Althouse: "We do, however, have a problem with the fact that those who are so quick to condemn Dunham say nothing about these men."

April 2, 2015

"We do, however, have a problem with the fact that those who are so quick to condemn Dunham say nothing about these men."

Writes Katie Halper — speaking for herself and her "Morning Jew" co-host Heather Gold — in a piece titled "9 comedy bits Lena Dunham critics need to call anti-semitic," pushing back the criticism of that Lena Dunham humor piece in the New Yorker, "Dog or Jewish Boyfriend? A Quiz." Halper and Gold have the thesis that the criticism of Dunham comes from sexism, not any serious concern about anti-Semitism, and you can think about that. I'm just absolutely distracted by this sequence from Mel Brooks' "History of the World Part 1," which is a hell of a lot more than a "comedy bit":

I was in awe, saying out loud, several times: "Why have I never seen this before?" Why isn't that more famous? You endlessly hear — it's knee-jerk at the mention of the Spanish Inquisition — about Monty Python's "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition." Why isn't that Mel Brooks song-and-dance more deeply engrained in the culture? Is it because he's Jewish?

96 comments:

Alex said...: So the gay-hating Pizza joint has raised $136K so far. They'll need every penny because they'll NEVER be allowed to have their bigoted business operating again. Honestly if this were the UK, these pizza bigots would already be in jail and there would be no "GoFundMe" campaign.

I love the UK.

Tits.; 4/2/15, 11:23 AM
YoungHegelian said...: The problem with Dunham's piece is that it's not funny, and after the not funnyness sinks in you notice the morally dubious sexism & well, maybe, antisemitism (yes, there are antisemitic Jews...) & then worst of all, you notice her incredibly whiny self-righteousness.

Look at the other examples given in the article. There's no whining. Rather, in both the attempts by Brooks, outrageous in their courage, to redeem terrible Jewish suffering to pointing out that they survived as a people to laugh at their tormentors. The other examples are all self-deprecating, a parade of schmucks, putzes, and nebbishes trying to manage a hostile world. Not "my boyfriend likes to ogle hot chicks---waaaaaaahhhh!".; 4/2/15, 11:30 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Anti-semitism allegations aside, try reversing the genders and ask if Dunham's boyfriend would have been able to get a similar list (bitching about his girlfriend's personal faults and comparing her to an naimal) published.; 4/2/15, 11:30 AM
rhhardin said...: I have the DVD and bailed out early because it was too stupid.; 4/2/15, 11:31 AM
Gahrie said...: Honestly if this were the UK, these pizza bigots would already be in jail and there would be no "GoFundMe" campaign.

You are the fascist and bigot. This family did not refuse to serve anyone, or put anyone out of business. They were asked by a reporter if they would cater a gay wedding, responded honestly that they would prefer not to, and now all of a sudden they are the KKK.

I spent much of my youth growing up in the UK, and it has been sad to see it sink into political correctness.; 4/2/15, 11:40 AM
William said...: Torquemada was himself a converso Jew. Over several centuries, the Inquisition killed about five thousand people. As persecutions go, it was small potatoes. One of Napoleon's stated reasons for invading Spain was to overthrow the Inquisition. On a good day, Napoleon could knock off five thousand people before lunch, and the tortures practiced by both sides in the subsequent guerrilla war were far more inventive and fiendish Han anything done in the Inquisition.; 4/2/15, 11:41 AM
Balfegor said...: The bit seems a little ahistorical -- the Spanish Inquisition wasn't primarily a means of pressuring Jews to convert, but a means of enforcing orthodoxy those who had already converted (Muslims too). The violence that resulted in many Jews converting had begun among the laity in the 14th century, and the Spanish Inquisition was not started until the 15th. The final push to conversion came at the end, after the Reconquest, when the Jews were expelled unless they converted. When, of course, Pope Alexander VI welcomed them to resettle in the Papal states.

Catholic clerics involved in the Inquisition had, I think, a pretty fine needle to thread there, in that the official position of the Catholic church at the time (as it had been for centuries) had been that the Jews were not to be forcibly converted, nor were their children to be taken from them and baptized against their parents' will. One can't automatically infer the position of the magisterium in the 15th century from Thomas Aquinas in the 13th, obviously, even though I just did so -- but he was canonized in the 14th century and made a Doctor of the Church (the "Angelic Doctor," as they say) in the 16th, so I would give his pronouncements quite a bit of weight. It's not until the Protestants that forced conversions and frothing Jew-hatred become theological doctrine.; 4/2/15, 11:43 AM
YoungHegelian said...: @Gahrie,

Well, at least Alex is honest that he has no use for the 1st amendment. Something to remember when the worm turns......; 4/2/15, 11:43 AM
Anonymous said...: Gave the clip a fair three minutes. Went from unfunny to unfunny and annoying, just like all the other Mel Brooks stuff I remember being dragged to in high schoool, so I bailed.

Why isn't that more famous? You endlessly hear — it's knee-jerk at the mention of the Spanish Inquisition — about Monty Python's "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition." Why isn't that Mel Brooks song and dance more deeply engrained in the culture?

Because the Python skit was funny, and this isn't.

Is it because he's Jewish?

I must keep up. It's anti-Semitic now to prefer Python humor to Mel Brooks humor?

