"What do you mean, it doesn't exist?" I reply, oblivious to her hostility.... "I'd just like a marinara but with some mozzarella on top." Unwittingly I make matters worse by miming her mozzarella-sprinkling action.She did not find that question amusing or apt.
"La marinara is a pizza rossa," she states frostily. "A pizza rossa is made with tomato and without mozzarella. So you can't have a marinara with mozzarella because there's no such thing."...
"I suppose," she mutters grudgingly, "I could make you a margherita with garlic." (For those unfamiliar, a margherita is a pizza topped with tomato and mozzarella.)
"And the difference..." I ask, laughing blithely, "between a marinara with mozzarella and a margherita with garlic?"
August 5, 2015
The pizza that doesn't exist.
"You can't have a marinara with mozzarella... It doesn't exist."
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145 comments:
"Can I have my coffee without cream?"
"I'm sorry, we are out of cream."
"Then can I have it without milk?"
"Sure."
Use a little ingenuity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wtfNE4z6a8
Classic Nicholson.
Or you could always just punch her out.
Classic Basil
John Henry
They would have made you mayor in a small Italian town on the seashore for breaking tradition.
It's the ontological argument.
Existence is not a predicate.
Why is it resistance but existence.
Or impedance, for that matter.
I bet on the influence of eletrical engineers.
Sadly I have lived outside America's "pizza belt" (defined as central NJ to RI) for over 20 years. Stories like that make my mouth water.
If we had some bread, we could make ham sandwiches if we had some ham.
A pizza nazi. No mozzarella for you!
I had been having a lot of fun with abortion cheerleaders who steadfastly claim that the word "baby" or "child" simply *cannot* refer to what they insist on exclusively terming a "fetus."
Even the Webster's dictionary does not include the sense of baby as fetus. So when a pregnant woman says "I felt the baby move" or somebody says "She's carrying my baby" or "She lost the baby" that is simply not English! Look right in the dictionary!
It is the first sighting of the SJWs turning an actual dictionary into a Newspeak dictionary. By refusing to acknowledge that the baby is anything but a "fetus" they are engaging in Crimestop: To rid oneself of unwanted thoughts—i.e., thoughts that interfere with Party ideology—in order to avoid committing thoughtcrime.
I support abortion rights, I don't want the state snooping around to see who is preggers, or get homicide detectives or the coroner involved every time there is a miscarriage, but man! The absolute refusal to acknowledge proper English usage is amazing to me.
My Pizza claim to fame:
I co-invented the Hawaiian pizza in 1973.
I was in the Navy and one of my roommates was Sandy Reuben who managed the Roosevelt Roads Acey-Deucy Club at the time. We got the munchies late one night and with another roommate, Fast Eddie Finan, we went to the club at about 3AM so Sandy could make us some pizza.
Not sure what toppings to put on it, I spied an open can of pineapple chunks and suggested that this might be interesting. (Did I mention that we had consumed copious amounts of Don Q rum?)
Voila! the Hawaiian pizza was born.
Sandy left the Navy and went on to great things in cookery. I like to think he is the one who spread the word that pineapple on pizza is really, really, good.
John Henry
Blogger tim in vermont said...
I had been having a lot of fun with abortion cheerleaders who steadfastly claim that the word "baby" or "child" simply *cannot* refer to what they insist on exclusively terming a "fetus."
Ann hasn't. Been having fun, that is. It's been a month or so now. Not a word from here about Planned Parenthood.
Cruel neutrality, donchaknow.
John Henry
She certainly could have been more accommodating, but there are words with actual definitions that preclude certain alterations, if you make those alterations than the word no longer applies.
I'd like a virgin Margarita with Tequila.
I'd like a marriage with someone of the same sex.
See, you just end up with nonsense.
@John, my favorite, though I skip out on the meat because I am vegetarian. But pineapple and jalapeno with cheese is a great combination.
Not to mention anchovies with green chile!
Fer krisesakes! Can't some of you fanatics give it a rest? What pertinence does a story about the nomenclature of different types of pizza have to do with abortion?
And this?
"She certainly could have been more accommodating, but there are words with actual definitions that preclude certain alterations, if you make those alterations than the word no longer applies.
"I'd like a virgin Margarita with Tequila.
"I'd like a marriage with someone of the same sex.
"See, you just end up with nonsense."
Yes, a virgin Margarita with Tequila is a contradiction in terms, but marriage with someone of the same sex is not...no matter much you want it to be so.
What pertinence does a story about the nomenclature of different types of pizza have to do with abortion?
Well, we were talking about a bizarre adherence to some arbitrary terminology and a pretense of a failure to understand different terminology to describe the exact same thing and an odd insistence that the failure was on the part of the speaker as if the English language were not large enough to encompass both meanings.
I would say that my anecdote was spot on.
