June 20, 2014

PBS Newshour looks at racial disparities in Madison, Wisconsin.

Gwen Ifill begins: "The college town of Madison, Wisconsin is not the sort of place that leaps to mind when it comes to the discussion of racial disparities."

First of all, it's not a town. It's a city. And why isn't it "the sort of place that leaps to mind"? There's zero attention to that question. The word "liberal" does not appear in the report. Can we infer that Madison's strongly liberal politics have caused the disparities? The segment proceeds to highlight the efforts of the well-meaning white people of Madison, such as sending a social worker into the homes of young black mothers to help them play with their toddlers properly. 

We see a black middle school principal, and he says with quiet confidence and a smile: "When a student identifies a purpose for being in the classroom, and you enhance that with a culturally relevant curriculum, that’s when the light comes on. That’s when the education truly happens."

Have we, the liberal people of Madison, Wisconsin failed to show students that there is a purpose to education and failed to provide a culturally relevant curriculum, so that these are new things that could be done? The principal's statement is anodyne.

And we see a black minister — who has a program called "Justified Anger" — but his most substantive complaint is that black people are "rarely asked what we think, and that doesn’t dignify us."
So we’re the topic of every discussion, we’re the subject of every report, and we don’t get to interject, we don’t get to submit, we don’t get to say anything.
But what does he think should be done?

If you're going to come to Madison to cover the topic of racial disparities, you ought to have some meat about why Madison, specifically, has this problem. Everybody's so damned polite, including the get-angry guy.

86 comments:

cassandra lite said...

"culturally relevant curriculum"?

Public schools are child abuse.

retired said...

The revolution is eating its own.

rhhardin said...

The blacks would have dignity if they helped whites.

You won't hear that on NPR.

broomhandle said...

Affluent white liberals don't want the crime, ignorance, and slatternly conditions that follow the underclass wherever they go? I applaud their common sense while I mock their hypocrisy!
This isn't just Madison of course. Washington State is full of affluent deep-blue neighborhoods where a black or brown face won't be seen. Unless they're the gardener.

rcocean said...

Does Madison have any Hispanics or Asians?

traditionalguy said...

OK, Madison is 7.3% African American. No wonder the Angry Blacks are polite all of the time.

Try out life in a City that is 68%African-American and then we can discuss needed political skills.



rcocean said...

Looks like Madison is the victim of collateral damage. PBS was trying to bomb Scott walker but hit Althouse too.

Sorun said...

Whatever racial disparity issues Madison has is not between whites and blacks. It's between American-born blacks and everyone else.

Anthony said...

why Madison, specifically, has this problem. Everybody's so damned polite, including the get-angry guy.

That is why PBS went here. They know their audience, and their audience wants to hear reasonable-sounding people talking in modulated voices so they (the audience) can engage with the issue, rather than just spectate.

Ann Althouse said...

"They know their audience, and their audience wants to hear reasonable-sounding people talking in modulated voices..."

I'm not the regular audience, and the forced blandness made me want to scream.

Sorun said...

Madison has roughly equal numbers of blacks and Asians. It would be more interesting to look at disparities between those two groups.

Fernandinande said...

But what does he think should be done?

Isn't it "Blame Walker" season?

The Dead End of "Disparate Impact"
"...
In describing ethnic disparities in performance on various job-screening tests or criteria, IOP researchers refer to the standardized ethnic-group differences (designated as d) associated with a given measure of performance. As reported by University of Michigan psychologist Richard Nisbett in his book Intelligence and How to Get It, the average measured IQ difference between blacks and whites remains large at this point, standing at a d value of about one standard deviation from the mean. This pattern has been stable for decades and is well documented in the IOP literature.

Because blacks today have significantly lower average IQ scores than do whites and Asians, they tend to underperform these groups on measures that draw heavily on cognitive ability, including the range of skills that determine academic achievement as well as job success. Racial disparities in proficiency, knowledge, and learning persist at all levels of schooling, with black students consistently observed to enter elementary school, high school, college, graduate school, and professional schools with test scores and grades lower than those of other groups. For instance, scores on a 2009 national test of academic skills (the National Assessment of Educational Progress) revealed that the average black 12th grader reads at the level of the average white eighth grader. Richard Arum, in his recent book Academically Adrift, documents that black students, on average, enter college with significantly lower scores and grades than do whites; moreover, he presents evidence that black students learn significantly less in college than do students from other ethnic groups, even when they possess the same entering qualifications. ..."

Full 93 page academic paper here.

Sorun said...

"So we’re the topic of every discussion, we’re the subject of every report, and we don’t get to interject, we don’t get to submit, we don’t get to say anything'

The black minister says "we" but he means him. Why doesn't he get on TV more often.

lemondog said...