Anyway, what are you talking about? Brooks had and has a huge fan base. But I personally always found his stuff the comedy equivalent of nails-across-the-blackboard.; 4/2/15, 11:45 AM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: 9 comedy bits Lena Dunham critics need to call anti-semitic

How about everyone just ignore these buffoons. Ignore Lena Dunham, ignore her "critics," ignore these women who criticize the critics.

Play Trivial Pursuit instead. Much more fun.; 4/2/15, 11:50 AM
SteveR said...: Lena Dunham? There is too much put into making her relevant. At some point there has to be value. I guess some people care and I can't imagine why.; 4/2/15, 11:52 AM
Chris said...: I was in awe, saying out loud, several times: "Why have I never seen this before?" Why isn't that more famous?

Please tell us you've seen Blazing Saddles.; 4/2/15, 11:52 AM
YoungHegelian said...: @Balfegor,

The final push to conversion came at the end, after the Reconquest, when the Jews were expelled unless they converted. When, of course, Pope Alexander VI welcomed them to resettle in the Papal states.

Don't cloud the narrative. It's like the massacre of the Jews at Mainz by the "Crusaders". The "Crusaders" were not an "official" army but a group of mountebanks who decided to get a head-start without planning or provisions, so they stole & extorted to provide along the way.

At Mainz, they tried to shake down the Jews (not an uncommon Medieval & Renaissance governing technique), but the Jews resisted. The Crusaders then turned murderous and attacked the Jews where they had taken refuge, at the residence of the Archbishop of Mainz, who had to flee before they murdered him, too.

Well, news of this band of rotters moved ahead of them, as did their murder of the Jews & the violation of holy sanctuary of the Archbishop. The Hungarians were ready for them. The Hungarians killed all but a handful, and it was good riddance all around.; 4/2/15, 11:53 AM
Lewis Wetzel said...: How many of the Jewish converts to Christianity were sincere?
The Jewish Encyclopedia of 1906 seems to regard converted Jews as still being Jews -- though often very bad Jews. There is a story that Torqemada visited King Ferdinand in Madrid on the Jewish sabbath day. Torqemada told Ferdinand that his city was full of Jews. Ferdinand denied it -- his Jews were good converts -- so Torqemada took the king out to a balcony overlooking the city. It was a cold January day, and Torqemada pointed out the thousands of chimneys which were not smoking, and told Ferdinand that each cold chimney was attached to the home of a Marrano, or false convert.; 4/2/15, 11:53 AM
MadisonMan said...: Monty Python was first?; 4/2/15, 11:54 AM
ron winkleheimer said...: You have to be kidding me. You have never seen History Of The World, Part 1? Next thing you will reveal is that you have never heard about "Spring Time for Hitler."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmYIo7bcUw

Also, anyone who thinks that that comedy bit is anti-semitic is an idiot. Just. An. Idiot. No explanation necessary.; 4/2/15, 11:57 AM
Scott M said...: I just don't think pedophiles are funny. Does that make me sexist?; 4/2/15, 11:59 AM
President-Mom-Jeans said...: Just because you were not aware of it, it certainly does not mean that it is not deeply ingrained in the culture.

Many people could quote this entire song from memory, it is comedy gold.; 4/2/15, 12:01 PM
MadisonMan said...: I've also never seen History of the World Part I. But I've seen just about every other Mel Brooks film, including High Anxiety and that huge clunker Silent Movie.

HOTW-I came out when I was in College. Maybe that's why I missed it.; 4/2/15, 12:01 PM
traditionalguy said...: To put the Catholic's Inquisitions into perspective, it helps to realize the NAZI SS got about four years to do what they did torturing Jews and stealing their stuff after murdering them

The Japanese Sun God about twelve years of torturing Chinese and Koreans and stealing their stuff after murdering them.

The Catholic Pope got three hundred and twenty seven years of torturing Jews and Christians and stealing their stuff. Thank God that evil finally was defeated.; 4/2/15, 12:06 PM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: There was a quiz somewhere that listed a bunch of humorous, observational quotes. The object was to guess who said it.

Was it Andy Rooney or was it Jerry Seinfeld?

I think I got most of them wrong.; 4/2/15, 12:09 PM
Darleen said...: I was in awe, saying out loud, several times: "Why have I never seen this before?" Why isn't that more famous?

Oh, please do go watch "The Producers" with Gene Wilder & Zero Mostel

Springtime for Hitler; 4/2/15, 12:09 PM
ron winkleheimer said...: OK, read the article, and it lists "Springtime" as anti-semitic, of course. And I acknowledge that the argument is that if these comedy bits aren't anti-semitic then Dunham's article shouldn't be considered anti-semitic. I would point out that those two Mel Brooks comedy bits are making fun of the Jews persecutors, not Jews, so they really don't support the thesis, but whatever.

However, I am still astounded that the Professor wasn't aware of "The Inquisition, The Inquisition, its better to lose your skull cap than your skull."

In my experience there is a large overlap between the sets "Monty Python Fans" and "Mel Brooks Fans."; 4/2/15, 12:12 PM
Sigivald said...: I dunno, I know a fair number of people who can do chapter-and-verse Brooks, at least some films.

(History of the World was too scattered, compared to Blazing Saddles or Young Frankenstein, to really have the same impact.)

