Althouse: "There should be more reflection about the source of our sense of the 'ratedness' of a movie."

May 10, 2015

"There should be more reflection about the source of our sense of the 'ratedness' of a movie."

"'The Big Lebowski' was mentioned [as overrated] by someone who is probably thinking of the cult status it achieved long after it came out. It wasn't considered very good originally. I remember seeing it in the theater when it came out, in spite of the not-so-good reviews, and seeing good and bad in it. Later, people found the good in a movie that hadn't gotten enough credit when it first came out. It became a cult favorite. If you then come along after all that, you may think you're going to see something wonderful, and when you see the bad that led to the original mixed reviews, you'll say the film is 'overrated.' So: what is your reference point? Where did you come in on the time line?"

That's something I wrote at the end of a long conversation over at Facebook (started by my son John with the question "What do you think is the most overrated movie?").

AND: Here's the picnic scene from "It's a Gift":

"Ah! Crackers! Good old crackers!"

ALSO: A good Mother's Day quote: "Those were my mother's feathers!"/"Never knew your mother had feathers."

87 comments:

Glenn Howes said...: Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion, man.; 5/10/15, 8:08 AM
Guildofcannonballs said...: Watch The Long Goodbye, which The Big Lebowski was modeled after, and I think the idea of The Dude as Philip Marlowe becomes more intriguing and entertaining.; 5/10/15, 8:17 AM
Bob Ellison said...: Nearly every year the Oscars tell you what was the most over-rated movie that year.

I'm more interested in under-rated movies, like Airplane and Logan's Run.; 5/10/15, 8:18 AM
chickelit said...: Offhand, the most overrated film I can think of is "My Dinner With Andre"; 5/10/15, 8:28 AM
Ann Althouse said...: I remember seeing "The Long Goodbye" when it came out. We were big fans of Robert Altman at the time, based mostly on "McCabe & Mrs. Miller." There were maybe 4 of us, and it became obvious in the after-film discussion that only one of us really understood the level of satire in that movie. He finally spoke up and the rest of us felt rather dumb!

From the Wikipedia article on "The Long Goodbye":

"The Long Goodbye was not well received by critics during its limited release in Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia and Miami.[10] Time magazine's Jay Cocks wrote, "Altman's lazy, haphazard putdown is without affection or understanding, a nose-thumb not only at the idea of Philip Marlowe but at the genre that his tough-guy-soft-heart character epitomized. It is a curious spectacle to see Altman mocking a level of achievement to which, at his best, he could only aspire".[15] The New York opening was canceled at the last minute after several advance screenings had already been held for the press. The film was abruptly withdrawn from release with rumors that it would be re-edited.[10] They[who?] analyzed the reviews for six months, concluding that the reason for the film's failure was the misleading advertising campaign in which it had been promoted as a "detective story" and spent $40,000 on a new release campaign, which included a poster by Mad magazine artist Jack Davis.[16][17]... Pauline Kael's lengthy review in the New Yorker ("Movieland–The Bums' Paradise", October 22, 1973) called the film "a high-flying rap on Chandler and the movies", hailed Gould's performance as "his best yet" and praised Altman for achieving "a self-mocking fairy-tale poetry". Despite Kael's effusive endorsement and its influence among younger critics, The Long Goodbye remained unpopular and earned poorly in the rest of the United States."; 5/10/15, 8:28 AM
chickelit said...: Or "MILK" That one was both overrated and over-awarded.; 5/10/15, 8:29 AM
Michael K said...: The trophy was retired some years ago by The Thin Red Line.

I went to that movie with my son and daughter-in-law and it was awful. I finally began to notice that people were leaving. At first I thought they were going out for popcorn or to the bathroom but they didn't come back.

By the middle of the movie, half the seats were empty and I finally suggested that we join them outside. It was just a mess with the characters so confusing that I couldn't figure out who was who.

Imagine my surprise when it was nominated for an Oscar as Best Picture.

