So how are things going for feminism? Well, last week they took one of the great achievements of human history -- landing a probe from Earth on a comet hundreds of millions of miles away -- and made it all about the clothes.There's no antecedent for "they." Is "feminism" a collective term for all feminists? Even if it's only "some women," as Glenn puts it in the second paragraph, there's no way the people who chose to comment on Matt Taylor's shirt had the power to transform a newsworthy event into an event all about the clothes.
The statement would make more sense if it read: Some feminists made their preferred topic more attention-getting than the topic that should have predominated.
So what? We often pay less attention to what is more important. Why aren't we spending all our time thinking and talking about the deepest religious and philosophical questions?
Do you want to shut up the chatter that you think is too frivolous? It used to be the feminists who seemed to want to silence others. Apparently, now, they're so powerful that men are the ones doing the silencing. Men used to tell women that they ought to enter the debate and argue forthrightly in words and not expect men to shut up. In the case of this shirt, women jumped in, spoke up, and got heard. Isn't that what men had been advising women to do?
And I will be more provocative: In the broad span of human culture, fashion is more important than space travel.
Back to Glenn:
... Then some women noticed that one of the space scientists, Matt Taylor, was wearing a shirt... featuring comic-book depictions of semi-naked women.Some women noticed? Everyone noticed! It was an extremely showy shirt, and Taylor chose it for some reason. We were supposed to pretend we didn't see it? It's not as though the "some women" made something out of nothing. To blame the women for making this a topic is to impose a burden on us all to shut up about something obvious. If Taylor had wanted to keep everything focused on the achievements of the team he was on, he wouldn't have picked that shirt. Why attack the women?
And suddenly, the triumph of the comet landing was drowned out by shouts of feminist outrage about . . . what people were wearing....How is that a shout of feminist outrage? It's caustic humor. You know, the kind men used to like to say that women couldn't do? It was Taylor who brought attention to himself, which messed up the moment of triumph for his teammates. When you wear a shirt like that, you're asking for it... to use a phrase that has been used against women. And I know that in repurposing that old line, I'm putting Rose Eveleth in the place of the rapist, but she didn't commit any crime against Taylor. She criticized him.
The Atlantic's Rose Eveleth tweeted, "No no women are toooootally welcome in our community, just ask the dude in this shirt."
Astrophysicist Katie Mack commented: "I don't care what scientists wear. But a shirt featuring women in lingerie isn't appropriate for a broadcast if you care about women in STEM." And from there, the online feminist lynch mob took off until Taylor was forced to deliver a tearful apology on-camera.Lynch mob? No physical injury befell Taylor. He was criticized. It used to be women who tried to control male speech and who would cry as a way to say that men shouldn't be so brutal. The tables are turned.
It seems to me that if you care about women in STEM, maybe you shouldn't want to communicate the notion that they're so delicate that they can't handle pictures of comic-book women. Will we stock our Mars spacecraft with fainting-couches?It seems to me that it's the man who crumpled in a flood of emotion. I think the women looked straight at the pictures and criticized them. That counts as handling. Taylor retreated. Whatever message he may have thought he was sending through his choice of shirt — and it's undeniable that he intended to send a message — it wasn't heard the way he wanted, and he expressed regret.
Fashion is ambiguous. You need to think about what you want to say with clothing. If you don't want to say much of anything, wear conventional, bland, neutral things. Taylor went far to the extreme in his choice of clothing. He was asking to be read. His shirt screamed. But what did it say? Some women told the world what they thought it said, and he disowned that statement. Conversation over.
Or do you want to keep talking about it? Because if you do — and apparently Glenn does — then you're causing it to overshadow the achievement of the Rosetta team. Why?
... [W]hat should have been the greatest day in a man's life -- accomplishing something never before done in the history of humanity -- was instead derailed by people with their own axes to grind.It wasn't to have been "the greatest day in a man's life," but the greatest day for a team, and that one man decided to showboat and draw attention to himself. That man said he's sorry. Can he melt back into the team — the team that deserves the credit — or do you insist on appropriating him for the purpose of attacking feminism?
356 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 356 of 356harrogate: "Tim I referenced Bush there because he was pretty masterful at using fashion rhetorically and to immense effect.'
Unbelievable.
You'll find that most pilots who pilot S-3's aboard aircraft carriers tend to wear the full complement of required flight gear (including standard issue flight suits).
The flight suit wasn't worn simply for effect.
Again, unbelievable.
The left simply cannot let GWBush go.
Chickelit: you're sure right about that. But I do acknowledge the pendulum swing and criticize it all the same.
But I just find it strange how thoroughly committed all these commenters, who love the Althouse blog btw, appear in their refusal to consider that she has said something profound in her comment about fashion. As though it were impossible to learn something from someone else.
Drago, you're saying it WASN'T a performance when he landed on the carrier? Of course it was. Are you on crack? The flight suit was no less part of the performance than the flight.
Performance, by the way, does not equal Bad. We all are performative creatures, and what we wear is intertwined with that and politics is a high expression of it.
All of which is a part of why Althouse's point was worth contemplating and easily defensible.
"As though it were impossible to learn something from someone else."
As though it were impossible for Althouse to be, you know, wrong about something.
Did I say she was never wrong or even rarely wrong? Most of what I write on her is contrarian to her posts. But I don't even see much effort to consider the point. Maybe it's there and I am missing it though
Harrogate. It's been six years! Get over George W. Bush. Or don't. Actually, I think your obsession is hilarious, hysterical even, if I am allowed to say that.
harrogate said...
Drago, you're saying it WASN'T a performance when he landed on the carrier? Of course it was. Are you on crack? The flight suit was no less part of the performance than the flight.
GWBush was a trained fighter pilot. Supersonic interceptors no less.
The second we've had as President. The first was his father.
At this point, given your astonishing (but wholly expected) ignorance of matters related to the military, I'll just stop.
It's a military aviation thing, you wouldn't understand.
harrogate: " But I don't even see much effort to consider the point."
And goodness knows if harrogate doesn't "even see much effort to consider the point", then it's established that there wasn't much effort to "consider the point".
Hey, lets talk about GWBush again!
BTW, wouldn't John "can I git me a huntin' license hare" Kerry (along with a cool new hunting outfit with the tags still showing) would have been a much more spot on example. But hey, he's a dem, so that's off the table.
Ok he was simply being a fighter pilot. And I'm obsessed with him and obviously hate him. And fashion is a girl thing and space travel is a man thing and much more important.
Yes! Kerry's hunting gear is a great example of very bad ineffective fashion. Exactly!
harrogate: "Ok he was simply being a fighter pilot."
You've never uttered anything more true.
harrogate: "And I'm obsessed with him and obviously hate him"
Demonstrably true.
harrogate: "And fashion is a girl thing and space travel is a man thing and much more important."
Also demonstrably true.
Where to next?
I liked the movie *Ready to Wear*, directed by Robert Altman. I thought it was his most underrated movie and it really had a lot to say about fashion in its own quiet way.
"But I just find it strange how thoroughly committed all these commenters, who love the Althouse blog btw, appear in their refusal to consider that she has said something profound in her comment about fashion."
It wasn't profound. I believe she said it to stir things up ("And I will be more provocative"). If it was serious, it's just loopy.
Lee harvey Oswald's shirt was unassuming. No controversy there.
Drago your demonstrably expressed lack of curiosity about the world and the people in it is interesting given your supposed respect for space travel and engineers.
It was an unprofessional shirt to wear. The initial Twitter post was an ungracious blurt, virtually a parody.
The issue is that the SJW hit mob descended on the poor dude lack a pack of wild dogs AND that he felt compelled to engage in Maoist self-criticism as a result.
