Althouse: "Teens who completely suppress puberty are also likely to be sterile, but Bird says it's now possible to undergo a temporary puberty."

April 6, 2015

"Teens who completely suppress puberty are also likely to be sterile, but Bird says it's now possible to undergo a temporary puberty."

"It can last for just long enough to harvest sperm or eggs for later use, but not so long that a teen begins to grow sexual features, like breasts or an Adam's apple."

From an NPR piece titled "Puberty Suppression Now A Choice For Teens On Medicaid In Oregon."

53 comments:

Vet66 said...: The long term results of this remind me of the old adage; don't mess with mother nature. I don't believe this will turn out pretty in the long term especially with what scarce research is involved.; 4/6/15, 7:41 AM
rhhardin said...: We can hear choral castrati on the original instrument again.; 4/6/15, 7:41 AM
MadisonMan said...: I'm grateful I did not have to parent through something like this. Seeing your child supremely unhappy is agony.; 4/6/15, 7:44 AM
MayBee said...: This will be our time's lobotomy.; 4/6/15, 7:46 AM
Clayton Hennesey said...: Well, on the bright side, if we ruin a few teens doing this we can always make more.; 4/6/15, 7:49 AM
Renee said...: I agree with MayBee.

I'm sympathetic of trying to correct a medical problem, mind works as one gender that doesn't connect to the body's anatomy.

Correct the brain organ (not lobotomy, by therapy/meds) or do you correct the reproductive organs (surgery/hormonal therapy).

There is no transgender blood test, it's really all about the what the young teenager is expressing.; 4/6/15, 8:02 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Lolita therapy. A way to make eighteen-year-old girls look like they are twelve.

Seems like this would be big in Japan. Knee-high socks, etc.

I am Laslo.; 4/6/15, 8:06 AM
Jason said...: Do we treat anorexia with diet pills and liposuction?

You watch. Gay twinks and niche loli prostitutes and strippers will avail themselves of this procedure to enhance their market value as rent boys, hookers, strippers and porn performers.

Don't get excited, Laslo.; 4/6/15, 8:36 AM
chickelit said...: "Bitter living through chemistry"; 4/6/15, 8:59 AM
chillblaine said...: Keep Portland Weird.; 4/6/15, 9:00 AM
Anonymous said...: I've never read these stories without a little alarm bell going off about mom. And it's always the mother - a father is rarely in the picture. They always trot out some variant of "the dress story" that this woman presents as evidence that her child is really a girl trapped in a boy's body. The story always indicates the adult's approval, leading questions, and active encouragement. And that's just the stuff that they're admitting to in a newspaper story.

There have always been kids "born that way" - naturally very effeminate boys and ultra-tomboyish girls, no doubt socially tough on the kids themselves and the parents raising them. But there's a definite creepy Munchausen vibe coming off these parents, and the tranny-overload we're getting these days from the ever-stupider clickbait press is probably bringing gullible and dysfunctional parents out of the woodwork and into the doctor's office. (Thirty years ago they would have convinced themselves that the kid had been abused in Satanic rituals by their day-care provider.)

I'm skeptical that these massive medical interventions at very early ages, for most of these kids, have the great mental health benefits claimed in the article. We've been here before.; 4/6/15, 9:02 AM
Roger Sweeny said...: The long term results of this remind me of the old adage; don't mess with mother nature.

But the problem is that mother nature has been cruel here. She has NOT been a good mother.

There is a great irony. People who believe in a "created the universe in six days and said, 'It is good'" God have to answer the question, "If God is good, why is there suffering and injustice in the world? Why do the evil often prosper and the good fail?" Those who believe in Darwinian evolution don't have that problem. Evolution is a morally neutral process which often has results that seem inhumane (e.g., birth defects, cancer).

Yet people who think they believe in evolution treat it like a benevolent God. It has created a good Nature that you shouldn't mess with.

