July 10, 2015

"The flag was to come down amid heavy security during a Friday morning event that followed days of emotional debate in the Legislature..."

"... and, on Thursday, the final approval of Gov. Nikki R. Haley, who pledged that the flag would be lowered 'with dignity.'..."
The flag will be housed at the Confederate Relic Room and Military Museum, a state-supported museum near the Capitol, and its pole will be removed from the grounds of the State House.

47 comments:

Michael K said...

Removing the flag from the capitol is OK but the hysteria about the flag is more leftist attack on Republicans.

David Hampton said...

I;m still trying to figure out the logic behind this decision. What is the difference between the rainbow flag of diversity and the confederate flag? ISIS flag? American Flag? Flags are a part of history that make up the tapestry of our country's life. Pull enough loose threads out and the quilt of many colors falls apart. Celebrate our history and respect the journey this great nation embarked upon. Learn from the past and prepare for the future. wouldn't it be pretty if we could all, individually, remove all the loose threads from our journey through life. It would also destroy who we are and who we hope to be. Some children never want to grow up.

traditionalguy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Coupe said...

They should raise the homosexual flag in it's place. If it's good enough for the White House...

traditionalguy said...

They should play Battle Hymn of the Republic. And the Flag itself can be sent directly to NYC and placed under the GAR Plaza's Tecumseh Sherman statute riding on his horse with its rear hoof already treading down a Georgia pine bough.

To quote a great American, "At this point, what difference does it make."

My worry is where will Richmond, Virginia find to put all those Confederate Memorials down the center of their main street going on for miles and miles.

Bobby said...

David,

I think the main difference is that one was being flown over the capitol and the others (ISIS or rainbow) were not. Certainly, there's a place for the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia and the Flag of the Confederate States of America, but is that rightful place- you know- for the state government to make it co-equal with the Flag of the US and the Flag of the State of South Carolina over the capitol? Not really for me to say or know, but the state legislature and governor of South Carolina have determined it's not and I suppose that's as legitimate a process as any we have in this country.

MadisonMan said...

Missing from the piece: Gov. Haley is a Republican. The flag first went up at the order of a Democratic Governor.

Would that Political Parties be missing from the piece if Republicans had first hoisted it and Haley were a Democrat?

Tank said...

gamergate lesson

At the first push from SJW, Haley caved and removed the flag, which had nothing to do with nine people dying, and will not improve anything in any way, but will make some people feel good, and get back at southern white people for whom it is a symbol of the best of the South (no, not the slavery part).

The lesson: Haley has no backbone and will cave with little pressure.

Bruce Hayden said...

Missing from the piece: Gov. Haley is a Republican. The flag first went up at the order of a Democratic Governor.

I don't think that this can be minimized. Also note that the Confederate flags were designed by Democrats, and flown by them. They were always a Democrat thing. So, the Republicans don't really have a stake in them here. The Democrats have always been the racist party, and the Republicans the anti-racist party. Nothing has changed, so it shouldn't be a surprise that Republicans were so willing to so quickly remove this Democratic symbol of racism.

Paddy O said...

"get back at southern white people for whom it is a symbol of the best of the South"

Unfortunately, the good southern people long let it get co-opted to represent the worst of the South, including slavery, but more relevant Jim Crow, white power, etc. A symbol that has been co-opted becomes tarnished for what it might better represent.

Bobby said...

Paddy,

Certainly, most all of us would probably agree that that's what the Nazis did to the swastika, which was a sacred symbol in Buddhism and Hinduism. I would also say that's what the hippies did with the "V sign"- those fingers were used to signify Victory during WWII, but the hippies co-opted it and turned it into an anti-war symbol so that today it means something very different.

Matthew Sablan said...

On a purely partisan note: Good on Republicans for lowering the flag that a Democrat raised.

rhhardin said...

It's hysteria practice for the election. MSM drill.

traditionalguy said...

The good southern white people are relieved to see that flag's misuse gone. It had been a Army's banner, but that was Army disbanded in 1865 and that flag was put away.

