July 20, 2015

How smart is Trump? Show us the transcripts!

I'm reading "What Donald Trump was up to while John McCain was a prisoner of war" in The Washington post and get to this:
... Trump attended Fordham for two years before transferring to the University of Pennsylvania, where he took economics courses at its famed Wharton School. (According to a book by Gwenda Blair, Trump was allowed to transfer into the Ivy League school because of family connections, and has exaggerated his performance at Penn.)
Let's see the transcripts! I won't say that all candidates should always show us the transcript, but there is special reason to make this demand of Trump:

1. Trump made a huge deal out of Obama's birth certificate. He's a show-me-the-documentation guy. Here he is in 2011:



2. Trump seems to enjoy saying that John McCain was last in his class at Annapolis, and he blithely equates class standing with intelligence: "Graduated last in his class at Annapolis--dummy!"

3. Trump points to his college background as proof of his own intelligence: "I went to the Wharton School of Business. I'm, like, a really smart person."

4. Trump wanted to see Obama's college transcripts: "I heard he was a terrible student, terrible. How does a bad student go to Columbia and then to Harvard?... I have friends who have smart sons with great marks, great boards, great everything and they can't get into Harvard... We don't know a thing about this guy. There are a lot of questions that are unanswered about our president."

5. As you can see from the quote in #4, Trump relied on the argument that a degree from a fine school doesn't mean so much if you got in through race-based affirmative action, and Trump himself is accused — in that Gwenda Blair book cited above and discussed at the link in #4 — of getting into Penn through wealth-based affirmative action. Let him disprove that by showing the Fordham transcripts.

6. There's some criticism of Trump that he "allowed the media to report that he graduated first in his class from Wharton," but "the commencement program from 1968 does not list him as graduating with honors of any kind." I don't know how much the inaction of "allowing" the media to report flattering untruths should count against Trump. It's the media's job to get things right, but there's some relevance to the point made at #3.

In short: Let's see Trump's transcripts!

146 comments:

cubanbob said...

Deflection. Trump is never going to be president. Instead let's see Obama's since he is actually the president along with Kerry's and Hillary's since they are the dummies who negotiated the imbecilic Iran deal among other stupidities too numerous to mention.

Humperdink said...

Trump is going to continue to get tangled up in his boxers. And he will continue to double, triple, quadruple down on any scatter brained comment. I am beginning to see a third party candidate and an HRC win.

Is there any record of the Trumpster apologizing for anything, ever?

MadisonMan said...

How much is Trump being paid by the Clintons?

Follow the money.

rhhardin said...

Men are more intelligent, and women are better at grades.

The thing about Obama's transcript would be what courses he took.

MayBee said...

Amen, MadMan

rhhardin said...

Trump was right on McCain. The test is whether he folds and goes PC with an apology.

Not going along with what everybody tells you to think is today's missing virtue.

The Drill SGT said...

Really, Who gives an F'

We implicitly know that regardless of the WH and the MSM meme of "smartest POTUS evah" that Obama's grades must have been mediocre, else they would have been released...

Levi Starks said...

What do you call the person who finished last in his medical class?


Doctor.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Did you ask for Obama's transcripts in 2007/8? He was touted as a genius, so by your criteria, you should have.

madAsHell said...

This is nothing more than Trump's campaign donation to Hillary.

dbp said...

"How does a bad student go to Columbia and then to Harvard?"

Are you kidding? Ever heard of affirmative action?

I will give Trump this: For something like two years, the Obama fan boys made the false claim that there was no birth certificate to show and further that if there was it wouldn't make a difference to birthers. When Trump made a stink about it, somehow the certificate materialized and the birther movement died.

Michael K said...

"I am beginning to see a third party candidate and an HRC win."

I am too but I also see Kerry jumping in if Hillary fades enough. I think that is why (aside from his native treasonous instincts) Kerry went along with the Iran fan dance, He still has hopes of "reporting for duty" again.

"What do you call the person who finished last in his medical class? "

Radiologist.

Trump is a rich man's son. Of course, McCain was an admiral's son but he seems to have resisted the role and that may explain his grades and his rather mediocre flight cadet performance. He did well enough in combat and his heroism was his refusal to take the offer of early release from the NV.

Gusty Winds said...

Trump went too far but so did McCain when he said Trump had, "...fired up the crazies". That's a low blow toward a lot of people, and Trump shot one back. Good. Put your big boy pants on.

Trump will not be President, nor the nominee, but I love that he's making everyone uncomfortable. And screw all this 'damage the brand' talk. Hillary is an disingenuous, dishonest, hypocritical idiot, and that is the Democrat Feminist brand laid before us. And we're required to take Bernie Sanders seriously too. Whatever.

Obama's birth certificate was trumped up, and Trump was right. No one in Washington wants to face the Constitutional crisis that would be created if they faced the truth.

It's easy to brush off Trump, by saying "well it's Donald Trump". Kind of like law students do with Scalia. That way you don't have to think about it.

David said...

Transcripts?

I'm waiting for the tax returns.

William said...

Trump is smart in the way a NYC real estate developer is smart. Obama is smart in the way a university lecturer is smart. Advantage Obama on the scoring system devised and maintained by university lecturers.........Trump in addition to being really, really smart is really, really rich. So was his father. If Trump had put his father's wealth into bank CDs, he would probably still be really, really rich. That said, Trump has had some success in life, and life is the ultimate IQ test.......I wouldn't put success in real estate development high up on my list of Presidential qualifications, but I would give it a higher weight than community organizing or marrying well.

Bay Area Guy said...

Any GOP candidate who refuses to pledge to not make a 3rd Party run should be widely ignored and marginalized as a trouble-maker.

AllenS said...

You can criticize Trump all you want to, but he certainly didn't proceed through school and life because of affirmative action.

Original Mike said...

For the record, McCain was not last in his class; he was 5th from the bottom (894th out of 899).

Hagar said...

I do not think Obama got into Columbia and Harvard by affirmative action. I think Bill Ayers' Weatherman network carried him, and at least at Columbia, Ayers' parents paid his tuition.
And I would suspect his grades would show just fine; more interesting would be to see what courses he took from which professors.

And the birth certificate thing is ridiculous. Obama was born just 54 years ago to the daughter of a well-known family. There are lots of people alive today that would remember it well. Even in Hawaii, that was not an everyday occurrence back then.

Ann Althouse said...

"Trump was right on McCain. The test is whether he folds and goes PC with an apology."

He's already made it obvious that he won't.

H said...

Nobody seriously thinks that college transcripts are that important. The whole purpose of the request is to embarrass the candidate. But Trump has been aggressive about trying to embarrass others with this line of attack, and turnabout is fair play. Hold him vigorously to the standards to which he tried to hold others. I kind of expect mainstream media to ask Trump over and over "will you release your transcripts?" "Why haven't you released your transcripts?"

exhelodrvr1 said...

Hagar,
Considering where he lived as a child, where his father was from, and what his relatives on his father's side said about his birthplace, it's not ridiculous.

Unfortunately, the media was so unwilling to look into anything (Rev Wright associations, Ayers, academic record, "successes" as a community organizer, how Michelle got her lucrative job, etc.) potentially negative for him, that they didn't do their job. At that point, it probably would have been smarter to drop the issue, as continuing to push it likely gained him sympathy.

Laslo Spatula said...

Bringing up Trump's transcripts will backfire on Walker.

Devious.

I am Laslo.

MayBee said...

And the birth certificate thing is ridiculous. Obama was born just 54 years ago to the daughter of a well-known family. There are lots of people alive today that would remember it well. Even in Hawaii, that was not an everyday occurrence back then.

