July 14, 2015

"An antiabortion group on Tuesday released an undercover video of an official at Planned Parenthood discussing in graphic detail how to abort a fetus to preserve its organs for medical research — and also the costs associated with sharing that tissue with scientists."

The Washington Post reports.
Antiabortion groups... said the callous nature of the discussion captured on film should tug at viewers’ consciences — particularly when Nucatola apparently describes “crushing” the fetus in ways that keep its internal organs intact, and her remarks about researchers’ desire for lungs and livers.

“I’d say a lot of people want liver,” she says in the video posted on the Center for Medical Progress’s Web site, between bites of salad. “And for that reason, most providers will do this case under ultrasound guidance, so they’ll know where they’re putting their forceps.”

She continues: “We’ve been very good at getting heart, lung, liver, because we know that, so I’m not gonna crush that part, I’m gonna basically crush below, I’m gonna crush above, and I’m gonna see if I can get it all intact.”
Here's the harrowing video:

172 comments:

David said...

Monsters.

And my mother's favorite charity, while she lived.

Lewis Wetzel said...

If your position is that a fetus is simply a bit of tissue, what is the problem here?

Humperdink said...

MSNBC, CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, NY TIMES, Wash Post: "yawn".

Moneyrunner said...

I don't believe that this is getting much play in the MSM.

Moneyrunner said...

Why should abortion rights proponents be bothered by finding alternative uses for non-viable tissue masses? It's not like the non-baby has any further use for its liver. Amirite?

jr565 said...

Why harrowing? That's what they do. oh, and Ritmo keeps describing these things as a clump of cells. How often can you harvest organst from a clump of cells.
ON the other hand, they already killed the fetuses. AT this point, why not use the organs?
Otherwise they are going to wind up in a land fill somewhere. AT least this way someone gets a tiny little liver.
Did planned parenthood ever thing about using these as a food source? Maybe they taste like chicken. Instead of frogs legs they could sell fetus legs. Mmmmmm, fetus legs.

Oh, and remember the jars of baby parts in Gossnell's fridge? Everyone thought he was keeping momentos. Nope, He probably was selling those for cash.

Ann Althouse said...

My link and quotes are from WaPo.

Humperdink said...

I should not be surprised by this revelation, but I am. This is just stunning.

How sick are we as a country? We are toast.

jr565 said...

RING RING RING!
Gosnell:Hello?
Nucatola: HEy it's me!
Gosnell: how are you today?
Nucatolla: Not bad, not bad. Just got some primo fetus lungs and livers. I crushed a few with my own hands and only had one case where the livers couldnt' be used.
Gosnell: You have to be more careful. Those livers are valuable.
Nucotalla: Tell me about it. SO what did you do today?
Gosnell: Well I snipped a few heads, and then harvested some organs myself. I have them in my fridge. I'm going to send off a batch tomorrow morning.
Nucotalla: Do you have any livers? We could really use some livers.
Gosnell: I think I have some legs, an arm, a heart. But I should be killing a few more today, so I'll put some of those livers on ice for you.
Nucotalla: Thanks, Gos! You're the man.
Gosnell: You're too kind.
Nucotalla: Anyway, gotta go. Have to "Donate some tissue" wink wink.
Gosnell: LOL.

Anonymous said...

Disgusting. Another evil of the democratic party. WHY are we giving them taxpayer money to MURDER and sell body parts???

Rick said...

Oh, and remember the jars of baby parts in Gossnell's fridge? Everyone thought he was keeping momentos. Nope, He probably was selling those for cash.

Maybe if the media hired journalists instead of political activists we'd have found that out.

It's amazing what you don't find out when you don't look.

glenn said...

Anybody who voted for Obama is complicit. Or Clinton. You are also complicit in the murder of the young lady in SF. And in the upcoming catrosphe in the Middle East.

Moneyrunner said...

"Harrowing?" Why is selling parts from "things" you have killed ... uh, sorry ... terminated ... (excised? suctioned? removed? aborted? help me her in euphemism land) more harrowing than putting them in the dumpster or wherever the byproducts of surgery go?

This reaction brings pictures to mind of women going to the supermarket believing that meat comes from the refrigerator case near the back of the store. For most people reality never needs to intrude beause they don't really want to think too hard about it. Abortion's an abstraction, a part of case law. Even the women who undergo the procedure never really have to see what's happening; you don't ask to see your appendix if it's removed. Of course your appendix is not really a baby, is it? Would selling appendix parts be harrowing?

Humperdink said...

AA said: "My link and quotes are from WaPo."

Thank you for correcting me.

OTOH, the Washington Post headline reveals a milder take:

"Undercover video shows Planned Parenthood official discussing fetal organs used for research"

Hey, who can argue with research? *cough*

Big Mike said...

Harrowing video? Did you imagine that abortion was all neat and tidy, Professor?

Gusty Winds said...

Are all legal rights to the fetus as property given up by the patient? Maybe they should share in the profits. And a lawyer should get a percentage.

But then you would insentivize planting the seed to harvest the fruit.

Damn that's evil. Screw it. We're in moral decline anyway.

Matt said...

For the "So, what's the big deal?" people: when women go to PP, not all of them have already decided to get an abortion. Some are scared, confused and seeking guidance. When PP profits* from harvesting organs from the 'clumps of cells', they have a motivation to encourage abortion more often than not. This is an addition to the payment they receive for the abortion itself. PP profits from abortion. Discouraging women from aborting hurts the bottom line. Thus, PP wants abortion safe, legal and... commonplace.

*In the video, the doctor specifically states that they try to get greater payment than just the cost of transportation for the harvested organs.

Gusty Winds said...

Has PETA issued a protest statement?

Humperdink said...

Safe, legal and a profit center. We've come a long way baby (pieces).

Birches said...

“I think the only relevant goal of an abortion clinic is to provide a safe and least risky abortion to a woman,” Caplan said. “If you’re starting to play with how it’s done, and when it’s done, other things than women’s health are coming into play. You’re making a huge mountain of conflict of interest around a period for many people is morally difficult.”

So a woman's well being or profit? Which is it PP?

Drago said...

All that talk of crushing baby parts is going to get some of Althouses regular lefty commentators rather excited. I mean, what better way to show those stupid republicans who the truly enlightened folks are?

Like ISIS chopping off heads to show how committed they are to 7th century values, so the left should be proud of moments like these in order to show their commitment to "choice".

The fact that the lefties can even turn a greater profit on this activity? So much the better.

You know, why doesn't Planned Parenthood simply set up shop adjacent to the research facilities. Then the enlightened lefties could crush, or not crush, whatever parts of the baby is necessary for their enlightened ends, and then wheel the remains of the decidedly not human baby parts through some swinging doors out the back and deliver them immediately into the arms of the researchers.

As the guys from "Living Color" might say: Mo' Money, Mo' Money, Mo' Money!

gspencer said...

Somewhat mystifying to me, perhaps to others.

PP and other champions of abortion declare, pontificate, that it's just a clump of cells.

Yet somehow that clump produces organs that are human. And sale-able because they're human.

Drago said...

Hey, before any of you right-wingers climb up on your high horses, remember: The Crusades.

The rule of Lemnity said...

Planned Parenthood:
Giving ultrasound before an abortion: 'intrusive and invasive'
Giving one during abortion to sell body parts: 'guidance'


Josh Jordan

Birkel said...

Where are the Leftists defending this?
Come now, Professor Althouse, regale us with your insights.

Now, if the fetus was a male (to be) in shorts....

Moneyrunner said...

