Althouse: "If a man and a woman are equally drunk, should he be found guilty of assaulting her because she was too intoxicated to agree to sex, even though he himself may have been too drunk to know that?"

February 8, 2015

"If a man and a woman are equally drunk, should he be found guilty of assaulting her because she was too intoxicated to agree to sex, even though he himself may have been too drunk to know that?"

A question asked by Judith Shulevitz in a NYT op-ed titled "The Best Way to Address Campus Rape."

I think there is something very wrong with that question, because — for all its effort at equality — it's got an unacknowledged double standard. Shulevitz doesn't even notice her failure to ask: If a man and a woman are equally drunk, should she be found guilty of assaulting him because he was too intoxicated to agree to sex, even though she herself may have been too drunk to know that?

86 comments:

Swifty Quick said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/8/15, 7:28 PM
buwaya said...: Well, yes, but better baby steps than no progress on this matter.
Personal experience - women are far more likely to take personal liberties ("sexual assault", in some places) than are men, when drunk.; 2/8/15, 7:29 PM
Laslo Spatula said...: Worst thing possible for a man, rape-wise, is to have been raped by Helen Keller. Like anyone would EVER believe you.

And her using 'water' as a so-called 'safe word': just not fair.

I am Laslo.; 2/8/15, 7:32 PM
s'opihjerdt said...: A woman goes to a bar...She drinks...She awakens in the morning next to a man:

A: naked in her bed.

Or

B: Dead in the passenger seat of her car.

Is she responsible for her actions?; 2/8/15, 7:33 PM
Fernandinande said...: I think there is something very wrong with that question, because —

It's the NYT.

Shulevitz doesn't even notice her failure to ask:

It's too obvious to not notice; she omits it because the readers aren't supposed to think of it as a reasonable possibility.; 2/8/15, 7:35 PM
Anonymous said...: If you start with the idea that one cannot voluntarily become intoxicated, and then use that as a defense to say one lacked the requisite state of mind to commit a crime, then they might both be guilty of some type of assault. Of course, you might start with that standard and soften it to say that if one is so intoxicated as to lack the capacity to consent to sex, then one cannot be guilty of this type of assault.

Otherwise you kind of get stuck with the position that if a sober person has sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, it is an assault -- maybe a very serious kind, like rape -- but otherwise one can use the "But Officer, I was stoned at the time" defense.

I've often though the type of situation raised in the piece would be a good hypothetical about two students, "Lynn" and "Chris" who get drunk, have sex, and regret it; and that the idea would be not to reveal their genders (or even if they were of different genders).; 2/8/15, 7:37 PM
Saint Croix said...: Rape has always been a violent crime. Feminists have been fighting for years to eliminate the "force" element in rape statutes. They did this in order to make rape easier to prove. But I don't believe they intended to change the very nature of rape so that it is a non-violent crime. Because these hypotheticals, with two drunk people, are absurd.; 2/8/15, 7:43 PM
campy said...: Ask the second version of the question and NYT readers will hurt themselves laughing too hard.; 2/8/15, 7:50 PM
traditionalguy said...: We are close to a solution here . Airlines have black boxes. Women need vagina implants that monitor their speed, height, motion and reaction to the men that fly them while drunk.

To be fair the male penis will need an implant doing the same measurements including length and hardness of course

All we have to work out is getting the drunks through metal detectors. This will be to College Fraternities what birth control pills were 50 years ago.; 2/8/15, 7:58 PM
Tarrou said...: Nonsense! Only men can be guilty of sexual assault, because equality!; 2/8/15, 8:02 PM
Michael K said...: This is where the term "Coyote Ugly" came from. He wakes up and finds a women in his bed who is so ugly he will gnaw his arm off rather than wake her up.

I think the woman's name was "Rosie."; 2/8/15, 8:10 PM
Rob said...: Exactly right, Ann. To start with, if the boy is drunk and the woman isn't, then she should be guilty of sexual assault, because he couldn't give informed consent. If they're both drunk, it's not a matter of degree. Either they're both guilty of rape or neither of them is.; 2/8/15, 8:20 PM
Big Mike said...: If the guy was really drunk, how'd he get and maintain his erection?; 2/8/15, 8:32 PM
Sebastian said...: "Shulevitz doesn't even notice . . ."