Then in the days of the KKK as a political force from the late 1880s it was misused by a new generation of terrorist thugs to intimidate the good southern whites who needed threatening not to break segregation barrier with their black friends. Those KKK SOBs were neutered and forgotten after WWII and Truman's 1948 victory. But a few stayed on in the US Senate by seniority rules until the 1970s.

It's 45 years past time that misuse of the Stars and bars ended. No one will miss it but a few mentally ill people and the SAEs.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

"and its pole will be removed from the grounds of the State House."

mccullough said...


Sell the pole to a strip club. Good fiscal decision.

EDH said...

"and its pole will be removed"

A lot of that going around.

Anonymous said...

I'm whistling Dixie.

tim in vermont said...

I think we should seize the "General Lee" and crush it on video at some junk yard.

Really rub their nose in it. It's the only way they will learn!

Babaluigi said...

I am not sure how the co-opting of a word, symbol, or flag can be halted...once the ball is rolling, there it goes. Just because no one was running up to the Klan and ripping the flag out of their arms, does not mean they were met with tacit approval. Of course, there is no agreement as to how exactly the flag should be regarded as per its place in history, and there more serious problems arise.

I have spent time at the Vicksburg National Military Park, which includes some of the actual battlegrounds, where General Grant led the successful and hard-fought 47-day siege of Vicksburg. The Vicksburg National Cemetery is the resting place of 17,000 Union soldiers, with some in excess of 12,000 of whom were re-interred from other battle grave sites throughout the South. There are no Confederates buried there, so there never has been an issue of that flag on those grounds...There are, however State memorials throughout the park, are those to be excised in a clean sweep of history?

I have never been to Gettysburg, but it is my understanding of the reenactment there is that it is the pinnacle of the genre. They have very strong rules about "authenticity" (look at "Impression Standards" on the Gettysburg reenactment website). I am curious as to how this flag brouhaha is going to fall out there...it is a National Park, so maybe it will not be allowed?

Bobby said...

Baba,

I don't have the answers, but I do believe that the issue of Confederate monuments and flags in national preservations and other government-sponsored historical environments should be kept distinctly separate from whether or not a Confederate battle flag should be flown over a state capitol. Those are two very different issues, in my opinion.

My name goes here. said...

Bobby, the flag was not flying over the capitol, not today, not yesterday. Back in the 60's democrat governor Fritz Hollings put it up to fly over the capitol building. In 2000 it was brought down and placed in a memorial on the grounds of the state capitol, but was no longer being flown over it.

Babaluigi said...

I agree, Bobby...but this has quickly gotten so far out of hand...

I do understand how jarring an "ugly" symbol taken out of context can be. There are swastika medallions on the (cast iron?) porch railings of the West Baden Springs Hotel at French Lick, Indiana. Damn nazis!...Except it was built in 1902... It was a bit of a start to see them as we lazed on the rocking chairs, but they were decorative elements at the time, and Adolf was just yet 3 years old...

...But I do believe context is important. When our children were young, we stumbled upon a very small reenactment of a small Civil War battle. There were no signs about the thing. We were walking down the road from the parking lot to the buildings we wanted to see, when suddenly, the mounted Calvary (Yankees!) charged by! It was very exciting, and as we rounded the hills and saw the fighting in the woods, it truly drew us in. They were not just playing, (although it looked like great fun) but had maps and were playing the battle out how it was fought, the best they could with such a small contingent (the "dead" would rise up from the ground and take a position at the line after the fighting moved away.)

This truly was a war which set neighbor against neighbor, brother against brother. It was brutal in every way possible. The arguments can go on forever as to the "true cause" of the war, but I believe they obscure the most important lessons for our nation. Yes, the "North" "won", and the "South" "lost", and despite all of our differences and bitter recriminations, we went on to become the strongest Nation in the world. We were forged in the American Revolution, and were tempered in the fires of the Civil War. This should not be forgotten.

If "The Confederacy" is erased from the memory of history, and if it goes that memorials and monuments are dragged down, and the names and places are swept away, what fills that empty hole?

Anthony said...

