Said Billy Corgan (the rock star of Smashing Pumpkins) (as the screen shows pictures of Michael Richards and Paula Deen).
"I could use the wrong racial epithet or say the wrong thing to you or look down at the wrong part of your body and be castigated and it's a meme and I'm a horrible person. Every day through the media, through advertising, we see people being degraded, we see people doing all sorts of things that we should be horrified at as a culture. So we've normalized all sorts of things, but we live in a world where one word could destroy your life but it's OK to, if you're a social-justice warrior, spit in somebody's face."
Long video at the link. Corgan seems to be devoted to libertarian media and willing to put his reputation on the line. More quotes from the long video
here, including a big slam on Bernie Sanders:
"To be talking in America in 2016 about, you know, Mao is a good idea and a socialist is running for President and that’s okay, and we’re going to go back to these kinds of crazy tax rates and completely disempower the innovators in our country, because the new class, the new technocratic class, wants to keep their position and they want to keep everybody else from coming in the game. I mean, it’s crazy to me."
Posts
93 comments:
Saw nothing to disagree with here.
Dang. I wasted my first commenter status. What I wish I had written is ...
Looks like a Trump voter to me.
It's not much better but I did get a "Trum" in there.
Dang. I mistyped Trump.
Bad start to my commenter day.
Rock "star?"
Star? I've never heard of this guy much less listen to him sing or play music.
Loose use of the word "star." Fourth rate; if that.
Surely there are better bands that play in bars in Madison.
"Rock "star?"
Star? I've never heard of this guy much less listen to him sing or play music."
Beeyotch please. The Smashing Pumpkinds were huge, and Corgan is a brilliant songwriter. I'm 60 yrs old and can testify that the word star applies to Corgan. My suggestion to Mr. Begley is that he get out more.
He listens to infowars, David Knight, Alex Jones et al. On the regular . Says those are the informed people .
What a freaking nutbag .
Every day through the media, through advertising, we see people being degraded, we see people doing all sorts of things that we should be horrified at as a culture. So we've normalized all sorts of things, but we live in a world where one word could destroy your life but it's OK to, if you're a social-justice warrior, spit in somebody's face."
He accurately points to a dichotomy that exists in the media culture that is meant to intimidate and silence.
harrogate thinks his side will always maintain the power to decide.
What an ahistorical nutbag.
A comedian can poke fun at Mother Theresa and the bit would be considered edgy. If he should attempt to mock Winnie Mandela, his career would be over. There are some absurd and ridiculous figures on the left, but they live in a mockery free zone.
Wait... it's controversial to call a guy who calls himself "socialist" and took his honeymoon in the USSR "socialist?" Someone had better tell Bernie Sanders.
It's controversial to point out that so-called "capitalists" actually work to game the system so as to impose legal barriers to entry to their industries? Someone had better tell Donald Trump. Hell, someone had better tell Adam Smith.
It's controversial to point out that supporting the wrong political cause can cost you your career? Someone had better tell Brendan Eich and Tim Hunt and, if not for some of my friends and colleagues, Curtis Yarvin.
As with Ron Paul's defense of sound currency, the problem here isn't the message—it's that telling the simple truth is now considered a lunatic fringe thing to do.
David Begley said: "Rock "star?" Star? I've never heard of this guy much less listen to him sing or play music. Loose use of the word "star." Fourth rate; if that."
Begley, what are you, 80 years old?
Corgan was at the very front rank of rock stars of the 90s, alongside Kurt Cobain and Eddie Vedder, and he's continued to perform over the years. Maybe you sat out the 90s. I've sat out some decades of pop music, mostly, but at least I know the parts of pop culture I ignored.
What a freaking nutbag ."
Or you could address his assertions and statements. Unlike most of the lefty commenters here, I think you're actually smart enough to do it. C'mon, Harro – exert yourself a little.
I have new found respect for Corgan.
The Smashing Pumpkins were pretty popular ion the 1990's.
The hat and the facial hair are not working for him, especially with that scarf. Is he doing that to show that he can?