Ann, here's an analysis of coverage in other media organs: BLACKOUT: Media Go Dark On Planned Parenthood Organ Trafficking http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/14/blackout-media-go-dark-on-planned-parenthood-organ-trafficking/

I saw coverage on Fox tonight, I'll leave it to others to check the rest of the medai.

Moneyrunner said...

The CRUSADES! How could I forget?

Michael K said...

I don't think the left is interested.

Anonymous said...

An antiabortion group on Tuesday released an undercover video of an official at Planned Parenthood discussing in graphic detail how to abort a fetus to preserve its organs for medical research — and also the costs associated with sharing that tissue with scientists."

Is this supposed to be the headline? Because the headline has changed.

Is this supposed to be news? Wow, I bet they spent well over an hour writing that headline. How do they know it's graphic detail on how to abort a fetus to preserve its organs for medical research? What if it's for lunch? They said livers are popular. How does the headline writer know that from the video?

"and also the costs associated with sharing that tissue with scientists" Huh?

Sharing? That's what you call selling human body parts, sharing? Oh, I see, the price they are paying is just the cost it takes to share those body parts.

Dear God we are so screwed. The media has jumped in with both feet.

Moneyrunner said...

What's the feminist angle on this?

Anonymous said...

Blogger Birkel said...
Where are the Leftists defending this?
Come now, Professor Althouse, regale us with your insights.

Now, if the fetus was a male (to be) in shorts....


Are you blind? No offense Birkel, but read the headline. That's their defense right there in the headline.

Moneyrunner said...

eric: get use to the new definitions. What were once taxes are now revenue enhancements. Selling baby body parts is now "sharing."

Lewis Wetzel said...

Feminism, at its core, seems to be about controlling others: control of life and death over children and control of the male gaze.

Anonymous said...

Better tag this one with #fetuslivesdontmatter

Drago said...

Moneyrunner: "What's the feminist angle on this?"

1) Kill babies, harvest parts
2) Sell parts
3) Profit & shut up h8ters!

PB said...

Is there an app for this?

Anonymous said...

Moneyrunner said...
eric: get use to the new definitions. What were once taxes are now revenue enhancements. Selling baby body parts is now "sharing."


Yeah, and we're supposed to be optimistic.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/optimism-vs-anger-question-dividing-bush-from-sanders-and-trump-1436806336

Instead of angry Trump followers.

But I can tell you, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore.

Humperdink said...

I wonder if PP has price list?

2nd Trimester Prices:
Hearts $60
Livers $45
Lungs $50
Eyeballs(complete) $25/pr
Intestines $3/cm

3rd Trimester Prices:
Multiply above by 1.4

Body parts are sold as is, where is.

As these body parts are "harvested" from crushed fetuses, there are no warranties stated or implied.

Body parts can be Fed Ex'ed for an additional charge. Shipping charges are minimal as the parts are ....... shall we say, tiny?

Drago said...

Hey, why do you think the lefties are so hard up to keep the attention on embryonic stem cells and not adult stem cell research and therapies?

Theranter said...

Many years ago when I was prochoice and first heard about this, I was so revolted I tried to convince some women's rights groups as well as some prolife groups to at least start a campaign:

"BYOB to your abortion so they don't profit off your 'mistake'"

and to pass regs that allowed the remains from the aspiration to be sucked into a mason jar and given to the mother so she could dispose of it as she pleased. (and if she then chose to sell it, well, it is her baby, er, property/her choice.)

Still a great idea, but sadly, neither group would buy into it. (Too icky for prolifers, and women’s rights groups afraid it might “hurt the cause”)
Guess I was just ahead of my time.

Also, this is what is helping fuel the market:
Swap a Mouse Gene with Its Human Counterpart: Genetically Humanized Mice

NOG products are generated via sublethal irradiation, surgical implantation of human fetal thymus and liver sections under the mouse renal capsule and IV injection of autologous human hematopoietic stem cells. They are housed for 12+ weeks post -engraftment prior to shipment

(via Taconic dot com) [they are on the linkedin page of the company mentioned and allegedly involved in the PP (alleged) fetal liver trafficking video]

Be said...

The headline reads just like one for a pro PETA piece on Huff Po. (Shrug.)

What I find particularly interesting is how the folks who are the first to be picking apart such 'documentaries' for causes they don't believe in, are so quick to accept similar for their pet causes hook, line, and sinker.

Lewis Wetzel said...

I think it would be great if the abortionist would rub his or her hands together and lick their lips whenever they used the word "harvest."

Fritz said...

Parts is parts.

Humperdink said...

Newsbusters headline:

"FNC's Special Report Covers Video of Planned Parenthood Exec Selling Baby Parts; CNN, MSNBC Skip"

Body parts are not important, unless there is a war going on and Bush is president.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The sale would have gone smoother if the lady had brought samples. Or some pictures of some samples. Or she could have shaped some of her dinner into demos. You know, "it's about as big as this bean, here, but the color is little different. The color is how you tell the freshness of the [rubs hands together, licks lips] harvest."

Mountain Maven said...

Investigate
Prosecute
Convict
Revoke medical licences
Hard Time
Revoke nonprofit status
Defund: 45%+ of revenue comes from the govt.
Bankrupcy

Lewis Wetzel said...

I am getting more conservative as I get older, especially more anti-abortion. I think that it is because I'm more conscious of how language is used. The term "non-viable fetus" means a fetus isn't viable outside the womb, but I hate the "non-viable" part of the phrase. The fetus is perfectly viable (usually) as a fetus. It may not be viable as a human being, but we don't call it a non-viable human being, I suppose because that would make you think it was important to do what can be done to make it viable, instead of hastening its death.

Dr.D said...

This is murder with a specific purpose, a profit motive, in addition to the simple evil that murder always it. This sin hangs over our whole land because it is government sanctioned, supposedly meaning we the people approve (no matter how much we do not approve).

Shame and disgrace upon us as a nation. We murder our children for profit. Is it possible to go any lower? I doubt it.

traditionalguy said...

Partial birth abortion is human farming of human organs on not yet human children. It's all a word play.

These evil people are professional assassins. They kill a baby for a hit man's fee.

The supporters of this practice better be right that there is no God with a lake of fire eternally reserved for them and the wrath to use it.

Static Ping said...

I am getting a very deep appreciation of Jeremiah.

Saint Croix said...

Rand Paul sent me an e-mail inviting me to sign a petition on this.

I haven't watched the video yet. But from the reports I've read, she's talking about committing federal crimes. Partial-birth abortion is a felony. That criminal statute has already been upheld by the Supreme Court.

It's also illegal to traffic in fetal parts. I talk about this in chapter 19 of my book.

One of the appellate briefs in the Carhart litigation describes a market where baby parts are sold to pharmaceutical companies and university research labs. Of course the abortion industry itself is a highly profitable billion-dollar industry. But selling baby parts is a lucrative side business that has developed in the years after Roe v. Wade. And one of the suspicions surrounding this business model is that abortion doctors need to get the baby out of the womb first in order to provide “high quality” fetal parts.

In other words, there is a financial motivation for killing babies outside the birth canal. If you do a D&E abortion, which involves decapitating and dismembering the baby inside the uterus, you could be destroying a valuable resource--the baby parts that could be sold for profit.


There was a 20/20 special on the black market in baby parts 15 years ago. You can find the transcript in this appellate brief. (The Life Dynamics transcript should be read as well, it's quite shocking).

Patrick Henry was right! said...

Somebody forward this to Justice Kennedy. This is on him. And maybe a copy to the Pope. Might get his mind off of global warming. Not.
The Catholic Church deserves what it's got coming to it. Pity.

Bob Boyd said...

Even if you completely disregard the unborn and have concern only for the women involved, these doctors were making abortion procedures longer, more complicated and more dangerous solely to procure tissue specimens for sale without the knowledge or consent of the patients.