No, cookie, you have just swallowed the kool-aid, that's all.
And BTW, here you are jumping in to insist that a word means something specific and cannot have any other meaning with regards to the word "marriage." So I am thinking that the discussion is not off point at all.
Marriage as a union between a man and a woman? Oldspeak! Even maybe crimethink!
I had a waiter in Italy flat-out refuse to bring my wife and me parmesan for our steamed oysters and linguine. It turns out that Italians do not do cheese on seafood. Also, getting them to put ice in an already cold drink, forget about it.
Once in Paris, I was trying out my french and ordered eggs for breakfast. The lady behind the counter looked at me quizzically as if she didn't understand a word I had said.
I left to try again elsewhere, but my wife, who had gotten up just after I left the hotel, came into the same little cafe next to our hotel and spoke English. The counterperson said to her "That man wanted to eat eggs for breakfast!"
She told me that and I laughed so hard.
That Newspeak dictionary is the gift that keeps on giving.
Joycamp: Forced labor camp
Remember when Hillary wanted to send adults to "fun camp"?
http://reason.com/blog/2015/03/19/hillary-clinton-wants-to-send-citizens-t
"I understand it doesn't exist. You haven't made it yet. Once you do, it will exist (until I eat it)". Kinda like life.
"I can't believe nobody's mentioned the "Five Easy Pieces" diner scene."
I can believe you haven't read the comments.
"What pertinence does a story about the nomenclature of different types of pizza have to do with abortion?"
Cookie has a problem with irony and so does every other lefty I know including a couple of my children.
I think the best pizza is still in Chicago. Why would anyone go to Italy for pizza when there is lots of wonderful food?
Pizza is junk food as far as I am concerned. Go to Paris for McDonalds.
Robert Cook said...
Fer krisesakes! Can't some of you fanatics give it a rest? What pertinence does a story about the nomenclature of different types of pizza have to do with abortion?
Yes, for Christ's sake. Suffer not the little children.
Have you seen the videos of what happens to the PP babies? Looks sort of like a pizza with everything. Keep that image next time you go to Dominoes, or Rays or whatever is good in Madison.
John Henry
I was eating Hawaiian pizza in the mid=60s in Omaha.
Anybody else wonder why Ms. Althouse is avoiding the Planned Parenthood scandal? Makes me think she's hiding something.
Often when we go to an eatery that advertises "juicy hamburgers" I'll just order fries and a glass of hamburger juice.
At restaurants that advertise "Authentic Mexican," "Authentic Italian," etc. we ask to see their accrediting bona fides.
Althouse has not been afraid to deal with difficult topics. On this one I assumed she was taking time to get her thoughts together, but the longer this goes the more it looks like avoidance. She's not going to cave on a woman's right to choose, but cutting up fetuses for parts may be more than she can handle.
(And yes, Tim, I said fetus.)
Livermoron said...
Anybody else wonder why Ms. Althouse is avoiding the Planned Parenthood scandal?
I'm not. I assume it is because she does not feel she has anything interesting to say about the subject, and/or she feels that we don't have anything interesting to say about it.
Her blog, her choice.
"What do you mean, it doesn't exist?" I reply, oblivious to her hostility.... "I'd just like a marinara but with some mozzarella on top." Unwittingly I make matters worse by miming her mozzarella-sprinkling action.
"La marinara is a pizza rossa," she states frostily. "A pizza rossa is made with tomato and without mozzarella. So you can't have a marinara with mozzarella because there's no such thing."..."
When dealing with someone like this its best to follow their current. The author simply could have phrased it as "please, lets invent something new".
Tim Europeans see American's as uncultured boors. What you ordered isn't breakfast as per the counterperson. Ron, same thing. Its just not done and how boorish for you to even ask. An American restaurant would accommodate you at price, they are in the food business. The European restaurant is in the specific time of day meal business.
"And BTW, here you are jumping in to insist that a word means something specific and cannot have any other meaning with regards to the word "marriage."
????? I did no such thing.
"Marriage as a union between a man and a woman? Oldspeak! Even maybe crimethink!"
No, simply too narrow.
Robert Cook said...
Fer krisesakes! Can't some of you fanatics give it a rest?
Why give it a rest when being right is so much fun?
Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...
Often when we go to an eatery that advertises "juicy hamburgers" I'll just order fries and a glass of hamburger juice.
When my younger daughter was young, she didn't like meat on her cheese burger. It was fun going through the drive through and ordering a bun and cheese. Most of the times we had to repeat the order but they eventually got it done. I don't see that happening in Europe.
Speaking of things that don't exist, I just finished up the audiobook of "A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing," by Lawrence Krauss. I understood literally nothing, and I not saying that to be clever, just factual. I literally understood nothing the guy said.