The state of Wisconsin has the worst rankings for African American children in the country for basic factors like education, income, health and home stability

What stats? Put together by what organization?

US Census Madison demographics

Fernandinande said...

The report cites stark differences in between African-American and white children when it comes to education, family income, and home stability.

Because poor white kids outscore non-poor black kids so consistently that it would make the news if they didn’t. Here’s a cite from 1991 test scores, back before the College Board stopped sorting by both income and race: [image/chart]
...
But it’s not just the SAT; low income whites outperform “not-poor” blacks everywhere—the NAEP data ruthlessly collects this data every year: [image/chart]"

surfed said...

Madison? Racial disparities? LMAO. NPR is reaching here.

Jupiter said...

Madison should pay reparations.

campy said...

I'm so glad that the election of Obama cleared up all that racial tension we used to have.

Epiphyte - said...

Battlefield prep. for accusing Scott Walker of being a raaaaacist.

The Crack Emcee said...

"Everybody's so damned polite, including the get-angry guy."

And people wonder why we get along.

Fuck 'em,...

Fernandinande said...

Sorun said...
Madison has roughly equal numbers of blacks and Asians. It would be more interesting to look at disparities between those two groups.


New post from Steve Hsu:
+
Explaining Asian Americans’ academic advantage over whites (PNAS)
...From the Supplement: for E. Asians, the academic achievement gap appears to be ~1/3 due to cognitive ability and ~2/3 due to academic effort, with large uncertainties. For the other subpopulations the results are quite different (and actually rather strange)."
+

The Crack Emcee said...

Sorun,

"The black minister says 'we' but he means him."

No, Ta-Nahisi Coates has spoken of this phenomena being a motivating factor for himself becoming a writer. That he wanted what he has now - a place at the table where he's heard blacks discussed.

You guys really don't listen to black people, but like putting your own opinion in place of what we say, huh?

Michael said...

Althouse
"I'm not the regular audience, and the forced blandness made me want to scream"

In addition to the cloying tones pay attention to the music that ends segments. If a conservative has been discussed or a conservative idea the music is generally a forlorn jazz riff suggesting tired, head shaking, despair at the dumbness of the racist dumb conservative. If a liberal idea is dealt with the music will be cheery, optimistic with only a pinch of irony, just enough to nod to the hipness of the listener who gets it totally.

Very similar to how the announcers/readers always pronounced CentralAmerican countries and cities with fake Spanish accents. Especially Sandinista which trilled off their tongues with revolutionary gusto. Why, I wondered, do they not use a German accent when they mention Berlin or English when London is the topic or Japanese on matters of Tokyo?

So obvious, so cringe making.

Paco Wové said...

"And why isn't it "the sort of place that leaps to mind"? There's zero attention to that question."

Presumably because it's assumed to be full of Nice White People, the sort who watch PBS and fund local public TV stations. And it probably is! And the blacks there are probably out of sight, out of mind. Kind of like Minneapolis, which is the city that leaps to my mind when I think of racial disparities.

In fact, much of the upper midwest – Chicago, Madison, Milwaukee, Minneapolis – seems to fit that pattern. Prosperous, orderly, liberal whites; poor, utterly demoralized blacks.

rcocean said...

I was afraid this thread might spin out of control.

Thank God Crack has shown up to keep us safe,sane, and reasonable.

SGT Ted said...

It was just Madison's turn in the Racial Justice Barrel.

Michael said...

Crack


"You guys really don't listen to black people, but like putting your own opinion in place of what we say, huh?"

But the white supremacists that own The Atlantic surely do not publish for an exclusive black audience do they? And "putting your own opinion in place of what we say" is called disagreement. Or criticism. Or analysis. It could be wrong but it is a common way to interpret what others say. Just like the hidden meaning you find under every semi colon.

Sam L. said...

Don't you understand? You're JUST TOO WHITE. Madison and Wisconsin are JTW. The irony, the schadenfreude, they are just too great, too delicious!

Sorun said...

Explaining Asian Americans’ academic advantage over whites

Now I'm angry and resentful. I want Asians to ask me what I think more often and give me some money.

The Crack Emcee said...

Paco Wové,

In fact, much of the upper midwest – Chicago, Madison, Milwaukee, Minneapolis – seems to fit that pattern. Prosperous, orderly, liberal whites; poor, utterly demoralized blacks.

Or you could say free or neutral territory during slavery, but all with Black Laws and so forth, resulting in the blacks held down through Jim Crow, resulting in the obvious.

I know, you were going for something about whites being GREAT, but, well, my explanation's got the maps and everything,...

n.n said...

"play with their toddlers properly", really? The most intuitive tasks are beyond comprehension.

"culturally relevant curriculum", really? Creation of minority classes.

"rarely asked what we think", really? Few people ask me what I think.

Condescension. Although, I doubt that's what motivates Ifill's criticism.

