December 26, 2014

"Why is it assumed that atheists need to fill a void that religion somehow answers?"

"I find this column, and the many like it which the Times has published over the years, to be more than a little bit mystifying.... I feel no such void, and I rather doubt that many other atheists do, either. It has always seemed to me that the question should be reversed: why do religionists need to fill a perceived void that the rest of us don't feel? This life, this world, the values I hold, are quite sufficient for me; I feel no need to turn to some community professing belief in the supernatural to find meaning in life. I respect those who feel differently, but I do wonder why those professing belief need such an external reassurance of their own worth."

Top-rated comment at a NYT column "Religion Without God," by Stanford anthroprof T. M. Luhrmann. Let me extract from the column what I think answers the commenter's question:
[T]he British Humanist Association... sponsors a good deal of anti-religious political activity. They want to stop faith-based schools from receiving state funding and to remove the rights of Church of England bishops to sit in the House of Lords. They also perform funerals, weddings and namings. In 2011, members conducted 9,000 of these rituals.
So there are 2 (entirely divergent) needs : 1. anti-religion political activism, 2. rituals.

ADDED: I think many of the people who don't believe but want ritual in their lives simply continue to attend a traditional house of worship, perhaps keeping within the religious sect of their parents or grandparents or moving into the sect of their spouse. One might also enter a traditional place of worship that is nearby and seems beautiful in some way, perhaps because of the liturgy or the music, perhaps because of an eloquent minister and a compelling congregration.

And people with political needs also choose traditional religion without necessarily believing the metaphysical aspects. President Obama is the best example of that. As I wrote a few years ago, citing "Dreams from My Father," chapter 14:
While working as a community organizer, Obama was told that it would "help [his] mission if [he] had a church home" and that Jeremiah Wright "might be worth talking to" because "his message seemed to appeal to young people like [him]." Obama wrote that "not all of what these people [who went to Trinity] sought was strictly religious... it wasn't just Jesus they were coming home to." He was told that "if you joined the church you could help us start a community program," and he didn't want to "confess that [he] could no longer distinguish between faith and mere folly." He was, he writes, "a reluctant skeptic." Thereafter, he attends a church service and hears Wright give a sermon titled "The Audacity of Hope" (which would, of course, be the title of Obama's second book). He describes how moved he was by the service, but what moves him is the others around him as they respond to a sermon about black culture and history. He never says he felt the presence of God or accepted Jesus as his savior or anything that suggests he let go of his skepticism. Obama's own book makes him look like an agnostic (or an atheist). He respects religion because he responds to the people who believe, and he seems oriented toward leveraging the religious beliefs of the people for worldly, political ends.
Of course, if your political agenda is anti-religion, you're not going to take this path. And you're not going to get elected to much of anything.

274 comments:

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n.n said...

Original Mike:

Churches are organizations. Similar to communities, they are built around a consensus of faith, religion, tradition, and common interests.

Human consciousness, while characterized by an inordinate degree of freedom, is often overlapping and even convergent with other individuals. This may be and is often circumstantial (e.g. churches, communities). But, whether consciousness is believed to originate or is expressed, the universal consensus and observation is that it is limited.

As for which set of beliefs is right, there are two answers. One, in the scientific domain, there exist semi-stable states of indefinite periods where phenomenon is observable and reproducible. Two, in universal or extra-universal domains (e.g. pre-conception, post-mortem), there may be an existence that is not perceived by our five senses. Perhaps the spirit is an unrestricted (or less restricted) coherent energy formation, similar to our corporal form which is a coherent assembly of matter/energy but with a finite lifetime.

Who knows, really. We have very limited perception, let alone sensory information, to understand anything beyond the scientific domain, which is extremely limited in time and space. People like to entertain inferences or speculation. Even positing them as scientific. It seems best to separate science and faith, or, charitably, philosophy. Unfortunately, it is rare for people to acknowledge what they know, don't know, and are incapable of knowing. Ironically, extra-universal theists (e.g. Christians) have demonstrated a greater willingness to acknowledge articles of faith, and separate them from scientific works.

Anyway, it's your life. It's your freewill. Specify a set of criteria and judge the value or "rightness" of each faith, religion, tradition, interest for yourself. Most people expect a tangible return with varying degrees of material wealth. Most people, I expect, are discerning about the means to realize fulfillment. That is, they have a belief or axiomatic principles that recognize individual dignity and intrinsic value, which moderates their ambitions and tactics.

PackerBronco said...

Obama is an agnostic?

