Althouse: "No, I agree, I think the flag is inescapably a symbol of human bondage and slavery..."

June 23, 2015

"No, I agree, I think the flag is inescapably a symbol of human bondage and slavery..."

"... and particularly when people use it obviously for murder and to justify hatred so vicious that you would kill somebody I think that that symbolism needs to end, and I think South Carolina is doing the right thing.... There have been people who have used it for southern pride and heritage and all of that but really to I think to every African-American in the country it’s a symbolism of slavery to them and now it’s a symbol of murder for this young man and so I think it’s time to put it in a museum."

Said Rand Paul.

151 comments:

J. Farmer said...: Something must be done in response to this horrible tragedy! Hey, this is something. Let's do it! Lather. Rinse. Repeat.; 6/23/15, 3:49 PM
tim maguire said...: Some people are getting carried away with contrarianism. The Confederate flag is not worth preserving outside of museums and reenactments.; 6/23/15, 3:51 PM
Monkeyboy said...: If it is kept in a museum, I hope it's never put on display. Citizens may see it accidentally and start murdering people.; 6/23/15, 3:51 PM
hombre said...: Thanks, Rand. That flag is so-o-o guilty.

Say. Ever hear of the Corwin Amendment, alive and awaiting ratification? What flag do we associate with that?; 6/23/15, 3:52 PM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: Funny.

I just googled "Northern Pride" and got nothing pertinent.

The internet must be broken.; 6/23/15, 3:54 PM
Known Unknown said...: The quote excerpts the part where he says that it would be up to South Carolinans to decide about the flag. He offered his opinion, like most of us have.; 6/23/15, 3:56 PM
damikesc said...: Some people are getting carried away with contrarianism. The Confederate flag is not worth preserving outside of museums and reenactments.

It's the usual slippery slope that ALWAYS happens when the Left finds their new target. The first request is rational...then comes the deluge of asinine nonsense.

"Gay marriage? Why that's not a bad idea. I can see why we should do it"...then, suddenly, bakers and photographers have their rights suppressed to not hurt the feelings of the mob.

"Hey, I think the Mozilla CEO donating to an anti-gay marriage referendum is a bad idea" devolves into him being ousted by a mob.

I have never supported the Confederate flag --- but I'll support any Bubba flying that over the mob now deciding that it is the new most evil thing in human history. The Bubbas are, by and large, harmless.

The game is played the same every time.

STOP PLAYING THEIR GAME.

Don't give them a damned thing.; 6/23/15, 3:58 PM
Dan Hossley said...: It is offensive in his mind, but maybe not in others. The great libertarian sees a mob, jumps in front and pretends he's leading a parade.; 6/23/15, 3:58 PM
cold pizza said...: Remember, this flag (the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia) was adopted by the KKK (formed by Democrats) and adopted by segregationist Democrats (Dixiecrats) in the South when those states were forced to integrate. It is a symbol of defiance and racism with the understanding that "all white men are created equal and superior to the Negro."

That fact that later generations of Southerners grew up accepting the "rebel" portion and discounted the "racist" beginnings doesn't negate the implicit racism woven into it's fabric.

This flag was created and nourished by the Democrat party. They own it as thoroughly as (triggeralert: Godwin ref) the German National Socialist Party owned the swastika. Own it, I say, own it, bitches! --CP; 6/23/15, 4:02 PM
damikesc said...: This flag was created and nourished by the Democrat party. They own it as thoroughly as (triggeralert: Godwin ref) the German National Socialist Party owned the swastika.

Didn't you know that EVERY SINGLE SEGREGATIONIST joined the GOP in the 60's.

Well, all if you are counting Helms and Thurmond.

Not if you're counting Gore, Fulbright, Irvin, Byrd, Hollings...; 6/23/15, 4:04 PM
79 said...: I wonder how much it is going to cost us Georgia taxpayers to sand-blast Davis, Lee, and Jackson off the side of Stone Mountain?

From Wikipedia...
"The largest bas relief sculpture in the world, the Confederate Memorial Carving depicts three Confederate leaders of the Civil War, President Jefferson Davis and Generals Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson (and their favorite horses, "Blackjack", "Traveller", and "Little Sorrel", respectively). The entire carved surface measures 3 acres (12,000 m2), about the size of two and a quarter football fields. The carving of the three men towers 400 feet (120 m) above the ground, measures 90 by 190 feet (58 m), and is recessed 42 feet (13 m) into the mountain. The deepest point of the carving is at Lee's elbow, which is 12 feet (3.7 m) to the mountain's surface."; 6/23/15, 4:04 PM
Monkeyboy said...: @Damisek

Time to update Niemoller.

First they came for the gay marriage opponents and I didn't say anything because I supported gay marriage.
Then they came for the confederate flag wavers and I didn't say anything because I don't one.

What's sad is the speed of this thing. It was only yesterday when the line was "fly it if you want but not on government land" Now we have people wanting places like Ft Bragg/Benning/Lee renamed.; 6/23/15, 4:08 PM
Known Unknown said...: "The largest bas relief sculpture in the world, the Confederate Memorial Carving depicts three Confederate leaders of the Civil War, President Jefferson Davis and Generals Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson (and their favorite horses, "Blackjack", "Traveller", and "Little Sorrel", respectively). The entire carved surface measures 3 acres (12,000 m2), about the size of two and a quarter football fields. The carving of the three men towers 400 feet (120 m) above the ground, measures 90 by 190 feet (58 m), and is recessed 42 feet (13 m) into the mountain. The deepest point of the carving is at Lee's elbow, which is 12 feet (3.7 m) to the mountain's surface."

I'd keep Lee and Jackson, and turn Jefferson Davis into George Jefferson riding his favorite honky, Bentley.; 6/23/15, 4:09 PM
Monkeyboy said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/23/15, 4:10 PM
Monkeyboy said...: "I wonder how much it is going to cost us Georgia taxpayers to sand-blast Davis, Lee, and Jackson off the side of Stone Mountain?"

The Taliban used dynamite. I say stick with what works.; 6/23/15, 4:11 PM
Henry said...: Good for him.; 6/23/15, 4:20 PM
Wince said...: What's up with the "No, I agree" locution?

Happens a lot.

Why do people insert that "No" before the "I agree"?; 6/23/15, 4:20 PM
J2 said...: Good man. And he earns another donation from me.; 6/23/15, 4:21 PM
rhhardin said...: The route to power, according to sociologist Joseph Gusfield is
1. Discover a new "public problem"
2. Take ownership of it

The way you get it through is a media blitz along with blandishments that "the discussion has already ended."

As if a discussion went on and you missed it.

So you wind up with a strongly divided population on another issue. This does not make things better.; 6/23/15, 4:23 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "Thanks, Rand. That flag is so-o-o guilty"

Exactly. White folks feigning outrage about something that costs them nothing and benefits Black folks not at all.

It's cheap, it feels good, and it won't make you blind or crazy. No wonder garage is excited.; 6/23/15, 4:26 PM
79 said...: Hi MB,

"The Taliban used dynamite. I say stick with what works."

Well, sure, we'd love to use the Taliban, they are great...I mean their work in Peshawar is very professional, but the State of GA owns Stone Mountain.... and it is illegal for the government to contract with a religious organization....now if the Taliban has a Gay/Lesbian demolitions division, then we're good to go....; 6/23/15, 4:26 PM
bleh said...: Rand's outreach to the black community continues. It would be monumentally stupid for him to say anything else.; 6/23/15, 4:29 PM
exhelodrvr1 said...: Pizza,
"That fact that later generations of Southerners grew up accepting the "rebel" portion and discounted the "racist" beginnings doesn't negate the implicit racism woven into it's fabric"

So the current meaning isn't the one that matters - we can go back into history and pick whichever meaning is most offensive/convenient?; 6/23/15, 4:30 PM
exhelodrvr1 said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/23/15, 4:30 PM
garage mahal said...: No wonder garage is excited.