SteveBrooklineMA said...

I suspect that the attention Madison is receiving is due to this report

http://racetoequity.net/dev/wp-content/uploads/WCCF-R2E-Report.pdf

Michael K said...

If Derbyshire lived in Madison, he would be still working for NRO. Nothing like a pure white environment to stir leftist values. Look at the editorial boards of lefty magazines, if you doubt me.

rcocean said...

"In fact, much of the upper midwest – Chicago, Madison, Milwaukee, Minneapolis – seems to fit that pattern. Prosperous, orderly, liberal whites; poor, utterly demoralized blacks."

Hmm... maybe its the fault of the blacks. Maybe, just maybe, they are to blame for their own misfortune.

Naaah. Its has to be those evil whites, holding down the great black folks. Not only are whites evil, but they have it in for black folks. Look how they let Hispanics and Asians do so well. Maybe you should change your name Crack. I suggest "Crackyasuta".

Drago said...

Crack: "You guys really don't listen to black people, but like putting your own opinion in place of what we say, huh?"

I'm sorry. What were you saying?

YoungHegelian said...

"And now it's time for everybody's favorite game ---- MOVE THE GOAL POSTS ON HONKEY!"

[cue theme music & audience applause]

Michael said...

Crack

Remember that norther whites, people in places like liberal Madison, absolutely love the black race. Wont utter a word against it. Individual black people, on the other hand, are a different matter.

Here in the sweet sunny south the thinking has been that the blackrace is horrible, a disgrace, but that individual blacks are our friends and neighbors. Wasnt always so but it certainly is today. Including in some of the deepest darkest rednecky hamlets.

You should come down south. You would thrive and that anger would fall from you like the old skin of a snake. You would make money, a life for yourself. Huge music scene. Supportive community.

broomhandle said...

Gwen Ifill is the Al Jolson of America liberalism.

John said...

Lemondog asked "what stats?"

How about these?
+++++++++++++
Black/White unemployment:
Dane County25/5%
Wisconsin 23/7%
US 18/8%

Black/white children in poverty:
Dane County 75/5%
Wisconsin 44/12%
US 34/14%

Black/white students not taking ACT:
Dane County 70/36%
Wisconsin 50/41%

Juvenile arrest rate per 100,000:
Dane County 469/77
Wisconsin 329/98
US 71/33

Adult arrest rate per 100,000:
Dane County 295/36
Wisconsin 230/33
US 82/33

So yeah, it will be interesting to see if anything will be done about the racism that seems endemic in Madison.

See the The Wisconsin Council on Children and Families’ (WCCF) Race to Equity project (PDF) where these stats come from for more

http://racetoequity.net/

All stats above from 2011.
++++++++++++

Not the first time I've posted the above. Madison is a racist city. One of the most racist in the US. Own it, Madisonians.

More importantly do something about it rather than just talking and flopping your hands around.

Perhaps start with public schools and public school teachers and administrators.

John Henry

Drago said...

Apparently, "culturally relevant curriculum" does not usually include geometry, trigonometry, analytic geometry or calculus.

And you can just about forget almost completely about differential equations.

Mathematics is racist.

Islands not tipping over due to population increases is racist.

The list is endless.

John said...

KKK was particularly active in Indiana in the early days of the last century. I could not find info offhand about KKK in WI but I do know that Humphrey railed about its influence in Minnesota.

I did find this list of alleged sundown towns in WI:

Algoma
Altoona
Antigo
Appleton
Ashland
Barron
Beaver Dam
Berlin
Black River Falls
Bloomer
Boscobel
Brillion
Brodhead
Burlington
Cedarburg
Chilton
Chippewa Falls
Clintonville
Columbus
Combined Locks
Cudahy
De Pere
Delafield
Dodgeville
Eau Claire
Edgerton
Elkhorn
Elm Grove
Evansville
Fond du Lac
Fort Atkinson
Freeble
Grafton
Green Bay
Greendale
Hales Corners
Hartford
Hartland
Horicon
Howard
Hudson
Hurley
Janesville
Jefferson
Kaukauna
Kewaunee
Kiel
Kimberly
Ladysmith
Lake Geneva
Lake Mills
Lancaster
Little Chute
Manitowoc
Marinette
Marshfield
Mauston
Mayville
McFarland
Medford
Menasha
Menomonie
Mequon
Merrill
Middleton
Milton
Mineral Point
Mondovi
Monroe
Mosinee
Mount Horeb
Mukwonago
Muskego
Neenah
Neillsville
Nekoosa
New Holstein
New London
New Richmond
North Fond du Lac
Oconomowoc
Oconto
Oconto Falls
Okauchee Lake
Omro
Oregon
Oshkosh
Park Falls
Peshtigo
Pewaukee
Platteville
Plymouth
Port Washington
Prairie du Chien
Prescott
Reedsburg
Rhinelander
Rice Lake
Richland Center
Ripon
River Falls
Rothschild
Sauk City
Schofield
Seymour
Shawano
Sheboygan
Sheboygan Falls
Shorewood
Slinger
South Milwaukee
Spooner
Stanley
Stevens Point
Stoughton
Sturgeon Bay
Sturtevant
Sun Prairie
Sussex
Thiensville
Tomah
Tomahawk
Two Rivers
Union Grove
Viroqua
Washburn
Watertown
Waupaca
Wausau
Wauwatosa
West Allis
West Bend
West Milwaukee
Weston
Whitefish Bay
Whitewater
Wisconsin Rapids