Why? Is he suffering from self-doubt?

ken in tx said...

Mormons are Christian in that they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. However they do not accept the traditional Christian understanding of the Trinity--that God the Father, God the Son, And God the Holy Spirit, are different manifestations of a single Godhead. Mormons are pretty close to ancient Arian Christians. Arian has nothing to do with Aryan, it has to do with a Christian missionary named Arius who taught that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were three different Gods. It was declared a heresy at the Nicene conference and the Nicene creed was written to exclude them from Christianity. Arius was assaulted at the conference by St.Nicolas--the original Santa Claus, who was jailed for disrupting an Imperial conference.

The Germanic tribe, Vandals, were Arian Christians. They gave their name to vandalism because of their habit of vandalizing Catholic churches whenever they could. They considered them heretical, as Catholics considered them to be as well.

Meade said...

Obama is an agnostic?

Why? Is he suffering from self-doubt?


Now that's a good one.

ron winkleheimer said...

"That's almost true, and it's one of the reasons I'm an atheist. I don't need to make up a god to tell me what's right or wrong."

If there is no God then there is no right or wrong. There are only actions of which you approve or disapprove. Your sense of right and wrong is merely the result of biological evolution and cultural conditioning.

And after all, who are you to tell me what is right and wrong? What privileges your concept of right and wrong over mine?

Lewis Wetzel said...

Original Mike wrote:
"I asked the same question and was told "our's is". This seemed dubious."
Self fulfilling prophecy. Of course you would join the Church you believed to be right (or vice versa). Fernandinande's father advice amounted to the same thing. He didn't think any of them were right so he joined none of them.
There are, of course, people who believe in nothing and attend a certain church out of habit or for social reasons. I hope that they aren't lying to themselves about their piety.
Barack H. Obama:
"I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Original Mike said...

"If there is no God then there is no right or wrong."

It took a lot longer than usual for this canard to show up.

JHapp said...

It would be nice to know some of the things that Steven Hawking does. Do I feel a void that I don't? You betcha. Ditto for Virgin Mary and the Saints. I am surprised so many can claim otherwise.

Lydia said...

There are, of course, people who believe in nothing and attend a certain church out of habit or for social reasons. I hope that they aren't lying to themselves about their piety.
Barack H. Obama:
"I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ."


No church for Obama again this Christmas. Gave it up after Christmas 2011.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The non-Canard version is "if there is no God right and wrong are the result of arbitrary power structures." Pagan gods weren't big on moral instruction -- not at the level of most pagan worshippers beliefs, any how. The usual result is "might makes right" morality.

walter said...

Ralph said
"after all, who are you to tell me what is right and wrong? What privileges your concept of right and wrong over mine?"

That one has led to a lot of human misery..under religion(s) and God(s).

Way back when, David Hampton said "I generally find religious folks more fun and happy to be around. Atheists, etc. in their demeanor usually appear to be quietly desperate and defensive."

Well...like with like vs like with oustider. Substitute, reverse.

I remember overhearing a female college student talking to her friend:
"I don't believe in God..but I don't want to be one of those atheists."

n.n said...

"If there is no God, right..." is not a canard. It is a statement of a self-evident truth. The principle describes an absolute, immutable standard. That can only exist from a source in an extra-universal domain.

People who do not adhere to an objective, reproducible standard, are apt to follow a consensus or emergent standard, the so-called "go along to get along" standard or its political equivalent: pro-choice. The relation of force only becomes meaningful after assessing the character of the population and reconciling with the proposed standards of conduct (i.e. religion).

Meade said...

"What privileges your concept of right and wrong over mine?"

Let me google "is it wrong to" for you:

is it wrong to be gay
is it wrong to question god
is it wrong to be strong
is it wrong to pray for money
is it wrong to eat meat

I asked bing the same partial question:

is it wrong to sleep with your mother
is it wrong to celebrate christmas
is it wrong to love your step brother
is it wrong to have a christmas tree
is it wrong to judge people by appearance
is it wrong to shop on thanksgiving
is it wrong to grab and yell at your kids
is it wrong to ask god for a sign

When I asked bing "is it right to":

is it right to tell a lie
is it right to show a man how you feel
is it right to drink beer in winter
is it right to test on animals
is it right to fight by pat thomas
is it right to question god
is it right to bring flowers on 1st date
is it right to judge

And google:

is it right to judge
is it right to question god
is it right to eat animals
is it right to put a dog to sleep

See what I see? That's right — always go with google. No judginess about sleeping with your mother, telling your gay step brother how you feel, or fighting some guy named pat thomas who you've never even heard of.