Funny, when a white guy kills some black people it's all about racist whites, but when an illegal alien Mexican kills a white woman. . . .*chirp chirp*

tim in vermont said...

I never knew lefties were so offended by "sedition" before this whole flag thing came out, but it turns out that it bothers them a great deal, apparently.

Maybe the "Vermont Republic" flag secessionists are flying around here should be next? Though it only seems to fly a lot when there is a Republican in the White House.

tim in vermont said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vermont_Republic

It seems like they have other things in common with the Confederacy besides wishing to secede. They are also against the idea of corporations.

Bobby said...

My name goes here, good point -- "over the Capitol grounds" is a better phrasing than "over the Capitol."

Baba, I get what you're saying- I mean, I don't see how removing all evidence and pretending like something didn't happened is any better than whitewashing the facts and pretending that something in our past wasn't as bad as it appears to subsequent generations... Frankly, it could be a lot worse, if you look at (for example) Japanese revisionist history with respect to their WWII-era military conquests of China and Korea. But as I alluded to earlier, it's really not for me to tell South Carolina how they should or should not display their protocol and it's been decided by their elected leaders- I'm a Californian living in Virginia.

However, I will say that I'm a West Point grad and we have a few monuments for our Confederate alumni (as well as a barracks named after Lee) back at the alma mater- I'd be writing the Superintendant and our Board of Visitors against removing a single one of those if it ever comes to that.

JoyD said...

When a symbol of Southern unity and pride has been dragged down, over many years, to represent hostility and hatred, then it's time for that particular symbol to move to a museum of Southern history. Of course they can carry that flag during reenactments. There it is presented historically.

Where I live there are few Southerners but when you see a pickup roaring down the street, driven by a wild eyed skinny boy, flying the Confederate flag, you can bet it's not respect he has in mind.

Birches said...

I was commenting to my spouse that as a Westerner I didn't understand this whole flag debate at all. I completely understand the rationale for taking the flag down, but I didn't understand why people would still want it there.

Then my spouse (who lived in Kentucky for awhile) said, "Well are you offended when you see a bunch of Mexican kids waving around a Mexican flag?"

Me: "Of course not. They're just proud of their heritage." (I've purchased my son Mexican flag tshirts).

Him: "Exactly. It's just Southern Pride."

Me: Mind. blown.

Some Seppo said...

you can bet it's not respect he has in mind.

Read my mind right now, JoyD.

Gahrie said...

@Birches:

Now contemplate the fact that a judge has ruled that a school in California may ban American flag t-shirts as divisive, even as they allow Mexican flags, and Mexican flag t-shirts.

http://www.americanfreedomlawcenter.org/press-release/ninth-circuit-upholds-ban-on-american-flag-shirts-in-a-california-high-school/

Levi Starks said...

There was a time when it was considered honorable for the victors to make a few symbolic gestures toward the defeated, and allow them to maintain a small sense of dignity.
With the left of today that is no longer the case, and is well demonstrated in the flag controversy.
You will be surprised I think to see how quickly the victors in the homosexual marriage arena move to cast universal shame upon all peoples, and organizations which ever opposed it.

Bobby said...

Birches,

But there are Americans who do get bothered by people in America waving the Mexican flag (for example here) -- including, I suspect, some number of pseudo-nativists who probably think it's okay if not desirable to wave a Confederate battle flag over the state Capitol grounds (and perhaps they are only equal in number to liberals who supported the student waving the Mexican flag but readily condemn the Confederate flag). To me, it all just further validates Nietzsche's perspectivism.

But it's ironic how easily humans can know what others mean when they display a symbol, while refusing to acknowledge that the display of their own symbols can be interpreted in any other way but their own. You have clearly thought through that, but many others can't seem to be bothered to do that.

tim in vermont said...

Where I live there are few Southerners but when you see a pickup roaring down the street, driven by a wild eyed skinny boy, flying the Confederate flag, you can bet it's not respect he has in mind.

You see that all the time, right? I mean not as an image planted in your head by Hollywood, but that is a thing you see in real life?

