Althouse: "Imagine if I told you to give me your keys. And you can no longer drive, starting right now."

November 9, 2015

"Imagine if I told you to give me your keys. And you can no longer drive, starting right now."

"I mean, what would you do? It's totally unrealistic that we think that that's an OK thing to do to older people."

35 comments:

tim maguire said...: Better we wait until they crash and kill themselves or someone else. Then take their keys away.

Tag: future crime.; 11/9/15, 9:08 AM
Scott said...: When my Dad started to go senile, our family had to do a lot of arm twisting to get him to relinquish the car keys and set up house in an assisted living facility.

I heard one old lady on the radio explain that she enjoyed living in her apartment in Manhattan because it's no problem to go to where she needs to go with taxis, and that her groceries and laundry get delivered to the doorman.; 11/9/15, 9:17 AM
Scott said...: The thing that convinced Dad to give up the keys was an objective driving assessment. Dad failed it twice. That convinced him -- enough anyway, he still wasn't happy about it.; 11/9/15, 9:26 AM
MadisonMan said...: Dad stopped driving when he was ready. Before he stopped driving, he had stopped making left turns. I'm grateful he never hit anyone. In his state of residence, people over 90 -- I think that's the age cut-off -- lose their license permanently if they're in an accident. At least that's what Dad told me.

He has someone who comes in once a week and will drive him wherever he needs to go. His meals are all provided in the Facility he's living in, so there's little reason to go out.; 11/9/15, 9:28 AM
The Bear said...: My Grandma ONLY finally handed over the keys after her second collision turning left in the face of on-coming traffic.; 11/9/15, 9:29 AM
traditionalguy said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 11/9/15, 9:29 AM
traditionalguy said...: My dad at age 81 pulled out in front of an oncoming car at an intersection, he had taken thousands of times. He insisted the car with the right of way was speeding. Role playing never gets old.; 11/9/15, 9:29 AM
TreeJoe said...: That argument is senile. The concept of earning the privilege of driving as a "once in a lifetime" testing event is unrealistic IMHO. It should be semi-annual tests between 18-24, every 10 years between 25-55, and every 5 years thereafter until 80 - when it's back to semi-annually. And the re-certifications can be much more streamlined, because you aren't re-issuing a license - you are just re-confirming the current license is valid.

You lose your license immediately for all sorts of things in life - loss of eyesight, DUI, seizure disorder, etc.

If I don't want to lose my license when I'm older, I should work hard on being a damn good driver.; 11/9/15, 9:31 AM
traditionalguy said...: Let all motorcycle enthusiasts take heed. If the old folks cannot see a big sedan coming , the sure won't be seeing you, and then neither will we.; 11/9/15, 9:32 AM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: Nobody over 70 should be driving, or maybe over 65. Old people are assholes, obsessed with car culture and their "freedom", and they don't care whom they maim or kill.; 11/9/15, 9:42 AM
madAsHell said...: My uncle will be 101 in February, 2016. He's still driving. He's still pretty sharp.

My 90 year old mother is starting to concern me. Her confidence is waning, and she complains about her eyes not being sharp. I don't know how that can be........because the doctor keeps sticking needles in her eyes!!; 11/9/15, 9:51 AM
Heartless Aztec said...: Took the keys and drivers license from my 84 year old mom last year as she lay in a hospital bed after pulling out in front of another car doing 50mph and being launched through the wind shield because she hadn't put her seatbelt on. Luckily no one was killed. She fought tooth and nail to keep driving and to this day blames the other driver though she was ticketed. At age 80 every driver should have to retest the driving portion of the driver's license test if simply for the safety of the rest of us.; 11/9/15, 9:51 AM
lgv said...: A re-test is not unreasonable. I recall my grandparents discussing it with some of their friends when I was a child. They thought it was ridiculous to be forced into taking the driving test again. I don't think it is. The test itself is not that difficult. If it can't be passed, then the person shouldn't be driving. The SCOTUS has not yet declared driving a constitutional right. Until then, it's fair game for repeat testing.