I am not Laslo.

Lewis Wetzel said...

"meade is right"
Google: About 17,100,000 results (0.26 seconds)
"terry is right"
Google: About 207,000,000 results (0.27 seconds)

Meade said...

Hmm. I might have to reconsider which search engine god I pray to.

Or else just go back to my original religion: worshiping the almighty dollar.

Laslo Spatula said...

A few years ago I completed my Jessica Biel shrine and within a year she was naked in a film.

A year ago I completed my Scarlett Johanssen shrine and within a year she was naked in a film.

Several months ago I finished my Jennifer lawrence shrine and within a few weeks nude pictures of her were leaked on the internet.

I am almost done with my Taylor Swift shrine, as mentioned previously.

Just observing that there is a spiritual trend.


I am Laslo.

Meade said...

That is so wrong on so many levels, Laslo.

Don't believe me? Ask Google.

Anonymous said...

Original M: It took a lot longer than usual for this canard to show up.

It's a mere canard, I suspect, only for people who haven't thought very carefully about it. (That you or I are atheists and still manage to be jolly decent fellows by most people's lights is neither here nor there.)

Is, say, slavery immoral? Yes? OK, convince me that it is immoral to own, buy, and sell other human beings merely by reference to reason and evolved human nature. No sneaking in crypto-Christian Western progressive moral assumptions, or hand-waving about "moral progress" and "expanding circles", or cherry-picking the nicer bits of evolved morality (like empathy and reciprocal altruism) while leaving out the the nastier but every bit as real and "natural" bits (like tribalism and looking out for the genetic interests of Number One).

walter said...

n.n. said
"The problem with atheism, is that it lends itself to foster narcissism. This is why left-wing ideologues tend to be atheist or apostates of another faith. The greatest violations of human rights have been committed by Islamic imperialism and the ensemble of Marxist religions. "

Ok..so atheism is the problem, unless it's a "bad" religion.
I'm not so sure most religions don't rely on narcissism, considering the ever present carrot/stick bargaining of personal reward (heaven,virgins)in exchange for "correct" behavior.

Tim McGuire said:
"Atheists are as religious as anybody, they just don't have a god. Which makes their religiosity rather pointless."
Mixing of the different definitions of religion here.

walter said...

Anglelyne,
Your approach seems to arbitrarily rule out your opposition's ideas and challenging them on your terms.

Laslo Spatula said...

Meade said...
"That is so wrong on so many levels, Laslo.

Don't believe me? Ask Google."

You don't want to know the things I ask Google. Even Google doesn't want to know the things I ask Google.


I am Laslo.

walter said...

Mr. Spatula,
If you have said powers of celebrity disrobing, can I submit a list to consider?

Michael said...

So some atheists want to leave the cathedrals and Bach in place because they are pleasing to look at. Augustine is OK because he is an ancient. But western culture would not be western culture without Christianity. Consider what our world might look like if the stupid and the easily led had been free of that superstition for these centuries. Where would we be? This is not necessarily an argument in favor of the existence of God but a plea to reason, to consider that belief in God itself has had a profound impact on very positive outcomes.

walter said...

Michael just Grubered Christianity.

Anonymous said...

walter: Your approach seems to arbitrarily rule out your opposition's ideas and challenging them on your terms.

You're welcome to persuade me how any of those things you think I've "arbitrarily ruled out" actually deliver an objective standard of morality without any recourse to circular reasoning and question-begging.

walter said...

Anglelyne,
It's unreasonable to expect or claim an objective morality. But in practice, "do unto others" comes pretty close. It's a perfectly reasonable adaptation for survival, at least amongst your own "kind". Of course there is "tribalism", not the least between various religions...at times making it less than "objective"

Robert Cook said...

"A real atheist wouldn't give a damn if his values were Christian values."

To the extent there are atheists who compare their values to "Christian" values, it may be they are not validating themselves or their values by equating themselves with Christians, but simply making the valid observation that the values that are claimed as "Christian" values are found everywhere in human society, present and past, and are not uniquely "Christian."

Robert Cook said...

For all the talk here about values and "right and wrong" and whether there is such a thing in the absence of god, I stand bemused at the many, here and elsewhere, who consider themselves Christian who think our torture regime is justified, right and good.

Dr Weevil said...

I'm "bemused" that someone could allege "that the values that are claimed as 'Christian' values are found everywhere in human society, present and past", when even today there is one society that openly boasts of raping captives, selling them into slavery, or cutting off their heads on-camera, and others (e.g. North Korea) that do things as bad or worse, though they usually don't film it. Christian values are hardly universal, even today.