Anything that makes you unhappy excites me and should be good overall for the country.; 6/23/15, 4:33 PM
holdfast said...: How about a deal? South Carolina remmoves the flag when Obama fires the incompetent head of OPM and puts Lois Lerner in jail?; 6/23/15, 4:34 PM
Saint Croix said...: Are we going to rename Washington D.C.? Or Madison, Wisconsin?

I think Washington, Jefferson, and Madison are heroes. They are our best and our brightest. And yet they participated in atrocities.

How is it that good people can do such a thing?

Abortion is quite similar. How do we kill our own children? How do we participate in such an evil thing? And we simply do not see it. We deny the humanity of the victims. There are no victims.

Rand Paul wants to whitewash slavery. It's in the past. We're not like that anymore! Except for defining unborn children as property, and decapitating them in secret.

Instead of censoring our past, we might try learning from it.; 6/23/15, 4:35 PM
Unknown said...: It's obvious why this question is being asked of Republicans. Only Republicans. I don't understand why every answer, and Rand's answer is perfectly reasonable, doesn't include a redirect toward Democrats - recently in office Democrats, including the Democrat governor of SC who was elected partly on a promise to protect the state flag. Persistent pestering about the various Confederate flags incorporated into state flags should provoke and answer to do with the Arkansas state flag and the presumed Democratic nominee's history regarding that flag. The journoDems know all this. The Republicans know all this. How is it that any Republican asked to disavow the past sins of Democrats doesn't point the finger where it belongs with every utterance on the subject?; 6/23/15, 4:43 PM
Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...: I'm glad this is settled. Now we can get back to the business of giving nukes to Iran.; 6/23/15, 4:45 PM
Rusty said...: Rand Paul lost my vote.; 6/23/15, 4:48 PM
Anonymous said...: cold pizza: Remember, this flag (the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia) was adopted by the KKK (formed by Democrats) and adopted by segregationist Democrats (Dixiecrats) in the South when those states were forced to integrate. It is a symbol of defiance and racism with the understanding that "all white men are created equal and superior to the Negro."

That fact that later generations of Southerners grew up accepting the "rebel" portion and discounted the "racist" beginnings doesn't negate the implicit racism woven into it's fabric.

You know, if you just keeping repeating that this is what the flag indelibly represents to you, you will surely persuade people who don't look it at that way. If the 999,999th comment on the internet stating a variant of your view hasn't done the trick, surely the 1,000,000th will.

Oh, and droning on and on about how "it was the Democrats who were the party of Jim Crow!" etc.? That's totally going to persuade liberals that they're all wrong about Republicans being racists. Because surely they'd all vote RINO if only they knew the truth about Senator Byrd.; 6/23/15, 4:50 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: and particularly when people use it obviously for murder and to justify hatred so vicious that you would kill somebody
So not a heckler's veto, then, but a murderous asshole-adoption veto. Yeah, collective guilt, get on board the train, next stop self righteoustown.; 6/23/15, 4:50 PM
Anonymous said...: It's true, African American's hate the flag so much, they're willing to flock to states like South Carolina from states like New York.

Makes perfect sense to me.; 6/23/15, 4:53 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: I think what the Left is missing is the concept of reconciliation. After the Civil War, after the Civil Rights movement, after the gay marriage wars are fought, there has to be some face-saving accommodation to the losing side so that we can continue functioning as one country, and not splinter into separate ethnic/cultural factions.

I think that's what missing.

I'm a Northerner, so I don't have a strong nostalgic or cultural connection to the Confederate Flag. During the Civil War, the South was on the wrong side of history. No doubt about that. But does that mean we should stamp out their cultural symbols and connections? I'm not so sure.

How many honorable Southern men died fighting for American values on the right side in later wars, i.e., World War II?

I'm uneasy about demonizing cultural symbols, decades after the fact. The South is every bit a part of out country, flaws in all, as is the North, with all its flaws too.

While, I obviously think the institution of slavery was evil, I don't buy comparing the Confederate flag to the Nazi Swastika. Different eras, different historical contexts.

Perhaps, allowing the vanquished in the Southern states to keep some connection to their heritage, to their symbols, to their history, was a fair compromise that benefitted our country as a whole and fell within the spirit of reconciliation. I'm curious how Southern Black Americans view this issue. Their voice should be heard on the issue, not the Al Sharpton-type rabble-rousers or left-wing opportunists.; 6/23/15, 4:54 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Anglelyne said...That's totally going to persuade liberals that they're all wrong about Republicans being racists.

Serious question Anglelyne: what will persuade liberals that Republicans aren't racist? I don't mind SC taking the flag down, it's their statehouse and their flag. I don't fly that flag myself and I understand why lots of people view it as a bad symbol. I do mind, though, the self-satisfactory sneering, the condescending lib-splaining, and the naked assertion that people on the lib side are morally superior to the backwards southern white neanderthals. Slavery isn't America's sin, see, and racism isn't America's problem, it's the South's.
Hey white southern Repub, prove you're not racist! Sure--how?; 6/23/15, 4:56 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "Anything that makes you unhappy excites me and should be good overall for the country."

I couldn't care less about the Cross of Treason. My concern is the fascism that the Left takes such pleasure in.; 6/23/15, 4:57 PM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: Whatever is not mandatory, is prohibited.

The Leftist wet dream.; 6/23/15, 4:58 PM
garage mahal said...: My concern is the fascism that the Left takes such pleasure in.

Rand Paul? Romney? Wal Mart? eBay? Amazon? Sears?; 6/23/15, 5:00 PM
Rick said...: tim maguire said...
Some people are getting carried away with contrarianism.

No. We support our cultural predisposition against using tragedies for crass political purposes.

Today it's the confederate flag. But if Sabrina Erdely were slightly less stupid a few months ago she would have been integral to eliminating due process rights from campus rape investigations.; 6/23/15, 5:01 PM
The Godfather said...: I'm a Yankee, although I now live in Dixie, so discount my opinion as you think appropriate. When I was growing up in New England in the 1950's, the general view of the Confederates was that their soldiers were gallant and noble in a lost cause (that deserved to be lost). The "Confederate flag" (if it wasn't the official Confederate flag the news never reached us) was a symbol of that lost cause gallantry and also of rebellion in general -- and we thought rebellion was cool. So the rebel without a cause, but with a motorcycle, flew the rebel flag.

But in the 1960's, the defenders of segregation co-opted that flag and made it into a symbol of "segregation forever". Gov. Hollings of SC was one of them and flew the Confederate flag over the State Capitol as a symbol of resistance to integration. They lost.

Since then, for many people, the Confederate flag has returned more or less to its old symbolism of gallantry (although not so for many Black Americans). The South, by and large, has made a successful transition to a multi-racial society -- perhaps more so than much of the North. The last time I heard "the N-word", that is, the actual word, was from the President of the United States the other day. He's from Chicago I understand.

But a few -- very, very few -- bigots are still crawling out from under their rocks from time to time to wave the Confederate flag -- or the Swastika or some Islamist flag -- and do harm to good people in the name of their evil ideology. So sensible people, like the Governor of SC, come to the conclusion that the time has come to remove from that symbol any possible sanction of approval by the government. It's a shame, but bad people have embraced that symbol for bad purposes.

If you want to fly the Confederate flag over your house, you ought to be free to do so. But you might want to post a sign (with large letters) explaining what that symbol does and does not mean to you.; 6/23/15, 5:02 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Bay Area Guy said...How many honorable Southern men died fighting for American values on the right side in later wars, i.e., World War II?

Doesn't matter, Bay Area Guy. Ancestors of mine fought under a Confederate flag, and their children fought under the US flag in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq. Doesn't matter, they were all racists--they were white southerners so they must have been. That's one reason it's so much fun when the Left calls us Nazis--both my grandfathers fought the Nazis, but I'm one now, because I disagree with the Left.

