Althouse: "There’s nothing lesbians hate more than women like me. I know, because back when I was a lesbian..."

May 29, 2014

"There’s nothing lesbians hate more than women like me. I know, because back when I was a lesbian..."

"... I hated me. Or at least I empathized with my ex-girlfriend when she talked about hating who I’ve become. Bisexuals, she said, glommed onto lesbians because they feared their fathers, or had been devastated by ex-boyfriends. For them, lesbianism was a vacation from the pressures of heterosexuality. Even feminine lesbians were to be regarded with healthy skepticism. You never knew when one might turn...."

86 comments:

SGT Ted said...: Hahaha I love it when the alleged opononents of homophobia and hate are outted as bigots and sexists in their private sex lives.

More Popcorn please!; 5/29/14, 10:27 AM
Sorun said...: That was exhausting.; 5/29/14, 10:27 AM
mccullough said...: 15 years. You can't say she didn't give it a chance.; 5/29/14, 10:28 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Considering all the lesbians, and hardcore feminist, women I've slept with (because, somehow, their preferences seem to change around 3:30 AM or so) I just think most people are very, very confused.

There, I said it,...; 5/29/14, 10:28 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: One of the nice things about being a guy is it's seldom that a women uses you for sex.; 5/29/14, 10:35 AM
Emil Blatz said...: Reminds me of my 2nd ex-wife.; 5/29/14, 10:43 AM
PB said...: I guess that kinda undermines the concept that sexuality is never a choice...; 5/29/14, 10:44 AM
Xmas said...: I like the start of the comment thread for that article.

So...she's had a change of heart after spending her younger years at the sexual carnival of lesbianism. It happens. Sexuality is a fluid thing, as you age, as your body changes, as your life changes, the things that titillated you as a teenager are humdrum in your 30s.; 5/29/14, 10:56 AM
Anonymous said...: It's best to avoid the ignorance of stereotyping. This woman, does not represent anything but her own self. Many people think they've accomplished the impossible & have found their one true path in life.; 5/29/14, 10:59 AM
Ann Althouse said...: I remember a conversation with an old friend who said that if she didn't find a man within X amount of time she was going to become a lesbian. I exclaimed: You can't do that! It doesn't work like that! You can say you think it would be easier to be a lesbian, and you want to be a lesbian, and you may even engage in the sexual behavior desired by lesbians, but that doesn't make you a lesbian.

But maybe she was bisexual. I don't think she was and she didn't say she was. She just seemed to think she could switch to the other team.; 5/29/14, 11:01 AM
Tank said...: At least when you’re dating a woman you can act as crazy as you feel.

Wait a minute, women are crazier than we men even think they are?; 5/29/14, 11:05 AM
RecChief said...: because back when I was a lesbian

I've been told for many years that it's genetic. Non-changeable.

What gives?; 5/29/14, 11:05 AM
RecChief said...: smug in my otherness

Maybe that is the key right there? Anyone who is revels in their own smugness must really be insufferable in real life.; 5/29/14, 11:07 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: But maybe she was bisexual. I don't think she was and she didn't say she was. She just seemed to think she could switch to the other team.

I do think that it is easier for women to switch to the other team, and that the percentage of bi-sexuals is probably a lot larger for women than for men. For most men, it seems that the divide is much sharper.

I would suggest that as a guy, you can often tell the difference between truly homosexual lesbians, and the others, who could, conceivably, swing our way. There is some sort of sexual tension with the bisexual/heterosexual lesbians that is completely missing with the homosexual lesbians.

It can be quite humorous. Several times I have found myself flirting across the room with women, and then when I moved in, was told, on no uncertain terms, that they were on a date with the woman that they were with. Not faking it either to get rid of me, but much more like a jealous boyfriend. Only maybe worse.