Critical response was generally strong and the film was nominated for seven Academy Awards: Best Picture, Best Director, Best Adapted Screenplay, Best Cinematography, Best Film Editing, Best Original Score and Best Sound Mixing. It won the Golden Bear at the 1999 Berlin International Film Festival. Martin Scorsese ranked it as his second favorite film of the 1990s on At the Movies. Gene Siskel called it "the greatest contemporary war film I've seen".

Sickle probably already had his brain tumor. It was awful.; 5/10/15, 8:34 AM
dustbunny said...: the most overrated movies are often Oscar winners: Kramer vs Kramer, Dances with Wolves, Around the World in 80 days, Gandhi, Titanic, A Beautiful Mind.

The Big Lebowski is one of the few movies that improves with multiple viewings. It's about the layers, man.; 5/10/15, 8:37 AM
Bob Ellison said...: In 1978, Annie Hall beat out Star Wars for the "Best Picture" Oscar.; 5/10/15, 8:38 AM
Sebastian said...: Most movie reviews are written by people who like movies, so most movies are overrated.

Upside of recognizing art-form predilection bias: never be disappointed seeing a movie after reading a review. Upside #2: confirm art-form predilection bias by skipping movies that must be worse than the best reviews.; 5/10/15, 8:39 AM
I'm Full of Soup said...: I vote for Pulp Fiction for mot over-rated.; 5/10/15, 8:46 AM
Virgil Hilts said...: Stranger Than Paradise by Jim Jarusch. I love movies of all kind (I loved Long Goodbye), but thought that one sucked. Critics loved it. I saw Sling Blade (now knowing same director) and thought that was OK, but still over-rated.; 5/10/15, 8:49 AM
Wilbur said...: When I used to go to the movies, there were two movies I especially remember walking out of. They were supposed to be funny or entertaining and the first 10 minutes were so dreadfully bad I just couldn't take any more.

"Spaceballs" and "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas".; 5/10/15, 8:51 AM
Darconville said...: What that conversation is missing is the key underpinning that it is perfectly possible that the greatest movie ever could also be the most overrated. Most everyone is just saying "people like this movie, but I don't".; 5/10/15, 8:59 AM
Virgil Hilts said...: I agree with Spaceballs. I would add Anchorman (Will Ferrell). I walked out of that one with my young teenage daughter.; 5/10/15, 9:00 AM
Roughcoat said...: Michael K:

Re "The Thin Red Line," James Bowman agrees with you (so do I). Read his review at

http://www.jamesbowman.net/reviewDetail.asp?pubID=1016

In the course of writing a book about the 2nd Marine Division in the Pacific War, I interviewed many Marines who fought on Guadalcanal and who had seen the Thin Red Line (which was filmed on the island). They all detested the movie. They all said words to the effect, "That wasn't how we were."; 5/10/15, 9:03 AM
Michael K said...: "Sickle probably already had his brain tumor."

Auotcorrect didn't like Siskel.; 5/10/15, 9:04 AM
Roughcoat said...: I saw "The Long Goodbye" in the theater when it came out. I didn't think it was a bad movie but I didn't much like it either. I found it to be relentlessly and, more's to the point, deliberately unpleasant. Like all of Altman's movies, actually. I got the satire. Didn't think it was brilliant or subtle. It was just Altman being Altman. As for Kael's review: just Kael being Kael. Never much like her either.; 5/10/15, 9:08 AM
khematite@aol.com said...: Personal preference, but were I to pick the best scene in "It's a Gift," I'd go with W.C. Fields trying to sleep on the porch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41SFTn9xHus

Insurance Salesman: Do you know a man by the name of LaFong? Carl LaFong? Capital L, small a, Capital F, small o, small n, small g. LaFong. Carl LaFong.

Harold: No, I don't know Carl LaFong - capital L, small a, capital F, small o, small n, small g. And if I did know Carl LaFong, I wouldn't admit it!; 5/10/15, 9:12 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Personal preference, but were I to pick the best scene in "It's a Gift," I'd go with W.C. Fields trying to sleep on the porch."

