Former FBI agent-turned lawyer Stuart Kaplan says... "If in fact a sympathizer gets ahold of this list and is readily able to identify you as being his neighbor and, then, decides (because they're a sympathizer) to go out and do something horrific to you, there is no way to calculate the potential or to prevent that."...How could the list have been "released" and yet not "made public"? I guess the U.S. authorities haven't independently made the list known, but that the "pro-Isis group" has put the list out there. It's a terrorist tactic just to make people think there is a list and they could be on it. Being on a list is terrifying even if nothing is ever done to you. It's a terrorist tactic to let people know that lists are being made and you could end up on it. If you knew what you were supposed to do to stay off the list, you might do it. You might completely on your own try to imagine what you could do to stay off the list. Keep a low profile. Don't talk about terrorism. Withdraw from social media. Delete your account.
The list has not yet been made public.
June 13, 2016
"A pro-Isis group has released a hit list with the names of more than 8,000 people, mostly Americans."
"More than 600-people live in Florida, and one security expert believes that many of those targeted live in Palm Beach County and on the Treasure Coast."
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124 comments:
Is Ken Burns on the list?
I'm making a list.
But, no, slowing the tide of Muslims into this country is a step too far. Best to let people serve as sitting ducks...
"It's a terrorist tactic to let people know that lists are being made and you could end up on it."
See BOLO, IRS.
And the left/democrats want to disarm the US public at the perfectly wrong time.
Florida Concealed Weapon License Application
You wouldn't want to end up on the list, do you? Your sympathizer neighbor might go out and do something horrific to you.
Being on a list is terrifying even if nothing is ever done to you.
Is gun registration a list?
You can not and should not rely on police and the government to always be able protect you. Arm yourselves.
But remember, the Left & Media are happy to point & laugh at anyone saying citizens should take steps to provide for their own security--look at the scared little Republicans, clinging to their guns, afraid of every boogeyman out there, ha ha ha!
And who thought it was a good idea to hire a Muslim as a security guard? Might as well hire a Klingon to be head of security on the Enterprise.
Got some bolts to clean and knives to sharpen.
We have one group that wants to kill us and another that wants to take away our ability to defend ourselves.
They seem to be working together.
Reports of the list came to light online when Vocativ reported the list was shared via the encrypted app, Telegram, and called on supporters to kill.
I interpret this to mean they didn't publish it on an open website, they sent it to their known associates.
Why would Florida be a over-represented target, although only slightly? Florida is 6.31% of the US population, which applied to the 8,000 list would be 504. Does simply being Jewish get you on the list? Or do you have to speak out against Palestinian violence?
Related: NY Newspaper Publishes Names & Addresses of Gun Permit Owners
But yeah, publishing lists, so dangerous now, so scary.
Ignorance is Bliss said...And who thought it was a good idea to hire a Muslim as a security guard? Might as well hire a Klingon to be head of security on the Enterprise.
Ok, that was my first laugh of the morning; thanks IiB.
@Ignorance, eventually they did promote Worf to head of security on the Enterprise. Now Romulans are a different matter.
Let's be honest, Worf wasn't a particularly good security chief. I seem to recall all sorts of security breaches happening practically every episode.
Muslims and Terrorists can KMA. Come at me punks.
Lists and terrorism are old companions. The Jacobins, the original terrorism theorists, used to spend long evening making lists of aristocrats in need of killing. The arch-Jacobin Robespierre let it be known in his speeches before the Assembly that he had a secret "list of traitors", which he used to terrorize the deputies into voting unanimously for whatever lunatic policy he sponsored, until those same terrorized legislators decided to not be intimidated and to strike back.
Donal Trump is America's Thermidorian Reaction, btw.
Rick said...Why would Florida be a over-represented target, although only slightly? Florida is 6.31% of the US population, which applied to the 8,000 list would be 504. Does simply being Jewish get you on the list?
Add in that CENTCOM and SOCOM are both in Florida. Those two HQ have to be high on the ISIS most wanted list. And yes, they have lots of DoD civilians and contractors associated with them. As well as DoD families.
Miriam and Fredor are on the list. But's a different list. It's the "Friends of Allah" list.
Amanda and Inga are also on the list. Sounds like ISIS needs to clean up their mailing list or Amanda's getting three gift baskets this Ramadan...
Is gun registration a list?
Miz Hillary sez, "You betcha!"
