Althouse: "Law professor Ann says Obama is acting like a law professor… Bob: Obama, like Bush, misunderstands terrorism…"

September 26, 2014

"Law professor Ann says Obama is acting like a law professor… Bob: Obama, like Bush, misunderstands terrorism…"

"Is Obama exaggerating the ISIS threat? If so, why?… The 'latte salute'; the military salute, and the Hitler salute… The real problem with Obama’s golf game… Is football getting a bad rap?…"

67 comments:

John Christopher said...: From the set up this morning, I was not expecting Bob Wright.

He's mostly honest.

I watched until the football part.; 9/26/14, 6:55 PM
David said...: Wright is 100% wrong that the "respect" of a salute is a one way street, with the lower rank showing respect to the superior. 100%.

The salute and return salute is a exercise in mutual respect between the inferior and superior ranks. In fact, the greater the disparity between the ranks, the more important the obligation of the superior rank to show respect.

Army brat background and all, I do not know how Wright came up with this.

The world is made up of hierarchies. It would be hard for the world to function without with them. But in any effective human society or organization, the best results are achieved when mutual respect is present. Indeed mutual respect is a fundamental ingredient of any diverse or pluralistic organization. The American military, while hierarchical, is as diverse and pluralistic as we have, and it is successfully so. The key to this result is mutual respect.

And Ann, this was not a trivial matter. It was inconsequential in its individual scope, but telling in what it revealed.; 9/26/14, 7:18 PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: Eh, it's trivial. When I was enlisted the senior officers I saw were mostly annoyed by having to return so many salutes. They never knew who I was, or cared.

The posing about military respect is more annoying than anything the President did with a coffee cup. I don't care.

I do care that he's making bad decisions, and I wish we'd talk about those instead of nonsense.; 9/26/14, 7:23 PM
khesanh0802 said...: You lost me after 3 minutes of pointless BS. We know who you are, get down to business!; 9/26/14, 7:27 PM
Paddy O said...: He needs to take off the beard and keep a handlebar mustache; 9/26/14, 7:29 PM
khesanh0802 said...: @John Lynch
You must have been in the air force. Real warriors show each other respect and it makes no difference what the difference in rank is. In fact it's extremely important for a company, battalion or division commander to show respect to his enlisted and NCOs; they are the ones who do all the work.
Your officers apparently did not respect themselves or you.; 9/26/14, 7:32 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: OMG

I am hooked mere seconds in.

Why no Barnhardt Palin Althouse consortium?; 9/26/14, 7:39 PM
Drago said...: Khesanh0802: "You must have been in the air force. Real warriors show each other respect and it makes no difference what the difference in rank is."

Precisely.

Hang around some Marines (Force Recon or not), any old Seal Team members and front line types and you will see how seriously they take this mutual respect/saluting thing.

I still have some friends in some interesting places and I can tell you they aren't taking the salute lightly, but they have grown accustomed to the disrepect from this admin and they don't expend alot of energy on it.; 9/26/14, 7:39 PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: Four years Navy and three years Army. Stuff it. You can romanticize about things that happened decades ago, but at the time they were things you had to do.

Real respect is about actions that matter, not waving your arm at someone. I have a great deal of respect for the people I served with. I am proud of my service. But saluting? Come on. It's a tradition, it has value, but it's not that important.

Sending people off to die in Afghanistan, or Iraq, for no purpose is much more serious than waving a coffee cup. Posing about a military ritual that almost no one understands diverts attention from things that do matter, like the deaths of thousands far from home.; 9/26/14, 7:41 PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: Focus on things that matter! That's my number one problem with news-cycle garbage. It's all there to cover up important information that we need to be thinking about.

It's much more respectful to the men getting blown up in Afghanistan if we know what's going on over there (which is never in the news) and what the President is doing about it. The decisions the President makes are what matter, not the damn coffee.

Where's Iraq going? What's the plan? Who's going to be sent to die because the President doesn't know what the hell else to do?

That's important. Coffee, big damn deal.; 9/26/14, 7:45 PM
Ken B said...: So this is trivial and unimportant because Obama's casual return of the salute can't be seen as failing to show respect. We know this because returning a salute crisply also fails to show respect. Mutual respect plays no role in the military.
This is what you two agreed on?
Learn from David.; 9/26/14, 7:47 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: John Lynch said...
The posing about military respect is more annoying than anything the President did with a coffee cup. I don't care.

I do care that he's making bad decisions, and I wish we'd talk about those instead of nonsense.