I get along great with homosexual lesbians. And, decently with some hetero/bi lesbians. But, not with the man haters, who often discovered lesbianism after marriage and kids. Every slight given them by men over their lives is piled onto you. Not pleasant, and not my fault. I was quite happy when one of my friends moved from a man hater to a woman who appeared to be homosexual to me.; 5/29/14, 11:15 AM
virgil xenophon said...: Althouse you educated fool, that's EXACTLY what it means, many (if not most) Lesbians CAN choose to switch to the other team. Where do you think the term "LUGs" (Lesbians until Graduation) came from? Beamed in from the planet Mongo by the Ming the Merciless? No the term LUG is a reflection not only of current reality but of the fact that the current some two decades plus tide of Lesbianism on college campii where previously such was all but non-existent proves that the vast majority of "practicing" college lesbians are simply playing with life-style choices surfing the latest chi-chi sociocultural craze. Genetics, for most (but obviously not all) lesbians, has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it.; 5/29/14, 11:19 AM
tim maguire said...: If you think you could switch to the other team, you probably could.; 5/29/14, 11:20 AM
Anonymous said...: Now I felt like an anthropologist with no primary sources, suddenly thrown into the field.

Believing what you read in Cosmo, as she's apparently done, is more like being an anthropologist who's decided to use Heart of Darkness as a primary source.; 5/29/14, 11:22 AM
~ Gordon Pasha said...: Anatomy is destiny.; 5/29/14, 11:25 AM
Bob Ellison said...: This cowboy walks into a bar...; 5/29/14, 11:25 AM
~ Gordon Pasha said...: Anatomy is destiny.; 5/29/14, 11:25 AM
Levi Starks said...: I don't even need to read into the article, the intro is already the funniest thing I'll read all day.; 5/29/14, 11:37 AM
MaxedOutMama said...: I think "bisexual" is the word she's trying not to speak and that's what she finds so exhausting.

But who cares? I just wish individuals would stop thinking their own sex lives are so relevant to the rest of us. They are, I concede, relevant if you are having children, because children are the bones of society. But if you are just sleeping around without leaving a trail of wreckage or spawning children - not relevant, to this generation or the next.

I do have to say that I don't think het women have more complicated dating/relationship lives at all. With guys, it's easy. If you are even halfway decent looking, the guy's default mode is "Yes" to female interest. The only reason it gets complicated is when you are looking for the "real thing", which is what makes me think she's really bisexual. Otherwise, she could just walk up to a guy and say "Ya wanna?" and bam! The deal is closed.

It's only ethics that make it at all complicated, because you generally have to ensure that the guy isn't seeing someone because you don't want to poach, what with the Guy Yes switch being stuck in the "On" position. He might not even really want to do it, but still do it, because (cue Madonna) he was Born That Way.

Unless, of course, you are doing that in certain neighborhoods like West Hollywood. Then the magic could fail. You could become dispirited and demoralized quite quickly.

But basically, it's easy to be a het woman exploring your own sexuality. All the complications come in when you are trying to find a guy whose kids you want to have. If that's what she's really doing she'd better decide fast, because, you know, 35.

Geeze, why do people have to make things so complicated?; 5/29/14, 11:39 AM
Drago said...: Ann Althouse: "You can't do that! It doesn't work like that!"

Behold the tolerance and open-mindedness!

Could this be labeled as "hetero-splainin'"?; 5/29/14, 11:39 AM
MaxedOutMama said...: Crack Emcee - maybe so, but if so, why?; 5/29/14, 11:40 AM
Drago said...: As far as "bi-phobia" in the lesbian community, it is very very much alive and well.

In fact, the more radical the lesbian feminist, the more vehement the attacks on the "bi" side of the house.; 5/29/14, 11:41 AM
traditionalguy said...: Lesbians with seduction powers are the really mean ones today. They are the ones at war who feel entitled to do anything to rescue a women they want from nasty men... men whose only crime is to want a wife to cherish.; 5/29/14, 11:41 AM
Renee said...: This is why there is a distinction between orientation and behavior. The CDC doesn't reference behavior as gay sex, but men having sex with men. So yeah, I can see and relate to taking a vacation from men.; 5/29/14, 11:42 AM
Renee said...: Orientation isn't a choice, what we do with it is.; 5/29/14, 11:43 AM
Moose said...: Is it OK to hate lesbians again?; 5/29/14, 11:49 AM
B said...: Althouse said: You can say you think it would be easier to be a lesbian, and you want to be a lesbian, and you may even engage in the sexual behavior desired by lesbians, but that doesn't make you a lesbian.

