This was on CNN's "State of the Union" this morning. (The topic is the extradition of Fethullah Gulen.) Watch closely:
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106 comments:
No, I think he is trying to hide the fact that Erdogan is demanding the imam be sent to his death, but Kerry would probably not know if he was lying. It is his nature.
Imagine all the torture and murder that is going on over there right now.
What Michael said. Given Obama's previous record with Erdogan, I suspect we're about ready to roll over and send this guy to meet Allah in some Turkish prison yard.
PS: Same thing is going to happen to the Turkish Army Colonel who fled to Greece. He is almost certainly guilty of at least failing to succeed.
And/the
Erdogan is everything Obama aspires to be. The US will fold like a cheap suit and send this guy to his demise.
Is James Taylor available?
What lying, Professor? He said very little and it all sounds like boilerplate but if he is 'lying' then what is the 'truth'?
No fan of Kerry, heavens no, but I'm not sure what you're driving at here.
Kerry never lies or even talks. He poses as a smart and admirable person for everything. Language is incidental.
What's wrong with his faaace?
I'm sure it's true that we didn't help with the coup. Why would Obama oppose an Islamofascist? He never has before.
Interesting to know if plotters had any traffic with us, and if we betrayed them. That's more Obama's speed.
Is it lying if you don't know what you're talking about, but you say stuff anyway?
@The Drill SGT/
"...I suspect we're about ready to roll over..."
The Obama Administration with its stellar track record in defense of this nations interests?? How DARE you even deign to suggest such a thing! Are you ever a suspicious type! We're talking about an Administration with a track record of steely-eyed defense of Americas interests--Just ask the Russians or the PRC...we're all Barry Goldwater types here in the land of the USA, right? Oh yea of little faith!
Lying about what? American non-involvement in the coup attempt? Surely he isn't lying about how extradition works in this country.
So, was this "coup" a pure false-flag op put into motion by agents provocateur working for Erdogan, or is he just one lucky SoB? It seems to have been completed half-arsed.
Extradiction is speaking to outsiders.
I don't see any lies here.
"Not harboring anybody" Harboring is something you do with fugitives and the like.
"We're not preventing anything from happening" ...perhaps even more honest than Kerry wanted to be
"we've never had a formal request for extradition" almost certainly true
[give us the evidence for extradition to meet legal standards in our courts] absolutely true
"we're waiting for that, they say they're putting it together and sending it to us" almost certainly true
"but it's irresponsible to have accusations of American involvement" absolutely true
The proper question to ask when any government official or spokesperson or senator or congressperson is interviewed is:
Is this person telling the truth?"
Brought to you by ketchup.
I think it is important, for those who want to know more, to read Edward Luttwak's article today.
He is not always right but this sounds probable.
Televised scenes of the crowds that came out to oppose the coup were extremely revealing: There were only men with mustaches (secular Turks rigorously avoid them) with not one woman in sight. Moreover, their slogans were not patriotic, but Islamic — they kept shouting “Allahu ekber” (the local pronunciation of “akbar”) and breaking out into the Shahada, the declaration of faith.
Yes and I saw one soldier who surrendered to the crowd beheaded,. I've been on that bridge.
Why the long face, Secretary Kerry?
Blogger Patrick "What's wrong with his faaace?"
I thought the same--he has had more Botox injections than a race horse has had butte shots. Watch it again--no forehead movement, no movement around his nose. Creepy.
Meeeea said...
Blogger Patrick "What's wrong with his faaace?"
I thought it was a Harry Plinkett reference.
I am Laslo.
Whether Kerry is lying or not is immaterial.
Sigh. I wish Turkey well, but it seems that the "coup" attempt was by the good guys, and the democratic supporters are the Islamofascists. Turkey has a tradition, actually enshrined in their constitution, that the Army will protect secular rights by intervening and getting rid of the government if necessary. This isn't the first time they've done it. It would be the first time they've failed.
I thought it was more "get me out of here" than anything else.
No torture. No sodomy. Only a few abortions. And Obama did not overtly or covertly back it. Of course the coup failed. They didn't have the right social justice angle.
From what I've read, he's telling the truth.
Turkey has been "working on" a formal extradition request for the past few months, and has yet to file it.
