Althouse: "The three most destructive words that every man receives when he’s a boy is when he’s told to ‘be a man.'"

October 5, 2015

"The three most destructive words that every man receives when he’s a boy is when he’s told to ‘be a man.'"

"Whether it’s homicidal violence or suicidal violence, people resort to such desperate behavior only when they are feeling shamed and humiliated, or feel that they would be if they didn’t prove they were real men."

2 quotes extracted from the depths of a College Fix piece titled "Students warned: Bulging biceps, big guns advance unhealthy masculinity," which contains other quotes (to which it is more sympathetic), like the sarcastic professor who reacted to the presentation with: "I should have hung myself or jumped out a window from my involvement in athletics."

Meanwhile: "Republicans want to talk about mental illness rather than guns. Let’s do it."

Guns... guns... I know. I'm not trying to create confusion or be cute. That alignment just happened.

93 comments:

rhhardin said...: Goffman's Merry Go Round

A merry-go-round horse is a thing of some size, some height, and some movement; and while the track is never wet, it can be very noisy. American middle-class two-year-olds often find the prospect too much for them. They fight their parents at the last moment to avoid being strapped into a context in which it had been hoped they would prove to be little men. Sometimes they become frantic halfway through the ride, and the machine must be stopped so that they can be removed.; 10/5/15, 10:42 AM
Skipper said...: It's not masculinity that's the problem, it's emasculation of boys by the feminization of society. So, there.; 10/5/15, 10:43 AM
tim maguire said...: Most liberals I know have decided that supporting gun rights is a mental illness. These are urban liberals, obviously, as support for gun rights tends to be geographic rather than political. But there is a political divide--urban liberals are more likely than urban conservatives to dismiss all wrong-think as a sign of mental illness. (As a strong supporter of gun rights who does not own a gun, has never owned a gun, and has no desire to own a gun, I'm an enigma they don't bother to consider except to shake their head and wonder what is wrong with me [once the problem has been pointed out to them--up to that point, they shout all sorts of invective at me concerning gun-rights supporters without for a moment considering that I, standing before them, am a living refutation of their claims.); 10/5/15, 10:49 AM
n.n said...: The statistics don't support their argument. On the other hand, there is elective abortion, relationship dysfunction, spectrum dysphoria, and other moral hazards created by two words: pro-choice. I think the psychos doth protest too much.; 10/5/15, 10:51 AM
Expat(ish) said...: Funny, both my boys are used to being told to "man up," usually paired with the classic "shake it off" (above the waist) or "walk it off" (if below the waist).

My daughter, president of her venture troop, hears it too, and understands what it means in her context.

All great kids/young adults, so clearly it can't be the most corrosive thing ever.

-XC; 10/5/15, 10:57 AM
Nonapod said...: Violent crime in the US continues to drop year after year. Ironically as our society has become less and less violent we've become more and more obsessed with violence. Arguably our entertainment has become more graphically violent. And certainly there's much more handwringing about violence than any other time in the past.

I think we've become a nation of worry warts. Certainly we have very real problems that need to be dealt with (like the whole mental health issues related to these lone nuts shooters) but overall we're safer (domestically at least) than we've ever been.; 10/5/15, 10:58 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "It's not masculinity that's the problem, it's emasculation of boys by the feminization of society. So, there."

That doesn't seem like a manly thing to say. Whining about women. The woman did it. That's the oldest excuse in the book.

You know the book: The Bible.; 10/5/15, 11:01 AM
Jaq said...: Men can't control the constant media bombardment that they receive from the time they are boys.; 10/5/15, 11:07 AM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: That doesn't seem like a manly thing to say.

So basically, you're telling us to be a man? Why are you being so destructive?

And blaming it on the feminization of society is not blaming it on women. It is blaming it on liberals.; 10/5/15, 11:09 AM
Hagar said...: The mental illnesses that lie behind much of our homeless population is perhaps something we with some care can do something about.

The mental illnesses that go with the mass shooting cases, I don't think so. It sounds good, but do you really want government programs to monitor us all for signs of mental illness?
With bureaucrats empowered to define what such signs consist of and take whatever action they might seem appropriate in their view to counteract whatever dangers they might visualize?

This is more "common sense" legislation of the "don't just stand there; do something!" variety.; 10/5/15, 11:11 AM
Paddy O said...: "Whether it’s homicidal violence or suicidal violence"

I grew up and am now a man. I don't recall either of those being suggested or implied. Quite the opposite really.

Be a man involves doing one's duty, true to family and community, honorable, strong.

