slack off in my opinion. Even if she blows 5 million on some attack ads that she didn't need to, that's five million that can't be spent in Pennsylvania.

coupe said...

BDNYC said...I couldn't believe Trump and Holt let Hillary get away with grandstanding about cyber security and the dangers of hostile actors stealing American secrets. Am I the only one who was shouting at the TV about her homebrew server?

hee...

He also missed the big opening when she said she's stood before Congress for hours and days.

Yea, because of alleged criminal wrong.

Trump could have got a big payday, but he let it slide. He choked...

walter said...

Even in states that are "lost" to a candidate, the degree of loss does not go unnoticed later.

walter said...

coupe said...He also missed the big opening when she said she's stood before Congress for hours and days.
--
Yep..could have said something like "Well..there are a lot of questions about you."

Mary Beth said...

There are several online polls asking who viewers thought won the debate (Drudge, NJ.com, Las Vegas Sun, Time.com, Fortune.com, CNBC) and all show Trump ahead. Clinton was originally leading on CNBC but isn't the last I looked.

I don't know if it means people think Trump did better or if Clinton's supporters don't know how to internet as well.

Bad Lieutenant said...

He was very much pulling his punches and I think it was deliberate. He wanted to look sober and reasonable. I think he accomplished that.

The big dig on Trump is that he's insane and out of control. In this debate he disproved that. I think it will give a lot of people who have been nervous cover to talk about him like a human being.

He wasn't going to drive her out of the race tonight. Get that through your heads. What, you think she was going to break out in shame hives and confess her sins? No, give credit where credit is due, she's a weeble. Weebles may wobble but they don't fall down.

She's not going to quit. You're not going to beat her with some kind of linguistic kill shot. You're going to beat her by getting more votes than she does. Trump looking acceptable helped him get more votes and takes away people voting for her because he's unacceptable.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Also I didn't notice, did anyone see any of these quote-unquote celebrity guests in the front row or anywhere in the audience? I do understand that Robert Cook's candidate was escorted from the building, but I don't know if Mark Cuban or any of Clinton's former shall I say conquests were present.

walter said...

I'll be working in Waukesha with..uh..some media Thursday. Wonder if the "Trump that bitch!" shirts will be there or if the "debate" will create some new merch.

walter said...

By the way..
It's high time.
She wants it.

chickelit said...

@jelly: re the Hillary open mouth yaw, it's up up at Drudge now. You can almost see the lozenge hole.

Alex said...

Wow, I'm shocked R&B thinks Hitlery demolished Drumpf!

Alex said...

Let me take you down
coz I'm going to
Strawberry Fields
nothing is real
and nothing to get hung about
strawberry fields forever

walter said...

Just hearing Trump re-framing nukes as a larger issue than "global warming".
Lester...jumping in thereafter..

I know they're not supposed to drink..but Iranian leadership must be pounding them when hearing Hil...maybe throwing a gay off a roof for fun.

walter said...

(Kerry strikes a long face)

walter said...

Hil talking about women who "have a name"..
What? Bimbo?
Oy..

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

Yupper, that's a big yapper.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

Huffpo is pushing the idea that even Stormfront says HRC won. Odd that they couldn't see a downside to hyping that.

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/even-stormfront-thinks-hillary-clinton-won-the-debate-1787121521

OTOH, the Sfront's banter still make it clear that they love the Donald.

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

Folks looking for DJT inspiration from debate are in luck:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/a-very-against-police-judge?utm_term=.dv3AekoE9#.tf3GAzbMl

Jon Ericson said...

Hi #55!

Achilles said...

Strange that people are so tied up with who " won" when that doesn't matter at all. Trump didn't "win" any of the primary debates either. I don't see the campaign ending gaffe being vined all over the web so in 2 days this debate will be forgotten. They got a few people to watch for 30 minutes then everyone went back to the game or some movie.

These debates are much ado about nothing unless someone loses. Neither did that so the campaign will maintain its current trajectory.

The Friday FBI document dump is going to be more important in the long run. We learned that Obama broke the law every time he emailed Hillary on her private server and he knew about it from the start. This meant that the "investigation" was a sham from the start and that the FBI is a functioning arm of the democrat party. The FBI has joined the IRS as weapons against democrat opponents.

Jon Ericson said...

Chicks with bangs.
1964.
mmm.

Amexpat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jon Ericson said...

Speaking with members of his staff in private Monday after receiving the most recent municipal crime statistics, Chicago mayor Rahm Emanuel is said to have expressed his concern that the metropolitan area’s gun violence problem might soon spread to the parts of the city he actually gives a shit about, sources reported.

“Listen, we’re at 3,000 shootings this year and counting—it’s only a matter of time before this violence migrates from the areas of the city I don’t give a fuck about into the areas that actually matter in my eyes,” the second-term mayor reportedly said, adding that it would be devastating to see such senseless shootings affect residents outside of the large swaths of Chicago he has written off entirely. “If we don’t do something soon to keep guns off the streets of those particular neighborhoods that I consider worthwhile, things could really spiral out of control. Enough is enough when it comes to the parts of this city that I choose to serve.”