If we can redefine marriage, we can redefine lesbian. Words can mean whatever we want. We live in exciting times.; 5/29/14, 11:50 AM
paul a'barge said...: Penises have a gravitational attractive force far beyond their inert mass would indicate.; 5/29/14, 11:53 AM
paul a'barge said...: an old friend who said that if she didn't find a man within X amount of time she was going to become a lesbian

so many, so long, so what.; 5/29/14, 11:55 AM
Alexander said...: Why not? If you can "self-identify" as a man or a woman and then we're all supposed to treat you as such, who are you to say that a person can't simply up and be a lesbian?; 5/29/14, 12:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Yeah, I see the "vacation from the pressures of heterosexuality" (i.e. guys and the 24/7 porn culture) even more in the younger generation because things are more open now. I don't think there is the sinister plotting aspect that is hinted at here. I agree with Crack that it's confusion (or natural waxing and waning).; 5/29/14, 12:11 PM
Sydney said...: What percentage of homosexuals do you suppose are natural homosexuals vs free choice homosexuals? Do you think it differs between men vs. women? I suppose there is no way to really answer that question since it depends so much on self-identification and reporting. (And by the way, this is why it is not valid to equate the gay rights movement to the civil rights movement); 5/29/14, 12:15 PM
Sam L. said...: I didn't know what I was doing when I started dating women. I did eventually figure something out.; 5/29/14, 12:19 PM
Heartless Aztec said...: I always thought how convenient it would be to be a gay or bi-sexual man. As in - "Hey, thanx pal. See ya' around." Maybe not....; 5/29/14, 12:21 PM
Andy Freeman said...: > you may even engage in the sexual behavior desired by lesbians, but that doesn't make you a lesbian.

So now you're telling people what their sexuality is.

> She just seemed to think she could switch to the other team.

Did she?; 5/29/14, 12:40 PM
David said...: It seems that for many people it's very hard to be a lesbian. For a while the dogma was that legal recognition and cultural acceptance would change all that. Does not seem to be going that way though.; 5/29/14, 12:46 PM
n.n said...: The Crack Emcee:

LGBT... C. Even better, a minority of society has decided to normalize confusion as a legal and social principle.; 5/29/14, 12:48 PM
William said...: The dark undercurrent of a woman's sexuality is masochism, not lesbianism. Until recent times a woman had a high chance of dying in childbirth and the birthing process itself was excruciatingly painful. Masochism was the only way to make sense of this predicament and keep the human race replicating.....I suppose nowadays women sublimate their masochism by voting for Obama or getting tattooed, but masochism is hard wired into their sexuality.; 5/29/14, 12:49 PM
David said...: From John Leo at Minding the Campus:

Number One finding in the annual survey of Harvard seniors: about 60 percent of African-Americans and more than 40 percent of Latino and Asian-American students have felt marginalized because of their race while at Harvard. "Marginalized," an invitation to aggrievement, is now a mainstream college term, raising the question, "How marginalized can you be if they let you into Harvard?" Another survey finding provides a rough answer to that query: "Seniors are nearly unanimous in the view that, if given the chance, they would choose Harvard again." - See more at: http://www.mindingthecampus.com/forum/2014/05/survey_privileged_harvard_stud.html#sthash.mhNw105l.dpuf

Kind of off topic, but another example of the ridiculousness of the complaints we hear from the advantaged.; 5/29/14, 1:02 PM
David said...: "I guess that kinda undermines the concept that sexuality is never a choice..."

But sex nearly always is.; 5/29/14, 1:03 PM
Anthony said...: I'd hit that.

In my crude, heteronormative patriarchal fashion.; 5/29/14, 1:07 PM
gerry said...: She just seemed to think she could switch to the other team.

