April 23, 2015

"Commissioner Rob Manfred says Pete Rose will be allowed to participate in activities surrounding this summer's All-Star Game in his hometown of Cincinnati."

"Rose, baseball's career hits leader and a former Reds star player and manager, agreed to a lifetime ban from the sport in 1989 after a Major League Baseball investigation concluded he bet on his team to win while he was managing the club."

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81 comments:

Michael K said...

The guy is a baseball legend. NFL players are in prison and on trial for murder.

clint said...

Unbelievable player. And although it was against the rules, I was never entirely clear what the problem was with betting on his own team to win.

What's the legal term...

I'm not seeing the malum in se? Like I would if he was betting against his team and throwing games.

And, yeah, NFL -- how many players come out of prison and right back into a starting lineup. Michael Vick, I'm looking at you.

David said...

I voted great. Pete is an asshole, but his brand of assholity made him one of the most exciting ballplayers to watch ever.

harrogate said...

"Unbelievable player. And although it was against the rules, I was never entirely clear what the problem was with betting on his own team to win.

What's the legal term...

I'm not seeing the malum in se? Like I would if he was betting against his team and throwing games."

First let me say I believe he should be re-instated, and that this decision is a great start.

But there are big problems with managers betting on their teams to win games. For one thing, baseball season is a marathon, not a sprint. A manageer, hell-bent on winning one particular game or series or what have you, overuses his ace reliever or leaves a starter in for too long, for example, and it affects things in unexpected ways.

Nobody on the field needs to be gambling on any of the games.

That said, fully agreed that compared to problems the NFL is having these days, it's a hard sell to keep people pissed at Pete Rose.

Stephen said...

The first baby steps to his induction to the Hall of Fame. Ditto regarding Barry Bonds' conviction overturned.

Gahrie said...

I think Pete should be in the Hall of Fame. There should be a sentence on his plaque about his ban.

He should not be allowed to participate in any official activities. The biggest reason is not even his betting on baseball, although he deserved a suspension from baseball for that. His behavior while he was under investigation and afterwards however was bad enough to deserve a lifetime ban.

Gahrie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
clint said...

harrogate said...

"But there are big problems with managers betting on their teams to win games. For one thing, baseball season is a marathon, not a sprint. A manageer, hell-bent on winning one particular game or series or what have you, overuses his ace reliever or leaves a starter in for too long, for example, and it affects things in unexpected ways.

Nobody on the field needs to be gambling on any of the games."

Okay... I can see that.

Bay Area Guy said...

I do support Pete on this. He should be re-instated. Not excusing what he did, though.

Baseball dropped the hammer on Pete for a few trivial bets, and looked the other way during the entire "steroids decade" which increased the market caps of all the teams by billions. Phony, inflated numbers lead to real, inflated dollars. How did Brady Anderson hit 50 homers in 1996 as a lead-off hitter for the Orioles?

Free Pete Rose!

MadisonMan said...

By this I suspect he means he can bet on things?

PB said...

They should be banning more players. Sooner or later the rest will get the message.

Meade said...

I was there on September 11, 1985, when he broke Ty Cobb's all-time record with his 4,192nd hit. Magical.

But he did a lot of bad things. The worst was when he wept in 2010 while acknowledging that he had "disrespected baseball." Whaa? So now there IS crying in baseball?

Sorry, Pete — you were the greatest but sometimes even the greatest, for the good of the game, has to be banned forever.

harrogate said...

Meade I get your point and very respectfully disagree. But more importantly you were there when he broke Cobb's record! Damn man. That's just cool.

ganderson said...

So what of Joe Jackson, then? Associating with gamblers is bad for organized sport.
Keep pete out. I'm sure Ray Fosse would agree.

And- why is treasure Island Casino allowed to sponsor Twins' games?

MadisonMan said...

Does he have a better haircut.

Disclaimer: I grew up listening to Bob Prince. That may color my thinking on this topic.

"Get your Chicken on the Hill with Will!"

Doug said...