Curious to hear you expand on this, the bad decisions. You feel we shouldn't go back or should never have left?; 9/26/14, 7:48 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: I am not sophisticated enough to understand your arguments.

Nor your argument-man.

But I do know this:

This is a link to one Gram Parsons.; 9/26/14, 7:51 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: I was a regular BH viewer & commenter. I think that's how I first found Althouse. I read Kaus' End of Equality and Wright's Nonzero (Kaus' was better, if a lil' dated, Nonzero's argument was built on untestable assumptions resulting in tautology). I liked Wright's goal of keeping BH civil and fairminded--I remember him talking about how important it is to assume good faith in the BH conversations/arguments. The comment boards were a mixed bag, but most people were ok and most of the discussion threads were pretty fun. Leading up to the '08 election, though, things changed. The BH videos became a lot more slanted and less interesting--when there was a genuine diversity of opinion the participants talked past each other more. The comment boards were similarly less interesting, devolving into repetitive name calling. But the last straw for me was Wright...he started doing all the things he decried, and became so predictable and hackish it was sad. I left and haven't gone back. Is it...is it any good these days?; 9/26/14, 7:53 PM
wildswan said...: Do you realize you can't travel in the Midwest this evening? In a circle around Chicago in Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois and Michigan the airlines are shut down as in Milwaukee or else booked through Sunday. Because of a "lone wolf", I mean, a single crazed individual wrecking the air traffic radar center. And in Oklahoma, someone was beheaded. So I hope Obama is taking terrorism seriously but I must admit I think it's all show - he knows what to say and our hopes fill the blanks. And it is a blank in my opinion. Wright is wrong - Obama is not like Bush, Obama's still like Obama, he does stuff for a little while for a photo op and then he jets away to a party or golf and forgets the whole thing. Meanwhile a 54-year old women is beheaded in this country for nothing except not being Muslim; 9/26/14, 7:53 PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: Iraq took 150,000 troops and a functioning Iraqi Army to put down AQI. Why is it going to take less this time?

If we aren't going to stabilize the country, what's the plan? Save the Kurds? Keep our enemies fighting each other (at the expense of the Iraqi people)? What's the point? I'd like to know.

Leaving turned out badly. It was predictable that the country would fall apart, but the President didn't care. There are many thousands of dead because we left. I don't think that's disputable. He blew it.

The problem is that he may make a bigger mistake trying to rectify the earlier mistake (which he won't admit.); 9/26/14, 7:54 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: John Lynch said...
It was predictable that the country would fall apart,

It was, but staying there indefinitely was not an option, given public opinion.

There was an interesting quote on this issue:

"At the start of the wars in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq, fewer than one in four respondents to the Gallup survey believed it was a mistake to send in U.S. military forces. Thereafter, though, this number steadily increased. By the time the wars had been going on for two or three years, more than fifty per cent of respondents said that the decision to wage them had been an error. The one exception was Afghanistan, where, after three years of war, the percentage of people describing the decision to dispatch U.S. forces as a mistake was still pretty small. Since then, though, this figure has grown: by 2012, it was close to fifty per cent."

Foreign wars have a term date. In general you either achieve the objective within a few years or lose support at home and have to withdraw.; 9/26/14, 8:07 PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: Public opinion didn't like the Surge, but Bush made it happen. People liked it after the fact. Support for the war was over 50% again when Bush left office.

Obama could have led, but he chose not to.; 9/26/14, 8:08 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rUyAEgnGU&index=1&list=RDD-rUyAEgnGU; 9/26/14, 8:17 PM
traditionalguy said...: Wright is absolutely sure of lots of total crap because he has thought it and in his mind no one but him is qualified to change his mind.; 9/26/14, 8:20 PM
Tim said...: Obama could have led, but he chose not to.
He has never led anything in his life . He won't start now. Yes, a 54 year old American woman was beheaded by a muslim in Oklahoma. Welcome to the thunderdome.; 9/26/14, 8:27 PM
rhhardin said...: An audio notch filter can nicely take out machine backing warning beeps.

I've used on for years on the backyard bird microphone when necessary.