Looking at poll results, btw in-house political polls are truly a waste of time, I may have to revise my calculation er there has been an influx of libs here recently.
Said revision: Changing 95/5 con majority to 90/10 con majority!
Not to worry Althouse cons as you're still "cock of the walk" or a reasonable facsimile thereof.
coupe said...
He's responding to a radical Islamic terrorist, and saying "f-ck you".
Sorry,
Given our total belief in unbelievable fables on Iran's Nuclear plans, I read it the other way.
1. Torture some soldiers
2. Give us their statements supporting the involvement of this troublesome cleric, and an indictment
3. And we'll pack his ass off to Ankara
4. After all, we're all on the side of Democracy and the rule of law...
After all, Erdoğan once remarked that for him democracy was like a bus ride, once he gets to his stop he will get off.
PS: In theory Erdogan is not the head of Turkey's government. His AKP party failed to ram the needed laws through to make him ruler for life. He is the "President". The Titular Head of State in a parliamentary democracy that makes the PM the head of government. Like Putin, he installed a minion as the PM and rules through him.
I didn't think Kerry was lying.
However, the United States should not make its citizens accountable to foreign governments. The First Amendment must protect pure speech, whether the speakers are communists (1950s), the Black Panthers (1960s), the Klan in Skokie (1970s), the Sandinista supporters (1980s supporter Bill DiBlasio) or anti-Islamists (presently).
Kerry should have answered that question with assurances that Americans deserve the full panoply of Rights including both Substantive and Procedural Due Process. And also an assurance that people in the U.S. are not subject to foreign laws.
His lips are moving.....so, yes.
Birkel said...
He's not a U.S. citizen. He is a Turkish citizen in exile.
Turkey is Putin's problem.. We have no interests there.
When I first saw Kerry's face on the front page, I thought he might be talking about sending Simon and Garfunkel over to France to sing "Bridge Over Troubled Water" to French leaders. Clearly, James Taylor and "You've Got a Friend" wasn't enough. It's time to get really serious about terrorism.
"Turkey is Putin's problem.. We have no interests there." We do. We should be supporting secularists against those who are in favor of radical Islam and Sharia law, anywhere in the world. Just as we supported anyone anywhere against the Soviet Union, and for the same reason.
Unfortunately, the leadership of the entire Western world doesn't seem to see it that way, and is repeating the mistake they have made over and over in the Middle East: support the more popular side, even if that side will end up supporting our deadly enemies.
Birkel said...
However, the United States should not make its citizens accountable to foreign governments.
The cleric in question, Fethullah Gulen, is a Turkish citizen living in the US, since 1999.
He is either a green card holder (LPR) or a "refugee". An LPR is a "US Person" and generally has most of the same Constitutional rights as a citizen.
MikeR said...
"Turkey is Putin's problem.. We have no interests there." We do.
and they are a NATO member, so if Putin decides to fix his Turkish problem with tanks, we have a problem...
That poll is missing the All Important:
O Served in Vietnam.
Not lying. They will hand this sucker over if it meets their interests.
If they do, the case should finish all appeals about year 2020.
"if Putin decides to fix his Turkish problem with tanks, we have a problem..."
So does Putin. The Turks are no pushover. It's a big country. Meanwhile Russia loses its access to the Med.
Long-term, legal residents enjoy the same rights as U.S. citizens. So while I appreciate the friendly corrections, my point stands.
Kerry should be a more serious defender of U.S. laws.
"Turkey is Putin's problem.. We have no interests there."
Interesting that you commented on something about which you are clueless. We have no interests in Turkey? Tell that to the US servicemen stationed there. It's only 90 or so miles from Incirlik AFB to ISIS territory, so at the very least Turkey permits us to use their valuable air rights and to save on fuel.
And don't forget about Turkey's economic importance as a geographic choke point.
You forgot the box labeled "Of course he's lying, his lips are moving"
"so if Putin decides to fix his Turkish problem with tanks, we have a problem..."
We can always impose the Czech solution from 1937. And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's what the wizards of NATO did.
OT: The big lie.
CNN helps Hillary with the big lie.
Can't tell about the lying part, other than the "tell" that it is John Kerry and his lips were moving.