Obviously, Obama was born in the US. But there is no denying his campaign handled the birth certificate thing oddly.
And the thing about lots of people alive today remembering it, is that lots of people don't. The press hauled out some woman who was brunching and overheard a doctor say he had delivered a baby named "Barack" as proof Obama was born in Hawaii. That's weird.

Again, I believe he was born in Hawaii. But there was something hinky about Obama's birth, his parent's relationship, and the story the campaign told. Obama and his mom living in Washington state about 2 weeks after the birth, for example. No marriage license on record.
I think we forget how truly duplicitous Obama was wrt his biography leading up to the 2008 election. As you mention, Hagar, his relationship with the Ayers was then and remains a secretive detail.

So there's no wonder oppo research on Obama turned up some holes, and I can see why people like Hillary and Trump wanted to walk through. Obama's past is shady and hidden.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I'm no fan of Trump, whose main talents seem to be self-promotion and talking people into giving him money even though his ventures seem to end up bankrupt, nor of McCain, who seems to fancy himself some sort of elder statesman instead of the politician who nearly ended up indicted for corruption that he is.

But what Trump said was beyond the pale.

tim in vermont said...

Trump doesn't have to do anything but pander to a hard core five percent needed to strip away to get Hillary elected.

No squishy talk needed when you don't care about winning moderates.

TreeJoe said...

I'm not a birther and generally not a conspiracy theorist. I just want to make the observation that, to my knowledge, it's been a decade since Obama entered the limelight at the 2004 DNC convention speech and nearly 7 years since he won a presidential election - and I feel comfortable saying we know almost nothing more about his past than we did when he was elected.

We know that Obama lied and downplayed his relationships with numerous major influencers on his theology and ideology - Jeremiah Wright was simply someone who had his sermons recorded and was well known for his beliefs, and was only discarded once those beliefs were well publicized.

Most presidents have parts of their past they wish to leave in the past. That's understandable. But the holes in his life where there should be records - both early childhood and in college - are startling in a 2-term president.

I wonder if we'll find out in a few decades when the biographies are being circulated.

MayBee said...

My guess is Obama's people weren't 100% sure he was born in Hawaii, rather than Washington. But they knew his early life wasn't what he had written, so that's what they were trying to hide.

Trump is anti-Obama and anti-Jeb. Who does that help, again?

Interesting,not crazy said...

" Of course, McCain was an admiral's son but he seems to have resisted the role and that may explain his grades and his rather mediocre flight cadet performance. He did well enough in combat and his heroism was his refusal to take the offer of early release from the NV."

Question seen on another blog: Was he offered release before or after being tortured,? More than once? Has it been verified? I always took it as common knowledge, but these days everything is questioned.

MayBee said...

Exactly, TreeJoe.


Andrew Sullivan disparaged John McCain's service during the 2008 election. Obama still invited Andrew to meet him, and quoted him in speeches. So this isn't exactly new territory. Trump is as serious a candidate for office as Andrew Sullivan.

Matt Sablan said...

Republicans, including Trump, need to stop releasing information just because they are asked, since their Democratic opponents are never held to the same standard. [The birth certificate was a sad Clinton desperation play that, unfortunately, also infected some on the right.]

Matt Sablan said...

"Andrew Sullivan disparaged John McCain's service during the 2008 election."

-- And the media and left still consider Sullivan a legitimate person to listen to, but not Trump. Why? Because they don't care about insulting John McCain. They just need a club to beat someone they don't like, and this is as good a one as any.

LilyBart said...


Where are the Obama transcripts? We were told he was probably the smartest president in history, ever! But no transcripts.

If seeing transcripts means something to you, did you demand to see Obama's?


rhhardin said...

But what Trump said was beyond the pale.

You've got the pale in the infield.

Call it pale privilege.

Matt Sablan said...

I think we have to just accept that there are two different pales. For the Republicans, the pale is very, very close to them. Almost anything can be interpreted beyond the pale. For Democrats, you can wish your political enemies' grandchildren die of aids and that's not beyond the pale.

Two different pales, and Trump is serving a useful reminder to Republicans that the Media Hates You.

Tank said...

Trump has a long history of actually DOING BIG THINGS AND GETTING THINGS DONE. He doesn't need to prove anything. Unlike Zero and the Big V who had/have no actual accomplishments.

Brando said...

"How much is Trump being paid by the Clintons?"

The "McCain is no hero" comments clinched it. There is no way anyone serious about the GOP nomination would claim that McCain was not a hero because "he got captured". And it's just about the level of low I expect from the Clinton machine.

Mike Sylwester said...

Trump made a huge deal out of Obama's birth certificate.

The US Constitution says that the US President must satisfy a requirement related to his birth circumstances.

Therefore the public should have been allowed to examine a state government's one-page civil-registry document related to Obama's birth in 1961.

Trump performed a good service in compelling the release of that document to the public.

Many Scientific Progressives still insist that this one-page document should have been withheld from public examination until the end of times.

Brando said...

"Where are the Obama transcripts? We were told he was probably the smartest president in history, ever! But no transcripts."

I think as a matter of course the media should demand transcripts, medical records and criminal records and financial statements from all candidates. But the reason it is more of an issue for Trump is he openly bragged about how well he did in school. Maybe Obama was more subtle, but if you have a quote where he gushed about his own high college grades, I'd like to see it.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

I don't want to see Trump's transcripts. Keep the magic alive!

Unknown said...

You don't graduate from Yale and Harvard by being a dummy...waiy, that was Dubya!

Unknown said...

That was wait.

Gahrie said...

Trump wanted to see Obama's college transcripts:

We all did. We're still waiting.

Tank said...

Trump is like Walker, and Perry, and Jindal, and Fiorina, and Carson.

They have all actually achieved things and don't have to run on their credentials.

Gusty Winds said...

If anybody saw the Comedy Central Roast of Donald Trump, Gilbert Gottfried's routine claiming Trump used his money to house and island full of mystical women that possessed the mythical "fourth hole" was a stitch.

Trump takes a punch, shrugs his shoulder's, tells you to kiss his ass, and counter punches really hard. And they guy has a way of calling out the mediocre. The entertainment value of his current candidacy well worth is.

After Trump gets everybody all riled up over the next few months, Scott Walker's "look at me, I even pump my own gas for the campaign bus" is going to look very attractive.

Walker wins in Iowa.

Matt Sablan said...

Walker wins in Iowa? That matters: What's his view on the ethanol he's pumping himself?

mccullough said...

Trump is too old to be president.

Static Ping said...

It would not surprise me at all if Barack's college transcripts had his place of birth as Kenya or Indonesia or some such. I suspect he was born in Hawaii but if he thought having a foreign birthplace would enhance his application it would not surprise me if he would lie about it. He has a track record of lying about lots of things.

Do keep in mind that back in 1991 Barack's literary agent had his place of birth in Kenya. Questions about his place of birth were appropriate as they would be for any and every Presidential candidate. It shows bad faith to not address this immediately.

traditionalguy said...

You are blowing his Trumpet for him. He will counter this move and take all the chips on the on college gradesgate publicity too.

Trump overwhelms interviewers and audiences with smartness so often now that no one will care if he made a C or two 45 years ago.

Quaestor said...

If a serving President can refuse to disclose his transcripts and not be pilloried in the press for it, then it's unfair to demand transcripts from anyone running for the office. Sauce for the goose...

traditionalguy said...

Give em hell Donald is approaching Harry Truman in 1948 escape velocity. And the same Establishment GOP guys are despising he rude show by an inferior...but the election has lots of voters that will be loyal to a man who fights for them.