This is psychologically comforting and profoundly unscientific.; 4/6/15, 9:11 AM
damikesc said...: Anybody who tries to suppress a teen's puberty should have their parental rights removed indefinitely.

That is absolute child abuse. Horrifying that the Progressives support this.

There is a great irony. People who believe in a "created the universe in six days and said, 'It is good'" God have to answer the question, "If God is good, why is there suffering and injustice in the world? Why do the evil often prosper and the good fail?" Those who believe in Darwinian evolution don't have that problem. Evolution is a morally neutral process which often has results that seem inhumane (e.g., birth defects, cancer).

God isn't a micromanager and, sometimes, people have to see that evil ACTUALLY exists. When Satan returns, he's going to be extremely charming and personable. He won't be a demon.; 4/6/15, 9:14 AM
CStanley said...: What Angelyne said. What if instead, when little boys express interest in girly things we treat this as a normal stage and recognize that this kid could grow into a male on the more feminine side of the spectrum? We need a category similar to tomboys for effeminate boys- allowing people of both genders to continue to develop according to their natural sex but not be forced to a polarized version of gender when that's not a good fit.; 4/6/15, 9:17 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Puberty suppression for all children. When they are eighteen they can choose the sex that they wish to be assigned.

Cruel neutrality, of a kind.

I am Laslo.; 4/6/15, 9:23 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Well, at least we don't have to pay for someone else's choice. Wait, what's that you say?; 4/6/15, 9:24 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Gatorade Puberty Suppression Drink: the choice of aspiring female gymnasts everywhere.

I am Laslo.; 4/6/15, 9:26 AM
Gahrie said...: How is this not child abuse?; 4/6/15, 9:26 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Now, a drug that helps eighteen-year-old girls suppress their gag reflex: that I can get behind. Or in front of.

I am Laslo.; 4/6/15, 9:28 AM
MayBee said...: But there's a definite creepy Munchausen vibe coming off these parents,

Exactly! A race to show how very especially understanding they are of their own children, of all children, of all beings.

"Look how hard I fight for my own child! Just look!"; 4/6/15, 9:41 AM
Jane the Actuary said...: In addition to the creepy story of the mom very happy to offer dress-wearing to her son, I think that a lot of the kids who insist they're transgender comes from the nature of a child's brain; they very simply think "I like the things that girls like, so I must be a girl." Does someone tell them, "it's OK for boys to like dolls, too"?; 4/6/15, 10:04 AM
MadisonMan said...: I think you are being too hard on this parent in this case. There is no evidence in the quoted article that she is receiving plaudits for her mothering behavior.

I will agree with CStanley -- how would this have played out if were treated as a phase? It seems to me that the attention he received as a girl could've played into his psyche. Positive Feedback.; 4/6/15, 10:07 AM
MayBee said...: There are people in that comments section advocating suppressing puberty just to as a way to deal with modern society.; 4/6/15, 10:23 AM
MayBee said...: I think you are being too hard on this parent in this case. There is no evidence in the quoted article that she is receiving plaudits for her mothering behavior.

It doesn't have to be plaudits. It's attention, concern, a feeling that you are doing something remarkable on behalf of your child. Fighting a fight for them.; 4/6/15, 10:24 AM
MayBee said...: I will agree with CStanley -- how would this have played out if were treated as a phase? It seems to me that the attention he received as a girl could've played into his psyche. Positive Feedback.

Yes, I agree with this.
That's also part of the parenting thing I'm talking about wrt Munchausen. There was obviously a positive feedback loop Michael was getting as Michaela. Or at least an attention loop.

Since when did wanting to wear dresses mean you want to become a girl? When my boys were little they would watch me put on makeup or nail polish and want to try it. So I let them. I didn't take it as any indication that they wanted to be female, just that the parent they spent the most time with did these certain things and they wanted to try. No big deal.