Did seem, to my unpracticed eye, that he had had a stroke. Movements of the mouth seemed not symmetrical. Could be optical effect, as his face was usually turned left to semi-profile. His eyes were straight into the camera, which was square to the torso.
Turkey is going radical Islamist, with Erdogan riding the front seat of their rollercoaster to hell as certainly as did the Shah in Iran. Erdogan is the only person who refuses to understand that his role is exactly the same as that of the Shah.
He has eviscerated the military's prior constitutional role in keeping Turkey a secular democratic state, and now he is ready to reprise the Shah's weak attempts to keep a burgeoning radical Islamic movement in check.
I predict he will fall to revolution led by Imams in the middle of Hillary's first term, or sooner.
Then we will see what NATO does with a real coup in a member country. I suspect immediate retreat out of Turkey will be Hillary's only option, leaving all armaments behind as in Iran.
"An LPR is a 'US Person' and generally has most of the same Constitutional rights as a citizen."
ALL Non-US citizens living under the authority of the US are covered by the same Constitutional due process guarantees as US citizens. But, just as many US citizens are finding, the "guarantees" are not always guaranteed.
I don't believe Fethullah Gulen is going anywhere.
New Ties Emerge Between Clinton And Mysterious Islamic Cleric
There's the rabbit hole.
Take a little trip if you'd like.
No extradition. Gulen is friend of the Clinton Foundation and in particular has links to Huma Abedin
I never considered that politicians may choose botox so that no one knows when they're lying. His tells, whatever they may be, hide under the mask that is now his face.
Robert Cook said...
"An LPR is a 'US Person' and generally has most of the same Constitutional rights as a citizen."
ALL Non-US citizens living under the authority of the US are covered by the same Constitutional due process guarantees as US citizens.
Yeah, sort of. I said "generally". In my basic statement, I was thinking of office holding and voting which clearly they don't get. plus
In the area of due process, it is a bit murky in that LPR's found to have lied in the immigration process, presented forged documents or otherwise committed criminal acts have some judicial rights, but can be declared unwelcome and shipped home. Unlike national born citizens. and LPR status must be reviewed and renewed every 10 years.
natural
Unless he commits a crime on Turkish soil, a Turkish request for extradition should have no standing in the US. If the US concocts a reason to sent him to Turkey, then watch out any US citizen who runs afoul of a foreign country's laws.
Lies? When does he really say the truth strait out? He has been a faker and liar since before Vietnam (where he lied his way out of Vietnam... and threw his fake medals over the fence in protest.)
Gulen and Erdoğan were allies, at least publicly, until 2013. That’s when Erdoğan, who was prime minister at the time, broke with the cleric and blamed him for orchestrating corruption investigations targeting him and his allies.
Shortly after Erdoğan was elected president in 2014, he reportedly asked President Obama to extradite Gulen. Followers of the cleric and his movement, called Hizmet, fill out many of Turkey’s institutions, including the media, judiciary and police force
Erdogan is an Islamofascist. Obama always does what Islamofascists want. I'm sorry Mr. Gulen, but you need to say goodbye to your family and make your peace with God.
Turkey is Putin's problem. We have no interests there.
The United States has maintained a naval presence in the Mediterranean and a quite large and active embassy in Istanbul - now in Ankara - since Thomas Jefferson's time.
I was watching for eye-accessing cues, but his eyes didn't appear to move at all. Can you Botox the extrinsic eye muscles to keep from giving anything away?
I read people for a living. I did not see any body language[I would like to have seen his entire body, however] that says lying. Chrissake, there are many great clips of politicians lying on a daily basis. WTF made you pick this. Are you autistic?
Kerry has no need to lie here. If Turkey sends the US the normal extradition request, State will process it through. Up to a point, it's rubber-stamp stuff.
BUT Gulen has the right to file for habeas corpus in a US district court, and expect a judge dealing with this would use the "enhanced" standard, especially given the purge of judges in Turkey.
Kerry wants to be in the position of not expressing official US government opposition, but leaving the matter in the courts.
I also do not understand what Kerry is supposed to be lying about here.
But I do think Mr. Gulen would be well advised to engage a competent lawfirm if he does not already have one.
We getting a post on Baton Rouge so we can discuss the left destroying our society or are we going to continue discussing a trained liar lying?