If he wore a Che Guevara shirt it would've been OK. Chicks dig Che.
Whatever you wear, you're saying something with it. Even if it's "I'm not saying anything. I don't give a damn about fashion. I'm a guy who hangs out with engineers damn it."
I suppose,Althouse, it would depend on how you define fashion, but in the grand sweep of human history nobody cares what pants Lee Harvey Oswald wore.
"Whatever you wear, you're saying something with it. Even if it's "I'm not saying anything. I don't give a damn about fashion."
Just because you think you hear it, doesn't mean I'm saying it.
Hey, women! I'm wearing a shirt with a picture of Uranus!
Because we've gone too long in space posts without a Uranus joke.
But if I had to wear a shirt with an anus on it I'd wear one with Picasso's anus. Because then everyone would say 'What is THAT?" and I would say "It's a Picasso."
Plus, Picasso rhymes with asshole, per Jonathan Richman.
Though if I REALLY had to wear a shirt with an anus picture on it I would want it to be Mandy Moore's anus; no one else would need to know.
harrogate,
Whether or not the landing on the carrier was a performance was totally irrelevant to Bush wearing a flight suit. It would never occur to him *not* to wear one in the cockpit of a fighter plane, and if anyone had suggested wearing anything else he would at the very least have pointed out that failing to wear protective gear was unsafe.
ebartely: ahhhh but the power of standing there as President in a flight suit giving a speech for all to see after landing the carrier. Rhetorically, it was arguably one of the most powerful moments in Presidential history. And fashion contributed to that. Fashion matters a lot.
If you google "anal fashion" you get a site on the first page that offers the following:
Fightin' Chick Anal Cancer Button
Anal Cancer Fight Like a Girl Button
Chick Interrupted 3 Rectal Cancer / Anal Cancer Button
Anal Cancer Picked the Wrong Diva Button
Anal Cancer Butterfly Circle of Ribbons Canvas Bag
I Love Anal Beads Hat
No anal scarves, no anal skirts, no anal turtlenecks, just buttons and a hat. Surely the Fashion World can do better.
But if Mandy Moore was photographed wearing an "I Love Anal Beads" Hat I would certainly buy that issue of Vogue.
There is a problem in the printing world: every magazine that I've bought with a picture of Mandy Moore in it has the pages all stuck together. Must be the ink.
The man is a goddess worshipper and perhaps his requires that image to be front & center, in the same way that some Christians require the display of a cross. I'm reminded of what JIm Morrison said on the Apollo landing: “We got to the moon on the basis of a lot of repressed sexuality energy.”
Lydia said...
From Elly Prizeman, the friend who made the shirt, who's also being pressured to apologize:
There is no ‘meaning’ behind the shirt. I just bought material and sewed it together.
Nothing sinister at all was meant behind it at any point. It was just a bold and individual fashion item.
I am sorry, Lydia (and Emily). This comment is far too sensible. It must be ignored.
"...and it's undeniable that he intended to send a message..."
In Althouse's mind- The scenario: Sexist science guy getting dressed for work.
- Today is a big day. If the mission is successful I might be interviewed on camera for television. Now what can I wear that will be seen as most hostile to women and keep them out of the study of STEM fields generally and astrophysics in particular...(spies hawaiian shirt adorned with space babes) Hmmm, this out to do it... Yes, this should do nicely...Bwahahahaha...
harrogate: "Drago your demonstrably expressed lack of curiosity about the world and the people in it is interesting given your supposed respect for space travel and engineers."
LOL
Feel free to link to my "expressed" lack of curiosity about any subject.
Not to worry, we won't be holding our breath.
You are rapidly approaching AReasonableMeltdown territory with that laugher.
I posted a comment 2 hours ago, wasn't approved. Harrogate's Bushes get through every time. It's no wonder people think you're slanted, Prof A.
Not newsworthy. End of story.
harrogate: "ebartely: ahhhh but the power of standing there as President in a flight suit giving a speech for all to see after landing the carrier. Rhetorically, it was arguably one of the most powerful moments in Presidential history. And fashion contributed to that. Fashion matters a lot."
Fact: GWBush was not wearing a flight suit when he gave his speech on the USS Abraham Lincoln.
Facts, they are nettlesome things at times, no?
"I could snark about males and verbal ability here but I won't because I don't approve of stereotyping. "
Not only could you but you actually just did via veiled implication. You are not so adroit as you think you are. Nothing here is verbal, BTW. It's written.
"I said in the broad span of human culture, fashion is more important than space travel."
Space travel is all about science. His point stands. If someone finds fashion more imporant than space travel it is quite likely they would not have done all the hard work it would take to do this scientific mission.
"I invite you to think deeply about why this is so."
His explanation works even if what you said is true. So your last paragraph is moot.
"But I just find it strange how thoroughly committed all these commenters, who love the Althouse blog btw, appear in their refusal to consider that she has said something profound in her comment about fashion"
Perhaps it's because she didn't say anything that was terribly profound. As another commenter pointed out, yes, fashion has been more important than space travel in the long sweep of human history, but that's because space travel has only been around for about 60 years. If space travel can help us figure out how to keep a comet from destroying life on earth, well, I'd say it's a wee bit more important than whatever the models are wearing as they traipse down the catwalks in Milan and Paris.
I just love how Vicki in Pasadena, bless her totalitarian little heart, states that EVERYONE should be offended by a cheesy shirt. Well, Vicki, gee, I'm not. My, I guess that makes me one of those awful women-hatin' women in your eyes. I am far more offended by "feminists" who march around in public dressed as giant vulvas and tell themselves that's somehow empowering. Or the "feminists" who tried to throw used tampons at Texas state legislators. My guess is you saw nothing wrong with those displays of clownishness, which were much more nasty, vulgar and explicit than anything on that guy's shirt.
But, oh yeah, I remember what the rules are. Feminist rules are really no different from the rules that prevailed at my all-girl high school. The mean girl clique determines what is acceptable and what isn't and if other girls disagree with them - well, those other girls just don't matter.
Except now that I'm in my 50's, the mean girls and the petty, prissy Ms. Bossypants who demand conformity to their rules and standards - well, they don't have the power to cow me. I'm sorry they still have the power to cow this poor dude.
Professor Reynolds' take on this sad, stupid affair is correct.
Damn. All these years I had remembered him giving the speech in the flight suit. Seriously, Drago, thanks for correcting me on that. I looked it up and you're right
Sure Ann, fashion is super important.
Fashion rules all of our destinies whether we want to admit it or not. Let's redefine fashion to mean everything that ever happens anywhere (which is about 1% rhetorically larger a definition than you are giving it already,) and now, we can say landing a space probe on a comet is just fashion, too! I love this style of debate: it's magic.
Here is something I haven't seen commented on:
Sure, whatever you wear during the day opens you to criticism of one kind or another, fine, arguendo.
How about this?
How you behave when you go out (even through Twitter)says even more than what you wear, and consequently opens you (Even more than your choice of socks! Or belts!) to exactly the same criticism.
This guy wore the wrong shirt to work the day something huge and important happened, partially due to his hard work.
Then, our friend from The Atlantic decided to make clear to the whole world that every damn thing she sees, no matter where she may be or what doing, all she ever thinks about is feminist Social Justice bulls*** that contributes NOTHING AT ALL to the future of her species. Nothing.
Now, Ann, open your mind a bit. Is this thimble-brained windbag from The Atlantic somehow immune to the same sort of criticism you are saying is perfectly reasonable for the scientist? Consider that his job is launching, flying and landing space probes, and her job is writing things.
Which of these people is the graver disgrace to the public and to their species? The Scientist who got a shirt wrong, or the writer who can't see the world except for her giant coke-bottle I'm Being Oppressed bifocals?