Little kids behave all kinds of ways and experiment with all kinds of behaviors. They want to dress up, they want to pee in the front yard, they want to pull hair, they want a pet tiger. I don't think putting so much weight on their choices serves them well.; 4/6/15, 10:35 AM
Michael The Magnificent said...: Using modern medicine to overcome natures chlorine in the gene pool.

I'm sure it'll all turn out just dandy.

Memo to self:
Before marriage, get credit history, criminal history, and genetic report.; 4/6/15, 10:36 AM
Marc in Eugene said...: This is just terrible, as MayBee and others have suggested. And Rhhardin is right, too-- perhaps we can develope a market in the sex trade for 18+ year olds who are prepubescent in appearance.; 4/6/15, 10:39 AM
Birches said...: Since when did wanting to wear dresses mean you want to become a girl? When my boys were little they would watch me put on makeup or nail polish and want to try it. So I let them. I didn't take it as any indication that they wanted to be female, just that the parent they spent the most time with did these certain things and they wanted to try. No big deal.

Little kids behave all kinds of ways and experiment with all kinds of behaviors. They want to dress up, they want to pee in the front yard, they want to pull hair, they want a pet tiger. I don't think putting so much weight on their choices serves them well.

Yes.

Considering how we're always told there's a vast gender spectrum, it seems the spectrum advocates are the ones who hold fast to old cliches about gender roles.; 4/6/15, 10:49 AM
Unknown said...: Sweny & damiksec: not only is "God not a micromanager," He actually allows people to make choices, and some choices have bad outcomes. Some of the bad outcomes of choices tend to slop over onto other people. God is gracious enough to let us know how to avoid bad outcomes, or deal with the unavoidable ones. He is gracious enough to allow everyone the choice to live in His presence (God is love) or not (whatever "not love" turns out to be).; 4/6/15, 10:52 AM
CWJ said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/6/15, 11:10 AM
CWJ said...: Marc Puckett wrote -

"This is just terrible, as MayBee and others have suggested. And Rhhardin is right, too-- perhaps we can develope a market in the sex trade for 18+ year olds who are prepubescent in appearance."

Wow! Think about that for a moment. Legal age child pornography. The talmudic minded law lovers will go crazy over this.

And all on the taxpayers' medicaid dime to boot. Bonus!; 4/6/15, 11:12 AM
Xmas said...: There are already a couple of "actresses" that appear to be underage, and it's a boatload of trouble. There was a recent story of a guy getting busted by customs with videos of a female performer who appeared underage. The performer herself showed up at the trial to confirm she was actually 19 years old. (Link goes to SFW Wikipedia article).; 4/6/15, 11:23 AM
YoungHegelian said...: Sure, let's just suppress puberty for however long we want until Junior figures out what team s/he wants to play on.

My question is: if, & almost certainly when, later in life Junior faces cancer caused by years of people mucking with his/her hormones, who can s/he sue?

Sex hormones affect much more than just the appearance of secondary sex characteristics (e.g. calcium metabolism, brain development, personality characteristics, etc.). If there's a bunch of developmental traits we know about, what are we going to find out we didn't know about? And what about the poor children who were the guinea pigs for these discoveries?

I can't see this ending well, but at least these children will be hailed as heroic & necessary sacrifices to the Great Goddess, Sex.; 4/6/15, 11:33 AM
MayBee said...: Michaela wants to transition from male to female — meaning she doesn't want to grow an Adam's apple, facial hair or a heavy male body structure. To stop that process, she now gets an injection once every three months,

A lot of kids struggle with their changing body during puberty. Some girls are embarrassed of their breasts. Some don't want their period, some starve themselves or eat too much to hide what their body is doing.
Some boys are embarrassed of the excess body hair. Of their voices changing. Of the smell they start generating.

It's a very confusing time for lots of kids. Most kids.

Look at what they are considering doing to young children here- put them on medication that gives them hot flashes and headaches. Put them through surgery to harvest their eggs or sperm.

Are they undergoing psychological testing? Is that even allowed anymore?
Is there therapy involved?; 4/6/15, 11:56 AM
Anonymous said...: This is child abuse sanctioned and paid for by your government.

