October 6, 2014

"At the time of reunification, Beijing pledged to endow Hong Kong with a 'high degree of autonomy' under a deal called 'one country, two systems.'"

"But it was a fragile conceit, and, this summer, it failed. The Communist Party had promised to give Hong Kong citizens the chance to vote for the territory’s top official in 2017, but, in August, Beijing released the details: only candidates acceptable to the central government would be permitted to run.... In the official media, the [protests] were portrayed as a disaster; an editorial in the People’s Daily published on October 1st warned that 'a small number of people who insist on resisting the rule of law and on making trouble will reap what they have sown.' But the costs of a crackdown— diplomatic isolation, recession, another alienated generation — would be incalculably higher than they were in 1989. China’s economy today is twenty-four times the size it was then, and Beijing aspires to leadership in the world.... "

From a piece by Evan Osnos in The New Yorker.

86 comments:

The Drill SGT said...

The article is the equivalent of Hashtag diplomacy. Unless there were actual repercussions because of China's action, the Leadership doesn't care what the New Yorker thinks.

The world will do nothing. The demonstration leaders will disappear. Hong Kong will vanish...

Pettifogger said...

"But the costs of a crackdown— diplomatic isolation, recession, another alienated generation — would be incalculably higher than they were in 1989"

Really? Who would impose those costs? Certainly not the US or the EU. Who then? Nobody.

Anonymous said...

I was hoping folks at the New Yorker would start focusing on democracy where it's really needed in the face of a still Communist, centrally planned economy flexing its muscle over a formerly much more free enclave.

Better to have them protest and seek their ideals outside the tent sometimes

mccullough said...

Nothing more naive than the New Yorker. How is that Obama fellow working out for them?

Anonymous said...

Of course, this would require backing away from the current progressive ledge, which at its roots is quite sympathetic to Communism and similar ideologies.

Perhaps amongst the cultured chatter, inside the right avant-garde brownstones, it's not quite safe to close the window and leave Obama on the ledge yet...

It's autumn, you know, a chill in the air, time to take refuge in some cover art and foreign democracy protests.

RecChief said...

at least they are demonstrating for something worthwhile. Here not so much.

traditionalguy said...

The Chinese rulers are scared of any popular group. They will beat up and arrest any promisor of Hope outside of state materialism.

That type of government has to keep its people happy by sharing with them the booty from conquest of nearby nations.

PB Reader said...

I'm sure Obama approves of Beijing's actions.

rhhardin said...

Derbyshire has a podcast this week largely on it.

tim maguire said...

The Drill SGT said...The world will do nothing. The demonstration leaders will disappear. Hong Kong will vanish...

Pettifogger said...Really? Who would impose those costs? Certainly not the US or the EU. Who then? Nobody.


Drill Sgt.'s last one--Hong Kong vanishing--is the repercussions, the costs. Who cares if there is no fallout from other governments? There will be fallout from people's money no longer flowing through Hong Kong. And that will be a disaster of historic proportions to China.

Don't underestimate the fragility of China's economy and, ultimately, China itself. It is far more like the Soviet Union than many realize.

William said...

Surprise, surprise.

Anyone who thought that PRC would allow any nuance of democracy to exist in Hong Kong is naïve, dangerously so.

When, oh when, is the "West" going to learn that other cultures play by their rules and not ours. And their rules are ... hello ... vastly different.

Michael said...

This was inevitable, of course. Hong Kong was permitted to think it was free when it was not and has not been since the handover. The bulk of finance has moved to Shanghai, the traditional home of China's financial firms. The people of Hong Kong have been fortunate to have made it this long without the iron hand.

I do not see any prospective martyrs here.

William said...

Hong Kong was formerly the a Royal Crown Colony of Hong Kong. They weren't even fascists like the Nationalists on Taiwan. They were imperialist lackeys.......How is it possible that these retrograde states achieved so much more in material comforts and human rights than the Red Chinese? Wise men like Walter Lippmann and Theodore White observed the Communist state and argued for its superiority. How could Pulitzer Prize winning journalists and pundits be wrong about anything of such great moment....,.Well, it was probably just an aberration. I'm sure the educated, forward looking thinkers are right about Obama.

YoungHegelian said...

I'm surprised it took Beijing 17 years to get around to putting the squeeze on Hong Kong.