It's a bit like saying that women shouldn't grow up hearing about feminism, because women hear that and start getting obsessed with fashion and romance and sleeping around.; 10/5/15, 11:14 AM
Michael said...: Being told to "be a man" is not only not harmful it is the sine qua non upon which much of what we have, what we call civilization, is built. To be a man is in large part to get on with it, to keep your problems to yourself, to press on and, above, to not whine. See Stoic.

Oh, and being a man also entails not lying on the floor until you are called upon to be shot.; 10/5/15, 11:15 AM
Gahrie said...: That doesn't seem like a manly thing to say. Whining about women.

Shut up and make me a sandwich is frowned upon these days.

So complaining about the feminization of men and society is whining. I suppose the manly thing to do is just shut up and take it like the splooge stooges we are?

Seriously, how else are men supposed to react?

Here Althouse illustrates the problem. When men discuss their feelings and their marginalization in today's society (like we are told by women we should be doing), we get told to man up and deal with it. Otherwise we aren't "manly".

When men don't discuss their feelings and reject the attempts of society to marginalize them, we are told we are oppressors.

Once again, men can't win no matter what we do.; 10/5/15, 11:15 AM
Paddy O said...: I like this bit from the Martyrdom of Polycarp:

Now when Polycarp entered into the arena there came a voice from heaven: "Be strong, Polycarp, and play the man." And no one saw the speaker, but our friends who were there heard the voice. And next he was brought forward, and there was a great uproar of those who heard that Polycarp had been arrested.

Therefore when he was brought forward the Pro-Consul asked him if he were Polycarp, and when he admitted it he tried to persuade him to deny, saying: "Respect your age," and so forth, as they are accustomed to say: "Swear by the genius of Caesar, repent, say: `Away with the Atheists'"; but Polycarp, with a stern countenance looked on all the crowd of lawless heathen in the arena, and waving his hand at them, he groaned and looked up to heaven and said: "Away with the Atheists."

But when the Pro-Consul pressed him and said: "Take the oath and I let you go, revile Christ," Polycarp said: "For eighty and six years have I been his servant, and he has done me no wrong, and how can I blaspheme my King who saved me?"; 10/5/15, 11:17 AM
Jaq said...: My brother is a paranoid schizophrenic. We didn't know yet it when he took a 30.06 and shot up his car. This was in 1977. I am thinking with the proper media stimulation, he might have done other things with that rifle. Instead he just thought he was abducted by aliens, because that's the thing that crazy people thought in those days. If that guy in the tower in Texas had gotten 24X7 media coverage, the way shooters get now. We even call them a cool name "shooters" not "asshole with a gun" or something more appropriate.

He was always taught how to be a man, he just couldn't learn. The thing is that they are normal teenagers until one day, in their late teens or early twenties, they are not anymore.; 10/5/15, 11:24 AM
Big Mike said...: I tried following the "Students warned" link, but get a 522 error. Looks like your "Althouse-lanch" has overwhelmed their server.

But you can stop trying to use snark to let women off the hook. There's a lot to being a man in the traditional sense of the word, and perhaps someday Meade, who seems like a manly enough man in the traditional sense of the word, will explain it to you. When women fall for "bad boys," when women mistake six pack abs and big biceps for manliness, well there's something wrong with them and not with us.

A real man is dependable. If he says he will make something happen he will make it happen.

As a corollary, his word is good. He won't promise what he can't deliver but if he promises it, he will deliver or do everything humanly possible to deliver on it.

A real man puts himself between other people and danger. You might want to look up Chris Mintz. You might want to check out the number of men who died in the Aurora theater putting their bodies between James Eagan Holmes and their dates.

A real man doesn't start a fight, but if forced into one he wins or he's incapacitated. Or dead.

If that's not what a man means to you, then the problem is yours, Althouse.; 10/5/15, 11:25 AM
Jaq said...: The most famous saying of the Buddha? "Life is suffering," in other words, "Be a man."; 10/5/15, 11:25 AM
Jaq said...: I prefer "Life is difficult" suffering has too many connotations of refugees, etc.; 10/5/15, 11:27 AM
Michael said...: Gharie

Men are often told by women that they don't express their feelings. Just try it and see what happens!; 10/5/15, 11:28 AM
Michael said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 10/5/15, 11:28 AM
Levi Starks said...: If there is such a thing as "unhealthy masculinity", then there must needs be a corresponding "unhealthy femininity". I'd like someone to define that for me.
Unless we're going with a narrative which assumes that only men can be defective.; 10/5/15, 11:35 AM
n.n said...: Be a man, Be a woman, means to be a self-moderating, responsible individual.