Disgusting.; 4/6/15, 12:32 PM
Laura said...: Journalists are evidently undergoing treatment for curiosity, if not intellect, suppression.

Proof, you say?

"When people get treatment, [Ariel Smits] says, those [suicide] rates drop to a level much closer to that of the general population."

Still higher, but closer. How much closer? No inquiry into the literature is required (East German athletes be damned!); Ms. Smits said it, that makes it so.

Also of note, the mother featured in the story, if by chance beyond her reproductive years, now has the perfect family: one son, one "daughter." Little boys don't need dresses to have fun twirling, but mothers without daughters just might have to defer gratification.

"Sex hormones affect much more than just the appearance of secondary sex characteristics," and hormones that travel north of the shoulders act as neurotransmitters. But don't constrain the psychiatric community with those pesky little biomarkers other medical fields use.

While we're at it, why not devise subwoofer implants for schizophrenics? They're just as misunderstood . . .; 4/6/15, 3:34 PM
jr565 said...: Any boy who wants to look like a girl can just grow your hair long and put some mascara on, put a dress on and they'll look very female," she says. "But as soon as puberty hits, that's when the body pretty much turns on someone who is transgender."

Michaela wants to transition from male to female — meaning she doesn't want to grow an Adam's apple, facial hair or a heavy male body structure. To stop that process, she now gets an injection once every three months"
Parents who allow this should be jailed for child abuse.
This is batshit insane. A 7 year old?
When puberty hits is when the body turns on the transgender, because that's when you start growing your breasts, or your voice changes.; 4/6/15, 5:57 PM
Michael K said...: "there's a definite creepy Munchausen vibe coming off these parents,"

Yup, Munchausen by proxy is what it is.

Johns Hopkins closed their clinic and it is pretty obvious why.; 4/6/15, 5:59 PM
jr565 said...: God gave you a vagina or a penis. If not god then random nature. that's who you are. You are born that way.
Your doctor is not mother nature and cant change your DNA. You will be what you are,even if a doctor lops your penis off and gives you a fake vagina.
I'm sorry, but its a fact.; 4/6/15, 6:00 PM
ken in tx said...: I had a baby doll when I was a toddler. The kind that would wet after getting a bottle and would cry when you squeezed it. When I was five my little sister was born and I gave it to her.

I turned out pretty much OK and male. I have eight grand kids, that I know of.; 4/6/15, 7:11 PM
Doug said...: Michaela? Dr. Mengele will see you now.; 4/6/15, 7:27 PM
Clyde said...: WTF?! Seriously, what child thinks about stuff like that at age 6 or 7 unless the wacko mother is putting ideas into his head?; 4/6/15, 11:30 PM
MayBee said...: ken in tx-
your baby doll comment does remind me. There was/has been a push to make sure toys are gender neutral. It should be ok for boys to play with dolls! The easy bake oven should come in blue!

But then....boys express an interest in traditionally girl things and the social justice people use it as evidence they are trans gender.; 4/7/15, 7:54 AM
Roger Sweeny said...: jr565,

The problem is that sometimes God (or random nature) gives you a penis but also gives you the conviction that you are actually a female who has been given the wrong body.

You are who you are and you are both those things. People are born with cleft palates or as conjoined twins or with many other conditions. We often change those conditions with surgery even though it makes them something different.; 4/7/15, 8:32 AM
CStanley said...: @Roger Sweeney:
With some of those conditions it is clear that function is impaired and surgical correction is the only possible way to restore quality of life. Logic would tell us that the least invasive approach should be used.

In the case of a conviction, it is not at all evident that the conviction is immutable- in fact at these young ages it would be wise to assume the thoughts should be addressed, not the physical body.; 4/7/15, 8:55 AM
Renee said...: Local paper has a profile of a local transgender teenager.

No one questions anything.

