Yesterday at about 1:30 p.m., Alexian Lien, 33, was driving a Range Rover north on the West Side Highway near 125th Street with his wife and 5-month old daughter as passengers, according to reports in the Post and Daily News. About 20 seconds into the video, group of motorcycle and dirt bike riders surround the SUV in the center lane, and a motorbike rider appears to hit the brakes and get into a fender-bender with Lien’s vehicle.You've seen the video. (Or if not, check it out.) We watched it here at Meadhouse this morning — my son Chris along with Meade and me — and we had some different interpretations of what we saw. I'm linking to StreetsBlog, above, but there are obviously more mainstream articles (like this in the NYT). My choice of link is based on my desire to get some perspective on what these bikers are doing. (I thought they had an intent to rob the guy in the expensive car, and they deliberately cut him off, and Meade saw it as bikers out for a big group ride who felt righteous and lost their minds to road rage after what was an accident.)
There are 77 comments at StreetsBlog, which seems to be a bicycle-oriented site where people are concerned about sharing the road. I'll cherry-pick some comments. Each paragraph break is a new commenter:
I don't know what happened before the video, but based only on what I see here, the driver is acting in self defense. He is surrounded, and the initial crash was obviously deliberately caused by the guy on the motorcycle. Additionally, the guys family is in the car. At that point, its either himself and his family or them, and the only weapon he has is that car. Also, as a side note: This has nothing to do with "street culture." Its an absolutely extreme situation that's way past the point where traffic laws or driving behavior are the issue.There's a lot to talk about here, but one thing is damage to the mayoral candidacy of the left-wing Democrat Bill de Blasio.
This has everything to do with NYC's street culture. It's a culture that's enabled by the NYPD, which focuses on tinted windows and nuisance tickets against cyclists, but sees hundreds of motorcycles on the HH parkway as the equivalent of a storm cloud - something that could be dangerous but that hopefully will pass. EVents like this are extreme, but they are the inevitable outcome of NYC's "anything goes" attitude toward street safety.
It's more like the outcome of the "if you chase them and any body gets hit in the process all fingers will be pointed at you" mentality. Most of these guys are simply going to run from the cops, and any attempt to chase them will involve risk to all the parties involved as well as innocent bystanders. It's a lose/lose situation for the NYPD.
There is plenty wrong with NYC street culture, but this video does not "encapsulate" it. There is nothing typical about this scene. The motorcyclists represent thug culture more than street culture, and this guy just happened to get caught in the middle of it and was probably scared shitless, and rightfully so. I saw an incarnation of this group riding through Brooklyn yesterday, and you wouldn't want to get into a situation with any two of these riders let alone two hundred.
First, there seems to be at least 50 motorcyclists in some of these shots. So, I ask, have they gotten a parade permit that is required of cyclists and pedestrians? Secondly. I saw a comment in another string on a website that reports that the NYPD has a do not engage policy when it comes to these throngs of motorcyclists. Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but if it is true, then why is there such a double standard when it comes to bikes? Finally, while riding I have been surrounded by around a dozen or so of these hot shots from time to time. It can be pretty scary when they are doing wheelies near you and gunning their bikes.
This video encapsulates everything wrong with NYPD's traffic enforcement culture. I've been there more than once as these illegal parades of thugs on unregistered and unlicensed dirt bikes swarm the streets, both on foot and in a car, and it is scary as hell either way. Other commenters are right. Given NYPD's lack of enforcement, best thing to do is to come to a complete stop and let them pass. Even so, many of them intentionally come dangerously close to cars, bicycles, and pedestrians in their path, running red lights and failing to yield all along the way.
I was on the Hudson River Greenway when these guys passed Canal Street. There had to be at least 200 of them. I've never seen so many motorbikes (and Quads too?) in my life. I was on the phone with my fiance and I was like wow . . . that's got to be so intimidating to be on the road with those guys. And then I sit back and laugh and think about the police presence we have at Critical Mass rides.
It certainly looked like they crowded him out of his lane and the the brake-checking started when he beeped. If theres anything before the video, obviously this interpretation would change.
Fool (driver) should have slowed down. Not saying the bikers were right, but come on, how dumb can you be. Situation could have been avoided.
Why was this driver targeted? These bikers don't target random people. The most important part is missing. The vehicle was surrounded in the very beginning of the video. Something must have occurred prior.
HE WAS A WEALTHY ASIAN MAN... 1%er! Hopefully Asians realize that no matter how much money they have and how insulated they believe themselves due to their wealth, they can be pulled from their cars and nearly murdered while the NYPD issues parking tickets. Just a taste of the de Blasio first term!
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66 comments:
It's strange how only the last commenter you posted mentioned racism against the SUV driver as a possible cause of the attack.
When I saw the photo of the SUV driver & his family, I knew why the gang targeted him.
My primary complaint is that the SUV driver didn't run over the whole lot of them. Sounds nasty? Yeah, well, it is, but historically speaking communities were held together by a lot more vigilante justice than we care to remember. We read about it in the history books when it goes wrong, and some poor black guy in the wrong place at the wrong time got lynched. We don't read about it when everyone in town got fed up with some bullying rotter and decided to put him out of their misery, but the latter was more common than the former.