Trump has stolen Elizabeth warrens issues by claiming to be a former NYC fat cat that has become Common Man Super Hero.

traditionalguy said...

There is no truth to the rumor that Trump has adopted Slim Whitman's Indian Love Song as his new theme song played over loud speakers.

J. Farmer said...

@traditionalguy:

"Trump overwhelms interviewers and audiences with smartness so often now that no one will care if he made a C or two 45 years ago."

I certainly don't care about his grades or GPA, but I have certainly never seen Trump overwhelm anyone with smartness ever. I think my favorite part of his Hannity interview was his assurance that he had a plan for eliminating ISIS but was going to keep it secret until after he was elected and that he was going to send Exon and Mobil into Iraq to "get the oil," whatever that means. He's right on the money with regard to immigration, but generally speaking the guy is an uninformed clown.

Howard said...

I'd much rather see Trump's military record. I have it on good authority that it is 100% unblemished. This is what gives him the moral and macho standing to "out" the coward McCain.

Mark O said...

This is just to put in Obama's face the fact that the fake genius would not release his grades.

You do know that Hillary failed the bar exam?

Gahrie said...

It would not surprise me at all if Barack's college transcripts had his place of birth as Kenya or Indonesia or some such.

I am firmly convinced that he applied to Occidental as Barry Sotero, a foreign exchange student from Indonesia.

etienne said...

He also said he got a high lottery draft number, a year before the lottery started.

Nope, he was unable to pass the physical, and got a 4-F classification. Left unsaid is whether this was a criminal record, mental, or physical problem.

It could be he had an STD, and when he was treated he then fell under the new lottery rules in 1969.

etbass said...

What Americans like about Trump is perhaps not the precise message about immigration or even John McCain, but the fact that he is willing to speak his mind and not be handicapped by political correctness. Normal people are sick and tired of political correctness.

machine said...

and he is your #1 contender!

Quaestor said...

machine knows not the meaning of hubris.

furious_a said...


George Armstrong Custer graduated last in his West Point Class. I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere.

furious_a said...


And the media and left still consider Sullivan a legitimate person to listen to, but not Trump. Why?

They're both shrill but Sullivan's gay and back-in-the-fold after abandoning George Bush over gay marriage.

traditionalguy said...

As I recall the Nixon draft reform in 1969 no one had a number until late December. Before that there were no numbers but there were obvious political favors at the Draft Boards and preferred acceptances into closed National Guard units, as Bush II did it.

The Draft had been stopped altogether for several months by Nixon's order until a Lottery was set up and birthdate numbers drawn. Then they took 30 numbers per month until it reached 180 by June, followed by 5 per month until they stopped for that year 1970 at number 195

I was 206, so I recall it well.

etienne said...

George Armstrong Custer graduated last in his West Point Class. I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere.

The lesson is, even if you are last in the class, it's much better than those who were shown the door. I think it's 15% of Freshman except in the USAF Academy where it is 25% (mostly women who don't make it, or are raped and have to drop out).

J. Farmer said...

@MayBee:

"Andrew Sullivan disparaged John McCain's service during the 2008 election."

What, specifically, did Sullivan say about McCain's service? Here is a post of his from June 2008 in regards to statements made by Wes Clark, titled "Swiftboating McCain"

"Wesley Clark is now and always has been a Clinton-type, but this is pretty revolting. This kind of personal attack was repulsive coming against Kerry from the far right. And it's repulsive the other way round. Both Kerry and McCain served their country honorably; and their records should be revered, period. You can make an argument against McCain's foreign policy experience and judgment on its merits. Do it and leave this crap out of it."

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2008/06/swiftboating-mccain/214672/

Bad Lieutenant said...

Tradguy, please substantiate the following:
traditionalguy said...
As I recall the Nixon draft reform in 1969 no one had a number until late December. Before that there were no numbers but there were obvious political favors at the Draft Boards and preferred acceptances into closed National Guard units, as Bush II did it.

Or do you not mind being known as a liar? Please reply so we know if it's just your weird self-dealing definitions thing.

Michael K said...

"I suspect he was born in Hawaii but if he thought having a foreign birthplace would enhance his application"

I think this is the most likely reason for all the dodging. It was his book summary that mentioned Kenya and I think that was not the only place. It sure sounds like Obama.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"I am firmly convinced that he applied to Occidental as Barry Sotero, a foreign exchange student from Indonesia."

Aren't post-secondary transcripts typically required of college applicants?

traditionalguy said...

@unknown...get a life. If a Texan son with Barbara Bush's family connections cannot get a preference getting into the National Guard unit during a hot war, then Texas has let us all down. That was a fact of life in Georgia, and I feel safe that it happened in Texas more so.

Brando said...

"What, specifically, did Sullivan say about McCain's service? Here is a post of his from June 2008 in regards to statements made by Wes Clark, titled "Swiftboating McCain""

Yeah--I recall Sully writing a lot of negative posts about McCain in and post 2008 (largely because Sully was so defensive of Obama) but I don't recall him ever questioning McCain's service.

Trump has reached a new low, even for him. McCain may have made sacrifices (like not being able to raise his arms anymore) so that people like Trump could be ungrateful and caddish about his service, but it's still loutish behavior. But Trump has long been proof that having money and having class are two very different things.

It's a shame there's any corner of the GOP willing to support this man. I'd always thought it was the Left that was the last refuge of ungrateful, military-bashing brats. Clearly I was wrong.

Bad Lieutenant said...

So, trad, in other words, bullshit walks.

Gahrie said...

Aren't post-secondary transcripts typically required of college applicants?

OK...you explain the total blackout on Obama's college career.

I mean him being a genius and all, shouldn't he be bragging about his grades?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Did anyone care about candidate Obama's record as a Senator, senator, law school lecturer, or community organizer (much less his actual grades)? Of course not. His signature community organizer project, removing the asbestos from and cleaning up the Altgeld Gardens housing project, was by almost any measure a failure--and what meager successes there were seem to have been accomplished mostly by others.
Did anyone care? Did the Prof? Did the Media? It was asserted that Obama was a community organizer, and since he portrayed himself as successful in those efforts in his book, there was no need to look for proof. His pants were perfectly creased, so his intelligence and competence were assumed. Executive experience? who needs it, look how smart and articulate (and clean!) he is.
The Media line is that proof is needed, always dig for the truth ("if your mother says she loves you, check it out")...unless you're one of the good guys. And if you're on the Left you're almost sure to be a good guy, no problem.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

I am not sure what you mean by a "total blackout on Obama's college career." I don't care about college transcripts, Obama's, Trump's, or otherwise. You are the one who said you were "firmly convinced that he applied to Occidental as Barry Sotero, a foreign exchange student from Indonesia." What evidence brought you to this conclusion?

damikesc said...

Sure.

After we see Obama's.

I'm amazed at seeing all these Dems praising McCain. They seemed infinitely less enamored of him in 2008.

Michael K said...

"What evidence brought you to this conclusion?"

The "evidence" is a negative, namely that absence of any data on his life and the fact that the proposal for his first book described him as an exchange student from Kenya.

I assume that, unlike us, you have plenty of evidence of his sterling record.

Bilwick said...

I'm guessing when we finally get to see "Il Dufe's" transcript, you'll see a lot of courses like "Marxist Theory in the Modern World," "White Imperialistic Hegemony in the 20th Century," and the like--all courses recommended by Uncle Frank.

Anonymous said...