MrCharlie2 said...

Terry, thanks.

In my case I was taught right and wrong by an army officer turned GE exec and a Connecticut congregationalist-socialist.

As you can imagine, I learned my lessons, and I did lots of push-ups !

So, as many others have expressed in this thread, I am an atheist who really appreciates the symbiosis with christianity.

For me, it's that 5th grade argument: why is it that everyone here is a christian, but everyone in in Indonesia is a muslim?

Trashhauler said...

"Which is what a church is trying to do - to get you to stop thinking."

Funny. I always reckoned that was the basic appeal of atheism - you don't have to think about a whole bunch of things, anymore.

Robert Cook said...

"Cook probably attributes "'Inhofe's opposition to CAGW alarmism, carbon taxes, and UN/NGO-backed anti-capitalism to his religious beliefs.'

"I figured as much as well, and wanted to hear him defend the proposition, but he skedaddled."


Well, I didn't skedaddle, I'm traveling today.

As for Inhofe, it is less his denial of global climate change that reveals the pernicious influence of religious belief on public debate, but his basis for his denial. Rather than present a reasoned critique of the arguments and data presented by those who posit the existence of global climate change--a majority of those who have studied the science (not that this in itself automatically proves they are right)--he makes dismally childish claims that man-made (or influenced) climate change is "impossible, because God is still up there," and that we are "arrogant" to think we could influence that which God has put in place and still oversees.

When a society has such persons in their predominant governing body making such foolish statements--and setting policy on the basis of such--without fearing they will be laughed out of town--and they are NOT laughed out of town--that society has sunk to levels of ignorance and superstition that must dismay rational people.

(Mind, I don't necessarily think Inhofe believes this idiocy; he may, but it's just as likely he is simply doing his duty as a paid stooge for the petrochemical industry but he knows how to sell his position to the rubes out there who will listen and accept it.)

Robert Cook said...

"Christian values are hardly universal, even today."

Read more carefully; I didn't say the values many consider uniquely "Christian" are universal; I said they are found in human societies throughout the world and throughout the ages. So are values that we cannot consider "Christian."

MrCharlie2 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lewis Wetzel said...

" . . . but simply making the valid observation that the values that are claimed as "Christian" values are found everywhere in human society, present and past."
That's not true, Robert. The idea that every human life has value (even Muslim lives), and that we are all created equal are not found everywhere in human society. The golden rule is not universal. "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" is not universal. They are kind of rare, actually.
What evidence of your senses tells you that all human beings are created equal?

MrCharlie2 said...

Trashhauler: "you don't have to think about a whole bunch of things, anymore."

What things don't I have to think about anymore? (I just want to know if there is something out there I haven't thought about that that I really ought to.)

mtrobertsattorney said...

Walther argues that "do unto others" is a perfectly reasonable adaptation" for survival. But if we look at the natural world as a rational empiricist we see there is no such thing. There, the operative principle is survival of the fittest.

The philosopher Nietzsche heaped scorn on those who accepted as true the idea that "God is dead" but refused to recognize that the old "love thy neighbor" stuff died right along with Him.

Contrast these poor fools with the overman who clearly sees that the single truth of the new ethics is "justice is the will of the stronger".

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

walter:

The incentive in an extra-universal religion such as Judaism or Christianity may or not be realized in the post-mortem. This is why religious societies degenerate into a secular or atheist society, and especially a left-wing regime, because people expect and demand a tangible return, including material wealth and libertinism. The adopted mortal gods, the minority leaders in a left-wing regime, promise people the opiate of dissociation of risk, or death to disbelievers.

The problem is not necessarily atheism, but a progressive narcissism, which is clearly not limited to atheists. In fact, other than a single affirmative statement about matters outside the scientific domain (e.g. universal or extra-universal), and subsequently denying their faith, there aren't any principles to judge atheists as a class.

Typically, atheists compete with theists and other atheists for capital and control of a society, as observed throughout the 20th century and continuing today with the Marxist ensemble. In this order, they can be absolutely ruthless. Even committing genocide or sponsoring a "voluntary" genocide of a population under the color of "choice".

That said, have you read the moral requirements for entry into the Judeo-Christian heaven? It would be amazing to learn if there are any humans that pass that rigorous test. Perhaps points are given for effort to improve, then graded on a sliding scale. No, religion is definitely not an opiate of the masses, or people with marginal faith or morality.

