“In ‘Into the Woods,’ ” Fey said, “Cinderella runs from her prince, Rapunzel is thrown from a tower for her prince, and Sleeping Beauty just thought she was getting coffee with Bill Cosby.” She and Poehler then took turns with their impressions of Cosby saying “I put the pills in the people . . . ” (Anyone can do a Cosby impression; anyone who remembers Cosby’s Jell-O Pudding Pops ads.) It was not the sharpened moment of post-feminist commentary that, fairly or otherwise, so many of us look for from the duo.I don't know what "sharpened moments of post-feminist commentary" are. That writing is from WaPo TV critic Hank Stuever. I don't know how to sharpen a moment, and I don't know when Tina Fey was supposed to have passed the segment of time that is feminism into the period that lies beyond feminism — post-feminism — but I do know that if you're going to make a rape joke, you'd better figure out why you are doing it and whether you've got a good enough reason and a good enough joke.
Rape was the topic chosen by George Carlin for his "I believe you can joke about anything" monologue. (Previously discussed in last summer's post: "There's a gray area of rape, and I call it 'grape.'")
Is the fact that you can do a Cosby impression — when, per Stuever, anyone can — a good enough reason? No. But there's more: Fey's female. That might give an extra layer of protection. The ultimate justification is: Comedians should take hard shots at the powerful, and that's what this is.
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78 comments:
What?
No Roman Polanski jokes about anal sex with drugged children?
One reason I still respect Fey and Pohler is that they both understand that there's more to being a female comedian than satisfying some people's unrelenting demand for "sharpened moments of post-feminist comedy".
Why were you bothering to watch the Golden Globes? Didn't you have something better to do like say, polishing the snow shovel and giving it a coat of was to make shoveling the driveway easier?
I, like the professor, don't know what the hell "sharpened moments of post-feminist commentary" are.
I do know that the phrase itself is pretentious and that Fey is not.
I may not agree with Fey politically, but she is funny and pretentious isn't funny.
I'm with AA on this. I'm not sure what the WaPo TV critic is talking about with the post-feminist comment, but I didn't find the joke all that funny or biting. I was looking for more from Fey and Pohler on the subject. I had read where there was likely to be a Cosby joke or two in the days leading up to the show, and was looking forward to what they'd come up with. I'm sure it's a subjective thing, but I was disappointed with the effort.
It had nothing to do with a joke about rape being in poor taste or offensive. I'm a fan of all kinds of humor as well as some of the most "offensive" comics. As an aside, this joke by Anthony Jeselnik is one of my current favorites https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ynJZXMbICQ and very much related to the subject of what you "can" and "can't" make a joke about.
I just thought they could have done more with it. Made me long for a return of former Globes host Ricky Gervais.
If they wanted to talk truth to power, I'd've picked the guy who we know did something wrong instead of the guy we all assume did, but can't prove.
Like, what's his name? Epstein? Semi-Retired comedians aren't exactly "powerful."
That might give an extra layer of protection.
As long as that layer is not disapprovingly tainted.
I, like the professor, don't know what the hell "sharpened moments of post-feminist commentary" are.
The test is to look into the audience at Lena Dunham. If she looks like she has to pee, then non. If it looks like her team just scored the winning touchdown, then oui.
I'd didn't waste my time wating whatever the awards show was last night.
Since sex crimes are funny, were there any jokes about Jeffery Epstein and his pal, Bill Clinton on "pedophile island".
Spacey was a regular guest (on the isle) with the ex-pres and billionaire. He might have winked and said something witty about it.
He could have brought the house down with that kind of side slapper!
Lena Dunham laughing at a rape "joke" last night
"Why were you bothering to watch the Golden Globes?"
Did I say I was? I was just skimming the topics in The Washington Post.
We watched 2 football games yesterday. I didn't even watch my recordings of the Sunday morning bullshit shows, which I'd normally do. Too much TV. But even if I hadn't gotten OD'd on TV before nighttime, I couldn't have put up with the glossy tedium.
I'd only seen one of the movies that were up: "The Grand Budapest Hotel." That had some interesting things about it, but it didn't need an award. There's something quite loathsome about Hollywood giving itself prizes.