I remember being in the passenger side when my grandmother test drove the last vehicle my grandparents ever owned. I was petrified the whole time. She gradually quit driving voluntarily. It was a good thing.

Autonomous cars may get here in time for me. In the meantime, there's Uber.; 11/9/15, 9:56 AM
Todd said...: It is a difficult issue as for many older adults, driving [just like with very young adults] is freedom, it is Independence and it is [for them] something they have done long enough that it can be part of their identity. There comes a time though when they are not physically or mentally able to drive any longer and for the safety of themselves and others, should no longer drive. When my father and my father-in-law both reached that point, it was a struggle. Neither thought they had problems but they did and we made the right choice in pushing the issue. Both were still quite active but not able to drive. I already dread that day for myself and hope [and believe] it is still a long way off.; 11/9/15, 9:58 AM
Michael K said...: " they don't care whom they maim or kill."

You, for example.; 11/9/15, 10:01 AM
YoungHegelian said...: My brother & I were spared the ordeal of getting the car keys from my then 86 (now 88) year old mother by her developing arthritis in her knees. She, by her own admission, just couldn't work the gas & brake pedals any more. Unfortunately, she can barely walk anymore, either.

The last few years she drove, we'd check out her skills by following behind her in another car. She actually did fairly well. Slow as molasses, but okay.; 11/9/15, 10:15 AM
Skeptical Voter said...: Didn't have the conversation about taking away the car keys. Did have the conversation about being appointed conservator of his estate with my father.

The conversations are tough, but necessary. It's a part of life for the oldest son in a family. Get used to it Bunkie, because if you haven't had the conversation(s) you will. And some day your son or daughter will come for you. It's part of the cycle of life and love in a family.; 11/9/15, 10:29 AM
JSD said...: Getting an old person to give up the keys is the easy part. Dealing with their needs as they go through the end-of–life stage is when the real challenges start. A lot of people are starting to live well on into their 90's. Most family's are not prepared for it.; 11/9/15, 10:29 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: One of the hardest things that my father ever had to do was to take the keys away from his mother, who had started driving over hedges and down the wrong side of the street. She was in her mid 70s, and it was devastating to her. He is nearly 20 years older now, and still has a license. But, maybe remembering what happened with his mother, seems fine with one of my brothers taking over more and more of the driving. By now, that brother does most of my father's driving. It has been relatively painless, compared to what we expected.

My other grandmother was almost as problematic. Her (younger) husband insisted that she keeps in practice driving, so insisted that she do some of the driving on the way to and from Florida every year. She was still driving around their small town at 90 when she had the stroke that signaled the end of her life. Almost blind as a bat, but had routes through town to get to church, etc, without getting on the major roads. Y ge

Already worried myself, in my mid 60s. Making things worse, the person I would normally expect to help out as I age, my partner, hasn't been able to drive much for much of the last decade. I do the driving for both of us. Every once in awhile I have something happen that forces me to realize that I may have to give up the keys earlier than I would like. More than actually losing the keys to our vehicles, it is failing in my responsibility to her that bothers me. And I only have the one kid, instead of my father's four, and they are in grad school right now, just embarking on a career, and little knowledge of where they may get end up. My partner is in similar shape, except her kids already have young children. It is going to be worse for my generation. Probably much worse.; 11/9/15, 11:04 AM
Gahrie said...: Self driving cars will make this moot in twenty years.; 11/9/15, 11:13 AM
MikeR said...: We're dealing with this now with my 80-yo mother, who has apparently had four accidents in a few months. But she just took a driving assessment and did fine. So we'll see. I can well understand how devastating that loss of freedom would be.; 11/9/15, 11:22 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Uber for Oldsters, it's a business opportunity, buy the minivans (w/chair lifts), get on it!; 11/9/15, 11:46 AM
JSD said...: There’s no future Google app to solve elderly transportation problems. There’s just opportunities for more problems. Grandpa gets in the Google car and drives off to some forgotten appointment from 40 years ago. He runs out of gas and you end up driving to fucking Houston (or someplace) and try to find him. I can already see this happening.; 11/9/15, 11:47 AM
sean said...: Wow, I guess that must be moving to some people. For myself, I don't much like driving and don't do it very often. I'd be happy to give it up entirely.; 11/9/15, 12:27 PM
Etienne said...: Stated another way, why should the safety of the public count, where it affects the life of one individual so greatly?