I do appreciate these unveilings of unexamined assumptions, I do, but one could say this about most NYT articles.; 2/8/15, 8:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Laslo:

I thought there was some kind of rule on the interweb that the first one who makes a Helen Keller joke is acting just like Hitler.; 2/8/15, 8:46 PM
MadisonMan said...: how'd he get and maintain his erection?

An ED drug?; 2/8/15, 8:47 PM
FullMoon said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/8/15, 8:50 PM
Paul said...: They are both guilty of making whoopie while drunk.

Not a criminal offence but it's one that can make babies.; 2/8/15, 8:57 PM
Left Bank of the Charles said...: Charge them both with assault, as two drunk brawlers would be. And expel them both from college. Title IX demands it.; 2/8/15, 9:11 PM
Abdul Abulbul Amir said...: Why is she not guilty of sexually assaulting him?; 2/8/15, 9:13 PM
LYNNDH said...: We Men all know that between the ages of 16 or so and 20 something we go around with an erection almost constantly. Those commercials for ED drugs and the warning about too long a time with an erection doesn't apply to young men.
Of course being 68 now the memories are only in my mind.; 2/8/15, 9:21 PM
madAsHell said...: "Equally drunk"...and who will judge that!!; 2/8/15, 9:24 PM
CWJ said...: The once fairly clear concepts just keep getting blurryer and blurryer, and that ambiguity allows the nonsense masquerading as serious thought to seep in.

Watching the Grammys tonight I was treated to President Obama lecturing that 1 in 5 women was a victim of rape or attempted rape and 1 in 4 was a victim of domestic violence (note 1 in 5 coeds have now become women and "sexual assualt" has morphed into "rape or attempted rape"). If true, what an absurdly violent country we would have had to become. But of course these statistics aren't true in any recognizable sense because the words have been shorn of their meaning.; 2/8/15, 9:33 PM
n.n said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/8/15, 9:41 PM
n.n said...: It's a religion with a distinctly matriarchal prejudice.

That said, the issue is not what happened while both parties were incapacitated, but rather the path each followed to reach that dysfunctional state. The State establishment of a legal code, moral philosophy, or religion will determine what will be normalized, tolerated, and rejected, and the means by which each will be realized.

So much for the separation of Church and State. It was never a practical expectation, other than through semantic games, fairy tales, and unacknowledged faith.; 2/8/15, 9:42 PM
RecChief said...: hmm, a question from noted feminist Althouse.

Since we're asking questions about feminism and the "patriarchy", any thoughts on the woman who aborted her child because he was a boy? And would do it again if she were pregnant with another boy? Do you need a link to the story?; 2/8/15, 9:42 PM
dreams said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/8/15, 9:43 PM
Gahrie said...: I was treated to President Obama lecturing that 1 in 5 women was a victim of rape or attempted rape and 1 in 4 was a victim of domestic violence

If you want to see some startling and true statistics about rape, go to the Department of Justice and examine the racial breakdown of rape. (It won't be easy..); 2/8/15, 9:46 PM
Gahrie said...: any thoughts on the woman who aborted her child because he was a boy?

Her reasons don't really matter. Most of those on my side believe that no reason can justify abortion, and most of those on the other side believe any, or even no, reason justifies abortion. I think her actions are horrendous, pro-choicers just shrug their shoulders.; 2/8/15, 9:49 PM
RecChief said...: Gahrie said...
any thoughts on the woman who aborted her child because he was a boy?

Her reasons don't really matter. Most of those on my side believe that no reason can justify abortion, and most of those on the other side believe any, or even no, reason justifies abortion. I think her actions are horrendous, pro-choicers just shrug their shoulders.