4. Trump wanted to see Obama's college transcripts: "I heard he was a terrible student, terrible. How does a bad student go to Columbia and then to Harvard?... I have friends who have smart sons with great marks, great boards, great everything and they can't get into Harvard... We don't know a thing about this guy. There are a lot of questions that are unanswered about our president."

If I were Trump, I'd say something like, "As soon as you get Obama to show his."

HoodlumDoodlum said...

I'll just say "John Edwards" and leave it at that. Does the Media protect Dems on purpose or just fail to investigate Dems due to unacknowledged bias? It's probably some combination of both, but it doesn't matter. Being on the Left means rarely having to prove what you say, what you've done, or who you are. Portray yourself as standing up for the little guy (as H. Clinton is now somehow trying to do) and the Media will swallow it. Intentions and assertions matter for the Left, and the Media will take them at face value (if you like your Dr you can keep your Dr, OCare will save the avg family $2.5k/yr, etc). If you're not on the Left, though, you'd better have some charts, and even then the reporting will likely be "candidate Walker claims XYZ, but some experts are skeptical--here's a long interview with all of those skeptics" or if he's lucky "candidate Walker's controversial plan to do XYZ is raising eyebrows, but he hasn't proven it will work, so we rate it MOSTLY FALSE. In other news, H. Clinton's plan to give out free ponies and potty-trained puppy dogs could turn the economy around--story at 11."

J. Farmer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
J. Farmer said...

@Michael K:

"The 'evidence' is a negative, namely that absence of any data on his life and the fact that the proposal for his first book described him as an exchange student from Kenya."

Lack of data is not evidence for the claim that he "applied to Occidental as Barry Sotero, a foreign exchange student from Indonesia." I never made a claim about his academic record and frankly don't care about it one way or another. His GPA from 30 years ago would have zero impact on how I assess his policies and actions.

He was never described as "an exchange student from Kenya." The booklet put out by Acton & Dystel was a client list and contained brief biographies of the publisher's clients claiming that he was born in Kenya and raised in Hawaii and Indonesia. A New York Times article from a year prior to that regarding his election to the Harvard Law Review identified his place of birth as Hawaii.

MayBee said...

Andrew Sullivan began questioning McCain's experience in the POW Camp:

The cross in the dirt

He was just asking "questions", a foreshadowing of his later questioning of Sarah Palin's uterus.

Anonymous said...

I find this meme fascinating.

Blogger Humperdink said...
Trump is going to continue to get tangled up in his boxers. And he will continue to double, triple, quadruple down on any scatter brained comment. I am beginning to see a third party candidate and an HRC win.


Blogger MadisonMan said...
How much is Trump being paid by the Clintons?

Follow the money.



Blogger MayBee said...
Amen, MadMan


Blogger madAsHell said...
This is nothing more than Trump's campaign donation to Hillary.


Blogger Michael K said...
"I am beginning to see a third party candidate and an HRC win."

I am too but I also see Kerry jumping in if Hillary fades enough. I think that is why (aside from his native treasonous instincts) Kerry went along with the Iran fan dance, He still has hopes of "reporting for duty" again.


Blogger tim in vermont said...
Trump doesn't have to do anything but pander to a hard core five percent needed to strip away to get Hillary elected



As far as predictions go, I think this comes more from fear than any actual evidence. Or maybe it's a meme created to hurt Trumps candidacy.

Either way, it's not going to happen.

Michael K said...

"brief biographies of the publisher's clients claiming that he was born in Kenya"

Where do you suppose they got that ?

Hmmmm?

J. Farmer said...

@MayBee:

"Andrew Sullivan began questioning McCain's experience in the POW Camp:"

The cross in the dirt

He was just asking "questions", a foreshadowing of his later questioning of Sarah Palin's uterus."

So he didn't disparage his service but was incredulous with regard to a story McCain told in a campaign ad? If this was when he "began questioning McCain's experience," are there more examples?

MayBee said...

You don't think questioning his experience in the POW camp is disparaging his service? Most of his service was in the POW camp.
He continued pushing this line until he was embarrassed out of it.

J. Farmer said...

@Michael K:

"Where do you suppose they got that ?

Hmmmm?"

I have no clue. Obama could have lied to them about it, or it could have been an error on their part. An NYT article from a year before identified him as having been born in Hawaii. Where did they get that? Hmm? The same bio also identified his father as having been the finance minister of Kenya, which was not true, though he did work for the ministry of finance. They could have been told this as a lie or, again, made an error.

Are you, like gahrie, "firmly convinced that he applied to Occidental as Barry Sotero, a foreign exchange student from Indonesia?" If so, I would say you have quite a low bar for firm convictions.

MayBee said...

Why do you think Andrew Sullivan started asking questions about McCain's POW service, J Farmer? To praise him? To get to some important truth?

Brando said...

"I mean him being a genius and all, shouldn't he be bragging about his grades?"

If someone bragged about their grades, I would doubt their genius. I mean, could you imagine Einstein, Oppenheimer, Fermi, Hawking--or in the business world, Jobs, Gates, etc. bragging about their grades? Even among those with excellent grades it doesn't seem like a "genius" thing to do to harp on academic credentials rather than things they've actually produced or created.

J. Farmer said...

@Maybee:

"You don't think questioning his experience in the POW camp is disparaging his service? Most of his service was in the POW camp."

McCain was in the Navy for more than 20 years and spent a little over 5 years as POW, so it is not accurate to say "most of his service was in the POW camp."

Being incredulous about a single story about a single event that occurred as POW is not "disparaging his service," whether you think Sullivan was right to be incredulous or not.

"He continued pushing this line until he was embarrassed out of it."

Pushing what line? When was he "embarrassed out of it" and what caused such embarrassment?

Brando said...

"As far as predictions go, I think this comes more from fear than any actual evidence. Or maybe it's a meme created to hurt Trumps candidacy.

Either way, it's not going to happen."

What's not going to happen--that Trump will actually admit to doing this to help the Clintons? Because he's already doing a pretty good job mocking the GOP and giving Hillary an easy shot at taking the high road by criticizing him.

Or do you think both Trump and the Clintons are of too high a character to try something like this? Or do you buy into Trump's conservative bona fides, despite a long history that suggests otherwise?

J. Farmer said...

@MayBee:

"Why do you think Andrew Sullivan started asking questions about McCain's POW service, J Farmer? To praise him? To get to some important truth?"

I assume from the entry you linked to that Sullivan had doubts as to whether or not the story was true. If anything, he was disparaging McCain's character in 2008, not 1968.

Brando said...

"Why do you think Andrew Sullivan started asking questions about McCain's POW service, J Farmer?"

Sully's blog has covered almost every subject, newsworthy or otherwise, during its run. Questioning the "cross in the sand" story is very far removed from suggesting McCain was less than heroic or that his military service was less than admirable. That's just not on the same page as what Trump did.

Sully has gone down some embarrassing rabbit holes before--the Palin baby being the most notable case (though of course he described it more as a way to get at her "weird lies" than a belief that the child was not hers). But let's not equate that with what Trump said about McCain.

And hell, I'm not much of a McCain fan--but this still is disgusting on Trump's part and it's disappointing to see right wingers--who usually come across reverential towards those who sacrificed for this country--make "tu quoque" excuses for that vile man.

Humperdink said...

Eric said: "As far as predictions go, I think this comes more from fear than any actual evidence. Or maybe it's a meme created to hurt Trumps candidacy.

Either way, it's not going to happen."


I'm counting on you Eric (no Trump 3rd party/ no HRC victory).

Quaestor said...

traditionalguy wrote: Trump has stolen Elizabeth warrens issues by claiming to be a former NYC fat cat that has become Common Man Super Hero.

Which inspired me to create this.