I have my answer, but I realize that safety is sometimes a heavy weight on freedom. If I only killed myself it would not matter much.; 11/9/15, 12:51 PM
the gold digger said...: My mom, who lived two days from my grandmother, volunteered, as the person who had the least day to day contact with my grandmother, to be the one taking the keys from her after my grandma had a mild fender bender. This was right after that guy had plowed into the Pike Place market.

My grandma lived for four years after that. Every time I saw her, my sweet, never lost her temper with me grandma would tell me how mad she was at my mother - even while she was practically immobile in the old folks' home.; 11/9/15, 1:15 PM
OGWiseman said...: As a 32-year-old man who lives in Los Angeles and has voluntarily decided to do without a car, I don't consider this a tragic problem. I almost get killed on my bike a few times a month by ancient people who should not be driving. All I want is for "driving retirement" to be extended to waaaaaay more people. There should be a much, much more serious test before we allow people to drive, including simulating adverse conditions.; 11/9/15, 1:21 PM
Larry J said...: Just about everyone faces this issue sooner or later, first for their parents and then for themselves. My father died young so he was never an issue. My mother was still driving at 85 but was always happy to let others drive whenever possible. My sister and I were discussing how much longer Mom would be able to drive and how we'd handle the issue. She died before it became an issue.

There's an old joke that goes, "I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my Grandfather, and not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."

Don't be that guy.; 11/9/15, 1:21 PM
JCC said...: My wife and I had to ground all three of our surviving parents, being the Only Children Remaining in Town. One was easy, one not too bad, all things considered, and one was brutal. My 93 year old mother still introduces me as "This is my 2nd son. He took my car away from me."
We bought her a new Lexus near the end, and what she didn't know was that the body shop at the dealer called us every time she had it repaired - about once every 60 days - and checked to see if their quality control was up to par.
Dealer: "Hi, Obnoxious Lexus calling, just wanted to be sure all the repairs were satisfactory."
Us: "Uh, what did you do again?"
Dealer: "Put the front end back on again." or fixed the door, or the fender, whatever....
Us: "Oh, yeah, right"
So we were able to keep track of Mom's driving skills, or lack thereof.
I think the straw/camel was one day on the interstate, while talking to my wife on the cell, I saw a blur coming up behind and moved over, telling my wife some fool was speeding like a maniac in traffic, and realized that streak was Mom, with several of her 80+ friends, doing something north of 85 MPH, heading for lunch and shopping. She had personalized license plates, that and the barely visible cotton-heads a dead giveaway. But she was clearly beyond safe driving, at least as much for loss of judgement as for her mechanical skills, like judging distance and backing skills. With the other two, it was purely mechanical, eyesight and loss of ability to reach and engage the brakes mostly, although an inability to turn the head and look backwards seem to be pretty universal too. But Mom had regressed and turned into an irresponsible teenager, driving like a wild person.

Good to know we have this to look forward to. The only consolation seems to be we won't be in a position to recognize it and will be happy in our oblivious senility.; 11/9/15, 2:00 PM
Michael said...: Uber; 11/9/15, 3:21 PM
Balfegor said...: Yes, Uber is the solution in the US. My grandmother in Seoul has a driver to take her where she needs to go in the city, but that's not cost effective in the US. We're a low-trust society in general too, so I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable hiring a permanent chauffeur for my grandparents in the US without it being mediated heavily through technology the way Uber is.

What Uber ought to do is set it up so that the elderly can call Uber cars on their childrens' accounts, and the children can track where they're going, have a direct line to the driver if needed, etc. Particularly good in that Uber is cashless, so no risk of an unscrupulous cabbie scamming the elderly out of their cash. Perhaps Uber has already set something like this up.; 11/9/15, 8:22 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: Sound perspective and displayed analysis, but only if the elderly can and do booze it up as their kin and buddies' freedom and liberty died in the muck for. Appreciating the sacrifices of others is Godly and essential to forwarding this or any generations Bob Marley triumphant love, a love facing and having faced old pirates with centuries of knowledge on how to rob using the merchant ships.