I like Parks and Rec, so I mostly ignore Amy Poehler in other things in case she irritates me.
I also ignore awards shows entirely. Sleeping Beauty, original version, pretty much is a rape story, though, so the joke fits it at least.
Joking is serious stuff.
Look at Charlie Hebdo.
The best humor is self deprecating humor.
Why no jokes about how Hollywood is so hypocritical about rape...
Enormous double standard on this. So enormous I can't stand it. Didn't watch the show, don't like those women. Hate that one person can say things another person isn't allowed to.
(Same with the 'n word')
The whole thing disgusts me.
And what's with the network cutting to Lena Dunham and the other "Girls" during the joke? "Rape joke in progress, camera 3 to Lena Dunham who says she was raped."
The "Golden Globes" was a PR thing for a small group of "Foreign" reporters. It's interesting that it seems to have gained credibility.
Rodgers played a great game on a bum leg. I wonder of this is Peyton's last season ?
Since when are rape jokes a big deal.
It's material like anything.
If rape jokes hurt women's feelings, that's just more material.
Tina Fey has been in the know on the Cosby stuff for awhile. She's been making Cosby rape jokes for years now.
It seems that with rape and other very personal issues, we step up in outrage only to step back in time and minimize what is---and might be in this case---a horrific crime. It's not just the occasion of a host warming up an audience.
People who have been raped and either watched Fey or read the comments must feel violated in a different sense.
I'm still waiting for a single shred of evidence that Bill Cosby raped anyone. If he used date rape drugs, who sold them to him? There would seem to be someone who could collaborate parts of the accusations. Silly me, holding that some one is innocent until proven guilty. How old-think is that, especially when a woman makes a charge? Aren't we supposed to automatically accept all rape allegations at face value, like the KKK did with the Scottsboro Boys case and so many others?
Larry - silly wabbit! Proof is for kids!
The only rule of comedy is that there are no rules. None of this "punch up, not down" nonsense. None of this "[blank] is never funny."
All that matters is whether the joke is funny--and as that's subjective, anything goes.
I can't say I've ever found Poehler funny, and while Fey can be funny she's vastly overrated by people who want to like her.
Here's exactly why "punch up, not down" rules are so idiotic. It presumes that the person telling the joke is what matters in determining if it's acceptable--so presumably a joke told by a homeless guy is okay and the same joke told by a millionaire is out of bounds. Chris Rock can tell certain jokes back when he was a struggling standup, but now that he's rich and famous some of those jokes are off limits.
There is of course context, and comedians can adopt personas to make the joke work, but then it gets back to what the ONLY criteria to judge a joke should be--is it funny?
Were those really joke jokes?
Ricky Gervais, his humor was too sharp and too focused.
And yeah, what about this?
"No Roman Polanski jokes about anal sex with drugged children?"
All of these people who are putting the knives in Bill Cosby are going to regret it when he comes out with no rape convictions(civil or otherwise). They just committed career suicide, the lot of them. You don't take down the King, unless you are very sure you completed the job. The king will be very vengeful in his retribution.
Some comedian long ago was doing a riff on what you can't joke about, that he'd gone to generic moron jokes and what do you know, the morons are complaining.
What no Holocaust jokes about gas chambers and mass shootings? Everything's ON THE TABLE man!
I thought they were really funny last year but I turned the channel after watching them this year, not funny to me, maybe they got warmed up later.
Sleepy Beauty isn't a real person. The only target is Bill Cosby, and he deserves it.
I in fact know a Holocaust joke.
The material being based on rejection of piety in the matter.
Seinfeld did a good Holocaust joke: everyone was aghast that he was making out with his date while in a theater playing Schindler's List.
"I'm still waiting for a single shred of evidence that Bill Cosby raped anyone."
I'm wondering when those starlets that Darryl Zanuck spent his afternoons with will come up with the rape accounts ? This was a career move in those days. Now it is rape.
Didn't watch.
Were there trigger warnings? I've been told there has to be trigger warnings.
Was it a microaggression, a miniaggression or a macroaggression? Or no aggression at all?
So hard to tell when it varies by the setting (thank God it wasn't in a law school classroom) and/or the perceived rightness of the teller.