Kudos to you for featuring this guy here, before the SJW red brigades get to him.
"at least I know the parts of pop culture I ignored" Which hints at a conundrum for the snobs among us: which parts of pop culture that we ignore as a matter of course and good taste are actually worth knowing, if only to keep in touch with the plebs? How does one decide what is ignorable-but-worth-knowing? And how to assess the opportunity costs of giving up any of the good stuff to get acquainted with the Smashing Pumpkins?
Good for Corgan. I expect him to be frozen out by the left any minute. But every point he said makes total sense. He is an artist first and foremost. And he's also rich. So he doesn't want his speech stifled, and so Can see the degree to which the left does it. Socialism also targets HIM as the enemy.
He was a lefty, or maybe was inscrutable and amongst lefties so he know exactly what the left is about. And he naturally, as a smart person, Rebels.
Also, not that much of a fan, but he was/is really talented as a songwriter and guitar player. (His singing is an acquired taste). Siamese Dream and Melancholy are not great 90's Grungy albums. Even though they weren't really grunge. They were far more arty.
I missed the 90's. Reason? She's living in Madison now and is in two rock bands. Her top song is "Coyotes of Madison" and I wrote it.
Sheesh. For all of you whinging about the horrible left threatening careers for saying the "wrong" thing, don't any of you remember what happened to the Dixie Chicks at the height of their popularity.
Hypocrites.
Begley, I'm starting to see why you have the opinions you have. You didn't bother looking Corgan up, you simply decided: "Star? I've never heard of this guy much less listen to him sing or play music. Loose use of the word "star." Fourth rate; if that."
He's not a star because Begley has never heard of him. Right. No research needed. No wonder you're a doctrinaire conservative, you really do think you just need to convince everyone else that you're already right, not compromise with popular will. You really don't care what anyone else thinks, do you? No wonder the CruzMissile went down like the Titanic. At least Trump listens to people.
You're a victim of your own inflated sense of importance.
Freder Frederson:
I remember quite well that conservative country music fans stopped buying their albums.
So, you will have to make the point that the situations are the same. Bad analogies will not make your point.
TCom
My lack of awareness of a fourth rate punk rock musician of the 90's is somehow equated with my support for Cruz? Remarkable.
Freder Frederson said...
Sheesh. For all of you whinging about the horrible left threatening careers for saying the "wrong" thing, don't any of you remember what happened to the Dixie Chicks at the height of their popularity.
Hypocrites
That you can't see the difference is rather...........predictable.
Begley,
The only one fourth rate is you. Your comments are a snore.
So, you will have to make the point that the situations are the same.
How exactly is his career going to be destroyed by saying a single word (which is a an extreme exaggeration)? The Obama thought police are not going to throw him in a FEMA reeducation camp. If there were such a thing, Ted Nugent would have been locked up long ago. His career will suffer only because his fans decide his rhetoric is racist, sexist, etc. and will refuse to tacitly support him by attending his concerts or buying his music.
It's called capitalism. Deal with it.
Sat out decades of pop music?
I may have sat out a half-century at this point.
It is hard to believe an adult in the 1990's could have never heard this lyric:
Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage
OR
Today is the greatest
The left wing reaction is not typically through audiences not showing up, but through gatekeepers denying venues, employers disemploying, cancelled contracts and the like. The audience is usually still there, often more than ever, but there is the threat to cut the offender off from the audience.
The right wing reaction, such as to the Dixie Chicks, to the best of my knowledge, whenever it does happen, is a popular boycott. The people fail to show up, do not purchase, etc. It is genuine.
That you can't see the difference is rather...........predictable.
No, I don't see the difference. Explain it to me. The Dixie Chicks (or more specifically Natalie Maines, although Martie McGuire and Emily Robison backed her up fully) stated an opinion about the president and the stupid war he was about to get us into (she didn't even threaten to kill the president like Ted Nugent has on several occasions). Paula Deen was revealed to be racially insensitive at best. Michael Richards probably did get a raw deal, because his incident was not reflective of his career or character, although it was egregious.
I really don't see the difference between celebrities being punished by their fans for their racial or views or their political ones.