Drago said...

Bob Boyd: "Even if you completely disregard the unborn and have concern only for the women involved, these doctors were making abortion procedures longer, more complicated and more dangerous solely to procure tissue specimens for sale without the knowledge or consent of the patients."

How many leftists became unhinged over state laws requiring an ultrasound prior to an abortion and pretended to act as though it was some huge #WarOnWomen issue?

Of course, if an ultrasound is administered so the leftists could harvest baby parts, why, that's just A-OK.

Etienne said...

Everyone knows abortions are terrible. Everyone knows that the people involved in facilitating abortions are not in their dream jobs.

Rather than focus on the blood and guts, what can a society do to help a woman, short of sterilization, who does not want a child, cannot afford a child, or who didn't know she could get pregnant, or rolled the dice that she wouldn't get pregnant.

Rather than have a video war, what is the f'n answer?

How can we pay for the solution?

I think these kind of videos are preaching to the choir.

Gahrie said...

It is a pity those babies didn't have gold teeth that could be pulled.......

Johanna Lapp said...

I'm certain that patients were told that their surgical wastes could and would be sold, as INFORMED CONSENT is so critical to a free choice, amirite?

And if a little more pain and a longer time under anesthesia were needed to preserve the merchandise, the patient's well-being would take sole priority, preventing any CONFLICT OF INTEREST, no?

And all monies received would be shipping and handling costs, not clinic profits, as the sale of body parts is a FELONY, correct?

Drago said...

It's very important to coupe that we immediately turn our attention away from the subject matter of the video.

Coupe: "Everyone knows abortions are terrible."

This is demonstrably untrue. So why are you peddling this line?

Gahrie said...

what can a society do to help a woman

Orphanages and/or adoption.

Drago said...

Gahrie: "It is a pity those babies didn't have gold teeth that could be pulled......"

Perhaps a more efficient means of....processing.....these....non-humans...could yield even greater benefits for our brave new world.

I wonder if a proper cost/benefit analysis showing the Break-even point for Planned Parenthood clinics has been conducted?

Rob said...

Has Planned Parenthood learned nothing from President Obama? Nucatola should already have been thrown under the bus. They'll have to throw her there eventually. Waiting only makes things worse. Oh, and the president and CEO of Planned Parenthood, who's shown at the end of the video--she's gotta go under the bus too. Tout suite.

Jane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jane said...

Coupe: Hundreds of my friends and their kids walk to fundraise, put on plays to fundraise, etc., for Carenet.

http://www.care-net.org/

Millions in taxpayer funds would save babies and help moms, but that goes to PP butchers instead.

Matt Sablan said...

I listened to the audio just in the short video. I'm fairly well convinced SOMETHING illegal is happening. One quote is: “Some people want lower extremities… I don’t know what they do with it.” Yeah. That sounds like we’re donating things to medical research.

They also specifically discuss obscuring their financial transactions. That's normally damning when investigating any other organization.

Another quote: “[the partial birth abortion ban] is a law… and laws are up to interpretation.” She knows what she’s doing is illegal, and is trying to sugar coat it to make the buyer comfortable. Like the guy who is selling watches at the train station who says, “No man, my dad just died and I’m trying to clear out his watch collection.”

Her reasoning is that as long as she says she isn’t TRYING to do a partial birth abortion, but if it happens, oh well, no crime committed. What she’s arguing is that, if anyone asks, she’s going to say that wasn’t the intent of the procedure, but it just got goofed and that’s what happened. Too bad we have her on tape saying they INTENTIONALLY try to manipulate the abortion into a partial birth abortion to preserve more specimens.

She actually says “If they’re reasonable people [they’ll be willing to do this thing for us.]” That’s like… I couldn’t write a more cliche “evil people talking about being paid to do something they know is illegal.” / “Well, reasonable people can make accommodations for your needs.”

The fact she says they need the Supreme Court won't sign off on what their doing is another indication she knows what they are doing is illegal. Whatever it is she's doing, she's convinced it isn't legal, and is acting in such a way that it is reasonable to assume she thinks that way.

Matt Sablan said...

Humperdink: To be fair to the WaPo, they ran an article on it today.

Saint Croix said...

I applaud the Washington Post for reporting on this, by the way. It would be quite easy for journalists to ignore this story. (Lots of journalists are ignoring this story!)

What jumps out at me in this story is how the paper's pro-choice ideology is at war with the paper's instinct for news. Her quotes are quite damning. And so they are buried deep into the story.

"We’ve been very good at getting heart, lung, liver, because we know that, so I’m not gonna crush that part, I’m gonna basically crush below, I’m gonna crush above, and I’m gonna see if I can get it all intact."

That's the 12th paragraph!

Beldar said...

Our host concluded this post by writing: "Here's the harrowing video."

That choice of words made me gasp (although I'm sufficiently jaded and realistic to have been totally unsurprised by the video itself, which I'd have instead have called "opportunistically ghoulish").

Here's the dictionary.com definition of the noun "harrow," which spawned and ties directly to the dictionary definition (albeit secondary) of the adjective "harrowing":

"an agricultural implement with spikelike teeth or upright disks, drawn chiefly over plowed land to level it, break up clods, root up weeds, etc."

What art, what skill, what maniacal and wicked and sickening art, it takes to use an ultrasound device and forceps to enable one to selectively crush a fetus' less-marketable parts! From Hell, the foul soul of Doctor Josef Mengele could but marvel and applaud.

Leigh said...

Sent the WaPo link to a leftist friend with the comment "this is pretty f*cking stunning." Her response was that anything could be edited down to look "pretty f*cking stunning." Meh. Never mind. I keep forgetting that having a different opinion is cause for outrage. So I didn't bother to tell her I'd watched the entire unedited three hour meeting and WaPo made the PP doctor look GOOD. At least twice (and not shown in the clip) the PP doc said this business of selling body parts is all in how you frame it.

Especially disturbing to me (watching the full 3 hours) was that some "providers" will change the presentation of the "fetus from vertex to breech" so that if the "procurer" wants a good "calvarium" it's much easier to obtain "intact." When the PP doc was asked if women were told the fetus would be repositioned for this purpose, her answer was no. This is a big deal: the fetus is pulled out by the feet and legs (so there will be plenty of room for it to emerge by then, the doc explained, and hence no need to crush it) and then killed just before the head emerges. AND it's a felony.

In any event, it's ironic -- and outrageous -- what these "empowering feminist" providers don't want their presumedly infantile patients to know about this supposed flowers-and-unicorns tissue-collection "procedure." And leaving out the change in "presentation technique" so the head of the woman's baby -- oh, sorry, fetus -- can be "repurposed" is hardly informed consent.

There was also discussion about strategy -- when in the process consent would be the easiest to obtain -- and how it can be used to assuage the woman's conflicting feelings about having the abortion in the first place. And hey, it boosts the morale of the "provider" too! They're just "adding another level of good to what they're already providing." Like the PP doc glibly said, "it's all about framing this."

Personally I can't imagine the agony a woman goes through when deciding whether to abort, and I have no desire to judge. But when abortion advocates -- often the same folks who want "personhood rights" for gorillas -- become rabid because many states have banned abortions after the "fetus" is five months old, I lose all patience. Today I informed a friend about what goes on with these aborted fetuses and she became fairly rabid, too. It's confusing. Aren't leftists all about the science?

Finally, a word to the wise: with leftists, don't ever, ever raise the subject whether the "fetus" feels pain during an abortion. For some reason, they become enraged. Yet, point out that the majority of aborted "fetuses" are black and they're happy to tell you, most unabashedly and often quite smugly, that it's all for the best because, golly, what a terrible home life that black child would have had.