(I would have finished earlier except that I had a hard time finding an image of Trump in which he did not look truculent, predatory, or barking mad.)

traditionalguy said...

Trump's intelligence does not make him the last word expert on things that he is new to. But at age 70 he has learned a lot in an active life of swimming with the sharks.

What Trump has is that natural warrior intelligence that can learn changing battle situations almost instantly because he has already thought out the options and verified his intelligence. So he can attack "without taking counsel of his fears" and keep his opponent off balance and never set.

Trump is crazy like Georgie Patton attacking the German offensive surrounding Bastogne on two days notice. He was ready.

Is that intelligence? It is a quickly calculated risk taking that believes a good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed three days from now.

It is not perfect, but it is the timing necessary for defeating a good opponent.

Gahrie said...

You are the one who said you were "firmly convinced that he applied to Occidental as Barry Sotero, a foreign exchange student from Indonesia." What evidence brought you to this conclusion?

The fact that, unlike every other candidate for president in modern times, he not only didn't release his college transcripts and records, he made efforts to seal them.

The fact that all of the (admittedly few..which is itself "interesting") accounts of his college life, especially at Occidental, he identified and hung out with the foreign exchange students, rather than American kids, Black or White.

Admittedly, scant evidence, but that's his fault, not mine.

Meade said...

"You can criticize Trump all you want to, but he certainly didn't proceed through school and life because of affirmative action."

How do you know "he certainly didn't" get affirmative action.

Also, what about being born into wealth, privilege, and power? How is that different from affirmative action?

J. Farmer said...

@traditionalguy:

"What Trump has is that natural warrior intelligence that can learn changing battle situations almost instantly because he has already thought out the options and verified his intelligence."

That's all well and good. But does he still think it's a great idea for local and state government to steal citizens' private property and hand it over to business developers? Does he still want to "drop a 25% tax on China?" Does he still want to go into Iraq and "get the oil?"

@gahrie:

"The fact that all of the (admittedly few..which is itself "interesting") accounts of his college life, especially at Occidental, he identified and hung out with the foreign exchange students, rather than American kids, Black or White."

That is not true, and several former classmates have been interviewed for profiles of Obama. One of the first steps to applying for any college is to provide a copy of your post-secondary school records. How do you effectively lie about being a foreign exchange student from Indonesia when your entire post-secondary education was at Punahou School?

You don't even have "scant evidence." You have none at all. But even if I agreed that what you had amounted to "scant evidence," that seems like an awfully low threshold to be "firmly convinced" of something.

Chris403 said...

I'd like to see every presidential candidate's transcripts. Maybe that should be part of the official disclosure.

MayBee said...

Sully has gone down some embarrassing rabbit holes before--the Palin baby being the most notable case (though of course he described it more as a way to get at her "weird lies" than a belief that the child was not hers). But let's not equate that with what Trump said about McCain.

And hell, I'm not much of a McCain fan--but this still is disgusting on Trump's part and it's disappointing to see right wingers--who usually come across reverential towards those who sacrificed for this country--make "tu quoque" excuses for that vile man.


I didn't equate them, nor am I excusing Trump.

Trump is a clown. I have nothing to do with him. But Trump shouldn't be given the ability (by the media) to disrupt the Republican party, primary, or candidates. He's declared himself a candidate and feels free to open his mouth. He is responsible for and representative of nobody but himself.

And yes, Sullivan went down embarrassing rabbit holes. And this was at least the start of one of them. And Obama loved him. Let that be a lesson to Republicans. Nobody has to take responsibility for the idiot rantings of the clown.

Brando said...

"Also, what about being born into wealth, privilege, and power? How is that different from affirmative action?"

Ask anyone if they'd prefer to be born the son of a multimillionaire or be born to a non-rich black family. No serious person would prefer Option B.

Brando said...

"I didn't equate them, nor am I excusing Trump."

Fair enough--I've seen other comments on this site where people actually supported those comments.

"Trump is a clown. I have nothing to do with him. But Trump shouldn't be given the ability (by the media) to disrupt the Republican party, primary, or candidates. He's declared himself a candidate and feels free to open his mouth. He is responsible for and representative of nobody but himself."

He absolutely shouldn't be taken seriously. And I remind others that while Trump is "strong" in the GOP polls right now, that's because he's polling in the teens--which means a lot in a 20-person race where only one or two have the name recognition to break out of single digits, but his "popularity" at this point is more a "name recognition" thing and he has a low ceiling in the party.

At the same time, he does appear to have actual fans--people who think "because he doesn't care what others think of him!" as if this is a qualification for anything (I suppose such people are lining up behind Kanye West for president, or Ted Nugent?). I mean, I like "tell it like it is" and "anti-PC" as much as the next guy, but a rich jerk who's frequently wrong and has no qualifications for president deserves no special credit. And if these people think they're "scaring" the media and PC brigades, check again--they couldn't be happier that the GOP is getting so much attention for this childish crap.

My opinion of Rick Perry has certainly gone up as a result of this.

Brando said...

"I'd like to see every presidential candidate's transcripts. Maybe that should be part of the official disclosure."

There should be a checklist--educational records, financial records, criminal and civil records (if any), military records (if any) and medical records. All of those things are pertinent in selecting a commander in chief. You want to keep it private? Go into another line of business.

Hell, ALL of those things are checked carefully by OPM for many federal government jobs. Why should that not be required for the top federal employee?

Gahrie said...

There should be a checklist--educational records, financial records, criminal and civil records (if any), military records (if any) and medical records

There used to be..until Obama and Kerry.

Gahrie said...

How do you effectively lie about being a foreign exchange student from Indonesia when your entire post-secondary education was at Punahou School?

How do you know he didn't enroll there as Barry Sotero, foreign exchange student?

Look, there has to be some reason he sealed the records...what is your theory?

Brando said...

"There used to be..until Obama and Kerry."

It pre-dates that--I recall there was a flap about Clinton not revealing his medical records for several years, and lots of people assuming he was swimming in STDs.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"There used to be..until Obama and Kerry."

That is not true. Bush II did not release his transcripts. The Yale transcripts were leaked to the New York Times. During the '08 campaign, McCain's class rank was disclosed but not his grades. Romney did not release his transcripts during '12 election. College transcripts have never been regularly disclosed by presidential candidates.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"How do you know he didn't enroll there as Barry Sotero, foreign exchange student?"

It is an error of logic to ask someone to prove a negative. That would be like me asking you to prove there was no Santa Claus. You don't prove there is no Santa Claus, you say that you have never seen any evidence to convince you there was a Santa Claus. Similarly, I have seen no evidence to suggest Obama enrolled at Occidental College as a foreign exchange student named Barry Sotero.

However, there is evidence to suggest it is not likely true. As I said before, when you apply to a college, you send your post-secondary school records. Having attended school in Hawaii and thus having a Hawaiian school send records would make it difficult to claim to be an exchange student from Indonesia. Also, he had classmates at Occidental who knew him as Obama, which would suggest he was not attending there under an alternate last name. Jim Tranquada, the communications director at Occidental said: "Contemporary public documents, such as the 1979-80 freshman 'Lookbook' [a guide distributed to incoming freshman] published at the beginning of President Obama's first year at Occidental, list him as Barack Obama."

"Look, there has to be some reason he sealed the records...what is your theory?"

The records are not sealed. Federal law makes it a crime for universities to release any student's transcript without the express permission of the student. No effort to seal records would be required.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Brando said...
"As far as predictions go, I think this comes more from fear than any actual evidence. Or maybe it's a meme created to hurt Trumps candidacy.

