Althouse: A Colorado town has a referendum on whether to end the breed-specific dog ban.

October 18, 2014

A Colorado town has a referendum on whether to end the breed-specific dog ban.

Is this the beginning of the end of anti-pitbullism?

33 comments:

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: Is this the beginning of the end of anti-pitbullism?

Well, let's hope so.

I've had and lived with many dogs, now and over the years, and the gentlest one, without a doubt, is our current pit bull rescue, Carmen. Literally would not harm a butterfly.

This was always a viscous owner/culture, not viscous breed, issue.; 10/18/14, 10:45 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: "Is this the beginning of the end of anti-pitbullism?"

It ought to be - and, yes SHTSI, it IS culture thing.

Of course, the foundation of American culture is the cruelty of slavery, so let's not pretend we're surprised at the results,...; 10/18/14, 10:51 AM
bleh said...: "They're just the nicest dogs."

Until a child's face is ripped off, but even then the child must have done something to provoke the cuddly sweetheart dog.

The analogy to guns is an interesting one. In the right hands, a pit bull can be nice and sociable and well-adjusted. Even under perfect conditions, it's still a beast, a non-human animate beast who's capable of extreme violence and unpredictable behavior. A pit bull owner has less control over his deadly weapon than does a gun owner.

A chihuahua, no matter how ill tempered or abused, can inflict only so much damage. Not so a pit bull. Or a Rottweiler or German Shepherd or Doberman. It's about capability to inflict harm.

Also, pit bulls are the ultimate dumb asshole status symbol.; 10/18/14, 10:53 AM
Anonymous said...: Never forgive, and always foment antipathy after those atrocious Bud Light commercials of his, I say.; 10/18/14, 11:01 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: Animals are not machines. Animals can make mistakes. The problem with dogs like pitbulls is that if they make mistakes the consequences are catastrophic.; 10/18/14, 11:02 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: They can also have bad owners. The consequences of a pit bull having a bad owner can be catastrophic.

Someone might say, "Well, that is true of guns. Do you want to ban guns?"

But that's not a good analogy. We hold people fully accountable for whatever happens with their guns. If you murder someone with a gun, you can be charged with murder and put into prison for life.

We do not hold people with dogs to the same standard. If a dog kills someone, the owner is not charged with murder. The owner is merely negligent.

And again, a dog is not a machine.; 10/18/14, 11:07 AM
Wince said...: Stay away from the dolphins, but put the baby next to a pitbull, how cute.

Sheeesh.; 10/18/14, 11:17 AM
JPS said...: I love this:

"The Texas-based group DogsBite argues that it's humane to ban breeds because pit bulls are disproportionately euthanized relative to other breeds."

Gosh, could that have anything to do with the all-pit-bulls-are-vicious activists? Maybe they've been so good at getting their message out that most people won't adopt pit bulls: They have this vague sense that, as BDNYC suggests, they're sweet right up until they suddenly and without provocation rip a child's face off.

We wouldn't have adopted one on purpose, knowing the breed only from nightmare stories. It wasn't til we brought home our latest adoptee that we recognized belatedly: Yes, she's half pit bull. Then the hand-wringing: Are we making a terrible mistake if we keep her? Are we putting our small kids at risk?

Did some research online. There are basically three camps out there: 1) Ban them all, they're inherently vicious; 2) It's pure libel, they only attack if they've been raised to be vicious; 3) Oh gosh, we brought home a rescue and realized it's mostly pit, how nervous should we be?

In the end she was too sweet, and too happy to have people be nice to her (they clearly hadn't been, before she was abandoned on a road), to even think of giving back. Best friend my kids could have - and she has endured provocations that made me yell "NOOO!" without so much as growling.; 10/18/14, 11:20 AM
traditionalguy said...: Yes, by all means, let's lose packs of pit bulls on the bad mammals called humans, so they can mop up the ones the nobly restored wolf packs have not yet eaten alive.; 10/18/14, 11:26 AM
SteveR said...: So she buys a dog which is outlawed where she lives and now whines about having to go visit it, in another town. Maybe she should just call it her comfort pet.

These dogs are dangerous and going after the irresponsible owner, after an incident, is small comfort to a victim of an attack, or the loved ones of the victim, as the case may be.; 10/18/14, 12:13 PM
lemondog said...: As I recall over the years the "bad' dog label has been applied to:

German Shepherds
Doberman pinschers
Rottweilers
Pit Bulls

Others? Next?; 10/18/14, 12:30 PM
southcentralpa said...: pro-pit bull and anti shorts. That must make an interesting Venn diagram ...; 10/18/14, 12:43 PM
Lauderdale Vet said...: My father was a police officer in Miami-Dade. Over time (responding to numerously similar pit-bull-kills-or-maims-child calls) it became his opinion that there was something wrong with the breed, that some of them would "one day just snap". He was convinced it was a hereditary trait, kind of like how German Shepherds favor hip dysplasia.; 10/18/14, 1:00 PM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: Crack: Of course, the foundation of American culture is the cruelty of slavery, so let's not pretend we're surprised at the results,...