Actually, I want to hear from a feminist whether or not this is acceptable. From an adherent of the Roe decision, if everything is hunky dory that this woman aborted the child simply because he has a penis. And that was the only reason. According to the woman, she aborted him because he might someday grow up to be part of the "patriarchy". It's banal. It would also be interesting to hear the rationale why feminists think it's ok. Because I've been told that aborting babies in China simply because they're girls is evil. I guess the subject is just not interesting. At least not as interesting as the hypothetical situation where two drunk people have sex, which can be called the rapist.; 2/8/15, 9:59 PM
Mary Beth said...: Ms. Sulkowicz’s supporters and some bloggers denounced The Daily Beast for conducting a trial by media....

Who wants a trial by media when you can have a condemnation by art project?

*****
I am glad I clicked through to the article. I'd started listening to Bill Bryson's One Summer: America, 1927 and he was talking about a pilot named Charles Nungesser. I knew I had seen that last name somewhere and it was bothering me that I couldn't remember where.; 2/8/15, 10:21 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: Women and children should held to a lower standard of accountability than men.; 2/8/15, 10:55 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: If a man agrees nearly 67 Angels on the pin's head, and a woman declaims precisely the same, whom shall determine accuracy?; 2/8/15, 10:59 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: As previous tax-knowledge aka University spendations yeilded nothing as substantial as Norman Bourlag, we must treble -down on University oversight.

Regulations must supercede any oversight.

All oversight is and will be left to my Kochs.; 2/8/15, 11:09 PM
chillblaine said...: "Watching the Grammys tonight I was treated to President Obama lecturing..."

Obama is trolling. What is the exact definition of attempted rape? I think a catcall now fits the definition.; 2/8/15, 11:44 PM
Gahrie said...: I've been told that aborting babies in China simply because they're girls is evil.

This case is entirely different. In the case of China, women are being coerced by the Patriarchy into killing their little girls. In the other case, the Mother was not only saving the male fetus from a life as a Patriarchal oppressor, she was also protecting all of the women he would have oppressed during his lifetime.

They really are quite different situations indeed.; 2/8/15, 11:57 PM
chickelit said...: There's always room for Jello!; 2/9/15, 12:16 AM
n.n said...: RecChief, Gahrie:

The Chinese should be credited for at least acknowledging that abortion terminates a human life, hence the "one-child policy". Whereas in America, people have found comfort in a fairy tale (i.e. spontaneous conception), faith (e.g. variable value), rationalization (e.g. pain capable), and diverse euphemisms, including: clump of cells, fetus, etc. While the Chinese are mass murders, they are at least honest about their motives and outcome.

Personally, I think a suitable religion or moral philosophy for women and men capable of self-moderating, responsible behavior is preferable. The Chinese and American pro-aborts are arguing that women and men are, in fact, incapable of adult behavior and responsibility and thereby are passive members of sacrificial cult.

That said, I think exploiting the morally ambiguous rape loophole represents progress in pro-choice policy. There are few people who will reconcile the mother's dignity and the child's intrinsic value (and innocence) to favor the latter's life. The incidence of involuntary exploitation obviously and perhaps irreparably clouds people's judgment and, frankly, my own.

Still, the nature of offenses does not change. The mother is the first victim of involuntary exploitation, and the child will be the second victim of involuntary exploitation. The State establishment of religion and popular culture combine to normalize something quite depraved.; 2/9/15, 1:22 AM
Aussie Pundit said...: Science has changed the rules.

We have viagra and similar medications now, so the man longer has to be 'excited' or willing.

If a woman slips a man some viagra (in a drink, for example), it is entirely possible for her to have sex with him without his consent.

The whole snickering "how can it be assault if he was hard" dismissal of woman-on-man sex assault was rendered null and void by the invention of male erectile pharmaceuticals.; 2/9/15, 4:43 AM
Aussie Pundit said...: A woman goes to a bar...She drinks...She awakens in the morning next to a man:

A: naked in her bed.
Or
B: Dead in the passenger seat of her car.

Is she responsible for her actions?
brilliant.

I'd add to that that if she drives while drunk and gets caught, she is considered responsible for her actions.

So how come she can be responsible for driving a car, but not for having sex?