Rose invited gamblers into the game, which could have killed it. Not now, not ever.

Doug said...

Whether you bet on your team or against your team, when you bet with a bookie, over the long term ... you lose. And when you lose big, there is one quick way to get right with your bookie.

Not now, not ever.

LCB said...

Banning Pete from baseball was the correct action. Banning him from the hall was petty. He's too old now to coach so reinstate him so he can get in the hall before he passes.

fivewheels said...

It's worth trying to find a fantastic, in-depth article Bill James wrote in 1990 or so on the terribly flawed and biased Dowd Report. The evidence against him is really, really sketchy, in the realm of CBS' Bush/TANG story. For a long, long time I was convinced that Rose was innocent of betting on baseball, as he claimed.

His later admission throws a damper on that. And yet ... without malice, I must say I think maybe Pete isn't all that bright. People said so often for so many years: "If you'd just admit to what you did, baseball would forgive you." So he did it, and they didn't. I think he wanted to be in the Hall so bad, he got suckered into a false confession.

OK, maybe I don't think that's the likeliest version of events. But I truly do think there's a non-zero chance that happened, and maybe a 25 percent chance that happened. It wouldn't surprise me.

Meade said...

It was. It was very cool.

But I gave my tickets away for the perfect game Tom Bowning pitched in 1988. What a fool I was. If I could go back and trade the Pete ticket for the Tom ticket, I would. Two years later, Browning and Reds went wire-to-wire. Talk about magic in baseball!

This is from Wikipedia:
Browning's wife went into labor late in Game 2 of the World Series. Browning left the stadium to be with his wife at the hospital. However, as the game entered extra innings and Piniella realized his pitcher was absent, the Reds called the announcers and had them issue a statement on radio and TV asking Browning to return to the ballpark in case he had to pitch. While Browning did hear the message, he stayed with his wife. The Reds won in the 10th inning.

Man, we LOVED Tom Browning, the Nasty Boys, and all the Reds of that era. (Except for Marge. We tolerated Marge. Barely.)

khesanh0802 said...

Rose agreed to be banned. That's the way it should remain. That he was a great player is indisputable. That does not mitigate the fact that he agreed to be banned. Until they reinstate Shoeless Joe Jackson, Rose should continue to be shunned by MLB.

fivewheels said...

The other 75 percent chance would be: As with OJ, he was guilty, but they didn't have enough evidence to prove it and railroaded him.

harrogate said...

Ahhhh the nasty boys. And Eric Davis. That guy's play in centerfield while I was a college freshman, I remember telling everyone he would become the best defensive outfielder ever. Injuries wrecked him from such glory but damn he earned those injuries. Not unlike Pete, he gave everything he had on every play

traditionalguy said...

The Black Sox Scandal came close to killing off baseball forever. Therefore players and managers and gambling equals a preemptive strike death penalty. Everybody knows that.

Bobber Fleck said...

Charlie Hustle deserves the forgiveness of MLB. The guy was guilty of being human. In a world filled with guys like Adrian Peterson, Aaron Hernandez and Michael Vick they need to cut Pete some slack.

Meade said...

So true.

Dozens of games that season, I would buy cheap center field tickets because my 3 yr-old was crazy about Eric Davis and she loved to chant his name at the end of every top inning. I still have the ball he tossed us.

There's a photo in SI when the Reds were fighting to hold onto first place against the Giants. Hal Morris is going head over heels into the home dugout after a high foul pop the just above the dugout is being caught by me and my two buddies. Well, one of my buddies is actually catching the ball. But, HEY, I had my hands up and I was reaching for it!

Meade said...

Okay, back to Pete. That glorious son of a bitch.

rcocean said...

Keep Bonds and all the cheaters out of the Hall of Fame. And that goes for Rose too.

As for "this years All-star game" I don't care.

Titus said...

This is something for your predominately older men's commenters...right?

How about another gay marriage posting-that will bring em back down to earth.

tits

rcocean said...