Maybe he does have respect in mind, if said boy actually exists. Maybe he would like to be thought of as fully human and as a fully accepted person in the United States, not some kind of semi-human archetype, one of the many scary beings that haunt the liberal imagination?

Naaah!

I see that Bubba Watson is painting an American Flag on the top of the "General Lee," which he bought. Wiping away that much more history. When is he going to rename it to the "General Grant" or "General William Tecumseh Sherman"?

JoyD said...

Yup, saw him this week, Tim, on my street, doing 50 in a 25. I'm not "fully accepting" of his behavior, you're right about that anyway.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Are they taking down the flagpole too because (a) it would be a racist reminder of the confederate flag that used to hang there, (b) it would be a sad reminder for those who wish it was still hanging there, or (c) they are worried about what other flag might be hung there in its place?

tim in vermont said...

I believe you JoyD.

I believe that you could see that he was a skinny teenager with "wild eyes" too. Yup. And I am certain that you knew what he was thinking.

Maybe he is tired of being shit on by the self declared elite of this country? Naah!

tim in vermont said...

Don't worry JoyD, it will never be necessary for you to deeply examine your own assumptions about anything, or your own premises. You hate all the right people! Doesn't that make you feel good? That's what bigotry does, makes the bigot feel superior. It's a sweet feeling, isn't it, that little frisson of certain superiority over that boy who should probably be wearing a leash!

Anonymous said...

Everything said about the Confederate flag has also been said about the US Flag.

Where I live there are few Southerners but when you see a pickup roaring down the street, driven by a wild eyed skinny boy, flying the Confederate flag, you can bet it's not respect he has in mind.

Change "Confederate flag" in the sentence above to "US Flag" and how does that change anything?

You get the idea.

tim in vermont said...

Imagine going through life defending views that have been imposed on you by the culture, teachers, professors, Comedy Central entertainers, writers, etc.

None of these views having been arrived at through careful consideration of the actual people around you and the struggles they may have encountered in their own life, or which struggles they will be subjected to over their life.

A poor white kid flying a Confederate flag, who never oppressed anybody, born after Jim Crown, attending integrated schools, probably has black friends, condemned to vilification by the culture for his "white privilege" when if he showed up at a cocktail party in Manhattan, for example, some sort of bouncer would certainly be summoned and the party goers would be clucking over their disgust for a good hour after he was gone...

ThreeHeaded Throop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ThreeHeaded Throop said...

Democrats were fine with Confederate pride until the south started voting Republican.

This sort of thing is never about what it is purported to be about. This one is not mainly a race thing. It's a class thing. Working class whites are given a small demonstration of who is in charge. It's mostly whites doing the chastising, too. On behalf of their pets on the 21st century plantation.

Tomorrow it will be something else. What it is doesn't matter. Only who is to be humbled by whom matters.

Unknown said...

---wild eyed skinny boy, flying the Confederate flag, you can bet it's not respect he has in mind.---

Yes, sex and saying F’you to all those he considers elites.

Unknown said...

----There was a time when it was considered honorable for the victors to make a few symbolic gestures toward the defeated, and allow them to maintain a small sense of dignity.

^^^^^

This. “With Malice Towards None”


--- With the left of today that is no longer the case, and is well demonstrated in the flag controversy.

So they will be shocked when there is violent back lash.

lee said...

joy d: as a southern boy, I can bet you you're an idiot. and extremely ignorant of other's ways.

Birches said...

@ bobby

Oh I know there are Americans who have a problem with the Mexican flag, probably a number of commenters on this blog. I've never seen it that way. That's what made the realization so mindblowing.

Mick said...

It was a war of Northern aggression, not a "Civil War" for control of the country. The South wanted to secede due to onerous taxes imposed on its exports by the Federal government. It is estimated that southern states paid 70% of the US tax base at the time.
Lincoln could care less about the slaves, and wanted them to leave, and also viewed them as inferior.

History is told by the victors.

http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/Articles/tabid/109/ID/3336/The-Confederate-Flag-Needs-To-Be-Raised-Not-Lowered.aspx

Obama, the Usurper and divider. The Killer of America.