November 24, 2015

"The Turkish military has reportedly shot down a Russian military aircraft on the border with Syria."

"This is exactly the kind of incident that many have feared since Russia launched its air operations in Syria. The dangers of operating near to the Turkish border have been all too apparent. Turkish planes have already shot down at least one Syrian air force jet and possibly a helicopter as well."

82 comments:

AReasonableMan said...

Am waiting to hear the Putin idolators sing again in praise of that strategic genius Putin. I never tire of that song.

Curious George said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-JA1ffd5Ms

David Begley said...

This was inevitable. And the entire ME disaster is a direct result of the incompetence of Barack and Hillary. Add in Iran with nukes and their incompetency rises to historic levels. Historic, I say.

If America wants things to get worse, go right ahead and elect Hillary.

Coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

Remember the Maine. Those Russkies were humiliating the weak horse Obama's faded pink line in the sand. But the Turks are not into that game. Putin wants to act Byzantine Eastern Empire and save Christians from the Turks who really want to expel the Christians, the Armenians and the Kurds from their old Ottoman Empire's area.

The Tar Baby Obama, he don't say nuthin.

Rick said...

Am waiting to hear the Putin idolators

I'm not really sure why left wing lunatics argue criticism of Obama's handling of Putin means they idolize him, but's strong proof of their inability to reason.

Bob Boyd said...

Hopefully Putin isn't having his "man-period" just now.

Grackle said...

Swell, Putin vs. Erdogan. Time to rethink the Black Sea cruise vacation.

FG

Larry J said...

Russia isn't known for their restrain when it comes to war. They seldom seem to worry much about legal niceties such as rules of engagement and collateral damage. There was a report earlier this week that 75% of American bombing missions return to base with undropped ordinance because of the rules of engagement. Obama and the Pentagon lawyers are unserious people when it comes to battling ISIS.

Robert Cook said...

"And the recent ME disaster is a direct result of the incompetence and malfeasance of Barack and Hillary."

You forgot to include Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice.

Also, I corrected your statement. The catastrophic Pandora's Box we have blown open in the ME is due to incompetence, yes...the incompetence of power-mongering psychopaths who believed it would be an easy matter to waltz in, throw a little "shock and awe" at the primitives there, and our acquisition of new resources and establishment of new areas of hegemonic dominance for the empire would be a done deal. But it is also due to the malfeasance--the criminality--of men and women who think nothing of raining bullets and bombs and death and dismemberment on whole populations in pursuit of plunder, which they portray, falsely, as "self-defense."

Steve Uhr said...

Why shoot it down if you do not have a reasonable basis to believe it is attacking. Just file a complaint with UN or some other international tribunal.

Hagar said...

Turkey has just reminded everybody about the existence of NATO, and perhaps everybody need to get out their copies of the treaty and refresh their memories of exactly what is in that stack of paper.

The Godfather said...

Uh oh.

You don't tug on superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old lone ranger
And you don't mess around with Vlad

tim maguire said...

AReasonableMan said...Am waiting to hear the Putin idolators sing again in praise of that strategic genius Putin. I never tire of that song.

Since they are (literally) on Putin's payroll, I have no doubt you will see them around.

Bob Boyd said...

Let me get this straight....so Turkey...our NATO ally in the war on ISIS...has shot down a jet of Russia.....our newest ally in the war on ISIS.... which jet was in the process of bombing our Syrian rebel allies....who are also allied with allies of ISIS...but who we armed and trained to fight the Syrian Government.....without which we cannot hope to defeat ISIS.....and which we hope will become our ally....but only until they help us defeat ISIS.....after which we promise to help depose them....even though they are fully supported by Russia, our newest ally in the war on ISIS.
Did I get that right?

Fen said...

AReasonableMan: Am waiting to hear the Putin idolators sing again in praise of that strategic genius Putin

One good thing Russia has going for it - they take little bitches like you out back and shoot them in the face.

JAORE said...

Hmmm.... change that headline to "NATO Member Shoots Down Russian Jet" and see how it reads.

Fritz said...

The Godfather said...
Uh oh.

You don't tug on superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old lone ranger
And you don't mess around with Vlad


Why not rhyme wind with Putin?; it works as well as Jim or Slim.