Either way, it's not going to happen."

What's not going to happen--that Trump will actually admit to doing this to help the Clintons? Because he's already doing a pretty good job mocking the GOP and giving Hillary an easy shot at taking the high road by criticizing him.

Or do you think both Trump and the Clintons are of too high a character to try something like this? Or do you buy into Trump's conservative bona fides, despite a long history that suggests otherwise?


He's not going to run third party.

The GOP hurts itself, that's not Trumps fault. We conservatives are fed up with the GOP. Yet we are told year after year after year and election after election that we have to go along to get along. That the "moderates" would never vote for our candidate, so we have to keep sucking it up and voting for their candidate.

We're done. It's time you started voting for Trump. Otherwise, why do you want to split the vote and get Hillary elected?

Is Jeb just running to get Hillary elected?

If the GOP really loved this country, these other candidates would all drop out and let Trump run unopposed. I mean, we're trying to beat Hillary, right?

Anonymous said...

Blogger Meade said...
"You can criticize Trump all you want to, but he certainly didn't proceed through school and life because of affirmative action."

How do you know "he certainly didn't" get affirmative action.

Also, what about being born into wealth, privilege, and power? How is that different from affirmative action?


The only difference I see is, one is encoded into law to give people of a particular skin color/race an unfair advantage.

I'm not disgusted by rich people passing on their riches. I will be happy to pass along any wealth I've earned in my life to my children. Most parents would be.

I'm not so happy about giving people a leg up based on skin color. That's true racism, and divisive.

Michael K said...

"Are you, like gahrie, "firmly convinced that he applied to Occidental as Barry Sotero, a foreign exchange student from Indonesia?" If so, I would say you have quite a low bar for firm convictions."

No, but I think he spent a good part of his life as "Barry Sotero." His secretiveness about college records is one factor that stimulates all this speculation. He had the thinnest resume of any president ever elected and has turned out to be quite radical in his behavior. That also stimulates curiosity, although not of course from the left lemmings.

J. Farmer said...

@Michael K:

"No, but I think he spent a good part of his life as 'Barry Sotero.'"

It's never been in dispute that he was frequently called "Barry" growing up. However, he was only ever briefly referred to at Barry Soetoro when living with his mother and stepfather in Indonesia, where he was alternately called Barry Soetoro and Barry Obama. His half-sister's last name is Soetoro. He returned to Hawaii to live with his grandparents when he was 10 years old and entered the 5th grade at Punahou School then. His yearbook lists him as "Barry Obama."

"His secretiveness about college records is one factor that stimulates all this speculation."

Again, it's never been routine for presidential candidates to release their college transcripts. Neither McCain nor Romney released their college transcripts. What are they trying to hide?

Freder Frederson said...

You can criticize Trump all you want to, but he certainly didn't proceed through school and life because of affirmative action.

I don't know the specifics of Trump (although he certainly did come from a wealthy family), but there is no doubt there is affirmative action for rich people in this country. What do you think "legacy" admissions to schools are. Or the ability to get out of stupid stuff you do when you are young that would land a poor person in jail?

Gahrie said...

Neither McCain nor Romney released their college transcripts. What are they trying to hide?

McCain's records were indeed released, in fact they were released long before he ran for president.

If Romney's were not released, I would simply state that he was simply following Obama's lead. In any event, it was indeed routine and expected for such records to be released prior to Obama.

Ann Althouse said...

The Blair book says he used connections to get into Penn. that means he didn't get in based on his GPA and test scores. That's a worse type of affirmative action than taking race into account, which is supposed to provide benefits of diversity to the whole student body.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"McCain's records were indeed released, in fact they were released long before he ran for president."

No, they were not. McCain disclosed his class ranking but has never disclosed his transcripts from the Naval Academy.

"In any event, it was indeed routine and expected for such records to be released prior to Obama."

No, you are wrong. Go and try to find some reference anywhere to Clinton's transcripts being released in 1992 or Bob Dole's in 1996. When Bush II released his National Guard record to quell those false rumors, his grades were redacted.

Michael K said...

"it's never been routine for presidential candidates to release their college transcripts. Neither McCain nor Romney released their college transcripts. What are they trying to hide?"

The issue came up, not because of the National Guard fabrication, but because the Democrats made a big deal out of Bush's supposed stupidity. They also made much of his alleged favors to get into Yale. As a result, the grades of both Bush and Kerry were leaked and Bush had better grades than Kerry.

I was never impressed with Bush as an intellect but Kerry was a traitor in my opinion.

If you want to talk about Romney's grades, or the results of his business acumen, I am happy to do so. I think we missed the last bus to saving the country as it existed for the past 100 years when Barry was re-elected. Romney could have pulled us out of the death spiral I think we are in.

J. Farmer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
J. Farmer said...

@MIchael K:

"The issue came up, not because of the National Guard fabrication, but because the Democrats made a big deal out of Bush's supposed stupidity."

My point was that when Bush released National Guard records, his grades were redacted. His Yale transcript was leaked to The New Yorker in 1999 and had nothing to do with Kerry. In an earlier Washington Post profile of Bush, it indicated that he had refused to release his grades from Andover or Yale. Bush never made any secret of being a mediocre student at Yale and described himself as being a "C" student.

"I think we missed the last bus to saving the country as it existed for the past 100 years when Barry was re-elected."

This is just the flipside of the same rhetoric we heard from the left from 2000 to 2008, constantly calling Bush the worst president in the republic's history. Just out of curiosity, what do you imagine will occur between 2012 and 2016 that will permanently alter the country from how "it existed for the past 100 years?"

HoodlumDoodlum said...

J. Farmer said...The records are not sealed. Federal law makes it a crime for universities to release any student's transcript without the express permission of the student. No effort to seal records would be required.

Of course you're correct, Farmer, but I hope you understand the irony of Barack Obama benefiting from keeping his records private. I mean, it's not like he's Blair Hull or Jack Ryan or anything.

J. Farmer said...

@HoodlumDoodlum:

"Of course you're correct, Farmer, but I hope you understand the irony of Barack Obama benefiting from keeping his records private."

Frankly, I think this is a non-issue and a waste of time. There is not a precedent for presidential candidates to release their transcripts, so I don't find anything particularly suspicious about not releasing them. I have disagreed with probably 80% of what Obama has done as president and agreed with about 20% of it. None of that has to do with his academic performance in his late teens and early 20's, and my opinion would not change one way or the other based on anything contained in college transcripts. My assessment of Bush's presidential actions had nothing to do with his performance at Yale, either. Obsession over this topic just looks like desperate straw grasping to me.

Michael K said...

"what do you imagine will occur between 2012 and 2016 that will permanently alter the country from how "it existed for the past 100 years?""

You mean aside from 3 million illegals ?

And more debt than the previous presidents including Bush ?

And regulations that are destroying the economy ?

And a nuclear Iran with our help and protection ?

And China ascendent in Asia so that Australia is now the bulwark against them ?


And a reign of terror among Obama's political opponents ? Like the one in Wisconsin and the IRS ?

I could go on. Maybe you get the idea.

And of course, Kerry turned out to be a D student, didn't he.

Michael K said...

"Frankly, I think this is a non-issue and a waste of time. There is not a precedent for presidential candidates to release their transcripts, so I don't find anything particularly suspicious about not releasing them."

Of course not. Obama is the most secretive person to ever be elected president and with the thinest resume.

A white man with his record would never have made it to the Illinois State Senate.

Bricap said...

Many white men have made it in Illinois politics by merely being the son of the right person or knowing the right person, Michael.

Michael K said...