If you read the thread at Facebook, you'll see that John assumed the scene someone was talking about as the funniest had to be either the Carl LaFong or the Mr. Muckle scene. It was surprising to see the picnic scene mentioned.; 5/10/15, 9:36 AM
Ann Althouse said...: The thing about "The Long Goodbye" is that it worked as a test of whether you were hip enough to see what it was doing. If you didn't like the movie, you failed.

Now, that's an old trick and I don't think it works anymore (or has anything to do with the way the movie business works now). But it used to be that you felt that you should see why you should like this thing even if you weren't too entertained. You were supposed to rise to the occasion. It was a neat trick for a while and it did cause us to stretch and try to see the good in the things that were supposed to be good... at least according to Pauline Kael.; 5/10/15, 9:39 AM
Wilbur said...: Fields was great, but I understand why a lot of people don't like him.

I've yet to meet a woman who likes him.; 5/10/15, 9:46 AM
MathMom said...: I didn't know anything about The Big Lebowski, whether under- or over-rated. I watched it because I'd enjoyed O Brother Where Art Thou, and thought the Coen brothers had made something remarkable. I wanted MORE!

So I watched The Big Lebowski.

Mistake.

I didn't learn from that mistake, however, and went on to watch Barton Fink.

Blech.

I'd say the lads run hot and cold.; 5/10/15, 9:55 AM
Sebastian said...: "Now, that's an old trick and I don't think it works anymore (or has anything to do with the way the movie business works now). But it used to be that you felt that you should see why you should like this thing even if you weren't too entertained. You were supposed to rise to the occasion. It was a neat trick for a while and it did cause us to stretch and try to see the good in the things that were supposed to be good"

I would be interested in more posts about this, if you are so inclined.

I'm surprised you ever felt the pull of this "you felt that you should see" or "you were supposed to." I mean, didn't your contrarian meta-deconstructive inclinations kick in then as much as they do now? Didn't the cool herd feel like a herd even then?

If the "trick" is not working anymore, what caused the change?

In retrospect, does the effort to "try to see the good in the things that were supposed to be good" seem like a waste?; 5/10/15, 9:56 AM
Paco Wové said...: "it worked as a test of whether you were hip enough"

This may be part of why I don't think much of movies as an art form in general.; 5/10/15, 10:12 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Celebrity nudity in movies is always over-rated.

"The Sharon Stone Effect": you keep hearing about how hot and edgy "Basic Instinct" was, and then you see it and say "Really? That was it?"

I have not seen "Fifty Shades of Gray" but I believe "The Sharon Stone Effect" applies in this case, too.

One exception that proves the rule: Chloë Sevigny in "The Brown Bunny".

I am Laslo.; 5/10/15, 10:20 AM
Roughcoat said...: Ann Althouse @9:39 AM:

Yes, precisely.; 5/10/15, 10:22 AM
Roughcoat said...: Re "If the "trick" is not working anymore, what caused the change?"

Growing up.; 5/10/15, 10:24 AM
Roger Sweeny said...: I would have said "Minnie and Moskowitz" is the most overrated, but no one even rates it any more.

There is justice in the world.; 5/10/15, 10:24 AM
Etienne said...: A funny story for Catholics, was the movie Baby Doll. A famous Cardinal from back east, declared this movie the most vulgar movie in America. It was said that more Catholics went to see it, after that declaration. Before, they probably would have cared less.

Same thing though, the movie had a smidgen of lust, but the other scenes were just tragic and hard to watch.

I declared the movie a great movie, but it does leave a bad taste in your mouth. Like On the Water Front, the Black and White photography pulls you into a story that is like walking through a flowing sewer on the way to get a sack of crispy fried chicken.; 5/10/15, 10:35 AM
Tank said...: 9:39 makes me think of "modern art."; 5/10/15, 10:36 AM
Amexpat said...: I was 16/17 when Altman's "The Long Goodbye" came out and it was an immediate favorite. I saw the film again about a year ago and it's still a great film, IMO Altman's best.