Anyway, it seems that you may identify as atheist, and my criticism prompted a reaction. Take notice that I don't criticize atheists as a class, other than an ill-advised affirmative statement about universal and extra-universal phenomenon. And why I refrain from general pronouncements about individuals, other than on commonly held principles or actions.

Anonymous said...

walter: It's unreasonable to expect or claim an objective morality. But in practice, "do unto others" comes pretty close. It's a perfectly reasonable adaptation for survival, at least amongst your own "kind".

So what is it, exactly, that you're taking issue with in my post @5:35? So, you're saying that it wouldn't be immoral for me to enslave non-kith and kin? Or, at least, you're conceding that you don't have an argument for the universal immorality of slavery that wouldn't be an unreasonable (your word) appeal to some objective moral standard?

Btw, a reader would have no idea what you're appealing to with that sloppy phrase "perfectly reasonable adaptation". Biology? Culture? Conscious moral reasoning? Do you even know what you're appealing to? At any rate, that vague slop doesn't even begin to cut it as an argument against enslaving one's own "kind", let alone enslaving anybody else. Hey, sometimes murdering one's brother would be highly maladaptive, but other times - well, sometimes it turns out to be not only a "perfectly reasonable adaptation for survival", but a damned necessary one. (Ask any wannabe Ottoman sultan.)

Of course there is "tribalism", not the least between various religions...at times making it less than "objective".

At this point I conclude that even you haven't got the foggiest what your point is supposed to be here.

walter said...

mtrobertsattorney,
The "natural world" is not a monolith.
It is more plausible if you view behaviors of different species...microbes and insects at one end..primates being capable of empathy etc., humans capable of other behaviors..."fittest" being defined within that context.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The ultimate survival mechanism would be for others to "do unto others as they would be done to," but to personally do unto others as thou would.

Jupiter said...

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
"You know your friends better than I, but you don't have much respect for the depth of their understanding and belief, do you?"

We are talking about people -- very nice people -- who believe the Bible is literally true. Since they are fond of "intelligent design" books, and sometimes ask me to read them, I have to restrain myself from pointing out the tendentiousness of many of the arguments in these books. What is your view, Pants, of that depth of understanding? I suppose I could point out that evolution is not incompatible with God's will, and that the Bible shows many instances of God working through natural processes to achieve his goals. If God can use the weather, why can't He use evolution? Those are the sort of arguments sophisticated theists use to reconcile the obvious fact of evolution with their belief in Creation. But I don't see any point in schooling my friends in sophistry.

Newton, who was vastly smarter than I am, produced a dozen or so proofs of the existence of God. It has always seemed to me that at most one should suffice, and the multiplicity of arguments suggests a nagging doubt.

walter said...

Anglelyne,
Yes, adaptation within "culture" and "conscious moral reasoning". I think it's less about an objective morality as it is about an enhanced level of self-preservation... desiring and at least trying to create a society that is least threatening to an individual.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Walter, the problem is working backwards from a known state and finding a cause based on ideology. If you've already decided that all of human behavior should be attributed to evolution and reproductive mechanisms, you will always find human behavior to be an evolutionary adaptation. When nature produces something despicable (like serial killers and commies), you then find yourself trying to 'correct nature'. Evolution has no teleology other than survival of the fittest. People -- even atheists -- have a teleological purpose. They want to be happy and not die.

walter said...

"The ultimate survival mechanism would be for others to "do unto others as they would be done to," but to personally do unto others as thou would."

Maybe..if no societal rules, boundaries or consequences are in play. Though even with them, see a lot of this in Guberment.

n.n said...

This is what we know. Ironically, it is also what we don't know, and probably cannot know, while we exist within the system we are observing. There is an unknown, unidentified underlying order to the universe. This order was either created, spontaneous, or emergent. It engendered a fitness function that, among other things, directs the construction of semi-stable states known as humans, plants, rocks, etc. This order is believed to derive from extra-universal phenomena, while others believe it is created by an extra-universal entity.

It's all faith or, charitably, philosophy. In Clinton's words: what difference does it make? Perhaps we will learn the truth in our post-mortem, or not.

As for self-moderating behaviors, this is either characteristic of morality or coercion. Probably a combination of both. It's notable that it is not uniformly distributed throughout a community. Not even in a family.

I start with two articles of faith or axioms: individual dignity and intrinsic value; two orders: natural and conscious; then proceed to reconcile them. The outcome of reconciliation varies (there are intrinsic biases), and perhaps that is the cause of apparent discrepancies.