Matt said...

The stated nonsense about "covering costs" for donation of the tissue is absolute, complete and utter bullshit.

Why?

Because in the video different dollar amounts are given on a PER ORGAN BASIS. Dollar amounts that vary by large amounts. 50-100% difference based on which Organ. That means market based prices on availability, and most certainly NOT simply covering costs for transport/packaging.

It's not 100% more expensive to package and ship a fetal liver than it is a fetal heart. But it is, it would seem, 100% more in demand.

Freeman Hunt said...

Choice. They're choosing to crush the less valuable parts of people in order to kill them and trade in human organs. How can you not be pro that? Would you take away this woman's right to define morality and personhood for herself? Are you trying to mansplain to her that trafficking in human organs carefully harvested by skilled workers from babies they crushed to death for pay is wrong? Tsk, tsk.

Saint Croix said...

good catch, Matt.

Saint Croix said...

I cannot get the WaPo (or the Althouse) video to play for me. Weird.

For other people having the same problem, here is the Center for Medical Progress video.

Saint Croix said...

New York Times has a story on it.

Saint Croix said...

And Politico.

Paul said...

Baby? Fetus?

Soon Soylent Green really will be people.

All it takes is people to not care.

Smilin' Jack said...

Here's the harrowing video:

tl;dw. Just out of curiosity, though...is it more harrowing than a gay wedding?

YoungHegelian said...

Everybody's slamming PP here, but there's a another whole crew of villains here that no one has mentioned: the medical research labs that purchase these fetal body parts.

Do you really think those labs are unaware of the process by which the tissues are obtained?

YoungHegelian said...

The abortion industry is like the sex industry: legal or not, it's a nasty business full of people who take advantage of other people's misery. There are good reasons why medical students avoid abortions like the plague.

As for this scandal, it's just one more in the list.

eddie willers said...

Saint Croix said...
New York Times has a story on it.

7/14/15, 11:47 PM
Saint Croix said...
And Politico.


So did Fox News scoop them.....or shame them?

n.n said...

YoungHegelian:

The abortion industry and the market it serves, but also the political, economic, and social web that first legalized, then normalized the underlying practice. The former exists in some black market form throughout the world, but it is uncommon for it to have mainstream and even popular support. This represents, not an unprecedented, but an extraordinary breakdown of civilization.

Levi Starks said...

I imagine abortion facilitating doctors and nurses view themselves as immune to justice in exactly the same way as the medical providers of the 3rd Reich.

Alex said...

Yet the elephant in the room(discussed in Freakonomics) is how the mass abortion of minority babies has reduced the crime rate.

Etienne said...

Back in May, France made a new law that unwanted food must be given to a charity, or a composting entity, instead of destroying it (usually by pouring bleach on it), and sending it to the landfill.

Maybe the USA could make a similar law for unwanted fetuses. That way, they won't just go to a landfill or incinerator.

Mark Caplan said...

It hasn't occurred to anyone that harvesting fetal organs for medical research is pro-life.

Etienne said...

Orphanages and/or adoption.

I think this is a good idea, but it requires a huge investment.

If the states pay for all associated costs to the woman. The reason many women want an abortion is they can't afford to go full term. They may have social or employment problems. Some may even lose their jobs.

So, let's pay these women to have babies. Yes, increase taxes or debt, and pay for these women to supply the baby warehouses, and couples can order online via the Internet even... Certainly adopters can also pay their fair share to help fund the program.

Call it the "Save the Baby from the Landfill" program.

Humperdink said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Humperdink said...

Matt said: "Humperdink: To be fair to the WaPo, they ran an article on it today."

Yes, I mentioned my omission later in the thread.

OTOH, I suspect the result will be the same by the MSM, a collective yawn.

Humperdink said...

And in case anyone was wondering where the democrat presidential candidates stood:

"None of the declared Democratic presidential candidates — former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Sen. Bernie Sanders, former Gov. Martin O’Malley, former Sen. Jim Webb, and former Gov. Lincoln Chafee — responded to multiple requests for comment from The Daily Caller News Foundation regarding the video.....Democratic National Committee chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz also did not respond to multiple requests for comment."

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/14/dem-candidates-silent-on-alleged-planned-parenthood-felonies/


Scott said...

Tell me why Planned Parenthood has nonprofit status with the IRS. Seriously.

Renee said...

Ever think that these women actually want to keep their child, but the father, her parents, her friends, her school/employment situation pushed her into having an abortion?

Adoption has it's own set of problems.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ala-mom-newborn-adoption-pleas-article-1.2287348

Baby Stealing....

Anonymous said...

I just became pro-life.

Brando said...

Whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, if an abortion is going to happen doesn't it make more sense to use the fetus for research or saving lives than to just incinerate it? I hardly think anyone who is considering whether to have an abortion will sway their decision based on the knowledge that the fetus won't go to waste. As an analogy, I can't imagine that my decision whether to keep a loved one on life support would be different knowing that if I pulled the plug the organs could be used for research or saving others' lives (though I certainly would want my own organs used for such purposes once I'm dead).

I think the uproar over this news item has more to do with the seeming callousness of the Planned Parenthood official than it does with whether they are making use of the fetus.

Jim in St Louis said...

Althouse- Thank You for posting this.

Humperdink said...

"I think the uproar over this news item has more to do with the seeming callousness of the Planned Parenthood official than it does with whether they are making use of the fetus."

You sure know little about the pro-life movement.

79 said...

The most dangerous period in the lifetime of any human being is the 9 months he or she spends inside "mommy's" body. 1,000,000+ women murder their own children each year in the US.The fact that we silently watch as tax dollars support this butchery makes us all complicit.

"The crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with blood." John Brown 1859

Curious George said...

Althouse thinks arbortion is murder. Unless the mom doesn't think so. Then it's harrowing.

And if you think that idiocy is something, read this:

"Mark Caplan said...
It hasn't occurred to anyone that harvesting fetal organs for medical research is pro-life."

Has it occurred to you that so would be killing you for yours then asshole. Step up and deliver.

Vet66 said...

Planned Parenthood and those that support the abortion industry have no respect for the dignity and intrinsic worth of the individual whether alive or dead. It is an abomination and unworthy of the human race to engage in such barbarism. When a cause becomes a movement becomes a business they lose the moral imperative that was the original cause.

rhhardin said...

Walter Williams has a nice story about taking organs for money.

He dies, and they ask his daughter if they can have his organs.

His daughter says no. Daddy is going out of this world the same way he came into it.

We'll give you $100,000 say the doctors.

Take anything you want, says the daughter.

So there's an organ for money taboo; and a fetus as baby taboo. They put them together for you.

Amichel said...

My Grandad sells cheap prophylactics,
And punctures the teats with a pin.
For Grandma gets rich from abortions,
My God how the money rolls in.

Rolls in , rolls in,
My God how the money rolls in, rolls in.
Rolls in, rolls in, rolls in,
My God how the money rolls in.

PB said...

The matter of evil seems a mere mundane task to this woman.

Etienne said...

Society has to pay for the woman who has no regard for life.

Where we argue, is how to pay for it, and how to mechanize it.

This shouldn't be left up to lawyers and religious leaders, although they should have a say in how the rules are crafted.

If we say women cannot terminate their pregnancies, then we have to say, we will take care of the costs. So every woman in America, can have a free baby, and society pays for it. Medical threat to life excepted.

Michael K said...

"doesn't it make more sense to use the fetus for research or saving lives than to just incinerate it?"