It's war. We could win it if we wished to be brutal enough. It's all in Apocalypse Now. The only question is would we prefer to continue to "absorb" these attacks, or do we want to solve them? Deal out enough death and this problem can be solved for a generation. Nobody likes to fight for a losing side that can be shown to be unable to win.
'Why would Florida be a over-represented target'
There are quite a few leaders of the right in FL. Drudge, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Lou Dobbs and............Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago.
you mean a pro-Christian group- right?
But, as the article ends, "the FBI is aware of this and the agency will work closely with the Joint-Terrorism Task Force to keep citizens safe," so nothing to worry about.
tim in vermont said...
"It's war. We could win it if we wished to be brutal enough."
But first you need to be unified and solidify your own ranks. Identifying the enemy is the first part and we have enemies on two sides here.
I am so glad our nominee is Trump and not Jeb or Rubio. We may actually get to identify our enemies.
Don't kid yourself, the real list includes most Americans, whom they will gladly kill.
It's all in Apocalypse Now.
You do realize that Apocalypse Now is a work of fiction.
The Drill SGT said...
Add in that CENTCOM and SOCOM are both in Florida
I thought about that but the list is described as civilians. Maybe they meant civilians were included. There's also no need to put military members on a list. They're already identified targets.
"It's a terrorist tactic to let people know that lists are being made and you could end up on it. If you knew what you were supposed to do to stay off the list, you might do it. You might completely on your own try to imagine what you could do to stay off the list. Keep a low profile."
This is exactly the tactic that is behind the lefts push to publish donor lists. It is the tactic used by our President when he calls citizens out by name from the bully pulpit.
Ask Brendan Eich about lists.
Withdraw from social media? Delete your account? And miss out on this cornucopia of opportunities?
To highlight how crazily meta this whole Orlando thing has already become, I previously pointed out; 10:26 PM how unctuously conservative blogger Rod Dreher had bemoaned the exploitation of Orlando in order to piously exploit Orlando himself to tacitly promote his Benedict Option project by raising the specter of anti-Christian demonization.
Lo and behold, it looks like liberal blogger Peter Simek couldn't wait to do just that.
The meta thing is, the same publisher, Wick Allison, promotes both bloggers, just to different commercial audiences.
HoodlumDoodlum said...
Florida Concealed Weapon License Application
6/13/16, 10:35 AM"
The interesting thing about qualifying for a license in Florida is that our current less than illustrious Secretary of State would not qualify based on his DD-214 (which as yet twelves years on has yet to be seen).
Ricck,
I was talking about all the non-uniformed folks associated with the place that could be threatened.
Mrs Thomas, wife of General Raymond A. Thomas for example
Trump likes lists too.
"NEWTON, Iowa — Donald J. Trump, who earlier in the week said he was open to requiring Muslims in the United States to register in a database, said on Thursday night that he “would certainly implement that — absolutely.”
Mr. Trump was asked about the issue by an NBC News reporter and pressed on whether all Muslims in the country would be forced to register. “They have to be,” he said. “They have to be.’’
When asked how a system of registering Muslims would be carried out — whether, for instance, mosques would be where people could register — Mr. Trump said: “Different places. You sign up at different places. But it’s all about management. Our country has no management.’’
Asked later, as he signed autographs, how such a database would be different from Jews having to register in Nazi Germany, Mr. Trump repeatedly said, “You tell me,” until he stopped responding to the question."
@Althouse, if you're on the list may I suggest you contact the Hope Rod & Gun club and see whether they offer defensive handgun training and concealed carry training.
Christians put out hit lists too, ya know. They are just as bad.
Miriam the Troll, I'll answer for Trump. The Jews weren't on a list because they were killers, they were on a list to be killed. Trick question - is the sky blue in your world?
Are the lists in binders?
Freder Frederson said...
You do realize that Apocalypse Now is a work of fiction.
All of us realize that Freder Frederson is a work of fiction name.
From Miriam's 11:24 comment: How would such a database would be different from Jews having to register in Nazi Germany...
If the Jews believed non-Jews should be killed, enslaved, or taxed, if the Jews had believed gays, idolaters, and apostates should be killed as as act of compassion, if the Jews believed their god commanded them to rule the world in his name by any means necessary, if the Jews had actual armies of armed and trained gunmen living among the Germans engaging in deadly attacks on unarmed, unsuspecting citizens — then it would be no different.
That Miriam and the report can't see the distinction is indicative of the fatal blindness of the proglodyte left.
Is gun registration a list?
I thought gun registration was declared unconstitutional. It was a sheriff here in MT, Jay Printz, who was plaintiff.