http://sundown.afro.illinois.edu/sundowntownsshow.php?state=WI

John Henry

Rhythm and Balls said...

Oh FFS, "college town" is an expression.

Ann Althouse said...

I know it's an expression, but it's not descriptive in the context of the problem under discussion.

Anonymous said...

Who cares?

AJ Lynch said...


Don't feel bad Reverend, that is how the elites fix things in the good old USA.

Don't believe me? Then check out how many middle class folks were on Joe Biden's Middle Cass Task Force:

http://tinyurl.com/c8anvg

Scott said...

There are so few Black people in Madison, well, if I were Black and I saw somebody from NPR walking toward me with a microphone, I would run and hide.

(If I were Black, my naked selfies would probably be more interesting, too.)

James Pawlak said...

Now if, and only if, Blacks would:
1. Totally reject their very inferior sub-culture as defined by Professor Thomas Sowell in his "Black Rednecks & White Liberals";
2. Give up their self-enslavement to the DNC; And,
3. Demand that our democratically passed immigration laws be fully enforced to limit the number of jobs being stolen by "illegals".

traditionalguy said...

Whites are unfamiliar with black people and black people are unfamiliar with white people. It takes an effort to get to know the other type. And we are lazy unless we find a reason to get together.

The solution is simple. Going to church together, the more Bapticostal the better, and playing golf together.

So unless Crack regularly attends a great church such as Brooklyn Baptist Tabernacle and regularly plays golf with white folks, then he is a part of the problem.

Us white guys can't do all of the work.

chiron said...

Crack writes:
"You guys really don't listen to black people, but like putting your own opinion in place of what we say, huh?"

Are you serious? Black opinion is vastly over-represented relative to population (should be only about one out of eight commentators), and almost all "You guys" want to talk about is how other people keep you from having a decent life and what other people owe you.

eddie willers said...

Here in the sweet sunny south the thinking has been that the blackrace is horrible, a disgrace, but that individual blacks are our friends and neighbors. Wasnt always so but it certainly is today. Including in some of the deepest darkest rednecky hamlets.

I am 62, born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia.

What you say is true and for all my life I have heard it expressed this way:.

Southerners hate the race and love the individual.
Yankees love the race and hate the individual.

Back when I was "Meathead" to my father's "Archie", I would hear him rant about Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown etc. and I would ask, "What about the Fraziers or the DuMonts?" and he would say, "They're different"

Yeah, they were.

And that is why when my high school was desegregated in 1965, it was just another day.

Hyphenated American said...

""You guys really don't listen to black people, but like putting your own opinion in place of what we say, huh?"

I listen to smart, educated black people - Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams. Listening to Crack is useless, he is just of those typical racists, his color is irrelevant.

And btw, it's not relevant that Sowell or Williams are black too - they are just brilliant guys, their race is not relevant.

Hyphenated American said...

"In fact, much of the upper midwest – Chicago, Madison, Milwaukee, Minneapolis – seems to fit that pattern. Prosperous, orderly, liberal whites; poor, utterly demoralized blacks."

Isn't this the case everywhere though, and not just in America.

donald said...

Paco Wové,

In fact, much of the upper midwest – Chicago, Madison, Milwaukee, Minneapolis – seems to fit that pattern. Prosperous, orderly, liberal whites; poor, utterly demoralized blacks.

Or you could say free or neutral territory during slavery, but all with Black Laws and so forth, resulting in the blacks held down through Jim Crow, resulting in the obvious.

I know, you were going for something about whites being GREAT, but, well, my explanation's got the maps and everything,...


Actually, he wasn't, but you howl at that moon bitch. You just go right ahead.

Freeman Hunt said...

"I'm not the regular audience, and the forced blandness made me want to scream."

This is how I feel about NPR.

Jon Burack said...

For as long as I was in Madison (48 years), it has been agonizing about why the racial achievement gap is so wide. Rarely, if ever, has the liberal machine so dominant there even questioned the idea that its own liberal presuppositions might have something to do with the fact. The presumption is that residual racial bias of one sort or another persists and must be rooted out - with more non-white teachers, with "culturally sensitive" curriculum, etc. So it is hardly surprising that a liberal outside Madison would adopt the same utterly unself-critical approach. There really is nothing surprising at all about a largely liberal establishment in charge of a city deeply divided over race. Same is so of many big cities, as well as small college towns.