Makes no sense. If you can't make rational decisions while drunk, you surely can't be blamed for driving a car in that state. You were drunk! You didn't know what was happening!; 2/9/15, 4:53 AM
rhhardin said...: Tradionally a guy getting sex is getting lucky, not getting raped.

That was before it was decided that the two sexes are the same, so what applied to women must apply to men, in order not to disturb the system.; 2/9/15, 4:57 AM
tim in vermont said...: So a man's dick is the measure of his competence? If a drunk driver can get an erection, does he get off?(Leave it alone Laslo)

What about if both are high?

I am glad this post has an "unsaid things" tag, because the unsaid thing is that man and women are not the same. Women are special snowflakes. The fundamental dishonesty of feminism will not allow that to be written into the law.; 2/9/15, 5:36 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "If the guy was really drunk, how'd he get and maintain his erection?"

Not all forms of sex that can be an assault involve the penis going into the vagina (or anus). An object can be used, hands and fingers are used, there is oral sex, and all kinds of kissing and groping are also sexual assaults when they are not consented to. Even if you want to use the word "rape" and limit it to penetration, there's still attempted rape.; 2/9/15, 6:07 AM
Ann Althouse said...: This reduction of the man to his penis and the test of his mind by its condition should be seen as unequal treatment of men. If similar things were said about women, there would be outrage. But it's regarded almost as a joke.; 2/9/15, 6:10 AM
iowan2 said...: The 'experts' are going to have to explain to me exactly what the motivation for rape is. I have been told for the last 5 decades that rape was a violent crime carried out with violence and the desire to control and harm the victim. NOT sexual.

So which is it?

In short. I've stopped caring and have no empathy for any women claiming to be rapped.

Those women can thank their feminist sisters for alienating anyone who at one time cared, and used to be motivated to act in there behalf to aide and comfort them in their time of crisis. No more.; 2/9/15, 6:21 AM
rhhardin said...: This reduction of the man to his penis and the test of his mind by its condition should be seen as unequal treatment of men. If similar things were said about women, there would be outrage. But it's regarded almost as a joke.

That's because men are not the same as women.

Men get the joke. Their minds don't work like women's.; 2/9/15, 6:28 AM
tds said...: If alcohol didn't exist, ugly chicks wouldn't have a chance.; 2/9/15, 6:29 AM
rhhardin said...: Approximate dialogue from not very good romantic comedy, nice but loser character to female lead

Guy: What do women want? First it's this and then not this, [list of contrary things]

Women: I could tell you, but it's a secret.

Guy: What is it?

Women: We don't know what we want.; 2/9/15, 6:32 AM
rhhardin said...: Romantic comedy rule: any plot line with any characters going to Ireland is going to make no sense.

This comes up all over.; 2/9/15, 6:36 AM
Ann Althouse said...: @rh

Do you joke about prison rape too?

You are part of a culture that makes it difficult for a man to report abuse. But men are raped.

Maybe the joking works because there is anxiety underneath.; 2/9/15, 7:01 AM
tim in vermont said...: Maybe the joking works because there is anxiety underneath.

I assure you that the vast majority of men not confined to a situation like prison or being cabin boy on a man o' war do not carry anxiety over being raped.

It is a joke because the consent rules are ridiculous. They are laughable, ripe for satire and mockery. Fraught with humor, as it were.

Would anybody say that if a women got wet during rape, that she had consented? No!! The humor comes from the unsayability that men and women are different. The comic stubbornness to admit any difference between men and women.

I bet you the vast majority of the med ridiculing this idea believe that men and women are different. That because of that fact, women should not get drunk at frat parties, for one thing. Even that statement is considered sexist. Think of that. How can one not satirize that?; 2/9/15, 7:13 AM
Xmas said...: Yes, let's not go by sexual organ response, because that path leads to nothing but trouble for female rape victims.

(Not enough studies, but the range is somewhere between 5 and 50% of rape victims have an orgasm during the act).