On the grand scale of intellectual endeavor, I feel fairly safe in saying that the intersection of particle physics and cosmology are at one end, and the classification of various kinds of pizza are at the other.
Rebecca West, in her seminal 1940 work Black Lamb and Grey Falcon, noted with amusement a German mother-in-law's disdain for the Yugoslav habit of ordering coffee "mitt ohne," or "with without," to avoid getting the very common added fruit syrup in a cafe coffee. "With without" jarred her Germanic orderly world view, and was cause for condescension towards the non-Germans.
The more culturally adaptive Bosnians had no trouble accepting the nuanced ordering convention.
Still, the Germans made war better. Better than anyone, not better for anyone.
Thanks for giving voice to the obvious, IiB.
A ham pizza is placed in a steel chamber, along with the following device: in a Geiger counter, there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small, that perhaps in the course of the hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay opens a container with chopped pieces of pineapple, poised to drop on the pizza. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the pizza was merely a ham pizza if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the ham pizza and Hawaiian pizza mixed or smeared out in equal parts.
--Schrödinger's pizza
Good one Scott!!
Livermoron said...
Thanks for giving voice to the obvious, IiB.
Hey, somebody's got to stand up to all those people trying to order virgin drinks with alcohol. It will be the end of civilization as we know it. Mark my words...
People who put fruit syrup in coffee deserve to lose wars and do ATM pornography for the next century.
As for the Germans being superior at war, I shall merely quote Pvt Webber from Band of Brothers:
You have horses! What were you thinking?
Ron, same thing. Its just not done and how boorish for you to even ask.
I definitely got that vibe, but it didn't bother me. I thought it was great to interact with people with such strong opinions on food.
What amazes me is that there are McDonald's in Italy and actual Italians patronize them. The author of the linked piece isn't kidding about good pizza being everywhere. And in addition to that there are cafes that sell excellent paninis and for dinner there are rotisserias where you can pick up excellent roasted everything. There is no reason, whatsoever, to patronize a McDonald's unless you just got to have some of those fries. I don't know if they still utilize lard to make the fries overseas since I have never ate at a McDonald's while traveling in Europe.
Ok, I confess, there was the one time at the McDonald's in Munich next to the outdoor ice skating rink. But, we were traveling with friends who wanted to eat there and it was Germany, so you get kind of tired of all the sausage and breaded, deep fried meat.
I'm so ashamed.
Cubanbob,
Did you ever try ordering a hamburger with lettuce and tomato, but no pickles in his country?
Lived in Germany many years and I would get a jones for hamburgers and Mexican food every now and then. There was a Burger King (always packed)not far from my office and a Whopper could sure taste good. As for Mexican food...no restaurants anywhere. In my desperation for a taco I brazened my way into a US military PX (I was NOT in the service at that time) and was able to buy enough stuff to throw a fiesta for my German friends. Yes, I risked jail for tacos and refritas.
I guess that kind makes me a hero.
Hero?
Dammit, now I want a hoagie.
Love German food. There is quite a lot of variety in their cuisine. Don't listen to the 'sausage and deep-fried meat' guys here. They are the same ones who would order chop suey in Beijing.
Personally, I don't thing the PP scandal changes Althouse's views on abortion anymore than it changes mine, if I may speak for her from my understanding of her past comments.
I think her view is that abortion is the killing of a baby, who is a human being, who has been declared to be "not a legal person" by the Supreme Court of the United States.
I don't think she goes in much for the euphemisms and pretty lies about non human entities and obfuscatory language.
I feel the same way. That abortion is not pretty, that it is the killing of a human being that the court has declared to be without rights, but this is not a perfect world, and I don't want to live in a country where the govt could prevent abortion.
"Would you like that pizza cut into 6 slices or 8?"
"Better make it 6. I don't think I can eat 8."
I wonder if Jack Nicholson would have given her the "Five Easy Pieces" response.
The Dali Lama walks into this pizza place and says “I’d like you to make me one with everything”
He then makes a goofy face and says- “Get it? ‘One with Everything’… Ha! That’s a corker! ”
We used to go to the Hard Rock Cafe in Sydney because "Dammit! I want the waitress to bring me ice water the minute I sit down without being asked, just once this week!"
I shouldn't have said "asked" I should have said "begged."
Our hostess did have a post on the Planned Parenthood matter I recall.
I had a favorite pizza joint, I'd order half cheese for me and half double jalapeno for my wife. My nephew was staying with us and I was going to go thirds, but his was going to be pepperoni.
They couldn't do it. I asked "can you do half pep and half jalapeno?" Yes.
"Ok, then when you are putting on the pepperoni stop a little before half and then on the jalapeno side stop a little before half."
You'd have though I asked them the macroscopic cross section to absorption for a moderated neutron in u235. Mind blown. I just turned around and walked out dejected with my faith in humanity taken down a notch or two.