Priorities.
There is, btw, no reason to believe that Erdogan wants Gulen extradited at all. It would be rather unfortunate for him if that were to happen.
The Gulen thing has been going on for years, but only in Erdogan rhetoric whenever things get hot. It is a tactic he has used before with foreign leaders to great effect.
I think Erdogan would much prefer that Gulen stays in the Americas, and especially in the US.
No, he did not lie.
Somebody please quote what words you think were lies.
Tap, tap, tap.
Is this thing on?
Russia would be mad to attack Turkey. They dont have the logistics through the Caucasus - they would need to obtain transit and basing rights in Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia - to sustain an army large enough to fight the Turks, who do have an enormous army. There is a smallish base in Armenia, but it would have to be greatly expanded, and transit rights established. And a buildup would be hard to hide. If you hear of Putin leaning on Georgia, that would be a signal that something is up.
The Turks are in the best position of anyone in Nato to fight off the Russians. And a Russian attack would be the most effective way to unite the Turks, probably including many of the Kurds, behind an Islamic front.
But he does it so well.
I watched it first without the sound. Mid-way through the frequency of eye blinking increased, so I think he's lying.
And he's tall with craggy good looks, and the hair, oh the hair.
I enjoyed the order of your tags, Professor. I, too, regard Kerry as a lying sack of shit and a turkey.
He is definitively lying about Iraq having weapons of...oh wait, that was Bush/Cheney/Rice etc....
Lying? About what? I suppose to be certain, we would have to examine the specific terms of the US-Turkey extradition treaty. European countries routinely refuse to extradite any shitbag who would face the death penalty in the US, and there may be something similar here.
Gulen, by the way, would be no loss. He is a scam artist and Muslim subversive. He would be an ornament to any Turkish prison.
He's not lying, but he is giving the intelligent-sounding Mumbo-Jumbo about extradiction proceedings that masks what Obama will do.
If Obama thinks it's in his political self-interest to not extradict the Turkish Iman, then he will cite all the rules and regs.
If Obama thinks it's in his political self-interest to extradict the Turkish Iman, then he will magically find various waivers of the rules and regs, and make it happen.
That's why complicated laws are so pernicious. The are malleable to bend towards desired ends of powerful political forces.
Under it all he's upset that he keeps getting distracted from the terrible security threat of Global Warming/Climate Change/Stasis...by radical global schawarma-ing.
I just assume all politicians and government officials lie, especially Democrats. It's just their nature. Still, there are times such as wartime when lying as the French say "for reasons of State" can be acceptable then there is John Kerry Winter Soldier-Christmas In Cambodia lying that are for pure personal aggrandizement. That is usually more common among Democrats.
I'm sure we didn't help with the coup attempt. But I'm even more sure that we didn't even know a coup was in the works until it was underway.
Can you spell feckless? I can.
"CNN helps Hillary with the big lie."
Indeed. This deserves much more attention than it is getting (at Althouse, at least), so here's an excerpt:
"Hillary Clinton will pledge on Saturday to introduce an amendment to the Constitution to overturn the Supreme Court’s Citizen United decision within the first 30 days of her administration, an aide said Saturday."
Whatever idiotic thing Trump has said with regard to libel laws absolutely pales in comparison to Team Blue's thirst to gut the First Amendment.
Regardless of any of Clintons other misdeeds or incompetencies, legion though they may be, this issue all by itself makes her irredeemable.
I feel pretty certain that Kerry was being careful -- "scripted", I'd call it -- trying not to lie, but certainly not being forthcoming.
Now, I have a different but similar question: When Trump announced his pick of Mike Pence, and said Pence was his "first choice." Does anyone believe Trump on that? I don't. Trump, for all of his other rhetorical failings, gets credit for one thing; I don't think Trump is a good liar. Not like the Clintons. The Clintons are world-class liars. Obama has a certain skill in overriding the truth. (I mean that in the least-complimentary way possible.)
Trump is a crummy liar. I think he was lying when he said that Pence was his first choice. Being "a crummy liar" is not exactly an insult to Trump, is it?
Oh, I forgot to include a link to the video of Trump lying (I think) about his "first choice" Mike Pence:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/07/16/trump_mike_pence_was_my_first_choice_for_vice_president.html
traditionalguy said...