All praise in the comment section.; 4/7/15, 9:21 AM
Roger Sweeny said...: It would seem, especially if you're happily heterosexual, that the conviction is easier to change than the body. After all, the body has a clear physical presence. And in the case of most people, the body and mind have no sexual conflict.

But a significant number of people are so strong in the conviction that they are willing to undergo what seem to me ridiculous amounts of surgery, hormone treatment, and kicking over of a long, past life--which may include a spouse and children.

There's no good way to deal with this. God (or random nature) can be very cruel.; 4/7/15, 9:21 AM
Renee said...: The link.
http://www.lowellsun.com/news/ci_27863755/transgender-student-opens-doors-and-minds-townsend

"The senior, who has been accepted at the University of New Hampshire, wants to become an obstetrician so that he can help transgender people with pregnancies"

Bangs head.

He's just a kid.; 4/7/15, 9:28 AM
CStanley said...: @Roger: agree it can be complicated and cruel, but this is what comes of giving so much power to the idea of individual autonomy. It's reached the point that a large number of people- including those who suffer from these delusions as well as those who sympathize with them- believe that the individual mind should be able to trump physical reality.

And what we are talking about with these stories of kids is the role that the adults play in shaping the minds of impressionable children and adolescents.; 4/7/15, 9:40 AM
Bad Lieutenant said...: I bet if there was a death penalty for this, the problem would vanish like smoke.; 4/7/15, 11:30 AM
Bad Lieutenant said...: Sigh, not advocating that...just saying as hypo it would expose BS.; 4/7/15, 11:31 AM
Anonymous said...: Roger Sweeney: But a significant number of people are so strong in the conviction that they are willing to undergo what seem to me ridiculous amounts of surgery, hormone treatment, and kicking over of a long, past life--which may include a spouse and children.

There's no good way to deal with this. God (or random nature) can be very cruel.

We won't figure out a good way to deal with it if we don't understand the real nature of the disorder.

You seem to be taking what the "transgendered" say about the nature of their condition at face value - that is, that nature screwed up and put the brain of one sex in the body of another.

Why? Is there any solid evidence, for example, that all or just many of the galumphing Jethros in drag being paraded before us these days actually do have feminized brains?

There are such things as natural "intersexuals" (what used to be called hermaphrodites), as well XY males who are very feminized and masculinized XX females. But these conditions have known, identifiable hormonal/developmental causes. Some subset of these people may no doubt wish to "change sex" with surgery and hormone treatments. But what percentage of people identifying as "transgendered" really fall into those categories?

Sure looks to me that for a lot of these people (the men, anyway) their "gender dysphoria" is a mental disorder that has its roots in something other than the developmental aberrations noted above. Compare the appearance and behavior of a graceful and feminine "ladyboy" to the activist trannies in our faces these days. Same condition?

The latter seem to me to be a lot closer to the people who have the "tremendously strong conviction" that they are amputees whom nature has cruelly plunked into a body with four healthy limbs. In fact, they're sometimes the same people. Obviously, something is very wrong with these people. Equally obviously, insisting that the rest of us play along with their mental disorders is not the route to a solution.; 4/7/15, 4:32 PM
Roger Sweeny said...: Angelyne,

If someone is not just willing but eager to "undergo what seem to me ridiculous amounts of surgery, hormone treatment, and kicking over of a long, past life--which may include a spouse and children"--to turn their body from male to female or vice versa, that to me is pretty solid evidence that they really, really, really think they got the wrong body.

I think you actually agree with that. You are, however, saying that such a conviction, no matter how strong, is a delusion--like "the people who have the 'tremendously strong conviction' that they are amputees whom nature has cruelly plunked into a body with four healthy limbs..."

Of course, people who say they are transexual don't deny that they have the body they do. They just say it feels like the wrong one. Right now we're stuck there. Perhaps some day, we will be able to see whether various genes are turned on that are part of a "feel male" or "feel female" program; 4/8/15, 8:40 AM