Some say he bet against his own team. Even if he just bet on his own games, that's bad enough.

It's not like Pete Rose was poor - or that he didn't know you can't bet on baseball games when you're playing/coaching. There's no excuse for his actions.

Meade said...

All of Pete's marriages were gay. But he did not like his nipples played with. I remember reading that in his Playboy interview. What a great hitting gay weirdo he was.

The greatest hitting gay weirdo ever.

Katrina said...

"Banning Pete from baseball was the correct action. Banning him from the hall was petty."

I agree with this. Rose is an asshole, but man, was he fun to watch.

What I remember from '70's baseball: Rose making incredible plays, Earl Weaver charging out of the dugout like a miniature to scream at the ump, and that goofy pitcher for (I think) Detroit that used to talk to the baseball when he was on the mound. If he thought the ball had a run in it, he'd ask for another one.

I still love baseball, but the players seem more carefully managed these days, with their eccentricities and rough spots smoothed down.

harrogate said...

One of my favorite books I have read recently is *Game 6* by Mark Frost. He captures that 1970s baseball magic some of y'all are talking about including some glorious Rose moments.

Katrina said...

I meant to write that Earl Weaver charged out of the dugout like a miniature bull. Watching him kick dirt on an ump's shoes and get tossed from the game was great entertainment.

Katrina said...

I will look up that book, harrogate, thank you for the tip.

harrogate said...

Earl Weaver of course was playing Moneyball before Billy Beane or Michael Lewis either one were born. I fucking love the Weave. Three run homers and defense and throw strikes baby! And yell at the ump a lot .

harrogate said...

Why isn't spinelli on this thread?!

HoodlumDoodlum said...

"Agreed to a lifetime ban" seems pretty straightforward. I don't mind putting him in the Hall, the asterisk is at the very least implied.

Static Ping said...

fivewheels: That Bill James article about Rose and gambling has been highly criticized over the years. I think Bill was being sincere but I also suspect he was trying too hard to prove something that was not true.

Though with that said, I tend to agree with Bill's opinion that Pete Rose's crime - betting on his own team to win - is not the same level as throwing games. Pete has been suspended for 25 years. That seems like sufficient punishment. Of course he can NEVER EVER be allowed to have any baseball position of authority ever. He simply cannot be trusted.

The thing is over the years I keep hearing rumors that if Pete does such and such he will be reinstated but Pete refuses to do such and such. Whether that is true or not I don't know. I also hear rumors that he is still a gambler.

RecChief said...

he didn't take steroids

Mark said...

The number one rule of MLB is if you bet on baseball you are banned in perpetuity.

Rose bet on baseball. He is banned.

But at least he's alive. That's more than can be said for Bart Giamatti, whose fatal heart attack was likely caused by the stress of this incident.

Static Ping said...

Also, for your listening pleasure, I present Dan Bern's masterpiece "Gamblin' With My Love", a most interesting take on the Pete Rose saga.

Dan has an entire album of baseball songs called "Doubleheader". Recommended. Available through Amazon. (I think the version of "Gamblin' With My Love" is better on this album than the one I linked, but its all I could find.)

Bay Area Guy said...

Shoeless Joe and his more culpable cohorts THREW the World Series at the behest of notorious mobster Arnold Rothstein.

This would have killed the sport.

Pete Rose did nothing even close.

Free Pete Rose!

fivewheels said...

I've read some of the "debunkings" of James' piece. Most of them amount to nitpicking and missing the point, with the exception of a few legit corrections around the periphery.

But at the heart of it, it's still clear that the Dowd report was assembled not as an impartial investigation but a case built to support a pre-ordained conclusion. Like I said, that conclusion may have been true anyway.

But Rose's agreement to his ban from baseball isn't really proof either. Remember, he was trying to end the probes in a failed effort to hide his non-baseball-related tax crimes -- which eventually sent him to jail.

I'm just saying: We don't really know the truth.

SteveR said...