Michael said...

I thought it was a nice touch that the nice white ladies of Madison took time from their many other concerns to teach young black women how to play with their own children.

Imagine, if you can, the audacity.

The Crack Emcee said...

chiron,

"Are you serious? Black opinion is vastly over-represented relative to population (should be only about one out of eight commentators),.."

Oh yeah - like we haven't gotten more out of MLK's or Malcolm's input, than these whites who didn't even know how to make "All Men Are Created Equal" true on their own.

White guys are a joke when it comes to understanding this country, it's history, it's culture - anything that doesn't reflect white supremacy. That's the problem of indoctrination. Lies are practically all you know.

Since, of course - and as whites have been discovering to their surprise - they were the only ones who ever bought into the idea of whites being superior,...

The Crack Emcee said...

John Henry,

You can't talk to white racists about Wisconsin's sundown towns - that would imply, again, that whites are historically evil so (since we know white racists can't cope with the historical fact whites are America's bad guys) let the Nazis stick with their blacks-are-stupid stories - WHICH THEY'RE STILL CLAIMING TO THIS DAY - if such lies make them happy with their soon-to-be-much-more-limited lives.

Notice how they ALL ignored your list? That's cognitive dissonance. Denial. Everyone white, ignoring facts they don't want to deal with, as a group - though they hate collective action in others, you know.

Also, notice James Pawlak can't write about "Blacks inferior sub-culture" if he acknowledges sundown towns - because an inferior black subculture didn't create them. Only an evil white one did, just as an evil white culture created it's black subculture through sundown towns. Whites were in charge - they made the rules. Blame yourselves.

I also love how Pawlak speaks of "self-enslavement to the DNC". That's rich. If we stay with the white racists, we're slaves. If we leave the white racists, we're in "self-enslavement" - to his white mind - because WE'RE STILL NOT WITH THE FOLKS WHO HAD SUNDOWN TOWNS.

Fucking hilarious.

Then he wants blacks to start picking on the Mexicans - the next group evil whites want to exploit. He'll probably promise sundown towns for Mexicans in the future.

Anything but whites having to change from being evil.

Sick shit, Man. Really. White people are so confused. And culturally, so evil. Attack, attack, attack is all they know - even while trying to build a country - which requires understanding and cohesion. They see only enemies to abuse.

Some truly sick and sad ideas - from some truly sick and sad people,...

The Crack Emcee said...

eddie willers,

"Southerners hate the race and love the individual.
Yankees love the race and hate the individual."

Blacks catch Hell either way, so who's bragging?

The Crack Emcee said...

Hyphenated American,

"I listen to smart, educated black people"

You left out the words "that I agree with".

The 97% who think your guys are bonkers?

You ignore them for your bootlickers,...

The Crack Emcee said...

Archie,

"Who cares?"

Bunker, is that you?

The Crack Emcee said...

Hyphenated American,

"Isn't this the case everywhere though, and not just in America."

Since the whole country's racist, yeah.

The Crack Emcee said...

Jon Burack,

"For as long as I was in Madison (48 years), it has been agonizing about why the racial achievement gap is so wide."

That list of sun down towns never made it into your purview, I take it? It's implications never made clear?

"Rarely, if ever, has the liberal machine,…"

You guys - with your liberal obsession - you're fucking nuts. Liberals didn't build sundown towns - conservatives did. Liberals didn't do lynchings - conservatives did.

You're political fools of the highest order (made that way by the Right) and in need of serious mental assistance (made that way by slavery),...

The Crack Emcee said...

donald,

"Actually, he wasn't, but you howl at that moon bitch. You just go right ahead."

Hey - if you guys can explain the role of those sundown towns in a decent manner, that didn'tt have a negative effect on blacks and their income, then I'll be glad to hear it and admit I'm wrong.

Of course, I know whites NEVER admit they're wrong (their shit comes out perfumed, in plastic bags, too) so I won't hold my breath for equal treatment,...

The Crack Emcee said...

That list of sundown towns is great because, all of a sudden, Wisconsin don't look so liberal. It's historical racism shines through.

Now, if you want to know why blacks live where they do or why poverty is concentrated where fit is, you can check and see where people are historically free and where they aren't and it all makes sense.

Of course, you could always check those redlining maps too, but that brings us back to government intervention in black lives, as well, and then THAT brings us back to reparations - which addresses such things as sundown towns.

The idea of whites treating blacks as they have, and then deciding blacks are poor because they're not intelligent, is the most cockamamy shit I can imagine. The intellectual endeavors of retards. Why are blacks in poverty? They don't seem to be stupid:

"Duh, we forgot we torture them, too."