Get over yourself, Ann. It's not about fashion, it's about a writer who has a quarter of a million words at her disposal and despite that has ONE DRONING MESSAGE FOR THE WORLD, WRITTEN OVER AND OVER, AND SOME PEOPLE ARE TIRED OF THAT.
Sorry for yelling. I was impassioned.
Obviously Ann knows very little about geek culture and is dissing an entire culture of men AND women. The guy was wearing a shirt with covers from vintage pulp SF. I am a STEM, and love my culture, which includes comics,science fiction, Game of Thrones, LOTR, Hobbit, fantasy, games like D&D and Warhammer. I also attend Comic Con International.
I work with a lot of female STEMs, and nearly all would say "Cool where can I get one".
Althouse needs some sensitivity/cultural diversity training on geek culture.
Doesn't Elly Prizeman know EVERYONE should be offended by that shirt? What kind of woman is she? She needs Vicki from Pasadena to reprogram her so she only thinks proper, feminist-approved thoughts from this point on.
Sounds like Amy Alkon needs a stern talking to as well. She just doesn't know how to properly respond to tacky shirts worn by science geeks. She must be a self-hating woman.
Am assuming that Mme Instapundit's book's sales are flagging, so they need to drum up some publicity. (Shrug.)
"Drago, you're saying it WASN'T a performance when he landed on the carrier? Of course it was. Are you on crack? The flight suit was no less part of the performance than the flight. "
Twerp, have you ever flown anywhere that did not involve the TSA ? Of course not.
"And fashion is a girl thing and space travel is a man thing and much more important."
Glad you see this and nice to know you are a girl. Or maybe tranie.
don't see what all the fuss is about. it's not like he was wearing shorts.
or socks.
Ann, I normally like you. On this one you boned it.
If he owes anyone an apology he owes it to his team for being the cause of an incident that took away from their accomplishment. Never - never, never, never - apologize to the Grievance SMERSH.
Freeman Hunt said...
Sometimes you go to a wedding and the wedding dress is tacky or the bridesmaids' dresses are hideous. You don't complain to the bride, nor do you use social media to shame her. Unless, of course, you're a complete jerk.
yes. does he think of fashion like you think of fashion? if he is saying something with that shirt, have you thought about what he might be saying? does it merit the rebuke he's received?
Harrogate,
You're just stupid. Pres Bush was operating as a crew member, in one of the pilot seats, on a Naval aircraft landing on a carrier. He was NOT just a passenger. Flight crews in that environment ALWAYS wear flight suits, along with the survival vests.
"In the case of this shirt, women jumped in, spoke up, and got heard. Isn't that what men had been advising women to do?"
I've had serious conversations with women - some of them in potentially life and death situations. But a shirt?
These critics didn't want a conversation. They wanted contrition, followed by an apology, followed by absorption of the lesson. That lesson is to remember who sets the standards, who gets the veto, and who determines what is important.
Brian Macker: Nothing here is verbal, BTW. It's written.
Yes, it's verbal. It's not oral ("uttered by the mouth; spoken"), but it is verbal ("consisting of or in the form of words").
Most of it is pretty meaningless, too, and I don't except my own comment. :)
Harrogate,
You're just stupid. Pres Bush was operating as a crew member, in one of the pilot seats, on a Naval aircraft landing on a carrier. He was NOT just a passenger. Flight crews in that environment ALWAYS wear flight suits, along with the survival vests.
Harrogate is upset that Bush was even qualified to be in the cockpit of a US fighter jet and required to wear a flight suit.
Compare this to the current POTUS who is only qualified to wear the native dress of an Asian Pacific country for authenticity.
Professor, if fashion was more important than space travel, you'd have mythology and major religions focusing on togas and shirts and not the universe as a whole. Few topics in the history of humanity has had less importance than fashion. Sports comes close.
Althouse seems to always get bashed when she says anything even slightly pro women. It's uncanny that she has a commentariat full of misogynists, even female misogynists. Anti women sentiment is 'popular' now among the right wing. Men feeling sorry for themselves is such a turn off. So what if some women criticized the shirt, so damn what? Get a grip, men and I don't mean on your penis.
Treating women like vapid little whiners is "pro woman"? In what alternate universe?
You claim you want "equality" but you still expect men to treat you like Victorians. Screw that.
Women, general rule: If you want to be TREATED like ladies, there are things YOU have to do to warrant that. Otherwise, we'll treat you like one of the guys.
...which, mind you, you have always claimed you wanted but history shows is definitely not the case.
"fashion is more important than space travel"
Says the fool who voted for Obama.
What a joke.
Maybe you can organize a #nobadshirts hashtag campaign with Michelle Obama.
damikesc said...
Few topics in the history of humanity has had less importance than fashion. Sports comes close
I agree and will go your one further: Sports is for men as fashion is for women; both incredible time/energy/money wasters.
Now that's a controversial statement.
The Professor wrote: "I said in the broad span of human culture, fashion is more important than space travel."
Perhaps we need a definition here. What do you mean by "fashion?" Because clothes do not require fashion to be functional. In fact, for almost all clothing, form is closely related to function. So please, if you will, explain what is the importance of fashion?
49th anniversary of the Battle of Ia Drang. Those guys had horrible fashion sense, too.
#SaveOurGirlsFromEvilClutchesOfPolyester
Purse your lips to make a difference!
I've seen Althouse miss a few but never as badly as this one.
The whole university/"trigger warnings" thing has set women back a generation.
I have grand daughters and I hope they never see this.
God !
Have you seen Rose Eveleth? Taylor can change his shirt but Rose will live with that face forever.
Actually, Joe, many want the folks making the publicity to be decently dressed. (Fwiw.)
Chicklet wrote: "Sports is for men as fashion is for women; both incredible time/energy/money wasters."
That's one way of looking at it, I guess. But for those of us who enjoy both sports and fashion, they also add a great deal of pleasure and fun to our lives. Gourmets spend an awful lot of time, energy, and money on fancy meals, which are even more ephemeral than clothing fads - so what?
One can enjoy those things without inflating their significance.
Althouse has inflated the importance of fashion, because it is important to her.
Uh-oh, the commentariat is in trouble with Althouse whenever she drags out the "I invite you to think deeply about why this is so" scold.
Our hostess is a terrific, funny, challenging, and thoughtful person who does, let's admit it, get a bit huffy from time to time on a handful of certain topics. (Huffiness would happen to any deeply thinking person living in a place like Madison.)
When this happens the blog suddenly becomes a law school lecture room where the authority's authority must be understood as superior to the eager students' lack of learning.
Fair enough, but the commentariat does not comprise paying law students, but rather some very terrific, funny, challenging, and thoughtful folks (well, and also comic relief like garage and SamanthaHill).
When Althouse turned off comments a while back the blog went flat like a year-old bottle of mineral water. I suspect that most of us come for the posts but stay for the snark.
In the instant post (and, my, the number of comments!) Althouse first scolds the Instapundit and then the commentariat for conflating T-shirt comments with feminism, and includes such howlers as "fashion got Adam and Eve thrown out of the Garden of Eden" (according to which version of Genesis?).
Who gives a shit about some guy's T-shirt? Let's see who does and figure out what that says about her. In the meantime, bread and circuses, all the way down.
Submitted with respect and affection, Professor. This one has provided a good many laughs.
Fashion Is Danger
"Damn. All these years I had remembered him giving the speech in the flight suit. Seriously, Drago, thanks for correcting me on that. I looked it up and you're right."
First of all, I really respect your straightforward acknowledgment that you were mistaken. That's how it should be done.
