December 20, 2013
"If the state bans speech that is offensive to some, where does it stop?"
"A person or persons’ right to speak does not end just because what they say or how they say it is offensive," said Governor Scott Walker, signing a bill that makes it less easy to require schools to change mascots and team names.
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51 comments:
The value of tolerance has been in a slump, lately. The profusion of "zero-tolerance" policies in many areas is a emblem of that decline.
Perhaps we should make efforts to extol and celebrate tolerance more loudly and more frequently.
Free speech is for conservatives, silly
Grab the moral high ground, then you can be offended all you want
This "Walker" person seems to be saying some pretty offensive stuff.
Can't someone just fire him?
Signed - Nancy Dubuc.
How many unions decertified by votes of their formerly-coerced 'members'?
It's a wonder that Scott Walker has given people more freedom to act on their own respective accords!
But seriously...
School boards hire and fire school district superintendents, who are directly responsible to their boards, I'm assuming. So what Gov. Walker is doing is removing this issue from each district's discretion.
Is this kind of meddling proper? Republicans as a matter of principle ought to favor devolving government to as much local control as possible. But here we have Walker snatching back this narrow issue for state control. It doesn't sound right.
"A person or persons’ right to speak does not end just because what they say or how they say it is offensive," said the governor who blacklisted-- with zeal!-- those who signed a petition for his recall.
The old system was that essentially if one person bitched, it went to the state superintendent. Hardly local control
So he's centralizing the district's power to the state. So how is that consistent with the principal of small government?
Inga, it's not. But as Tosa Guy pointed out, the present system also puts the result in the hands of the state, and the people at the state superintendent's office have shown that they cave nearly every time, other out of agreement or fear. The new system simply tries to assure that there is some level of popular support for the decision.
It could be put to a local referendum. I'm not sure you would like that result. Nor would most taxpayers like to endure the costs of the countless referenda that would ensue.
Seems like a nice middle ground to me.
David:
Centralizing means exactly what Inga wants them to mean when she says them. Your patriarchal usage of dictionary definitions is oppressive. Hater!
/sarc
So today Althouse has talked about the government restricting what private individuals can say, private entities restricting (by punishment) what individuals can say. Now we are on to how individuals (or interest groups) can manipulate the speech of the government. Walker should post here rather than make speeches.
Arvina Martin, chair of the Democratic Party of Wisconsin American Indian Caucus, said in a statement she was saddened by Walker’s decision. She also said the governor failed to realize the first amendment does not allow public programs to “offend, harm or otherwise discriminate against citizens.”
Is she really this stupid ir just insane?
State Superintendent Tony Evers called the new law a “disservice” to children in Wisconsin, according to a statement. Evers added there is a growing body of research that illustrates negative educational outcomes associated with Native American mascots and symbols.
Do they really think we are that stupid?
Commies used to love free speech. They cited all the high minded principles most vehemently when the question was precisely whether to suppress offensive speech. Now, not so much. It would be interesting to see how rapidly they could rediscover those old principles if they once again found the need.
People pretty much make me want to never stop puking with this kind of camel swallowing / gnat straining bullshit.
All speech is offensive to some, especially to those who are not allowed to be offended.
Can California borrow your governor?
Aha. I see AA already said about the same thing. Lead on, Ann.
garage mahal said...
"Free speech is for conservatives, silly."
Nice pictures. Unfortunately they do not show what happened to lead to their arrest, so I don't know what to make of them. Were the people in the pictures arrested for nothing more than making statements which offended other people?
Were the people in the pictures arrested for nothing more than making statements which offended other people?
They were arrested for singing and gathering in the Rotunda.
I sense a society coming apart at the seams. Obama is leading us to idiocracy.
garage mahal said...
"They were arrested for singing and gathering in the Rotunda."
Since I wasn't there I'll have to take your word that all they were doing was singing in the Rotunda. Seems strange. Were they singing Christmas Carols about Jesus?
Any time the majority is restrained in its ability to suppress the voice of even one extremely obnoxious and smelly man, a blow is struck for liberty.
This is the proper role of government, to shackle the mob, make it harder to lynch individuals.