Pres. Xi Jinping is riding a tiger with his attempts to take the PRC back to the top-down bad ole days of Mao. There are too many people in China now with interests outside the government's purview (e.g. religious faith, large business contracts with the outside world), and these groups have the capabilities to fight back in ways unavailable to the generation that suffered through the Great Leap Forward & the Cultural Revolution.

The central government needs to learn that if it wishes to be a world player, it needs to placate its restless natives at home, even if that means the central Party gives up some power. In a worst case scenario, China may be looking at a repeat of the Taiping Rebellion,, a huge rebellion which came seemingly out of nowhere.

Michael said...

While the writers of the New Yorker may be surprised at this turn of events, the bankers of London,New York, Berlin and Paris are not. They have long since moved their more important functions to Shanghai.

There will be no constraint of capital flows into or out of China if Hong Kong is brought to heel. Which it will be.

Michael said...

Another thought;

The bulk of the residents of Hong Kong, unlike the residents of Cairo or NY, are busy as beavers. They are capitalists before they are democrats or communists. They won't be lolling around in these protests for long, they have shit to do and money to make. It is pretty to think they will overthrow the mean Chinese but that is not what is going to happen. They don't have the leisure needed to launch a successful Occupy movement nor the desire to thwart their own instincts of survival and success.

Sebastian said...

The costs of cracking down may be high, but the costs of not cracking down would be higher.

Power trumps money.

n.n said...

China has assessed that Hong Kong's protectors are so deeply mired in debt, dysfunction, and intrigue, that they are impotent to serve their traditional role. Well, that, or an agreement has been reached. I wonder what collateral has been promised by each of the partner governments.

Hong Kong's response will depend on the terms of surrender. It's unlikely to develop as a French or even American revolution. It's more likely that Michael's insight will prove true. For most people, it's economy and family, as the insight in the Declaration of Independence is true.

Achilles said...

The new yorker isn't really decrying the action. If you read their article they are celebrating the fact a population is going to be smashed under the boot. They have been celebrating it in our country too.

Obama has been removing the US from world leadership for exactly this reason. The US was a singular event in world history where the general population was given actual freedom both economic and social. Obama and his masters have been eroding our economic freedom starting with Wilson and Roosevelt.

Make no mistake. They applaud the rise of a centralized power and the erosion of freedom there just as they implement it here.

Achilles said...

"Power trumps money."

The parallels between the Chicoms and the Obama administration are obvious at this point.

Drago said...

PB Reader said...
I'm sure Obama approves of Beijing's actions.

When has the left ever opposed a communist gov't cracking down on freedom protesters?

Quite the contrary. We have example after example of lefty "thought" leaders and celebrities lauding the left-wing governments for their crackdowns.

Including obama.

Of course, I should mention China's biggest cheerleader (and with the left, that's sayin' something), one Thomas Friedman.

Anonymous said...

Fund managers have been factoring the long-term inevitability of cracks in China's system since the very beginning.

cubanbob said...

Achilles said...
"Power trumps money."

The parallels between the Chicoms and the Obama administration are obvious at this point.

10/6/14, 11:03 AM"

The Chinese communists have made a bargain with the Chinese people: stay out of politics and we will let you get rich. Get involved in politics and we will smash you. That was the lesson taught to the Chinese youth in 1989 and that is the lesson that is being taught to Hong Kongers today albeit in a much less brutal fashion. While Shanghai has taken over a lot of what Hong Kong used to do, Hong Kong as it is is still valuable to China and will remain so for quite a while.

cubanbob said...

SOJO said...
Fund managers have been factoring the long-term inevitability of cracks in China's system since the very beginning.

10/6/14, 11:26 AM

True but fund managers really don't know the real situation so their ability to truly factor for the risk is in all probability far too understated. With all of the fraud and chicanery in China no one really trusts any numbers.

SteveR said...

Shocking developments. Who could have seen this?

lgv said...

Pettifogger said...
"But the costs of a crackdown— diplomatic isolation, recession, another alienated generation — would be incalculably higher than they were in 1989"

Really? Who would impose those costs? Certainly not the US or the EU. Who then? Nobody.


My first thought exactly. There will be no diplomatic isolation regardless of the party in charge in the US. Over half the population can't remember Tiananmen Square.

Once the deal was signed, it no longer mattered. Just like the Paris peace accords. It's like any of those wonderful deals we sign. If it is not feasible to enforce, then it will be kept.