Deirdre Mundy said...

Now we know the reason for the 3-month travel warning.

Because that's how long it will take for this to heat up into WW3, at which point no one will want to risk overseas travel anyway!

There's not a single candidate left in the race who'd I trust as a wartime president. :P

David Begley said...

Here's an idea: Let's put a $25 per bbl tariff on OPEC oil. We are on the verge of North American oil independence. The Arabs can then go back to head chopping. But the Greens won't allow this due to their fantasy about no fossil fuels.

Bobby said...

Bob Boyd,

No, you did not. There are several (perhaps intentional) errors in the chain that you presented.

AReasonableMan said...

Fen said...
One good thing Russia has going for it - they take little bitches like you out back and shoot them in the face.


Putin idolatry - the face of fascism.


TreeJoe said...

Compare and contrast Turkey's response - an appropriate response - to the way we have treated Russian incursions in our territory:

1. Turkey warned it 10 times, it did not retreat, Turkey shot it down.

2. The U.S. warns Russian and Chinese aircraft of sovereignty issues over and over, no response is made, we call up the chain of command, nothing happens.

Putin calls it a stab in the back because he knows his forces were in the wrong - they invaded sovereign airspace of another nation and ignored warnings. Possibly by accident, possibly under orders. Either way, Turkey showed it's not going to tolerate it.

vza said...

I'm with Vlad on this one.

Our NATO "member":

ISIS-Turkey links

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/research-paper-isis-turke_b_6128950.html

holdfast said...

The SU-24 "Fencer" is not really a fighter - it's a tactical bomber, sort of like it's contemporary, the old F-111, which the US retired some years back (odds are most of the Fencer's swing-wing design was stolen from the US TFX program which ultimately resulted in the F-111 (and to some degree, the F-14 Tomcat)). In short, the Fencer is not designed to mix it up with real fighters - it has a gun and can carry short-range heat-seeking air-to-air missiles but it would be easy meat for an F-16, even an older one. One would suspect that going forward the Russians will be providing escorts of Mig-29s or SU-27s, which are not easy meat (the Mig is similar in capability to the F-16, but the Sukhoi is a more capable aircraft, more in the F-15's class).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-24

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-111_Aardvark

Paco Wové said...

As a long-standing Althouse commenter, I now take the opportunity of this global geopolitical crisis to bitch about the things I always bitch about.

mccullough said...

The first time a Russian fighter jet has been shot down since Maverick downed one toward the end of Top Gun

lgv said...

Blogger David Begley said...
This was inevitable. And the entire ME disaster is a direct result of the incompetence of Barack and Hillary.

I disagree. It is not a direct result. The grand scale of degradation of the entire ME has been made worse by the incompetence of Barack and Hillary. Every call from Libya to Egypt to Syria has been wrong, taking things from bad to worse. The current strategy will not achieve any objective anyone from any political point of view might have.

If went with the Bernie Sanders strategy and withdrew from the region and spent all that money on global warming, the results would be same as Obama's strategy. I recall Clinton tossing a couple of cruise missiles after the Cole incident. Pretty sure we wasted a couple of cruise missiles.

There is another alternative to massive amounts of troops on the ground. It would require breaking current US laws and making a lot of countries mad at us. What we are doing now is just theater.

Coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cubanbob said...

What is Obama going to do when Putin raises the ante by having the Turkish airbase destroyed as a lesson to the Turks? For once I would be happy if Obama did his usual dithering, the Turks screwed us many times since Erdogan became president of Turkey and a good smack down of this bastard would be welcome. The Turks want to be Islamist while maintaining the benefits of being part of the West. Now its time to cut them loose.

So what exactly did the Russians do that was so terrible? Cross a 2,000 meter strip of land to attack terrorists that are being enabled by the Turks? There are no good guys in Syria. The so-called good guys we are supporting are as bad if not worse than Assad. What the nimrods in DC haven't figured out is what happens if Assad falls? Is what comes after the same, better or worse than Assad? For a good portion of the Syrian people the answer would be worse so what exactly are our goals in getting rid of Assad? In the meantime lets step aside from this disaster and let the Syrian refugees stay in Turkey and let Putin waste Russian blood and treasure in Syria.