Dr Weevil said...

Jupiter writes: "Newton, who was vastly smarter than I am, produced a dozen or so proofs of the existence of God. It has always seemed to me that at most one should suffice, and the multiplicity of arguments suggests a nagging doubt."

That's exactly what I've always thought about Lucretius' 30 or so proofs of the mortality of the soul. In short, atheist arguments can be equally unconvincing.

Jupiter said...

Terry said...
"Evolution has no teleology other than survival of the fittest. People -- even atheists -- have a teleological purpose. They want to be happy and not die."

Not wanting to die has obvious survival value, to the point that one has to wonder how a species capable of suicide could have evolved. Wanting to "be happy" is a bit vague. People mostly want what they want, and suppose obtaining it would make them happy. Some adaptive explanation for the underlying desire can usually be adduced, although I agree that there is something circular in most evolutionary reasoning. If an evolutionist cannot find a reason for, say, altruism, to be adaptive, he does not confess himself persuaded by the weight of the evidence, and renounce evolution. He keeps on trying to find an evolutionary explanation for altruism. A lot like Freudianism.

buster said...

Mark Kaplan said:

"Philosophically untutored people think that morality comes from God, so atheists must be evil and a godless society must be profoundly wicked."

Your comment, in addition to being false, is a non sequitur.

Original Mike said...

"[Inhofe] makes dismally childish claims that man-made (or influenced) climate change is "impossible, because God is still up there," and that we are "arrogant" to think we could influence that which God has put in place and still oversees."

Hmmm, that rings a bell. Did he really say that (got a link)?

richard mcenroe said...

A rigid belief in Nothing is no more and no less convincing on the face of it than a rigid belief in Anything. But still...

Neither science nor religion can offer an experimentially provable excuse for how everything began. (The best science can do, and it is a worthy effort that might in its own way bring us closer to God, is chronicle the procedure as it has continued since then.) But science has no more provable an idea of what suddenly caused that hot, dense soup that seems to have preceded the universe to spark, collapse and erupt again into all the variety of nature. Whence the spark?

You can say it was a random physical process or accident, and reduce all subsequent existence to a random fizzling out of that first flash, and diminish all human achievement, aspiration and accomplishment to the random chemical actions and decay of a few pounds of decaying collagens. You can diminish Aristotle and Socrates, K'ung Fu-tze, da Vinci, and Michelangelo, Mozart, Jefferson and Einstein, let alone the saints and sages of every culture in every land to a mass of no more significance than a mound of drying cowshit. In which case...what's the point? What's the sense of striving for a few years' petty gratifications followed by an inevitable decay into pain, loneliness and death—

—Or you can take as a working assumption that the Universe is a created work on a scale which we can only imagine but strive to emultate on our tiny scale. That there is a point to it and our tiny efforts within it. That there was an ultimate Origin and an ultimate Goal and that there is therefore an ends towards which we can shape our lives and natures.

What I've never had an atheist offer me is any reason why I should bother—and yet I look around me and see a world of such beauty and complexity that I cannot help but believe there is a purpose to such craftsmanship...which suggest to me a Craftsman with a vision I should struggle to grasp.

fizzymagic said...

My experience with atheists is that they tend (on average) to be quite superficial thinkers who fancy themselves deep thinkers. I have never met an atheist who is able to honestly approach the origins of morality without resorting to circular reasoning.

Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins are exemplars of this type.

Original Mike said...

"Neither science nor religion can offer an experimentially provable excuse for how everything began."

That's true (though it may not remain so at some future date) and to that extent I do not preclude the possibility of a purposeful beginning. It is unknowable. But if something started the universe, I don't believe that that something has interacted with the universe since.

"You can diminish Aristotle and Socrates, K'ung Fu-tze, da Vinci, and Michelangelo, Mozart, Jefferson and Einstein, let alone the saints and sages of every culture in every land to a mass of no more significance than a mound of drying cowshit. In which case...what's the point?"

Viewing it as diminishment is your personal choice. Others see it differently.

JAORE said...

Niftier guns and planes too, ken in tx.

JAORE said...

Uhhh. Ignore the above post. I typed it in another thread and - poof - it appeared here. I can only surmise divine intervention.

Michael K said...

"-he makes dismally childish claims that man-made (or influenced) climate change is "impossible, because God is still up there," and that we are "arrogant" to think we could influence that which God has put in place and still oversees."

Pretty funny. They sound like Al Gore explaining how the arctic will be ice free by 2013. The war mists make equally childish claims. Paul Ehrlich said the world would die of starvation by 1970.