It's like they want blacks to be stupid enough to make the same mistake and think "No skin color? No brains!"

As goofy as Barney Fife,….

Jon Burack said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael said...

Crack

Not going to be reparations, pal, the Dems dont need the votes of black people since they have them already. White supremacists did not get supreme by being stupid, by paying twice. You can write about the very real horrors of 400 years for black people til your tits come loose but there arent going to be reparations. You can lablel all of us who dont contribute directly to you as racist fools, white devils, ignorant, all the repetitive adjectives you use daily, but there are not going to be reparations. Doesnt matter whether you deserve them or not. There will be none.

As you have gathered, most white people do not give one milisecond of a thought about black people their entire lives. Maybe if they get cut off in traffic but otherwise none at all.

Jon Burack said...

Hey, Crack Emcee, I did not realize you were running this blog, but it seems you are here.

I do not know what the list of sundown towns has to do in the least with the point I was making about Madison, a point you do not really address at all. Which has to do with the fact that in Madison we have a liberal community with deep racial disparities. I know all about sundown towns and the KKK in the 1920s. What I do also know, and you do not seem to see this at all, is that those towns were not necessarily all "conservative" either. You suggest it is only conservatives who are racists. In fact, in the early part of the century, the Progressive movement was also deeply racist in many ways. Go read what W.E.B. Du Bois had to say about Woodrow Wilson for instance. Check out the prohibition movement, or the eugenics crusades, which were both progressive not conservative, and both of which expressed a deep, anti-immigrant, anti-black venom. Maybe if you were not so busy insisting that no one is on the right side of history but you, you might notice that the world does not divide up quite as neatly as you suggest.

As to Madison, whatever the problems of long-gone sundown towns, its racial disparities persist in the fact of near total control by those who like you also feel they know the right and wrong sides of history and are totally uncritical about which side they might be on.

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:

You guys really don't listen to black people, but like putting your own opinion in place of what we say, huh?

The black minister made it on tv and got to say what he wanted to say which was that blacks aren't getting to say what they want to say. Only he did.

jr565 said...

Crack Emcee wrote:

Sick shit, Man. Really. White people are so confused. And culturally, so evil. Attack, attack, attack is all they know - even while trying to build a country - which requires understanding and cohesion. They see only enemies to abuse.


Says the guy who's every utterance is the equivalent of "white folks are evil". What understanding and cohesion are you expecting to get from that?
If this were a town hall meeting you'd long have been ejected from the room for trying to undermine actual dialog with your racist rants. And hopefully black people who weren't quite so bigoted, who are actually trying to get something accomplished could get a word in over your racial screed.

jr565 said...

Crack wrote:
That list of sundown towns is great because, all of a sudden, Wisconsin don't look so liberal. It's historical racism shines through.

It's not skin off my nose to say that blue states are racist. Because I think the democratic party is the racist party.

jr565 said...

Crack's discussion of sundown towns:
Again something that is no longer in existence.
Was it republicans or democrats responsible?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town

"in Hawthorne, California, which read "N*gger, Don't Let The Sun Set On YOU In Hawthorne" in the 1930s"
Was Hawthorne california in the 1930's republican or democrat?

Also, when sundown cities existed there was still segregation. Since there is no longer segregation the issue is no longer relevant.
I never visited a Sundown city because I wasn't born in 1930. Was Crack? If he was that would make him about 80 years old right about now.
Desegration was the remedy for that, and that's what we are all living under. If that's not good enough for you, then I suggest you find another place to live.

jr565 said...

crack, Margaret Sanger was a liberal through and through. And she wanted to use abortion to weed out the unfit, and lesser races. Eugenics was not a conservative argument but a progressive one.

jr565 said...

crack, Margaret Sanger was a liberal through and through. And she wanted to use abortion to weed out the unfit, and lesser races. Eugenics was not a conservative argument but a progressive one.

jr565 said...

Crack wrote: You guys really don't listen to black people, but like putting your own opinion in place of what we say, huh?

That seems to be an indictment of the media. Which is predominantly liberal or conservative? So, if there is an issue with the media ignoring black voices, shouldn't you direct your grievance at the lilly white LIBERAL media and not the conservatives who don't make up the MSM?
Kanye West did the same thing when he attacked Bush for his handling of Katrina. He didn't like how the media was highlighting the black looters taking tvs. But he made the argument as if George Bush was the one targeting blacks who looted.
What gets on tv is the media's responsibility. If THEY are highlighting black looters and you want to call that racist, then look to the people shaping the media. Liberals.

Fernandinande said...

John said:
Juvenile arrest rate per 100,000:
Dane County 469/77 (black/white)


You omit Asians, of course, since they disprove your "racism" theory.