Also, I think Python got more traction by being shown on PBS every weekend in hour-long chunks, for a long time.

Shorter than a movie, easier to schedule, and people get in the habit of watching...; 4/2/15, 12:12 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: Why have I never seen this before?" Why isn't that more famous?... Why isn't that Mel Brooks song-and-dance more deeply engrained in the culture? Is it because he's Jewish?

I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition...; 4/2/15, 12:13 PM
ron winkleheimer said...: "that huge clunker Silent Movie."

Have never been able to watch beyond 10 minutes.; 4/2/15, 12:14 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Oh, please do go watch "The Producers" with Gene Wilder & Zero Mostel."

Well, of course, I'm very familiar with that. That is famous. So is "Young Frankenstein." There's the famous Brooks stuff and the nonfamous Brooks stuff.; 4/2/15, 12:16 PM
Unknown said...: ....lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ.; 4/2/15, 12:18 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @tradguy,

The Catholic Pope got three hundred and twenty seven years of torturing Jews and Christians and stealing their stuff. Thank God that evil finally was defeated.

If you ever get a chance to go back on yer meds & actually, you know, read some history, you might want to look into Martin Luther & his views on the Jews.

The Reformation may have been many things, but a philo-semitic lovefest wasn't one of them.; 4/2/15, 12:18 PM
sparrow said...: Springtime for Hitler antisemitic? Some people are humorless.

Brooks, like most comics, has always been uneven. Of course you appreciate him more if you know some yiddish.; 4/2/15, 12:19 PM
Brando said...: If the "insult" is part of an attempt a humor, it deserves a wide degree of lattitude--attempts at humor often cross the line and often fall flat anyway. Sure, Dunham's piece wasn't funny, but it was an attempt. This isn't the worst thing to happen to Jews. It probably wasn't the worst thing to happen to Jews this week.

Now, Dunham's portrayal of a Jewish woman as whiny, entitled and terrible at sex? That's far more troublesome! How about some portrayals of Jews as cool dudes and chicks?

Italians seem to have the opposite problem--always portrayed as jerks or idiots. Maybe the two groups could change stereotypes for a year or so.

Tell me again how "enlightened" Hollywood is.; 4/2/15, 12:20 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "However, I am still astounded that the Professor wasn't aware of "The Inquisition, The Inquisition, its better to lose your skull cap than your skull." In my experience there is a large overlap between the sets "Monty Python Fans" and "Mel Brooks Fans.""

Some Mel Brooks movies didn't get good reviews and I avoided them. In the days before videotape and (later) YouTube, if you didn't make a point of going out to see something, that was the end of it. But I'm surprised this clip hasn't been bandied about more. I'd never even noticed it. I was aware of the movie title, but mentally filed it away in the bad Mel Brooks category. On paper, "better to lose your skull cap than your skull" doesn't come across as very clever or sophisticated. It's the sheer commitment over the whole 9 minutes that's impressive. If I were trying to sit through a whole long movie of such sequences, I'd probably be annoyed.; 4/2/15, 12:22 PM
Hunter said...: Dislike of Lena Dunham isn't due to sexism, it's due to her personality. She does and says all these utterly banal things yet is convinced that she is unique and fascinating.

But when the personal is political I guess that means there's no such thing as dislike for a woman unmotivated by sexism.

With, of course, some obvious exceptions.; 4/2/15, 12:26 PM
Anonymous said...: "To put the Catholic's Inquisitions into perspective"

To put TraditionalMoron in perspective, his orange kind were the protestant SS'ers inflicted on Catholic Ireland. Thank God that evil was finally ended.

Also notice that according to TraditionalAsshole 6.000.000 jews murdered by the nazis in 4 years are equivalent to 2.000 to 5.000 executions in 3 centuries of "jews and Christians". That certainly puts the mind of this "Guy" in perspective.

Ps. Sorry for lowering the tone of the blog, normally I only lurk but this idiot annoys me no end.; 4/2/15, 12:28 PM
Witness said...: "Why isn't that Mel Brooks song-and-dance more deeply engrained in the culture? Is it because he's Jewish? "

It's because he's American.; 4/2/15, 12:29 PM
Beldar said...: @ Anglelyne, re the comparison of Python & Brooks:

Perhaps you're being a bit harsh, but I concede, of course, that de gustibus non est disputandum.

I thought both bits were funny. And if you ask the Pythons, I'm pretty sure they'd admit that Mel Brooks was among their own comic influences: He's been around a lot longer than they have, and he was the brains behind "Your Show of Shows" and other classics that have influenced all visual comedy ever since.

There's also no shortage in the Python repertoire of skits incorporating the Hollywood musical-comedy/Busby Berkeley dancer schtick. And as for lampooning religion, the Pythons' "Life of Brian" was very much on a par with this Brooks clip.; 4/2/15, 12:29 PM
Xmas said...: Really?

I also get the "Hey Torquemada wadda say? I just got back from the Auto de Fe!" bit stuck in my head all the time as an earworm.

Also, this song and dance number is really the weakest part of History of the World Part 1. The Roman Empire and French Revolution bits are better.; 4/2/15, 12:31 PM
ron winkleheimer said...: "Some Mel Brooks movies didn't get good reviews and I avoided them. In the days before videotape and (later) YouTube, if you didn't make a point of going out to see something, that was the end of it."