Original Mike said...

Perhaps more to the point, the fact that some need a deity to provide a reason for their existence is not an argument that God indeed exists.

walter said...

That one "morality" has had some severe differences depending on where and when..unless you feel that generations of folks unexposed to certain religions for multiple generations don't count...like my brother who at one point felt driven to translate the bible into the myriad languages in Papua New Guinea etc. They just hadn't heard the Good News yet.

"I look around me and see a world of such beauty and complexity that I cannot help but believe.."

Feel that way about diseases?

Various folks point out atheists inability to prove the negative, yet when up against contradictory issues in their religion, often invoke an appeal to "faith".

Trashhauler said...

MrCharlie2 asked:

[As an atheist] "What things don't I have to think about anymore? (I just want to know if there is something out there I haven't thought about that that I really ought to.)"

Well, for a start, you don't have to worry about numerous sins of omission and commission. Those only matter if they hurt someone (provided even that remains a concern) and even then the causality becomes shaky.

You don't have to think about what God wants you to do. You are the final authority and the only real concern is what is legal, not what is "right." In any case, if no one knows what you did, it doesn't matter if it was wrong - nobody is perfect and you can forgive yourself your own faults.

You don't have to consider taking a stand on social issues based on religious beliefs. Whatever passes for social convention at the time is just fine. Anything that troubles you is simply a self-referential matter of taste.

For that matter, nobody has the right to judge you, so hatred is just as valid as love, Philanthropy is no more than a narcissistic whim, and caring about the future past your own death is as meaningful and personally useful as a clam's dream of ruling the Great Barrier Reef.

In other words, no worries, mate. You're a fluke of the universe and you have no right to be here.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The problem with the start of the universe is that something had to cause it. And something had to cause the thing that caused the beginning of the universe. There is no end to that chain, our human minds demand a cause. It isn't enough to say that the causality chain goes back before time because it is a meaningless statement. What caused an endless chain of causality to begin? So we arrive at the Medieval idea of a prime mover, that which is not caused but causes everything else to begin.

tim in vermont said...

So we arrive at the Medieval idea of a prime mover, that which is not caused but causes everything else to begin.

Right. And if "God" can self create, so can the Universe. If God can "always have been," so can the Universe.

BTW, I got a kick out Hombres assertion that Communism is not a political system.

I guess that is why Communists have so little interest in politics.

CStanley said...

@Original Mike: the Catholic Church teaches that the creation story in Genesis is poetic, not literal. I assume that was just one example but since that is the one you responded with its clear that you didn't have an accurate understanding of the faith before rejecting it.

You also assert that quantum particles arise from nothing. My understanding of quantum physics, like most people's, is limited (insufficient brainpower and interest, I suppose, but I do have a high IQ and could probably grasp it if I took the time.) In my limited reading it seems to me that this isn't a settled question and it somewhat depends on the definition of "nothing".

The greater point is that even if true it doesn't negate that human observation of the natural world includes nothing that comes from nothing, I was presenting this not as proof of God's existence, but instead as an argument that belief in God is not illogical. Because of our observations, belief in a Creator is more rational than belief in the spontaneity of creation.

Arguing religion vs. science is a fool's errand anyway (like arguing whether or not poetry is valuable to the human experience by claiming that it is merely a process of human neuronal connections producing marks with ink on a paper or pixels on a screen.) I regret that my earlier comments steered our exchange in that direction.

Robert Cook said...

@trashhauler at 12:07 a.m.

You don't think atheists think of these things? You don't think prevailing social mores exert some influence on the thinking of all of us, religious and non-religious alike? You think atheists are morally or ethically blank, acting arbitrarily on whim, fancy, lust, or anger?

If so, you're obtuse to the reality of human beings, who have lived in societies with notions of right and wrong long before Christian mythology was formulated.

Robert Cook said...

"Pretty funny. They sound like Al Gore explaining how the arctic will be ice free by 2013. The war mists make equally childish claims. Paul Ehrlich said the world would die of starvation by 1970."

So, the thing to do is argue against the notion of human-caused or influenced global climate change on the basis of the scientific data, not to show oneself an utter fool by claiming that "man cannot alter what God hath wrought."

Jeff said...

If you think there is no morality without Christianity, then you must also believe that all of the ancient Romans, Greeks, etc., and all of the Chinese and Japanese prior to say, 1800 or so, were all immoral evil people.

Really?