Turkey is Putin's problem.. We have no interests there
*************
Yeah, no interests there.
Turkey a NATO member? So what?
A major airbase there that we use to wage war against ISIS and other jihadis? Pffft.
Snork!
"New Ties Emerge Between Clinton And Mysterious Islamic Cleric"
Wouldn't it be.....fascinating...if Hillary set off yet another disastrous coup attempt (like the one she managed to eff up in Libya)?
OMG...I can't believe it! GOP Establishment lackey and lifelong Republican Chuckles is on another thread critical of a Democrat attacking the Republican nominee for president...who would have thunk it?
Moby.
Chuck, assuming that it is not true, perhaps Trump is being gracious.
Yes, yes, we're aware that you don't know that word, you lout.
Why are we even talking about Kerry? Did he say anything worth analyzing? I'm presuming the issue is that Erdowan wants him extradited for a sham political trial and kangaroo court in order to make a display of things and that we disagreed, as we should. Did I miss anything? Fuck Erdowan.
Like others here, I don't get your point, Ann. Kerry is saying we are not involved. I doubt we are so not lying there. (Unless we really are involved)
He is saying that once we get a formal request for extradition of Gulen, we will review it and take appropriate action. Seems like a reasonable response. Appropriate action might be to say "no way in Hell" and they may have already decided that, but I don't think his statement is a lie.
So what do you think he is lying about?
John Henry
Gahrie:
You say "GOP establishment lackey" like that was a bad thing.
Chuck, I think you're misspelling your name. It should be Buck.
As in, Buck buck buck...
Chicken.
You say "GOP establishment lackey" like that was a bad thing.
Yet another explanation for Trump if Chuckles really is who he says he is.
Turkey is not our problem but Gulen may be. I am in the air about how much of a problem. He is most emphatically NOT just a cleric living in the Poconos. Among other things, there are 150 or so charter schools (K-12) associated with Gulen. The exact linkage is murky. He denies any, there is definitely some.
A lot of the teachers and staff are Turks brought in on H1B visas because no teachers are available. A lot of the teachers are not certified and a lot of them speak little English. There seems to be some indoctrination going on but how much is unclear.
He is involved in a lot of other things. One of them is infiltrating supporters into the Turkish government. (Maybe)
Has oodles of money.
Should we be concerned about him as a viper in our midst? I don't know.
Claire Berlinski is a pretty good writer, lived in Turkey for a number of years and speaks Turkish. This article from 2012 gives a pretty good look at Gulen and his activities in Turkey and the US.
Not sure if she was still living in Turkey in 2012. According to Wikipedia she is living there now, had lived there before but moved to Paris for a while when her mother was dying.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-fethullah-g%C3%BClen-13504.html
John Henry
Kerry is one of the most contemptible politicians in this country, and that's saying something.
I voted that he's telling the truth, agreeing with this commenter
We don't have enough control statements from Kerry, were we know he is telling the truth for comparison... other than "I was for it, before I was against it."
Blogger Chuck said...Oh, I forgot to include a link to the video of Trump lying (I think) about his "first choice" Mike Pence:
Chuck, you clearly don't understand what a choice is. Pence is the first person he chose. Maybe Pence wasn't the first preference, but he clearly was the first choice.
Chuck, our lifelong Republican, needs to up his game.
I feel for him... He is in the unenviable position of speaking for a boss he doesn't know and cannot trust.
I think this is one of those situations in which direct truthfulness is likely to yield more harm than good. Firstly, it is beginning to look like Erdogan may have used agent provocateurs to launch this coup in order to purge the Turkish army of secularist officers, and to decapitate the judicial system, perhaps to remove barriers to the introduction of sharia into Turkey's western-style secular law code, something Erdogan has hinted at in his speeches before Islamist-leaning congregations. There's much about this "coup attempt" that smells fishy. Secondly, Gülen has been portrayed in the press as a "liberal Muslim" (perhaps he is a Sufi mystic) who fled to the US in fear of being railroaded into prison by Erdogan in retaliation for his public stance against corruption in Erdogan's administration. By obfuscating Kerry is stalling for time, unfortunately he's not good at. Kerry is not much good at anything but droning on in a sonorous manner while saying nothing of importance. He might have made a good insurance salesman, but as our chief diplomat he's a dude. Kerry is better in the office than HRC was, but that's nothing much to be proud of.