She did not that question amusing or apt.
I found it.
@T Rellis - they told me when I took this job there wouldn't be any math.
You'd have though I asked them the macroscopic cross section to absorption for a moderated neutron in u235. Mind blown. I just turned around and walked out dejected with my faith in humanity taken down a notch or two.
Not me, I always figure it is a sign of a bad economy when smart people wind up in jobs like that.
Nothing is so endearing about Americans as when we visit other countries and laugh at their traditions and odd ways.
Don't listen to the 'sausage and deep-fried meat' guys
Hey! I like sausage and deep-fried breaded meat! In fact, I could go for some breaded deep-fried sausage right now.
"I don't want to live in a country where the govt could prevent abortion."
Agreed. I saw the consequences of the ban as a student. Still, it is insane that late term abortions are permitted.
Nothing is so endearing about Americans as when we visit other countries and laugh at their traditions and odd ways.
Guess what, they do the same thing to us.
Hagar said...
Cubanbob,
Did you ever try ordering a hamburger with lettuce and tomato, but no pickles in his country?
8/5/15, 9:36 AM "
Oddly enough, yes! And was actually served one at the drive through. America, what a country! One time I also had the nerve to order a burger with lettuce, tomato and pickles but no onion and the girl at the BK actually got it. Amazing.
My wife and I went to Spain back in June for our honeymoon. It was amazing. Their food is really good, different but not necessarily better than quality American cuisine. We tried to eat at a lot of nice places, or at least places that looked like they had a lot of customers. I'd read that the best way to tell if the food is good in Spain (though, probably most other places as well) is how busy the place is, especially since many restaurants there are closed for large chunks of the day for siesta. Something that surprised me: they really like french fries over there. Not just in tourist areas, but in the backcountry too.
Every time we sat at a table to eat, they'd bring us a small bowl of green olives, sometimes in oil or spiced, sometimes looking plain. Neither of us enjoy olives, and we both felt bad for leaving them untouched the entire time.
The water was almost never free, unlike in America, although free refills were available for soda, but not uniformly so. We didn't drink much soda though. Sparkling water was almost always a spoken option ("sparkling or still?" was often the phrase used, when our waiter spoke English, which they mostly did and did well).
tim in vermont said...
Personally, I don't thing the PP scandal changes Althouse's views on abortion anymore than it changes mine, if I may speak for her from my understanding of her past comments.
I think her view is that abortion is the killing of a baby, who is a human being, who has been declared to be "not a legal person" by the Supreme Court of the United States.
I don't think she goes in much for the euphemisms and pretty lies about non human entities and obfuscatory language.
I feel the same way. That abortion is not pretty, that it is the killing of a human being that the court has declared to be without rights, but this is not a perfect world, and I don't want to live in a country where the govt could prevent abortion.
8/5/15, 9:46 AM
You do realize the inherit contradiction in your position. Human but without rights. You really want to go there?
"I always figure it is a sign of a bad economy when smart people wind up in jobs like that."
We are in an enduring bad economy right now, so you may assume your food server or grocery bagger has a Master's Degree or even a Doctorate.
Typo in last line Althouse.
Robert Cook said...
We are in an enduring bad economy right now, so you may assume your food server or grocery bagger has a Master's Degree or even a Doctorate.
But you should not assume that having a Master's Degree or even a Doctorate in any way implies that they are smart.
The only way the government can prevent abortions, is to sterilize Christian women by force.
"We are in an enduring bad economy right now, ..."
Not according to ARM. Under Obama's guidance, the economy is booming.
Coupe, is English your first language?
By the way, for the purpose of attempting to engage with our hostess, I believe this is the fallacy known as Aristotelian category error.
Robert Cook said...
"I always figure it is a sign of a bad economy when smart people wind up in jobs like that."
We are in an enduring bad economy right now, so you may assume your food server or grocery bagger has a Master's Degree or even a Doctorate.
8/5/15, 10:55 AM"
An excellent reason to vote against the Democrat-Socialists in every race from President to Governor to Mayor and From Congress to State Legislature and City Commission. Get rid of the parasites and the health of the host improves.
You do realize the inherit contradiction in your position. Human but without rights. You really want to go there?
The Supreme Court went there Roe v Wade. I don't like it, but I don't like a state that could actually prevent it either, and anything less is just hypocrisy. What amazes me is the number of abortion advocates who insist that a, to quote with their emphasis "the mother is a HUMAN BEING and has rights and the FETUS does not."
Technically it is all true, but the idea that the "FETUS" is not a "HUMAN BEING" is disgusting.
"But you should not assume that having a Master's Degree or even a Doctorate in any way implies that they are smart."