I was disappointed after seeing "The Big Lebowski" because I had high expectations due to it being a Coen brothers' film and there was no real ending. I've seen it a number of times on TV, often somewhere in the middle, and it improves with each viewing. It's one of the few movies that I don't mind watching again and again,; 5/10/15, 10:40 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Re "If the "trick" is not working anymore, what caused the change?" Growing up."

It started with Star Wars and Jaws, massively popular, entertaining movies that Baby Boomers felt free to like and not be ashamed of liking... and the tiresomeness of all those foreign movies we'd been seeing medicinally for so long.; 5/10/15, 10:40 AM
Roughcoat said...: and the tiresomeness of all those foreign movies we'd been seeing medicinally for so long.

Heh. Yes. We saw those movies at the student union. Afterward we would go to a bar and discuss the movie over pitchers of beer and the conversation would be dominated by an intense bearded youth wearing wire-rim glasses and cultivating the grim cold demeanor of Strelnikov in "Doctor Zhivago." The gist and the pith of his analysis would always be that the movie brilliantly chronicled the decadence of bourgois life in particular and the decadence of Western civilization in general as well as the overall meaningless of existence.; 5/10/15, 10:55 AM
buwaya said...: Movies I can watch again and again -
Life of Brian
Holy Grail
Lawrence of Arabia
The Wild Bunch
Oh Brother Where Art Thou; 5/10/15, 11:09 AM
William said...: Pauline Kael was definitely the most overrated film critic. She was a fine writer, but she had an unseemly affection for bad movies. I remember she described Last Tango in Paris as the best foreign movie ever made........In order to be properly described as overrated, a movie has to be highly rated at some point in time. The Big Sleep and The Big Liebowski can more properly be described as underrated. The English Patient is the proper paradigm for an overrated movie. Can anyone who has seen it remember what it was about? Is there anyone who has seen it who would want to see it again?......Shakespeare in Love is often cited as an over rated picture. I saw it recently. It was witty and clever and flattering to everyone in show business. What was overrated was not the movie but the estimation in which show business people held themselves.; 5/10/15, 11:12 AM
William said...: A certain amount of gratuitous nudity or well done special effects involving the destruction of a city can make even the dumbest movie watchable.; 5/10/15, 11:15 AM
LYNNDH said...: DUNE; 5/10/15, 11:21 AM
Etienne said...: I hate to say this, as an engineer, rather than an artist, a movie will sometimes fade to noise for me, as how the film was made suddenly captures my attention. Sometimes I laugh, when you're not supposed to laugh, as the set is so crazy. A film that no one liked, and ended a studios life, was One From the Heart.

I was suffering from jet lag, so found myself in London wide awake at 11pm. The Brits and Candians always showed R rated movies after 11pm, so I clicked on the tele, and caught the start of this movie. I was impressed, because the TV quality was better in Europe (had 100 lines more resolution), and the colors were more intense. The movie was a simple plot, but the scenes were done as if on a stage.

I think the difference was, I had no investment in the experience. I didn't have to pay money to see it, and I was just a passive bystander, with no preconceived opinions.

I, like the studio, didn't see why it failed so miserably, and yet Fast Times at Ridgemont High made millions.

I guess I would have to call it an Art Film, because the plot was pablum, but the sets were eye candy.; 5/10/15, 11:30 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: "and yet Fast Times at Ridgemont High made millions."

"Fast Times at Ridgemont High" had Phoebe Cates topless. Prime Phoebe Cates, wonderfully topless.

That is worth millions right there.

It is also Sean Penn's best role. Downhill from there.

I am Laslo.; 5/10/15, 11:34 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" also had Phoebe Cates illustrate fellatio on a carrot.

Art Film.

I am Laslo.; 5/10/15, 11:35 AM
Birches said...: Dances with Wolves

Yes. I would venture a guess that most Oscar winners don't really hold up that well.