There was a huge scandal at UC, Irvine a few years ago over selling body parts from donated cadavers. The body parts were used in classes teaching certain types of surgery , research in other words. Those were donated bodies. This is far worse.

Tank said...

Once you've crushed the head of an unborn baby, what you have left over are basically spare parts. Either you can throw them in the garbage, or sell them for a nice profit.

1. Crush head.
2. Sell spare parts.
3. Profit.

If you think step 1 is OK, why should you object to steps 2 and 3?

Unknown said...

At the risk of Godwin, if this is as common as she makes it seem, abortionists have cut up and harvested more humans than the nazis.

Curious George said...

"Coupe said...
Society has to pay for the woman who has no regard for life.

Where we argue, is how to pay for it, and how to mechanize it.

This shouldn't be left up to lawyers and religious leaders, although they should have a say in how the rules are crafted.

If we say women cannot terminate their pregnancies, then we have to say, we will take care of the costs. So every woman in America, can have a free baby, and society pays for it. Medical threat to life excepted."

What a fucking steaming pile. Start with opinion as fact, and you are off to the races.

Rusty said...

Coupe said...
Society has to pay for the woman who has no regard for life.

Where we argue, is how to pay for it, and how to mechanize it.

This shouldn't be left up to lawyers and religious leaders, although they should have a say in how the rules are crafted.

If we say women cannot terminate their pregnancies, then we have to say, we will take care of the costs. So every woman in America, can have a free baby, and society pays for it. Medical threat to life excepted.


Racism duly noted.
Here's an odd thought.
Pretty sure no one has thought of this before.
What if there was some socially conscious organization that would instruct, educate women on how not to get pregnant in the first place.
Oh. But then.
No profit for PP.
Never mind.

Skipper said...

Hannibal Lecter would be proud.

Skeptical Voter said...

Well it is a step forward. Obama once promoted a bill in Illinois that would allow a baby who survived an unsuccessful abortion to be simply left on a shelf to die. Some little heads are just too hard to crush. OTOH this is the first time I've heard of an abortionist crushing the other end (legs and feet) as well.

I've got two grandchildren now--oldest just turned two. Their mother (my daughter) is a thoroughly modern young professional woman, and I was treated more than once to sonogram sessions where you could see the four or five month old fetus/infant moving in the womb. The technician could even spot the sex of the child. These weren't medical sonograms--not at all. There's a cottage industry that's sprung up where expectant mothers can go have a sonogram with family members and friends invited to the viewing. At the end of the session the young mother to be is handed a digital recording of the session. It's a straight commercial transaction.

Let's just say that I could have passed on the opportunity--old fashioned I guess.

But there's a reason why anti abortion types would like to insist that a mother to be undergo a sonogram session before committing to an abortion. There's absolutely no doubt on the sonogram that the fetus is a human being in progress.

Rusty said...

T Rellis said...
At the risk of Godwin, if this is as common as she makes it seem, abortionists have cut up and harvested more humans than the nazis.


Hitler was big fan of Margret Sanger and progressives in general.
But you're right. The banality of evil.
Like the Nazi elite meeting to discuss the most efficient way to use and murder their undermenchen.
The shame is that they can't get these fetuses to do some useful work before they are killed.

MayBee said...

Why should Planned Parenthood- a private entity- be able to sell organs for profit if I can't sell my kidney for profit?

MayBee said...

And yes, every Democrat candidate and politician should be asked about this. Emily's list is a huge Democrat donor, and Emily's list is all about abortion.

Chase them down. Hound them. Act as if it were Donald Trump doing it, media. Make everybody comment about it.

Matt Sablan said...

Honestly, the organ selling part will be really hard to prove. They'll claim it is for research and legal, and that their costs are reasonable and not profit motivated, and no judge in the country is going to challenge them on it.

The attack needs to be that partial birth abortions ARE illegal, and that telling a woman you will conduct a legal abortion, then deliberately inducing a partial birth to perform an illegal medical procedure so you can harvest more body parts from the fetus she wanted to terminate is grossly unethical, and most likely illegal.

That's the angle that will have a chance of being successful. Planned Parenthood is encouraging its doctors to break the law, and to lie to their patients while doing so.

Helenhightops said...

I heard it on Good Morning America today.

I listened to the whole thing, and like Matt, I heard her saying they "buff the chart" to cover for illegal acts. They know they intend to do an partial birth abortion in order to preserve body parts, but as long as they pretend it became medically necessary during the procedure they have plausible deniability.

I don't see any way to whitewash what I heard.

gerry said...



...especially if that human being is black.

Pro-abortionists are racist.

Bob Boyd said...

I wonder what kind of records were kept on these procedures.
Did they record that they reoriented the fetus and why? Did they record what parts were successfully harvested from which patient and where they went? Did they record a failed effort to to harvest parts? Were the ultrasounds preserved?

machine said...

you've been Breitbarted...

Etienne said...

What if there was some socially conscious organization that would instruct, educate women on how not to get pregnant in the first place.

That is performed in public schools, or it was when I was in the 8th grade. Trouble is, 6th grade kids are now having sex, and society balks at educating pubescent children on sex.

12 year old girls having an 8 pound baby is an expensive proposition, and we need to redirect funds from nuclear weapons to expanding welfare.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Wow.

I had thought Althouse's MO was defending unspeakable destruction of anything weaker than her.

Hum.

Helenhightops said...

Bob Boyd, abortion is almost always a cash only procedure. With no insurance involved, the need to document in order to receive payment does not exist; therefore, documentation is likely to be extremely minimal. And anytime legislation is introduced even to mandate minimal infection control procedures, or to bring facilities half-way to the standards of ambulatory surgery centers, abortion activists protest. I'll bet there is a sparse "point and click" chart entry.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Don't murder me, I beg of you don 't murder me.

Don't murder me.

Cynicus said...

PPP=Planned Parenthood Provider=Profits Per Partner.

Todd said...

Gusty Winds said... [hush]​[hide comment]
Has PETA issued a protest statement?

7/14/15, 9:07 PM


Why would they care? Its not like this is happening to fetal kittens and puppies. Besides, if they pipe up, that might bring too much attention to their own "killing fields".

http://justplainenglish.blogspot.com/2012/02/more-peta-kills-animals.html

Alexander said...

There is nothing surprising about this. If you view an unborn human as 'tissue' at best and 'parasite' at worst, then why wouldn't you sell it if someone offers you a buck. Sure, you might have to do it under the table but that's only because of those stupid Christians who want to punish women.

It's like being appalled that the Nazis went and took the gold out of mouths of dead Jews.

The act is completely rational once you accept the initial horror as valid.

Every pro-abortion person gets to own this. You deny the humanity, you reap the completely unsurprising consequences of that position.

Plus - as I said in a thread earlier (what timing!), Planned Parenthood was started with the expressed intent of culling out undesirable demographics. It was a malicious eugenics program from day 1. It's one thing to be surprised at an unknown evil, it's another to claim you didn't know or expect any untoward behavior when you sided with a known one.

As a final note, which feels a bit petty in light of what's gone down but does need to be hit while the iron is hot: I'm going to laugh in the face of every leftist who uses the term 'people over profits'. I have no interest in your rhetoric against a market system while your buddies are hacking up dead babies for cash. I will happily bludgeon every idiot with a desire for collectivism with this bludgeon.

And tell us again, why don't you, how there's no risk of a government funded "health" program leading to death panels? Ethics, morals! Lives count more than the bottom line!

Bay Area Guy said...

It is a harrowing video, but not surprising at all. The Left views this more of a feature, than a bug. To accomplish their goal of maximum sexualization, the Left had to dehumanize the unborn baby. Make it more like an unwanted tumor, than a baby. Make it an impediment to free sex and women's liberation.