Believe it.
The left wing reaction is not typically through audiences not showing up, but through gatekeepers denying venues, employers disemploying, cancelled contracts and the like.
Can you provide some examples please. Otherwise this is just a bold, unsupported statement.
What makes you think that venue owners and employers are part of some vast left-wing conspiracy to deny right thinking Americans their free speech?
Too bad he didn't speak up earlier.
He might have been President.
Paula Deen, for one, as I understand it, didn't lose her audience, she was punished by her gatekeepers, themselves I think concerned for the reaction of THEIR bosses. This is a top-down sort of discipline.
Take the case of Limbaugh. He has always had a much larger, better quality audience (it is, believe it or not, one of the wealthiest demographic slices available on broadcast) but has generally low quality advertisers due to a long term implicit sanction decreed from above. It is the few (the actual Powers That Be) doing the boycott, not the many.
Freder, your question seems disingenuous.
Look at each case you cited, and tell us who punished these people. This is a matter of deduction.
William said...
If he should attempt to mock Winnie Mandela, his career would be over.
Locked up for EIGHT hours for telling Nelson Mandela joke (UK)
Freder Frederson said...
Can you provide some examples please. Otherwise this is just a bold, unsupported statement.
Just about any college campus. Trump rallies.
Freder Frederson:
Your inability to formulate a single cogent point in response to my challenge is noted.
The difference is that one is competition in the marketplace of ideas (capitalism) and the other is attempting to shout down the opposition and foreclose the marketplace of ideas from certain viewpoints (collectivists as illustrated by SJWs and highlighted by Corgan).
You have chosen the side of repression.
Freder Frederson above: "...I really don't see..."
We have reached an accord. I believe you.
Now take your fingers from your ears. Quit saying "La, la, la. I can't hear you." And open your eyes.
Freder Frederson, there are lots of examples. That British astronomer who got yanked into crying on tape over wearing a kitschy shirt, the state of Arizona for cancelling the MLK holiday (the NFL switched a Superbowl over that), Bruce Springsteen and pretty much every other over-valued, overpaid rock star whining about the GOP using their (very much valued, paid-for, and royalty-infused) songs at events...
Please pay attention.
If there wasn't systemic discrimination against conservative viewpoints, one would expect entertainer's salaries to be some function of their audience size times the buying power of the audience.
So, Jon Stewart made 25-30 million per year compared to Rush Limbaugh's 80 million. But Rush has a listener-ship ten times the size of Mr. Stewart's and Rush's is older and wealthier. Rush should have been earning ten times (at least) as much.
Freder Frederson above States that "right thinking" (sic?) Americans are not denied their free speech?
Which Americans are wrong thinking? And is it ok to deny them free speech?
dbp
I had not heard either song until just now.
Well below average. Hard to believe they were popular, but there is no accounting for taste. Especially in modern music.
The state of North Carolina is now in jeopardy of losing contracts with pretty much every left-leaning organization in America, which means pretty much every major organization in America, including major sports, major music acts, etc.
That because they passed an admittedly unnecessary law saying if you have a penis, go to the boy's room, and if you don't, go to the girl's room.
That's not fascism?
And by the way, "vast ____-ring conspiracy" is a Hillary concept. There never was a right-wing one, and there isn't a left-wing one. Straw man.
The problem is people thinking the same, stupid, leftist way.
Bullet with Butterfly Wings won a Grammy in 1997 and was a top 40 hit.
Today was described in a "Blender" article as having "...achieved a remarkable status as one of the defining songs of its generation, perfectly mirroring the fractured alienation of American youth in the 1990s."
It certainly is not to everyone's taste but has undoubtedly achieved a solid level of cultural significance.
Somehow I tend to confuse Smashing Pumpkins with Counting Crows. Nothing alike. It's just the band names, I think.
I think the Dixie Chicks were embraced by the NPR crowd and actually ended up doing okay. They're back now with a new album and I think they're already touring in Europe. One might speculate that Natalie's anti-Bush comment was intended to make their appeal more selective. They wanted a different audience.