This relates to the greatest lie of leftism, which is that democracy is the root of liberty. Nothing could be further from the truth, as anyone who's survived a cult or nasty little small town or inbred company could tell you. The more "socially conscious" of what the majority wants you are, or must be, the less free you are.
Telling the majority to go to hell, and I'll paint my house bright pink, take a job editing porn or flacking for Geraldo, not wear a helmet while motorcycling even though I have young kids, shoot guns on my property without checking to see that the wife is in the house, rear my children to prate nonsense about going to Hell if you're gay or that black people are lazy -- that's liberty. Liberty only feels good if you're a misfit. (It can be identified as good by its long-term consequences, of course, or some insightful what-ifing, but that's intellectual reflection -- what the head ponders. To the heart liberty only appeals when you are directly conscious of being out of step with society's drummer, and you want it that way.)
You know you've got liberty in the land if you grit your teeth at something somebody else is doing, and say there oughta be a law and most other people agree with you, but shrug their shoulders and say yes, but I guess there's not much we can do. Liberty is annoying if you're in the majority. That's how you can identify it.
garage mahal said...
Free speech is for conservatives, silly
12/20/13, 6:10 PM
"Now we see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"
garage mahal said...
Free speech is for conservatives, silly
12/20/13, 6:10 PM
"Now we see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"
Do not engage GarageMahal.
His ears ring with cognitive dissonance.
Were they singing Christmas Carols about Jesus?
These are pro worker, anti-Walker songs. They meet everyday at noon for an hour, either inside the Rotunda or out on the lawn. They're pretty good too.
garage mahal said...
"They're pretty good too."
Not bad at all. Were they arrested for singing on the lawn?
No, only in the Rotunda.
garage mahal said...
"No, only in the Rotunda."
Is it possible they were arrested because of where they were singing rather than for what they were singing?
Carl,
That's a great rant! There's a lot of truth lurking inside it.
Thanks!
My school's mascot was a Welsh dragon, and our intramural teams were named after the Houses of York and Lancaster. In Connecticut we had lots of towns and rivers and hills with Indian names, but no visible Indians until the law was passed that allowed Indians to operate casinos.
So I may not have the relevant experience to opine on this issue. But, still . . . . Personally, I try as hard as I reasonably can not to offend other people unnecessarily. However, I have observed that being offended is sometimes used as a sword not just a shield. So even in private life, but particularly in the life of a community, a bare claim of offense should not be enough to deprive others of their culture -- and calling your high school team the Gitche Gumees can be part of your culture.
"...where does it stop?"
Scott Walker is not in any way a paragon of free-speech support. And this new law doesn't have jack-squat to do with free speech: instead, it just relocates a discretionary task out of local hands and into the purview of centralized state authority.
His concern for "free speech" is a red herring. Besides, the issue of mascot names is far down on the scale of importance of free expression issues. Much more important is whether a citizen can express himself or herself about who they prefer as governor without subsequently being blacklisted.
Still, the answer to Scott Walker's question, if taken at face value, can be seen here in this piece from Denmark. Racism laws. The ranking of identity groups according to their don't-you-dare-offend-them-ness. A bye pass for politicians. Subservience of national free speech codes to "international" decrees. All in a country that actually has a strong tradition of, and relatively strong protections for, free expression of ideas.
Might you be "convinced that Muslim men around the world rape, abuse and kill their daughters"?
Sometimes it seems that the legal systems of other countries are really strange. We could fall in line with the rest of the world someday. That would be bad, but Scott Walker hasn't, and won't, do anything at all to prevent that. He's just a showman governor. Does he have a reality TV show yet?
Bill, Republic of Texas said,"'Evers added there is a growing body of research that illustrates negative educational outcomes associated with Native American mascots and symbols.'
Do they really think we are that stupid?"
Anyone asking that question should remember that 50% of people possess below-median intelligence.
I thought the idea that offensive speech was the kind that needed protection.
Anyone remember the American Nazi march in Illinois in the 80s?
"garage mahal said...
They were arrested for singing and gathering in the Rotunda."
As usual a lie. They were arrested because they refused to file for a permit. Had they filed, it would have been granted, and no arrests.
This is par for the course with garage.
Hey garage, you could put to rest your insinuations that Walker was kicked out of Marquette, and lame lies that "proved" he was. He has given Marquette permission ansd they have confirmed that he was in good standing every semester he attended, both in GPA and behavior, and left of his own volition.