Once that was achieved, the sellling or researching of the dehumanized remains for profit, isn't that far of a stretch. But it is only a secondary consideration.

machine said...

context matters...see "State"

Todd said...

Coupe said...
Everyone knows abortions are terrible. Everyone knows that the people involved in facilitating abortions are not in their dream jobs.

Rather than focus on the blood and guts, what can a society do to help a woman, short of sterilization, who does not want a child, cannot afford a child, or who didn't know she could get pregnant, or rolled the dice that she wouldn't get pregnant.

Rather than have a video war, what is the f'n answer?

7/14/15, 10:38 PM


Are you playing a part (i.e. is this sarcasm) or are you really that clueless?

Lets see...

There is abstinence, condoms, "free" birth control (pills), IUDs, the once-a-year injected stuff, the morning after pill, giving up for adoption, and legal abandonment. There are vast numbers of charities and religious organizations that will help someone who is pregnant with a place to stay, medical care, birthing assistance, and adoption (giving up the child) assistance.

What more do you think can be done? Hell schools already show pre-teens how to use condoms and vibrators and explain the "joys" of anal sex.

We are drowning in "answers".

Alexander said...

Everyone knows abortions are terrible. Everyone knows that the people involved in facilitating abortions are not in their dream jobs.

Bullshit. I've heard the word 'parasite' used to describe a fetus. Not just once. You see the looks of triumph or the absolute batshit tantrums the pro-abortion activist will have on the issue. There are loads of people who see abortion as a power of good, and I've no doubt people working there are happy to do so.

Don't give us this 'we all agree it's evil, but perhaps it's a necessary one' bullshit.

Todd wraps it up nicely.

You just have realized that your side has been punched in the face with an absolutely damning (in all senses) video, so now its time to run interference and bemoan (as an unbiased witness to society!) that *this isn't helping* and *what can be done!?*

Etienne said...

We are drowning in "answers".

and yet we still have women getting abortions.

Until you get to zero abortions, not based on law, but based on social conscious, or the new Progressive (Marxist) goals for America, you are a loser.

The loser plan is a video war.

Martha said...

We drowned in the moral equivalency of "choices".

Planned Parenthood morphed into an assembly line to re-purpose disposable unwanted products of irresponsible sexual intercourse.

Sammy Finkelman said...

The whole thing was a sting operaton, though, because there's nobody actually doing this, and probably nobody who would want to.

Etienne said...

...your side...

I don't have a side. I don't have a dog in the hunt.

I'm talking conceptually, what must be done that hasn't already been fought politically, legally, or violently.

Humperdink said...

I sure hope Planned Parenthood (gag) is collecting sales tax on their cottage(nice touch) industry. Sure wouldn't want PP to run afoul of the law. (For the clueless, sarc alert)

Wince said...

If she performs abortions like she eats that salad good luck.

Humperdink said...

".........because there's nobody actually doing this, and probably nobody who would want to."

Hmm, I wonder what the Jews were thinking as they were boarding the box cars.

Etienne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ron Winkleheimer said...

"Otherwise they are going to wind up in a land fill somewhere."

I think the tissue would be considered hazardous medical waste, and thus it would have to go to a special incinerator.

I have always assumed that is why Gosnell kept all those aborted babies at his abattoir. He didn't want to spend the money necessary to legally dispose of the corpses.

Matt Sablan said...

By the way: If PP is doing nothing wrong, this is why you avoid even the APPEARANCE of impropriety.

People have been investigated for less than this. Much, much less than this. Subpoena it all, issue an injunction that they are to stop touching their records until the FBI comes and claims them all. Because, frankly, they've now had a day and a half to clean up any evidence -- which is more than enough time.

Each minute we waste having a court and armed police walk in with a cease and desist order and start securing potential evidence is a minute longer that they may be destroying evidence.

If we don't get an order to investigate for another day or two, the investigation will probably be fatally compromised if there was anything to find -- assuming the wrong doers are even mildly competent.

Sydney said...

I see that the spin in the MSM is the line that Planned Parenthood is spinning. That this was edited to look bad. Hard to see how that conversation could be parsed innocently, though.

Etienne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Known Unknown said...

"New York Times has a story on it."

Their headline: Video accuses Planned Parenthood of crime.

Very vague. Seems to damn the video as the problem. Also a video cannot accuse.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

"Finally, a word to the wise: with leftists, don't ever, ever raise the subject whether the "fetus" feels pain during an abortion. For some reason, they become enraged."

They know that if that is true (which it is) then they are supporting something evil. And since they are on the left they cannot, by definition, support evil.

Cognitive dissonance concerning the conception of the self generally does produce rage.

Known Unknown said...

Politico headline: GOP candidates call for action after undercover Planned Parenthood video

GOP calls for action. That shitty GOP, all up in our pro-choice business again. Those clueless, racist, sexist white guys.

Michael McNeil said...

Hey, why do you think the lefties are so hard up to keep the attention on embryonic stem cells and not adult stem cell research and therapies?

I'm not a lefty, and don't care to comment with regard to their motivations, but I'll try to address stem cells in the present context. In the first place, with regard to your question, embryonic stem cells are needed to do basic research, whose subsequently derived treatments will in most cases ultimately be delivered using adult “reprogrammed” stem cells obtained from the individual being treated.

However — embryonic stem cells are irrelevant in the context of Althouse's posting — because fetuses (which are what “participate” [are killed] in abortions) are not embryos! And hence no longer contain embryonic stem cells — they might as well be adults as far as their stem cells are concerned. As a result abortions are not — and cannot be — a source for embryonic stem cells used in research or anything else.

I could stop right there (and go ahead and skip on if you like), but I think it's important to make a couple of additional points.

First, dramatically unlike donated organs, there is absolutely no need or purpose in “harvesting” embryonic stem cells — at least in the sense of acquiring any large number of cells, or on a continuing basis — in order to conduct embryonic stem cell research. 

This is a consequence of the fact that “lines” (lineages) of stem cells are indefinitely self-perpetuating and self reproducing — once a few representative cells have been acquired — i.e. teased out of an embryo.

Moreover, only a relatively few genetically distinct stem cell lines are needed in order to conduct all the necessary research in how to control this potent tool facing us of stem cells employed in medicine.

Nonetheless, it is desirable to found a new embryonic stem cell line every now and then for research purposes, due to deficiencies of one sort or another in existing lineages. The source for “founding” stem cells used in that situation is not abortion (which as I say cannot be used for that), but in vitro fertilization services provided to otherwise infertile couples — so they can have babies, not kill them!

There are always too many embryos created in vitro fertilization work, which are eventually discarded once a couple has achieved their goal of having x many children. Saving a few stem cells from an otherwise doomed embryo, to help learn how to use stem cells to preserve human life and health in the future, (I say) is not an ignoble purpose in that circumstance!

Notice too that it is individual stem cells (taken once) in the present context, vis-à-vis whole organs from a late-term, nearly ready for birth fetus (taken again and again and again) in the other context — that of Althouse's posting.

But anyway, regardless of the merits of stem cell research (and I think they're huge), it has nothing to do with abortion. Zero, zilch, zip.

furious_a said...

"Organlegging" --another Larry Niven future concept, like "flashmobs", coming to life.

Etienne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

On twitter yesterday I posed a question to a pro choicer who used the "scientific research" justification. I asked "what is your position on animal research?" Answer: it's unethical.

furious_a said...

Planned Parenthood, the whole grisly parts chain-of-custody and their choice-splainers are phucking ghouls, preying on the defenseless living like vampires.

gerry said...