But second, I think your "memory" of what you saw is interesting. Obviously, for you, fashion is very important because it formed an integral part of that memory, even though it was wrong. But is it so hard to imagine that for other people it's just not that memorable? Fashion doesn't trip anything particular in their brain because they're seeing right past it to other things. It's always a danger to think that other people are looking at the world exactly like you are. I'm not saying they agree with your opinions, but something more basic - that there's the implicit assumption that they're basing their opinions on the same factors you are. But that just isn't a good assumption from person to person.
I'll always remember when I was reading a bike forum (that I was a semi-regular on) once and there was some kind of disagreement being discussed and a poster said, "Aren't we all on here to become the best biker we can be?" That was his assumption. He assumed everybody went to this forum for the same reason he did. I just shook my head. There were commuters on there discussing commuting issues (including how to get to work without dying), racers discussing racing issues, casual bikers asking newbie questions and lots and lots of general discussion about routes, and bike parts and whatever. But this commenter looked right past all that and decided because he was interested in speed and performance that everyone else on there was there to maximize their speed and performance. He was completely blinkered even though evidence to the contrary was widespread right in front of him. People frequently do live in their own little worlds and can't see that others live in others. I actually stopped going to that forum very shortly thereafter because too many people on there seemed to share that attitude. That's the reason why I don't think what Professor Althouse said was profound. In my mind, what she said was "This is my little world and it should be yours, too." But she offered no proof of that. So no deep thought was required.
For some definitions of the word fashion, I see Althouse's point. Dress has been used to distinguish tribes since differentiation of dress was possible dress was used to distinguish classes within tribes as well. This is true for small tribes, city-states of antiquity and nations of today. Every strongman who wears military garb understands the point Althouse seems (to me) to be making.
That fashion is unnecessary seems untrue. Humanity sends signals through dress and with hair. These signals, through their ubiquity, demonstrate value. From Hasidics Jews to Mormon underpants to Amish dress to Soviet-era utilitarian dress, one cannot reasonably fail to see that the value of dress as evidenced by its widespread use as cultural signalling.
That I view space exploration as fundamentally more important to the future of humanity does not mean Althouse's point is untrue. Here's hoping we get off this rock and diversify humanity's risk portfolio before some uncontrolled event makes space exploration impossible!
Althouse first scolds the Instapundit and then the commentariat for conflating T-shirt comments with feminism, and includes such howlers as "fashion got Adam and Eve thrown out of the Garden of Eden" (according to which version of Genesis?).
But fashion was the clue that alerted God to his miscreants' bad behavior. Maybe Althouse was conflating "getting caught" with the reason for expulsion. That seems perfectly reasonable in legal and ethically-challenged political circles.
By fashion, I mean to include all of the clothing that everyone wears. It's important for basic survival, comfort, and protection, and it's a powerful mode of expression for the wearer and the designer. It's intimately tied to the body and thus to our personal presentation. We see others almost always only with their clothes as part of their image, and it affects how we feel and think about them. Clothing is a big part of nearly everyone's life, a huge part of our visual world.
It wasn't to have been "the greatest day in a man's life," but the greatest day for a team, and that one man decided to showboat and draw attention to himself.
Oh. So that's what happened, is it?
"You're all misunderstanding what this male Dr's shirt means. Let me fem-splain it to you."
...was possible; dress was...
That was supposed to be two separate thoughts but the semicolon was lost. Hope that clarifies if anybody reads my comment.
Let me be first to joke about frictionless clothing.
And on a serious note, a red shirted crewmember aboard the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) is not in fact particularly likely to be killed. Their casualty rate is proportional to their share of the total crew. (Keep your Redshirt on: A Bayesian Exploration.) So why would a myth grow up around an item of clothing like this, when the math tells us otherwise? Perhaps it's not unrelated to the demand that clothing must make a statement--viz. a fashion statement. This is the part where Uhuru teases Dr. Spock, and all the nerds in the audience reflexively side with Dr. Spock. Wouldn't it be better to be logical?
"That fashion is unnecessary seems untrue. Humanity sends signals through dress and with hair."
See, that's what I mean. Fashion used to signal differences in class far more than it does now. And I suppose tribal differences could be stretched to be included as fashion. One might suggest that fashion could be used to inhibit activity, such as a corset or a bustle.
But here's the thing. The shape and texture of any given fashion is almost irrelevant, so long as some difference is signaled. Wearing a hat with certain feathers is no more intrinsically meaningful than wearing a hat with certain flowers. So, fashion is almost useless, except to conform with some idea that already exists. It creates nothing, per se, it merely confirms acceptance of an already established meme.
Am I thinking deeply enough?
By fashion, I mean to include all of the clothing that everyone wears.
It's still less important than being on the surface of the earth, which - given that the earth revolves around the sun in space - is part of what I mean to include by "space travel".
What do you suppose is less important, in the broad span of human culture, than institutional law instruction
Gay marriage.
Althouse never answered Blogger CB_Editor when he asked:
"Ann, what specifically do you find offensive about the shirt?
I'm seriously curious."
Well, I'm not Althouse, but I find the shirt tacky from a purely aesthetic viewpoint. It's unprofessional, but obviously his workplace does not have the same dress code as a K Street law firm.
However, from a feminist POV, what exactly is offensive about it? CB Editor asks a good question. I initially read that it showed "S & M images" so I was expecting to see naked women on leashes or something. Instead, there are comic book images of scantily clad women brandishing guns. They're not nude, they're not in submissive positions, actually they look pretty bad ass, so what IS the problem, really?
The women remind me a little of the Frank Frazetta posters that were pasted on the walls of quite a few college guys I knew back in the day.
The women who are "offended" by this shirt and say this is the reason there are no women in STEM should be required to explain it to the women in Afghanistan. Or in any Muslim dominated country. Or in Africa where estimated 40% of women are actually raped rather than anecdotally raped.
There is actual misogyny out there. You are not the target of it. This is a bunch of nobodies trying to be somebody. It is hard to do something for women who actually suffer repression. That is why it is mostly men doing it.
It is hard to be more pathetic than a feminist that lives in the US under the protection of the men and women in the US Armed Forces. Unless you are a feminist in Europe and your country lives under our protection.
"Clothing is a big part of nearly everyone's life, a huge part of our visual world."
And yet, after going to a play and dinner earlier this evening with some people, I only vaguely, if at all, remember what any of them were wearing.
Clearly it's a big part of your world, but your world isn't everyone's world.
Trashhauler:
Wearing ones pants on the ground (in reference to the American Idol performer) is a cultural marker. Tattoos are cultural markers. Each of thes is fashion, by some definitions of the word fashion. I took Althouse to mean a very broad concept of fashion.
Also, we agree that no one fashion necessarily has any more intrinsic value. But the Soviets saw their utilitarian fashion as somehow more valuable. And Manolo shoes are the least utilitarian fashion accessories I can imagine butthey arestrong signals nonetheless. IOW, fashion holds more value for those who believe it so.
I don't think I called the shirt "offensive." I said it was loud and attention-getting and that Taylor must have meant something and that some people heard it as disrespectful to women. And Taylor retracted the message whatever it was. He never explained or defended it, but people are now using it, as if they are somehow on his side. But they aren't, really.
I think it was a bad idea to draw so much attention to himself when he was a member of a team. And, personally, I don't think it's appealing for a man to cover himself with pictures of women. It's like: a man has breasts! That's never a good look.
"By fashion, I mean to include all of the clothing that everyone wears."
So what you really meant to say is "Clothes are more important than space travel"? Hard to argue with that. You know what else is more important than space travel? Food. Water.