It is a fact that the vast majority of people who follow a religion follow the religion of their parents. If one particular religion is actually true and all of the others are false, why does this happen? Why can't the one true religion convince everyone that it is correct?

Arguments about religion go on and on with very few people ever changing their minds not because they are stupid or stubborn, but because there's so little objective evidence that very few people are persuaded to switch away from the religion of their parents.

Robert Cook said...

"I have never met an atheist who is able to honestly approach the origins of morality without resorting to circular reasoning."

It's obviously an evolutionary adaptation, seen in many social animals: group cooperation and social cohesion tend to favor the survival of the group in the face of want and danger from other predators, and survival of he group better insures survival of the individual. Behavior that undermines social cohesion--lack of cooperation, duplicity, individuals within the group harming other group members, etc.--will endanger the stability necessary to the survival of the group, and thus, will endanger survival of the individual.

There's nothing mysterious or unfathomable about it.

Robert Cook said...

"At any rate, that vague slop doesn't even begin to cut it as an argument against enslaving one's own 'kind', let alone enslaving anybody else."

Objectively, there is no reason why slavery is "bad," from the standpoint of survival of the human group; it has existed throughout human history after all...yet we still survive.

However, if we extrapolate from our individual desire to live free and as owners of our own lives--possible due to the empathy and sympathy that are among the evolutionary adaptations that allow us to live cooperatively and in social cohesion--we can imagine that if we do not wish to be slaves, then it is objectionable to enslave others. This is where morality (or ethics) is revealed as, in some part, an act of imagination, a creative expansion (of the basic adaptive behaviors of sympathy, empathy, cooperation, etc.) that is possible due to our capacity for abstract thought.

(Or, from a basis of pure self-interest, if we wish to protect against our one day being made slaves ourselves, we must forbid the enslavement of others.)

Jupiter said...

Robert Cook says;

"[Inhofe] makes dismally childish claims that man-made (or influenced) climate change is "impossible, because God is still up there," and that we are "arrogant" to think we could influence that which God has put in place and still oversees."

What you are complaining of, is that people who are religious, believe in miracles. Certainly, if God created the Universe, he should have no problem regulating the weather. You are suggesting that only atheists are fit to serve in Congress. Which, I suppose, is exactly what you believe.

Fernandinande said...

n.n said...
But, whether consciousness is believed to originate or is expressed, the universal consensus and observation is that it is limited.


The sound of good acid.

Terry said...
"meade is right"
Google: About 17,100,000 results (0.26 seconds)
"terry is right"
Google: About 207,000,000 results (0.27 seconds)


Actually 59 and 343 results. You were pretty close, though.

Trashhauler said...
I always reckoned that was the basic appeal of atheism - you don't have to think about a whole bunch of things, anymore.


So you don't have to think about religion if you're not religious, just like you don't have to think about farming if you're not a farmer. That's pretty deep.

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

You can be fascinated by the holy regression and aspirations of Judaism and Christianity without signing on to medieval stipulations. (For the objectors, English translations are not yet available).

Robert Cook said...

"If there is no God then there is no right or wrong. There are only actions of which you approve or disapprove. Your sense of right and wrong is merely the result of biological evolution and cultural conditioning."

Yes, of course.

"And after all, who are you to tell me what is right and wrong? What privileges your concept of right and wrong over mine?"

Those things that society deems "wrong" are prohibited by law, so the law tells you what is right and wrong, on pain of criminal sanctions. Those things that are not prohibited by law are, in fact, a matter of individual prerogative. Aren't we all aware of families who live in such ways or who raise their children in a manner we consider "wrong" or inappropriate? Just as surely, others may view your behavior with distaste or dismay.

walter said...

See Mrcharlie?
You don't "have to" think about such things, so you won't..unlike those elevated folk constantly obeying directives to preserve their reward. Though created in God's image, doomed sinners released into the "broken world" to fail or prove they are worthy of rescue. It gives life meaning..if you squint.

Robert Cook said...

"What you are complaining of, is that people who are religious, believe in miracles. Certainly, if God created the Universe, he should have no problem regulating the weather. You are suggesting that only atheists are fit to serve in Congress. Which, I suppose, is exactly what you believe."

I'm not suggesting at all that religious people should not serve in Congress; I'm stating that they should not make decisions that effect hundreds of millions of people in the real world on the basis of their personal superstitions. A Christian Scientist may choose not to have his or her ill child receive potentially life-saving surgery or medication because they believe God will save their child, (or not, if such is God's will), but they should not make decisions for the children of others on the basis of their beliefs in this regard.

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