But I'm sure concealed carry permits are on a list, and those calls to NCIC when you buy at a gun shop instead of a gun show. The info is supposed to be discarded, but who really knows.
Freda Foreperson wrote: You do realize that Apocalypse Now is a work of fiction. (sic)
Like Obama's biography and Hillary's comments about her email server?
"The Jews weren't on a list because they were killers, they were on a list to be killed."
thanks, Jack Wayne. & Quaestor. Big difference.
Hey, well done! That's both timely fear-mongering and well-placed chum!
And please don't forget to click through to Amazon through the handy portal.
The local Rush affiliate breaks away from Mark Steyn tearing down the official lies to cover an official lie news conference.
I quickly switched to my internet backup WJR, which has a less idiotic news director. They too switched away.
So I'll have to wait and download the first hour and patch it in to the recorded version for the HD.
Rush listeners are not waiting for breaking news. They hate the breaking news medium. They get their news from more reliable sources. News directors believe the opposite.
"I would suspect a head of a hospital or, perhaps, a local community leader. Those are the individuals that may appear on the list--or just a local banker or local school teacher--someone who, for some reason, was in the public eye."
Oh, well. I piss off so many people routinely in the course of my work that I assume I am always on someone's hit list at any given time. I suspect teachers and bankers and hospital CEOs and community leaders can say the same thing.
Normally I'd listen to WWVA Wheeling WV but a couple of years ago they automated it and it always returns to Rush after breaks thirty seconds late.
On the plus side, you get mine closings for various shifts.
Since the freak lived on the Treasure Coast, maybe it's really a list of "lone-wolf" ISIS members, not civilian targets.
Might explain the non-public release of the list.
I will consider it a badge of honor to be on that list.
Come get some, you jihadi scum!!
Freder Frederickson wrote:
You do realize that Apocalypse Now is a work of fiction.
so was Roots.
Yesterday Curt Schilling unleashed a string of twitter tweats that included:
"Before idiots start screaming dumb stuff, law abiding citizens NOT permitted CC on the property. Even those with a license"
"Took me around 2 months to acquire my Florida CC license as an out of state applicant"
CC means "concealed carry" (of a weapon), apparently forbidden in the venue of the Orlando massacre:
"Firearms regulations are uniform throughout Florida, and a carry license is valid everywhere other than in a few specially-defined areas. These specially-defined prohibited areas include:
"...Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;
Any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; (With an exception for students, faculty and visitors keeping firearms stored in their cars.) [7]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Florida
Strongly contrasting with:
"In 1640 it was ordered in Massachusetts that in every township the attendants at church should carry a "competent number of peeces, fixed and compleat with powder and shot and swords every Lords-day to the meeting-house;" one armed man from each household was then thought advisable and necessary for public safety. In 1642 six men with muskets and powder and shot were thought sufficient for protection for each church. In Connecticut similar mandates were issued, and as the orders were neglected "by divers persones," a law was passed in 1643 that each offender should forfeit twelve pence for each offence. In 1644 a fourth part of the "trayned hand" was obliged to come armed each Sabbath, and the sentinels were ordered to keep their matches constantly lighted for use in their match-locks. They were also commanded to wear armor, which consisted of "coats basted with cotton-wool, and thus made defensive against Indian arrows." In 1650 so much dread and fear were felt of Sunday attacks from the red men that the Sabbath-Day guard was doubled in number. In 1692, the Connecticut Legislature ordered one fifth of the soldiers in each town to come armed to each meeting, and that nowhere should be present as a guard at time of public worship fewer than eight soldiers and a sergeant. In Hadley the guard was allowed annually from the public treasury a pound of lead and a pound of powder to each soldier.
No details that could add to safety on the Sabbath were forgotten or overlooked by the New Haven church; bullets were made common currency at the value of a farthing, in order that they might be plentiful and in every one's possession..."
http://www.reformedreader.org/puritans/sabbath.puritan.newengland/sabbath.puritan.newengland.chapter2.htm
No thread is complete without an Amanda / Miriam tu quoque!
Add muslims to the sex offender registry in return.
So all Muslims should be on the list as potential killers? When Trump sounds like ISIS it should give people pause.
The best advise (As the police are always too late and too few to protect) is to buy, learn to use, obtain a CCW license/permit (Available except in such Fascist jurisdictions as California and NY) and always keep handy (And secure from children) a handgun (.380 & above caliber).