I don't...but who in America cares whether our citizens are smart? Being smart is often considered a negative quality by higher ups. Higher education merely provides the credentialing to verify that a given person has demonstrated the willingness and capacity to work hard at personal expense of time and money to meet externally imposed standards such that they may be depended upon to be a capable and compliant employee in whatever services the employer provides.
This was not always the case, but it is so now. Of course, a percentage of those with higher degrees are smart, but this is of less moment than the degree itself as a validation of employability. (Anymore, employability has more to do with one's willingness to work without compaint for poverty level wages with no benefits than with either smarts or credentials.)
"An excellent reason to vote against the Democrat-Socialists in every race from President to Governor to Mayor and From Congress to State Legislature and City Commission. Get rid of the parasites and the health of the host improves."
I don't know of any "Democrat-Socialists" in office in America, but the Democrats and the Republicans both serve the financial elites who are the parasites on the host of the people. There are no viable solutions to America's problems to be found in voting for either of our Corporate parties...at least, until corporate power is neutered. (Which is to say, not at all, given prevailing conditions.)
Being smart is often considered a negative quality by higher ups.
I think you are confusing being smart with being a commie. The intersection between those two sets of people is not significant. That might be why you think that being a commie makes you smart.
Bernie Sanders is a US Senator and calls himself a Democrat and a Socialist and has said that the two are "basically the same thing."
Can I have a latte but instead of milk can I have it with tomato juice and instead of espresso can I have it with vodka?
"I think you are confusing being smart with being a commie."
No, I'm not.
"Bernie Sanders is a US Senator and calls himself a Democrat and a Socialist and has said that the two are 'basically the same thing.'"
Bernie Sanders is a Democrat, and not a socialist, (despite what he may say about himself). Bernie flatters himself--and is certainly wrong about democrats and socialists being "basically the same thing"--but he votes along Democratic party lines.
"And the difference..." I ask, laughing blithely, "between a marinara with mozzarella and a margherita with garlic?" She did not that question amusing or apt.
Well one is a pizza that can't exist and the other is a pizza that can.
Is there anything about a margherita that would prevent you from putting garlic on it? (though I do wonder how the pizza maker assumed that garlic on a pizza would be an acceptable substitute to mozzarella)
Robert cook wrote:
Bernie Sanders is a Democrat, and not a socialist, (despite what he may say about himself). Bernie flatters himself--and is certainly wrong about democrats and socialists being "basically the same thing"--but he votes along Democratic party lines.
No one is a socialist in Robert cooks's world. Even self identified socialists.
Robert Cook wrote:
I don't know of any "Democrat-Socialists" in office in America, but the Democrats and the Republicans both serve the financial elites who are the parasites on the host of the people. There are no viable solutions to America's problems to be found in voting for either of our Corporate parties...at least, until corporate power is neutered. (Which is to say, not at all, given prevailing conditions.)
SO if they're both the same, then lets look elsewhere for reasons to vote for one and not the other. I'll choose the one that talks about lower taxes, balancing the budget and doesn't turn every single issue into a cultural Marxist cause on either sex, class or race.
If everyone is a socialist, at least everyone is not also a cunt.
No one is a socialist in Robert cooks's world. Even self identified socialists.
Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Kim Jong Un, Hugo Chavez none of them socialists! They all did it wrong!
And the difference..." I ask, laughing blithely, "between a marinara with mozzarella and a margherita with garlic?" She did not that question amusing or apt
I've yet to find a waiter or restaurant owner who finds smart-ass customers pleasant. I'm sure she's heard this person's "witticism" a billion times.
Bratty kid: "Hey Fred give me a pizza with extra cheese"
Fred: "Extra cheese"
BRatty kid: "Hold the tomato sauce"
Fred: HOLD THE TOMATO SAUCE?!
Bratty Kid: And hold the crust.
Fred: Hold the crust?! Hey Jimmy, give me a cheese with NUTHIN'
Jimmy: (lookin incredulous) NUTHIN'????????
A skilled epistemologist can always find reasons to explain why someone behaving badly is not REALLY one of their own kind, or why a massive social failure is not REALLY their fault. But to the rest of us unwashed, it just looks like shucking and jiving.
"And the difference..." I ask, laughing blithely, "between a marinara with mozzarella and a margherita with garlic?" She did not that question amusing or apt.
The difference is that the marinara with mozzarella cannot exist, therefore I would have nothing to spit in before I brought it to you. I'll be right back with your margherita with garlic.
Bobby: I'd like an omelet, plain, and a chicken salad sandwich on wheat toast, no mayonnaise, no butter, no lettuce. And a cup of coffee.
Waitress: A #2, chicken salad sand. Hold the butter, the lettuce, the mayonnaise, and a cup of coffee. Anything else?
Bobby: Yeah, now all you have to do is hold the chicken, bring me the toast, give me a check for the chicken salad sandwich, and you haven't broken any rules.