Erdogan is pushing too damned hard for the extradition of Gülen. His spokesmen sound positively hysterical on the subject, which also smells fishy. Unfortunately Obama — our brilliant, smartest man in the room, best POTUS evah! — has put himself (AND US!) in a position of being blackmailed into cooperation with forces which evidently intend to put Islamism in charge in Turkey. Our neo-Nero has been fiddling for eight years while Rome has smoldered. It's about to burst into flames.
Typo alert: He might have made a good insurance salesman, but as our chief diplomat he's a dude.
Should read: He might have made a good insurance salesman, but as our chief diplomat he's a dud.
Thank you, Apple Safari.
I didn't quite like the choices, but
"I see a straightforwardly honest man"
is actually closer ro the truth than:
"He seems reasonably honest for a person in his position."
Kerry is not so honest, but he's being honest here, except for treating the Tukish request very formally, when he thinks the probability that the accusation is true is virtually nil.
Danno said...
Blogger Chuck said...Oh, I forgot to include a link to the video of Trump lying (I think) about his "first choice" Mike Pence:
Chuck, you clearly don't understand what a choice is. Pence is the first person he chose. Maybe Pence wasn't the first preference, but he clearly was the first choice.
Chuck, our lifelong Republican, needs to up his game.
Maybe, Mike Pence was the only Republican who didn't phone in his rejection of the offer in time. Pence might have been at the very top of Trump's list of Republicans Who Haven't Told Me 'No Effing Way.'
Quaestor that is an interesting theory although how he managed to get the officers involved to do it without succeeding is a bit difficult to follow. All the same if memory serve me right wasn't Erdogan PM when the 4th ID was denied going through Turkey during the Iraq invasion? If so, then we should offer the Turks a swap, Gulen for Erdogan. They get to hang Gulen and we get to hang Erdogan.
Chuck for once you might be right. Pence may have been the only conventional Republican politician who would risk his career (as per Republican conventional theory)by running with Trump. Now if Trump wins a lot of Republican politicians are going to come out saying they were for Trump all along.
More interesting is who is Hillary going to pick? Someone as left as Bernie (to keep defections to the Green Party down and to gin up the base vote) or someone who isn't perceived as a neo-communist and who is not perceived as corrupt?
I don't know who is bad or good at this point as far as Turkey is concerned. Who is pulling the strings for all of this madness in the middle east. Is it as it appears or is there more...I have been reading too many conspiracy theory articles lately.
"Is Kerry lying?"
Are his lips moving?
cubanbob wrote: ... that is an interesting theory although how he managed to get the officers involved to do it without succeeding is a bit difficult to follow.
The machinations of such conspiracies are difficult to follow by design.
Check out the history of tsarist Russia, particularly an internal security organization known as the Department for Protecting the Public Security and Order, or Okhrana for short. The Okhrana ran a network of spies whose working style classified them as agents provocateurs. These police agents actually engaged in anti-tsarist propaganda and planned (and even carried out) assassinations of leading nobles and ministers. Their aim was to enlist aid and support from people who might find the idea of revolutionary action attractive, then, when the time was ripe, the uniformed police would raid a meeting of the revolutionary cell and arrest everyone. The agent provocateur would mysteriously escape or be arrested to continue his spying from inside the jail. Sometimes, instead of the uniformed police, a group called the Black Hundreds, would ride in and kill everybody identified by the agent provocateur as being sympathetic to his propaganda. The Tsars kept a lid on revolution in Russia for decades through the machinations of these police spies. When revolution did break out in 1905 the names collected by the agents provocateurs allowed the Okhrana and the Black Hundreds to exile or kill tens of thousands of socialists and anarchists. Only a few escaped to trouble the House of Romanov again, among them were Alexander Karensky, Lev Bronstein aka Leon Trotsky, and Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov aka Nicolai Lenin.
Possibly he is just too stupid to know what he is talking about. I am giving him the Hillary excuse.
More interesting is who is Hillary going to pick?
Dennis Miller said it would be Bernie. Bernie Madoff, that is. Strangely appropriate, no?
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