No one bad mouth Anchorman. Truly one of the funniest movies ever made. Next thing I know someone here's going to say Zoolander sucked....; 5/10/15, 11:36 AM
Birches said...: (I'll admit I like most of Adam Sandler's movies); 5/10/15, 11:42 AM
Zach said...: The Big Lebowski improves so much on repeated viewings that you have to feel sorry for a reviewer seeing it the first time, in a theater. How are they supposed to realize that the plot is complete BS and that the "Eight year olds, Dude ... eight year olds" line will be incredibly funny the tenth time you see it?; 5/10/15, 11:48 AM
buwaya said...: Phoebe Cates is an outstanding example of what can happen if one breeds Filipinos and Jews. This mix works very well indeed.
Best mix I ever saw, at least as far as producing pretty girls, was Filipino-Spanish-Russian-Mongolian
Very hard to arrange, granted.; 5/10/15, 11:53 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: "So: what is your reference point? Where did you come in on the time line?"

Generally one of the following:

1. The opening credits.

2. The closing credits.

3. The first nude scene.

4. The first use of subtitles.

5. The first use of subtitles during a nude scene.

6. The first time the girlfriend mentions a movie you like.

7. The first time a girlfriend talks about a movie she likes, but you hated.

8. The first time the girlfriend explains that the nudity in the movie was gratuitous.

9. The first time it becomes, in your head, THAT movie that starts all the arguments with the girlfriend.

10. That first movie you watch with the new girlfriend.

Off the top of my head.

I am Laslo.; 5/10/15, 12:15 PM
MacMacConnell said...: The only film that nudity and sex were crucial to the move is "Body Heat".

Well maybe the xxx rated version of "Caligula" too. ;-); 5/10/15, 12:29 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: The hilarity of the picnic scene has most to do with the slow build of the outrageous mess they are making in the guy's yard.

Also, "the sun is wrong." Ha ha ha! The imperious wife is perfect.; 5/10/15, 12:37 PM
Julie C said...: American Beauty. Forrest Gump.
Awful movies

I'm glad there are other fans of The Long Goodbye out there! I love the scene where the cigarette is dangling out of his mouth for what seems like an hour. He inhales, exhales, talks and the cigarette never leaves his lips.

If you like O Brother Where Art Thou you should see Sullivan's Travels. Wonderful film.; 5/10/15, 12:37 PM
rcocean said...: "Its a Gift" is hilarious. I can see it over and over. "The Long Goodbye" bombed in the previews because people thought it was a serious movie. Its only when the PR people put out the word that it was a "satire" that the critics came round and praised it.

It hasn't worn well for me. Gould hipster doofus shtick gets old fast. Hayden is pretty good though.; 5/10/15, 12:41 PM
rcocean said...: Altman is the most overrated director ever. According to his bio, he directed most of his films while half-drunk or high on drugs, which explains a lot.; 5/10/15, 12:43 PM
Rusty said...: "What do you think is the most overrated movie?"

There are so many. But just off the top of my head
"Havana"; 5/10/15, 12:43 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: They are complete slobs and so pretentious. It's perfect.; 5/10/15, 12:48 PM
Rusty said...: Roughcoat said...
Michael K:

Re "The Thin Red Line," James Bowman agrees with you (so do I). Read his review at

http://www.jamesbowman.net/reviewDetail.asp?pubID=1016

In the course of writing a book about the 2nd Marine Division in the Pacific War, I interviewed many Marines who fought on Guadalcanal and who had seen the Thin Red Line (which was filmed on the island). They all detested the movie. They all said words to the effect, "That wasn't how we were."

Considering it was a James Jones novel about the United States Army I would imagine the Marines didn't think much of it.; 5/10/15, 12:51 PM
Laslo Spatula said...: Speaking of Altman and over-rated: "MASH".

The TV Show too, for that matter.

Self-congratulatory with little to be congratulated about.