Waitress: You want me to hold the chicken, huh?
Bobby: I want you to hold it between your knees.
--Five Easy Pieces (1970)
I just watched that movie (Five Easy Pieces) the other day. Or much of it, it is still on my DVR. Can anybody tell me what it is actually about or why anybody should watch it?
Aside from watching Sally Struthers make a complete hash of a sex scene, I mean.
"Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Kim Jong Un, Hugo Chavez none of them socialists!"
Hitler certainly wasn't, even arguably.
"SO if they're both the same, then lets look elsewhere for reasons to vote for one and not the other."
I think such reasons are vanishingly scant, but, if pressed, I'd say the Democrats are not yet quite as crazy or as abjectly the punks of the plutocrats as the Republicans. But this is to compare shades of black.
abjectly the punks of the plutocrats as the Republicans
Yeah, that's why Obama collected the most money from Wall Street in 08 and 12.
Hitler claimed to be one, that's one argument, so he is arguably a socialist. I don't know why you have such problems with words.
What is the single, obvious, distinguishing characteristic that separates Adolph Hitler's politics from socialist epistemology?
(Lovely August afternoon. Are those crickets or cicada?)
Socialism is apparently the hardest political system in the world. It's been tried by different countries all over the world. After years, or decades, of death, slavery and economic stagnation, it turns out none of them were true socialism! No, really, we just need to try it one more time. This time for sure!
I say it's too hard for human beings to do socialism correctly, and if someone ever did, it'd just fall apart as soon as Dear Maximum Leader For Life dies. Nope, we should ban it, ban it with fire. And large rocks.
"Scott said...
What is the single, obvious, distinguishing characteristic that separates Adolph Hitler's politics from socialist epistemology?"
Duh.
Hitler was bad.
If socialism were a chemical compound and that compound had been proven to cause all of the effects that socialism has caused, deaths in the scores of millions, genocide, massive poverty and starvation, cannibalism, it would be banned by international treaty and if anyone were known to even be studying it, they would be subject to draconian inspection regimes to ensure that it be contained.
But as it is, you have fools pushing it again each day, hoping that all of the people aware of its inevitable effects die off so that they can infect a new generation which is without immunity.
I once had a similar conversation trying to get a coffee milkshake at a Dairy Queen in Tuscaloosa. I ended up buying a coffee and a vanilla milkshake and making it myself.
BTW, Roosevelt Roads is in Porto Rico, not Hawaii.
Pizza story=Lion story=deflect the PP story.
Since we've stumbled into another game of Socialist or Not? I'd like to suggest that Debbie Blabbermouth Schultzy is an excellent example of the idiopathetic tendency, similar to the Peter Principle, of the slowest wits among demoncrats rising, or really gurgling, to the top of their effluent caste.
The answer is so simple even a moron spokesman for the demonparty overlooked it: The difference between Democrats and Socialists is that Democrats at least pretend to appreciate Capitalism.
I did not have a deep fried breaded sausage for lunch, but I did have two deep fried breaded pork chops. However, in order to make it a healthy and light lunch I had them bring the brown gravy on the side.
Words matter; labels matter.
A marinara is, as they point out in the actual text, definitionally without mozzarella; adding it makes it no longer a marinara.
So the author was asking for "a cheeseless pizza, with cheese".
Instead, ask for "a pizza with tomato sauce, cheese, and garlic".
"Hitler claimed to be one, that's one argument, so he is arguably a socialist. I don't know why you have such problems with words."
1. Where did Hitler claim to be a socialist?
2. Since when do the labels applied to persons, parties, nations, products, services, or anything else, (whether by themselves or others), correspond to truth? People will lie about themselves as often as they lie about others.
As the saying goes, "Words are cheap." As another saying goes, "Actions speak louder than words." Just because someone says he's your friend doesn't mean he is. A con man will pander to you in order to steal everything you own.
I don't know why you have such problems with fundamental reality.
"Yeah, that's why Obama collected the most money from Wall Street in 08 and 12."
Oh, Obama is a punk of the plutocrats all right. He just isn't so naked about it...he pretends he's not, and acts as if he were serving the people he is conning. The Republicans proudly advertise how willing they are to serve their masters.
Robert Cook said...
1. Where did Hitler claim to be a socialist?
Germany. My God, man, learn a little history.
Look up Goebbel's "Why WE Are Socialists" speech.
If you want to nit-pick and say that Hitler's mouthpiece wasn't speaking for Adolf... and I am well aware you do not have the intellectual honesty to restrain yourself... then read Mein Kampf (for a start).
If you really wanted to educate yourself, you could. But that ain't the way you roll....or, rather, scurry.
"Germany. My God, man, learn a little history."
That's not an answer.
Hitler a Socialist? Humbug!