I don't mind so much that celebrities and entertainers have to watch what they say and do, within reason at least. I'm seldom interested in the political views of actors or musicians or sports commentators and think that it's part of what they've signed up for, having to be more careful. Just sing, and all that.
Bob Ellison
Since I am 80 I have the same problem.
I confuse The Temptations with The Four Tops. I also confuse Bob Dylan with Marvin Gaye.
The difference , Freder, is the difference between the "Occupy" movement and the "T.E.A. Party" movement. One side wished to repress free speech by calling it hate speech and the other want's to preserve the right for everyone to speak freely.
Just to come full-circle since The Dixie Chicks have come up and we have been talking about Billy Corgan. Here is Smashing Pumpkins version of Landslide.
Well, as far as being castigated as a horrible person for looking down the wrong part of someone's body goes, that's an idiotic Christian/Puritan thing. Corgan is probably an Irish Catholic name. Hang-ups!
The sexualization (or de-sexualization?) of Christianity would solve half of these problems. Not all of them. Probably not the SJW stuff. But Rome wasn't built in a day.
And spare me his trite rant on innovation. No tax rate will stop him from making all the unremarkable music he's made since Siamese Dream. IN fact, you could almost make the argument that as a typical "starving artist" that's when his material was actually listenable. Has he built any business platforms or technologies since, let alone relevant music? No? Then again with another blowhard talking out his ass. Just STFU and continue coming up with more of the mediocrity you've done since, hiring and firing and re-forming bands, and remaining in all other ways irrelevant.
We are no longer Slouching Towards Gomorrah, we are full tilt runaway towards Gomorrah. Is there a way to stop it? I don't know, maybe Trump?
Good for him--I'd always figured him for a leftist but nice to see he's rebelling against the rock star norm. And a presidential candidate lavishing praise on commie dictators should be treated the same as one praising Hitler. It's a sick joke that this is accepted by so many.
I'd always figured him for a leftist but nice to see he's rebelling against the rock star norm.
Right. Like the rock star norm of actually making music that anyone wants to listen to.
Although you could make the argument that he went away at age 27, as per that other rock star norm. At least musically, that is.
Blogger Rhythm and Balls said...
Well, as far as being castigated as a horrible person for looking down the wrong part of someone's body goes, that's an idiotic Christian/Puritan thing. Corgan is probably an Irish Catholic name. Hang-ups!
It's about power, not religion or sex, R&B.
It's about power, not religion or sex, R&B.
Hahahahahahahahahahaaaaghhhahaha. You say that as if they're all separate things. Hahahahahahah.
Reconciliation.
I like this Corgan fellow. He makes a lot of sense. I quickly grew tired of his whiny, nasal singing decades ago, but he is a talented musician and songwriter, and he's right about SJWs, you know.
Blogger Rhythm and Balls said...
It's about power, not religion or sex, R&B.
Hahahahahahahahahahaaaaghhhahaha. You say that as if they're all separate things. Hahahahahahah.
Religion is a system of belief.
Power is the ability to force others to do what you will them to do.
Sex is a physical act.
You may as well say that playing chess, acting in a drama, and calculating the square footage of a room are the same thing. They are involve concepts! They are all things that people do! So they are the same!
Go to your room and think about what you've done, R&B.
I am informed by my daughter that Billy Corgan's music "stinks."
Case closed.
David Begley:
If you were trying to make a joke at the expense of Althouse's anosmia, your conflation of music and smell would be funny.
"Rhythm and Balls":
It is the Lefists - the collectivists - who attempt to control. Those of us who believe in individual rights care as little as possible about private matters. So the SJWs are Part of the long tradition to which you hold.
Birkel
The word "stinks" in that context means fourth rate. It is in the OED.
And did the comedian Gallagher ever sue that band for idea infringement? Kind of an equal protection type of thing. Income inequality.
No one on the left is trying to control you. It would be a waste of time anyway, like "controlling" an ant.
It's Hillary who wants to control you and she's as establishment a Republican as any Goldwater girl is.