Michael said...

Cubanbob:

You are right that no one trusts the numbers on Chinese P&Ls but HK is rather more reliant on dollars, deutschemarks and pounds arriving to pay for outbound goods than it is on a capital markets activities involving Chinese companies. I believe those matters are done on the Bund.

Your observation at 11:34 is spot on. That could have absolute massacres on HK Island or in Kowloon and a month later the city would be humming. There is too much entrepreneurial spirit in that City to be crushed. Dissidents could be eliminated entirely and people looking for an economic foothold would take their place in whatever job or enterprise they vacated.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

At the time of reunification, Beijing pledged to endow Hong Kong with a 'high degree of autonomy' under a deal called 'one country, two systems.'

Why would a group of people believe the pledges of someone looking to establish a communist dictatorship over them?

I wonder if they fell for that pledge about if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor too?

BarrySanders20 said...

"Of course, I should mention China's biggest cheerleader (and with the left, that's sayin' something), one Thomas Friedman."

Freidman could do a new column about how politically efficient we could be if a one-party government here, like that of China, could control who gets to run for the open and free election they promised.

As part of the column, he assumes without mentioning that his ideal one-party government would be leftist. But not authoritarian.

Well, OK, authoritarian, but only in a good way, as this government would be populated with the right people, with the right credentials, from the right universities and who think the right way. People like Thomas Freidman, who loves China.

n.n said...

There is nothing we can do or say. The Chinese enjoy all of the leverage. They have a nuclear deterrent; a 2 million man standing army; collateral holdings inside America and foreign holdings; integrated economic interests (e.g. "green" technology); beholden political parties; and counter-claims to human rights violations (e.g. abortion). They have extracted sufficient value from their partners and no longer concern themselves with perceptions of mistrust.

mariner said...

Pettifogger,

Really? Who would impose those costs? Certainly not the US or the EU. Who then? Nobody.

The Gods of the Copybook Headings.

Hong Kong became the success it is by free enterprise with very little government regulation. Hong Kong Chinese had a great deal of both personal and economic freedom.

Beijing seems about to kill the goose laying the golden eggs. Once the goose is dead I'm sure the eggs will keep appearing by magic.

tim in vermont said...

Communists lie just like other lefties, alert the media!

Michael said...

mariner;"Hong Kong became the success it is by free enterprise with very little government regulation. Hong Kong Chinese had a great deal of both personal and economic freedom.

Beijing seems about to kill the goose laying the golden eggs. Once the goose is dead I'm sure the eggs will keep appearing by magic."

Not so. The protests are over who can run for office, not against repressive taxation or regulations that stifle commerce. On the contrary, because of what you assert in your first paragraph, Hong Kong is arguably one of the most free economies in the world, fueled by millions of independent contractors, entrepreneurs, all hustling around the clock.

More importantly many think of Hong Kong through a thirty year old lens when the city was the center of commerce of the vast country.
Today there are ten or more cities that did not exist thirty years ago, many with multi-million populations, many competing with Hong Kong. The residents of HK know this and are not likely to lay down their businesses or sacrifice them to a notion of "democracy" that is not bred in their bones.

Lyle said...

What is going on in Hong Kong is what a real protest looks like. We don't have those very often in the U.S.

I hope they're successful in the long run, but it looks like Beijing will get its authoritarian way this time.

God damn the one party system in China.

Anonymous said...

What would happen if China suddenly decided to take over Taiwan? Who could possibly stop them?

Rusty said...

t-man said...
What would happen if China suddenly decided to take over Taiwan? Who could possibly stop them?

By treaty, we're supposed to side with Taiwan.

kcom said...

Is it really possible the economy is 24 times bigger in only 25 years? I know it's growing fast, but really?

Michael said...

A look at the regional papers indicates that the gigantic protest has fizzled out. 100 people at Admiralty last night.

These people are too busy for this stuff. Monday morning and back to work.

gerry said...

"He (President Xi Jinping) has staked his Presidency on a “great renewal” of China, a nationalist project that leaves little room for regional identities."
[emphasis added]

This is one of the standard traditional ploys of the Communist aristocracy in China when internal economic conditions become horrible: nationalism to the point of xenophobia. Xi will rally the rest of the nation against the threats posed by foreigners via Hong Kong. The result will be a free pass for whatever happens.

Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan know this is a very dangerous time for them because of Xi's methods. I think the Vietnamese are especially wary as well.

Carnifex said...

Someone once noted that "bullets are cheap".

There's your answer.

As for the New Yorker. At least they didn't publish a a cover bragging about the "Taste of Africa". (they didn't think of it)

Drago said...

gerry: "Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan know this is a very dangerous time for them because of Xi's methods."

You are neglecting to factor in the fact that the entire world recognizes just how feckless obama happens to be and they are all acting accordingly.

Rusty said...

Hong Kong became the success it is by free enterprise with very little government regulation. Hong Kong Chinese had a great deal of both personal and economic freedom.

Precisely.
There is no other way an island with no natural resources other than its people and their freedoms can become so enourmously wealthy.

gerry said...

You are neglecting to factor in the fact that the entire world recognizes just how feckless obama happens to be and they are all acting accordingly.

Agreed. Obama aggravates everything.

n.n said...

Also, China is already operating with a largely "free" market system. The communists are principally concerned with leverage over society and share of profits. Otherwise, they are mostly hands off and operate implicitly through intermediaries. The same expectations and organization as the Soviets. Not so different from the progression of our own system. I suspect the different responses can be attributed to the rate of assimilation or acclimation of the native people.

The Crack Emcee said...

Oh who cares?

There's no justice HERE and you want me to focus on China?

White supremacist distractions are they name,...

Drago said...

CR

Crack: "White supremacist distractions are they name,..."

Hey, I thought you said no ebonics!!

And then you go and lapse right back in.

Make up your mind confused black man.

Drago said...

CR

Crack: "White supremacist distractions are they name,..."

LOL

Asian supremacy dummy.

The Drill SGT said...

Carnifex said...
Someone once noted that "bullets are cheap".


Very cheap in China. They bill the families the cost of 1 pistol round...

damikesc said...

...because the world is REALLY going to hold China's feet to the fire on anything.

They aren't governed by Republicans so the usual gaggle of bitchers and moaners can't get excited.

Alex said...

It looks like to me that China is being recidivist. They don't care about capitalism or providing a higher standard of life for their citizens. They want vengeance.

The Crack Emcee said...

John Oliver did a show last night on a law that allows cops to openly steal from the American citizens they stop - even if they've committed no crime - and what are you talking about?

Injustice in fucking China.

Oh, what fucking patriots you are,...

Mark said...

Eventually, somebody always shoots the goose that lays the golden eggs.

The Crack Emcee said...

Mark,

"Eventually, somebody always shoots the goose that lays the golden eggs."

Wait - are we discussing slavery's ending?

The death of Jim Crow?

I don't get it,....

Beldar said...

Only Lefties like those who write and edit The New Yorker could possibly be surprised that Red China's solemn assurances to the world have turned out to be calculated, deliberate lies.

Tomorrow's lesson: "That cherry red glow on a stove burner is, surprisingly, not an invitation to touch!"

Drago said...

CR

Crack: "I don't get it,...."

Truer words have never been spoken.

Anonymous said...

Beijing is as trustworthy as Obama.

The anti-protester rates were: HK$300 to tear up a banner, $500 to beat up a kid.

Kirk Parker said...

Crack, you fool: the libertarian "right" has been going on against assett forfeiture, and overuse of SWAT, and the like. In fact, really really REALLY white guy Radley Balko has been leading the charge, including numerous hard-hitting articles decrying the incarceration and sentencing of Corey Maye.

Where the hell--excuse me, where the f*ck*ing hell, are you all your web posts in support of Corey Maye?

Drago said...

CR

Kirk Parker: "Crack, you fool: the libertarian "right" has been going on against assett forfeiture, and overuse of SWAT, and the like. In fact, really really REALLY white guy Radley Balko has been leading the charge, including numerous hard-hitting articles decrying the incarceration and sentencing of Corey Maye."

Crack doesn't know that.

More importantly, he doesn't want to know that. It gets in the way of the narrative.

Most importantly crack doesn't want you to know that either.

His only hope is that crack-level ignorance becomes pandemic, and given the state of leftist control of education, we are just about there.

Kirk Parker said...

mariner,

"Hong Kong became the success it is by free enterprise with very little government regulation."