Hagar said...

@Coupe,
This is not Hollywood.
I don't think Putin is ready for WWIII, so I do not think he will shoot back, but no doubt he will be looking for some other way to punish Mr. Erdogan.

n.n said...

The Russian coalition didn't expect the Turks would have an interest to sustain the refugee crisis. Do the Turks or others have an interest to protect the terrorists and American-backed anti-Syrian forces?

Skeptical Voter said...

Fen is wrong about Russki's shooting people in the face. The preferred solution for a Russian "problem person" was a walk down a corridor in the Lubyanka basement which ended with a 9 mm bullet in the back of the head. Other than that, Fen had it right. Russkis deal in direct solutions to problems when they have a chance.

As for the Turkish shootdown of a Russian jet. Tsk Tsk--accidents will happen.

The real problem with the Middle East is that choices offered there are either (A) pretty awful, or (B) much worse. That's been true since the demise of the Ottoman Empire, and it wasn't much better before that.

Hagar said...

If the U.S. "cuts the Turks loose," that will be seen and noted by all members of NATO.

Come to think of it, also by all other nations that have dealings with the U.S. - friendly or hostile.

eric said...

Time to pull my money out of the stock market.

Or start playing it to the downside.

mikee said...

Cubanbob makes a good point. There are no good guys in Syria. Can we keep them killing each other off for another decade or so, or until they are almost all gone?

RonF said...

The Turks told Russia last week that this would happen if their airspace was violated.

Bob Ellison said...

Barack Obama, our pathetic US President, said in a joint press conference just now something about what French President Moo-Lon said.

Hollande, Barry. The man's name is Hollande. Brush up on your French, twerp.

RonF said...

n.n:

The Turks have an interest in seeing the Kurds get knocked down so that they will not attempt to create an independent Kurdistan that would encompass part of Turkey. They've been fighting a Kurdish separatist group for years now. The Turks see ISIS killing Kurds as being in their interest, so they don't want ISIS to stop it. The Turks are not going to help with ISIS unless a) all the Kurds are dead, or b) ISIS tries to cross the Turkish border. So from their viewpoint, the refugee crisis is something they'll put up with as long as they can find a way to manage it and as long as Kurds are getting killed.

RonF said...

"What the nimrods in DC haven't figured out is what happens if Assad falls?"

After the Coalition turned back the invasion of Kuwait, the question arose as to why we didn't just march into Baghdad and bring about regime change right then and there. The answer was "It's not like Thomas Jefferson is waiting there to take over."

Nothing's changed on that score since then....

AReasonableMan said...

It is difficult to overstate how stupid the idolatry of Putin by right wing commentators has been. The guy is a fucking terrible dictator, concerned solely with image and clueless about the fundamentals of running a country. Russia is bleeding to death and this idiot wastes treasure and prestige fighting in the middle east. It doesn't matter what he does at the point, he has already lost. He can only spend more treasure or lose more prestige. The contrast with Obama is striking. Obama inherited a country whose economy had been seriously damaged by wanton mismanagement. Though the work of a lot of people the country has recovered its preeminent position in the west and also significantly strengthened its position versus China. Sensibly, Obama has wasted very little of our capital on the middle east. Yet a class of dickwads still idolize Putin. It is not just disgusting, it is moronic.

Hagar said...

In just 14 months another president and staff are going to have to pick up the pieces after this administration leaves office.
Our enemies will still be our enemies, and our friends will wonder if we can be trusted.
At least I hope that they will still be wondering.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

The Bamster just said he's ready to open a can of climate change whoop-ass on ISIS. These clowns are toast!

cubanbob said...

Hagar said...
@Coupe,
This is not Hollywood.
I don't think Putin is ready for WWIII, so I do not think he will shoot back, but no doubt he will be looking for some other way to punish Mr. Erdogan.

11/24/15, 11:21 AM'

Is Europe and NATO-USA going to go to war with Russia over Turkey? While not a non-zero possibility I would sooner insure my house against a meteor strike than bet in favor of a war with Russia over an Islamist ruled Turkey.