Will history repeat itself? Sounds like we're back to WW2 after Pearl Harbor, Japanese people were all lumped together as the enemy and put in internment camps. Maybe we can start building these camps for Muslims. Maybe GTMO can be repurposed.
Hillary is doing great in her speech now.. she is even going after the Saudis, Qataris.. ban assault weapons, go after sympathizers.. she is doing orders of magnitude better than Obama.
You do realize that Apocalypse Now is a work of fiction
Yes, and I also realize that we lost that war, but the ideas are valid. If you want to win a war, you have to kill a lot of military aged men and scare and demoralize the rest. But our CnC has already declared that it is our policy to "absorb" these attacks.
Will history repeat itself? Sounds like we're back to WW2 after Pearl Harbor, Japanese people were all lumped together as the enemy and put in internment camps. Maybe we can start building these camps for Muslims. Maybe GTMO can be repurposed.
It always does. But in this case it's limited to hysterical rhetoric by people desperate to turn a tragedy into political gain. Never let a crisis go to waste.
Quaestor said:
"From Miriam's 11:24 comment: 'How would such a database would be different from Jews having to register in Nazi Germany...'
"If the Jews believed non-Jews should be killed, enslaved, or taxed, if the Jews had believed gays, idolaters, and apostates should be killed as as act of compassion, if the Jews believed their god commanded them to rule the world in his name by any means necessary, if the Jews had actual armies of armed and trained gunmen living among the Germans engaging in deadly attacks on unarmed, unsuspecting citizens — then it would be no different."
"That Miriam and the report can't see the distinction is indicative of the fatal blindness of the proglodyte left."
How do you know all or even most Muslims believe they are commanded to kill infidels and rule the world in his name? How does your asserted bias in this matter differ from the belief by those responsible for the Holocaust that Jews were vermin, were impure, inferior, malignant and a toxin to Aryan society? The Nazis believed they had a right to treat the Jews as they did because of their perception of the Jews--as a whole--as beastly and dangerous. You and your ilk believe all Muslims should be subject to whatever arbitrary authority and restriction on their lives as may be imposed because of your perception that that Muslims, as a whole, are beastly and dangerous.
I wish I could buy Miriam air time nationally. She could single-handedly cause Hillary to lose.
Robert, is everything black and white with you? All or nothing? It's a rhetorical question, we all know the answer is yes. Unless, of course it comes to the crimes of the communists, then it is equivocation to the point of splitting frog hairs.
"Miriam said...
Trump likes lists too."
What a steaming pile. This is months old. And has been addressed completely. Trump was speaking of putting up walls and keeping Muslim refugees from entering the US, and the reporter was adding registration for citizens questions into the conversation. Like most lefties you are both a liar and an idiot.
"How would such a database would be different from Jews having to register in Nazi Germany..."
So, we have a terrorist watch list which is a database of people who may be terrorists. WE therefore keep lists.
When the refugees come over the administration assures us that they will vet these refugees. Which suggest they are vetting them using some sort of data... like a database or something.
But, there is no actual list to compare to. But then you can't really vet people, can you.
We'll need to register people then and put them on a list.
And I guess you probably think that asking illegals to be registered means that we are like Nazi germany too? Since, who is and isn't legal requires a database...
Speaking of databases, are you opposed to actual Database software? Since compiling lists of cutomers or users would be like the nazis asking for your papers
" The Nazis believed they had a right to treat the Jews as they did because of their perception of the Jews--as a whole--as beastly and dangerous"
Thats certainly what the jihadis think of the gays. they think its moral to massacre them while they're out clubbing. Might want to have a list of people who hold such views.
Maybe we can start building these camps for Muslims.
Left wing zealots have predicted 416 of the last 1 internment roundups.
The Ninth Circuit recently decided that Californians don't have the right to concealed carry, or any other carry, absent a local sheriff's decision that they "need" to carry a weapon. Will CADOJ and California's political sheriffs grant that appearing on DAESH's list is sufficient "need"?
Ah here come the Trump apologists. Trying to put a prettier face on Trump's bigotry. He said what he said, he meant what he said, but his sycophants feel the need to interpret.
How do you know all or even most Muslims believe they are commanded to kill infidels and rule the world in his name?
Why would this matter? We know there is an unacceptable proportion because we regularly witness them killing people.
You can tell who is serious and who is not by how they frame the question.
Miriam said...
"So all Muslims should be on the list as potential killers? When Trump sounds like ISIS it should give people pause."