That said, why do psychos have an obsession with guns? It is merely a mechanical device with several intended purposes: entertainment, utility, and self-defense, and one unintended function: murder. If anything, mass murderers in liberal societies use a scalpel, which is the preferred instrument of elective abortion in the privacy of a clinic and Planned Parenthood corporate offices. Should civilized societies ban scalpels? Perhaps box cutters?; 10/5/15, 11:44 AM
SeanF said...: The problem isn't that boys are told to "be a man," it's that they're no longer allowed to be boys.

They are told that their natural tendencies - which, let's be honest, are physically boisterous to the point of violence - are bad and wrong, and they must suppress them. So they do.

Until they can't suppress it anymore, and it all comes out at once.; 10/5/15, 11:50 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "So basically, you're telling us to be a man? Why are you being so destructive?"

Are you a boy?; 10/5/15, 11:52 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: "Ann Althouse said...That doesn't seem like a manly thing to say. Whining about women."

Yeah, Skipper, man up, quit whining. Oh, wait.; 10/5/15, 11:53 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Here Althouse illustrates the problem. When men discuss their feelings and their marginalization in today's society (like we are told by women we should be doing), we get told to man up and deal with it. Otherwise we aren't "manly". When men don't discuss their feelings and reject the attempts of society to marginalize them, we are told we are oppressors. Once again, men can't win no matter what we do."

Again, this is a man whining about how it's just impossible to be a man because of all of those women. The project of becoming a man is yours to do well. If your idea is just to give up and to say women have ruined it for you, you are pathetic. You are not much of a contributor, but I suppose you deserve some credit for giving up and getting out of the way.; 10/5/15, 11:55 AM
traditionalguy said...: Being a man is the job description of Adam and it became possible again in the second Adam. Many feminists are seriously jealous of real men, and especially covet our wives. At least Hillary has her a wife at Weiner's expense.; 10/5/15, 11:56 AM
Gahrie said...: Again, this is a man whining about how it's just impossible to be a man because of all of those women. The project of becoming a man is yours to do well. If your idea is just to give up and to say women have ruined it for you, you are pathetic

I don't. I tell them to fuck off, and work to reduce women's influence on our society.

Thanks again for reminding me why.; 10/5/15, 11:58 AM
Ann Althouse said...: People keep paraphrasing me as saying "man up," but that is a distortion and not what I am saying. It sounds very babyish to me. Oh, it's too hard, I guess I should give up. Or like that professor quoted in the article: go kill myself.

If the world is getting too "feminized" for you, why not try to offer something masculine that's worth having -- instead of going from one extreme to another and threatening to give up all the time. We are not here living today because our ancestors behaved like that.; 10/5/15, 11:59 AM
The Bear said...: There is an elephant in the room on this issue that is huge and almost utterly ignored: the vast majority of the guys who are involved in mass killing events - EVEN THOSE OPERATING AS RELIGIOUS RADICALS OR RACIAL SUPREMACISTS - are guys who are not at all "macho" in any real sense, generally unsuccessful sexually in their respective cultures, depressed, loners, and often have underlying structural psychological issues that have been ignored. Its not about guns as many weapons have been used from bombs to box-cutters.

Mohamed Atta didn't use a gun ... and there was evidentiary discussions about his lack of a family future as an inspiration - same thing for many of the other of the 911 terrorists.

Timothy McVeigh had no sort of love life and was socially inept and Terry Nichols' was previously divorced/abandoned by his first wife and his second Filipina wife appears to have given him no end of trouble.

Kleebold and Harris were both social outcasts living the "geek" lifestyle.

Vester Flanagan was an unhappy gay guy prone to emotional outbursts.

Dylan Roof was socially inept and a loner -so was Chris Mercer.

Almost the entire list of people who've been involved in mass murderers for as long as I can remember (and I'm 54) have been sexually frustrated, socially inept, loners with mental issues ... not macho guys with big muscles and lots of lovers.

The feminists are targeting the guys for societal destruction who aren't a threat to them (save maybe thru rejection) verses trying to do something about the guys who are effeminate and mentally ill.; 10/5/15, 11:59 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "I tell them to fuck off, and work to reduce women's influence on our society."

Again, you are not much of a contributor to the future of humankind, but you deserve some credit for giving up and getting out of the way.; 10/5/15, 12:00 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: No, Levi, "toxic masculinity" is one of those useful Leftist phrases you'll just have to learn to love--there's no corresponding toxic femininity, but don't worry, it's only TOXIC masculinity that's the problem. What makes particular behaviors and beliefs associated with masculinity toxic, you ask? Why, if it's anything other than doctrinaire (Leftist) feminism, it must be toxic. How can CrimeThink be healthy? Toxic, toxic, toxic.; 10/5/15, 12:02 PM
Levi Starks said...: Men can't win no matter what we do?
That's not the narrative I see. The narrative I see is that women loose no matter what men do, and I'm fine with it.; 10/5/15, 12:03 PM
Gahrie said...: Again, you are not much of a contributor to the future of humankind, but you deserve some credit for giving up and getting out of the way.