"I've never heard of Billy Corgan". And we care about this why?
Something he said makes me think of the people who already accrued their top-50 wealth profiting from a low cap gains/dividend tax regime (Buffett, Gates). Why would they care if income/gains were suddenly taxed at 90%? It would ensure no one could ever catch them in the rankings. They certainly can't spend it all. In other words, not credible. Taxes on increase in wealth need to be low enough that an ambitious young 0-net-worth person can get somewhere in exchange for additional quality efforts.
I'd rather a tax on *wealth* (which we have already at a low level w/ increased money supply via either low rates or money printing). Actually, I'd rather we pick some rules and play by them. Not change course midstream (I've decided nobody should have to pay their student loan debt, says the recently-borrowed-100k graduate).
Sebastian at 9:03am, I ask these questions ("which parts of pop culture that we ignore as a matter of course and good taste are actually worth knowing, if only to keep in touch with the plebs?" &c) fairly often; perhaps AA will address your comment at some point (or perhaps has & I've missed it).
My own motivations are sometimes matters of taste, sure, or education/experience (when someone starts prosing on about a subject I have certain knowledge about & they're obviously wrong three times in the first paragraph, I go on my way), or religion and morality. Personally, am not much interested in the sort of popular music genres often remarked upon by AA in these pages so generally I pass by those posts with a quick skim. But I knew who Billy Corgan is & was interested to read about his opinions, briefly anyway, although I doubt I've heard any of his songs in the last fifteen years.
Haven't listened since high school, but Disarm and 1979 still sound good to me.
"The sexualization (or de-sexualization?) of Christianity would solve half of these problems."
This is about as sensible as the de-financialization of Christianity, where, one could argue, any sort of monetary misbehavior is excluded from the category of sins, just because people don't like feeling guilty about it. I'm sure there is a constituency for such a change. Or the de-auto-destructionization (this isn't German, where I can just make up a word by mashing them together), where self-destructive behavior is also excluded from sin, for the same reasons.
If the religion insists on an omniscient omnipotent personal God, there is nothing that we do or think that can be excluded as an occasion for imperfection, and there is an ethical weight to everything. There is no way to exclude sex from sin. Christianity is a very hard road, by definition, because it is all encompassing and does not resolve doubt and uncertainty. Its up to you not only to worry about your urges vs being good or not, but also to be uncertain about what the good is, and even to worry about your worries. Islam is trivially easy by comparison.
"No one on the left is trying to control you. It would be a waste of time anyway, like "controlling" an ant.'
I am absolutely sure that "the left", defined as you like, is perfectly happy to control how, where, and for how much we obtain energy, for instance. Whatever the Democratic party has done along these lines is quite consistent with every left-wing program, the only issue is that they probably don't go far enough in degree of control to suit the likes of Sanders supporters. To put it in real terms, while Democrats would like electricity to be more expensive, Sanders and co. would like it even more expensive than that.
Rhythm and Balls said...
"And spare me his trite rant on innovation. No tax rate will stop him from making all the unremarkable music he's made since Siamese Dream. IN fact, you could almost make the argument that as a typical "starving artist" that's when his material was actually listenable."
Just STFU and the state will decide what to do with your money. You probably would have just wasted it anyways. Innovation is trite. You can do that without money. You were better without money!
Just because the state has never actually made anything or created anything in the last 50 years don't let that hold you back from going on trite rants R&B.
It's Hillary who wants to control you and she's as establishment a Republican as any Goldwater girl is.
The "No True Scotsman" fallacy!
I Thought told you to go to your room, R&B.
One side wished to repress free speech by calling it hate speech and the other want's to preserve the right for everyone to speak freely.
I don't know which one is which. The TEA party certainly utilized shouting down everyone who disagreed with them when they were protesting Obama Care.
And the Dixie Chicks got death threats serious enough to warrant investigation by the FBI.
I suspect Billy Corgan could come out and say 'I fuck pigs' and no one would care other than his wife and/or girlfriend.