It's fun reading today all the commenters saying "there was a war, one side lost, get over it." Perfectly correct, of course, but isn't that what Israel says about its borders? Or Texas, for that matter? I guess the rule is something like "when people or causes we like win wars the results and consequences are final and morally just, but when people we don't like win wars the results aren't final and justice demands a return to pre-war borders, control, etc."; 6/23/15, 5:06 PM
William said...: Can you display the Confederate flag in a hip, post modern ironic way? Would it be ok for Km to have a Confederate diaper bag?.......What about the Fleur de Lys French flag? Is it too redolent of Bourbon excesses to wave around at cheese eating contests?.......Symbols mean what people think they mean. The Confederate flag was originally meant to show support for slavery and secession. That's an inescapable part of its meaning. Both causes were wrong and stupid. You don't honor your ancestors by venerating their stupid mistakes.; 6/23/15, 5:07 PM
Roughcoat said...: First they came for my light bulbs. Then they told me I couldn't smoke cigars in the park. What's next--are they going to take away my gluten pancakes?; 6/23/15, 5:14 PM
Gabriel said...: "belongs in a museum"

What is the difference between a museum and a monument?; 6/23/15, 5:30 PM
Anonymous said...: HoodlumDoodlum: Serious question Anglelyne: what will persuade liberals that Republicans aren't racist?

Beats the hell out of me, HD, but then again, I'm not a Republican, so I don't much care what happens to a party of venal, craven pussies who stand for nothing and cave on everything. Always on the defensive, always letting their opponents set the terms of the debate - a proglodyte says "dance!" and they start hopping around like organ grinder monkeys. Doesn't exactly inspire respect. Not the sort of people who are ever going to stand up to the prog mobs, so screw 'em.; 6/23/15, 5:37 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: "Hillary refuses to deny that she used a Confederate flag in her campaign in 08."

I thought if those campaign buttons were photoshopped, they had reached a new level of sophistication.; 6/23/15, 5:39 PM
Roughcoat said...: Rand Paul is right.; 6/23/15, 5:40 PM
n.n said...: The social complex and Party have discovered another scapegoat to obfuscate their culpability. The Confederate flag was unlikely to be the trigger for Roof's psychotic break. It is far more likely that his cognitive dissonance was caused by institutional denigration of individual dignity and debasement of human life under the color of [class] diversity and [sacrificial] rites. Perhaps a puff of marijuana and a liberal dose of secular opiates would have suppressed the progressive convergence.

That said, at least they found a non-human scapegoat, for now. Well, other than legally, politically, financially, and socially flogging people to within an inch of their life and dignity. The babies, unfortunately, will still be aborted in observance of sacrificial rites.; 6/23/15, 5:44 PM
Michael K said...: "The great libertarian sees a mob, jumps in front and pretends he's leading a parade."

Exactly. If he had attended that service in AME Church Sunday and thereafter kept his mouth shut, I would be impressed.; 6/23/15, 5:49 PM
Anonymous said...: So Althouse, I see your firm, Amazon, and you can't separate yourself from their policies if individual McDonald's are linked to the mothership, sold Confederate Flags, and still sells USSR flags and memorabilia from Lenin, Stalin and Che, all stone cold sociopath killers.

Why not give up your 7% share until they take all racist genocidal killers off their shelves?

the difference is?; 6/23/15, 5:58 PM
Wilbur said...: From a fairly early age, I just assumed that anyone with a Stars and Bars decal or flag or whatever on his vehicle was telling the world "I hate niggers". I would wince when thinking of my black friends.

If you got a couple of beers in them, you'd find out this was usually true.

Didn't mean I wouldn't drink with them, but I knew where they were coming from: a very dark place.

Then I learned there were people in the South who said "No, no - this is all about our love and respect for our ancestors". It was difficult for me to believe these people, that they could be so blind to the message that flag sent.

Still is.; 6/23/15, 5:59 PM
lemondog said...: Scott Walker to give donation money from supremacist to charity
***
Holt donated tens of thousands of dollars to Republicans across the country, who scrambled Monday to decide how to dispose of the funds. Among those receiving money from him were U.S. Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.) and the leadership committee run by U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan of Janesville.
***
Other GOP candidates also are shedding themselves of money from Holt, including, U.S. Sens. Rand Paul of Kentucky and Ted Cruz of Texas, according to The New York Times. Holt in recent years also gave $1,250 to Johnson and $1,000 to Prosperity Action, a political action committee controlled by Ryan. Both are giving the funds to charity to help the victims.; 6/23/15, 6:00 PM
madAsHell said...: This is a lot like gun control laws. It's symbolic, and doesn't really solve a problem. People will feel good for a couple of minutes, and then the same stuff happens again.; 6/23/15, 6:03 PM
n.n said...: madAsHell:

It's exactly like gun control for law-abiding members of society. It will create visions of good perceptions, while obfuscating causes, and stifle discussion of issues on their merits. The focus on the flag is intended to deflect observation from causes. The Democrats and not a few Republicans are playing an amoral, opportunistic game.; 6/23/15, 6:09 PM
sinz52 said...: One of the things that touched my heart was those black parishioners inviting white folks into that church to come together and mourn and also celebrate life together. There was no bitterness visible.

White Southerners should heed that example. From now on, when they want to celebrate and honor Southern heritage, they should cordially invite their black neighbors to celebrate and honor it with them.

And to do that, they have to find a less racially charged symbol of Southern heritage than the Confederate battle flag.; 6/23/15, 6:11 PM
Meade said...: "Why not give up your 7% share until they take all racist genocidal killers off their shelves?"

Until you are sure she has given up her 7% share, you will stop reading and commenting on her blog, right?; 6/23/15, 6:13 PM
sinz52 said...: The Republican party used to be proud of being the party of Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt (two of the four men on Mount Rushmore).

Now, we've got base Republicans who denounce Lincoln as a tyrant and refer to the Civil War as "The War of Northern Aggression." (And Theodore Roosevelt, of course, they regard as a socialist.)

50 years ago, after the Dem Party embraced the black civil rights cause, many Southern Democrats walked out and formed a third party, the Dixiecrats.

I suggest that all the neo-confederates today who call it "The War of Northern Aggression" should likewise walk out of the GOP and form their own third party, the Dixiegopers.

They won't be missed.; 6/23/15, 6:15 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Anglelyne said...Beats the hell out of me, HD, but then again, I'm not a Republican, so I don't much care what happens to a party of venal, craven pussies who stand for nothing and cave on everything.

Ok, sure, but do you think that's healthy for the country as a whole, though? If 35% of the nation is convinced that a different 35% of the nation is irredeemably racist, do you think that's a recipe for happy, successful country? Look how happy the commenters in threads today have been for an excuse to call people they disagree with racists. The Media and academic Left continually bemoans political polarization (while blaming the Right for it, naturally), but given half a chance is content to label huge portions of the other side as vicious backwards racists. We're oh so divided and it's hurting the country, and by the way, everyone who disagrees with me is a racist. That's the attitude! Collective guilt is wrong and harmful unless it's used against political opponents of the Left. Muslims don't have to answer for the Tsarnevs and ISISes of the world, but white southerners have to answer for this murderous asshole. Jane Fonda's a-OK but Shelby Foote has to go.
Oops, I hope I'm not whining, I hope I'm not upset, or it'd be time to laugh in my scrunched up face. It's just tiring.; 6/23/15, 6:16 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: So Hillary used the Confederate flag in 2008 against her black opponent. She use symbols of white supremacism and treason in her campaign, in addition to attacking the victims of her husband's sexual depredations as "nuts and sluts."

This Hillary is some piece of work. Those two facts alone would disqualify any Republican from ever appearing in public again in his life.; 6/23/15, 6:17 PM
Meade said...: @n.n and madAsHell,

Are you also in favor of South Carolina replacing the battle flag to the top of their capitol dome? If not, why not?; 6/23/15, 6:18 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: The fact that Hillary won't confirm or deny that she used the pin shows that she displays the kind of moral leadership that America desperately needs in these perilous times.; 6/23/15, 6:20 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: I wonder if Bernie Sanders ever used a confederate flag in a campaign against a black opponent?; 6/23/15, 6:24 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: sinz...White Southerners should heed that example. From now on, when they want to celebrate and honor Southern heritage, they should cordially invite their black neighbors to celebrate and honor it with them.