I've never been a big movie goer. There was a time for a couple of years, that I could honestly say that I had not seen Star Wars, but had read the book. I first saw the movie when it was broadcast. I just never enjoyed the theater experience. So it wasn't until the advent of VHS and then the Internet that I started to see a lot of movies. And when your experience of movies is like that you tend to see all of a particular director's films. You see one you like and you search out their other movies. I suppose I'm surprised you hadn't seen or heard of HOTW Part 1 is because I consider it to be one of Brook's good ones and assumed that anyone who liked Brook's work would have seen it. Now, if you had said you hadn't seen Spaceballs I would have congratulated you on being so fortunate.; 4/2/15, 12:36 PM
Alexander said...: To put the Catholic's Inquisitions into perspective, it helps to realize the NAZI SS got about four years to do what they did torturing Jews and stealing their stuff after murdering them

The Catholic Pope got three hundred and twenty seven years of torturing Jews and Christians and stealing their stuff. Thank God that evil finally was defeated.

Let's put it in perspective then, since that is what you want.

First) 125,000 heresy trials, of which about 1% of those amounted in deaths. 1250 deaths in 350 years. Round it up and we'll give you four deaths a year.

Second) Pope had nothing to do with it. The Spanish Inquisition was specifically made so that the Spanish Monarchy (a secular institution) would have power over it, to replace the Roman Inquisition. So you're not only wrong on the 'perspective' element, you're also wrong on the nature of the group. It's like pointing at Eisenhower's last name and assuming he bears some responsibility for the Holocaust.

Third) The Spanish had just finished reclaiming their homeland from invaders that the Jewish population unquestionably had supported.The Jewish Encyclopedia does not dispute this fact. That the Catholic Spanish would seek to root out those who were had only pretended to convert in order to prevent expulsion, after their group had supported the enemy is like bitching the Poles didn't take kindly to Germans living in Warsaw in 1946. Make the argument that it was still unjust if you wish, but comparing it to the invading another country and systematically executing their populations is ridiculous.

So to clarify, an organization that you incorrectly identify as reporting to the Pope expelled those groups that had fought against them, and sought to root out insincere converts. Despite the prescribed penalty, mercy was shown in 99% of cases. In sum, a Christian Organization that is bandied about as the evil group of evil that proves all Christendom to be evil proved to be less lethal to Spanish Jews than bicycles are to American schoolchildren.

Is that an acceptable 'perspective' for you?; 4/2/15, 12:43 PM
traditionalguy said...: Phil D...you need to study the facts of Catholic history in some uncensored histories using the facts that are not mentioned in Roman propaganda.; 4/2/15, 12:44 PM
Unknown said...: No, it's because it's highly derivative of the "Producers" - "Springtime for Hitler".; 4/2/15, 12:45 PM
President-Mom-Jeans said...: "It's good to be the King."

At least as famous as any Python bit.

Both Monty Python and Mel Brooks both being brilliant.; 4/2/15, 12:49 PM
Sebastian said...: "How many of the Jewish converts to Christianity were sincere?"

Still a question in Inquisition scholarship. One big though "controversial" contributor: Benzion Netanyahu, father of that other Netanyahu. (His thesis was that the conversos were genuine Christians, and therefore unjustly persecuted.)

Ain't gonna defend the Inquisition. But it carries the taint of pseudo-Enlightenment slander from an earlier culture war.; 4/2/15, 12:50 PM
Big Mike said...: Let me see whether I have this right. Trevor Noah joking about Jewish girlfriends and fat white women isn't funny, but a fat Jewish woman joking about how she can't tell the difference between a Jewish boyfriend and a dog is hilarious.

I'm missing something.

@Anglelyne, I'm with you. The Monty Python skit is funny. Brooks skit isn't. I have no idea why people find Mel Brooks to be funny. I didn't even like "Blazing Saddles."; 4/2/15, 12:54 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @tradguy,

you need to study the facts of Catholic history in some uncensored histories using the facts that are not mentioned in Roman propaganda.

No, tradguy, you need to stop being a reflexive anti-Catholic bigot & all around historical imbecile.

You claim to be Calvinist. Do you even know what T.U.L.I.P is, much less believe the points? If so, in all the time I've been here, I've never seen any evidence that you understand Calvinist theology vs everyone else's theology.

We're reading "censored" "Roman" tracts. Oh, good Lord. Pick a decent university near you and sit in on a history course on the Reformation, Middle Ages, Renaissance, or Early Modern. The historical views discussed here are not controversial in the least, among Catholic, Protestant, or non-believer historians.; 4/2/15, 12:55 PM
Amexpat said...: Why isn't that Mel Brooks song and dance more deeply engrained in the culture?

Because its overshadowed by the Springtime in Germany bit from the Producers. That was first, funnier and more memorable.; 4/2/15, 12:56 PM
Alexander said...: Ah, but Sebastian.

If the converts were sincere, then they were no longer Jews.

So then, the Inquisition targeted no Jews. The Inquisition either correctly found Jews who were attempting to evade the law, or the persecuted Christians!