I am Laslo.; 5/10/15, 1:09 PM
Lewis Wetzel said...: I watched Crime Wave the other night. Sam Raimi directed, written by the Coen bros. Very entertaining.; 5/10/15, 1:19 PM
Michael K said...: American Beauty. Forrest Gump.
Awful movies

I agree on American Beauty which was a leftist circle jerk about hating all the things us Bourgeoise like.

Disagree about Forrest because it was a reaction to movies like AB and the Hollywood left was gobsmacked by its popularity. If it hadn't been preceded by so many bad lefty movies, it probably would not have been such a success.

The Army came to Guadalcanal when the Marines had mostly won the battle. They were there for the later stages. At one point, the new Army troops were used to fill out Marine units in the battle.

Jones' book From Here to Eternity was good. Thin Red Line not as good but the TRL movie was awful. FHTE movie was good in spite of the censor effect on the plot.; 5/10/15, 1:23 PM
fivewheels said...: Some movies become classics that can always be appreciated no matter when you see them. The Searchers, the Godfather, Star Wars, whatever.

The Graduate has aged very, very poorly. It's nigh unwatchable if you're outside the '60s and the entitled awfulness of a Boomer mentality.

Possibly not overrated at the time, but its time has long, long passed.; 5/10/15, 1:29 PM
dustbunny said...: Wilbur, you haven't met me but I'm a woman and I love WC Fields.; 5/10/15, 1:46 PM
Etienne said...: Freeman Hunt said...The hilarity of the picnic scene has most to do with the slow build of the outrageous mess they are making in the guy's yard.

Ha, the daughter didn't get many lines, but maybe that was on purpose.

I was in New Orleans in the early 70's, and I thought we were on the wrong side of town. It turned out after several hours, we never did find the right side.

My only thought after leaving that [expletive deleted] hole, was these people have never heard of a broom or a trash barrel.

After Katrina, I thought maybe they should empty Lake Pontchartrain into New Orleans and build a new city there.; 5/10/15, 1:48 PM
Robert Cook said...: "In 1978, Annie Hall beat out Star Wars for the Best Picture Oscar."

If the choice is between those two, the better film won.

Although I enjoyed the first three STARS WARS movies as they came out, I have come to see their success as a nuclear bomb to interesting mainstream American movie-making. I saw the first STAR WARS a second time a year or two after its original release, and it already seemed stale and dumb.

I haven't bothered to see any of the latter-day STAR WARS movies, and, by all reports, I'm better off for not having wasted those hours of my life.; 5/10/15, 1:56 PM
Gary Rosen said...: Citizen Kane.

I know it is technically brilliant, and it was supposed to be groundbreaking, innovative and so forth when it came out. But there is something about it that just leaves me cold.; 5/10/15, 1:57 PM
Jaq said...: Sorry, but the Big Lebowski is a great movie. I have no idea what would make a movie better. A more morally instructive plot(Read that as doesn't push liberalism hard enough.)? Better characters? More inventive situations? What would make that movie better?

McCabe and Mrs Miller was a great movie, at least I thought so last time I saw it. I wonder if I will still think so when I watch it again. I was not a huge Leonard Cohen fan before that movie, I am now, even forgiving him some of his later crap.; 5/10/15, 2:03 PM
Gary Rosen said...: On the IMDB movie site the #1 rated film is The Shawshank Redemption. I think it is a very good movie but I would not place it among my all-time favorites. So for me, anyway, somewhat "overrated". But not a disappointment that you associate with "most overrated".

Some old favorites have been dropping down that list. Still highly rated but not quite as much so by younger moviegoers. The most fascinating film on the list for me is "Twelve Angry Men" at #7, an incredibly high rating far ahead of so many other old Hollywood classics. Not to mention the fact that many younger reviewers often complain about "those old black-and-white movies".; 5/10/15, 2:07 PM
khematite@aol.com said...: Wilbur said...
Fields was great, but I understand why a lot of people don't like him.
I've yet to meet a woman who likes him.