Just you. The rest of us are honest about what Muslims are. I have been there. Seen what they do to women. I was even enthusiastic about trying to liberate Muslim women. Not so much now.
You are a women who fronts for Islamists so I respectfully request that you visit Afghanistan for a year. Go live with them. See what they are like. After they cut off your clitoris and sell you to a tribe to be married and lock you in a compound you don't get to leave until you are old we will see if you think we should have more of them here.
You would be beaten often. You would never show your hair to a man that isn't your husband/owner. Sex will be only for babies after you heal from being held down on a table by the other women and having your clitoris removed. Only a dipshit woman like you would want more of that here.
There's a list?
Where can I sign up?
Endless Leftist apologies for radical Islam virtually ensure that someday moderate Muslims will be driven out or put in camps. History doesn't fuck around.
Lauderdale Vet said...
There's a list?
Where can I sign up?
Alas. I'm probably on several.
Most of which begin with the word "shit".
The purpose of terrorism is intimidation, of course.
But realistically, this will work.
Achilles, you don't know any American Muslims at all? Is that how Muslims live everywhere? Are these barbaric things being done due to cultural reasons or strictly religious? How do you explain educated, decent law abiding American Muslims who don't do these things? I've got two doctors who are Muslim, one a woman and one a man. Both are kind, intelligent and nothing about them makes me fear they will go on a killing spree anytime soon.
I wonder what Wikileaks would do if the list were leaked to them?.......Shouldn't the people on the list be notified that they are on the list? If some group of psycho killers banded together and put my name on such a list, I would be eager to know of that fact.......The mere existence of this list is an argument against Muslim immigration.
Can someone bring me up to speed on what political or legal price the Democrat Party ever paid for interning the Japanese? Cause I never heard of any, and FDR is still idolized by the Left.
Meanwhile, you know who opposed the Japanese internment camps? J Edgar Hoover (falsely post-humously demonized as a trannie by the Left, which is hilarious in retrospect) and Sen. Joseph McCarthy, the worst human being who ever lived according to the Left.
What price did FDR and the Democrats pay for the Japanese internment campa they created?
You don't get to bring up the Japanese internment camps up until you answer that question, Miriam.
But for the love of Allah, people! Remember--above all else--that the major threat to the West is Islamophobia!
Miriam, my guess is that you're good Muslim neighbors are about equally offended by Mohammed cartoon contests as they are with this latest mass murderer. They're the sea in which the fishes swim.
Miriam, I dated a very kind, educated, intelligent Kuwaiti man while in college. I have known and worked with many Muslims, some of whom were close friends My late husband's closest friend was an Egyptian Muslim. Two beliefs they all shared: 1. The destruction of Israel. 2. Eventual Islamic world rule. They truly believe that we will all be better off under Sharia. My dissent would only elicit smiles and shaking of heads.
"Miriam said...
Ah here come the Trump apologists. Trying to put a prettier face on Trump's bigotry. He said what he said, he meant what he said, but his sycophants feel the need to interpret."
No you lying piece of shit. Even the lefty "Politifact" knows it's bullshit. Here is a breakdown of what was asked, and what was was said. Let me know if you get stuck on any big words:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/nov/24/donald-trumps-comments-database-american-muslims/
Miriam wrote: Are these barbaric things being done due to cultural reasons or strictly religious?
It takes a special kind of stupid to even compose such a sentence.
Religion IS culture.
I've got two doctors who are Muslim, one a woman and one a man. Both are kind, intelligent and nothing about them makes me fear they will go on a killing spree anytime soon.
Given your incisive powers of observation and decrement I have not the slightest doubt that the opinions and prejudices of your Muslim physicians, of which you have not admitted any knowledge, would not alarm you. Your persistent and oblivious use of logical fallacies in your posts leads me to conclude that should one of your Muslim medicos produce a live grenade you'd think it was a suppository.
The internment program was fragrant with many bad odors. Roumanian nationals were interned, but not Italians. FDR famously excused them, saying that Italians were just a bunch of opera lovers. Roumanians sadly had no Verdi and were not part of the New Deal coalition......On the other side of the equation, Roosevelt accepted only about five hundred German Jewish refugees during the thirties. Chamberlain, by way of contrast, accepted about fifty thousand of those poor souls.
Miriam said...
How do you explain educated, decent law abiding American Muslims who don't do these things?