But I (and the Jewish Encyclopedia) suspect that most of those tried had falsely converted. For one, non-Christians get worked into such a blather about it, that it's hard to see it any other way. I can't think of another example in history where group A genuinely defected from group B to group C, and then group B got up in arms when group C persecuted group A.; 4/2/15, 12:56 PM
Alexander said...: In short, you can't both be a Jew who earnestly renounces his Jewishness, and a persecuted Jew.; 4/2/15, 12:57 PM
Anonymous said...: "Phil D...you need to study the facts of Catholic history in some uncensored histories using the facts that are not mentioned in Roman propaganda"

Well, TraditionalMoron, I didn't use any "Roman propaganda" for "facts".
For my answer I only used your very own sick, insane and delusional ramblings together with a little historical knowledge. Oh, and also sarcasm (the "thank God" bit).; 4/2/15, 1:01 PM
Unknown said...: Anglelyne said...
Gave the clip a fair three minutes. Went from unfunny to unfunny and annoying, just like all the other Mel Brooks stuff I remember being dragged to in high schoool, so I bailed.

Even "Young Franklinstein"?; 4/2/15, 1:27 PM
Sebastian said...: "If the converts were sincere, then they were no longer Jews . . . In short, you can't both be a Jew who earnestly renounces his Jewishness, and a persecuted Jew."

Correct. I take Netanyahu's (contested!) thesis to be that the conversos were no longer Jews and the Inquisition therefore unjustly persecuted (real) Christians rather than Jews. (But to bolster his thesis he dismisses the Inquisition's own records as unreliable.); 4/2/15, 1:30 PM
Anonymous said...: Beldar: And if you ask the Pythons, I'm pretty sure they'd admit that Mel Brooks was among their own comic influences...

He's still not funny.

There's also no shortage in the Python repertoire of skits incorporating the Hollywood musical-comedy/Busby Berkeley dancer schtick.

How does that make Brooks funny when he's not?

And as for lampooning religion, the Pythons' "Life of Brian" was very much on a par with this Brooks clip.

Except that it was funny.

The Life of Brian is one of the funniest movies, if not the funniest movie, ever made. Even after all these years, I can re-watch it and it still cracks me up. When I die and go to hell my eternal torments will consist largely of having to watch Mel Brooks movies on an endless loop.

...but I concede, of course, that de gustibus non est disputandum.

And yet here you are, disputanduming the gustibus with me.; 4/2/15, 1:42 PM
DKWalser said...: If I were trying to sit through a whole long movie of such sequences, I'd probably be annoyed.

This explains why the bit isn't more ingrained in our culture. For most people, History of the World was and is all but unwatchable. There's not enough of a plot to tie together the different comic routines. So, by the time the Spanish Inquisition bit comes up in the movie, many viewers are at the annoyed phase of watching the movie.

That's not to say there aren't fans of History of the World. Some think it is comic genius and enjoyable to watch from beginning to end. Their numbers are just too small for this one bit to have made it into our cultural fabric. Maybe that'll change with Youtube.; 4/2/15, 2:14 PM
Anonymous said...: Trevor Noah should try holding a gun to his own head and threatening to "blow this poor nigger's head off".; 4/2/15, 2:18 PM
traditionalguy said...: Why debate if Conversos were sincer or not. That did NOT matter. What mattered was the division of the secretly accused Converso's wealth between the accuser and the Inquisition.

The wealth Conversos, or later the expelled wealthy Jews could pay 50,000,000 dollar size bribes directly to the Pope and purchase a special dispensation, which Ferdinand and Torquemada then ignored. They wanted to keep the game's gold going into their pockets alone.; 4/2/15, 2:20 PM
D. B. Light said...: I am not a Catholic, or even a Christian, but I find Mel Brooks' updating of "La Leyenda Negra" decidedly unfunny and more than a little offensive.; 4/2/15, 2:51 PM
Alexander said...: You know, if they wanted to keep their money, they could have you know... left Spain like they were told to, instead of staying under false pretenses.

Look, frankly I get it. The Jews are always going to be a overwhelming minority compared to Christians and Muslims, and so there's an obvious survival mechanism in ensuring that the two sides are always more-or-less equal so they don't have time to worry about you. My people, the English, did much the same for centuries regarding continental powers.

But the downside is that every once in a while, you support one side and that side loses. Then, quite rationally the winner comes after you to keep a potential enemy out of the rear lines.

The Spanish crown's decision to expel the Jews following the reconquista was a rational decision, and Jewish history does not dispute the key facts regarding the loyalties of the Jewish community at large during and immediately after the campaigns.

That very much does matter.

Now, if you want to tell me that it was unnecessarily harsh, you can make that claim. But note know that you are moving the goal posts from THESE GUYS WERE LIKE HITLER, ONLY FOR A LONGER PERIOD, to THESE GUYS WERE CORRUPT AND EMBEZZLED.

Not quite in the same ballpark as far as crimes against humanity goes.

Likewise, sincerity of the Conversos does matter, because it means the difference between having an established law and punishing the offenders, regardless of how excessive you think that punishment is, and deciding to fleece wealthy people who have followed your rules in good faith simply because they - as newcomers - are vulnerable.; 4/2/15, 3:01 PM
Alexander said...: Furthermore, I note that while you first tied the Pope to the Spanish Inquisition, you are now switching to the fact that the Spanish actively ignored the Pope.