I almost had my wife persuaded, but then I made the mistake of having her watch "My Little Chickadee."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE_2uqCc_K4

WC Fields: "I'm tending bar one time down in the lower east side in New York. A tough paloma comes in there by the name of Chicago Molly. I cautioned her, 'None of your peccadilloes in here.' There was some hot lunch on the bar, comprising of succotash, Philadelphia Cream Cheese, and asparagus with mayonnaise. She dips her mitt down into this melange. I'm yawning at the time, and she hits me right in the mug with it. I jumps over and I knocks her down."

Squawk: "You knocked her down? I was the one that knocked her down!"

WC: "Oh yes, that's right. He knocked her down...but I was the one who started kicking her. I starts kicking her in the midriff. Did you ever kick a woman in the midriff that had a pair of corsets on?"

Customer: "No, I just can't recall any such incident right now."

WC: "Well, I almost broke my great toe; I never had such a painful experience."

Customer: "Did she ever come back again?"

Squawk: "I'll say she came back. She came back a week later and beat the both of us up."

WC: "Yeah, but she had another woman with her--an elderly woman with gray hair."; 5/10/15, 2:20 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: I love American Beauty. Yes, it is chock full of the most moronic Liberal stereotyping but behind all that garbage it has an exquisite, pitch-perfect feel. Hard to articulate.; 5/10/15, 2:21 PM
Bricap said...: Titanic for most overrated.

I always loved Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Definitely one of my all time favorite comedies. So many quotable lines in it.; 5/10/15, 3:00 PM
Roughcoat said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/10/15, 3:18 PM
Roughcoat said...: Considering it was a James Jones novel about the United States Army I would imagine the Marines didn't think much of it.

They weren't criticizing the book they were criticizing the movie. They didn't like the movie because of its misbegotten portrayal the attitudes of all American fighting men and Americans in general during the war.

The traditional Marine Corps disdain for the Army (and vice-versa) was not in play on Guadalcanal. The Marines held the GIs who fought literally side-by-side with them in the highest esteem and called them "Army-Marines," a very high compliment indeed.

In particular the Marines respected the soldiers of the U.S. Army's 164 Inf. Rgt, a North Dakota National Guard unit (not even regular army) who as green troops went into action on the same day they landed on the island in late October 1942. The North Dakota guardsmen, kids who had never seen action and had only recently left the United States--and most of them, interestingly, with blond hair, manifesting there almost exclusively regional Scandinavian heritage--were hastily marched up to the Lunga Perimeter in the jungled hills just west of Henderson Field where they shared foxholes with the Marines. All through the night the GIs and the Marines fought off a series of savage attacks by battle-hardened Japanese troops. The GI's never wavered, earning the undying respect of the combat-veteran Marines who fought beside them. All the Marines I interviewed for the book praised the GIs they served with on the Canal. It was the attitudes put forth in the movie that pissed them off.; 5/10/15, 3:25 PM
Roughcoat said...: Pace my comments above re the army on Guadalcanal, the "Thin Red Line" movie really falls down in its failure to portray or even allude to the truly heroic and courageous actions of the army troops on Guadalcanal. Instead the GIs are portrayed by turns as psychotic nut jobs, cowards, weirdos, brutes, morons, or (in the case of James Caviezel's character) dreamy Emersonian philsophers. This is "Hollywood history" at its worst and it is obnoxious.; 5/10/15, 3:47 PM
richardsson said...: I've seen It's A Gift more often than any other movie and I don't think any other movie could survive so many viewings. Like Wilbur, I've never known any women besides our hostess who liked W.C. Fields.
There are too many movies that are overrated to even list. I've watched Around the World in 80 Days, once when I was ten in the theater and once at home on DVD when I was 58, and I fell asleep both times. Orson Welles was such a precious, pretentious man. The best thing he ever did was in the Carol Reed movie, The Third Man, with the cat playing around his feet and the window opens and the light shines down on his face as he smirks at the camera. That said it all. His own Touch of Evil was awful but hilariously so. As for an underrated film, I nominate Bob Hope's Bachelor in Paradise. It was allegedly so bad that even Hope said he couldn't watch it. I thought it got off to a good start. I never saw Planet of the Apes but I thought the trailers were hilarious. I mean, all those stupid looking apes riding horses and talking.; 5/10/15, 4:14 PM
Sebastian said...: Many good suggestions so far: Citizen Kane. Titanic. American Beauty. Shawshank Redemption. So many to choose from.