"Many white men have made it in Illinois politics by merely being the son of the right person"

Yes, to Congress and, if female, to the State Senate but never to the US Senate. Illinois is corrupt but not that corrupt.

Obama had zero record. Have you ever read how he came to be a US Senator ?

Several months before Obama announced his U.S. Senate bid, Jones called his old friend Cliff Kelley, a former Chicago alderman who now hosts the city’s most popular black call-in radio ­program.

I called Kelley last week and he recollected the private conversation as follows:

“He said, ‘Cliff, I’m gonna make me a U.S. Senator.'”

“Oh, you are? Who might that be?”

“Barack Obama.”

Jones appointed Obama sponsor of virtually every high-profile piece of legislation, angering many rank-and-file state legislators who had more seniority than Obama and had spent years championing the bills.

Tim said...

Obama went to a LOT of post secondary school. Has anyone ever found a classmate? Was he alone in every class? Funny, huh.

Bricap said...

I think mayor of Chicago is certainly lofty enough for consideration. If it hasn't happened with the U.S. Senate yet, give it time. Chicago certainly has a long history of nepotism and cronyism, anyway.

J. Farmer said...

@Tim:

"Obama went to a LOT of post secondary school."

No he didn't. He went to the same school from the 5th through the 12th grade.

Michael K said...

Farmer, you are certainly an expert on Obama. Any clues about why he is destroying our country ?

Tim said...

Did you miss the post secondary school part?

cubanbob said...

J Farmer as for Obama and the birther issue, suffice to say he was born in Hawaii. Whether or not his parents were actually legally married is another thing albeit not very important. More important is the fact Obama was born a dual citizen and may have been at some point a triple citizen and did he ever renounce his other citizenships? As for his academics, they are probably sketchy since if they were actually anything decent he would have disclosed them just to embarrass his critics. My cousin was at Columbia when Obama was there and he never heard of Obama while at university and none of my cousins classmates ever heard of Obama at the time either. You would think a guy like Obama would have been noticed.

McCain the Naval Aviator is a hero. Flying into a very hot, very heavily defended enemy airspace is not the stuff of cowards. Choosing to pass on getting out of a POW camp when given the opportunity in order not to give the enemy a propaganda victory is not for cowardly. I give him all of that and for being pro-veteran. However John McCain US Senator is no hero and by and large a jerk. I voted for the guy in 2008 and supported him in the 2000 primaries but for him to call the TEA Partiers crazy, hey John, eff you.

grackle said...

My point was that when Bush released National Guard records, his grades were redacted. His Yale transcript was leaked to The New Yorker in 1999 and had nothing to do with Kerry.

Question: If Bush’s grades were already published by The New Yorker in 1999 why is it significant that his National Guard record, which was released by the Department of Defense(not Bush) in 2005, had the grades redacted?

Answer: There’s no significance. It was standard practice to redact grades from released military records resulting from FOIA requests for service records because college grades are irrelevant to records of military service. They only release what is actually requested. But Bush’s grades had already been known for years.

During the Bush/Kerry presidential the MSM had been touting Kerry as an ivy league intellectual and Bush as a dumb hick. Surprise, surprise, it turned out that Bush’s grades at Yale were slightly higher than Kerry’s grades at Yale.

Some readers may remember that CBS, Dan Rather and the producer Mary Mapes produced a phony National Guard record during that campaign. In the ensuing controversy and after an unsuccessful attempt at a cover-up CBS dropped the show(60 Minutes Wednesday) from it’s line-up and fired Rather, Mapes and some others involved in the fraud.

J. Farmer said...

@Tim:

"Did you miss the post secondary school part?"

You are correct. When I was discussing the conspiracy theory that he applied to Occidental as a foreign student, I wrote "post-secondary" when I meant "secondary." But even to your point, I am not sure what your basis is for saying he attended "A LOT" of post secondary schools. He attended two undergraduate universities, Occidental and Columbia, and law school. As for classmates, yes, several have been interviewed, including roommates at Occidental and Columbia, and obviously his time at Harvard Law has been well documented. So it is only "funny" to someone who has not bothered to uncover what about 5 minutes of research would show.

@grackle:

My only point in mentioning the redaction was a counter to another commenter who claimed that until Obama, it was standard practice for presidential candidates to release their school records. That is not true.

@Michale K:

"Any clues about why he is destroying our country ?"

I don't think he is. I think that is wild hyperbole and nothing more than we used to get from committed ideologues on the left during the Bush era. I actually think it's comical that people actually believe we have two significantly different political parties offering radically different paths for the country. I think Republicans and Democrats are essentially two wings of the same statist, corporatist party. Until Trump stormed into the race, who among the declared Republican candidates would you not expect to sell out on immigration? Where is the non-interventionist candidate? With Bush, we got stupid wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. With Obama, we got a stupid war in Libya.


grackle said...

My only point in mentioning the redaction was a counter to another commenter who claimed that until Obama, it was standard practice for presidential candidates to release their school records. That is not true.

And my point was that the commentor’s point had some inaccuracies and at least one bogus implication.

… Bush released National Guard records …

Bush did not release the records. He never possessed them to release. The military does not routinely give service records to vets mustering out of the military. The records were released by the DoD honoring a FOIA request from a news organization.

My point was that when Bush released National Guard records, his grades were redacted.

This statement implies that Bush himself redacted his grades off his service record. Which is passing strange, since Bush’s grades were already published by The New Yorker years before Bush’s service records were released.

Inaccuracies tend to undercut an argument, especially in this internet era where bogus ‘facts’ can easily be checked online.

grackle said...

I think Republicans and Democrats are essentially two wings of the same statist, corporatist party.

I have trouble believing that the commentor would ever vote Republican but I can easily imagine the commentor voting for a Democrat. I wonder if the commentor would care to reveal to the readers how the commentor voted in the last two presidential elections.

J. Farmer said...

@grackle:

"Bush did not release the records. He never possessed them to release."

Bush releases his Vietnam-era military files
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/13/elec04.prez.bush.texas.records/

Bush Releases Vietnam-era Guard Records
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/4230576/ns/politics/t/bush-releases-vietnam-era-guard-records/#.Va6fkHhtkWw

The White House released 18 months of President Bush's National Guard payroll records on Tuesday showing what administration officials asserted was proof that Mr. Bush had fully completed his service in the Guard during the Vietnam War.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/11/politics/11BUSH.html

The week ended with as much drama as it began. The president released what the White House said was his entire National Guard file, some 300 pages long, in an attempt to refute charges that he had shirked some of his duty. It happened to include with his application to the military a college transcript from his undergraduate years at Yale University, but the grades were carefully redacted.
http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/nation/ny-uspost153672598feb16,0,295642.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-print

J. Farmer said...

@grackle:

"I wonder if the commentor would care to reveal to the readers how the commentor voted in the last two presidential elections."

The first election I was eligible to vote in was 2000. I voted for Bush II in 2000, Kerry in 2004, Obama in 2008, and Gary Johnson in 2012.

J. Farmer said...

@grackle:

I would add that in my opinion the best president of my lifetime, I was born in the early 1980s, was George H.W. Bush. He was the last of our presidents who it could be said pursued a realist foreign policy. Not surprising, in my estimation, the first Gulf War was the last clearcut strategic military victory this country has achieved. The absurd military adventurism pursued by Clinton, Bush II, and Obama has, for the most part, been a total failure.

grackle said...

Is there any record of the Trumpster apologizing for anything, ever?

In a word, no.

But isn’t that part of his appeal? Trump, the apology-free candidate. I think it is refreshing to think that Trump, unlike Obama, would never go overseas, kiss the ass of unfriendly foreign leaders and apologize for America in front of huge crowds of foreigners. I think it’s one of the main contrasts Trump has going for him.

grackle said...