Page 19, junveile arrests:
Population (age 10 to 17, thousands):
(White/black/Asian) 36/3.4/2.0
Arrests: 4.6/3.0/.12/
Rates: .17/.88/.06

So, please explain how racism causes white kids to be arrested at almost 3X the rate of Asians? 3X is a big difference: are the cops mostly racist Asians who pick on non-Asians?

While your at it, explain why blacks attending the same school as whites and Asians do so poorly.

http://www.greatschools.org/wisconsin/madison/863-Memorial-High-School/?tab=test-scores

Language Arts (% passing state test)
All Students 73%
Black 33%
Asian/Pacific Islander 85%
Hispanic[sic] 39%
White 89%

Math
All Students 59%
Black 13%
Asian/Pacific Islander 73%
Hispanic 33%
White 77%

Etc...

Gahrie said...

crack, Margaret Sanger was a liberal through and through. And she wanted to use abortion to weed out the unfit, and lesser races. Eugenics was not a conservative argument but a progressive one.

Actually, Sanger was a progressive. She was one of the leaders of the first wave of progressives in the early 20th century.

However she was indeed a proponent of eugenics, as were most progressives. It is one of the reasons the Left was so in love with the facists and communists...all three groups believed in "managing" the population of the poor and undesirable like livestock.

Sanger founded Planned Parenthood with the purpose of reducing the reproduction of the poor and inferior (and she definitely thought of Blacks as inferior) through birth control and abortion. She's been pretty successful.

ussmidway said...

I am white and grew up in the upper Midwest in the 1960s - 1970s; the remnants of Jim Crow color my early memories. My grandfather was a common racist - like all his contemporaries - and he was casually open about his negative views on 'the Jews", who were similarly excluded from the halls of power.

This was typical behavior for establishment whites in the post-war era in these growing, prosperous cities of the North. To their credit, they, and their children eventually grew to be ashamed by these retrograde views and raised the next generation of Baby-Boomers to accept blacks as equals and supported politicians -- both D & R flavors -- who backed civil rights.

This new generation would later come together out of compassion to provide private financing to relocate entire Hmong communities from SE Asia to the frozen tundra in the 1980s, and again 20 years later with the Somali refugees who have since been settled in the Midwest.

Notwithstanding the questionable logic of moving 3rd world tribes from their tropically warm, native lands to the snow belt, this effort shows the distance traveled along the humanitarian continuum over the last 60 years in these local US cultures. Racism as a living, societal force for oppression is now a hollow shell of memories on the Great Plains.

None of this can truly reverse the legacy of the harm inflicted on historically disfavored minority communities. However, it does point to a brighter future, and it should be weighed in the balance when judging the culture that exists in this part of the country.

Great discussions here and I do appreciate that Crack shows up to participate -- it would be much less interesting if he was not here. We need more discussion online with diverse views, and fewer intellectual ghettos where everyone thinks the same way. Crack is a useful irritant that keeps the wonderful Althouse blog more healthy.

Garage Mahal is another matter -- he rarely makes the vitriol he brings to the discussion worth the effort to read.

John said...

Fernandinande:

Good point about the Asians and thanks for adding the stats.

I left them out because the discussion was about black/white racism and I wanted to focus on that.

An issue with asians data is that it is so wide and covers so many different and completely diverse ethnic backgrounds. What do an Indian, a Chinese, a Filipino and a Samoan have in common?

But it does raise a point that I have mentioned in other threads. The Chinese were brought here and worked under conditions analogous to slavery. Nowhere near as severe, of course, but analogous.

They faced discrimination and lynching every bit as severe as blacks. In some aspects perhaps even worse.

Yet they do very well, having higher average income than whites.

So what is it about Chinese? Are they smarter (higher IQ) than whites or blacks? I doubt it.

So how come they overcame severe racism and not only survived but thrive?

Blacks whose ancestors came to the US via Caribbean slavery also have higher incomes than whites. Any thoughts on why?

Why are some groups able to overcome adversity better than others?

Crack, do you have any thoughts on this?

John Henry

The Crack Emcee said...

Jon Burack,

"You suggest it is only conservatives who are racists."

You obviously haven't been here very long,...

The Crack Emcee said...

Jon Burack,

"As to Madison, whatever the problems of long-gone sundown towns, its racial disparities persist in the fact of near total control by those who like you also feel they know the right and wrong sides of history and are totally uncritical about which side they might be on."

I don't get it? What "side" do you think I'm on? This is what the reparations movement is addressing - the fact THE COUNTRY'S RACIST - and you think I'm on a side?

You talk like a fool.

The Crack Emcee said...

John,

"Why are some groups able to overcome adversity better than others?

Crack, do you have any thoughts on this?"