Or as Bob Bob Ellison suggested: all Academy Award winners (minus one or two maybe).

Or: Any movie Pauline Kael liked.

Or: All but 2 or 3 in the IMDB top 20.; 5/10/15, 4:15 PM
Known Unknown said...: I just love movie threads on Althouse.

It's everyone get grumpy time!; 5/10/15, 4:45 PM
averagejoe said...: It's A Gift- great movie! Hilarious, the best W.C. Fields- watch that scene with the blind man in the store- priceless!; 5/10/15, 4:50 PM
Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...: our source of ratedness for a movie

Would I spend time watching it again six months later? And again six months after that?

..a complex, shifting plot, unexpected twists; good, memorable dialog; no computer generated fakery; a captivating theme song helps.

..The Spy who Came in from the Cold
..most Joel and Ethan Coen
....Raising Arizona
....Blood Simple
..Das Boot
..The Third Man

Honorable mention
..some Marx Brothers
..Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
..The Sting; 5/10/15, 6:24 PM
Etienne said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/10/15, 7:05 PM
Etienne said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/10/15, 7:06 PM
Robert Cook said...: I hated American Beauty.; 5/10/15, 7:25 PM
Robert Cook said...: But I loves me some W.C. Fields!; 5/10/15, 7:35 PM
Robert Cook said...: "The gist and the pith of his analysis would always be that the movie brilliantly chronicled the decadence of bourgois life in particular and the decadence of Western civilization in general as well as the overall meaningless of existence.

And...? The problem with this is...?; 5/10/15, 7:37 PM
buwaya said...: Its been trite since @1910; 5/10/15, 8:25 PM
Anonymous said...: The Sun is, in fact, usually wrong.; 5/10/15, 8:37 PM
Paul Ciotti said...: In his 2004 book, "Hollywood Unlisted," (about his years as a phone repairman to the stars), Kim Fahey quotes Mae West on W.C. Fields: "Fields was the rudest, foulest, most obnoxious S.O.B you would ever want to meet. He smelled. He farted whenever or wherever he was. He had the worst breath, the worst language and the worst manners of any man I ever met."; 5/10/15, 10:40 PM
Bill said...: Amélie. So infatuated with its "quirkiness".; 5/10/15, 11:57 PM
Lewis Wetzel said...: I watch Laurel and Hardy when I want a laugh.
They were both old vaudevillians. It was as though they soberly, and with great calculation, determined what would make their audience laugh, they did the bit, and found that it made themselves laugh as well.; 5/11/15, 1:57 AM
Aussie Pundit said...: I saw the Big Lebowski at the cinema when it was first released, with a group of close friends. We all enjoyed it and found it very funny. maybe part of the reason we liked it is that we went to a cafe immediately afterwards and talked about the movie, recounting scenes that had really been enjoyable. Thus, without realising it or even meaning to do so, we came to a social consensus about the quality of the film at that cafe.

In hindsight we might not have all decided it was so great if we had each gone individually to see it, alone on separate days.

But that's my memory of the Big Lebowski. A fantastic movie that I enjoyed with friends on a Saturday afternoon many years ago.; 5/11/15, 5:48 AM
Rusty said...: But I loves me some W.C. Fields!

One of the best Fields scenes. He flies into the ball room of the International House in a gyrocopter while the band plays "reefer man".

"International House" 1933; 5/11/15, 6:12 AM