Better to confess to reading The Washington Post than watching the Golden Globes? And why confess to "reading" when you can claim you were only "skimming"?
Bill Cosby is not "power" anymore; today he is more about nostalgia, and it is sad to see this.
As for his current troubles, I do not know what to think.
Is not the charges that Cosby would get the ladies up to his place and then feed them knock-out drops and "rape" them? Why the knock-out drops? For Hollywood "ladies" who would go to "his place" with him without a chaperone?
I would not call it a rape joke. I think they just referenced the accusations and experience people in the comedy world have known about a long time. He would call out fellow comedians for "working blue" (not appreciated by comics) and then had this reputation with women that is coming to light. Tina references Cosby a few times on her old 30 Rock show and I think while anchoring the news on SNL.
Since it was mentioned above, I think, unlike some people, if Roman Polanski was in the news, they would have gone after him, but he's not. I think Tina and Amy are fearless.
I think they went to Lena's table because Judd Apatow was there and he has been relentless on Cosby (he knows the comedy world and his rep too).
If you don't know the difference between consenting to sleep with your boss in hopes of getting ahead and being roofied against your will, there is no hope for you.
I thought rape jokes breeds 'rape culture.'
Maybe rape jokes are the new 'N' word, or the word 'bitch.' Only some people are allowed them.
The Oscars are Hollywood giving itself awards. The Golden Globes is the "foreign press" who covers Hollywood giving the awards.
I think they should have retrospective Oscar awards where they reassess the winners. You could have Kevin Costner turning over his Dances with Wolves Oscar to Scorcese for Goodfellas. Titantic forking it over to LA Confidential.
Bring some drama to the Oscars.
And if you cannot see that there is no need for "roofies," if the "ladies are ready and willing, there is no hope for you.
" Comedians should take hard shots at the powerful, and that's what this is. "
Who made this rule?
"Joking is serious stuff."
Sometimes.
"if you're going to make a rape joke, you'd better figure out why you are doing it and whether you've got a good enough reason and a good enough joke."
As rhhardin suggests, the only real risk is that the joke won't be funny, or the jokester will be dismissed as untalented, disrespectful, unserious, whatever. The "better have a good enough reason" shtick is, in its way, an effort to control the discussion, part of the "how dare you" technique so common today. That's not AA's objective (she segues immediately to Carlin's comeback), but AA is not your typical white-person, feminist observer.
My son and I watched. I thought Tina and Amy were funny, but not as funny as last year. The Clooney joke was the best one, though.
I like to see the clothes and jewelry.
I do like it when Fey/Poehler push the envelope and then the director cuts to the audience and you can see certain people grimacing, not sure if they are allowed to laugh.
the importance of the moment is that is signaled to all of America that it is OK to make rape jokes. A seminal moment in the history of free speech. Thank you, Tina and Amy.
" Comedians should take hard shots at the powerful, and that's what this is. "
Strange, I have not heard any comedians making jokes about Obama and he's quite powerful.
When rape jokes are inevitable, it's best to sit back and enjoy them........Once upon a time, Cosby was a powerful and revered figure. Some of his rape victims claimed that they kept mum about the crime because, honest to God, they didn't want to damage the reputation of such a revered figure. Well, he's not anymore, and making jokes about him is about as edgy as making fun of Sarah Palin's accent.....Tina Fey is funny. She has a pointed sense of humor, but she never points it at well known Democratic rapists.
"" Comedians should take hard shots at the powerful, and that's what this is. "
Who made this rule?"
People making rules like that are people trying to decide what is acceptable for others--or more likely, they are trying to explain their own subjective tastes.
The thing is, such rules should not exist. You can mock anyone, or anything, cruelly or in lighthearted fun, about any petty or deadly serious subject. There is no "off limits".
Imagine if the "only make fun of the powerful" rule actually applied--think how many more questions that would raise. Could a comedian then make jokes about family members, even though those family members aren't likely rich or powerful? Could a U.S. president make any joke at all (even at the Gridiron dinners), considering the president is arguably the most powerful person on earth? I suppose not.
I would file this under tweaking the powerful if Bill Cosby had any power left. Easy target, bad joke.
Is it me or are Golden Globes getting more coverage in recent years, as though they are as big as the Oscars?