Why does this seem so obvious to me and whites miss it so readily? It's like you're blind, but insist on making blacks live by what you "see":

The Chinese are from China - they have a home, somewhere, in a country, somewhere, with a culture, of some kind, etc. - that sustains them, even from far away.

Blacks are a people born out of American slavery - our home is with our hostile captors, in country that's unfair to us, featuring a culture that ridicules us when it doesn't hate our guts - and we live as simply a reminder of the future's past.

And any attempt we make to escape that, or correct it, is met with resistance.

Clear?

Fernandinande said...

John said:
What do an Indian, a Chinese, a Filipino and a Samoan have in common?


Good point, and not a whole lot; if you look at the Hsu post I referenced above (and many of his other posts), East and SE Asians are smarter than whites, the others dumber (tho they still get better grades in school - tho 10th-grade grades are a pretty poor metric for predicting life outcomes).

So what is it about Chinese? Are they smarter (higher IQ) than whites or blacks? I doubt it.

Quite a bit smarter. That's why 43% of CalTech undergrads are Asian, mostly Chinese. And the further away you get from the mean, i.e., the ability to be a doctor, lawyer or engineer, on up to physicist, the more difference it makes: with average IQ os 100, 110 and 85, about 9% of whites have IQs > 120; about 24% of E. Asians do, and only about 1% of blacks. It makes a BIG difference in group results.)

So how come they overcame severe racism and not only survived but thrive?

Genes. Though this info is generally derided or ignored by the Lysenkoist MSM, it's well known that both cognitive ability (IQ) and personality are mostly genetically determined and inherited.

Early interventions like Head Start have no measurable effect, and, absent very gross abuse, parenting has little or no effect on the outcomes of children, so "sending a social worker into the homes of young black mothers to help them play with their toddlers properly" won't make any difference, except perhaps to let the social workers feel good about themselves for a short while.

And that's why "But what does he think should be done?" isn't answered - everything they try fails because they consistently ignore the heretical reality of genetics. I could post a hundred links to as many papers, but the full "disparity" paper I reffed above has many of them.

Jon Burack said...

Crack

The reparations movement is addressing the fact that the COUNTRY is racist, you say. Since you are claiming not to be on any "side," I take it what you mean is ALL sides in the country, the entire country itself, is racist - so why be on any side? I wonder then why you think (or is just the reparations movement that thinks) there is some point to badgering the country to pay reparations. I mean if the entire country is racist, all sides, it is certainly never going to pay reparations for what it must think was okay to start wit, right? Why bother?

Or at least do you see why some of us might be confused by what your point actually is? While awaiting actual clarification, I stick by my remarks that depicted you as identifying conservatives as the source of the problem, since it was you who made the issue about sundown towns and said liberals didn't build them, conservatives did. Or did I miss something? (by asking this, I at least might get a "yes" out of you.)

John said...

Fernanande

This is not really a good place to get into a discussion about the ins and outs of IQ but I will make a couple of comments in response to yours:

Group IQs (ethnic, racial, cultural geographic and other groupings) can increase dramatically in relatively short periods of time. From generation to generation, even. While there is a genetic factor to IQ, there is also a cultural factor.

Upbringing, including not just home life but all surroundings, school etc does have a dramatic impact on outcomes. The child who grows up in a home where education is not valued, where self-discipline is not taught, family members have not worked regularly for several generations etc will not learn what they need to be successful in life. They will view this kind of wasted life as normal and perpetuate it.

The child of ordinary IQ who is taught that they are valuable, that they can accomplish things, that education is important, whose parents fight to make sure they get a good one and so on will do much better in life than a child in the former home who might have a genius IQ.

I am not talking about blacks here. I am talking about all races. I had a similar conversation over dinner a couple weeks ago with a school teacher in western NC. She was going on and on about the kids in the area who were growing up as the former.

Or read Theodore Dalrymple's book "Life at the Bottom" about kids growing up in Britain. These are white kids and exhibit all the same pathologies that many attribute to American blacks.

Thomas Sowell has written extensively on IQ, race and accomplishment.

John Henry

John said...

Several people, including myself, have mentioned Thomas Sowell in this thread. I highly recommend him.

Many may know him from his regular newspaper column but this is not really fair. His columns are fine but he really can't get going too much in 400 words or so. His books are the place to go to find out about him. They are scholarly but, unlike many scholarly books are easily accessible to the general reader.

His trilogy on race world has lots of info, with stats and references.

My favorite of all his books is his Ethnic America. In this book he looks at 9 ethnic/racial groups including "Americans from England", "Americans from Europe", Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa and others

Each chapter follows the same format starting with a bit about the homeland, how they came to be in the US, education, jobs (Germans in optics and brewing, for example) geographic settlement in the US and why and so on.

The great thing about the book is that it allows direct comparison of groups.

John Henry