Hey, thanks for the tip, bro. We do. We all live down here. Battle of Atlanta 150th Anniversary That was two years ago--the battle markers are all along Memorial Hwy, near where I live. Lots of people from the neighborhood came out--the neighborhood is predominantly black. Somehow we pulled that off, all celebrating and observing together, without fighting or anger towards each other, without hearing your suggestion. Juneteenth was last weekend. There were some events around here, and once again everyone seemed to get along nicely. White people and black people, here, were out together. Did you celebrate Juneteenth? Have you been to any celebrations of "southern heritage?" Ever been to Stone Mountain park? Ever been anywhere around here? Or was your advice for others just based on what you know to be true, without any, you know, evidence?; 6/23/15, 6:26 PM
Francisco D said...: Rand Paul has morphed from being a pseudo-libertarian into a crass political opportunist.

If burning the American flag is free speech, then displaying the Confederate (or Nazi) flag is free speech. The answer for unpopular free speech is ... wait for it ...

MORE free speech.; 6/23/15, 6:27 PM
NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...: Meade said...

Are you also in favor of South Carolina replacing the battle flag to the top of their capitol dome? If not, why not?

You mean the one they took down in 2000?

"South Carolina Heritage Act of 2000

Section 1-10-10. This chapter may be cited as the 'South Carolina Heritage Act of 2000'.

Section 1-10-20. (A) To honor and recognize the history and heritage of this State and the many contributions of its diverse citizenry, it is necessary and appropriate to codify the placement of certain symbols on the Capitol Complex and within the State House which salute the contributions and sacrifices of our constitutional history. On July 1, 2000, or thirty days after the effective date of this section, whichever occurs last, the only flags that shall fly atop the dome of the State House are the United States Flag and the South Carolina State Flag."

http://www.scstatehouse.gov/sess113_1999-2000/bills/4895.htm; 6/23/15, 6:32 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Wow. Some white Southerners are actually learning that black Americans have feelings, too! Bravo! Good for them!

And they even have feelings that even go beyond just pride! Who'd have thunk it!

You sub-Mason-Dixon white Americans… you impress me every single day. So sensitive. And I thought it would take another 150 years for you to understand that blacks are people too. What progress! Time to celebrate! We'll have a party. With chitlins. And grits. And all the fixins'. Bring the party favors! And the bourbon and mint juleps!

And the rebel flag! Yeeeeeeeeee---- Haaaaawwwww!!!!! Awright now!; 6/23/15, 6:40 PM
Skeptical Voter said...: Lot of moral preening going on here. Wilber, with no disrespect to you, you remind me of my freshman high school classmates in the fall of 1957. We lived in a San Diego suburb. There was a black ghetto in central San Diego. Most of the houses in the suburban area around my high school had deeds with restrictive covenants which prohibited sale of the houses to "Negroes, Jews and Asians" or some variant thereof.

President Eisenhower, with the help of the 82nd Airborne Division, was forcibly integrating Central High School in Little Rock that year. My classmates were horrified about the terrible racist attitudes of folks in Arkansas and school segregation. The black ghetto in San Diego was just 10 miles west of us. Little Rock was 1800 miles east. Thoughts about motes, beams and eyes went through my head as I listened to my classmates. I knew about the ghetto, "Logan Heights" because my father had bought an old apartment building there that needed repairs, so my younger brother and I could learn some plumbing and carpentry skills on our own.

Well time rolls on. My high school campus was brand new that year and essentially "lily white". I think we had one Hispanic in the school. These days my old high school is about 50% black and 40% Hispanic.; 6/23/15, 6:41 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Francisco D said...If burning the American flag is free speech, then displaying the Confederate (or Nazi) flag is free speech. The answer for unpopular free speech is ... wait for it ...MORE free speech

For an individual, sure, but the state of SC decides what flag to fly at the state house--the state itself decides what speech the state gov. engages in. It's appropriate for the elected officials of that gov. to make those choices. If they choose to fly or not fly the flag that's their business (and the business of the people who elected them, the voters and citizens of the state). I don't particularly like the reason the governor is giving (a murderous asshole used the flag so that taints the flag more than it already was, and its valid to conclude anyone flying the flag has similar beliefs to the murder's) but it's an appropriate use of state discretion.; 6/23/15, 6:42 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: So R&B, how do you feel about the fact that Hillary won't even acknowledge or deny the fact that she used the Confederate flag in 08 in her race against a black man?; 6/23/15, 6:42 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: You know, if you just keeping repeating that this is what the flag indelibly represents to you, you will surely persuade people who don't look it at that way. If the 999,999th comment on the internet stating a variant of your view hasn't done the trick, surely the 1,000,000th will.

Hey. Well some people like to wear white sheets, too - innocently enough. It's all in how you intend it. Fuck the recipients of the message!

I'm making Anglelyne's young relatives (I'm guessing she doesn't have kids) a white sheet costume for Halloween… so they can be ghosts! It will be grand! Nevermind the pointy white hat, now! Did you see something you weren't supposed to see? Naughty onlooker!; 6/23/15, 6:44 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Nope. No stereotypes here.

Jesus Christ. Take a joke there, lead carpetbagger. Note the irony at the end. We were told that Southern pride is a good thing. I guess Hank Williams Jr.'s song about "The South Woulda Won" has to go now on account of all those "stereotypes" he listed. Those stereotypes weren't used to enslave or maim or kill, by golly - but hey. The only feelings that mean anything are one's own and one's own political soul-mates, I guess. Yep, that's progress.

When the day comes that a KKK flag is considered less offensive than a comment about regional foods, then you know some reactionary's brains are f^&%ed.; 6/23/15, 6:48 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: Aw maaan! Now we can't listen to Free Bird anymore.; 6/23/15, 6:49 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: When I was growing up in New England in the 1950's, the general view of the Confederates was that their soldiers were gallant and noble in a lost cause (that deserved to be lost).

And slavery had NOTHING to do with it! The states' rights they were fighting for were the rights for the states to make hot dogs! It was all very innocent and sweet - that neat little "way of life" they needed to protect, and extend, and apply to escaped slaves after the Dred Scott decision!

That's right! It was all about their right to make HOT DOGS! Leave them alone. And leave Brittany alone, too.; 6/23/15, 6:56 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: R&B said...Those stereotypes weren't used to enslave or maim or kill, by golly

No, right, of course, it's obvious you're morally superior, R&B, your distant ancestors weren't from the south so you are better than people whose distant ancestors were. I mean, sure lots of people in the north owned slaves, lots of people in the north benefited from the slave trade, lots of industries in the north grew because of capital available (in banks holding southern funds) because of the slave trade, but you are pure and they are dirty. We get it, no need to go on! White Americans participated in slavery and white Americans ended slavery. Slavery is part of American history, but you alone deserve collective praise (for things, of course, you never did) while they obviously deserve collective guilt. You don't even pretend to make it an issue of more recent history (the 1950s-60s, say), it's all about slavery itself. I sure wish I could be pure like you, but shucks I'm southern; enjoy your view up there.; 6/23/15, 6:57 PM
Fernandinande said...: Eric the Fruit Bat said...
I just googled "Northern Pride" and got nothing pertinent.

"Northern Pride" -> 220 (actual) results.
"Southern Pride" -> 298
"Western Pride" -> 268
"Eastern Pride" -> 384
"Central Pride" -> 294
"Lion Pride" -> 349; 6/23/15, 6:58 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Beats the hell out of me, HD, but then again, I'm not a Republican, so I don't much care what happens to a party of venal, craven pussies…

Stop beating the hell out of Anglelyne's venal, craven pussies.; 6/23/15, 7:00 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: Et tu, Allman Bros?; 6/23/15, 7:00 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: No, right, of course, it's obvious you're morally superior, R&B, your distant ancestors weren't from the south so you are better than people whose distant ancestors were. I mean, sure lots of people in the north owned slaves, lots of people in the north benefited from the slave trade, lots of industries in the north grew because of capital available (in banks holding southern funds) because of the slave trade, but you are pure and they are dirty. We get it, no need to go on! White Americans participated in slavery and white Americans ended slavery. Slavery is part of American history, but you alone deserve collective praise (for things, of course, you never did) while they obviously deserve collective guilt. You don't even pretend to make it an issue of more recent history (the 1950s-60s, say), it's all about slavery itself. I sure wish I could be pure like you, but shucks I'm southern; enjoy your view up there.