I teach high school every day in an attempt to contribute to the future of mankind, and spend much of it warning my students about people like you.

But what the fuck do I matter, I'm just a splooge stooge and an open wallet.; 10/5/15, 12:06 PM
Gahrie said...: If the world is getting too "feminized" for you, why not try to offer something masculine that's worth having

What? Our paycheck? Hell you guys are even feminizing the fucking military now for Christ's sake. Anytime anyone does anything masculine today they get attacked for it.

We are not here living today because our ancestors behaved like that.

I agree.

Repeal the 19th Amendment.; 10/5/15, 12:10 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: I have to admire the ahistorical illogic of the argument that our current societal problems w/r/t young men is the result of too much masculinity. It's doubtful that at any time in the history of our nation full time fathers have been less a part of their children's lives than now. Fathers are less involved, less present, and less important in their children's lives now than in even the recent past. Our culture treats fathers as unimportant and more-or-less disposable--unnecessary and easily replaced with a monthly check. Men aren't around to teach boys how to be men, and what's the diagnosis from the Left? Masculinity itself is a problem!
Think of a man associated with the word "masculinity" and who pops into you mind? John Wayne? Clint Eastwood? Chesty Puller? Anyone from the last couple of decades? If "manly men" are mostly associated with the past and contrasted with the less "manly men" of today, how can it still be the case that the cause of the problems today (which did not exist in the past) is the GREATER influence of masculinity? If boys have more behavioral problems today but the culture has moved away from celebrations of "traditional masculinity," how can it be true that "traditional masculinity" is the cause of those increasing problems?? If we have less of some alleged cause today and more of the alleged effect, what sense does it make to say the solution must be to have EVEN LESS of the cause?; 10/5/15, 12:12 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Althouse, why do you seem to have quite the mean, taunting streak about men? Are you like that with your sons and husband? What's the deal there? Honest question. What are you trying to goad them to be?; 10/5/15, 12:13 PM
Gahrie said...: Althouse, why do you seem to have quite the mean, taunting streak about men?

Primarily because we use logic and rational thought, and expect others to do so also...which deeply offends her.

Secondarily because we insist that women begin acting responsibly.; 10/5/15, 12:17 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Ann Althouse said...Ann Althouse said...
"I tell them to fuck off, and work to reduce women's influence on our society."

Again, you are not much of a contributor to the future of humankind, but you deserve some credit for giving up and getting out of the way.

"Eliminationist rhetoric," wasn't that the phrase? In any event that's the ethos--on the one hand you read all these triumphant articles about how the influence of old (angry) white men is finally waning, about how demographic trends make conservatives/traditionalists less influential in both politics and culture, about how technological improvements mean traditional ways of living (and their attendant cultural/social baggage) are no longer necessary, and how this is all a great thing. On the other hand you read these articles about how the young aren't developing properly (less employment, less new household development, fewer marriages and children), how the culture is becoming less cohesive and less supportive of the type of nation we've been (from Bowling Alone to multicultural frictions), and just generally getting worse in terms of the traditional American dream and familial stability/prosperity.
It's poison, though, absolute poison, to link those two trends in any way.; 10/5/15, 12:20 PM
Tyrone Slothrop said...: The Second Amendment may be suspended for the insane, most of us would agree. What the left is angling to do is to make it appear to be "common sense" that if you want to own guns, you are sick, sick, sick. Catch-22.; 10/5/15, 12:34 PM
JackWayne said...: So when Thatcher told Bush, "Don't go wobbly George", was she being supportive or manly?; 10/5/15, 12:37 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Ann Althouse said...Again, you are not much of a contributor to the future of humankind