You want a manually set notch, not the automatic crap.; 9/26/14, 8:39 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Blogger John Lynch said...
Public opinion didn't like the Surge, but Bush made it happen. People liked it after the fact. Support for the war was over 50% again when Bush left office.
Holy deja vu, I just went over to the old BH forums and was reading comments from one Wright did with Kaus where Wright got nasty and called Mickey (and the Republicans) a propagandist for arguing that the surge "worked" to reduce violence in Iraq. I had a lot more free time back then--the posts are so long! I also like how the threading was done on that old forum, that design makes it really easy to skip whole blocks of comments (ahem) or to respond more directly to a few people.

http://forums.bloggingheads.tv/showthread.php?p=67573; 9/26/14, 8:40 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: This is the public opinion data. The surge didn't reverse public opinion, whatever the military merits.; 9/26/14, 8:42 PM
HT said...: Oh man, I came over here, hoping to get a better streaming experience for the bob and ann show. No such luck. It stops and starts all the time on all 'platforms.' Ugh. I wanted to hear their takes on isis.; 9/26/14, 8:43 PM
Anonymous said...: John Lynch,

I take the opposite view. Its the little things that matter. If you can't be bothered about the little things, why should we expect you to bother about the big things?

Anyone with children knows this. Ignore the little things to your own detriment. They won't trust you or respect you.; 9/26/14, 8:44 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Bloggingheads episode: Obama Disillusionment Edition Joshua Cohen & Brink Lindsey

The date? May 2009. Yeah.

http://forums.bloggingheads.tv/showthread.php?t=3117; 9/26/14, 8:51 PM
Unknown said...: I think Ann is too optimistic about Obama as CIC in time of war. Most or all of Wright's concerns about international law he applies only to America -- not to France, Russia, China, the Czech Republic or anywhere else. No country on earth feels moved to moderate conduct they believe is in their best interest because of any worries about the opinion of the UN.

But I generally enjoyed watching this show. Haven't seen one in a very long time. It's good to see illustrated the unreason of the halfway intelligent-sounding but unreasonable demographic Wright represents, of which I was a part, however passively and incuriously, before 9/11.; 9/26/14, 8:55 PM
n.n said...: Without mutual respect, there is only force. The latter creates a weak foundation in any organization and certainly the military. Obama will have to function through intimidation, with the expected results of treating human beings with contempt.; 9/26/14, 9:10 PM
LYNNDH said...: John Lynch - were you on CVA42?; 9/26/14, 9:13 PM
Humperdink said...: What n.n. said.; 9/26/14, 9:13 PM
Drago said...: John Lynch said: "Four years Navy and three years Army. Stuff it. You can romanticize about things that happened decades ago, but at the time they were things you had to do.

Real respect is about actions that matter, not waving your arm at someone. I have a great deal of respect for the people I served with. I am proud of my service. But saluting? Come on. It's a tradition, it has value, but it's not that important."

It's probably a generational disagreement thing.

Most of 'Nam era guys who were on the tail end of their careers when I first went in didn't seem to care as much about alot of the traditions thing.

It changed.

You can stuff it if you think it didn't.; 9/26/14, 9:26 PM
Lyle said...: haha... Bob Wright think he knows terrorism. What an idiot.; 9/26/14, 9:35 PM
chillblaine said...: Bob interrupts too much and his volume is too loud. It's like watching a TV show and then the commercial comes on and it's uncomfortably loud.

Bob seems to buy into the theory that Islamists are just incited by American actions. He might want to read a little bit of the Koran. If someone beheaded a woman in a shopping center and was quoting Leviticus, you can be damned sure the media would focus on that.; 9/26/14, 9:37 PM
Michael K said...: "Foreign wars have a term date. In general you either achieve the objective within a few years or lose support at home and have to withdraw."

So, the German and Japanese and Korean occupations were a mistake. Right ?; 9/26/14, 9:44 PM
Anonymous said...: All salutes are not equal, and not all match the standards of the Old Guard or 8th & H, but the good ones carry mutual respect.

Wright doesn't understand that the respect goes both ways.

I remember a passage that I read once about a Lieutenant who along with his platoon is thrust into command of a company plus during a rout (Korea). The Regimental Cdr makes it clear that he's now a Captain, the commander, and needs to hold the position. The now Captain summons the guy who up till now has been a senior tank commander, and Says, "1st SGT, we're holding here. have the men dig in and prepare for action."

"the 1SG salutes, it wasn't a parade ground perfect salute, but the mark of respect between warriors in combat"..
"The Captain returned it smartly."

Having said that, salutes are more meaningful in the combat arms :); 9/26/14, 9:44 PM
Drago said...: Michael K: "So, the German and Japanese and Korean occupations were a mistake. Right ?"