They don't do these things until one day, they do, like the Orlando guy or Major Hassan, or Bin Laden (Western educated millionaire)
http://www.cultureandreligion.com
"Culture defines the social forces within a community involving its conventions for behavior, ranging from food preparation techniques, to forms of entertainment that keep the community together like music or dancing, to dating rituals, and so on.
Religion defines how the community members interpret their role in the universe, with this teaching based on the local culture, so different religions rise out of different cultures. Similarly when members of one religion convert members of a foreign culture often the resulting religion in that area is affected by the host culture."
Quaestor, I suspected for sometime now that you were unintelligent. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.
http://www.differencebtw.com/difference-between-culture-and-religion/
Difference:
The main difference between culture and religion is that culture is based on the shared values of human being, its tend to be manmade while religion is wholly associated with the God, The Creator and most of the religion in the world claims their religion come from God side.
Culture VS Religion
Culture:
Culture is the shared values of knowledge, belief, thoughts, customs, ideas, habits, and many other relevant things that are common between the members of a specific society. Culture is also uses to define the complex networks of practices and accumulated knowledge and ideas that is transmitted via social interaction and exist in specific human groups or cultures. Some aspects of human behaviours like language, social practices like kinship, gender and marriage, expressive forms like music, dance, ritual, religion, and technologies like cooking, shelter, clothing are called to be cultural universals, usually found in all human societies. Culture is different from community to community, region to region, or country to country.
Religion:
Religion means the organised collection of beliefs, myths, and world views that related humanity with each other to an order of existence. Many religions have their own narratives, and symbols that explain the meaning, and origin of life or universe in their own way. The practice of religion includes rituals, sermons, veneration, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, funerary services, matrimonial services, prayer, dance, music, public services, or other aspects of human culture. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc. are some common examples of religion. Every religion has its own spiritual leader or messenger.
Differences:
Following are the fundamental differences between culture and religion.
Culture is a process of evolution while religion is a process of revelation.
Religion exists in some written forms like holy or sacred books while culture exists in practical form. Behavior and habits shows the culture of a specific community.
Religion is wholly God made while culture is manmade.
Two different religion mostly shares the same culture. For example, some of the habits of American Christian and Muslims are same but same religion may not have different cultures.
Cultures varies with the passage of time while it is impossible to rewrite the fundamental structure or basic structure of the religion.
Cracker at 12:50, exactly.
I'll add this fantastic comment swiped from another blog:
"This was not a hate crime, it was an act of pious devotion.
A deliberate self-martyrdom in the cause of Islamic Jihad.
It’s participation in what they consider a central sacrament of their Faith.
The conceptual failure of the Left is to excuse acts of this nature as “hate”. It has nothing to do with hate. It’s done coolly, dispassionately, even joyously in the Name of his God. Until our leaders and elites understand this reality, of-course they are going to fail to address this as what it is; an abomination against Western Liberal civilization.
The Carthaginians sacrificed their own living children to Ba’al.
The Aztecs cut-out the living hearts out of their victims to appease their Gods.
Would you tolerate this today? Excuse it, or ruthlessly stamp it out?"
Source: gaypatriot.net
Miriam said...
How do you explain educated, decent law abiding American Muslims who don't do these things?
This example is only confounding to people who believe literally every person from the religion is a terrorist, or are pretending to believe this is what their opponents believe. Maybe a few people do believe this, but in terms of the polity as a whole it's a strawman.
The problem is not that every Muslim is a terrorist or supports terrorists. The problems are that
(1) an unacceptably high number do, and
(2) we can't tell the difference between those who do and those who don't, and
(3) the prevalence of second generation attacks shows that growing up in American culture doesn't mitigate the issue. If anything it seems to exacerbate the problem. Maybe this is just because American schools teach them to hate America, but it's likely also our culture and theirs, driven by religion, don't fit well together.
2/3 of UK Muslims said that they would not tell the police if they had information about a planned terror attack by one of their co-religionists.
Sheesh. Even PP worked in an angle to get PR for abortions:
"Planned Parenthood Black Community alleged the attack was due to “toxic masculinity” and “imperialist homophobia,” while simultaneously claiming it has nothing to do with Islam...Planned Parenthood Black Community explained, stating, “Toxic masculinity enables rapists & rape culture, violent heterosexism & attacks on reproductive freedom” (mrctv.com)
Obama says there is "no evidence" that ISIS was involved in this attack.
Well, except for ISIS claiming responsibility for the attack!
"The conceptual failure of the Left is to excuse acts of this nature as “hate”. It has nothing to do with hate. It’s done coolly, dispassionately, even joyously in the Name of his God."