By the way, it might be a bit unkind, but take a look at the demographic trends in the world today and then think about who the "contributors to the future of humankind" actually are. I read Mark Steyn's America Alone when it came out and thought it was too pessimistic--lots of reviewers agreed and found his trend-line extrapolations of the current (mid '00s I think) demographic data to be too simplistic. Looking back, though, he was right on all the points I remember--if you look at Europe today the refugee crisis is really just accelerating the trends that already exist. If anyone thinks modern America has a "toxic masculinity" problem just wait for the next generation of immigrants in Western Europe to assert themselves--and it just gets worse every year.
Look, we had this fight 40-50 years ago. The hippies were never numerically superior but culturally they defeated the squares. It's celebrated! The nuclear family was ruled radioactive and new modes of being were pushed to the forefront. There's a political dimension to all of this, of course, but its significance is scant compared to the larger cultural and demographic forces at work.
Manly men--stable, self-sacrificing, breadwinning, traditionalist men are not selected for in our society. People respond to incentives. Modern culture doesn't reward men who fit that mold, or at any rate doesn't reward that nearly as much as it used to. The result is you see less of it. That's not whining, that's stating the reality as many men see it. It's not "giving up" to say "well, this is the state of the playing field, I'd better make sure I choose the most rational strategy given this reality." Sure, we as a society could change that framework, but it's silly to say "well that's men's job;" it's not rational for any individual to do so. What cultural force or group exists to lobby for those changes? The churches that are largely empty, the civic associations with record low attendance, or the extended stable families that are now a shrinking minority?; 10/5/15, 12:37 PM
Jim said...: Oh goodie; we're learning to be graceful men from the Margaret Cuninggim Women’s Center.; 10/5/15, 12:46 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: By the way, demographic subgroups with fewer full time fathers (and more out-of-wedlock births) have more young men with behavioral problems (dropping out of school, imprisonment, etc). Conservatives & traditionalists who argued that we should take actions to preserve traditional familial structures were dismissed as out of touch, out of date, and of hating women. The government grew and then role of the father (in providing for his family long term w/full time presence) shrank--under Dems and Repubs both. "What we need is government program X, more spending for Y, more outreach for Z," but anyone who argued that what we really needed was to strengthen the family was dismissed as a fuddy duddy (or a combatant in the War on Women).
"Down with the patriarchy!" Ok, it's down. "Things aren't working out well!" Oh, shall I fix that for you? How?
Women have advanced by leaps and bounds and accomplished most of the feminist agenda w/r/t prominence/influence in the culture/politics/workplaces of the nation. These advances have sometimes been at the expense of men, but leave that aside. You're winning; you've won. Why are you so unhappy? Look at your survey data--you're less content now than your mothers were! You have more opportunity and more say in the nation's workings, but you're less satisfied with your lot. And your complaint is that masculinity/the patriarchy is still holding you down!; 10/5/15, 12:51 PM
Larry J said...: Ann Althouse said...
"It's not masculinity that's the problem, it's emasculation of boys by the feminization of society. So, there."

That doesn't seem like a manly thing to say. Whining about women. The woman did it. That's the oldest excuse in the book.

You know the book: The Bible.

“We make men without chests and expect from them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.”

― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

Men - and women - without muscular chests complaining about masculinity. Isn't that cute?; 10/5/15, 12:56 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Individual rationality isn't the same as group rationality--they don't always (or even usually) point in the same direction. It's rational for an individual to withdraw her money when there's a bank run--she's better off if she can get her cash out before the bank folds. That's true for all the individuals involved, but if we were looking at what's best for the group as a whole it wouldn't be true (they should wait).
If the modern cultural & legal reality disfavors traditionally masculine behaviors then it's rational for any individual man to let that reality guide his actions. He may want a long term committed relationship, or to avoid a hook-up culture, or to spend time with his children and imbue them with traditionally masculine beliefs, but if those things aren't valued by women/the culture at large it doesn't make sense for him to harm his chances by pursuing those goals.
Look, divorce is easy and men generally fare poorly in them--it more common now than it was. When making the decision on whether to marry that has to be a part of his judgment. It's stupid to say "well he should just suck it up" and ignore the odds/expected value of the outcome; if you change the odds and change the payoffs rational people will change their behaviors. A culture that doesn't value traditional masculinity will get less of it.; 10/5/15, 1:03 PM
Known Unknown said...: This isn't new.; 10/5/15, 1:06 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Ann Althouse said...If the world is getting too "feminized" for you, why not try to offer something masculine that's worth having

May I have an example, Professor? How about stable, long-term commitment to one's spouse & children (financial, emotional, etc)? Plenty of men "try to offer" that, would be happy to offer that! In the past there was some chance that the result of offering that would be divorce and financial ruin, but that chance was relatively small. Lots of men made sacrifices and reaped rewards--they did, their families did, our nation did. Today that chance (of divorce) is 50-50, maybe worse, and the result of the divorce is probably worse for men than it used to be. The odds are worse and the payoff is potentially smaller. Fewer men are willing to take the deal. Your response to that really isn't "well, men should be just as willing, even with a lower expected value (odds * payoff)," is it?; 10/5/15, 1:09 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: I'm amused at the mental juxtaposition between women's insistence that things they want be provided to them (free birth control is a human right!) with the insistence both that men have a moral obligation to sacrifice for women's benefit and that all women really want is equality.
When women (as a group) aren't given something it's a moral failing of the nation. When men (as a group) complain about what they see as an unfair obligation they're whiners and unmanly.
Gender is nothing more than a social construct, and feminism is about equality, but apparently it's simultaneously true that we expect more from men and they'd better just accept that.; 10/5/15, 1:16 PM
Paddy O said...: "why do you seem to have quite the mean, taunting streak about men?"