Blah blah blah. You know what lots of Northerners aren't doing? They're NOT waving flags to commemorate that stupid cause, either.

I guess that makes them… how would you put it… morally "equivalent"? Yes. Not commemorating an atrocious legacy makes you morally equivalent to those who feel they need to do so. And you're all no better than Nazis, either. Heck, mebbe even become one (a Nazi) because that's the best way to walk in someone else's shoes. And then become just a generic murderer, or a street looter, because what a shame it would be to consider one's law abiding ways to be superior to something like that. Become one of them first. Sure, a lot of property would get stolen and lives taken, but that's no worse than making an obvious and necessary judgment.; 6/23/15, 7:04 PM
Big Mike said...: Now fair is fair. Dylann Roof also posted a picture of himself burning an American flag. Consequently it is obvious that burning an American flag is also associated with hatred and racism, and should be banned from public demonstrations.; 6/23/15, 7:07 PM
Big Mike said...: (Hat tip to Francisco D, who reaches more or less the same point from a different direction.); 6/23/15, 7:08 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Why doesn't anyone bring up the injustice of Germany not using a Nazi flag, anymore? I mean, hey. They have a right to feel pride and many of their ancestors (less distant than Conf. ancestors) died under that flag. So obviously we must honor them and their memory with the symbols they fought and died under, as well.

It's only right.

Why not?

You think all Germans care for is bratwurst and knickers and Oktoberfest and the autobahn? You small-minded, smug, moralizing jerk!!!

Leave Britney alone!!!; 6/23/15, 7:11 PM
Real American said...: "... and particularly when people use it obviously for murder and to justify hatred so vicious that you would kill somebody I think that that symbolism needs to end"

He's talking about the Koran, right?; 6/23/15, 7:14 PM
Anonymous said...: Do the state's rights people not realize that supporting this stupid flag allows anti-state's rights folks to point at them and screen. "racist!" That flag couldn't win the war and it cannot win this argument. It's time for it to go.; 6/23/15, 7:18 PM
Michael K said...: "One of the things that touched my heart was those black parishioners inviting white folks into that church to come together and mourn and also celebrate life together. There was no bitterness visible."

My 25 year old daughter was one of the white people who went to the service and was invited in.

This thread seems to be turning into another trollfest so I will say no more.; 6/23/15, 7:21 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: R&B said...I guess that makes them… how would you put it… morally "equivalent"? Yes. Not commemorating an atrocious legacy makes you morally equivalent to those who feel they need to do so.

You probably meant "superior" and not equivalent, R&B, but you were in too much of a hurry to call me a Nazi. Hey, some of my recent ancestors fought the Nazis, and when they died the government gave me American flags in their honor. But yeah, I'm a Nazi now, and my more distant ancestors' actions count against me while my more recent ancestor's actions don't count for me. They don't count at all, or they count for you, somehow!

The legacy of slavery is America's legacy. You exempt yourself from that potion of America's legacy because it suits your vision of yourself as morally superior.; 6/23/15, 7:26 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Hey, some of my recent ancestors fought the Nazis, and when they died the government gave me a American flags in their honor.

Stop smugly pretending that you're morally superior to Nazis. Leave Britney alone!

But yeah, I'm a Nazi now, and my more distant ancestors' actions count against me while my more recent ancestor's actions don't count for me.

If you want to use their flag to commemorate them. But then, maybe Nazis were better than Confederates. At least they gave some of their victims quick deaths, rather than dragging a life of servitude out of ALL of them. And picking unwinnable battles earlier in the game also sped up their demise. The South, OTOH, was about preserving that "way of life".

The legacy of slavery is America's legacy. You exempt yourself from that potion of America's legacy because it suits your vision of yourself as morally superior.

Hey. I ain't the one waving that flag, Slick. Some people think individual actions and attitudes count for something. But I guess those would just be the "smug" ones. The one's who believe in, you know, personal responsibility.

And again - you never answer the fucking question. If using the same flag for "commemoration" purposes is so benign, why do Germans today have no problem having nothing to do with the Nazi flag? Are they doing something "wrong" that you believe you're doing "right?" Go ahead and explain your tortured reasoning.

Or just admitt that Germans are more decent than C.S. flag-waving degenerates like you.

And again, LEAVE BRITNEY (and the South) ALONE!; 6/23/15, 7:31 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Hoodlum Doodlum has some wonderful moral lessons to teach Germany today. Like, the importance of flag commemoration to show pride in one's ancestors. Why doesn't Germany understand the importance of this wonderful, moral lesson? What is wrong with them?

I think Germany ought to organize a diplomatic mission to Jackson, MS and Richmond - much like Borat did when he came to America - so that they can learn all the wonderful social and cultural and moral lessons that the Confederate legacy-defenders can teach them. It's all about honoring the past. Only a smug jerk thinks certain historical legacies are less worthy of honor than others!

Think of those Nazi leaders' kids, too! Hey, they have a right to venerate their parents' causes! It's only right! It's a part of their "heritage!"

And the Muslims, I bet you wouldn't THINK to tell them to stop worshipping the heritage of Muhammad and all his wonderful victories! Nevermind that questionable episode of him with the young Aisha - IT'S PART OF THEIR HERITAGE! All equally defensible, all equally worthy of veneration.

That's why ISIS uses the awesome black flag of Muhammad's armies. What are they supposed to do? FORGET about their HERITAGE??!!!?!?!!!

What kind of a monster are you, suggesting such a thing! Only a smug moralizing tyrant would do something like that!!!; 6/23/15, 7:45 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: R&B said....That's why ISIS uses the awesome black flag of Muhammad's armies. What are they supposed to do? FORGET about their HERITAGE??!!!?!?!!!

No no no R&B, out of bounds, buzzer please! ISIS doesn't taint all Muslims! Modern Muslims aren't morally responsible for Muslim violence in the past (including, of course, widespread slavery). Muslims aren't collectively guilty for what a small group of murderous Muslims do. Southerners, of course, are guilty, are collectively responsible, and should apologize both for the past and for the small group of murderous assholes who use historical southern symbols. It makes perfect sense.; 6/23/15, 7:55 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Blogger HoodlumDoodlum said...
R&B: I don't wave that flag, but I'm a Nazi, worse than a Nazi, and a degenerate. You're exempt from the stain of slavery but I'm not--I get it.

Some people think individual actions and attitudes count for something.
Which individual actions have I committed that count against me, R&B? Which attitude? You sure seemed to agree with the point I made to Angleyne that to people like you there is nothing white southerners on the political right can do that would make people like you believe we aren't racists. I understand your position, you just haven't earned the moral plaudits you've awarded yourself--you've done nothing and cost yourself nothing, but you're (morally) better than me. (Of course, I'm worse than the Nazis, so that's not saying much.); 6/23/15, 7:56 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Other than the idea that your Confederates' descendants are better than Nazis' descendants, but that people who simply agree with the Union cause are not, I have no idea what you're saying, Hoodlum Doodlum.

But you do manage to use an alias that would seem to indicate that such confusion is likely when conversing with you.

Try learning the power of logic. It's more respectable than the power of legacy. The Confederate cause simply has no use in a country that accommodated to the rationally, morally superior Union cause. Making this about your god-damned great-great-great-grandpappies is a god-damned distraction, and you know it. No one cares what anyone's ancestors were doing. It's about which cause was right, which cause symbolizes what America's finally become today, and making no excuses for understanding that as the defensible cause.

But I get it. You're Southern Scotch-Irish. All you care about is that a fight took place, and your kin participated, and they need their cause commemorated. Focusing on which cause deserves greater commemoration doesn't matter to you, because seeing beyond some narrow and irrelevant personal angle is all you care about. FUCK the rest of the country, the course it took, and all those freed because some others chose to fight it! The only thing that matters is YOUR 150-year gone war dead. Of course, you didn't know a god-damned single one of them personally, and yet, their memory is more important to you than that we continue in the better tradition that supplanted theirs.