Saving a few stem cells from an otherwise doomed embryo, to help learn how to use stem cells to preserve human life and health in the future, (I say) is not an ignoble purpose in that circumstance!

Unfortunately, that is justifying an evil means (destruction of human life) by its ends (possibly beneficial research).

Matt Sablan said...

"I think for affiliates, at the end of the day, they’re a non-profit, they just don’t want to—they want to break even. And if they can do a little better than break even, and do so in a way that seems reasonable, they’re happy to do that."

-- Hot Air pulls that quote from the longer video. If that's a real quote, then that shows a profit motive.

Freeman Hunt said...

Why should Planned Parenthood- a private entity- be able to sell organs for profit if I can't sell my kidney for profit?

No, no, MayBee. That's selling your own. You have to cave in another guy's skull and sell his. Make sure he's a very tiny guy; then it's okay.

Also interesting that many of these people insist there's no baby. It's all notbabies with baby organs. Little sacks of profit. How convenient.

jr565 said...

Planned parenthood should have butcher shop in the back: we got a sale on ribs. Sale on ribs. You want some livers? 3 for price of 2. These are some fresh livers. freshly harvested TODAY. 5 hearts? We're low on hearts today. We had a mad rush and sold most of them off. How about some legs, maybe a brain or two.

Jason said...

Caplan: "It hasn't occurred to anyone that harvesting fetal organs for medical research is pro-life."


Can we have your liver, then?

Michael McNeil said...

Unfortunately, that is justifying an evil means (destruction of human life) by its ends (possibly beneficial research).

So infertile parents who want to have children, and with the assistance of in vitro fertilization services succeed in making babies for themselves, are doing evil?

Beyond that, you're talking about a mote, less than a mote: literally only a handful of (completely undifferentiated) cells — and a brainless, heartless handful at that — versus the “beam in the eye” of late-term, “partial birth” abortion: involving (murdering) a developed baby, with a baby's brain. Equating these two very different extremes — one at the absolute beginning, the other near the absolute end of a baby's development — in my view, simply minimizes the horror of the latter.

Saint Croix said...

Yet the elephant in the room(discussed in Freakonomics) is how the mass abortion of minority babies has reduced the crime rate.

That Freakonomics chapter has been rebutted.

Note too that this chapter relied heavily on Jonathan Gruber for its analysis.

Jason said...

Finkelstein: The whole thing was a sting operaton, though, because there's nobody actually doing this, and probably nobody who would want to.

It's not as if they actually have the medical director for the whole organization on video saying it's commonplace and routine.

Idiot.

I'm Full of Soup said...

I am reading the commments from the bottom up and Jason and Freeman Hunt are on fire!

Rusty said...

Coupe said...
We are drowning in "answers".

and yet we still have women getting abortions.

Until you get to zero abortions, not based on law, but based on social conscious, or the new Progressive (Marxist) goals for America, you are a loser.

The loser plan is a video war.


No. The loser plan is acting as if pregnancy is inevitable.
You place yourself in the position of applauding unwanted pregnancies because there is a profit to made from dead babies.

Scott said...

Strange that this news story broke today:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/07/15/former-auschwitz-guard-4-convicted-300000-counts-accessory-to-murder/

No connection of course...

Mark Caplan said...

It's profoundly unintelligent to label a large percentage of Americans as monsters, body snatchers, vampires, Nazi medical experimenters, baby killers, Hannibal Lecters and so forth. Americans who see no moral wrong in aborting a pregnancy simply don't regard a fetus as a person. There is a long-standing tradition in Western civilization that has defined a person as a reasoning, cognizant, self-conscious being. Evangelical Christians and Republican presidential candidates disagree with that long-standing definition, but surely we can disagree as dignified, civilized adults without the childish name-calling.

jeff said...

Thanks skeptical voter, I couldn't have said it better.

Freeman Hunt said...

It's profoundly unintelligent to label a large percentage of Americans as monsters, body snatchers, vampires, Nazi medical experimenters, baby killers, Hannibal Lecters and so forth. Americans who see no moral wrong in aborting a pregnancy simply don't regard a fetus as a person. There is a long-standing tradition in Western civilization that has defined a person as a reasoning, cognizant, self-conscious being. Evangelical Christians and Republican presidential candidates disagree with that long-standing definition, but surely we can disagree as dignified, civilized adults without the childish name-calling.

I read this in a German accent.

Freeman Hunt said...

And just now I read it in a Deep South accent.

damikesc said...

It's profoundly unintelligent to label a large percentage of Americans as monsters, body snatchers, vampires, Nazi medical experimenters, baby killers, Hannibal Lecters and so forth. Americans who see no moral wrong in aborting a pregnancy simply don't regard a fetus as a person. There is a long-standing tradition in Western civilization that has defined a person as a reasoning, cognizant, self-conscious being. Evangelical Christians and Republican presidential candidates disagree with that long-standing definition, but surely we can disagree as dignified, civilized adults without the childish name-calling.

Slave owners believed the same about their slaves.

Whatever lets you sleep at night.

Todd said...

Mark Caplan said...

Americans who see no moral wrong in aborting a pregnancy simply don't regard a fetus as a person. There is a long-standing tradition in Western civilization that has defined a person as a reasoning, cognizant, self-conscious being. Evangelical Christians and Republican presidential candidates disagree with that long-standing definition, but surely we can disagree as dignified, civilized adults without the childish name-calling.

7/15/15, 3:29 PM


There indeed was a time when it was either "a child" or "not a child" if it was not yet born. We have progressed to the point where we have ample proof that what is in a women is indeed a child for some number of weeks/months prior to it being officially born. To continue to view the unborn as "not a child" is going against science. You may think that a "long-standing definition" is sufficient but as many others were told as to SSM, times change, get with them.

That which develops within a woman can survive outside of the womb at earlier and earlier dates. Even if you wish to maintain a woman's "right to choose", one should at least recognize that something that will become a child should be treated with the same respect as a child. What PP is doing is despicable. They are ending lives for money. They are misleading their clientele as to what they actually do and how. They stand in the way of actual "informed consent" by attempting to prevent their clients from "understanding" what happens when they perform abortions.

You can disagree as to what this latest revelation reveals as to PPs profit motivations but they do accept money from "sources" to perform abortions and those that are involved are paid.

There are cases where an abortion could be understandable but the vast majority are done for convenience and profit.

Anonymous said...

Reinhard
The world is just a barrel-organ which the Lord God turns Himself.
We all have to dance to the tune which is already on the drum.
- From “Amen” by Bruno Heydrich
Jan. 20, 1942
Wannsee House. Its wings of stone unfold
To expand upon a mere eighty-five minutes
Enclosed by the written minutes of history.
They bear our words aloft as its only witnesses.
But stark with refutation of its pinions,
The villa’s cold, translucent panes, dark and
Deformed, ripple and buckle before
A thousand winter suns and earnest Baltic winds.
Thus comes death from the east? We’ll make reply:
The sound of quills sharpening. The suck
And sumptuous appetite of fountain pens
Leaning their brass beaks into their work,
Engorging bladders, gobbed and dripping black
At the gathering of nibs by the inkwell.
But I am undisturbed. The serenity here
Is music missing only the poetry of action -
It will come along soon enough for our tastes.
There, on the other side, the Wintergarden.
The crouching stone bench. The runic sundial
In total shade. The fountain fossilized and mute.
These true residents alone rejoice in time.
The rest, we are boarders urged to move on.
So, the rose’s thorns and dead petals gone to earth,
The seasons’ nine months of pretty leaves
Received as refugees, hide in their surroundings.
The ordered beauty of the Wintergarten,
It pains me to speculate on its Junes, Julys….
The opera of the rose, the overture of its folds.
Now, nostalgia is all, memory without redress.
Rendered to earth, abused until the spring,
The squared-off trimness is blurred with sorrow.
The last of the boots have made their statement
And stand at attention. The first shall be last….
In through the alcove’s wall of windows,
The light become a translation of rainbows.
The sagging panes like ice sheets in slow melt
Bulge the leaden frame’s base into the sill
As if the entire house were sinking back to earth.
But we know it is not. Quite the opposite.
Today, Wannsee is the only place left on earth.
From here, we rebuild and rejoice in the light
We shed for humanity, our humanity.
As if fostering songs of spring in winter’s heart,
Das Wannseehaus, Its windows showcase
The lake spreading its stain of bruised blue.
The Grossen Wannsee: famous for its regattas
And tea parties, Weimar excess married to
The older considerations, including cognac
Served by waiters dressed for the occasion
As male brides in polished spats and whites,
Winking at you as they light your wife’s cigarette.