Not that even the Oscars are worth paying attention to. The awards themselves are too arbitrary, and the telecasts are near unwatchable. Enough people must think otherwise, though.
This is all left inside baseball stuff. No one else is watching
Cosby gets skewered because he said things that African American "leaders" didn't want to hear. That makes him a rightist. Clinton gets a pass because Democrat.
For those of you slow on the uptake, both are alleged rapists.
In the case of Cosby's accusers, they weren't ready and willing to (if they were even propositioned to have consensual sex) have sex with Cosby. They were made unconcious.
Perhaps to help you understand, Google the Andrew Luster case. If the cops had not found the videos of his conquests(many of whom had no idea what happened to them until cops contacted them because of the drug they were slipped) he would be free today.
Of course you may say it is still the fault of the woman for being un-chaperoned in the prescence of a man not her husband, brother or father (as fatherly Cosby may be). You may.
How did Hollywood react when Roman Polanski won the Oscar for the pianist?
Didn't he drug a minor and then anally rape her? And then flee the states?
I didn't hear too many jokes about Polanksi then.
Is it me or are Golden Globes getting more coverage in recent years, as though they are as big as the Oscars?
I think the Golden Globes are more likely to reward movies you've heard of, rather than tiny little indy things like the Oscars - although I haven't paid attention to these things in some time. Also the GG's have tv (*right?), which has been better than movies for years. So maybe there is something there.
You can mock anyone, or anything, cruelly or in lighthearted fun, about any petty or deadly serious subject. There is no "off limits".
You can, but I think most people would consider it bad form to go after truly weak, the mentally ill, someone who has been in a horrible accident, etc..Of course, these may be idealistic points that have gone ot the wayside in our no-manners society these days.
"You can, but I think most people would consider it bad form to go after truly weak, the mentally ill, someone who has been in a horrible accident, etc.."
Those things are all offensive and in poor taste--but they can still be "comedy" depending on whether the joke is funny. For example, Mel Brooks got a lot of mileage out of humor about the Nazis only a couple decades removed from the Holocaust--while a lot of people considered it poor taste (and arguably it was in poor taste) he was still able to find the humor in awful things.
Of course, if you're just insulting someone (whether they're "weak" or "powerful") and the humor just isn't there, then it's just insults. My point is that nothing is off limits as a topic for humor, even if the humor is uncomfortable.
"I didn't hear too many jokes about Polanksi then."
I'm not sure there WEREN'T jokes about Polanski at the time of the Pianist--he did have his defenders (famously Whoopi "rape rape" Goldberg) but I don't think everyone has blown that off. The failure to extradite is the real outrage here--he never faced justice.
The rape culture hysteria has gotten a lot more dialed up these days. I don't know if Cosby's innocent or guilty, but I suspect a lot of the outrage over this is based on the idea that these cases were hushed up for so long.
Anonymous said...
In the case of Cosby's accusers, they weren't ready and willing to (if they were even propositioned to have consensual sex) have sex with Cosby. They were made unconcious.
Those are the allegations but they, by themselves, aren't evidence. If Cosby did drug those women, where did he get the drugs? I doubt he made them himself so he would've had to buy them from someone. Who? The legal standard is still innocent until proven guilty, not guilty based on allegations. It's a hard standard for many rape cases but legally, people have proclaimed for a long time that "it's better for a guilty man to go free than for an innocent man to go to jail." Also, the quaint myth of "equal justice under the law" means that the same standard of justice applies to men as it does to women.
"But there's more: Fey's female. That might give an extra layer of protection."
It's not simply that women have an extra layer of protection. It's also that women are lumped in with children in moral accountability in society. Women can say beyond the pale things publicly, just as children can, because society thinks it's cute, but if an adult male said it, it would be creepy (or criminal). Society doesn't take very seriously what women say... that's why they have an extra layer of protection.
"Society doesn't take very seriously what women say... that's why they have an extra layer of protection."
No, women get away with more because they're not white males. Ask Hillary.
But if they are conservatives then they get honorary white male status. Ask Condi Rice.
I'm still waiting for a single shred of evidence that Bill Cosby raped anyone.