FUCK THAT! You are blind. A blind hermit, grousing over certain gravesides and telling all those on the other side that their cause was less important than a nominal personal connection that you can't even place in any moral or historically meaningful terms whatsoever.; 6/23/15, 8:01 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: I say this a lot about trolls, and I usually mean it, but this time I really mean it. I wish I could buy R&B TV time to spout his hatred in support of the Democrat Party.; 6/23/15, 8:03 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: It's actually Republicans who are finally coming to terms with this and fighting their own fight about it, you idiot Tim. Democrats haven't had anything to do with it since the Wallaces and Strom Thurmonds and the rest of them ran and escaped and took cover among the Republicans. Learn all about it from Lee Atwater, your great political strategist.; 6/23/15, 8:07 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: No no no R&B, out of bounds, buzzer please! ISIS doesn't taint all Muslims! Modern Muslims aren't morally responsible for Muslim violence in the past (including, of course, widespread slavery). Muslims aren't collectively guilty for what a small group of murderous Muslims do. Southerners, of course, are guilty, are collectively responsible, and should apologize both for the past and for the small group of murderous assholes who use historical southern symbols. It makes perfect sense.

Hey HD. It all depends on who's doing the flag waving now, doesn't it?

When the ISIS flag is waved that's bad but when the C.S. flag is waved that's just some good old fashioned ancestor worship.

I know. I get it. That's why the KKK used it.; 6/23/15, 8:11 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: R&B said...Other than the idea that your Confederates' descendants are better than Nazis' descendants, but that people who simply agree with the Union cause are not,
Which of course isn't at all what I said....
I have no idea what you're saying, Hoodlum Doodlum.
That I believe.

I'm not saying southerners are better than non-southerners, R&B. You called me a Nazi and worse than a Nazi, but you can't say why. I don't wave a Confederate flag. I don't mind that SC will take theirs down. So you're morally superior why, now?
My point, R&B, is that your sense of moral superiority is unearned. Slavery is America's legacy. Ending slavery is America's legacy. Whites oppressing blacks with horrible violence is part of American history. Whites and blacks living together happily is part of American history--and our present. Mine, anyway.
Are you morally better than southern people I know? Why? They're not Confederates and you're not fighting for the Union. Real people did, American people, but I'm as American as you are--you don't get to claim their honor any more than I do.; 6/23/15, 8:16 PM
Monkeyboy said...: Rhythm.

Perhaps you should take a trip to Charleston one of these days, it will expose you to love of others and to value togetherness.; 6/23/15, 8:16 PM
I Callahan said...: Still beating the dead horse, huh Professor? And "A Reasonable Man" was on a few days ago telling the commenters THEY were obsessed with race. I think he has pronoun problems.; 6/23/15, 8:19 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: I am pretty sure R&B has been sampling his 'warez' again.; 6/23/15, 8:20 PM
n.n said...: How quickly they managed to discover a scapegoat to take the focus of strategies to denigrate individual dignity, debase human life, and poison human relationships. Roof is the product of pro-choice doctrines implemented outside their notably gray ivory towers. That and the mind-altering effects of psychotropic drugs.; 6/23/15, 8:21 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: What I get a kick out of is how Democrats seem to believe that Abraham Lincoln was not a strong believer in the rights of man and the rights of the individual. That he was some kind of Democrat who believed that human freedom was over-rated.; 6/23/15, 8:27 PM
Michael said...: R&B

If you had two ot three days to meander anywhere in the south, how many confederate flags do you think you would see flying from homes or cars or trailers?

It is a serious question. do you think it would be in the hundreds or dozens? Or a handful? Or none?

I have been looking in the last few days. Maybe I am overlooking what is right in front of me but I haven't seen any. I am pretty sure I could spot some if I made a concerted effort and pulled down enough red dirt roads but I would not make a serious bet that I could find a single one.; 6/23/15, 8:29 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I'm not saying southerners are better than non-southerners, R&B. You called me a Nazi and worse than a Nazi, but you can't say why. I don't wave a Confederate flag. I don't mind that SC will take theirs down. So you're morally superior why, now?

Then what is there to argue about? Other than the rhetorical points, (which are just rhetoric to alert you to the point), I agree.

My point, R&B, is that your sense of moral superiority is unearned.

Oh. So here's where we disagree. Who said anyone was "morally superior" to you? I said a certain cause was much more worthy of defending, even today, than a certain other cause in opposition to it. How you go from that to something personally between me and you is beyond me. This isn't a contest between me and you. I have no problem with you. I just have a problem IF (and maybe you're not doing this) people think commemorating the flag of certain war dead is more important than understanding the difference between what that flag stood for vs. what a different flag stood for.

Slavery is America's legacy. Ending slavery is America's legacy.

The north already did its part in that regard. Twice.

Whites oppressing blacks with horrible violence is part of American history.

I see what you're doing. You're attempting to pretend that the slavery/Jim Crow legacy was not a regional problem, collectivizing that onto all of America, and merging it with other racist problems and practices. But to do that is to deny some huge distinctions, not to mention to piss on the grave of all the Union dead. And the slaves. Precisely what you complained was being done to the Confederate dead.

Whites and blacks living together happily is part of American history--and our present. Mine, anyway.

That shouldn't come with the cost of ignoring history, though. That's my point.

Are you morally better than southern people I know?

That seems to be what you think I believe. But you really don't get me, do you? When I get into arguing a point, I go with it! I'm like the Southerners and their cause, that way! Seriously, man, if you can best me in argument, best of luck to you. Sorry if you think I took things more personally than I intended. If you had a better argument though or point to teach me, I'd have gladly conceded it. As Robert E. Lee conceded, I guess.

Why? They're not Confederates and you're not fighting for the Union. Real people did, American people, but I'm as American as you are--you don't get to claim their honor any more than I do.

That's fine. I have no argument with that.

Glad we can agree on some things. Probably on more things than you realized. Sometimes battles are like that.; 6/23/15, 8:29 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: What I get a kick out of is how Democrats seem to believe that Abraham Lincoln was not a strong believer in the rights of man and the rights of the individual.

Yup. That's exactly what I "SEEM" to believe, whatever that means.

Anything else that I "SEEM" to believe, doggy dog? I mean, when appearances are everything, and myopia rules divine, there's no telling how things might seem to you. You're a genuine Mr. Magoo of perceptions, if not honest and thoughtful and resourceful appraisals.; 6/23/15, 8:31 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: Well, people keep telling me that he was not a conservative. Conservatives believe in individual rights. Slavery is anathema to that belief. Democrats are more into collective rights and think that Republicans make a fetish of individual freedom.

But keep blustering away about things you don't understand, mr R&B.; 6/23/15, 8:35 PM
Meade said...: "Glad we can agree on some things. Probably on more things than you realized. Sometimes battles are like that. "

with malice toward none, with charity for all; 6/23/15, 8:38 PM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: Originally conservatives were known as liberals. Based on their professed love of freedom. Somehow collectivists who do not believe in freedom co-opted the word. It doesn't change reality.; 6/23/15, 8:41 PM
trumpetdaddy said...: This flag business is the perfect kind of "issue" for Social Justice Warriors; it enables white liberals to preen about how they are morally superior to other white people (their favorite activity), and doesn't require them to do anything to substantively and practically improve any actual black person's life anywhere. Hell, they don't even have to actually interact with any real, live black people. They can get all this self-satisfaction merely by posting on social media accounts. Win-win!; 6/23/15, 8:46 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Conservatives believe in individual rights. Slavery is anathema to that belief.

Wage slavery, OTOH, is awesome!

Democrats are more into collective rights and think that Republicans make a fetish of individual freedom.

They make a fetish out of economic freedom.

I bet you never even read 10% of Lincoln's own writings.

When you do, let me know how many times he mentions "conservatism" (or something like it), as opposed to how many times he mentions words like "liberal" or "liberality", especially when speaking of it in a positive light.

You don't understand political history, plain and simple. Lincoln's Republicans were a direct result of the Whigs, who believed in progress over everything.