I have always thought the ban was right. Too bad there ended up being a whole way of cheaters who equally disrespected the game such that his actions seem more trivial than what Barry Bonds. et al did. I think he needs to go on with whatever he can get from people who have forgiven him but the HOF is out.

Curious George said...

Permanent ban for a very overrated player. The fucker didn't even bat .300 in a season where he played 100 games for his last 9 seasons. While playing on green painted concrete. Add the fact that he's an asshole...suck it Pete.

dwick said...

Non-news story... this information has been public since late last year.

traditionalguy said...

Rose was a competitor all of the time showing no mercy any of the time. That is the answer to those who want mercy for Rose. He understood competition has losers, and he lost, and he has no claim to mercy since he never showed any.

Lem said...

The answer is It's about time.

Bricap said...

I want to know why Pete Rose had Mario Soto pitch on three days' rest for 19 of his 36 starts in 1985.

eddie willers said...

Back in the 70's, the only way to get 50,000 people to a Braves game was when the Big Red Machine rolled in.

We respected them even while booing them.

Its a toss up to the best team in my lifetime. The Mickey Mantle Yankees or the Pete Rose Reds.

BudBrown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
caseym54 said...

The whole steroids scandal has put Rose's minor problems to rest.

It would be a travesty to put Barry Bonds in the Hall of Fame and keep Rose out.

Rose never cheated.

Texas Annie said...

I grew up in southern Ohio in the early 70s. My family had season tickets 7th row up behind the dugout at Riverfront all those years.

Concepcion, Bench, Perez, Rose, Morgan. It was a magical time. Something a daughter could share with her Dad.

Baseball, at least to me, is an emotional sport where you care about the players as they stand out there for hours. Very different from football.

So yeah, let Pete in the HOF. For my Dad.

Bob R said...

I voted "Don't know" because there wasn't a "Meh" option. Rose is one of the greatest players I ever saw and contributed a lot to the Phillies when he was there, so I'm biased toward him. Still, the Black Sox scandal gives baseball plenty of reason to punish gambling harshly.

On a related note, after Rose dies, I feel that he and Shoeless Joe should be inducted into the Hall of Fame. The Hall is less representative of the best players in baseball without them. A lifetime ban isn't a ban for the life of the HoF.

Rusty said...

#5
Don't even care what this is all about.

tim maguire said...

If it were up to the fans, Rose would make the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.

sparrow said...

Casey54m speaks for me on this one.

Unknown said...

Btw for those so holy about STEROIDZ!!! and DRUGSES!, Rose (like others of his era) was a notorious abuser of amphetamines. I'd have to dig into very old papers to find his quote TO REPORTERS about going to get some "green coffee," referring to pills. Just saying.

JSD said...

I remember a Pete Rose article way before the scandal how he loved the game so much, he would go out in the driveway at night and listen to the west coast games on the car radio. I took noted it at the time, because my uncle the bookie used to do the exact same thing. I think Pete's gambling go way back.

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MadisonMan said...

In a world filled with guys like Adrian Peterson, Aaron Hernandez and Michael Vick they need to cut Pete some slack.

"Mr. Rose, we're inducting you because other people in this world did worse things, like killing dogs and people"

Great reasoning.

tim in vermont said...

I answered that I don't get what it is about even though I know exactly what it is about, I just don't get why people care.

tim in vermont said...

I think that a lot of people who wish they could play MLB worship Rose because he played like they dreamed that they would play as limited talent schlubs. That they could make up for lack of talent with hustle. Every couch athlete's fantasy. Why is it that some skinny 18 y-o kid can slap a ball over the green monster against major league pitching, then he doesn't care enough to play hard after a couple of years?

Gusty Winds said...

Pete Rose is an asshole, but still the greatest hitter of all time, which is more the crux of the game than the home run.

After living through the steroid era with Bonds, Sossa, and McGuire; Rose's sin seems small.

Although unethical, he was betting on the Reds to WIN. He wasn't throwing the games like the Black Sox.

Gusty Winds said...