"I think it was a bad idea to draw so much attention to himself when he was a member of a team. And, personally, I don't think it's appealing for a man to cover himself with pictures of women. It's like: a man has breasts! That's never a good look."
Professor, do you think his tattoos are in bad taste? I do but that is his choice.
The first rule of holes is to stop digging. Just a gentle reminder.
"We see others almost always only with their clothes as part of their image...."
Yes and no. I can dress as anyone I choose, but that doesn't make me the same as them even if I want it to. Here is an illustration that both supports and denies the importance of fashion:
In the Air Force, the uniform of the day is usually either the Air Force version of the basic ground combat uniform (whatever they call it these days) or a flight suit. Now, a flight suit is essential when operating an aircraft, but it is a stupid thing to wear in an office. Yet, almost invariably aircrew, especially pilots, will chose to wear the flight suit to the office. As much as the wings on their chests, it is a badge of belonging to a different class of people.
But put the flight suit on some ground type (as some idiot once did with some public affairs briefers) and it signaled an intent to deceive. It did not matter that the ground type isn't wearing wings, the flight suit alone was the signal.
But here's the thing. The flight suit sent a particular signal because of its intended function to be worn in the air. Its form follows the function. Most fashion, as we know it, does no such thing. You could add a skirt to the flight suit, or ruffles, and the changes do not add anything to the meaning. For the most part, fashion (in terms of minor differences, such hair style, and the color, cut, or length or a clothing item) have no inherent meaning.
Thinking deeply about fashion, as I was instructed to do, I think you can attribute some exploration of our planet to fashion. Silk from China, beaver hats from North American, to name two examples.
Wouldn't it have been awesome had Melvin Gordon (MELVIN GORDON!!!) worn that shirt after his performance today?
Well, I think so.
"Taylor must have meant something"
This is where so many of us part ways with you. Taylor might have meant something. We don't know if he even thought about it.
"I said it was loud and attention-getting and that Taylor must have meant something and that some people heard it as disrespectful to women. And Taylor retracted the message whatever it was. He never explained or defended it."
And, once again, I'll point out that you are over-thinking it, Professor. Unless they've been trained into it, nine times out of ten, beyond the immediate impulse men aren't thinking about it at all. :)
I had a ticket for the game, but stayed home because of a cold. :-(
A while back, there was a big to-do about the USMC and a proposed change over in hats (covers): link The original plan was to make all marines unisex in look but for the men to look like ladies. This didn't sit well. The ladies hat looks decidedly French and frenchifying or Corps -- however symbolically -- is just wrong. I just learned that that the USMC will go for a unisex hat but that it will be the "male" style.
Ladies will become men so to speak.
And, just to borrow something from our feminist friends, I may dress like a slut, but that doesn't make me a slut. Everyone is expected to look past the external and acknowledge the inner dignity. Or something.
Unless, of course, one believes that form follows function, in which case I'm probably a slut.
Damn, now I'm confused all over again.
I'm wondering if it was more than just the shirt that set the feminists all atwitter -- he also used, in the words of a Guardian columnist, language that "stunk of a casual sexism too. Watch the video in the Mail’s version of this 'British scientist taking Twitter by storm' story, and you can hear Taylor refer to the Rosetta mission as 'the sexiest mission there’s ever been. She’s sexy, but I never said she was easy'.”
Oh, dear, oh dear. What a bad, bad boy he is.
Original Mike said...
So what you really meant to say is "Clothes are more important than space travel"? Hard to argue with that. You know what else is more important than space travel? Food. Water.
I was relieved to hear that too because at first I Althouse was arguing that "fashion" meant what Heidi Klum et al. deem "important," especially after her "auf'd" comment earlier
What Heidi Klum and Timm Gunn purvey is relatively unimportant -- however addicting it is to females.
Ann Althouse said...
"I don't think I called the shirt "offensive." I said it was loud and attention-getting and that Taylor must have meant something and that some people heard it as disrespectful to women. And Taylor retracted the message whatever it was. He never explained or defended it, but people are now using it, as if they are somehow on his side. But they aren't, really."
1. How on gods green earth is that shirt disrespectful? Ugly yes and not my style. But disrespectful? Seriously?
2. I agree he is a weakling and he is feeding the harpies that live off of mens tears. You are right I don't really consider him on my side. But he did something incredible and I am very interested in our ability to land on asteroids. And more men and women like him need to create actual progress. We need more people like this akward nerd out there pushing forward.
Conversely we need fewer feminists and SJW's. Less lawyering. Less government. Less bureaucracy sucking the life out of pioneers. Fewer parasites who contribute nothing to society but their banal harping and assaults on good men and women. The same harpies and boot lickers feeding on his sorrow spent their time railing against wars that were helping women in other countries. Women who actually face repression.
Ann Althouse said...I think it was a bad idea to draw so much attention to himself when he was a member of a team.
And I ask again for a ruling on the Bobak Ferdowsi case. From my earlier comment:
See, this is a very clever tactic; Prof A is smart and rhetorically skilled. This frames the situation as one where an individual showboated and took attention away from the team effort (by purposefully drawing attention to himself through unconventional sartorial choices). If that was actually what was being debated Althouse would be right (although still counter to the "do what you want, wear what you want" 60's hippie ethos that many folks on the left use to criticize aesthetic judgments from buttoned down squares). But that is not at all what this is about, as I shall demonstrate.
Remember the reactions to Bobak Ferdowsi? No? He's the NASA Mohawk guy who garnered so much attention during the Curiosity Mars landing. The other members of Mission Control had conventional haircuts, but Bobak sported a mohawk with bright coloration and patterns (stars, etc). He acquired a lot of attention that would otherwise have been focused on the mission or the team, right? Was he widely criticized for that? No, he was in fact widely praised. By the President, even! He was in the First Lady's box for the 2013 State of the Union. Ferdowsi was a systems engineer and as such was a more minor player (of a larger team) than Dr. Taylor is of his.
I understand why one would want to frame this issue as one about a team member showboating at the expense of their team. It's not, but you'd have a more-defensible case that this isn't about feminism per se if it was. As my example shows, however, the Media does not object to showboating when they approve of the showboater/when the context of that showboating doesn't offend feminists.
Ann Althouse wrote: By fashion, I mean to include all of the clothing that everyone wears. It's important for basic survival, comfort, and protection, and it's a powerful mode of expression for the wearer and the designer. It's intimately tied to the body and thus to our personal presentation. We see others almost always only with their clothes as part of their image, and it affects how we feel and think about them. Clothing is a big part of nearly everyone's life, a huge part of our visual world.
LOL. Seriously... come back to this in a couple of weeks, "think deeply" about it, and tell us you don't feel the least bit silly.
Why do I feel as if I just helped write someone's Feminism and Fashion 204 term paper?
Notwithstanding the playground journalism, it would seem that the limits of orientation and expression will be tested after all. People seem unwilling to defer reconciliation of selective exclusion or pro-choice principles to a future generation.
Who would have guessed what lurked beneath the generational liberal veneer and corporate feminism. Actually, the character of this degenerative ideology and for-profit movement was well exposed in the last several decades. It's not about the shirt, despite Feltman et al purported interest.
I wonder who will succeed to define religion or moral philosophy in the 21st century.
Bullshit. They didn't just criticize him. They threatened his livelihood.
"Bullshit. They didn't just criticize him. They threatened his livelihood."
Hey, he "ruined" one of the seminal moments in astronomical exploration by wearing a shirt. It's almost like it didn't happen. What should be the punishment for that if not exile, to Pluto or somewhere similarly remote?
As for Taylor trying to communicate something through his shirt, it's commonplace for a geek to do something that he thinks is going to come off as cool that really comes off as awkward. (That's part of what makes a geek a geek.) The nice thing to do is to let it go by.