As for cutting Turkey off, it would be noticed by friend and foe but it appears you might be drawing the wrong conclusion; for once it just might be seen as you don't get to crap on us and expect us to save your hide. Erdogan is a fool, he is playing a game with Putin he can't win. Again, the Russians take out the Turkish airbase. What are we going to do? What is NATO and the EU going to do? The Russians decide the Kurd's in Iraq need arming (and air cover) what do the Turks do? What do we do? What is NATO and the EU going to do? Best we back out of this mess, let the Turks get their medicine and let them learn their lesson well and let the Russians spend their blood and treasure in Syria putting in or keeping a half sane dictator in charge they can control who in turned can be pressured by us to be relatively docile. Bush manged to do that with Ghadaffi until Obama and Clinton were foolish enough to depose him. Let Putin do what we don't want to do but needs to be done in Syria. Whats the worse that could happen? The even worse gang takes over later than sooner? In the meantime by not allowing the Syrian refugees to leave Turkey for the West will put enormous pressure on Turkey to be helpful in tamping down the crazy in Syria instead of adding to it.

The Cracker Emcee said...

"Blogger tim maguire said...
AReasonableMan said...Am waiting to hear the Putin idolators sing again in praise of that strategic genius Putin. I never tire of that song.

Since they are (literally) on Putin's payroll, I have no doubt you will see them around."

Putin has Althouse commenters on his payroll?

Instapundit links to a great article about the paranois strain in Leftism:
http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/11/23/the-derangement-of-the-british-left/

cubanbob said...

RonF said...
n.n:

The Turks have an interest in seeing the Kurds get knocked down so that they will not attempt to create an independent Kurdistan that would encompass part of Turkey. They've been fighting a Kurdish separatist group for years now. The Turks see ISIS killing Kurds as being in their interest, so they don't want ISIS to stop it. The Turks are not going to help with ISIS unless a) all the Kurds are dead, or b) ISIS tries to cross the Turkish border. So from their viewpoint, the refugee crisis is something they'll put up with as long as they can find a way to manage it and as long as Kurds are getting killed.

11/24/15, 11:54 AM
Blogger RonF said...
"What the nimrods in DC haven't figured out is what happens if Assad falls?"

After the Coalition turned back the invasion of Kuwait, the question arose as to why we didn't just march into Baghdad and bring about regime change right then and there. The answer was "It's not like Thomas Jefferson is waiting there to take over."

Nothing's changed on that score since then....

11/24/15, 11:57 AM"

As for your first point, the Turks have just given an incentive to the Russians for a reason to arm the Kurd's. Its not like the Kurd's have a less legitimate ground for statehood the Palestinians.The Russians are quite capable of exploiting that. As for your second point, the no blood for oil crowd would have had none of that back in 1991 never mind the Allied coalition. And while Assad is a monster he isn't his father and he isn't a Saddam. He isn't looking to overtly conquer his neighbors like Saddam and is still rather scrupulous in not overtly provoking Israel unlike Saddam. So what do you think will happen if and when Assad falls? I would say the safe bet is an ISIS type regime takes control and another internal and even bloodier war takes place as all parties fight it out to the death.

Jack Wayne said...

ARM with the typical left-wing meme than has nothing to do with reality. Bashing Obama by pointing out how Putin is smarter than Obama is not the same as praising Putin. But keep spewing out the democrat party line.

So, ARM, as the bombers warm up why not tell us how happy you are that Obama is the "most powerful man in the world".

traditionalguy said...

The Turks sudden attack on the Russian Airforce for an invented reason of being across the airspace a half mile for a few seconds, itf that, followed by the Turks killing the parachuting pilots and then killing the crew of a Russian Airsea Rescue helo coming to pick up their downed pilots is not accidental.

It is a blocking move to keep Russia and the Kurds from working together against Iran and Obama's alliance that needs ISIL alive and well.

The French are the most at fault here for making this happen by announcing their President is seeking to form a common arrangement with Putin and Obama to work with France in its fight against ISIL.

Gusty Winds said...

I didn't know Turkey could fly.

Gusty Winds said...

It is difficult to overstate how stupid the idolatry of Putin by right wing commentators has been.