Forgiveness is important. Farve's number is being retired at Lambeau this Thanksgiving.

Even after sexting photos of his penis and yellow crocs to the Jet's front office girl while his wife was sick, and playing for the hated Vikings, he was a big part of the Packers.

Farve was a great Quarterback. Fun to watch, and heartbreaking when his risk taking failed.

But he is still, deep down, just a redneck.

Meade said...

Shunned, unforgiven, made an example of, and banned for life. Yes, I'm talking about Bill Clinton. But I'm also talking about Pete Rose.

Eye on the ball, folks. It's about the office (the game), not the charming needy greedy manipulating talented individual.

JSD said...

“Although unethical, he was betting on the Reds to WIN. He wasn't throwing the games like the Black Sox.”

Rose should be in the HOF. But any bookie handling Rose’s action would factor in the information. On nights that Rose declined to wager, that would also be information. Sports gambling in pre-internet days was done through a very “organized” association. A bookie in Cincinnati with too much action on the Reds had to layoff to a bookie in California with too much Dodger action. This was facilitated through the “organized” part of the industry. My uncle made a pretty good living as a bookie.

Ann Althouse said...

"Shunned, unforgiven, made an example of, and banned for life. Yes, I'm talking about Bill Clinton. But I'm also talking about Pete Rose."

So that's why they're bringing back Pete Rose: to help the Clintons.

Meade said...

Pete Rose : The War on Baseball : : Bill and Hillary Clinton : The War on Women

Michael said...

Yes he was a great player, and yes he was seriously wrong to bet on his team. Without arguing where the limit is, there should be some limit on retribution. Letting him participate in All-Star Game activities in Cincinnati seems reasonable. Even long-term prisoners get compassionate leave on occasion.

Meade said...

Yes he was a great [politician and two-term president], and yes he was seriously wrong to [serially sexually harass his subordinates]. Without arguing where the limit is, there should be some limit on retribution. Letting him [back into the White House by electing his wife president] seems reasonable.

dbp said...

But at least he's alive. That's more than can be said for Bart Giamatti, whose fatal heart attack was likely caused by the stress of this incident.

That and being a lifetime chain-smoker.

Johnny Sokko said...

I used to think they should induct Pete into the HOL, the day he dies.

I now think he should be allowed in the HOL but not be allowed in anything else MLB related.

mccullough said...

I'm still ambivalent about contact hitters like Rose, Gwynn, Boggs, Cobb, and Ichiro.

Their slugging percentages are really low.

There's four players in baseball history with a slugging percentage above .600: Ruth, Williams, Gehrig, and Bonds. Those were the greatest four hitters.

Pete Rose racked up a lot of hits. But he had no pop.

Bricap said...

Those who argue that it was ethical for Rose to bet to win, would you still make that claim if he bet on the 19 games in 1985 where he was pitching Soto on three days' rest?

Meade said...

Eric Davis, more about.

Unknown said...

McCullough, Ty Cobb was twitted about the home run thing and explained that it was contrary to his theories of the game. To demonstrate, iirc, he went on a home run tear, just to show he could do it if he pleased.

Iaintsayinimjustsayin

mccullough said...

Ty Cobb was a slapper who had a split grip on the bat like a kindergartner. He was not a great hitter. It's not about hitting home runs, it's about driving the ball. Only 27% of Ty Cobb's hits were for extra bases, a little bit better than Rose. Ruth was a great hitter. Cobb was not.


Shoeless Joe was the first one with a major league swing and Babe Ruth copied and improved on Shoeless Joe's swing. Williams improved on Ruth's swing and Bonds improved on Williams' swing.

Bonds' swing is the most efficient major league swing ever. It will be interesting to see who improves on it in the future.






Meade said...

" It will be interesting to see who improves on it in the future. "

I hope it won't be Ryan Braun - someone else who deserves to banned from baseball - not for using drugs, but for trying to cover up his drug use by falsely accusing the technician who handled his test samples of antisemitism. Brewers need to unload that putz.

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