Mean? I don't see that. Taunting? Sure. But after being hereabouts for a long while, it's clear Althouse has a taunting streak about everyone. I think that's part of what has made her a successful blogger.

I'm not sure a real man would really be put out by a random blogger they don't even know. Truth be told, I'm not entirely convinced a real man would spend any time at all commenting on blog posts, but that would be insulting to those I've run across over the years here and elsewhere, some of whom certainly don't have anything to prove.; 10/5/15, 1:19 PM
Fernandinande said...: "The size of G.I. Joe’s biceps and Arnold Schwarzenegger’s guns in the Terminator movies is proof that the dominant form of masculinity is out of control."

Western civilization menaced by muscular dolls and robots.; 10/5/15, 1:31 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: I'm not sure a real man would really be put out by a random blogger they don't even know.

Oh, agree entirely. I take nothing Althouse (or really anyone who isn't in my very inner circle) says personally; especially in this case because I'm not a man. But it is a pattern I notice, that she seems to take a grim pleasure in taunting her male readers, and that makes me curious. Not butthurt; just curious.; 10/5/15, 1:35 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Man has trouble finding a stable relationship/wife/happy life in modern culture = something's wrong with him, he's defective, he's not worthy and we're glad he won't contribute to the future.

Woman has trouble competing at work, finding happiness, finding a spouse/starting a family staying married = the patriarchy is oppressive to women, we must change the rules to be kinder to women, men need to shape up, and the government needs to step in and provide the things women need to succeed.

Equality.; 10/5/15, 1:36 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Look, as an individual I'm responsible for my actions and decisions and for the results--I neither blame nor credit blame anyone else, or "the system," or any larger cultural force for outcomes. If we want to talk about personal responsibility and individual choices that's fine, no objection.
When the subject is feminism (and often Leftism more generally), though, the conversation is explicitly NOT about individual choices and their consequences. The conversation is about the system, the culture, structural deficiencies, etc. It's simply not fair (and usually nonsensical) to conflate the two TYPES of argument, but that's what seems to happen here.
Women choose lower-paying (less dangerous, more pleasant) jobs, and then blame the SYSTEM on their overall lower wages (compared to men who work longer hours at less pleasant, more dangerous jobs). If I say "well then, missy, get up on that roof and start pounding shingles, get on the crab boat and start hauling pots, stay at your office until 8 every night, etc," then I'm shouted down as a woman-hater who clearly doesn't understand that it's the SYSTEM that's at fault, and not individual women's choices.
On the other hand men here complain about the fact that cultural and legal forces make it difficult for them to pursue the kinds of relationships or modes of living they'd like, and the response is "well they ought to make individual choices that costly to them anyway" when what they're actually talking about is the SYSTEM.
In the case of women we have to ignore individual responsibility, but in the case of men it's the only thing that we can consider--and it's unmanly to question any burden whatsoever.; 10/5/15, 1:46 PM
Jaq said...: The truth is that Althouse is right. The path to actualizing yourself as a person, in my case, a man, is a difficult one, not made easier by expecting others to carry part of the burden.; 10/5/15, 1:46 PM
William said...: I recently read a book about the Battle of Lepanto. One of the Spanish captains had his hand maimed by a grenade. When his squire refused to perform the service, he himself took an axe and amputated his hand. He then bandaged the stump and rejoined the battle......That's not toxic masculinity, but it's a little beyond my range. I'm willing to sleep on the side of the bed nearest the window, the side where a burglar might enter. That's the kind of masculinity we can all support.; 10/5/15, 1:48 PM
holdfast said...: The Bear makes a good point - one of the common threads that connects most of the recent spree shooters, including the latest one in Oregon, is that none of them were balls-deep on the regular. Not that sex is the answer to all of man's problems (so to speak), but it's certainly a common theme. Is that because an inability to get a steady partner or spouse is just another indicator of loserdom? Is it because having an intimate connection with another human being grounds a person and connects them to humanity in general? Is it as simple as having nothing to live for (since most of these massacres are at root a very destructive form of suicide - the Aurora shooter being an exception)?

@Tim - the Newtown, CT shooter was never a normal teenager.; 10/5/15, 1:50 PM
Birkel said...: Somewhere a fish is smiling and a bicycle is rusting.; 10/5/15, 2:00 PM
Titus said...: I love biceps-they are my favorite body part.