Your ignorance knows no bounds. White Europeans, who made up most of America in the mid-1800's, are the first society who made slavery illegal, and made it stick.

All peoples (and that's most) whose ancestors were once slaves, should wake up each morning a whisper a grateful thanks to the American White man for the example they set, for ending slavery - an institution that ran practiced and unchecked (and still exists in some places) everywhere Homo Sapiens settled, for probably 100,000 years.

The fact that you think what I just wrote is outrageous, shows just how wrong and messed up your world view is.

But then that's what happens when one chooses not to think, and swallows whole, Progressive propaganda.
You're still on the Plantation, Crack my man. Only this time, you don't even realize it. One almost has to admire the Progressive's sick brilliance! Almost.; 10/18/14, 1:38 PM
Scott said...: "In the 9-year period from 2005 to 2013, pit bulls killed 176 Americans and accounted for 62% of the total recorded deaths (283). Combined, pit bulls and rottweilers accounted for 74% of these deaths."

The views of the "all-pit-bulls-are-vicious activists" aren't exactly arbitrary.; 10/18/14, 1:43 PM
rhhardin said...: The pit bull hysteria came from an 80s media discovery of a narrative.

Until then the breed had been America's Dog.

Vicki Hearne's _Bandit_ is the history, along with some philosopy and sex difference talk, not to mention disparagement of the NY Metropolican Museum of Art.; 10/18/14, 2:00 PM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: "In the 9-year period from 2005 to 2013, pit bulls killed 176 Americans and accounted for 62% of the total recorded deaths (283). Combined, pit bulls and rottweilers accounted for 74% of these deaths."

The views of the "all-pit-bulls-are-vicious activists" aren't exactly arbitrary.

Please include a profile of the owners and trainers of those dogs. Without that, those stats are meaningless. Meaningless.; 10/18/14, 2:05 PM
Fernandinande said...: "It's too bad that whole families have to be torn apart by something as simple as wild dogs." -- J.H.; 10/18/14, 2:20 PM
Fernandinande said...: SomeoneHasToSayIt said...
You're still on the Plantation, Crack my man. Only this time, you don't even realize it. One almost has to admire the Progressive's sick brilliance! Almost.

"It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I
guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there,
rocking back and forth, wanting that money." -- J.H.; 10/18/14, 2:27 PM
Scott said...: "Please include a profile of the owners and trainers of those dogs. Without that, those stats are meaningless. Meaningless."

What, because you say they are?; 10/18/14, 2:31 PM
Babaluigi said...: Pit bulls have jaws like steel clamps and are loyal to a fault, a bad combination unless looking for protection from all comers (or a fighting dog.) There is a reason they are so popular as fighting dogs. They may not hurt their owners, but how many attacks of strangers "out on a walk" and children do there have to be before dog owners consider them dangerous? There are some things in life that just because we can do them, does not mean that we should. Having a pit bull is one of those things. Rather than tell me that the pit bull owner is some sentimental sap who thinks the poor doggies are just misunderstood, it leads me to think the owner is somewhat of a jerk. I understand that sentiment will bring derision- and I do not give a damn.

I have been around both pit bulls and wolf hybrids, and neither one of them is suitable for living in an urban/suburban area. Even out in the middle of nowhere, they can and will wreak havoc on the unsuspecting creature if not properly corralled.; 10/18/14, 2:46 PM
Unknown said...: [x] are killers. [x] are responsible for a hugely disproportionate number of fatalities in this country. And I don't want to hear about how the [x] you know is gentle and sweet, or only a [x] that is raised badly goes bad. What kind of comfort is that to the next victim of a [x]? It's not as if you can just tell a good [x] from a bad [x] by looking. [x] are not fit to live among decent, innocent families.

Now, go ahead and substitute a less politically correct value for [x] than "pit bulls." Just sayin'. Not sure whom this should convince of what.; 10/18/14, 2:53 PM
Babaluigi said...: x= lions & tigers... creatures which people have had as "pets". They are so cute when they are babies, but they can get a little feisty and unpredictable when they grow up, just ask Roy Horn.