Ummm...just wait until the scientific consensus becomes that sexuality is as much of a choice as it is not.

I predict less than twenty years for the scientific consensus to change to that.; 5/29/14, 1:15 PM
gerry said...: Oh, and do "glomming onto" and cunnilingus have anything to do with things?; 5/29/14, 1:18 PM
Kevin said...: Once again, most women are bisexual, very few are purely straight or purely gay and WOMEN DO CHOOSE; most men are straight, some are gay, very very few are truly bisexual, and MEN DO NOT CHOOSE.

Women's sexuality is more flexible because hundreds of thousands of years of kidnappings and rape will do that to you.

What always messes up everything is that people on both sides of the issue treat men and women as having the same experience for the same reasons, but they simply don't.; 5/29/14, 1:19 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Ann,

I was once with a lesbian who freaked-the-fuck-out after the act was completed. In total shame and confused.

I lost a good watch getting out of there,...; 5/29/14, 1:30 PM
Brian said...: "...you may even engage in the sexual behavior desired by lesbians, but that doesn't make you a lesbian."

Althouse rejects your ridiculous walking-and-quacking theory of duckhood.; 5/29/14, 1:38 PM
SJ said...: @PB Reader, @Ann

It might be that same-sex-attraction-among-females manifests in a different way than among males.

I can't claim to be an expert, but I've see a few pieces of evidence that some women easily switch from heterosexual behavior to bisexual or homosexual behavior.

I guess the big question is, how large is this group of women?

And are they really bisexual? Or did they change from heterosexual or homosexual into bisexual?

If it is an actual change of attraction, rather than simply acting on an attraction that they formerly didn't act on, how can anyone other than the person themselves tell?; 5/29/14, 1:45 PM
Left Bank of the Charles said...: This is all covered by the Dar Williams song Iowa (Travelling III).; 5/29/14, 1:50 PM
Paul said...: Well I confess... I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Oh well...; 5/29/14, 1:53 PM
madAsHell said...: their preferences seem to change around 3:30 AM or so

I'm guessing that where you live, the bars close around 3:30AM.; 5/29/14, 2:02 PM
Carol said...: OMG duck lips anyone; 5/29/14, 2:03 PM
Sam vfm #111 said...: "She just seemed to think she could switch to the other team."

I think almost all women can switch if they wish. Men can't, but women look at relationships differently.; 5/29/14, 2:14 PM
terrence said...: In the late 1990's, many college women like this were called "hasbians".

Many of them felt they HAD to be lesbians to show that they were open-minded.; 5/29/14, 3:21 PM
terrence said...: In the late 1990's, many college women like this were called "hasbians".

Many of them felt they HAD to be lesbians to show that they were open-minded.; 5/29/14, 3:21 PM
DKWalser said...: ...She just seemed to think she could switch to the other team.

Where did the notion that she cannot switch teams come from? I know that it's the commonly accepted wisdom, but I've never seen the scientific studies that support that one's sexual orientation does not involve some level of volition.

[I have seen studies that appear to refute that belief. See for example the studies of identical twins. If sexual orientation were innate, you would think that both twins would have the same sexual orientation. That's not the case. Where one twin is gay, there is less than a 50% chance that his twin is also gay. (I forget the exact numbers, but IIRC, the studies ranged from between 25% and 40%. That's a greater probability of the twin being gay than for the population as a whole, but it's pretty good evidence that "gayness" isn't primarily genetic.)]

The homosexual literature is replete with women who are lesbian for part of their lives and straight for other parts of their lives. The belief is that, for many women, sexual orientation is not firmly fixed. True? No idea. I've never been a women -- straight or not.; 5/29/14, 3:49 PM
Quaestor said...: The only people who will come out from this entire gay-lesbian-transgender brouhaha sane, whole, and reasonably happy will be monogamous heterosexuals, formerly known as normal people, soon to be known as survivors.; 5/29/14, 3:58 PM
Gospace said...: "PB Reader said...
I guess that kinda undermines the concept that sexuality is never a choice..."