So did you go and have a perusal through wikipedia after I shot you down the first time and still insisting that we treat you like something of an expert on the topic like your schoolboy error never happened, or were you aware of the disconnect between Rome and Madrid the entire time and simply being disingenuous to take a cheap shot at Roman Catholics?; 4/2/15, 3:05 PM
FullMoon said...: Eustace Chilke said...

....lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ.
So, you just go ahead and throw it out there without reading prior comments? Me too.; 4/2/15, 4:01 PM
FullMoon said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/2/15, 4:04 PM
Known Unknown said...: People still try to take Alex seriously?

He said "tits" for crying out loud.; 4/2/15, 4:09 PM
Known Unknown said...: Brooks is very hit-or-miss.

Blazing Saddles was his best film. A film that could never, ever, ever, be made today.; 4/2/15, 4:11 PM
traditionalguy said...: Alexander....How can you be that stupid? Jews are not dangerous criminals. They were the honest bankers and merchants.

The Catholic Empire circa 1250 to 1792 were simply a dedicated corrupt criminal gang under Popes ruling out of Rome over an organized mafia gang of appointed kings (the Capos) ruling territory in Spain, and ruling in France, and ruling in Belgium, and ruling in Portugal, and ruling in Austria, and Bohemia, and Poland. When we join the story the Pope and the Clerical Aristocracy were desperate to restore rule over the escaped Island of England, and the fought for that for 130 years working with their secret diplomats and Jesuit organized armies in Ireland and Scotland supported by the occasional Armada of 130 warships to carry 400,000 soldiers as an invasion force from The Spanish Netherlands, and an attemptsto blow up Parliament

What is moronic is an intelligent person stuck in continuing attempts to erase the history. But the fight has always been about suppressing history. But the Roman Mafia lost the fight after industrial level Printing came along and opened newly literate, educated men's eyes faster than the Christians could be arrested and burned alive.; 4/2/15, 4:13 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Maybe it's that "Candide" has much better lyrics and music.; 4/2/15, 4:25 PM
Alexander said...: Nobody said they were dangerous criminals, I said they backed the wrong side. Do try to keep up.

American loyalists to the crown weren't criminals either- many were honest bankers and merchants. Good chunk of them got de facto exiled anyway. Exiling civilians who sided with and financed the wrong side is hardly a historical anomaly.; 4/2/15, 4:44 PM
richard mcenroe said...: Traditional Guy -- Reverend Paisley, is that you?; 4/2/15, 4:53 PM
PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...: Terry,

What is the "Jewish sabbath day"?

The Sabbath Day, for Christians and Jews is Saturday, the last day of the week. The day on which God rested.

There seems to be a modern tendency to call Sunday, the first day of the week, the day on which the Lord rose, the Sabbath Day or the Christian Sabbath Day. It is not. It is "The Lord's Day"

In Spanish and Italian the word for Sabbath and Saturday is the same Sabado and Sabat.

John Henry; 4/2/15, 4:56 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Anglelyne said...
"Why isn't that more famous?"

Because the Python skit was funny, and this isn't.

"Is it because he's Jewish?"

I must keep up. It's anti-Semitic now to prefer Python humor to Mel Brooks humor?

I knew, if I waited long enough, at some point I would find a point of agreement with Angelyne.

I don't hate Brooks' stuff, but there was a severe decline from The Producers to much of his subsequent output.; 4/2/15, 5:01 PM
rcocean said...: "You know, if they wanted to keep their money, they could have you know... left Spain like they were told to, instead of staying under false pretenses."

Yes, it should be noted many of those who stayed under false pretense were MUSLIM not Jewish.; 4/2/15, 5:02 PM
ron winkleheimer said...: "Brooks is very hit-or-miss."

Yep, and when he is awful he is really, really awful. Spaceballs, Dead and Loving It.

I think his best was Young Frankenstein with Blazing Saddles being a very close second.; 4/2/15, 5:03 PM
rcocean said...: I always find Mel Brooks hilarious. The song of course is historically inaccurate but so what? Its funny.; 4/2/15, 5:07 PM
rcocean said...: People like the Python bit because you don't need to know anything about the inquisition or anything else. Its just a crazy non-sequitor (sic).; 4/2/15, 5:09 PM
traditionalguy said...: Interesting theory that Jews in the 1490s owed it to the King of Spain to leave everything behind and become slaves in Tunisia. So that was fair. Losers lose it all.

But what did the loyal French subjects of the King of France do besides show up in Paris to celebrate his wedding in August 1582 and be systematically killed in their beds by a Catholic plot for agreeing the French Hugunot John Calvin was I great theologian.

The Roman propaganda will say 2000 were killed in one night. But the truth is that 70,000 were killed in two weeks and the cities down river from Paris could not use the water for three months as corpses floated downstream.

That was a secret mass murder of the best citizens of France for believing in a Christianity that did not enrich the Pope's gang.

We benefited from many Huguenots leaders who fled here. Such as the Delanos who are the D in FDR.; 4/2/15, 5:50 PM
Balfegor said...: Cor, given the turn this discussion has taken, I kind of feel like I should go on record here saying I am not in favour of ethnic cleansing, of the expulsion of the Jews, or the forced conversion of the Muslims and Jews in the Reconquista.