And then there was the 2nd most famous Republican, T.R. Perhaps the only national politician to purposely cast himself as a "progressive".

The Republican party only started claiming the mantle of "conservatism" after 1980 with Reagan, after the Southern Strategy and years of goading by guys like Buckley.

You can rewrite your own personal history of the meaning of conservatism in America as easily as a 6th grader can write about his summer vacation. But what's obvious is that you only know how to flimsily extend upon partisan narrative as it's worked since 1980, and nothing else.; 6/23/15, 8:47 PM
rcocean said...: I never knew so many people felt so strongly about what flag flew at SC's state capital. They've kept in under wraps all these years, and yet they are now so angry and outraged.

And whatever happened to the "Redskins"? Are people still upset about that or will the outrage be kept in cold storage till a Redskin fan kills someone?; 6/23/15, 8:49 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: with malice toward none, with charity for all..

Amen.; 6/23/15, 8:50 PM
jimbino said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/23/15, 8:55 PM
Meade said...: And whatever happened to the "Redskins"? Are people still upset about that or will the outrage be kept in cold storage till a Redskin fan kills someone?

"Redskins" still offends. Thanks for asking.; 6/23/15, 8:55 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Lest anyone forget, war is a collectivist enterprise, and a collectivist sacrifice. Never more so than when conscription is compulsory.; 6/23/15, 8:56 PM
jimbino said...: The Germans under Hitler, the Japanese under Hirohito, and especially the Russians under Stalin--all waged destructive war under their adored flags.

Just as the victors write the history books, the victors decide which are the good flags.

There isn't a flag that doesn't bring out the worst in people.; 6/23/15, 8:57 PM
Skyler said...: Black people vote almost exclusively based on race. They are thus racists. Why would anyone kow tow to racist voters? You'll never convince them. Ignore them and talk about freedom and dismantling administrative agencies and reduce the size of government.

Oh wait. No politician cares about those things.; 6/23/15, 9:06 PM
n.n said...: Skyler:

Black people's votes may coincide with racial purity, but it must be noted that they are under intense social pressure to conform in order to receive social subsidies. The so-called reforms are intended to subsidize rather than reconcile outstanding issues, including affordable [and available] health care.

The goal should not be to treat symptoms, nor to find a convenient scapegoat (e.g. guns, flags), but to address the submerged causes that have progressive consequences for everyone. They, and many other people, were lead to believe that converged migration to high-density population centers would improve their outlook, but instead they have been caught in a state of misaligned development. The Democrats favor these centers for their concentrated capital and leverage, where the consequences can be nominally mitigated or suppressed through redistributive schemes, especially through reduced liability national schemes.; 6/23/15, 9:24 PM
Laslo Spatula said...: The Nazis weren't about anal sex unless it was about anal sex.

The Soviets weren't about anal sex unless it was about anal sex.

The Sodomites weren't about anal sex unless it was about anal sex.

History without flags.

I am Laslo.; 6/23/15, 9:25 PM
JimB said...: I proudly fly the Texas flag...and the flag of my country, under which I served a a reservist in the navy. Now, Texas was a slave state and fought on the side of rebellion. When will they come for my Lone Star flag?
Seems to me, an old geezer, that we have become less willing to live and let live over the years. And the racial strife is worse now than I can ever remember. Remember, we are all God's children.

Maybe Texas should be its own country again, as it was before being annexed by the US.; 6/23/15, 9:50 PM
Clayton Hennesey said...: I expect there'll be some pushback over all this anti-Confederate flag hysteria.

That and vendors who will still sell them stand to make some nice new margins.; 6/23/15, 10:40 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Some people seem to be under the impression that displaying these flags is common in the South. It's not.; 6/23/15, 11:08 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Flying that flag in the South is like getting a large tattoo on one's face.; 6/23/15, 11:10 PM
Fen said...: Dear Social Justice Warriors,

You do not get to dictate what our symbols mean to us.

Please see a therapist or life coach for your self-esteem needs.

Getting really tired of your shit.; 6/23/15, 11:43 PM
n.n said...: Freeman Hunt:

Certainly a larger footprint than the professional purveyors of prejudice, who pass for "decent" people in our "liberal" society. Their subversion of normal human relationships is an insidious blight on an otherwise rational and tolerant society, and seem to with premeditation delay reconciliation of social issues, moral axioms, etc.; 6/24/15, 12:11 AM
gadfly said...: As soon as you first convince me that the Civil War was fought over slavery and not over the import tariffs that were killing Southern exporter businesses - then we will talk about the social implications of a battle flag. The import taxes were the only source of revenue for our Federal government back then and the North wanted nothing to do with adding another form of tax revenue.; 6/24/15, 12:22 AM
averagejoe said...: I know that, like me, most of the readers here skip over Rhythm and Balls projectile-vomit posts, but do note that, in typical dishonest and shit-ignorant style, he asserted that George Wallace was a republican. George Wallace, lifelong democrat and multi-time democrat party presidential candidate, was never a republican. I really don't give a hot damn about the Confederate flag- what bothers me is how ignorant bigoted anti-American democrat party members, typified by vile fool Rhythm and Balls, get to preen and demand and dictate what is good and what is unfit for civil society. The democrat party is led by a mean-spirited arrogant, ignorant racist bigot who hates his country and causes it all manner of grief and strife, and he is the absolute archetype of his fellow democrat, yet the rest of us Americans who love our country and our fellow citizens and want to see them succeed are supposed to listen to their opinions on what is right and good? No thanks- I'd rather fly 300 million rebel flags than bend to the whims of the hateful, unprincipled, ignorant and anti-American bigots of the democrat party.; 6/24/15, 12:40 AM
Sebastian said...: @rhhardin: "So you wind up with a strongly divided population on another issue. This does not make things better."

Standard Prog M.O. Not making things better makes things better for them.

"what will persuade liberals that Republicans aren't racist?"

They're not into persuasion. They'll use what they need. As long as GOP = racist works, they'll use it, otherwise, not. A few not-clueless, not-craven GOP-ers with a sense of history might move that along.; 6/24/15, 12:59 AM
eddie willers said...: I know that, like me, most of the readers here skip over Rhythm and Balls projectile-vomit posts.

R&B has replaced The Crack Emcee as my 'bail out of a thread because its become worthless' guy.; 6/24/15, 1:00 AM
Fen said...: They're not into persuasion. They'll use what they need.

What's missing from this debate is not that leftists are caterwauling over guns or flag, its WHY.

They have been playing fire with racial identity politics since Obama announced 8 years ago. And again with the racial lies re Trayvon Martin, Micheal Brown, Eric Gardner, Freddie Gray, etc ad naus.

So after 8 years of constant divisive identity politics and race-baiting, they finally caught something. A weakminded nutjob who was radicalized by their race games. Their caterwauling over guns and flags is meant as a distraction so no one notices the blood on their hands.; 6/24/15, 3:40 AM
Just Asking Questions Tech Bro said...: as opposed to how many times he mentions words like "liberal" or "liberality", especially when speaking of it in a positive light.

It's almost as if R&B were completely ignorant of history. Conservatives used to be known as "liberals." Google "classical liberalism." Just because you call selling one's time "wage slavery" doesn't make it so.

From the Wikipedia:
Classical liberalism is a political ideology, a branch of liberalism which advocates civil liberties and political freedom with representative democracy under the rule of law and emphasizes economic freedom. Classical liberalism developed in the 19th century in Europe and the United States.

Sounds like modern Republicanism to me. Obama? Not so much into the rue of law for example.; 6/24/15, 5:57 AM
Meade said...: Freeman Hunt said...