I don't like the shaming of geeks for being geeks.
I'm WAY late to this but here I am. Someone on Twitter dug up a picture of this humorless twat taking a selfie of herself a t-shirt featuring a half-naked portrait of one of the characters from Dragonball Z. (I've been looking for it but it must have been flushed down the memory hole)
And then she has the gall to feign offense with someone elses fashion choices? Shut the fuck up!
In the grand scheme of the universe, what the fuck does it matter? Tempest in a tea pot? No ... just an excuse for a Sister of the Perpetually Offended to get her name splashed across the web. I have to commend her. It worked.
Comment quantity has dropped since Crack went on hiatus, Professor. Good job taking a position guaranteed to break the 300 mark. Well done.
Althouse, my ex is a computer programmer and I can assure you that clothes are not a means of personal expression for him. He is entirely oblivious to what he wears. I can't tell you the number of times I took a look at what he had on, said "I'm not going out to dinner with you if you're wearing that" and went into the closet to find something more appropriate - or just something that matched (he has blue-green colorblindness, which doesn't help). He didn't protest because he didn't care.
He had no sexy lady shirts in his closet (thank God), but if someone had given him such a shirt, he would have worn it, unless I was around to veto the choice. Hey, it's clean, it fits, it's comfortable, it will do. Wearing it to insult women or attract attention wouldn't have entered his mind.
Actually, Joe, many want the folks making the publicity to be decently dressed.
That's not STEM, that's publicity. Even then, the people who care are the pinhead MBAs who don't know a fucking thing about anything.
Moreover, if you go to a high tech conferences, you'd probably be embarrassed by the "fashion." (It isn't suit and ties--if a presenter shows up in a suit and tie, science/engineering types know he's full of shit.)
Way to backtrack, Althouse. Fashion != clothing except in the minds of elitist snobs. If you meant clothing, why the hell didn't you say "clothing"?
And you wonder why most people think lawyers are arrogant dicks.
Imagine that a picture of Obama surfaces, taken a year ago, while he is golfing or something, and he is wearing the same shirt.
The feminists would say not one fucking thing about it. Not one word.
Because it is only ever about power to the feminists. They are the mean girls and bullies, because it works for them.
Not so hard to figure out, but some people have a blind spot.
He's just a typical geek with eccentric tendencies. He didn't need to have the feminazi lynch mob go after him.
This is why science/engineering nerdy types will seek out small startups where they will only work with other nerdy men.
The Brownshirts made a fashion statement.
On a related note:
Fashion! Turn to the left
Fashion! Turn to the right
Oooh, fashion!
We are the goon squad
and we're coming to town
Beep-beep
Beep-beep
Between this and "Space Oddity" Bowie seems to really have seen this one coming.
I'm sure that every man has had, at one time in his life, the Lucky Shirt in which, when worn, he always got laid. I've had three of them. And a pair of Lucky underpants.
No. Just no.
I respect your writing and thinking, Ms. Althouse, but on this you are dead wrong, and Reynolds is right.
To begin with, this isn't even about the man's shirt. That's just the pretext. If that hadn't been available, some other target of opportunity would have been chosen. This is a toxic example of the sort of culture-war poison that the Left's been spewing for years, and that keeps advancing because it doesn't get resisted.
It's of the same ilk as the supposed outrage over 'macaca', or any number of other 'offenses'. It's an example of the same thing(albeit at a lower intensity) as the the orchestrated campaign of genuine hate and phony moral outrage aimed at Brenden Eich. It's an example (again albeit much milder) of the same thinking that's driving the attempt to redefine rape on the college campuses to include pretty much anything and everything.
If you engage it as if it were legitimate, you fall into the trap. The shirt itself is trivial, and the outrage is fake, for the most part. What's real is the effort to press a culture war agenda, and that is what they are deadly serious about.
No. Just no.
I respect your writing and thinking, Ms. Althouse, but on this you are dead wrong, and Reynolds is right.
To begin with, this isn't even about the man's shirt. That's just the pretext. If that hadn't been available, some other target of opportunity would have been chosen. This is a toxic example of the sort of culture-war poison that the Left's been spewing for years, and that keeps advancing because it doesn't get resisted.
It's of the same ilk as the supposed outrage over 'macaca', or any number of other 'offenses'. It's an example of the same thing(albeit at a lower intensity) as the the orchestrated campaign of genuine hate and phony moral outrage aimed at Brenden Eich. It's an example (again albeit much milder) of the same thinking that's driving the attempt to redefine rape on the college campuses to include pretty much anything and everything.
If you engage it as if it were legitimate, you fall into the trap. The shirt itself is trivial, and the outrage is fake, for the most part. What's real is the effort to press a culture war agenda, and that is what they are deadly serious about.
When I wear one of my Lucky Shirts I am making a statement: Women, I am irresistible to you. Submit to the shirt: I will see your panties. If you are wearing any. Which is a fashion statement in itself.
He should've worn a pair of pink velour sweatpants with the word "JUICY" emblazoned on his ass. THAT would be making a statement. Science CAN be juicy.
I have followed women wearing the "JUICY' sweatpants for blocks. Depending on the buttocks.
Women who are wearing the pink velour "JUICY' sweatpants are making a statement: "Look at my ass."
And I say: statement accepted.
"Think deeply" is Althousian for "because I said so, and I would never say anything less than perfectly well thought out (just ask my students)". That this form of argument also often becomes click-bait is just a bonus.
Marty Keller at 9:17 pm: well said.
that Taylor must have meant something
Yeah, he meant "Doesn't this shirt look cool with my tats!"
You simply don't understand men in any deep way. You disagree with him on his choices. That doesn't meant that he was thinking about the things you think about even if you believe it was impossible for him no to. (Please excuse the dangling participle, I can't help it, I am male.)
My problem is with people who think the shirt is somehow sexist. What it is is an affront to third wave feminism. Whatever. That's like saying it was an affront to Marxism. Sure the man apologized, and sure, we are not really "on his side"; he has his career to worry about so we will never know what he thinks. The side we are on is the side that rejects this kind of twitter gestapo tactic pushing an ideology on the rest of us.
He was mad an example of, and the many of us resent that.
We see others almost always only with their clothes as part of their image, and it affects how we feel and think about them.
I don't remember how anybody at work dressed except the secretary with the big boobs and suspenders.
As so often, Freeman Hunt sums it up. The geek's girlfriend made him a cool shirt. If he thought about the PC "appropriateness" of it at all, which I doubt, he probably figured it was fine because she made it. And then the harpies landed.
From what I can see, imagery like this is routine in the SF world, and is seen by men and women as funny, cool and vaguely ironic. The key word being funny, which is missing these days from way too many people's vocabularies.
Also, if we're going to talk about taking offense, I take offense at the idea that women are such fragile fashion-focused blossoms that a goofy shirt would keep them out of STEM. Any woman who doesn't do STEM because some guy might have a shirt on that she doesn't like should definitely pick something less challenging to do, like maybe basketweaving. STEM -- and all of us -- will be better off without her.
Matt Taylor is simultaneously both the dumbest and the smartest man I've read of lately.
Althouse is right. Taylor deserves every kudo and brickbat being thrown at him. And those of you who are using Einstein's lack of socks or a NASA scientist's Mohawk haircut as analogies are so far off base you'll never find the field again. No socks does NOT equate to semi-naked women.
Yes. He asked for it. He got it. Now can we get back to science?
creeper
fashion is more important than space travel
Anybody can do fashion. Only a few amazing people can do space travel.