It's comments like this that make me wish this blog had a "Like" button. Or thumbs up/down. Count this as a like.; 5/29/14, 3:59 PM
Rosalyn C. said...: Ann, they call that "bi-curious." They are the most confused of all.; 5/29/14, 4:02 PM
Mary Beth said...: Ann Althouse said...

I remember a conversation with an old friend who said that if she didn't find a man within X amount of time she was going to become a lesbian.

Did she find a man?; 5/29/14, 4:29 PM
The Godfather said...: @Althouse: Thanks for this post. It's nice to know that there's something in the world that I don't have to worry about.; 5/29/14, 4:30 PM
Bill Crawford said...: A book by a former lesbian who taught women's studies at Syracuse.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Thoughts-Unlikely-Convert-ebook/dp/B0097G05F8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1401399563&sr=1-1&keywords=butterfield

(Sorry - don't know how to do the link otherwise); 5/29/14, 4:41 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Chasing Amy covered this quite well.

Amy the lesbian is sitting around with her lesbian friends talking about how she's so in love, that "they" are so great, and "they" are so cute," and her friend says, "Why are we playing the pronoun game? Does this tube of wonderful have a name," and Amy says guiltily, "Holden," to stony silence. Then her friend says bitterly, "Another one bites the dust."; 5/29/14, 5:04 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: I always got the impression Mink, the schmada, in Miller's Crossing was bi.

But Eddie Dane? No, the Dane bats for only one team.; 5/29/14, 5:13 PM
Unknown said...: My first ex wife speculated that one kiss from the right person is all it would take to make her switch teams.

The person turned out to be me.; 5/29/14, 5:21 PM
Peter said...: Or maybe female sexuality is inherently more fluid than male sexuality?; 5/29/14, 5:27 PM
Unknown said...: Ok so it's an old joke. It's still good. And might even be true as far as regarding my first wife.; 5/29/14, 5:28 PM
Anonymous said...: I hope she finds whatever she's looking for.; 5/29/14, 6:25 PM
Anonymous said...: It's possible that she was just bisexual, nothing bad or particular, to me.
There are others, of course which are purely straight or gay.; 5/29/14, 6:26 PM
chillblaine said...: "all the lesbians, and hardcore feminist, women I've slept with.."

Good on ya, mate

Ladies go lez and hardcore fem AFTER I'm through with them.; 5/29/14, 7:38 PM
Julie C said...: I worked with a gal once and this topic came up. Her theory was that homosexual (men) were born that way, but that the majority of lesbians were made.; 5/29/14, 8:01 PM
Darrell said...: When scientists used a PET scan on bisexuals' brains, they never found a sungle person whose brain lit up for images of both sexes or members of both sexes in person. All the men were homosexuals, probably, because their brains only lit up for men. With women, it was more complicated. About 40% of self-identified bisexual women responded only to images of women--hinting that they were lesbians. But the other 60%, only registered brain stimulation for images of men--hinting that they were heterosexual. Follow up interviews had some of those admitting that they only did it with other women because the men in their lives wanted them to. Others said that they are with women because they were in an abusive relationship with a man and they couldn't handle things financially on their own, so they lived with a working woman. They went along with the sex to keep the relationship working. Women don't have to achieve a successful erection to have sex with a woman and mental arousal doesn't have to be present. Some said they didn't enjoy sex with men, either, and avoided it as much as possible when they were in a relationship with them.; 5/29/14, 8:31 PM
Donna B. said...: I am so tired of hearing about sexual anything and everything. I do not care whether any of you or none of you are lesbian, bi, gay, hetero, whatever.

I do NOT want to hear about your sex life and I don't want to tell you about mine.

Marry who you want, live with who you want, screw the pooch, whatever... just please don't tell me about it.; 5/29/14, 8:42 PM
Chef Mojo said...: My wife was lesbian when I met her. And a vegetarian.

Is there nothing bacon can't do?; 5/29/14, 8:55 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Did she find a man?"