It's not fair dragging the real world into a conversation with AReasonableMeltdown.; 9/26/14, 9:51 PM
Anonymous said...: RE: "If someone beheaded a woman in a shopping center and was quoting Leviticus, you can be damned sure the media would focus on that."

I did that and no one noticed. So far.; 9/26/14, 9:56 PM
Henry said...: ARM wrote: Foreign wars have a term date.

Yes. Sooner or later an Obama will come along. Obama's decision may be predicated on public opinion -- in terms of how he ran his 2008 campaign -- but in the end it was his decision to make, he had enormous public and media leeway in which to make it, and he chose preening over strategy.

I am disgusted, but resigned. ARM is right. Any decision to go to war in any substantial fashion in the current climate of this democracy must be based on an election-cycle window and no more.; 9/26/14, 10:01 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Michael K said...
So, the German and Japanese and Korean occupations were a mistake.

Two of your examples are from WWII which was self-evidently a different class of conflict. The fighting in Korea was over after three years and South Koreans weren't trying to kill US soldiers. There wasn't stable security in Iraq five years after the start of the war.; 9/26/14, 10:02 PM
Bob Boyd said...: Speaking of 'Turtles all the way down', I just saw this on Drudge:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/09/25/windsor_man_charged_with_smuggling_51_turtles_in_sweatpants.html; 9/26/14, 10:06 PM
Henry said...: In all the argumentation that led up to the Iraq war, the most important argument against the hawks was missing. It was the argument that ARM presents so succinctly: If things don't go swimmingly, an anti-war politician will throw away everything you hope to gain. This argument is not trivial. It is among the most important strategic factors any future Rice or Eisenhower must address.; 9/26/14, 10:08 PM
Anonymous said...: Baby, you're my BFF, but I have to tell you: Robert Wright is an ass freak. Sure. he talks about peace and all that good stuff, but -- at the end of the night -- he is gonna put it in your ass. That is who he is: a guy who talks about peace and good stuff but only wants to put it in your ass. He says there is nothing wrong with it, it is what right-thinking modern coastal people do, but -- slowly, ever so slowly -- he is gonna put it in your ass. Sure, he'll keep talking about world events like nothing is happening, but he will be talking about world events while he is putting it in your ass. He'll say gentle things: 'is that too much?' 'is that too hard?' but -- Girl -- he Will. Not. Stop. There was a horror in high school gym class that he will never get over, and he will act out his angst in your ass, I hate you sophomore ass-fuck dude I love you baby I love you my gym pants my gym pants my gym pants: baby, it is time to walk away. Walk away from Robert Wright.; 9/26/14, 10:15 PM
jr565 said...: chillblaine wrote:
Bob seems to buy into the theory that Islamists are just incited by American actions.

IT's the standard lefty/libertarian critique of american foreign policy. Our enemies don't have minds of their own. They are merely wound up by our actions to respond. If we did nothing in the region, apparently, they wouldn't act at all.

It's a really lazy and simplistic way of looking at the world. ISIS acts the way it does because that's what's in ISIS's interest. We pulled out of Iraq, they invaded. Why would that be in response to our actions.
They then turn around and say that they are killing the journalists because of our actions. But really all that means is that they don't like us responding to their actions and are threatening us with acts of brutality if we dare to respond.
We would give two shits about ISIS if ISIS wasn't committing genocide and murdering journalists because we are targeting ISIS.

We have never attacked Switzerland. Why? Because they aren't threatening neighbors or starting WMD programs or decapitating journalists. the only time we get involved is when one of those regions or groups starts acting like the dictators that they are.
So if anything, our actions are responses to their actions, not the other way around.; 9/26/14, 10:24 PM
jr565 said...: ""Foreign wars have a term date. In general you either achieve the objective within a few years or lose support at home and have to withdraw."
And consequently foreign war retreats also have a term date. IF the objective is to bring peace through withdrawal and instead you bring genocide the next president has to go in and sweep up the mess.
You notice that Obama is going back into Iraq now, right?
If you pulled out too quick you get to suffer the consequences of such a strategy. Or rather, the people getting their heads chopped off do.; 9/26/14, 10:30 PM
jr565 said...: God help us if people like ARM are in positions to decide what happens with our troops. He would shit over all their gains to withdraw based on a timetable that is not based on what's actually happening there, but rather what's popular at the moment.
Even Leon Panetta is saying we withdrew too soon from Iraq. Because the decision to do so was not based on what would happen if we did, but what would get Obama elected.; 9/26/14, 10:35 PM
richard mcenroe said...: We were in Iraq what, ten years? We were in Western Europe for over sixty and we're still there. What oh what I wonder was the difference?; 9/26/14, 10:36 PM
Michael K said...: "There wasn't stable security in Iraq five years after the start of the war."