From the article:
"Before 1934 some in the party did promote anti-capitalist and socialist ideas, such as profit-sharing, nationalization and old-age benefits, but these were merely tolerated by Hitler as he gathered support, dropped once he secured power and often later executed, such as Gregor Strasser. There was no socialist redistribution of wealth or land under Hitler – although some property changed hands thanks to looting and invasion - and while both industrialists and workers were courted, it was the former who benefitted and the latter who found themselves the target of empty rhetoric. Indeed, Hitler became convinced that socialism was intimately connected to his even more long standing hatred - the Jews – and thus hated it even more. Socialists were the first to be locked up in concentration camps."
Jack Nicholson would have gotten the pizza, like he got the toast in 5 easy pieces.
Did anyone notice that Robert Reich called the Tea Party "wreckers"?
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Robert-Reich/2015/0803/Opinion-A-revolt-is-taking-place-against-the-ruling-class
Gosh, where's the pool for the first group accused of "hoarding"?
Dibs on "small business owners."
(Nope, no socialists nowhere.)
Yeah, I didn't read enough prior comments. :(
"There was no socialist redistribution of wealth or land under Hitler "
Cookie, you're confusing fascism and communism. The Soviet Union was fascist in reality but gave the suckers the illusion of Socialism. Mussolini was smarter than that and Hitler followed his lead on domestic matters.
"the financial elites who are the parasites on the host of the people. "
OK Cookie, you're a communist. I'm convinced.
"Look up Goebbel's "Why WE Are Socialists" speech."
One might as well look at Bernie Madoff's guarantees of fiscal security and handsome financial returns to his investors for an example of "truth in advertising," or any con man's spiel!
Jeez...how did you flint-eyed skeptics become so gullible? Oh, yes...because it suits your biases.
"There was no socialist redistribution of wealth or land under Hitler – although some property changed hands thanks to looting and invasion - and while both industrialists and workers were courted, it was the former who benefitted and the latter who found themselves the target of empty rhetoric."
First, I like that even a post about pizza toppings turned into an argument about fascism vs. socialism, but here we are.
Second, there was obviously redistribution of wealth and land under Hitler--and like any totalitarian regime (whether it calls itself socialist or a "people's republic" or nationalist) it was redistributed from those who the regime decided were enemies to those who the regime decided were friends. In Hitler's case, much of this was political (anyone opposed to the regime clearly was going to lose) as well as racial--but qualitatively no different from what Stalin did, taking from poor peasants and giving it to his government cronies to manage as collective farms. The distinction is one without a difference.
Now, there may not have been as much redistribution in some regimes vs. others, but where is the cutoff? For all practical purposes, totalitarianism has the same effect on the people living in the country. You're fine so long as the regime values you and favors you, but the minute that's not the case it's goodnight.
"Cookie, you're confusing fascism and communism. The Soviet Union was fascist in reality but gave the suckers the illusion of Socialism. Mussolini was smarter than that and Hitler followed his lead on domestic matters."
I would agree with you: Soviet Russia was never truly socialist, but was fascist--state capitalism. So, too, were Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany.
"For all practical purposes, totalitarianism has the same effect on the people living in the country."
I would agree with this, as well.
Cutting-edge criticism of theoretical Italian food.
Jeez...how did you flint-eyed skeptics become so gullible? Oh, yes...because it suits your biases.
Right, because you just "look up" the answer in approved leftist texts that provide you with whatever rhetoric you need for whatever argument you happen to be in.
Do you really think that these texts provide you with some kind of 'Truth'?
nationalization and old-age benefits, but these were merely tolerated by Hitler as he gathered support, dropped once he secured power
So after he secured power, he returned the nationalized companies to their rightful owners?
"But you should not assume that having a Master's Degree or even a Doctorate in any way implies that they are smart."
Eons ago, while working in a "_________" Studies department at the local state university and while Obama was running for POTUS, one of the professors told me that Obama was the only one who voted against the Iraq War. I told her that Obama wasn't even in Congress when the vote was taken. She said that he was and that he voted against it. She said she would go look it up and prove it to me. I am still waiting for her to finish looking it up.
Shortly after Obama was elected, a different professor told me that Obama had closed Guantánamo. I said no, he signed an order to close it within a year.
Both of them PhDs. I don't think of them as stupid. They are smart in their narrow fields of expertise. But I expect someone with a doctorate to have done a lot of research in their past and it was clear neither of them had bothered to confirm the "facts" behind their statements.
As the only person on our floor (or entire building) who did not like Obama, I was eventually forced to keep quiet about Obama. Although the department saw nothing wrong with posting a picture of Obama and the staff taken before Obama gave a speech outside our building. I was for Hillary then, but not now, after Benghazi.
I am still trying to figure why all those who wanted Hillary out of the race in 2008 are behind her now--especially that loathsome Donna Brazile. I thought it was more historic to elect Hillary than a half-white Obama.