Perhaps this is not a bad time to point out that Ann Althouse is exhibiting the kind of disdain for the “stupid” American people Professor Gruber, a fellow academic, does. Glenn Reynolds is fond of pointing out that academia is contemptuous of the rest of America, even as it fattens off the public teat. For most of America, the totalitarian desire for academia to dominate the stupid proles via lying and obfuscation was not front-and-center. Thanks to Gruber, many more people are aware and that’s a good thing. Ann’s dictat that “Fashion is more important than space travel” is just such an example. Where did that non-sequitur come from? It’s a nonsense statement, but it’s caught lots of commenters here in its net, trying to figure out what Althouse means. But like Gruber’s explanations about how great ObamaCare was going to be, it’s neatly designed to have it mean whatever you want it to mean. Very much like Obama, whose journey through life was smoothed by holding a mirror up to his observers who saw themselves in the reflection. It was enough to get the Althouse vote.
Thanks for your opinion creeper. Head on over and join your side.
Ann Althouse said...
I don't think I called the shirt "offensive." I said it was loud and attention-getting and that Taylor must have meant something and that some people heard it as disrespectful to women. And Taylor retracted the message whatever it was. He never explained or defended it, but people are now using it, as if they are somehow on his side. But they aren't, really.
I think it was a bad idea to draw so much attention to himself when he was a member of a team. And, personally, I don't think it's appealing for a man to cover himself with pictures of women. It's like: a man has breasts! That's never a good look.
You have no idea what his part of the team dynamic was/is.
Jesus. I guess it's too much to give the guy his moment in history.
It's not like he splooged on blue dress or anything.
But first let's discus that shitty tie Dr. Saulk.
Petty, narrow minded, parochial scolds.
I think people who are asserting that Taylor is a geek with no fashion sense (and a cavalier attitude toward his clothing) are wrong.
When you read the backstory it's clear that he chose this shirt very deliberately. It isn't quite said explicitly, but the friend who made the shirt said that he asked her to make it, and she made it custom for him. It sure sounds like he may have ordered up this exact shirt for this occasion (I'm inferring that in part because he also has gotten tattoos specifically related to this mission.)
So I do think Althouse is right about him trying to express something with the shirt.
The question then is, so what? Why is it offensive? That is where the feminists went off the rails. Women have become schizophrenic over sexuality in fashion, and then blame men for not following their mixed messages (it's passive aggressive, really- using their sexuality as a means of power.) There is a huge fashion industry for sexy clothing for women, and yet men are supposed to pretend that women don't want to be ogled? It's ridiculous.
And yes, there's an argument to be made that any distracting clothing should be worn in casual settings only, not the workplace...but how does that not also apply to women wearing clothes that accentuate their bodies? It may not be an exact analogy, but women dressing sexily in office settings is certainly as distracting for men as is a shirt that might make some women uncomfortable with its messaging. I would think it must be a hostile work environment for men to be around scantily clad women all day while they are supposed to pretend not to notice and can have their jobs threatened if they do notice,
So if we're going to make an issue of this at all then the issue should be that everyone, male and female, should dress in a more utilitarian style for work and stop trying to express themselves in that setting.
If all clothing through time is fashion, then space travel would include religion. Man's attempt to understand the vast space above him.
Anyway, if people had merely said they didn't like his shirt, that would be fine. They needed to turn it into the message *they* wanted to send though, and make the event all about themselves. Make him a bad person.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, screech.
I don't get the impression that Althouse's inference about him upstaging the team is accurate. They seem like a tight knit group, justifiably proud of their accomplishment, and if there was any thought to his clothing at all it was probably more like them chuckling over "Matt being Matt."
My impression could be wrong too, of course, but that was the vibe I got. Besides, it's probably a case where negative PR is still PR, in that a lot of people who ordinarily don't pay attention to science have now heard about the Rosetta project.
The twaddle of someone who at least once found it to be acceptable to vote for Obama...
"And I will be more provocative: In the broad span of human culture, fashion is more important than space travel.
--Ann Althouse"
Reality...
"If man survives for as long as the least successful of the dinosaurs—those creatures whom we often deride as nature's failures—then we may be certain of this: for all but a vanishingly brief instant near the dawn of history, the word 'ship' will mean— 'spaceship.'
--Ann Althouse"
If all clothing through time is fashion, then space travel would include religion. Man's attempt to understand the vast space above him.
Or astronomy, which was often intertwined with religion. The comparison of a broad topic such as fashion/clothing to the narrow (and recent) one is misleading. We could reverse the effect by comparing astronomy/religion to nanofiber textiles- which of those has been more important in human history?
"Do you want to shut up the chatter that you think is too frivolous?"
Not at all. We want to laugh at the imbeciles--great conficuis quote, hope it's real--who think it isn't frivolous.
Prof Reynolds has it right. The Atlantic's science editor diminishes herself by making a public fuss over a tacky shirt. Prof Althouse's statement that fashion is more important to humanity than science is almost as silly as the fuss over Taylor's shirt. If fashion were more important than scientific achievement, we wouldn't be hearing so much about a shortage of women in "STEM" professions.
Fashion is to women as science and technology is for men. Males compete with (mostly) males in pseudo comat like science and technology. Women compete with women with fashion. But clothing isn't fashion, which is why Ann is wrong here. Yes, at one point in history, fashion drove history, and esp exploration (Place we have in MT is near what was a fur trading post 200 years ago).
Anyone who has watched Big Bang a bit probably understands about how little society's fashion dictates mean to people to nerds like the team that hit the comment with the probe. On that show, their idea of fashion is wearing Star Trek outfits in public.
My theory of why there aren't more women in physics and engineering is that they are more susceptible to peer pressure and worry about fashion, when the guys are worried about the project. And, yes, physicists are the smartest group of people out there. Most PhDs have on average the same IQs as most other doctorates (JD, MD, etc). The big exceptions apparently are physics (higher) and education (average - where most doctorates score one STD above average). Combine this with the fact that the IQ curves of the two sexes have equivalent means, but the male STD is greater, meaning more really, really smart guys, and really, really dumb guys. Which is part of why women don't do as well in physics.
Back though to my original point - males and male culture, and not females and female culture, are what have brought humanity from living in caves to hitting commets six years out with a probe, as well as planes, trains, cars, the Internet, computers, etc. Without men, women would still be cooking on open flames in caves, instead of whining on TV or the Internet (all invented mostly by guys) about this poor guy's sartorial mistakes.
New post alert.
"Fashion is to women as science and technology is for men. Males compete with (mostly) males in pseudo comat like science and technology. Women compete with women with fashion."
Most fashion designers (at a high level of achievement) are men. Maybe women are more enthusiastic consumers of fashion than men, but you are not keeping your analogy straight. You're comparing designers and consumers. Who are the consumers of science? Do men outnumber women in buying and using the things that science has designed for us? I don't see the evidence of that.
In any case, men wear clothes just as much as women do. I'm not seeing any naked people out there.
The new post, which I refer you to, quotes Mark Twain: "Naked people have little or no influence on society.."
I just hope Althouse gets a cameo walk on when the writers of The Big Bang Theory revisit this issue with Wolowitz wearing the shirt. Perhaps she can be heard saying, "Think deeply," but not in a depraved kind of way.
Fashion is just a way for rich fools to lord it over poor fools who think they want to be fashionable. Please see the ridiculous clothes worn by Sarah Jessica Parker, in Sex and the City,. The clothes weren't saying, "Look at me," they were saying, "You're poor." Sometimes they said, "I'm a whore," but that's different.
Althouse:
"I don't see..."
Finally, everybody can agree.