Actually, that is not true. I know you wish it was true.

Look at the curve . A lot of those casualties were accidents the last year to so. Iraq was about as safe as Korea in 1956 and would have remained so had Obama not pulled everybody out.; 9/26/14, 10:53 PM
Michael K said...: It saved the whole page, not the graph I copied. Look at US Military deaths. Most of the rest is propaganda.; 9/26/14, 10:55 PM
Original Mike said...: "God help us if people like ARM are in positions to decide what happens with our troops."

A person like ARM is is in command of our troops.; 9/26/14, 11:00 PM
chickelit said...: We have never attacked Switzerland. Why?

We did, in fact, bomb Switzerland a couple times in WW II. When I lived there, I read accounts and otherwise heard urban legends that it was for Swiss double dealings and arms trafficking to the Nazis. The name of one Swiss company came up repeatedly. As for the "mistaken" bombings, a young Jimmy Stewart presided over one Courts Martial: link

Things you learn on the Internet.; 9/27/14, 12:33 AM
richard mcenroe said...: We should have bombed Sweden. We lost over 1,000 airmen trying to destroy the German ball-bearing factories at Schweinfurt... and then the Swedes started selling the Nazis ball-bearings...; 9/27/14, 12:55 AM
Fen said...: Wright is 100% wrong that the "respect" of a salute is a one way street, with the lower rank showing respect to the superior. 100%.

The salute and return salute is a exercise in mutual respect between the inferior and superior ranks. In fact, the greater the disparity between the ranks, the more important the obligation of the superior rank to show respect.

Army brat background and all, I do not know how Wright came up with this.

Exactly. There is a Marine Corp legend every recruit here's at boot camp: the butterbar 2nd LT who passes a private that fails to salute properly. LT takes private aside and has him practice 100 salutes. About this time, Drill Instuctor walks up and asks the LT what the frack he is doing. LT explains. Drill Instructer reminds LT that it his duty to return a properly rendered salute. DI makes LT return each of the 100 salutes.; 9/27/14, 3:37 AM
Fen said...: AReasonableMan: There was an interesting quote on this issue:

"At the start of the wars in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq, fewer than one in four respondents to the Gallup survey believed it was a mistake to send in U.S. military forces. Thereafter, though, this number steadily increased. By the time the wars had been going on for two or three years, more than fifty per cent of respondents said that the decision to wage them had been an error. The one exception was Afghanistan, where, after three years of war, the percentage of people describing the decision to dispatch U.S. forces as a mistake was still pretty small. Since then, though, this figure has grown: by 2012, it was close to fifty per cent."

Foreign wars have a term date. In general you either achieve the objective within a few years or lose support at home and have to withdraw.

Shorter: we're going to get bombed again because liberals have the attention span of feckless spoiled brat.; 9/27/14, 3:42 AM
Dad said...: Wright is bigger, louder, and has better sound quality. To hear you well, he has to be too loud.; 9/27/14, 4:14 AM
Achilles said...: AReasonableMan said...
This is the public opinion data. The surge didn't reverse public opinion, whatever the military merits.

9/26/14, 8:42 PM

Shorter ARM: we can profit politically if we treat the soldiers like shit and throw away everything they worked for.

As an added bonus there will be less free people in the world. These people want North Korea. They want Saddam. They want Putin. They tear down the US at every opportunity. They are on the other side.; 9/27/14, 5:55 AM
Brando said...: This war is a mistake, started for the wrong reasons, based on dubious assumptions and a plan that is wishful thinking. If our last experience in Iraq didn't do the job, this one won't either and I think the Prez knows this but doesn't care. He just wants to appear to do something and run out the clock.

The only question now is whether that's all that will happen or if we foolishly escalate.; 9/27/14, 5:56 AM
Jaq said...: "It was, but staying there indefinitely was not an option, given public opinion." - ARM

Ha ha ha ha! A more perfect example of leftie circular reasoning would be harder to find!

What you mean to say is he got elected by promising to condemn so many Iraqi tribes and clans to genocide, so basically, he had no choice because idiots thought it was the right thing to do!