When I was growing up, my parents had friends with a pet tiger. Eventually they had to get rid of it...but it lived on as a rug in their house...no kidding.; 10/18/14, 3:04 PM
JPS said...: Scott:

"The views of the 'all-pit-bulls-are-vicious activists' aren't exactly arbitrary."

Your statistic, as far as it goes, proves what I wouldn't try to deny: Pit bulls account for an outsize share of human fatalities (and serious injuries) from dog attacks in the U.S. As far as that goes, that's scary.

Now: Of those pit bull attacks, how many were from dogs specifically trained to be vicious? How many were from dogs who might as well have been: who were abused and neglected? Control for those factors, and I'd bet you do not have a unique or even remarkable likelihood of serious attack.

Babaluigi: "how many attacks of strangers 'out on a walk' and children do there have to be before dog owners consider them dangerous?"

You mean, how many people have to be hurt by dogs I don't know, owned by people I don't know, raised in ways I haven't seen, before I'll consider mine dangerous?

These are unrelated quantities. The day mine tries to hurt someone for no good reason, I'll consider her dangerous.; 10/18/14, 3:06 PM
Babaluigi said...: Well, JPS, I have never done heroin, but I know it is dangerous enough not to try it in the first place. That one time can be all it takes to kill a person. So, if you feel like it is ok to inflict an animal that is more likely to be dangerous than others on other people just because you have no personal experience with its flaws, well that is who you are. I hope you never find out, or more importantly, that no potential victim ever finds out that you were wrong.

When we adopt strays and shelter animals, we often see their past reflected in their behavior...the only animal we "know" completely is one we raised from birth, and they are still just animals. Hopefully, the insane part of a pit bull's mind has been diluted by the presence of another breed in your furry child's parentage. They are loyal dogs, and of course they can be wonderful companions, but there is a risk involved.; 10/18/14, 3:22 PM
JPS said...: Babaluigi:

"if you feel like it is ok to inflict an animal that is more likely to be dangerous than others on other people just because you have no personal experience with its flaws, well that is who you are."

I reject your premise that my animal is more likely to be dangerous than others. I reject your assumption that I do so "just" because I have no personal experience with her flaws. I disagree that I have no personal experience with her flaws. I find absurd your accusation that I "inflict" her on other people. And I'm amused at your passive-aggressive statement, "well that is who you are."

You haven't the foggiest idea who I am. You know nothing about me except (because I've said so) that I have a pit bull mutt, and that I find fallacious the suggestion that she must be dangerous - because they all are.

"When we adopt strays and shelter animals, we often see their past reflected in their behavior."

Hers sure is. First time I picked up a stick to play fetch with her, she cringed and cried. That's not even the half of it. And still she loves people. So thanks for your well wishes, about my never learning just how dangerous she is - but you'll have to forgive me for not buying that I've taken a chance like trying heroin.

[As if on cue, she came over here while I was typing. It is damn hard to type with her pushing her face between my forearm and the keyboard.]; 10/18/14, 4:06 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: SomeoneHasToSayIt,

Wait, first, for the record - no they don't. Like this comment, it would be best if "someone" just kept their mouth shut, because they're stupid. O.K.? Forward:

"Your ignorance knows no bounds. White Europeans, who made up most of America in the mid-1800's, are the first society who made slavery illegal, and made it stick."

Prove I'm ignorant of that. I've mentioned England's role, here, many times - but what does England's role have to do with American culture (which defied England and was the topic of my comment)? Nothing.

So SomeoneDidn'tHaveToSayIt after all.

"All peoples (and that's most) whose ancestors were once slaves, should wake up each morning a whisper a grateful thanks to the American White man for the example they set, for ending slavery - an institution that ran practiced and unchecked (and still exists in some places) everywhere Homo Sapiens settled, for probably 100,000 years."

Now whites think they're entitled to tell us, not only how to feel, but to kiss white's ass for something we didn't ask for - to be around the sorry prick that abused us for eternity.

Dude, in person, me or one of my friends would slap the taste out of your mouth for that suggestion - that's how wrong it is - because it says black women's rape, and the lynchings, and murder, and outright theft, are also things whites "gave" us that you think we should be "grateful" for.

Is that what you're saying? Let us know. We may still meet up yet.

"The fact that you think what I just wrote is outrageous, shows just how wrong and messed up your world view is."

Yep - as far as I know, the only reason whites thought it was wrong is because blacks ran away. Jumped off the slave ships. Killed themselves - anything but be what whites said we were: slaves.

How that equals whites acting first, you'll have to explain - I say it was blacks who showed agency and, just like today, decent whites followed our lead.

"But then that's what happens when one chooses not to think, and swallows whole, Progressive propaganda."