I'm married to one of these guys. The really crazy smart, socially awkward, and clueless. He wouldn't wear this shirt but I've had to stop him from going into a meeting in an outfit that's not appropriate. That's just how they are. Glenn hit the nail on the head. This guy was absolutely clueless. These "ladies" went after the weaker guy cause they could. It was probably like high school all over again for him. No wonder the dude cried. You just had the most major accomplishment, but you're not good enough cause...you're clothes. Mean girls much?
He should have just held up the cover of Cosmo.
In the broad span of human culture, fashion is more important than space travel.
I thought deeply about that (for about 30 seconds which perhaps is longer than it deserved) and concluded it was a remarkably silly thing to say and hardly worthy of defense or debate.
Me 7:26 PM:
“Sure Ann, fashion is super important.
Fashion rules all of our destinies whether we want to admit it or not. Let's redefine fashion to mean everything that ever happens anywhere (which is about 1% rhetorically larger a definition than you are giving it already,) and now, we can say landing a space probe on a comet is just fashion, too! I love this style of debate: it's magic.”
Ann, 9:39 PM:
“By fashion, I mean to include all of the clothing that everyone wears. It's important for basic survival, comfort, and protection, and it's a powerful mode of expression for the wearer and the designer. It's intimately tied to the body and thus to our personal presentation. We see others almost always only with their clothes as part of their image, and it affects how we feel and think about them. Clothing is a big part of nearly everyone's life, a huge part of our visual world.”
Feel free to open your mind, read both of those a couple of times, and explain who hasn’t thought through the other argument enough.
This is why I take such issue with the feminist movement. If you wanted to take up a serious issue like how many women are employed currently at there, that was not the time and place. That was also not the way to go about it. Attacking that man, or "critiquing" his outfit, and insinuating his outfit showed why women didn't work there made no sense and just belitted the womens movement. It made it look petty. Which, it is. At this point, it lacks substance. Fashion over science, right? It doesn't really care about how many women are employed. It just wanted to make a man cry.
perception is reality.
Yeah, they did.
"And I will be more provocative: In the broad span of human culture, fashion is more important than space travel."
Barack Obama is greater than John McCain.
Is shitting more import than space travel? Let’s give it the Ann Althouse test. We can be fairly certain that if we stop people shitting for a week – OK give it two weeks for the really, really tough parts of humanity - and you wipe out humanity. Using formal logic we conclude that shitting is more important than fashion because fashion can’t wipe out humanity that fast. So if shitting is more important than fashion and fashion is more important than space travel, it is necessarily true that shitting is more important than space travel.
Now, is a shirt with images of scantily clad women with guns more or less important that shit? We leave that question up to feminists … of all ages.
Ann, you do get that those images on the shirt are straight out of the pulp science fiction right? Who do you think grow up to be space scientists except we geeks who grew up on Amazing Stories et al? Those women were not in lingerie, they were in their working clothes, as envisioned circa 1930 to 1950. And if you check those women in those rags, most of them were not wilting flowers but full partners of the men, doing heroic things regardless of their sex.
And in this case, the shirt was not at all offensive. And if seeing that shirt keeps even one woman out of STEM, then it really doesn't matter, because the first time she had to actually get up in someone's face to get her point across, she would be gone anyway.
No one will read this because it is number 349 - but - rather than crying he should have said, "Hey. Fuck off. I just landed a toaster on a rock ten years out. If you don't like my shirt you can bite me.
Then you can come launch your own toaster."
Most fashion designers (at a high level of achievement) are men.
But the designer of the shirt in question is a woman.
So, after thinking deeply on this I have come to these three conclusions.
1. The Jr. High principal who told my parents that it was my own fault I was being bullied because it wouldn't be happening to me if I would just "try harder to be normal and act like everyone else" was not being despicably unkind, but was warning me that appearances really are the most important thing. Or fashion is more important than science, as it were.
2. You can never be sure that Jr. High is over no matter how many decades it's been since you actually attended one. Separate yourself from the herd too far and the hyenas will take you down.
3. It's mean girls all the way down.
harrogate: "Damn. All these years I had remembered him giving the speech in the flight suit. Seriously, Drago, thanks for correcting me on that. I looked it up and you're right."
That's okay.
You were probably remembering the extended time Bush spent on deck after landing hugging and taking pics with the deck crew and aviators.
"'Most fashion designers (at a high level of achievement) are men.' But the designer of the shirt in question is a woman."
She didn't design the fabric, did she? Other than the fabric, it's quite ordinary.
She didn't design the fabric, did she? Other than the fabric, it's quite ordinary.
Fashion fail fashioned from fabricated fabric! Oh noes!
How closely have you studied the design?
If I recall correctly, it's not often that Project Runaway designers design their own fabrics. See, e.g., Season 7, Episode 10.
Ann wrote:
"Most fashion designers (at a high level of achievement) are men."
In fact they are Gay men, which completely changes the nature of the narrative. I don't know why you left that extremely salient point out. (Supreme oversimplification: most Gay men care deeply about fashion; most Geeks care not one iota.)
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This is my first post here (please pardon the length - I suffer from "Why say 100 words when 1000 would suffice?" Syndrome), so I'm going to be cautious and try to stick to some facts rather than my own opinions.
I have been disappointed at the Level One depth analysis I've seen all over the Internetsphere on this issue.
As I said on Twitter, "One thing I've learned from #shirtgate #shirtstorm today - people sure don't understand Rockabilly/Tiki/Alt-modeling/Pin-up culture much."
The girl who sewed (not designed) his shirt (which I see from your preceding(?) post you found on the AlohaLand.COM site) is his tattooist's girlfriend Elly, who (from her Facebook photos) is an alt-model tattoed type. The shirt itself is a WWII pin-up inspired "Gunner Girls" Hawaiian shirt with cartoon women with guns depicted, as well as what looks like a PT boat. (Some posters upthread have claimed it's Sci-Fi imagery, but I would claim it's not. I don't remember many PT boats in space.)
It's pretty obvious when you look at the shirt (as shown in your other post) that it's not "of lingerie-clad women" or "half-naked women" as the Feministas claim. It's fascinating to see how people twist things into their own agenda, especially when there is a photograph of the shirt clearly showing what's on it and what isn't.
I found pics of Dr. Taylor in other, non-offensive Hawaiian shirts; I also found a full length shot where he's sporting what must be the most lurid pair of purple socks ever - this man resides somewhere on the Kevin Smith - John Lasseter (Pixar) Asperger's axis of clothing sensibilities.
From poking around a bit more, it seems pretty clear that he is involved in the whole Tattooing/Rockabilly/Tiki/Alt-modeling/Pin-up culture, which has its own totems and 'fashion' (to drag that word back into it).
My theory is that he was thrilled to get that shirt from his friend, as a part of that culture. He got it for his birthday and wore it previously to work (determined from checking out his Facebook photos) before the comet landing; it wasn't specifically acquired for the landing. I think, Ms. Althouse, to ascribe ulterior motives to his clothing choice that day is disingenuous at best. "There is no spoon."
Additionally, in the YouTube video of his Rosetta/Philae tattoo session, he is wearing a Cannibal Corpse "Butchered At Birth" t-shirt, which I find hilarious - because I suspect far more people in the general population would probably find that offensive (go to Google Images and see for yourself) than a pin-up Hawaiian shirt. (He used to be in a Death Metal band, it turns out.)
All of this lead me to believe that this dude was a badass who had no more f*cks to give about what anyone thought of him or his clothing, which is why I was quite astonished at his pussying out and tearfully apologizing for it. He should've leaned straight into the camera and quoted Stephen Fry on being offended instead.
I'm late to this, but what you saw was a man reduced to tears at what should have been the moment of his greatest triumph because someone didn't like his shirt. The bullying was an evil act, and calling out an evil act for what it is, is always appropriate.
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