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/science-arousal-during-rape; 2/9/15, 7:15 AM
Tom said...: In college, we called these drunk girls "grabby" or "gropey". I don't think we ever considered it sexual assault when one of these girls repeatedly tried to kiss us or grab us. I can think of three occasions where a drunk girl peed my bed and I was thankfully on the couch because she was too drunk and I didn't want anything to happen. But if sexual assault is getting reduced to a level that includes drunk, grabby girls, then the number of sexual assaults is going to sky-rocket.; 2/9/15, 7:15 AM
rhhardin said...: Prison rape jokes are a staple on Imus when somebody famous gets convicted.; 2/9/15, 7:22 AM
rhhardin said...: It's not anxiety but a plain difference between men and women.; 2/9/15, 7:24 AM
RigelDog said...: Exactly what I thought. It's only a half-fleshed-out standard that still manages to completely absolve the woman of misconduct in any intoxicated man/woman sexual encounter. No one ever asks these people the logical follow-up questions, or points out their hetero-normative assumptions. Such as, what's the "test" when two women who have had a few drinks get naked together?; 2/9/15, 7:27 AM
tim in vermont said...: @rh,
Are you writing a Rom Com? I always wanted to do that.; 2/9/15, 7:28 AM
Larry J said...: Big Mike said...
If the guy was really drunk, how'd he get and maintain his erection?

You're talking about college aged guys. They can get hard seeing the crack of dawn (not that they're often awake that early).; 2/9/15, 7:33 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Would anybody say that if a women got wet during rape, that she had consented? No!! The humor comes from the unsayability that men and women are different. The comic stubbornness to admit any difference between men and women."

There may be bell curves here, but there are still many sexually aggressive and physically dominant women and sexually compliant and physically restrained men. To act like the men are all one way and the women are all another way is to intimidate the men who don't fit your norm into not identifying themselves when they are abused and to allow abusive women to get away with it.

You are pre-ridiculing any man who reports sexual abuse, so if the standard of behavior on campus is rigorous, then only the woman is likely to report. How is a man who gets caught up in drunken sex supposed to protect himself from unfair accusations?; 2/9/15, 7:33 AM
rhhardin said...: Are you writing a Rom Com? I always wanted to do that.

I'm just looking for entertaining dialogue on the topic of sexual difference.

Stanley Cavell does interesting analysis on remarriage comedy films, and here we have easily available $5.00 romantic comedies today to check out.; 2/9/15, 7:35 AM
rhhardin said...: To act like the men are all one way and the women are all another way is to intimidate the men who don't fit your norm into not identifying themselves when they are abused and to allow abusive women to get away with it.

Think of it as penised and unpenised genders.; 2/9/15, 7:40 AM
rhhardin said...: The Hugh Grant speech near the end of Two Weeks Notice, to win Sandra Bullock back, is an excellent one for how men want to feel and how women want them to feel.; 2/9/15, 7:42 AM
tim in vermont said...: sexually compliant and physically restrained men.

We all have our ways of getting laid.; 2/9/15, 7:50 AM
tim in vermont said...: I honestly don't believe that a woman can understand in any deep sense how a man feels about sex. Our biological imperatives are just too different.; 2/9/15, 8:00 AM
tim in vermont said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/9/15, 8:08 AM
jr565 said...: If date rape is "rape", Men are raped by women all the time. However, many men don't take it to heart like women do. Because it's still sex after all.; 2/9/15, 8:10 AM
jr565 said...: I should clariy that by saying if men are date raped by women (assuming they are heterosexual).; 2/9/15, 8:13 AM
DrMaturin said...: People have been having sex while drunk since approximately the beginning of time. In fact, I'll bet that many of the commenters here have done this and may have even been conceived via it. It is normal and natural, provided there is no coercion, and simply being drunk doesn't mean you were coerced. The act of having sex while drunk has never been considered a crime until now. Our society is losing it's mind.; 2/9/15, 8:33 AM
tim in vermont said...: Can't remember where I read it, but I have read that choosing the fruit that has naturally fermented is a primate behavior that likely pre-dates our evolution into Homo Sapiens.