There's the white imagination again - denying blacks can think or act on our own - while thinking such insults will make us feel all warm and fuzzy about you and the Republican Party.

It's crazytalk, but it's all yours - and I'm really glad you're losing the country while doing it.

Go down proudly sickening.

"You're still on the Plantation, Crack my man."

See? How is that kind of talk supposed to change my mind about you? About how far from you I want to get? For people who need black votes to survive, y'all only know how to make it worse.

"Only this time, you don't even realize it."

And you don't realize the damage you're doing to yourself.

"One almost has to admire the Progressive's sick brilliance! Almost."

I know - when the flag is lowered on white supremacy, ahead of schedule, you'll have LOTS to admire,...; 10/18/14, 7:00 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Scott,

"In the 9-year period from 2005 to 2013, pit bulls killed 176 Americans and accounted for 62% of the total recorded deaths (283). Combined, pit bulls and rottweilers accounted for 74% of these deaths."

The views of the "all-pit-bulls-are-vicious activists" aren't exactly arbitrary.

How many Americans are there again? How many pittbull owners?

You guys talk such nonsense. And when you try to use stats? As Ann says, it's time to panic!

Hilariously.

250 years of slavery put on almost every black man, woman, and child in the country.

Use your stats and figure out how much whites owe us, Einstein,...; 10/18/14, 7:05 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: I really wonder how grateful SomeoneHasToSayIt would be for a serious ass kicking by a group of BLACKS?

That's what he's saying blacks "should wake up each morning a whisper a grateful thanks to the American White man for" - an ass kicking for no reason.

Now that he mentions it, I'd like to see that, so he could whisper sweet nothings to us.

I'd remind him how much he should after it happened - daily,...; 10/18/14, 7:10 PM
Babaluigi said...: Been away for a while, and forgive me, because I guess this now becomes a personal message service--but, JPS,
nope, it does not matter at all what I think about your choices, nor you, mine--because I am pretty sure our paths do not cross in this instance. But, I steer clear of pit bulls and their owners--part of my discernment. Does that keep me from meeting some awesome people?...maybe in some sense, but not in any way that bothers me. I have set my parameters, and while some things are worth my consideration, others I just do not bother with. It is a big world and there is a lot to choose from.; 10/18/14, 9:17 PM
Lauderdale Vet said...: > I really wonder how grateful SomeoneHasToSayIt would be
> for a serious ass kicking by a group of BLACKS?

I went to a "black" middle school (Lauderhill), Crack. Used to ride my bike home with some of my black friends, crossing through the tunnel under the Turnpike. I remember getting shut down on numerous ocassions, trying to get home, tossed to the ground and kicked pretty thoroughly by a circle of folk because I was the wrong (White) color. I think they went easy on me because my black friends were usually looking on the whole time, doing nothing, saying nothing. The next day we wouldn't even speak of it. It didn't even happen.

I usually ignore you when you go off the rails.

I figure racism won't exist when everyone else ignores it all too. The more we pay attention to it the more life we give it.

I keep telling myself that you have a worthwhile point, somewhere, so I keep reading - but when you say things like that?

I realize I'm probably wasting my time and effort.; 10/18/14, 9:30 PM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: The Crack Emcee said...
I really wonder how grateful SomeoneHasToSayIt would be for a serious ass kicking by a group of BLACKS?

That's what he's saying blacks "should wake up each morning a whisper a grateful thanks to the American White man for" - an ass kicking for no reason.

Now that he mentions it, I'd like to see that, so he could whisper sweet nothings to us.

I'd remind him how much he should after it happened - daily,...

Looks like you are acting with aggressive emotion, rather than reason, yet again. We keep telling you that is your whole problem, but you just won't listen.

Also, look up the legal definition of 'assault'. Maybe Ann can help you there. You are getting close to committing it.; 10/18/14, 10:29 PM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: Crack threatens a fellow Althouse poster: Dude, in person, me or one of my friends would slap the taste out of your mouth for that suggestion - that's how wrong it is - because it says black women's rape, and the lynchings, and murder, and outright theft, are also things whites "gave" us that you think we should be "grateful" for.

It doesn't say any of those things, of course. Those are called 'straw men'. POTUS is also good at building those.

If that's how your mind processes information, I'm surprised you get through the day.

Also, threats of beat-downs are a strange way to express gratitude for finding yourself in the greatest country the Earth has yet produced.

Only suggesting you do something I do every morning. Thank the Fates for my being an American. You ought to try it.

But then, if beatdowns are SOP for where you live, that might explain some of the dysfunction.

Good news is, you can change. Totally within your power, even if you don't recognize and appreciate it yet.; 10/18/14, 11:04 PM