That's rather odd. Each of his accusers are asserting that they were percipient witnesses. That doesn't mean they are credible...but it's more than a shred of evidence.
It is commonly said that humor only works if it uncovers a hidden truth in an unexpected way. Our laughter is a response to our surprised recognition of that truth.
By far, the best joke of the night was about George Clooney:
Alamuddin is a “human rights lawyer who worked on the Enron case, an adviser to Kofi Annan on Syria and was appointed to a three-person commission investigating rules of war violations in the Gaza strip. So tonight her husband is getting a lifetime achievement award.”
This is a perfect pairing with the best joke of last year's Golden Globes:
“Gravity is nominated for best film. It’s the story of how George Clooney would rather float away into space and die than spend one more minute with a woman his own age.”
- Krumhorn
If Tina fey came out against Cosby, he's probably innocent.
Of course, if you're just insulting someone (whether they're "weak" or "powerful") and the humor just isn't there
I think sometimes if you insult a particular 'weak' person, it kills the humor. Not that you can't make a joke about say Anne Frank and have it be funny, but you have to do that sort of thing deftly. You can't be insulting Anne, like you could insult say Bill Cosby. It has to be humor kind of on the fringes of the horror, if that makes any sense.
Of course, we can find humor in all sorts of awful things, but gallows humor is more about laughing through the pain than causing pain.
"I think sometimes if you insult a particular 'weak' person, it kills the humor. Not that you can't make a joke about say Anne Frank and have it be funny, but you have to do that sort of thing deftly."
The "deftness" is a key part of what makes it humor--I recall the running gag where an audience is watching a play about Anne Frank where Anne is played by a reviled actress, and at the end the audience shouts at the Nazis on stage "she's in the f*cking attic!" But there, Anne Frank herself isn't the target of the humor, but rather the actress portraying her.
Likewise, racial humor can be funny without the audience agreeing with the overt joke, but rather because it's the racial attitude itself that's being mocked. Then of course there are the jokes that you laugh at especially when you find them offensive, with the shame of laughing making it almost cathartic (such as jokes about natural disasters).
Ultimately though humor is very subjective, perhaps more so than other art forms. It's never been a true statement to say "that's not funny" when what's really meant is "I don't find that funny".
Althouse said...
I don't know what "sharpened moments of post-feminist commentary" are.
Maybe it means actually being funny?
"I think they should have retrospective Oscar awards where they reassess the winners. You could have Kevin Costner turning over his Dances with Wolves Oscar to Scorcese for Goodfellas. Titantic forking it over to LA Confidential."
They ought to do that with Nobel Peace Prizes.
Brando wrote:
I'm not sure there WEREN'T jokes about Polanski at the time of the Pianist--he did have his defenders (famously Whoopi "rape rape" Goldberg) but I don't think everyone has blown that off. The failure to extradite is the real outrage here--he never faced justice.
The rape culture hysteria has gotten a lot more dialed up these days. I don't know if Cosby's innocent or guilty, but I suspect a lot of the outrage over this is based on the idea that these cases were hushed up for so long.
Polanski did two movies after THe Pianist. The Ghost Writer and Carnage. He's not exactly starving for projects. Pierce Brosnan, Ewan Mcgregor, Kate Winslet, Jodie Foster, Christopher Waltz, John C. Reilly all starred in the movies after it was known what he did.
Shanna is right. Some versions of Sleeping Beauty are not only completely inappropriate for Disney and small, medium, and large sized children, but would be difficult to stomach for adults. Actually, it might be off limits for mainstream porn. My "favorite" version goes like this:
The Prince finds Sleeping Beauty and falls madly in love, despite the fact that (a) all he knows about her is her physical appearance and (b) she’s been sleeping for who knows how long and probably looks kinda gross and is covered in dust, though there is magic involved so maybe that’s not an issue. Prince tries to wake up Beauty and fails miserably. I neglected at the time to find a list of his efforts, so I don’t know how hard he tried. This may have been some icky nasty stuff with sharp objects and blood, or he may have gone with the light slap on the hand and then in faux disappointment declared he had tried all that was humanly possible and, golly, what a tragedy that he couldn’t go through the entire “yes means yes” protocol. Then, apparently because the obligatory “don’t do something stupid” wank does not apply to royalty, he deems his only solution to his lust, er, deep romantic true love is to rape Beauty while she is still asleep. This fails to wake her either – insert joke here – but with his eternal love satisfied well before infinity he goes home and, to the best of my knowledge, never calls or sends a fruit basket or writes a tell-all book involving a “Barrya.”