Thanks for that, Meeeea. A very interesting perspective.
@Rick - If you take away Amanda's straw men, she'll have no arguments at all.
Original Mike said...
@Rick - If you take away Amanda's straw men, she'll have no arguments at all.
If we point out and mock her strawmen rather than argue them maybe she'll come up with real arguments. I want to help her become a better person. I'm a giver that way.
Culture is the shared values of knowledge, belief, thoughts, customs, ideas, habits, and many other relevant things that are common between the members of a specific society. Copied from Wikipedia no doubt, and the fact that you cannot recognize that the quotation you have cited demolishes your own argument speaks volumes about you, Miriam.
Among those shared beliefs, ideas and values are those inculcated by RELIGION. This is particularly true in nation states with a national or official cult, such as most Muslim-majority countries.
Religion is culture. It is nothing but culture. Culture can be many other things as well. However if a society is religious, then religion is part of that culture.
GAME, SET, and MATCH to Quaestor.
Quaestor, taking a paragraph out of context and trying to use it to prove your point only proves you are now scrambling to not look like the idiot you proved yourself to be, LOL! Honestly I did hope you weren't as stupid as you sounded when you said "religion IS culture". What a dumbass.
Both CBS and Time magazine have linked ISIS with this atrocity.
Miriam said...
What a dumbass.
Says the person hanging her entire argument on a meaningless distinction.
Much of what we take for culture derives from religion, and therefore religion is in fact more cultural that Culture
For example what do we typically consider high culture? Is it not the fine arts, literature, music, and philosophy? In every Western society the historical connection between Christianity and culture is obvious to any educated person. Even the hastily secular low culture of popular music derives from religion. Those who doubt this are unaware of the roots of rock and roll in 19th century Black spiritual music. Painting, sculpture, fresco, and all forms of polyphonic music grow directly from rootstock planted by the Medieval Church. Philosophy began in Greece as a response to classical paganism and was later adopted and evolved by Christian Scholastics in support of religion rather than in opposition. In the 17th century philosophy returned to its native antagonistic position vis the majority church, but its interdependence with religion remains undeniable and patently obvious.
In Islamic society the role of religion in culture is even deeper and more pervasive. Painting and decorative art in Muslim majority societies is almost entirely geometrical and abstract. Why? Because the Quran and the Hadiths forbid anything that even relates to idolatry, there is a universal proscription against artistic portrayals of natural forms. There are many other examples.
Rick and Quaestor,
I believe that should be strawperson or cisstraw, not strawman.
Religion might be PART of culture, not the TOTALITY of it. How hard is that to grasp, really? The two are not the SAME thing.
Quaestor, taking a paragraph out of context and trying to use it to prove your point only proves...
That I am entirely correct, and that your long-winded spiel was entirely misunderstood by its author. You dug your own grave, Miriam. All I did was dance on it.
Trying to draw a distinct between culture and religion is like trying to draw a distinction between things that fly and have feathers and birds.
How hard is that to grasp, really?
For you apparently, impossible. Religion is no more different from culture than apples are different from the set of all edible fruit.
Your remarkably unreflective essay on the "difference" between religion and culture is... breathtaking.
Questor, it is you who continues to misunderstand the meanings of culture and religion, despite the material I provided. Oh well you can lead a dumbass to water but you can't force him to drink.
I think I understand why you've been struggling to separate religion from culture. It's because you don't understand categorical hierarchies. Generally toddlers don't understand this type of ordering, but a normally developing mind grasps the concept spontaneously around age four. Research has shown that if a child doesn't "grok" catagorical hierarchies by age six he never will.
Are you over six, Miriam? If so, too bad.
Miriam.
Would you like a cracker?
Typo alert: Much of what we take for culture derives from religion, and therefore religion is in fact more cultural that Culture
Should read: Much of what we take for culture derives from religion, and therefore religion is in fact more cultural than Culture.
Sorry for any resultant confusion.
Miriam wrote:
Culture is a process of evolution while religion is a process of revelation.
Religion exists in some written forms like holy or sacred books while culture exists in practical form. Behavior and habits shows the culture of a specific community.
The distinction you see between culture and religion is not there in Islam The culture IS the religion. Or rather, the religion determines the culture.
You are used to the idea of separation of church and state. That is a head chopping offense, there.
Robert Cook said... You and your ilk believe all Muslims should be subject to whatever arbitrary authority and restriction on their lives as may be imposed because of your perception that that Muslims, as a whole, are beastly and dangerous.