The first election I was eligible to vote in was 2000. I voted for Bush II in 2000, Kerry in 2004, Obama in 2008, and Gary Johnson in 2012.

So, in the last two presidentials the commentator voted for a Democrat and a Libertarian. That’s good to know.

A question on another subject: If there is such a fear of a third party run by Trump, why does the GOP elite, with their insults, seem determined to push Trump into a third party run?

I put it down to stupidity, fear of the MSM and a tin ear when it comes to listening to their base.

Carson, Fiorina and Cruz have had their ears to the ground and refused to participate in the anti-Trump narrative. That was very wise of them.

For me the reaction of GOP hopefuls to Trump is a litmus test for who I may vote for in the primaries. It’s a character marker for me.

Walker, sadly, failed the test. Too bad because I liked him a lot. Ditto Perry, Bush, Rubio, Graham, etc.

However … I will happily and enthusiastically march to the polls in November 2016 and vote for any of them should they win the nomination. No stay-at-home fit of pique for me.

I would be unlikely to vote for any third party candidate. Maybe someday but not now.

grackle said...

On the question of document releases:

On February 13, 2004, during Bush's re-election campaign, more than 700 additional pages of documents on Bush's service were released, including those from the National Personnel Records Center, under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act

On June 22, 2004 … The Associated Press sued the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Air Force, seeking access to all of Bush's records during his military service.

On July 23, 2004 … The Pentagon released computerized payroll records covering Bush's 1972 service.

On September 24, 2004, under court order resulting from an earlier FOIA lawsuit filed by the Associated Press, the Pentagonreleased more documents.

On September 29, 2004, the White House released a November 1974 document, saying it had been in Bush's personnel file and that it had been found by the Pentagon.

On October 5, 2004 … the Texas Air National Guard produced two previously unreleased documents (four pages of records) that included Bush's orders for his last day of active duty in 1973.

On October 14, 2004 … the Texas National Guard released 31 additional pages of documents found by two retired Army lawyers who went through Guard files under an agreement between the Texas National Guard and The Associated Press, which sued to gain access to the files.

On September 7, 2004, the White House released the flight logs recording the flights done by Bush as a pilot. A Pentagon spokeswoman said the logs were found at the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records.


http://tinyurl.com/okpjuxb

It becomes apparent that any records offered by Bush to the MSM first had to be found and released by various government entities. Despite the wording in various news articles of the day it is evident that the DoD(“the Pentagon”), the USAF and the National Guard were doing the releasing and that for some of it Bush was merely a conduit between the govt. entities doing the actual releasing and the MSM. Bush was not walking around with his National Guard payroll records in his pocket.

I wonder if the commentor realizes that the Newsday URL leads to nowhere?

My point was that when Bush released National Guard records, his grades were redacted. His Yale transcript was leaked to The New Yorker in 1999 …

And of course the question remains: If The New Yorker published leaked transcripts of Bush’s grades in 1999 how is it significant that the grades were redacted by a government entity in a service record years later?

J. Farmer said...

@grackle:

Both of these things are true. Records were released at the behest of the president and because the Associated Press sued for them. But you're playing a semantic game regarding this conduit business. If Bush authorized Yale to release his records, it would be perfectly normal to say that Bush released them instead of saying, no Bush didn't release them, Yale did, Bush was just the conduit. On a semantic level, that would be true, but it's six of one, half dozen of another.

"If The New Yorker published leaked transcripts of Bush’s grades in 1999 how is it significant that the grades were redacted by a government entity in a service record years later?"

Because if you follow the thread where this was brought up originally, I was responding to a commenter who claimed that prior to Obama, presidential candidates released their school records as a matter of course. I am not impugning anything Bush did or claiming that he did anything out of the ordinary. That commenter was wrong that candidates routinely released their records, and I pointed out that Bush's records came to light because they were leaked, not because the candidate released them. Neither McCain nor Romney released their school transcripts, and Kerry did not release his until after the election was over.

J. Farmer said...

@grackle:

"So, in the last two presidentials the commentator voted for a Democrat and a Libertarian. That’s good to know. "

Yes; I don't trust Republicans with foreign policy so long as they push a maximalist hardline, hawkish stance. I voted against Obama because of his foreign policy record, and I would not vote for Mitt "double Gitmo" Romney. And since the "liberal internationalist" championed by the likes of Hillary Clinton is nothing more than neoconservative hawkishness dressed up in a pretty face, I don't support that either. If the two main party candidates are hawks, I'll vote for a third party.

grackle said...

My point was that when Bush released National Guard records, his grades were redacted. His Yale transcript was leaked to The New Yorker in 1999 …

I am not impugning anything Bush did or claiming that he did anything out of the ordinary.


Perhaps, but the wording makes it seem that Bush was hiding his grades. Bush’s grades, according to the commentor himself, were already well known because they had been leaked and published several years before.

Readers, some folks like to take the commonplace, normal and ordinary and elevate it to the status of something ominous and underhanded. Most of the time they get away with it.

J. Farmer said...

@grackle:

"Readers, some folks like to take the commonplace, normal and ordinary and elevate it to the status of something ominous and underhanded. Most of the time they get away with it."

Precisely the point I was trying to make. Again, the focus of my remarks was on a claim that commenter 'gahrie' was making regarding the precedent for presidential candidates' releasing their academic records. The notion that release of such records was commonplace practice, and Obama represents some sharp break from tradition and is thus evidence of "ominous and underhanded" motives is empirically wrong. Now, I am not saying Obama may not have self-interested reasons for not releasing such records to the public. He very well may, but I am not a mind reader. Nonetheless, there is nothing unprecedented in Obama's behavior on this particular issue.

As you rightly point out, Bush's transcript was public record in 1999 and thus it would not make logical sense to interpret the redaction of the grades in 2004 as evidence of any sinister intent. The White House authorized the release of the records as part of its response to accusations regarding Bush's national guard service. There were further accusations that the records remained incomplete and thus continued insinuations about a cover up. The Associated Press' lawsuit occurred in tandem with these events. The whole thing always looked to me like the media's desperate attempt to discover a scandal in an election year.

I never really cared about the story. What was going on in Iraq in 2004 was enough of a reason to vote against him in my opinion, regardless of what was going on in Texas 30 years earlier. I have a similar opinion on Obama's transcripts. It's a sideshow mostly of interest to the AM crowd. Would a review of Obama's transcripts change anyone's position on Obamacare? Immigration? Iran? ISIS? Energy policy? Banking regulation? Environmental regulation? Trade?

I evaluate Obama on the policies he pursues and the actions he takes. I could not care less about whether he had affinity for Marxist critical theory when he was 19 years old. Obama's political orientation is squarely in line with the mainstream left-of-center social democratic world view. He believes in a steeper progression in the tax code coupled with a larger welfare state and more activist government. Regardless of what you think of the wisdom of such policies, there is a sizable constituency for this perspective. The notion that Obama is some extreme radical is hysterical nonsense.

The incessant accusation of partisan motive for one's argument is tedious and aggravating. Back when I was opposing the Iraq War, I always considered arguments about secretive motives like a grab for oil or a move to enrich Haliburton or to do the bidding of the Jewish cabal glorified gossip mongering not substantiated in empirical fact. However, even as an opponent of the war, if I argued against such assertions, I was routinely accused of being right-wing, a neocon, a stooge for the Republican Party, blah blah blah. My assertion was always that the administration's expressed public arguments were reason enough to oppose the war.