Paco, Birkel, et al:
Jones is a 9/11 truther, a Sandy Hook truther. He's argued that the government makes tornados and that the CIA is responsible for Beyonces' "Lemonade." These are his actual "facts."
So Corgan thinks Jones is "very informed" and "knows facts" and listens to Jones regularly and that's where he gets his own "facts." If you cannot concede that such a worldview is nutbaggery? Surely you are trolling just because you hate "the Left." To be sure , Birkel's suggestion that to dismiss Jones is to be "ahistorical" strikes me as one of the greatest moments of Trolling we've seen on these Boards .
Freder Frederson said...
"I don't know which one is which. The TEA party certainly utilized shouting down everyone who disagreed with them when they were protesting Obama Care."
You are a joke. That is made up out of whole clothe.
That is made up out of whole clothe.
I can provide more examples if you like. But I think you can handle the search yourself. But of course, you don't want to know.
"and the Dixie Chicks got death threats serious enough to warrant investigation by the FBI."
And what did the FBI find out?
R&B - I know hillary is gross - but her party is too. You'll figure it out sooner or later.
I can't find anything authoritative on the web that confirms that the Dixie Chicks "got death threats serious enough to warrant investigation by the FBI."
All reports of the threats seem to come from the Dixie Chicks themselves or are hearsay.
And the Dixie Chicks got death threats serious enough to warrant investigation by the FBI
The Dixie Chicks are dumber than a box of rocks. (and I say this as someone who bought their first three cds)
You are a country music band (easily the most patriotic form of art in the US today), and you go overseas and talk shit about your country and its leader in a time of war?
I haven't volunr=tarily listened to them since, and their careers cratered.
Like I said, dumber than a box of rocks.
"I don't know which one is which. The TEA party certainly utilized shouting down everyone who disagreed with them when they were protesting Obama Care."
If this is the most substantial thing you can come up with, Fredersen, http://www.politico.com/story/2009/07/town-halls-gone-wild-025646, you need to try again.
This is a Democracy. Who do you think works for whom in a democracy?
Just STFU and the state will decide what to do with your money.
Why don't you try actually earning some first. Until then, feel free to fund your own regime-change wars.
You probably would have just wasted it anyways. Innovation is trite. You can do that without money. You were better without money!
Just because the state has never actually made anything or created anything in the last 50 years don't let that hold you back from going on trite rants R&B.
So the person rattling on about "trite rants" obviously doesn't see his previous four sentences as something of a trite rant in itself.
I love it when blind men point out to me all the wonderful things they see.
R&B - I know hillary is gross - but her party is too. You'll figure it out sooner or later.
April - I know Trump is gross - but his party is too. You'll figure it out sooner or later.
Begley and Balls each miss the points.
Begley misses humor.
Balls misses logic, experience and evidence.
Lol.
Anything else, schoolmarm Birkel?
Birkel misses the fact that recess ended. He no longer needs to scold the children, as much as it would bring satisfaction to him to do so.
Birkel
Didn't miss the attempt at humor.
Schoolmarm is a decidedly sexist remark, even for a bigot such as you.
Goodbye, Boring Sore Debate Loser.
I don't know which one is which.
Of course you do.
Having seen better than ever to have wasted my time debating "Rhythm and Balls" I hardly see how I could have lost a debate.
I mock your juvenile understanding.
And some days I feel sorry you will never be a junior.
"As jokes go, Sir Tim Hunt’s brief standup routine about women in science last week must rank as one of the worst acts of academic self-harm in history. As he reveals to the Observer, reaction to his remarks about the alleged lachrymose tendencies of female researchers has virtually finished off the 72-year-old Nobel laureate’s career as a senior scientific adviser. . . . Certainly the speed of the dispatch of Hunt – who won the 2001 Nobel prize in physiology for his work on cell division – from his various academic posts is startling. In many cases this was done without him even being asked for his version of events, he says. The story shows, if nothing else, that the world of science can be every bit as brutal as that of politics." https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jun/13/tim-hunt-hung-out-to-dry-interview-mary-collins?CMP=share_btn_fb [NB: Please try to avoid jiggering the story over the source if the urge sets in.]
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