Deliberately so. I forget which clear thinker said the following (highly paraphrased): "The economic miracle of Hong Kong can be largely explained by the fact the the British government reserved to themselves all authority over economic matters in Hong Kong, and then did nothing with that power."

Revenant said...

Why would a group of people believe the pledges of someone looking to establish a communist dictatorship over them? I wonder if they fell for that pledge about if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor too?

Um... the people of Hong Kong didn't actually WANT to be handed over to China, you know.

EMD said...

"John Oliver did a show last night on a law that allows cops to openly steal from the American citizens they stop - even if they've committed no crime - and what are you talking about?"

Read about that particular case on Reason.com, you know, that Democrat Party mouthpiece.

Alex said...

Crack, I'm listening to The Civil War by Shelby Foote. In 1864, it was policy by certain Confederate brigades to not take any black Union soldiers prisoner. Basically they were all executed in many instances.

Douglas said...

I love Hong Kong and am terribly depressed about what China is doing to it. Hong Konger have no leverage and the rest of the world has no leverage, either. China doesn't need to kill the demonstratators as in Tienamen Square, it can just wait them out. All Secretary Xi cares about is maintaining the Party's monopoly on power on the mainland and he will not agree to anything in Hong Kong that might have even the slightest adverse affect on that.

Michael K said...

"Don't underestimate the fragility of China's economy and, ultimately, China itself. It is far more like the Soviet Union than many realize."

That is correct and here is a post from a retired diplomat that points out some hazards.

I have found it impressive over the years to see how China has transformed itself from a poor, brutal authoritarian police state into a poor, brutal, authoritarian police state with large foreign currency reserves. Sorry, but shoddily-built skyscrapers, and streets clogged with Fords, BMWs, Lexus, and Buicks, and lined with luxury stores and restaurants cannot hide the hard facts.

The rest is worth reading.

Drago said...

Michael K: ""Don't underestimate the fragility of China's economy and, ultimately, China itself."

Something along the lines of "America gets a cold, China gets pneumonia" as well as "You owe the bank $10,000 and can't pay, you've got a problem. You owe the bank $10 million dollars and can't pay the bank has a problem."

It's not that simple of course, but Michael's link was very interesting.

sojerofgod said...

Ok, the first lie is that Beijing promised anything. Didn't you see that The Chinese premier had his fingers crossed behind his back at the signing ceremony?
Two, that was like, years ago man! how can you expect anyone alive today to be bound by an agreement made between old dead white guys and anyone, including old dead Asian guys? I mean seriously.

Rusty said...

Revenant said...
Why would a group of people believe the pledges of someone looking to establish a communist dictatorship over them? I wonder if they fell for that pledge about if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor too?

Um... the people of Hong Kong didn't actually WANT to be handed over to China, you know.

No they didn't, but the lease was up and the Brits proved to be as good as their word.

Revenant said...

Hong Konger have no leverage and the rest of the world has no leverage, either

I don't know why people keep saying that. Chinese-American trade is more important to the Chinese economy than it is to the American economy. Ditto for Chinese-EU trade.

If your ability to harm an opponent exceeds their ability to harm you, you've got leverage.

Michael K said...

Another quote from that piece by Diplomad:

As a senior Vietnamese diplomat once told me, "Everybody wants to be American. Nobody wants to be Chinese. Even the Chinese want to be American." This from a man whose father, he said, died fighting the US Marines in Hue, and whose own son was studying in California. Unless you're wealthy and can isolate yourself from Chinese reality, China is an unpleasant place to live for a foreigner, especially one from another Asian country. It has little in the way of "soft power" or uplifting universal values; it does not welcome immigrants, and views foreigners with the same sort of suspicion and disdain that Chinese citizens themselves find in much of East Asia.

Has Obama ever heard this ? As the story went about the German general and his lady friend. When he showed her a map of Russia and a map of Germany, she said "Liebchen, has the Fuhrer seen this map?"

Scott said...

2013 population (est):
Hong Kong: 7.188 million
China ex HK: 1.356 billion

2013 GDP per capita in USD (est):
Hong Kong: $38,123.52
China ex HK: $6,814.15

I wish I remembered the name of the person who compared China's possession of Hong Kong to an elephant holding a gold watch. China will eventually crush Hong Kong in spite of itself.

Scott said...

My apologies for not rounding it up to the dollar. You can do the math yourself -- I'm in the right ballpark.

David said...