The act of procuring for oneself alcohol adds decades of productive years to any enlightened life, and you can hardly do that without wheels, although if wheels of fire rolling down the road, I will tell you now and forever: be ware.

But the teetotallers?

Don't just take their license, burn it on their lawn for them as an example of your unrepressed feelings.; 11/10/15, 4:59 AM
Guildofcannonballs said...: "We're a low-trust society in general too, so I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable hiring a permanent chauffeur for my grandparents in the US without it being mediated heavily through technology the way Uber is."

In general, we are the highest trusting society thought's limits have, even though extrapolated, considered.

Look at your faith in Uber's tech.

Makes sense to you, so you trust it.

But, you would of course admit, you don't know jack squat about Uber's tech and why you trust it, beyond what Uber has marketed for you to trust as is their whim and want.

Shouldn't the most frightening thing for you be thinking "I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable hiring," as if your feelings of comfort preclude evil or data's opportunity of informed consenting-firstly-to-logic multitudes of factors when choosing hiring for results expected, not emotions current or otherwise, with a chance to be justified hindsightly?; 11/10/15, 5:20 AM
Guildofcannonballs said...: I am going to blasphemize, I hope on God's side.

If the concept of God were only a fiction of man, yet that fiction prevented Al Gore from ruling the entire Earth with over a trillion American dollars given to him annually to "spread the word" and raise awareness and jail the bad from killing Earth, and whatnot, would that alone justify the existence of man's concept of God even if God thereafter announced to all He didn't exist previously but was created through this concept?

Authority fallacies are all Global Warming Climate Change Weatherfear Predators have, so using The Authority of authority fallacies aptly gains more with less.; 11/10/15, 5:30 AM
Balfegor said...: Re: Guildofcannonballs:

In general, we are the highest trusting society thought's limits have, even though extrapolated, considered.

When I say "low trust society," I mean something very specific -- that in America we place a great deal more reliance on abstract institutions (whether government or corporate) than we do on individual people we meet on the street.

Just as a small illustration, one thing that always surprises me (pleasantly) in Tokyo, is the extraordinary degree of trust that is evident in ordinary interactions. People feel comfortable leaving their $800 smartphone on an outdoor café table while they turn their back and go in to order. You'd never do that in a place like New York or Washington DC -- it would be a kind of attractive nuisance to thieves, and you have to operate, in our cities, as though any random person might be a thief. Here's another -- I regularly see men walking around in Tokyo with giant long wallets hanging very visibly out of their back pockets. If you were a pickpocket, Tokyo would be like heaven. Again, that's something you'd have to be a fool to do in a US city. Or perhaps not! It's a question of "trust" not a question of reality -- perhaps we'd be just as safe in the US. But the assumption I see reflected around me every day here in the US is that we would not.

In the US, interactions with strangers (to whom one has no social ties) are heavily, heavily mediated through abstract organisations. In the case of Uber, for example, one level of mediation and assurance is provided not by Uber, but by the credit card company, which ensures some level of traceability -- even if Uber tries to hide it, the fact that you were an Uber-user is evident in the electronic trail. A second level of mediation between you and the stranger who is driving the car is provided by Uber itself.

And it's not new with Uber, though low trust has become more pronounced in the US in recent years than it has been before. Overall, I think levels of trust have been declining in the US. One example of this is small children -- nowadays parents get locked up for leaving their children unattended for short periods of time. But it used to be that small children were permitted to walk to and from school without a parent (as is the case, for example, in Seoul or Tokyo today). A strong and legally-enforceable norm has developed that it is irresponsible to trust your children to the good will of random strangers they may pass in the street. Instead, you do it yourself, or rely on an institution: school, day care, police. I don't think the wave has quite crested -- teenage baby sitters are probably going to need licensing through an institution in my lifetime, if they don't already.; 11/10/15, 7:44 AM