I don't think anybody wanted to snuggle up to Stalin during WWII but the alternative in the short term was much worse. Churchill knew the Soviets were going to be a problem post-war, but he had no choice to side with him until the Axis Powers were defeated.

I don't think anybody is canonizing Putin. But at the moment he is not threatening mass murder in the great cities of Western Civilization.

Drago said...

AReasonableMan: "It is difficult to overstate how stupid the idolatry of Putin by right wing commentators has been."

It is even more difficult to overstate how non-existent the idolatry of Putin by right wing commentators has been.

But we get it.

All of that Obambi flexibility for his boyfriend in the Kremlin has made you uncomfortable. You could address obambi's moronic and simple-minded foreign policy which has bolstered his Kremlin boyfriends position in the middle east, or, as with all leftists, when failure of leftist policy becomes obvious to all you could do everything you can to try and change the subject.

Well. We see which path you have taken.

And it's unfortunate that you have so little to work with here which results in you simply beclowning yourself.

It's impossible not to notice the grand pronouncements of all this "right wing idolatry" of Putin, yet you seem incapable of posting even a link or two which demonstrates this.

And you can't.

So you won't.

So spin little top, spin.

Drago said...

The Cracker Emcee link quite a few interesting tidbits regarding our western lefty pals.

Here's one:

"More recently, Dennis MacShane, who served as Blair’s Minister for Europe, has referred to Corbyn as the “MP for Lost or Dubious Causes.” A closer inspection of some of those “lost or dubious causes”, however, reveals a man more sinister than the Marx-reading Mr. Bean figure many perceive. There is not a single anti-Western thug or terrorist for whom Corbyn hasn’t had kind words. Welcoming members of Hizballah to Parliament, he referred to them as “friends.” Osama bin Laden’s death was a “tragedy upon a tragedy”, Corbyn said, on Iranian-funded Press TV no less. Russia’s Ambassador to the Court of St. James, perhaps having watched some of Corbyn’s countless appearances on the Kremlin-funded Russia Today network (whose coverage Corbyn has praised as “more objective” than Western outlets), called the Labour MP’s victory the most “radical breakthrough in British politics of the last 30 years.”

Let's repeat that last line:

"James, perhaps having watched some of Corbyn’s countless appearances on the Kremlin-funded Russia Today network (whose coverage Corbyn has praised as “more objective” than Western outlets), called the Labour MP’s victory the most “radical breakthrough in British politics of the last 30 years.”

Another leftist who worships at the altar of Putin. And why wouldn't he? Putin is a communist at heart.

It must be difficult for ARM to be forced to write things that are the exact opposite of how ARM really feels towards Putin. But we understand. The lefties know they have to maintain the fiction that they now view with great disfavor their soul-mates in the Kremlin. For domestic political purposes.

AReasonableMan said...

ack Wayne said...
pointing out how Putin is smarter than Obama


Give some examples. Not delusionary right wing talking points but realpolitik examples, practical material advantages that Putin has gained taking account of the costs.

It is not that Obama is playing multi-dimensional chess, it is that he at least understand the rules, unlike Putin. Putin is the starry-eyed idealist, chasing the rainbow of a greater Russia when the reality is that he will be lucky to hang on to everything he currently controls. Obama is the hard-ass. Obama doesn't waste much capital chasing rainbows in the middle east or anywhere else. Not our problem.

Drago said...

ARMeltdown: "Obama is the hard-ass. Obama doesn't waste much capital chasing rainbows in the middle east or anywhere else. Not our problem."

Yes, after obambi's performance in Libya, Syria and Iraq, ARMeltdown actually wrote that.

Obama is such a "hard ass" he had the intel assessment of ISIS cooked and refused to bomb their out-in-the-open supply lines.

Don't even get started on li'l "hard ass's" Syrian "red line".

Which he said.

Then magically didn't say.

Cuz he said so.

"hard ass"

Expect that the more obambi fails, the more insane the rhetoric in support of Putin's would be boyfriend will grow from our resident trained seals.

Theranter said...

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260900/handy-guide-progressives-choosing-between-russia-daniel-greenfield

Coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bobby said...

Fen,

"One good thing Russia has going for it - they take little bitches like you out back and shoot them in the face."