Hitler surely redistributed property from certain religious sects. You may've heard of that. From some countries, too.
He also outlawed the sale of agrarian land. Workers were given a national union that provided them with a wage increase, paid vacations and childcare, board representation, improved working conditions and profit-sharing.
Your arguments don't hold water, Cookie.
And here, in his own words, just a simple example, from page 867 of Mein Kampf:
For the National Socialist union, therefore, a strike is a
measure which can and must be applied only as long as there
exists no National Socialist folkish State. The latter, how-
ever, has to take over instead of the mass struggle of the
two great groups employers and employees (which in its
consequences, by decrease of production, always injured the
national community as a whole!) the legal care and the
legal protection of all individuals. The economic chambers will
have to be entrusted with the obligation of keeping the
national economy going and of abolishing defects and faults
injurious to it. What today is fought out by a struggle of
millions must one day find its settlement in estate chambers
and in the central economic parliament. Thus the employers
and workers will no longer rage against one another in
wage and wage-scale battles, injuring the economic existence
of both of them, but they will solve these problems in com-
mon in a higher instance which above all has forever to
have before its eyes, in brilliant letters, the welfare of the
national community and of the State.
Here, too, as everywhere, the iron-like principle has to
hold that the fatherland comes first and thereafter the
party.
The task of the National Socialist union is the education
and the preparation for these very aims, which means then:
common work by all for the preservation and the safeguarding
of our nation and its State, corresponding to the abilities and
forces, inborn in the individual and developed by the national
community.
You are a Socialist , Cookie...just like the Soviets and just like the Nazi's.
You know it, too.
-----------
Cookie said:
nationalization and old-age benefits, but these were merely tolerated by Hitler as he gathered support, dropped once he secured power
Prove it.
But you should not assume that having a Master's Degree or even a Doctorate in any way implies that they are smart.
My statement has always been: When you get a BS, you know a some stuff about a lot, with a peak in knowledge somewhere in your major. When you get a MS, you know a whole lot about not very much, and somewhat less about the rest of everything, with a much larger peak in your major. When you get a PhD, you know everything about almost nothing, and very little about everything else.
The area under the knowledge curve remains the same. When you have a PhD, you've created a dirac delta function of knowledge.
I have a co-worker who orders pizza without tomato sauce. They make it for him too. Apparently it tastes just fine. Then again this is New Jersey where we think chain pizza is about one step up from eating a cardboard box.
Signora, you did not ask for Signor Cetriolo to be wearing a raincoat.
Signor Cetriolo never wears a raincoat.
With a raincoat he is no longer Signor Cetriolo.
I am Laslo.
The economic chambers will have to be entrusted with the obligation of keeping the national economy going and of abolishing defects and faults injurious to it. What today is fought out by a struggle of millions must one day find its settlement in estate chambers and in the central economic parliament. Thus the employers and workers will no longer rage against one another in wage and wage-scale battles, injuring the economic existence of both of them, but they will solve these problems in common in a higher instance which above all has forever to have before its eyes, in brilliant letters, the welfare of the national community and of the State - A. Hitler
Wow! This argument is over.
Sigivald: Words matter; labels matter.
A marinara is, as they point out in the actual text, definitionally without mozzarella; adding it makes it no longer a marinara.
So the author was asking for "a cheeseless pizza, with cheese".
You're contradicting yourself. "Words matter," and the word "marinara" has nothing to do with cheese, presence or absence. It means "sailor."
So it's not like asking for "a cheeseless pizza, with cheese" at all. It's more like asking for "a Whopper, with bacon." The normal, traditional Whopper recipe does not include bacon, for sure, but the word "Whopper" does not mean "baconless."
Distinctions without differences: Naziism/Fascism vs Communism/Socialism. Like the Miss America Pagent vs the Miss Universe Pagent, national vs international; but the game is the same, the premises are identical, and the players are primarily concerned about how they conform to the arbitrary judgments of the crusty old men who run the shows.
I'm hallucinating. I thought Althouse posted something about service in a restaurant in Italy ... I was going to say that if you don't like local customs in another country, there's always a nice plane ride back home. But give me a sec and I'll come up with something about Hitler, or fascism, or communism, or socialism. But not pizza. Definitely not pizza.
Typical uglius Americanus lording it over in the European colonies ignorant of the local customs.
Alex, this was on the BBC site. Are you sure it's not a Limeycus snaggletoothi?
So Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Hillary and Bernie walk into a pizza joint, and try to order a pizza before the concentration camps, gulags, re-education camps and are full. They end up agreeing the US is horrible and split a large thin crust plain cheese pie.
Funny, huh!
Tim in VT:
Whenever I start a list of "countries I don't want to live in", one where the government can declare you an in-person always tops the list.
Un-person!
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