I hope you understand how rich that is coming from someone many of us consider a Communist/Stalin apologist, Robert. You know, the people who actually had camps, camps where millions were killed?
Ah, forget it, Stalin wasn't a REAL Communist, Mao wasn't a REAL Communist, I know, I know.
Miriam wrote: Culture is a process of evolution while religion is a process of revelation.
You'll have to work very hard to explain how religion is a process of revelation from a non-existant entity, such as Jupiter, Odin, or Q'uq'umatz (I will grant the existence of the Abrahamic god just to relive the burdens on your delicate think-organ.) I suggest consulting Sisyphus about the labor required.
I love to read Miriam's undergrad Sociology essay question answers.
History is replete with examples of evolution of religion. Here's are two: According to Hesiod Dionysos was a minor deity notable mainly for the invention of wine. His drunken, disorderly ways got him banned from Olympus, so he spent his time on earth cavorting with nymphs and getting humans to gather grapes for his magical transformations. However, by the first century AD Dionysos had evolved from an unimportant exile from Olympus to the central figure in a mystery cult promising spiritual transcendence and immortality.
The Norse pantheon was divided into two tribes, the Æsir and the Vanir, which occasionally warred but united to oppose the frost giants. Archeology suggests that the Vanir were descended from the tribal cults of the pre-Indo-European settlement. The Æsir appear to have been imports from the Mediterranean world in the early Bronze Age. Cultural evolution melded these two religions into one. It had nothing to do with "revelation," unless you want to admit that Frey talks to people.
LEGAL QUESTIONS: As the nightclub was apparently a "No Guns Zone", is the owner of it (And her insurance covers) liable for damages as she did not provide at-the-door security at a reasonable level (eg The same as at airports or court houses) OR even at the minimal level as would prevent/detect someone bringing in a rifle?
If a judge would declare that massacre an "Act Of War", would such a decision (If not overturned on appeal) free them from liability?
Even the Christian religion, so full of revelations, has changed over time, that is to say evolved. The most profound change in Christianity proceeded from the works of Luther, who NEVER claimed authority from revelation.
With although litigious LGBTQ-types at my throat I'd push hard for an "act of war" ruling, if I were a stakeholder in that club.
How do you know all or even most Muslims believe they are commanded to kill infidels and rule the world in his name?
Even if a statistically invisible 0.125% believed those things it would represent 2 million people, as I pointed out to you before.
(Speaking of Sisyphus, trying to reason Robert Cook out of his lifetime of bigotry is much like rolling that hellish rock.)
Happily (or more precisely unhappily) there are opinion surveys and sociological/poli-sci studies which informs those who seek to be informed that the number is greater than 20%. That's more than 300 million.
The Cracker Emcee said:
"Endless Leftist apologies for radical Islam virtually ensure that someday moderate Muslims will be driven out or put in camps. History doesn't fuck around."
Exactly right. Innocent Muslim-Americans, who have lived here peacefully for many decades, who have embraced the American culture and system of laws, will be hurt in the ensuing backlash that will occur in reaction to violence from first-generation radicalized Muslim youths. Yet another example of progressives hurting those they claim to want to help. If the progressives target you as a member of a "victim" group that they need to protect, consider yourself warned.
Present-day middle-eastern Muslim culture is unnacceptably brutal. The brutality of middle-eastern Muslims towards women-- and gays and Jews and Christians and other Muslims-- has no present-day equivalent. It's delusional madness that so many on the left try to create moral equivalencies that have no basis in reality. Muslim honor-killings of young women is not the fault of Christians or American gun-owners. Neither is the Muslim act of throwing gays off of buildings.
Sane people, which includes Muslim-Americans, do not want to see that butality take root and spread here in the US. Temporarily putting a halt to immigration from radicalized areas might slow the growth of a violent Jihadist subculture in the US, and thus save lives. Why are progressives so opposed to this?
" is the owner of it (And her insurance covers) liable for damages as she did not provide at-the-door security at a reasonable level "
I think, as more info comes out, the Orlando Police are as liable and we will learn a lot as less politically correct, or non-administration controlled sources start to weigh in on motives and the real story.
The cops waited outside as he killed hostages and talked to them on his cell phone.
Your posting rules will not allow that source. If anyone is interested in truth, Here it is as a non-link.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/06/12/here-we-go-orlando-jihadist-was-radicalized-by-prison-trained-black-panther-marcus-dwayne-robertson/
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