#2-abs
#3-chest
#4-shoulders
#5-ass
#6-back
#7-thighs
#8-calfs

I work on my abs and biceps/triceps most-

But I do most body parts equally. I am really into crunches for my ass right now.

tits.; 10/5/15, 2:04 PM
Birkel said...: I enjoy the idea that Professor Althouse has lectured her commenters about manliness.; 10/5/15, 2:07 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: tim in vermont said...The path to actualizing yourself as a person, in my case, a man, is a difficult one, not made easier by expecting others to carry part of the burden.

I don't think anyone's arguing against that, tim. Part of the discussion is over whether it's permissible to point out that certain things make that burden greater, and part is over what kinds of things can influence the size of the burden generally (for men and women both, of course). A secondary discussion is being had over the actual (and expected) outcomes of changing the burden (heavier for some, etc).; 10/5/15, 2:21 PM
Rusty said...: If the world is getting too "feminized" for you, why not try to offer something masculine that's worth having --

We do.
You complain( not you, but feminists in general) accuse men of being Neanderthals, misogynistic, etc.
So go ahead and feminize the world.
I'll be here doing what I always do.
Which is saving your stupid ass when you get in over your head.( not necessarily you, Ann.)

I'm gonna go do guy stuff now.; 10/5/15, 2:22 PM
jr565 said...: Be a man!
Wait, be a man as per biology, or be a man as per social construct? What does that actually entail? Feminists versions of a man? IS that ok to actually be?; 10/5/15, 2:24 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: It seems pretty obvious that Lena Dunham et al. aren't the "backbone of society" but I notice we're obligated to listen to her various complaints ad nauseam.; 10/5/15, 2:24 PM
jr565 said...: When I grow up to Be-ee A Man:

https://youtu.be/OjJUNh8QATw; 10/5/15, 2:25 PM
Brando said...: When the barbarians are at the gates, I'd rather have some "toxic masculine" types there on our side.; 10/5/15, 2:27 PM
jr565 said...: The new movie the intern has a scene where Anne Hathaway asks "why are there no men like Robert Deniro's character" anymore. She was talking about the "men" who are complaining about big guns and muscles.; 10/5/15, 2:30 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Don't forget that "Men have structured the world to serve the interests of men," so if there are problems in transmitting "good" masculinity to boys it's the fault of men who structured the world to cause those problems.; 10/5/15, 2:32 PM
Todd G. said...: Well, left work early and saw this. I'll take the dog for a walk, start dinner, then load a hundred or so rounds of .30-06, because I can. Being a man is what it is.; 10/5/15, 3:05 PM
dbp said...: "I am really into crunches for my ass right now."

I think squats might be a better bet.; 10/5/15, 3:05 PM
Birkel said...: One may have all the hallmarks of manliness without being a man.

One could list the hallmarks and still find examples that betrayed little manliness, or who were female.; 10/5/15, 3:15 PM
dbp said...: ""Whether it’s homicidal violence or suicidal violence, people resort to such desperate behavior only when they are feeling shamed and humiliated, or feel that they would be if they didn’t prove they were real men.""

What they seem to be saying is that if these proto-mass murderers had not felt pressure to obtain traditional measures of manliness, they would not become violent. They believe that traditional manliness is somehow toxic. The actual problem is that it has become harder for guys who are inept to achieve traditional manliness. Guys that fail to become men tend to become social outcasts and create problems.; 10/5/15, 3:21 PM
Rusty said...: I was always told to, "think it through".
Maybe that was my parents ," be a man" meme.; 10/5/15, 3:27 PM
Big Mike said...: What Rusty wrote.; 10/5/15, 4:15 PM
MadisonMan said...: I would tell my kids: Don't judge your worth by what someone else writes.

As you happy? Are the people around you happy?

Then you're doing a good job.; 10/5/15, 4:16 PM
Ambrose said...: You should never say "Be a man!" Instead, admonish people to: "Self-identify as male!"; 10/5/15, 4:19 PM
Birkel said...: Horrible advice, MadisonMan, for those who find happiness from the pain of others.

Also, doing the right things often involve short-term costs for long-term gains. This may be felt as near-term unhappiness and would be foregone in your telling.; 10/5/15, 4:28 PM
I Callahan said...: Again, this is a man whining about how it's just impossible to be a man because of all of those women. The project of becoming a man is yours to do well. If your idea is just to give up and to say women have ruined it for you, you are pathetic. You are not much of a contributor, but I suppose you deserve some credit for giving up and getting out of the way.

Men are being men just fine. Then they're being excoriated for it. So nice try.