There's worse, of course, but these are all bad things. And one can admit that without subscribing to traditionalguy's bizarro-world Protestant propaganda.; 4/2/15, 6:16 PM
Balfegor said...: Sorry, I mean this Reconquista, not this one. As soon as I posted I realised there's also a Revanchist movement active today that uses the term as well.; 4/2/15, 6:19 PM
traditionalguy said...: Thanks Balfegor. That is all I wanted to hear. Deal with the truth. I'll be the crazy Protestant heretic, if the Catholics quit covering up as if they can re-write history and get away with it.; 4/2/15, 6:27 PM
Alexander said...: Balfegor,

For the Jews, they were and always have been too small a population to make much of a difference, but one should note that the choice was not 'convert or expel the Muslims or don't' but 'covert or expel the Muslims, or accept a population within one's homeland actively looking for a Muslim reinvasion from Africa, complete with Jizya and Dhimmitude.' Look at the treaty of Granada in 1491 to see how even with Spanish muslims a thread away from total defeat, still demanded the subservience of Christians within their lands, and that demands they had previously placed on others not be placed on them.

In that light, Christian rulers had not simply a choice, but a moral obligation to their people to expel the long-time invaders from their lands.

We agree completely, however, that tg continues to play the court fool.; 4/2/15, 6:28 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: If you ever get a chance to go back on yer meds & actually, you know, read some history, you might want to look into Martin Luther & his views on the Jews.

The Reformation may have been many things, but a philo-semitic lovefest wasn't one of them.

It's sometimes hard to figure out which side of the Reformation hated Jews more. As with Shiites and Sunnis, I think they used it (hating Jews) as an item of competition. Nevertheless, emancipation proceeded pretty well in lands that directly challenged papal authority (England), were Protestant (pre-WWII Germany and the Netherlands) or anti-clerical (France).

As for Catholicism after the counter-reformation, Gerald Posner points out that the majority of Nazis and concentration camp guards were Catholic. Many great people, but ask any Jew in America pre-1960 which group, Protestants or Catholics, were taught starting from childhood to riddle them with more open hatred - especially around Easter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTXiSc0zVUA; 4/2/15, 7:10 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @R&B,

Many great people, but ask any Jew in America pre-1960 which group, Protestants or Catholics, were taught starting from childhood to riddle them with more open hatred - especially around Easter.

Sure, that's because the Jews were mostly in the NE, and the Catholics around them in ethnic enclaves that preserved the prejudices from the old country.

Were the Protestants where, by contrast, places such as the South, you just didn't have that many Jews around to dislike. In my town in northern Alabama of 50,000 people, the number of Jewish families could be counted on both hands.

And, of course, the great gaping hole in your argument is that the most Protestant American ethnic group -- blacks -- are also the most anti-Semitic. But an accurate analysis of that would involve American Judaism facing up to their weird relationship with American blacks, which isn't going to happen because if it did the Democratic Party would implode.; 4/2/15, 7:28 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I never mentioned (or argued) anything having to American blacks. Sure, they're technically Protestant, but I think most of their bitching and moaning started post-civil rights, mostly around Farrakhan's time. Even this was fringe, though. Chris Rock in the 1990s attested to blacks "hating white people", and not having "time to dice them up into groups." He didn't care if you just got off the boat… I'm paraphrasing here. Watch the clip.

From publicly posted comments, my sense is the most anti-Jewish/Israel group in America nowadays is Hispanics. Not all, a few philo-semitic even, but it seems to be were the most resilient general antipathy remains.

The Catholics I referenced earlier were not from the Northeast.; 4/2/15, 7:38 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Black anti-semitism started, I think, as a form of resentment against the group that supported and helped them most during civil rights. The fact that Jews had already been (and remained) successful really rankled some of them, no doubt. I guess everyone wants to be their own "liberator".; 4/2/15, 7:47 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @R&B,

But ask any Jew in America pre-1960 which group, Protestants or Catholics, were taught starting from childhood to riddle them with more open hatred - especially around Easter.

How can that not be referencing the NE, which where most of the Jews & a plurality of the Catholics were? Would you mind making clear exactly where you were talking about?

Sure, they're technically Protestant,

I'll give you $100 if you go into a black church this Easter & tell them them they're technically Protetant. Be sure to have your life insurance paid up before you go, please.

From publicly posted comments, my sense is the most anti-Jewish/Israel group in America nowadays is Hispanics.

Yes, they are up there, but it's still the blacks. Actually, it was the contact made between the groups made during the Great Northern Migration of the 30's to 70's that started the frictions. They're just two very different cultures.; 4/2/15, 7:49 PM
kzookitty said...: History of the World Part I is pretty uneven, not surprising considering how much history is covered. Some parts drag (including Inquistion song IMO) and some aren't very funny, but some are gold...I give you the fifteen «CLUNK» the ten commandments!

As to Althouse never seeing it before, well, our hostess is a little bit of a movie snob. Remember, My Dinner with Andre is her fac film.

kzookitty; 4/2/15, 8:02 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: How can that not be referencing the NE, which where most of the Jews & a plurality of the Catholics were? Would you mind making clear exactly where you were talking about?

I spoke about the Midwest.; 4/2/15, 8:05 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I've heard Jewish Americans not from the Midwest say the same thing, though.; 4/2/15, 8:06 PM
ken in tx said...: There was a guy in my church who would let you know within 10 min of meeting him that he came from a Jewish background. I once mentioned to one of my Jewish relatives that he used to be a Jew but now he was a Presbyterian. She said, "No, he's still a Jew, he's just a Jewish Presbyterian."