Yes.; 5/29/14, 9:11 PM
Chuck said...: I thought for sure this was going to be about the Mayor of New York's wife.

What a disappointment; that it was just about lesbian dating, instead of something important.; 5/29/14, 9:39 PM
HG said...: Do we really have to do this ?; 5/29/14, 11:01 PM
gadfly said...: Wait! What happened to the old saw that homosexuality is an inherited condition?

Queers need to learn something from the Democrats about putting forth a public policy statement that they all can lie about. I assume that these gays and lesbians are all college-educated liberals, so part of their public image is holding.

So she "observed straight culture from a distance." Perspective says that you cannot distance yourself from a culture where the great majority ascribe to herterosexual mores.

Beth Middler reminds that "God is watching us, from a distance." So hum the damn song for the rest of the evening.; 5/29/14, 11:21 PM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: "I worked with a gal once and this topic came up. Her theory was that homosexual (men) were born that way, but that the majority of lesbians were made. "

I've heard this from women many times. They opine that lesbianism is either a stage young women pass through, or a choice made by women who feel they are out of acceptable options.; 5/30/14, 8:44 AM
Todd said...: A very good, close friend who happens to be a lesbian said one of the cruelest insults she ever received was from another lesbian. She was called a "lipstick dyke" because she dared to wear cosmetics. That one comment affected her behavior for years.; 5/30/14, 12:47 PM
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Unknown said...: I don't hate gays or lesbians as a rule. I do, however, view them with skepticism. Much like a used car dealer, it's not their "label", title or sexuality that I would dislike them for; it's their behavior I dislike. Backstabbing, disloyalty, drama, lies, etc. These behaviors, to my observation seem to occur with ever more bitter alacrity with the gays and lesbians I have personally known. If there is a homosexual person who doesn't engage in these activities, I have yet to see one.

I don't see their sexuality as a stigma or scarlet letter. I don't have to put a title or label on my own sexuality; to me it's just not an issue, so why should theirs be an issue to me? I don't go around announcing myself as heterosexual; what's the point? I keep my sexuality to myself. No need to spread it around.

I also have a dim view of people who label others as bigots or prejudiced. If I dislike the taste of asparagus, does it make me a bigot or prejudiced against vegetables? To me, people who yell out 'bigot' are similar to those who play the race card and, most probably have a chip on their shoulder, putting themselves in the same or worse of a category of those whom they accuse. A homosexual person calling people bigots only give one more reason to be hated. It just distracts from the real issue.

People who are heterosexual are by default anti homosexual. I don't think this view can be bifurcated. This does not mean that we are actively hating LGBT's, but passively, we are against homosexuality in general. This occurs in different degrees but gets heightened when we have these issues thrown in our faces.

Homosexuality may be a phenomenon and a right, but it is, most certainly, not normal nor desirable. To me, it's an aberration. Don't mistake me on this; I think everyone, regardless of orientation should have the same rights and privileges, but I don't think they should have any special status either.; 11/19/14, 9:33 AM
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Hello Greetings to everyone, I am Mrs. DAN TRACY From California, after Five years of marriage, My Husband divorces me off no reason, I cried all through and try all the possible best I could to make everything work out for good and to get him back but to no avail, I was confused and frustrated until I crossed a site of Dr.Adudu, I read everything completely on the site, it was talking about Love spells and reunion marriage spells and different types of spells, I was more confused on what to do because I don't believe on spell casters mostly on Love spells, though I decided to give a try out, I contacted DR Adudu and explained everything completely to her on what I am passing through to my own greatest surprise, Dr. Adudu told me that my husband is going to call me back to come home after three days she has finished casted the spell. I have believed on her and so surprising really my husband calls me back home and ask for forgiveness and he promised to Love me only and forever be with me only. All great thanks to Dr.Adudu for her marvelous spell work, contact her today by her email:DRADUDUSPELLTEMPLE@GMAIL.COM or you can call him weti this number, +2347050270268......; 12/14/15, 8:18 PM