But feminists are Creationists who don't believe in evolution. Another of the things that makes the whole enterprise of radical feminism so risible. (Sorry, running out of synonyms for ridiculous.); 2/9/15, 8:44 AM
khesanh0802 said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/9/15, 9:32 AM
n.n said...: Perhaps men and women, boys and girls, should avoid sexual relations until they commit, then avoid drinking to inebriation, and other psychoactive drugs (e.g. marijuana). Probably not. The State established religion and its popular culture companion does not tolerate mature adults, and, in fact, promotes infantile behaviors.; 2/9/15, 9:40 AM
n.n said...: tim in vermont:

Evolutionary or divine creationism? Both are articles of faith. The scientific domain is actually very limited in time and space, constrained by deductive reasoning, observation, and reproduction or scientific method. Neither evolutionary (i.e. chaotic change) creation nor divine creation can be discovered in the scientific domain. They are both in the faith domain. Not even philosophical (i.e. awaiting advances in knowledge and skill).

People have really run amuck (e.g. liberal assumptions of uniformity, independence, monotonic change) since the anthropomorphization of the evolutionary process and corruption of science for political leverage.; 2/9/15, 9:50 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: My first thoughts involve mattress girl. Having read some of the social media things that she said over the subsequent months, it looks like she was pretty needy. And, really wanted to take their relationship from friends to lovers, and that, I think, was part of why they had sex. No surprise really that many months later, after that stratagem had failed, that she was willing to term what he had done "rape". Seems definitely to fit the spurned lover scenario. Realistically, who would want someone so needy and clingy at that age? Probably not surprising that he has another girlfriend, much more serious this time, who is standing by him, and that mattress seems to be scaring off the guys for her.

Let me add, having talked about campus rape with some recent coeds, that this sort of thing is not unusual. One young lady brought up that a couple of her sorority sisters gave up their virginity in just this play, and were bitter afterwords. This was why this young lady was so adamant about campus "rape". Never mind that this isn't how guys think, esp. at that age.; 2/9/15, 10:14 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: My next thought is about alcohol usage. On a lot of campuses these days, the undergraduates, and esp. the younger ones, often tend to get blotto drunk. This isn't a case of the boys sneaking alcohol to the girls, and the girls being innocent bystanders, but rather, both sexes getting legally drunk in the afternoons before getting anywhere near the opposite sex, where they then proceed to get blotto after they get together. We are often talking alcohol poisoning, etc. levels of alcohol in their blood, with "transports" to the hospital, etc. as a routine occurrence on Fri. and Sat. nights.

Why that level of alcohol usage (often 2-3 times the legal limit for driving)? One big reason is that alcohol acts as a social lubricant. The usual dynamic is at play - the girls want boys, and the boys want to get laid. There was a saying in college that the girls wanted to be close to have sex, and the guys got close after (enough) sex. The level of intoxication appears to be somewhat equivalent between the two, with the boys drinking a bit more, but not that much, which compensates for their added weight. And, yes, the girls tend to drink shooters and mixed drinks, while the boys sometimes tend towards beer.

Why do the young women drink in order to have sex with guys in order to hopefully snag them? Part of that, even today, is probably that a female's worth decreases with the number of males that she sleeps with. Which is tied into "slut shaming". It has always been this way, and it is closely related to male fears of raising children as their own that aren't. Yes, we now have DNA testing, but that doesn't really impact tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of years of evolution. In any case, if a female has sex with multiple guys, she is seen as a slut, unless she was too drunk to know better, and then she is only a drunk.

The national statistics show that real rape is pretty rare in this country, and is even rarer on college campuses. There, real rapes can be mostly avoided by being reasonably cautious. When I was in college, the fraternities offered late night escort services to the coeds, and that still happens. But, in order to avoid most of the usual style campus "sexual assaults", all women really need to do is not drink (or limit themselves to one or two) around the opposite sex, and to keep out of compromising situations, such as sleeping in the same bed as a male, unless they are willing to have sex with them that night. Simple, effective, and verboten to mention these days in politically correct conversations.; 2/9/15, 10:36 AM
Trashhauler said...: It almost seems that the desired outcome is a society in which men must tread very lightly because their guilt depends upon the feelings of the women they encounter. Women are apparently not responsible, except in any decision involving their own bodies. At the same time, women are capable of replacing men anywhere, because equality. Feminism begins to sound like Neo-Victorianism; 2/9/15, 11:29 AM
tim in vermont said...: @n.n,
My only point re Creationism is that most, if not all radical feminists would reject the label, yet they seem to believe that a cosmic fairness exists between the sexes.