Tired a bit with this intolerance.
Just drove across probably largest Indian res in the lower 48, and the school mascots are not tigers and lions. Got stuck behind a bus for the Warriors' complete with a picture of a headdress, for a tribe that probably doesn't wear that type of headdresses (but did help us win WWII).
I'll believe that there's an actual rallying cry for the concept of "tolerance" as against "intolerance" the day that such words as "moderation" and "compromise" are no longer automatically considered filthy in all applications and contexts by staunch ideologues, and not one second before the evening of that day.
I don't actually expect that to happen in my lifetime. Stuff cycles, and sometimes stuff takes a long time to cycle (due to all the stuff that cycled before in a proximate era, sometimes two).
Bruce Hayden, I hope you'll be around then, or at least some folks like you.
Frankly I think that the bill signed by Walker makes some sense on its face. Before a school superintendent pulls the trigger on something in response to a single individual's cry of "outrage", he's
got to have more than just that one single complaint .
I live in a Los Angeles suburb where our K-12 school district has some 30,000 plus students. There are more than 70 different languages spoken by at least 25 students in the district . That's a lot of different cultures and opportunities for "offense".
Assuming two parents for each student, I'd say that sixty thousand complaining cooks can spoil the broth if each one of the cooks can control the cooking.
This is par for the course with garage.
More on par for the lies and fauxrage of the left. The GLADD reactions to Phil demonstrates either very poor reading comprehension or lying. Where is the hope or utility of a movement that depends on lies? What does it say about these folks and their movement that it is based on the need to lie and manipulate?
They are acting like addicts committed to manipulation and control.
Trey
In the People's Pure Democracy, there must be one vote for every Citizen. Each Citizen shall not offend, through words or deed, any other Citizen, Potential Citizen, Alien, Resident Alien, Tourist, Fictional Character, Animal, and/or Non-Citizen.
Each Citizen Shall be Equal. Equality shall be realized through Diversity and Tolerance. The People's Schools and Hospitals shall so be guided by Equality, Diversity and Tolerance. The People shall find Protesting, Chanting, Super-Fast Choo-Choo Trains and Community Gardening proper exercises to achieve Equality, Diversity and Tolerance.
The People shall be united by Laws, which flow from Equality, Diversity and Tolerance, and are overseen by those most knowledgable in the texts of Equality, Diversity and Tolerance.
Each Overseer shall be elected in bi-annual elections, and shall work with each Citizen Scientist, Artist, And Engineer to Ensure the Security Of The People's Pure Democracy
...and achieve Equality, Diversity and Tolerance.
garbage doesn't post photos during the occupation phase when the ugliness began. photos of damages due to breaking doors and windows, the union marchers with their Hitler signs, the screaming and vuvuzelas drowning out opposing speech. That's what thuggery looks like
As usual a lie. They were arrested because they refused to file for a permit. Had they filed, it would have been granted, and no arrests.
Permits were never needed for a hundred years, and they aren't needed now. They aren't arresting people anymore. You'd have to be out of your mind to apply for a permit with these assholes. $750,000 dollar damage to the Capitol from the DOA? Remember that howler?
Fahrenheit 459. AS PC correctnise elIminated one word after another soon there would be no books.
"These are pro worker, anti-Walker songs. "
Forcing people to join unions is anti-worker.
Garage, if I need a kid ends a government license o set up a lemonade stand, why not the licenses for the anti-worker pro-union fruitcakes if they want to make loud noises?
At what point does occupying a public space infringe on the right of others wanting or having to use that space?
"garage mahal said...
Permits were never needed for a hundred years, and they aren't needed now. They aren't arresting people anymore. You'd have to be out of your mind to apply for a permit with these assholes. $750,000 dollar damage to the Capitol from the DOA? Remember that howler?"
Nonetheless, they were not arrested because they were singing anti-Walker songs as you falsely stated.
Nonetheless, they were not arrested because they were singing anti-Walker songs as you falsely stated.
Which he will falsely state whenever the subject is raised here in the future.
> $750,000 dollar damage to the Capitol from the DOA? Remember that howler?
Garage concedes that damage was done; he's more upset about the vandals being overcharged than about the vandals.
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