Let's you off Scot free from your responsibility for what is happening there! Bootstrapped yourself right out of history one more time, like lefties seem always to do, to start again, leaving behind one more disaster to pretend you didn't cause.; 9/27/14, 6:33 AM
Jaq said...: "Sending people off to die in Afghanistan, or Iraq, for no purpose is much more serious than waving a coffee cup."

In other words, defending Obama is more important than any of this crap because of BOOOOSSSHHH!

I am sure that the zombies, I mean corpse men, err, I mean corpsmen that serve under him feel as much respect as Obama thinks they deserve, so end of story.; 9/27/14, 6:37 AM
Kevin said...: Wow, the whole discussion about what Bush did or did not do in the UN prior to the invasion of Iraq should be reviewed by Ann and Bob.

As I'm listening to you discuss it, I'm thinking, "Hello, Colin Powell's presentation to the UN, which he demanded we make, and was meant to lay out evidence for the world to inspect prior to the vote?"

The thing which has driven a wedge between Powell and the GOP ever since?

Somehow we've forgotten all that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_and_the_Iraq_War; 9/27/14, 7:10 AM
Bobber Fleck said...: For what it's worth: My concern regarding Iraq was that it would fall apart after we left. We left, it fell apart. That leaves the question "what is our goal in Iraq?" Can we define a mission that has a worthwhile endpoint? If we define an endpoint and reach it will it matter 6 months later?

Given the tribal and religious factions in most of the Middle East is there any way to bring lasting peace without a permanent occupation force?; 9/27/14, 7:11 AM
Tank said...: Michael K said...

"Foreign wars have a term date. In general you either achieve the objective within a few years or lose support at home and have to withdraw."

So, the German and Japanese and Korean occupations were a mistake. Right ?

Respectfully Mike, the countries and peoples of the Middle East are not just like Germans, Japanese and Koreans. That is not to say we should not be involved, but don't let us imagine that we can remake Iraq and Afghanistan into Germany and Japan.; 9/27/14, 8:03 AM
Jason said...: 21 years of service here. The salute is hugely important, and is a gesture of mutual respect among warriors. It means a ton... ESPECIALLY if it's a senior officer returning one of the first salutes of a brand new private, sailor or airman.

I still remember my first one, and first one returned (HOOAH, SFC JOHNSON!!!)

Wright's always been an insufferable idiot, and he's 100 percent wrong on this one.; 9/27/14, 10:49 AM
Jason said...: Geez. Wright is still on the "Iraq War Was Illegal Because BUSH" stage.

In Freudian terms, this is like being a two year old stuck on the anal stage of development.; 9/27/14, 12:05 PM
jr565 said...: Bobber Fleck wrote:
For what it's worth: My concern regarding Iraq was that it would fall apart after we left. We left, it fell apart. That leaves the question "what is our goal in Iraq?" Can we define a mission that has a worthwhile endpoint? If we define an endpoint and reach it will it matter 6 months later?"
For what it's worth, my concern regarding Iraq was that it would fall apart after we left, IF WE LEFT TOO EARLY. And so basing departure dates on artificial timetables that coincide with election cycles and instead base them on things actually happening on the ground. Were the Iraqis ready to take over security. Was that the consensus of all the generals. did we need to have a residual troop there JUST in case.
What's the end game? A stable iraq. How long will it take? As long as needed. However, if it continued being stable we could draw down further and furhter. You don't withdraw if youre not sure that by doing so you aren't going to make the situation worse.
What's happening now in Iraq is worst case scenario. Which occured precisely because we let Obama lead.
If we had kept forces there would ISIS have even dared invade Iraq? Would Maliki have done some of his moves if we could keep him in check because our troops are there.
Note that they had elections, and Maliki stepped down. UNheard of if Sadaam were running the place. His successor would be his sons, and they'd all get 99% of the votes. So democracy works there. We just need to protect it and support it, and strengthen it wear its' weak.
Otherwise people like ISIS are going to step up and do that role of shaping govt for us. Only we're not goign to like the result.; 9/27/14, 12:27 PM
khesanh0802 said...: @John Lynch 7:41

You are talking about two different things. Military courtesy/respect and strategic decisions.

You have my views on the first. Do I trust Obama to develop and implement a meaningful strategy that is effective yet minimizes our troops' exposure? Absolutely not.; 9/27/14, 1:32 PM
damikesc said...: Is football getting a bad rap?

That kids are injured in soccer far more than in football, I'd say yes.

Hell, in the world of football, at least in college and high school, the cheerleaders get injured more frequently.; 9/27/14, 2:23 PM