No, men are just pointing out the inherent contradiction in this line of thinking. The fact that you accuse him of whining just proves the point.; 10/5/15, 4:31 PM
I Callahan said...: And this post is a classic example of our hostess trolling her commenters.; 10/5/15, 4:31 PM
jeff said...: Ms Althouse said - Again, you are not much of a contribution to the future of humankind🔫
Then how is trying to turn all them into Assf...... Pussyl...... Gays adding to the future of MANKIND?; 10/5/15, 4:39 PM
Titus said...: sorry-crunches for abs squats for ass.

I can squat really low too.; 10/5/15, 4:50 PM
BN said...: Ann Althouse said: "If the world is getting too "feminized" for you, why not try to offer something masculine that's worth having"

Hey, I know. How 'bout we win a war or something? Nahhh... we can't do that, not cool. Let's protest something! What should we protest? Why, men, of course!; 10/5/15, 4:51 PM
BN said...: Ann defines men by the length of their...

pants.; 10/5/15, 5:00 PM
chuck said...: If women don't change their taste in men, and I don't think they will, men need to be men. Movies might portray motorcycle riding tough guys as sensitive souls at heart, but that's bullshit.; 10/5/15, 5:13 PM
ken in tx said...: The only time I remember being taunted about my lack of manhood was when a woman wanted me to shoot a stray dog for her.; 10/5/15, 5:14 PM
Birkel said...: ken in tx,
To be fair, after this thread, you can count two times.
Fish hate bicycles.; 10/5/15, 5:31 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: Social mores of young males in California circa 1976:

1. If a boy hit you, you had to hit back regardless of age, size or potential for ass-whipping.
2. If a boy said something about "your Momma," you had to fight.
3. Never, ever, under any circumstance, hit a girl
4. Fights were one-on-one, often with many kids forming a ring around the combattants chanting, "fight!, fight!, fight!"
5. Never use a weapon (stick, bat, rocks, or skateboard). No kicking or biting. Fists and sometimes wrestling, but asphalt was very hard.
6. Never gang-up. Never hit a kid was on the ground. Certainly do not kick him on the ground.
7. If a big kids saw the ass-whipping, they often stopped it. If big kids saw a bigger kid beating on small kid, sometimes they would intercede. "Pick on someone your own size" carried weight.
8. Backing out of a fight, when circumstances warranted, badly hurt one's reputation.

These informal guidelines worked pretty well up until about age 14. Then, the kids got too big, and fighting became way too dangerous.

My kids have never been in a fight. On the one hand, I'm glad they've never been hurt; on the other, I worry if they are mature enough to handle trouble, if trouble crossed their paths.

What does any of this have to do with this post?

Well, I see AA talking a bit tough, I hear feminists talking tough, I see women being ruder on the subways, more aggressive, less deferential to men.

It's a social readjustment, but it has an artificial component to it. I see women wanting the benefits, but not taking on the burdens of protecting the weak and innocent when the @$!% hits the fan.

Those 3 heroic young men who rushed the shooter in that French train (Stone, Skarlatos, Sadler) are the kind of the role models I looked up to as a kid and tried to emulate (at least in my mind). Ditto for the guys who rushed the cockpit in United flight 93. I'm glad they still exist. In my view, that is what it means to "Man-up"

There are some wonderful courageous women, true, but, on the whole, I don't see them rising to these highest levels when it really matters and you really need someone.; 10/5/15, 6:26 PM
Michael K said...: "Again, this is a man whining about how it's just impossible to be a man because of all of those women. "

I just laugh at you and your sisters and teach my daughters to shoot.; 10/5/15, 6:52 PM
Gahrie said...: Well, I see AA talking a bit tough, I hear feminists talking tough, I see women being ruder on the subways, more aggressive, less deferential to men.

Because, as Ray Rice has proven, you still can't hit a woman (even though they're equal) no matter how much shit they give you.; 10/5/15, 7:19 PM
Aussie Pundit said...: There's nothing wrong with encouraging boys to become men; maturity is not something to be dismissed.
As for the negative masculinity, this is a much demonised caricature of ordinary adult male characterics by academics.

There's nothing wrong with young women working hard to attain attractive, thin bodies, and there's equally nothing wrong with young men working hard to have attractive, muscular bodies.; 10/5/15, 8:38 PM
BN said...: "Again, this is a man whining..."

Again, embrace the decline.; 10/5/15, 9:59 PM
BN said...: Bay Area Guy for the win.

Be careful, y'all. Not everyone is so enlightened.; 10/5/15, 10:00 PM
BN said...: Culture is hard. Harder than math even. Throw it away at your own peril.; 10/5/15, 10:09 PM