"Some people seem to be under the impression that displaying these flags is common in the South. It's not. "

Nor was it common when I lived and worked in Carolina in the 70's. People expressed pride in their work, their families, and their churches. I don't remember hearing anyone expressing pride in the Confederacy or the so called Lost Cause. I saw more rebel flags displayed in the South of Indiana and Ohio than I ever did traveling from Raleigh to Little Rock.; 6/24/15, 6:06 AM
Moneyrunner said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/24/15, 6:26 AM
Moneyrunner said...: Fen has an excellent point.
"So after 8 years of constant divisive identity politics and race-baiting, they finally caught something. A weakminded nutjob who was radicalized by their race games. Their caterwauling over guns and flags is meant as a distraction so no one notices the blood on their hands."
The killer's "manifesto" and his mass murder was an obvious reaction to the exacerbation of racial strife under the Obama administration. It seems nobody has the guts to say it, instead blaming the Civil War, racist white southerners, Republicans, and any other reason their closed minds can conjure. The guy was 21 years old. For all of his formative years he's been ruled by a president who identifies as black, read newspapers and watched TV run by Liberal Democrats. He is a product of the Left's race games, games that are the exact opposite of reconciliation, the opposite of color blindness. The fruit of "it's our turn now" policies and attitudes.

You reap what you sow and there has been a lot of going on.; 6/24/15, 6:27 AM
Michael said...: I would give ten dollars for every confederate flag a northerner could spot if she would give me one dollar for every Obama or peace sign sticker she saw. Anywhere in the south over a period of her choosing.; 6/24/15, 7:52 AM
gerry said...: The Confederacy's Lost Cause was horrendous, which implicitly included slavery - but at least the Confederacy didn't kill 100 million people as Communism did, in all Communisms's gruesome, ugly, hateful forms.; 6/24/15, 8:29 AM
jr565 said...: If Hillary is the nominee, republicans should bring up her husbands stance on the confederate flag when he was governor, and ask her if she thinks he was a racist for allowing it to fly.; 6/24/15, 8:29 AM
Anonymous said...: Meade: Nor was it common when I lived and worked in Carolina in the 70's. People expressed pride in their work, their families, and their churches. I don't remember hearing anyone expressing pride in the Confederacy or the so called Lost Cause. I saw more rebel flags displayed in the South of Indiana and Ohio than I ever did traveling from Raleigh to Little Rock.

I knew a lot of Carolinians in the '70s , old and young, who took great pride in their Confederate ancestry and heritage (and they still do) - they just didn't express it by waving flags. Rather, it was evident in their vast collection of Civil War histories and biographies, lovingly preserved and displayed military artifacts and other Civil War memorabilia, and portraits of Confederate soldier ancestors (or Robert E. Lee) given pride of place.

I saw more rebel flags displayed in the South of Indiana and Ohio than I ever did traveling from Raleigh to Little Rock.

That's my experience, too. I've certainly ran into some good ol' boy crackers in the South, but the first time I ever met anybody resembling Hollywood's idea of a "redneck" was traveling through that area.; 6/24/15, 9:15 AM
sdharms said...: Does Rand Paul think the ISIS flag is a symbol of human slavery, bondage and cruelty?

all this hoopla is symbolism over substance. That flag had NOTHING to do with the death of 9 people, and had NO IMPACT on the the thinking of the crazy guy who killed them. The flag is a PIECE of cloth.; 6/24/15, 9:20 AM
furious_a said...: So is the next plank in the Confederate Purification Crusade the removal of Southern states' monuments from National Battlefields like Gettysburg and Shiloh?

Surely these triggers as hurtful to the descendants of the Union fallen as they are to those of the freed Slaves.; 6/24/15, 10:02 AM
n.n said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/24/15, 10:46 AM
n.n said...: Anglelyne:

great pride in their Confederate ancestry and heritage (and they still do) - they just didn't express it by waving flags

Exactly. My grandfather served in the Soviet army to counter the German socialist threat. My father served in the Soviet army to counter the Chinese communist threat. Both are proud of their service to their family, community, and Russian people; but they do not cheer the dysfunctional State and governments that coincided with their service.

It's analogous to serving for the defense of Americans, while rejecting the corrupt government and State-established pro-choice Church. The concepts, actions, and intent are separable. It's a mistake to simplistically and opportunistically conflate them.; 6/24/15, 10:56 AM
n.n said...: gerry:

Left-wing ideology and "religious" doctrines still kill over 1 million wholly innocent human lives annually in America alone. This, and other over irreconcilable acts, is why the Chinese communists, and other left-wing regimes, laugh at the purported human and civil rights businesses condemnation of their human and civil rights records. For example, selective-child policy, the premeditated act to terminate human evolution for causes of welfare, stability, etc., is objectively a greater violation of human rights than "one-child" policy; but, both are equally a wicked solution, promote debasement of human life, and represent negative progress.

The gender equivalence movement, and the sexual revolution specifically, have caused unprecedented collateral damage to human lives and relationships. All in an effort to deny science and morality, practical and rational reconciliation, and to secure democratic leverage.; 6/24/15, 10:59 AM
Lorenzo said...: Rand Pail, Amazon, Warner Brothers, WalMart, Sears... when the mob roars "jump", we ask "How high?" on the way up; 6/24/15, 11:51 AM
ken in tx said...: In all the brouhaha about the Confederate flag being connected to violent acts of racial hatred, I did not read one mention of the white guy in Ohio, who was chased down and murdered by a group of blacks because he had a Confederate flag on his new truck. His girlfriend said he liked the flag because it was mostly red and matched his truck.; 6/24/15, 12:31 PM
richard mcenroe said...: Perhaps I missed something but did Dylan Roof make any mentions of the Confederate flag?; 6/24/15, 2:07 PM
richard mcenroe said...: Rand Paul needs to keep people talking about something besides his bushwah tax proposal?; 6/24/15, 2:10 PM
richard mcenroe said...: Turns out professional Democrat candidate Letitia van der Putte's husband OWNS the Dixie Flag company. She made a nice little pile off the Stars and Bars.; 6/24/15, 2:30 PM
-blessed holy socks, the non-perishable-zealot said...: It ain't about the FLAG, toots; it's about murder.
God bless you with discernment.; 6/24/15, 4:24 PM
jr565 said...: I saw a lot of confederate flags at Lynrd Skynyrd concerts. And I remember them saying that the South don't need Neil Young anyhow.
Were they bigots? I don't think so. They struck me more as rock and roll outlaws. But whatever.; 6/24/15, 5:29 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: as opposed to how many times he mentions words like "liberal" or "liberality", especially when speaking of it in a positive light.

It's almost as if R&B were completely ignorant of history. Conservatives used to be known as "liberals." Google "classical liberalism." Just because you call selling one's time "wage slavery" doesn't make it so.

From the Wikipedia:
Classical liberalism is a political ideology, a branch of liberalism which advocates civil liberties and political freedom with representative democracy under the rule of law and emphasizes economic freedom. Classical liberalism developed in the 19th century in Europe and the United States.

Sounds like modern Republicanism to me. Obama? Not so much into the rue of law for example.

Modern liberals don't reject classical liberalism. They just accepted the fact that the industrial revolution occurred and expanded the way rights and fairness are considered in the wake of an economic reality that John Locke never knew.

Pretending that the industrial revolution never occurred is the price that conservatives must pay if they are to pretend that modern liberalism is not the direct link from classical liberalism

I have to go but GOOGLE Lincoln's statement on capital and labor if you want a better example. Or I'll just come back and post it later tonight.; 6/24/15, 5:51 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Here's Lincoln, the so-called classical liberal economic conservative, on the sort of economic matters that divide right and left today:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

I'm really not hearing a whole hell of a lot of Reagan, Gingrich, Buckley or Goldwater in any of that.

But I'm sure someone can find a way to twist him into the ideological mess that the Republicans have nowadays become.; 6/24/15, 8:44 PM
Todd Roberson said...: A few threads ago I said that Mr. Balls was like that guy at the office who had some good points but didn't know when to stop talking. His need to win every little talking point tended to drive clients away, which is bad for business.

One major difference, however: that guy at the office was concise. His insulting, ad hominem riposte was often pithy, jocose and clever. Not so with Mr. Balls.; 6/25/15, 3:18 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Oh ok, Todd. Glad you think so.

How's this for concise: Try coming up with an actual thought of your own for once.

If more Althouse commenters had some original and accurate points of their own to make, then there would be much less for me to say.; 6/25/15, 6:07 PM