Yes, because people should be shot in the face for peacefully advocating on a blog for policies or expressing support for an ideology with which we don't personally agree. That's the kind of great that America should strive to be.

Come on, people- keep our differences of opinion in perspective here.

Brando said...

That whole thing is such a complicated mess I'm sure this won't be the last such incident. Turkey's our NATO ally, they're anti-ISIS but also anti-Assad, but more anti-Kurd than anything, while Assad is anti-ISIS but also anti-non-ISIS-rebels who we for some reason think are the good guys at least for now, and Iraq of course has no control over their zone in all of this, while Russia is anti-ISIS but also pro-Assad. Foreign policy is apparently a lot harder than Obama thought it would be, but I'm sure Hillary will put the Middle East down as another of her success stories.

David said...

Putin is thinking "never let a good crisis go to waste."

Meanwhile Obama is making snarky statements. Understandable, since that is about all he has left.

One article says the Turks warned the pilot 17 times. That same article says the plane was in Turkish airspace for only 17 seconds. That's one fast talking Turk warning.

David said...

AReasonableMan said...
Am waiting to hear the Putin idolators sing again in praise of that strategic genius Putin. I never tire of that song.


You think having a plane shot down undermines Putin's strategy? Actually it plays right into his hands. Just watch what he does with this.

Hagar said...

Coupe and cubanbob,
NATO stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and the United States created it and most definitely is a member. Accepting Turkey as an additional member may have been a mistake - you can argue that - but we made it, and are stuck with it. Treaties can be reneged upon, that has been done, but that also has consequences that might need to be considered.

Gusty Winds said...

It is not that Obama is playing multi-dimensional chess, it is that he at least understand the rules, unlike Putin.

Obama chooses to bring a knife to a gun fight. This is what the American people who voted for Obama wanted. They wanted to disengage from the middle east, deny there was a 'war on terror', lead from behind, and let others take on the fight. And that is exactly what is happening.

You just have to be able to put up with pictures of crucifixions and beheadings on the Daily Mail to stomach it. But once we got mass shootings at a rock concert in Paris, that's a little too much for the Daily Mail reader.

Everyone was just dumb enough to think that young Arab men might actually stay home and fight, but instead we got Putin. Hillary! thought the Arab Spring would smell like Irish Spring. Both the right and the left are guilty of this miscalculation.

Part of me feels like "fuck'em all". When Bush lead, the world bitched and moaned; especially the snooty left wing Europeans. Now they Bitch because Obama won't "lead" while the French Socialist President has declared war, and you can't even go out for a sandwich in Brussels. Dammed if we do or don't.

I just feel like there are no rules, and there is no answer.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Putin is scared to death to play the hashtag card; Obama shows no hesitation with that.

Gusty Winds said...

Let's just be thankful the Swedish Bikini Team was an American advertising invention or they'd be wearing burkas in about 10 years.

Anonymous said...

Gee, sounds like Turkey is actually trying to fight the Syrian Gov't, as opposed to teh Russians, who only want to fight those opposed to teh Syrian govt.

Good for Turkey.

cubanbob said...

AReasonableMan said...
ack Wayne said...
pointing out how Putin is smarter than Obama

Give some examples. Not delusionary right wing talking points but realpolitik examples, practical material advantages that Putin has gained taking account of the costs.

It is not that Obama is playing multi-dimensional chess, it is that he at least understand the rules, unlike Putin. Putin is the starry-eyed idealist, chasing the rainbow of a greater Russia when the reality is that he will be lucky to hang on to everything he currently controls. Obama is the hard-ass. Obama doesn't waste much capital chasing rainbows in the middle east or anywhere else. Not our problem.