Anonymous said...

A throat cleared, the table cleared of lunch.
I hum a snatch of something from childhood.
It’s almost a prayer, a strange sense of reaching
For something in the heart, a picture book
From childhood you know is not there,
And yet you reach. –A windows bursts open
And secretaries scramble to save their papers.
The wind wounds the lake with slanted shadows.
Calls for fresh rounds of cigarettes and coffee
Return us to the world of things at hand.
The napkin rings serve as playthings; forks mark
Locations, and knives point out supply routes
While pepper mill and salt box serve as depots.
As we attend to business, upper-class whores,
Like a gaggle of lawyers awaiting cases,
Sit in a corner, awaiting further orders.
Tossed in scripted nonchalance, our field hats
With eagle crests and patent leather brims
Pile like grey soufflés on the table in the hall.
The darkened stains of sweat on the inner rim
Of each bears up like a happy thought
That moment when we took our seats,
And launched into the formal conference,
Determining history, and bleeding red ink
From our hands to pen and paper, stamped
As any heel to stone, any steel to wood.
No words can describe. No words do justice.
How do you explain success in such terms?
The light from the lake conspired with my joy.
It was total. It was fulfillment. All eyes on me.
It was more than my father could compose
From his conservatory eyes and metronome.
The failed composer and failed watercolorist,
Birds of a feather, never would listen, never know…
I was an artist, more so. My subject was man
And I myself the canvas, the instrument, the form.
The successful service man, his uniform tastes
And predilections easing his ride up the ranks.
Begin with broken glass and long knives, night and fog,
But no more color-coded index cards and file drawers.
No crackling telephone receivers gone
Suddenly dead. I can now admit, the joy
Provided sober perspective of that day.
Afterwards, confirming success to its accessories,
As we stood to a portrait of our fearless one,
Goddamn me, but I almost blessed myself!
A decrepit force of habit I hadn’t quite
Abolished – like fear of Jew blood trapped
In veins. The corners of my eyes confirmed:
No fear, then, for none saw the slender hand
Rising in the air, spidery fingers folded
Like a tulip to the temple, the leaning forward
In utter beatitude, slowly descending to meet
The hand that upward reaches… – Interrupted,
Jerked away from leprosy’s white hot flame.
Who saw? None because the index cards saw first.
None. Not among those men of beautiful will –
Those thirteen officers and captains of their time,
Numbering more than a jury, less than an army.
A scrape of chairs across marble, hands clapped
Backs slapped, chevron-crosses polished up
By quick breath beneath an elbow, a sleeve, a cuff.
Timepieces cross-checked with wall clocks.
An hour and a half. In that time, roads were paved
For war with bone meal, brick and seashell;
A satisfactory framework of redress.
The human machinery fine-tuned with gas
And clever transcendence – history
As hysteria. Mystery as miasma. Hatred
As achievement. Time pieces rechecked.
Spectacles, credentials and genitals adjusted.
Before next orders of business consume us,
There’s still time for sluts and sips from a glass.
And we would decant and sip our cognac.
The servants would wink as they lit our cigarettes.
The sluts would take and swallow our orders.
The world’s problems would find solution
Like squalling babes drawn to flowing teats.
In the name of the Fuhrer, and the Reich
And the Holy Fatherland. Amen. Amen.
Amen.

Clyde said...

Jeez. Heart, lung, liver, you'd almost think it was human or something.

Katrina said...

"There is a long-standing tradition in Western civilization that has defined a person as a reasoning, cognizant, self-conscious being."

I suppose my son and his wife were entitled to put their 3 month old daughter out in the snow to die back in January when she was ruining their sleep with her incessant, colicky crying because she certainly was not a reasoning, cognizant, self -conscious being. The Romans would have thought so. So do you, I guess. But Western Civilization moved a bit beyond the point where babies were thought of as non-persons, thanks in large part to Christianity, you know, that "hateful" religion which is so distasteful to some here. It wrecked everyone's fun! But don't worry, society has regressed back to your primitive and amoral state.

"Evangelical Christians and Republican presidential candidates disagree with that long-standing definition, but surely we can disagree as dignified, civilized adults without the childish name-calling."

No. This is evil and if you can't see that it is evil and if you think only reasoning people are humans whose lives are worthy of protection, you are a moral degenerate. I'm sorry if that hurts your precious feelings.

Katrina said...

"Evangelical Christians and Republican presidential candidates disagree with that long-standing definition, but surely we can disagree as dignified, civilized adults without the childish name-calling."

A man who thinks it's fine to kill a baby (a one week old is not much more reasonable or cognizant or self-conscious than a 8 month inside the womb is) is not a "civilized adult." He is a reminder of just how thin the crust of civilization is and how deep the depths of barbarism are right under the surface. But oh, how these educated barbarians can lie and rationalize and equivocate with pretty words to hide what they are - even to themselves. Mengele was quite a charmer, with elegant manners and refined tastes. He, too, made good use of medical waste from the non-people he harvested organs from.

jr565 said...

"It's profoundly unintelligent to label a large percentage of Americans as monsters, body snatchers, vampires, Nazi medical experimenters, baby killers, Hannibal Lecters and so forth. Americans who see no moral wrong in aborting a pregnancy simply don't regard a fetus as a person. There is a long-standing tradition in Western civilization that has defined a person as a reasoning, cognizant, self-conscious being. Evangelical Christians and Republican presidential candidates disagree with that long-standing definition, but surely we can disagree as dignified, civilized adults without the childish name-calling."

RIght, because pro choicers view pro lifers in exactly those terms. those pro lifers are deniers of freedom, facists, haters of women, misognynicsts, Nazis. Etc etc etc.
Why then is it ok to label pro lifers in THOSE terms? Your double standard is pretty amazing.
And, if you view a baby as a baby and not as a clump of cells, its not quite so simple as there being a disagreement about whether someone is defined as a person or not. If we were talking about slavery and a slave owner said "but blacks are not fully human." and you thought they were, wouldn't you have a conflict. Would you have a live and let live attitude about it considering it would mean slavery would continue?

Sammy Finkelman said...

Correction:

I wrote:

The whole thing was a sting operaton, though, because there's nobody actually doing this, and probably nobody who would want to.

It was a sting operation, but there are really people buying it. It's all on the grounds of medical research.

I would guess that 90% of that is probably useless, wrong-headed or duplicative, and only done because aborted fetuses are so readily available. It's not stem-cell research, by the way, which I knew had fallen out of favor.

They study or find things to study about development of cellsor organs.

Gusty Winds said...

Of course there are now more videos being released. Gross. And the way this lady from PP is do detached from the baby/fetus/specimen is just creepy. Especially over dinner and drinks.

If these video's are written off by PP as part of the 'war on women', then who are the women at war with?