IOW, you don't stop being a Jew just by changing your religion. The Nazis thought the same thing. Interesting isn't it?; 4/2/15, 8:10 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: 36% and 35% are not much different.

But black anti-semitism and Hispanic anti-semitism probably have different sources and social causes for support.

I don't think there's any reason to believe black anti-semitism is an old phenomenon, rather than something that started 40 years ago.

Hispanic anti-semitism, probably because of its Catholicism and the concurrence of New World settlement with the Inquisition starting at the same time, is obviously something that we can presume to be much older and stronger. The success of American HIspanics relative to American blacks makes that potentially more problematic (or at least noteworthy) also.; 4/2/15, 8:12 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @R&B,

I spoke about the Midwest.

And what were many of those Midwestern Catholics? Germans, Poles, Czechs, and "eastern" Europeans of every stripe who had little use for Jews back in the Old Country, and little use for them here.

Let let you in on a little secret: I'm a French Catholic from northern Alabama, and I think many Midwesterners, Catholic or not, are rude. I know they think they're anything but. The shit I've run into in the Dells, in rural Wisconsin, in Milwaukee, around Lansing, Michigan, in Chicago is worse than anything I've experienced even in NYC, much less DC. And compared to the South? Oh my God, people are so much nicer -- be they black, white, purple green --- in the South!; 4/2/15, 8:15 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Interesting isn't it?

Not really. German/racial anti-semitism saw itself as an evolution from the long established, religious form of anti-semitism that had existed previous to that.

Jews who consider Judaism to be more than just a religion are just being honest that it's a cultural/ethnic group that also happens to have its own religion, much as Japanese Shintos or Tibetan Buddhists do. Or, I guess, as Anglican English do. Or Greek Orthodox. Or whatever.; 4/2/15, 8:16 PM
RigelDog said...: Husband and I love the Inquisition routine and break out into the song at least a few times a year. Are we odd?; 4/2/15, 8:17 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: And what were many of those Midwestern Catholics? Germans, Poles, Czechs, and "eastern" Europeans of every stripe who had little use for Jews back in the Old Country, and little use for them here.

Ok. Not sure what point you're trying to make but it's your point. As I said, I'd heard the phenomenon was similar outside of the Midwest.

Let let you in on a little secret: I'm a French Catholic from northern Alabama, and I think many Midwesterners, Catholic or not, are rude. I know they think they're anything but.

I think you have an interesting point to make. I think Midwesterners are very nice but it tends to be a superficial niceness on the surface. Underneath, it seems they can be conflicted. My take on it is the nasty, often sunless weather. If they don't pretend to be nice for the six months out of the year that gets no sunlight, they might end up killing each other. And then there's all the serial killers, who seem to underscore the point.

The shit I've run into in the Dells, in rural Wisconsin, in Milwaukee, around Lansing, Michigan, in Chicago is worse than anything I've experienced even in NYC, much less DC.

I think in NYC they value honesty and realism more, so when you get rude people, at least you see whatever point they're trying to make.

And compared to the South? Oh my God, people are so much nicer -- be they black, white, purple green --- in the South!

The price of Southern hospitality is an expectation of ideological/political/cultural conformity (or silence) and excessive tribute to the "honor" of one's family history. It's nice but those expectations are too stifling for too many Americans.; 4/2/15, 8:23 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @R&B,

The price of Southern hospitality is an expectation of ideological/political/cultural conformity (or silence)

No, not true now, maybe not true ever. Definitely what outsiders think, but still not true.

I will be sitting down to Seder with nine DC suburban Jews & gentiles on Saturday night. Trust me, the intellectual conformity & of that group will surpass any group of 9 family/friends for Easter dinner in a major urban area of the modern South.; 4/2/15, 8:28 PM
ken in tx said...: My family here in Texas will celebrate both Passover and Easter this week. I grew up in west Alabama, around plenty of Vine and Olive Colony French--Lagrones and Chanels everywhere. As a baptised Methodist, I frequently went to Mass with my Catholic friends. I helped fill up pews at Baptist revivals, and learned to sing shaped note hymns. The outsider's view of the South has always been wrong. Manners are not superficial.; 4/2/15, 8:51 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Maybe they shouldn't have gone to college.

Argumentativeness and passion does not indicate conformity.

Hag sameach.; 4/2/15, 8:52 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @Ken,

and learned to sing shaped note hymns.

You want weird, multicultural mashup, buddy? Let me show you weird, multicultural mashup.; 4/2/15, 9:41 PM
chickelit said...: Alex said...
So the gay-hating Pizza joint has raised $136K so far. They'll need every penny because they'll NEVER be allowed to have their bigoted business operating again. Honestly if this were the UK, these pizza bigots would already be in jail and there would be no "GoFundMe" campaign.

I love the UK.

Tits.

4/2/15, 11:23 AM

I can see now why Palladian though "Alex" and "Titus" were the same person. Also, I see why vbspurs banished Alex from her blog Sundries. It's a bit blurry, but it's all slowly coming into focus. Just a few more facts before I publish my thesis.; 4/2/15, 10:15 PM