11/24/15, 1:40 PM"

Obama will be gone in fourteen months, Putin won't be. No one asked Obama to make it our problem but that hasn't stopped him from doing so when he had no need to do so. Putin isn't an idealist, he is a KGB man. He doesn't have much in the ways of morals but he no doubt has a much clearer and less ideological world view than Obama (from a despotic Russian perspective). So tell us O Wise One, when Putin takes a shot at the Turks what is Obama going to do besides making some pissy little speech? You asked what has Putin gained so far? He has been successful by his standards in the Ukraine.He has gotten the US to back away from giving the Poles an anti-missile defense system. He has shown the Russians can be counted on by supporting Assad and by inference those who ally with them.He has gotten sweet arms deals from the Iranians to be paid for with US frozen funds. He has gotten the Iranians to kill a bunch of Sunni jihadi's that are fungible to spreading terrorism to his Sunni provinces and near abroad and not make trouble for him. He has played Obama rather well with respects to the Iranians, all lessons not lost on the Arab world leaders. So far the only thing that has hurt him is the low oil prices and Obama has basically had nothing to do with that. Or rather Obama's economic policies haven't done anything to grow the economy which in turn has done nothing to help the global economy and hence a lessened demand for oil coupled with a Saudi oil price war. Their is a lot of delusion but it isn't on the right.

AReasonableMan said...

Gusty Winds said...
I just feel like there are no rules, and there is no answer.


If you don't understand the market park your capital in a safe place. Clearly Bush and Cheney didn't understand the market. Obama doesn't have pat answers either but he hasn't spent two trillion dollars figuring that out.

cubanbob said...

Hagar said...
Coupe and cubanbob,
NATO stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and the United States created it and most definitely is a member. Accepting Turkey as an additional member may have been a mistake - you can argue that - but we made it, and are stuck with it. Treaties can be reneged upon, that has been done, but that also has consequences that might need to be considered.

11/24/15, 2:23 PM"

Yes on your point but you overlooked a few minor details: the Turkey that joined NATO was different Turkey, not the Islamacist state it has become and is continuing to deepen under Erdogan and the Turks are the ones who reneged on the deal to begin with going back to 2003 if not before. The Turks by attacking the Kurds and otherwise hindering them from beating ISIS are acting against NATO's interest. The Turks need to consider the consequences of their reneging their deal with NATO and the Russians might well be the ones to administer the beating that will focus their minds on the errors of their ways.

Hagar said...

The Turks do not like anyone on their southern border - not the Kurds, not the Iranians, not the Shia Iraqi, not the Alawites - but most of all they do not like the Russians appearing there too.

AReasonableMan said...

cubanbob said...
So far the only thing that has hurt him is the low oil prices


The energy sector is the only thing that keeps the Russian economy vaguely afloat.

Putin pisses off the Sunnis by allying with the Shia and Alawites and the Sunnis fuck him on oil, the one thing his miserable country has going for it economically. Pure strategic genius. Why couldn't I see what a genius this man truly is.

cubanbob said...

Hagar said...
The Turks do not like anyone on their southern border - not the Kurds, not the Iranians, not the Shia Iraqi, not the Alawites - but most of all they do not like the Russians appearing there too.

11/24/15, 3:28 PM"

Then Erdogan shouldn't have mucked things up to the point of pushing the Russians to get in.
But now that they are in he better realize he doesn't have a better hand than Putin. So it would be wise for him to stop antagonizing the Russians because NATO isn't going to go to war with Russia over Turkey especially for an Islamacist Turkey. And Erdogan isn't going to raise the Ottoman Empire from the grave. The Russians also have a thing about their borders as well. I'm no fan of Putin but I also see him see him for what he is, a KGB man and Russian chauvinist,nationalist and fascist who is exploiting circumstances under the given circumstances from that perspective. While he isn't Stalin he isn't one the Turks should antagonize especially if you are hoping Obama is going to cover your back.

cubanbob said...

AReasonableMan said...
cubanbob said...
So far the only thing that has hurt him is the low oil prices

The energy sector is the only thing that keeps the Russian economy vaguely afloat.

Putin pisses off the Sunnis by allying with the Shia and Alawites and the Sunnis fuck him on oil, the one thing his miserable country has going for it economically. Pure strategic genius. Why couldn't I see what a genius this man truly is.


11/24/15, 3:50 PM"

The Russians can last longer in this bad oil market longer than the Saudi's. And Obama will be gone in 14 months and some Republican will be elected and the irony of that is the economy of the US and then of the rest world will recover along with oil prices. Putin isn't a genius, he is simply smarter than your average progressive Democrat. As for pissing of the Sunni's all he cares about is that they stay calm and docile and if not that then dead is fine by him. Speaking of allying with the Shia just what do you think Obama just did with the Iranians? A real genius that Obama. Too bad no one else can see his brilliance but you and a select few progressives.

Coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AReasonableMan said...

ubanbob said...
The Russians can last longer in this bad oil market longer than the Saudi's.


Bullshit. The Saudis are the lowest extraction cost suppliers.


As for pissing of the Sunni's all he cares about is that they stay calm and docile

You mean the millions of muslims living inside Russia? The ones who have killed hundreds of Russians. Those guys?


Speaking of allying with the Shia just what do you think Obama just did with the Iranians? A real genius that Obama.

Remind me again how much of the US economy depends on exporting oil. Ooh, none of it, you say. Yes low oil prices will really hurt us.

Putin is a strategic genius. Russia is a powerful country with a vibrant future ahead. Keep telling yourself those lies if it makes you feel better. But, Putin is doing something, you say. Yes, digging a bigger and bigger hole, just like Bush and Cheney.

Paco Wové said...

"The Russians can last longer in this bad oil market longer than the Saudi's."

That statement raised my eyebrows, but it turns out that per-country breakeven cost estimates vary quite a bit:

http://www.businessinsider.com/break-even-oil-prices-for-all-the-major-producers-in-the-world-2015-7

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Oil-Wars-Why-OPEC-Will-Win.html

http://knoema.com/vyronoe/cost-of-oil-production-by-country

Not sure whom to believe on this.

Drago said...

Did ARMeltdown ever bother to link a single example of a republican\conservative who has stated flatly that Putin is a strategic genius vs simply noting that obambi is Putins little plaything?

I would venture he has not.

Hyphenated American said...

"It is difficult to overstate how stupid the idolatry of Putin by right wing commentators has been. The guy is a fucking terrible dictator, concerned solely with image and clueless about the fundamentals of running a country. Russia is bleeding to death and this idiot wastes treasure and prestige fighting in the middle east. It doesn't matter what he does at the point, he has already lost. He can only spend more treasure or lose more prestige. "

This describes Obama to a t - except he is not a dictator yet. US economy sees the slowest recovery in the post-war history. Obama accumulated more debt than all other presidents combined. US prestige abroad is non-existent. Obama wasted trillions of dollars on handouts, almost destroyed our medical system with Obamacare. When he came into office, Middle East was mostly peaceful, Iraq free of terrorism. Today, most of Iraq is controlled by ISIS, as well as Syria and Libya. No country listens to what Obama says anymore. US allies are in distress, US enemies are celebrating.

Hyphenated American said...

Obama: What a “powerful rebuke” it will be to ISIS to hold a climate-change summit in Paris.

Obama: "My definition of leadership would be leading on climate change, an international accord that potentially we’ll get in Paris,”

Discuss.

Hyphenated American said...

"Putin is a strategic genius. Russia is a powerful country with a vibrant future ahead. "

Putin is tactically very smart. This is how he rose from a nobody to the dictator of Russia. Unlike Obama, there was no "affirmative action" for him. He was not a "community organizer" either.

Some people forget that Putin is a dictator of a country with 1/2.5 of US population and 10% of US economy. He is corrupt and he does not make Russia stronger - but same is true for Obama. I have serious doubts that Obama, if he was a Russian president in 2000, would have achieved more than Putin or that he would have been less corrupt and dictatorial. I am also not 100% sure that Putin would have been a much worse president of USA than Obama.

Both of these guys are corrupt and believe in failed ideology. But Putin is smarter than Obama.

Drago said...

Like everyone else, I am "impressed" with the sheer volume of "evidence" ARMeltdown has marshalled in support of his assertion.

Truly "garage-lke"

AReasonableMan said...

Hyphenated American said...
almost destroyed our medical system with Obamacare.


Based on this statement you have no idea what Obamacare actually does, making it impossible for you to judge its effects.

Rusty said...

AReasonableMan said...
Hyphenated American said...
almost destroyed our medical system with Obamacare.

Based on this statement you have no idea what Obamacare actually does, making it impossible for you to judge its effects.



Here's one of the effects that is going to prove troubling.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2015/11/19/unitedhealth-group-dogged-by-obamacare-may-leave-exchanges-by-2017/