One would have to posit God for that to make any sense at all.; 2/9/15, 12:56 PM
n.n said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/9/15, 3:07 PM
n.n said...: tim in vermont:

Not since God walked with us, did he offer women and men a material comfort. Both Nature and God have made the woman's burden and responsibility difficult. Perhaps that's why it's the man's burden and responsibility to lead and sacrifice.

There is, or was, an equalizing juxtaposition that arose from the duality of women and men in nature, religion, and society. We are entering new territory, where it is now "women", "men", and children first in that order. People should have demanded that the qualify "progress".; 2/9/15, 3:12 PM
tim in vermont said...: I used to be a Nihilist, now I don't even believe in that anymore.; 2/9/15, 4:31 PM
RecChief said...: Ann Althouse said...
@rh

Do you joke about prison rape too?

You are part of a culture that makes it difficult for a man to report abuse. But men are raped.

Maybe the joking works because there is anxiety underneath.

This is the argument you make? It's in the same vein as "you must be a gay basher because you're secretly afraid you're gay". About one would expect to hear from a freshman psychology or sociology who grew up in a liberal cloister. This is the kind of argument a tenured law professor makes? I think if I was a law student at UW, I'd ask for my tuition back. The sad part is that they learn this is acceptable and go away thinking it's intelligent reasoning.; 2/9/15, 5:14 PM
n.n said...: tim in vermont:

So, you are neutral, a blank slate. This is the time for introspection. An opportunity to identify axiomatic beliefs. We all have them. They develop with time and perhaps reflect something intrinsic to our individual nature. They are usually suppressed or obfuscated by prevailing beliefs or duties. Good luck!; 2/9/15, 5:16 PM
autothreads said...: If intoxication means that you can't form consent, than it should equally mean that you can't form intent.

As for double standards, a few years back there was a sex scandal at a high school in an affluent suburb. It seems as though some senior boys were having sex with freshmen girls eager to move up the social ladder. The prosecutors said that they weren't charging the boys who weren't yet legal adults with statutory rape because they couldn't do that without charging the underage girls who had sex with underage boys.; 2/9/15, 5:42 PM
tim in vermont said...: @n.n.

I am glad you understood the meaning of my comment. ;); 2/9/15, 6:49 PM
Nate Whilk said...: tim in vermont said... I honestly don't believe that a woman can understand in any deep sense how a man feels about sex. Our biological imperatives are just too different.

Women who receive testosterone for medical reasons and female-to-male transsexuals have partial insight. Their sex drive goes up.

rhhardin said... Approximate dialogue from not very good romantic comedy, nice but loser character to female lead

Guy: What do women want? First it's this and then not this, [list of contrary things]

In the October 1979 (Comedy) issue of National Lampoon, there was this installment of Foto Funnies:

(man and woman sitting up in bed)

woman: Y'know what I dig in a man? Tenderness...and lots of strength! I want a guy who's gorgeous, but not stuck up about it. Have lots of money but not be tight with it...

man: (looks puzzled and rolls eyes during her spiel)

woman: I want him to be intellectual, but rugged! Manly and protective, but lets me do whatever I want. Sweet and romantic but tough. Lets me know his feelings but doesn't tell me anything I don't want to hear....

man: Hey, you find a guy like that and *I'll* fuck him!; 2/9/15, 9:47 PM
Micha Elyi said...: "What is the exact definition of attempted rape? I think a catcall now fits the definition."
--chillblaine (11:44 PM)

You are soooo behind the times. Rummage the feminist literature of the 1960s and early '70s (over 40 years ago) for the term "mini-rape". That's right, when the male gaze rests upon a female, that's a "rape!". A mini-rape.; 2/10/15, 1:33 AM
Darcy said...: tradguy's comment got a mention at Ace of Spades!; 2/11/15, 8:59 AM