Eventually, Sleeping Beauty wakes up on her own and, much to her surprise, finds herself pregnant with twins. She manages to take this rather well. Actually how she manages to remain sane in all this is rather amazing: the jet lag, the culture shock, the rape, the pregnancy, everyone she knew is probably dead, she’s alone, and most likely any beauty products left for her have long since expired and turned into toxic goop and heck is she going out without her damn makeup. Somehow the prince and Sleeping Beauty manage to find each other – presumably without need of Maury Povich – and in true Japanese smut fashion prove that rape equals love. That or hundred-year-old pregnant women with no living family did not exactly have a lot of options in that day and age. Come to think of it that wouldn’t work well in this day and age, other than the joys of paternity suits. Unfortunately, Sleeping Beauty has to settle for being the prince’s mistress as the prince is already married. Whether he was adulterating on Beauty or not in their original consummation is unclear, but, well, its good to be the prince. As an added bonus, the wife wants Beauty and her two children dead because, well, why not? Can’t blame her: I pretty much want all the characters dead at this point myself as this story has zoomed past soap opera into unmitigated farce. You half expect dancing and singing critters to get themselves involved, which, who knows, may explain Walt Disney’s inspiration all too well.
Well, at least that is how I remember it. Could have a few facts wrong.
Anyway, fairy tales could be seriously hard core. Charles Perrault introduced the glass slipper to the Cinderella tale because it dispensed with the need for Cinderella’s sisters to cut off toes to try to fit their feet into Cinderella’s shoe. It’s surprising that the shoe fit on Cinderella’s foot given all the caked on blood. (I'll not describe the thing with the crows and the eyes. You're welcome.)
"Polanski did two movies after THe Pianist. The Ghost Writer and Carnage. He's not exactly starving for projects. Pierce Brosnan, Ewan Mcgregor, Kate Winslet, Jodie Foster, Christopher Waltz, John C. Reilly all starred in the movies after it was known what he did."
I can't explain why so many are giving Polanski a pass and not Cosby (particularly since Cosby hasn't been charged yet). Perhaps those actors weren't willing to turn down being in an "auteur's" project (though if Polanski is treated like a pariah, no one would want to be in his films even if he were an "auteur") while Cosby doesn't really do movies and has been out of TV for a while.
It could also be that many of them just don't think what Polanski did was wrong (even though his victim was well under 18, and there was force involved). Somehow the French don't (I know they think Americans are prudes, but still!). Maybe losing his wife to the Mansons got him a "get one rape free" card.
Pohler has the most awesome Target commercial outtakes. That's pretty much all I know her from.
That said, I almost gagged when they all stood and applauded their commitment to freedom of speech*. Yeah, that'll last about five minutes, when someone wants to say they're against gay marriage or that Islam has something to do with terrorism, or that it's not all whitey's fault that black people are killing each other, or. . . .
* That was about the only bit I watched. Sadly, I tuned in for the Cosby "joke".
You should check out Upright Citizen's Brigade--their Comedy Central show went 3 seasons and was good throughout. She did a pretty good job on Arrested Development, too, but UCB is where it's at. They're probably available on Amanzon, even.
Hollywood hypocrites?
Don Rickles made a successful career out of insulting everyone, rich, poor, strong, weak, everyone, didn't matter. He was never funny to me but he made a lot of money being funny to somebody.
Sleeping Beauty isn't in "Into The Woods", which destroys the premise of the joke (even assuming it would otherwise be funny, which it's not).
I am not a robot.
Comedians should take hard shots at the powerful, and that's what this is
You should send that line to Jon Stewart, the guy who replaced Leno, and SNL writers, none of whom has written an Obama joke in over 7 years.
If comedians have a rule that they have to take shots at THE most powerful, why no jokes about the Ayatollah of Iran?
When did rape become a feminist issue? Rape goes against basic chivalry (which was invented by men).
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