At press time, Emanuel was breathing a sigh of relief after learning that six Chicagoans killed overnight were shot dead in neighborhoods he couldn’t care less about.

Amexpat said...

Rhythm and Balls, the Drunk Trump link was very funny and well done. I'm not a Trump fan, but I think he did OK in the debate and it won't hurt him.

rcommal said...

First and foremost, this was an event, and I am looking at it from the point of view that "this is an event"--as, for the record, I do think both campaigns were, and have been, so viewing this event and therefore making various choices w/r/t the leadup. On that basis, the most important thing with regard to Monday night's debate event, is to consider the audience that each wanted to reach, and by "audience" I mean those people--who ever, what ever, they are--whom each candidate most wanted to galvanize.

On that basis, it's my view--based not on what I might feel or think at any given moment, but instead based, far more important, on other skills of mine--that Trump won this one.

Remember that, as noted above, I'm viewing this as an event in which each participant-candidate needed to reach certain audiences, and not just reach those audiences but also to galvanize individuals within the respective audiences to *do* something. This was the critical goal. Again, on that basis, it's my view that Trump likely did that and that Clinton probably did not.

One more time: I'm viewing this as an event, and what I wrote above is based on that notion (which notion I do think both campaigns shared) of last evening's program.

---

rcommal said...

Now, if anyone wants to talk about ...

oh, never mind.

---

Jon Ericson said...

Yeah, I think the answer is blowin' in the wind.

Jon Ericson said...

Remember Model U.N.?

Jon Ericson said...

Tell us a story about Model U.N.!

Jon Ericson said...

Help! Help! I'm bein' repressed!

Jon Ericson said...

so sad

Jon Ericson said...

re or o, your call.
"it's interesting"

Jon Ericson said...

Bang, bang, Wake up Polly!

rcommal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
rcommal said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_jWHffIx5E

Jon Ericson said...

Yeah, only shooting stars break the mo-old

rcommal said...

@Jon Ericson

So sorry that you got destroyed by participating in that whole model U.N. thing. By being forced to participate in such a thing.

Here's why I'm sorry for you:

That never happened to me.

Jon Ericson said...

"Mister Psychoanalyst"

Jon Ericson said...

My only brush with the Model U.N., was when my bandmate, Buzz, got us into the hotel where his cousin (a delegate) was staying.
My mom gave me holy hell when I finally got home. (It was worth it.)

MayBee said...

I never want to see Hillary do that shoulder shake thing again.

rcommal said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsdy_rct6uo

Jon Ericson said...

Snappy tune
Snappy lyrics.

MayBee said...

Things we didn't need to talk about: Trump's feelings about beauty contestants, Trump's opinion on the Iraq war in 2003, Trump's birtherism.

Things we really needed to talk about: Syria and the rest of the ME, ISIS, skyrocketing health insurance premiums, the deteriorating relationship with Russia.

MayBee said...

The "Presidential Look" question at the end was just a stupid question. I really like Lester Holt, but if we are supposed to take away from the debate that this isn't "Reality TV', that was a "reality tv" question.

There's so much going on in this world, and the two candidates have so many problems. Some of the questions, and especially that one, were just garbage.

MayBee said...

I'm with Althouse that it was just distressing.

Everything about it - our candidates, our news media- was distressing.

Jon Ericson said...

Here's a cheerful wake-up song!

damikesc said...

That's pretty funny coming from a supporter of a candidate who was only not indicted by the FBI because they couldn't prove she was actually smart enough to know she was committing crime after crime.

Given that he gave immunity to everybody not named Clinton (and I half-expect we'll learn she got an immunity deal also), Comey had no intention of even potential prosecution.

Jon Ericson said...

Any news of more "Psycho Killers"?
Or are we "absorbing" it?

carrie said...

If Hillary hadn't disrespectfully called Trump "Donald" the whole time I would have said that she won the debate. At least Trump put in an hour of calling her "Secretary Clinton".

machine said...

the palinization of the gop has produced the man-child candidate.

an ill-informed rude bully who was born on third base and acts like he hit a triple.

Matthew Sablan said...

"the palinization of the gop has produced the man-child candidate."

-- You realize "Palinization" refers to the process by which the opposing party turns someone into a caricature, right? Palin was a successful governor with fairly normal policy positions who made a few gaffes that were then sexistly used to make her out as a "Caribou Barbie" by the left.

machine said...

nope...it is the selection of ill-prepared candidates chosen for their appeal to a base that favors style over substance...as long as they deliver zingers!

lemondog said...

....and there was no flagging of energy.

Clinton look-a-like hand puppet?

gerry said...

Well done.

CNN wonks voted predictably wonkish. But Trump displayed what he needed to show to win. And the wonks just don't understand what is going on in the electorate.

Don Surber explains: I watched the post-debate pundits and they all said she won. How? I know why they think that. They like the policy wonk stuff. Never mind that the policy wonk was a walking disaster on foreign policy as a senator, and even worse as secretary of State. The press in Washington is convinced that policy wonks are always right because well, they "know" policy, right?

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