Surprise!

And this is why it will be a long time before China dominates economically. Investors do not like capricious and unresponsive government. That's true of the USA and of China. Despite all the damage our government does to investment, the US is still preferable to China.

David said...
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David said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Phil 3:14 said...

D-Day: Hey, quit your blubberin'. When I get through with this baby you won't even recognize it.
Otter: Flounder, you can't spend your whole life worrying about your mistakes! You fucked up... you trusted us! Hey, make the best of it! Maybe we can help.
Flounder: [crying] That's easy for you to say!

Phil 3:14 said...

"John Oliver did a show last night on a law that allows cops to openly steal from the American citizens they stop"

Crack, have you been reading Reason magazine and the National Review?

The Crack Emcee said...

Phil 3:14,

"Crack, have you been reading Reason magazine and the National Review?"

Of course I have, but guess what? They're known racist magazines, so most everyone else DOESN'T READ THEM, so who cares?

John Oliver matters - and for all the right reasons.

How many libertarians have said "No" to reparations? Most I've talked to. Why would anyone side with them? They have no sense of morality.

How many nasty race-hating William F. Buckley quotes have I dug up? Tons. Why read a magazine that needs disclaimers?

And their followers are no great intellectual prizes either. See Michael K as a starting reference. End almost wherever you like - I mean that. Y'all suck, excelling mostly at being disagreeable assholes.

The same people who rejoice, if a white man wins recourse in a discrimination suit, won't allow the same remedy for blacks who've suffered worse damages for centuries - and also think blacks who recognize right-wing racist hypocrisy should read their shit simply because we, too, oppose a police state.

Whoosh!

Your position is so mentally unstable - racial resentments so damned convoluted with obvious white supremacist aspirations for continued control - I don't know how you think ANYONE not white can't see it transparently.

Add in the Ayn Rand shit and - whoopsie!

You're a bunch of nuts no matter what you think you stand for,...

Achilles said...

Is it just me or does it seem like Crack is a moby trying to make racist black people look stupid?

That last post is awesome even by the standards of most of his trolling.

Anonymous said...

The Crack Emcee said...

"John Oliver did a show last night on a law that allows cops to openly steal from the American citizens they stop - even if they've committed no crime - and what are you talking about?

Injustice in fucking China.

Oh, what fucking patriots you are,..."


1. China has more people than us. Size matters.

2. China owns huge amounts of U.S. debt.

3. If the U.S. were to pay reparations to black Americans it would inevitably be as a sizable addition to our Chinese debt.

4. When the U.S. had Jim Crow the Chinese had Chairman Mao. Millions of Chinese died. Much less than four hundred years ago.

5. The Chinese do not seem to be in any rush to pay reparations to Mao's victims. Not sure what their take of advancing money for American blacks' reparations may be.

6. It would seem anyone truly interested in American blacks' reparations would have some interest in where the money would be coming from.

Quixote.

DanTheMan said...

I thought Oliver was white... Live and learn...

Drago said...

CR

Achilles: "Is it just me or does it seem like Crack is a moby trying to make racist black people look stupid?

That last post is awesome even by the standards of most of his trolling."

There has definitely been a drop off in crack-post quality as well as tone. Now he's just launching his version of thunderbolts from atop his crate on the corner without any semblance of coherence.

Worse, he's trying to make up for the incoherence with VOLUME (and that's volume both ways: decibel level and quantity).

Bryan C said...

This outcome was utterly obvious from the start. Allowing reunification to move forward, especially after the events of 1989, was just stupid.

Mark said...

Crack, you're obsessed. (OTOH, you sure as hell are doing your personal best to erase the work of Martin Luther King Jr......)

Unknown said...

If I recall (I had done some gaming of the problem of defending the British flyspeck against the PRC so e time ago), the lease on HK proper is good forever, but the New Territories reverted in was it '97, and without the NT, HK is indefensible/not viable. Not even a question of defense, more of water supply. But I haven't treated it in a while.

Anyway it was quite obvious that China would say and do anything to get the prize, then it'd be fuck you all the way. Betamax3000 could write something clever about convincing the girl to let you put the cuffs on...after that, no more Mr Nice Guy.

Scott said...

Crack won the thread.

Achilles said...

Scott said...
Crack won the thread.

10/7/14, 9:37 PM

Oh the bigotry of lowered expectations...