If the SUV were actually being used as a "weapon" then the bikers would have fared much, much worse. The driver's only mistake here was stopping before he'd run over enough of them.
Hmm.
Obviously Escape From New York was a suggestion, not a cheesy dystopia.
Cut the bridges and air-drop food.
The playlist of videos. I believe some have been deleted. (As if that's going to make them disappear from the internet.)
I don't understand why people upload videos that seem to provide evidence against them.
The people swarmed 7th Avenue and Times Sq too. Going through Red Lights and behaving like hooligans.
On the highway they take over. It's like being surrounded by a swarm of killer bees. Deafening, coming at all directions and totally distracting.
I don't know how anyone would defend the motor bikers.
His best move -- if only he'd realized it -- was -- as one of the commenters I've quoted says -- to stop (or slow way down) and let this giant swarm of bikers have the road to themselves. That was what they were signaling they wanted, and he was vastly outnumbered (though the car and his law-abidingness may have made him feel protected).
The bikers increased their signaling by cutting in front of him, to say (through action) that he needs to hold back and give them the road, and the cut took a really extreme form, essentially yelling: give us this road.
He wasn't prepared. He didn't comply quickly, and he accidentally hit a guy, and all hell broke lose.
He was like the guy in an armed robbery who doesn't comply quickly enough.
They were not prepared either. They thought they could get their message across and he'd do what they assumed was the obvious, sane thing and give them the road, just like armed robbers assume you'll hand over your money.
They don't really have a good Plan B for resisters. When their bluff is called, they exert the violence they only wanted to threaten. The target had no good Plan B either, so he's got to use whatever self-defense he's got. This guy at least realized his car was a weapon, and the bikers (who didn't have real weapons, only extreme numbers) didn't want to let him win.
Professor Althouse has it right. They were trying to get the road ahead so that individual riders could safely perform their dangerous wheelies and other stunts without having a bunch of cars around. The guy driving the SUV was an oriental and as everyone everywhere knows orientals are crappy drivers. The bikers, who were black, are excellent riders and were infuriated, rightly, at the oriental who just. Did. Not. Get. It. We have gangs of black motorcyclists here in Atlanta and they are awesome fast and very skilled.
One bane of NYC is SUV drivers using their SUV as a weapon? Sounds like a lot of hyperbole to me.
I can't believe he stopped his vehicle. Run the damn light and drive to a police station.
There will be plenty of people commenting on the victim, the "NYC Street Culture", cars vs. motorcycles, thuggery, etc., so I don't feel the need to add to that. I'd just be redundant anyway since I'm as shocked and offended as everyone else. Instead, here are a couple of links to an Indianapolis street celebration of motorcycles that had no crime, thuggery, or victimization that I'm aware of - "Motorcycles on Meridian":
http://goodsparkgarage.com/2013-motorcycles-on-meridian-indianapolis-friday/
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Avis=BG&Dato=20130818&Kategori=THINGSTODO&Lopenr=308180802&Ref=PH
Why post this? Nothing more than balancing out the bad with some good. Yes, everyone here understands that what happened in New York is not representative of motorcycle enthusiasts, but still... sometimes it's just good to apply the balance anyway. Not all riders are thugs - not even close - and not all gathering of motorcyclists are scary, and while we all know that intellectually, it just plain feels good to have the images in front of us.
"His best move -- if only he'd realized it -- was -- as one of the commenters I've quoted says -- to stop (or slow way down) and let this giant swarm of bikers have the road to themselves."
This is what I saw, too, though don't know if I could have reacted that way. Sitting tight and letting them think they got their way or get bored with you, is often the better move. It takes a lot of discipline. Panic can easily override that.
That's exactly right Ann.
I can't imagine having my 5 month old in the car during that.
My first impression was that this was a deliberately incited incident that went farther (further?) than the bikers intended. Funny how the camera, on the move, caught the collision but little else. Are there other videos?
Ann Althouse "His best move...was to stop (or slow way down) and let this giant swarm of bikers have the road to themselves."
And so, as good citizens retreat, the thugs take over more public spaces.
I know those arent your words Ann, but the reference to dirt bikers in the blog post you link couldnt be more wrong. These arent dirt bikes or dirt bikers. There are one or two supermoto or dual sport bikes that resemble dirt bikes they are using on the street...otherwise these are all sport bikes (i.e. street bikes).
I have been a dirt biker for 40 years out here in Colorado and the dirt bike community is very conservative and doesnt appreciate these urban thug riders nor them giving motorcyclists a bad name.
The SUV appears to have done nothing wrong. If I am him with wife and child in the vehicle and being followed/attacked, I would first try to drive to nearest police or fire station or if I cant do that, I am using my vehicle as a weapon and taking out as many bikes and riders as it takes to stop the attack. They are lucky this man showed restraint. A lot of us wouldnt have shown the same. I can tell you the dirt biker community wouldnt think twice about driving over these bikes and riders if threatened and would feel justified doing so. There is no allegiance to other riders especially if they are not following the rules of the road
The bikers increased their signaling by cutting in front of him, to say (through action) that he needs to hold back and give them the road, and the cut took a really extreme form, essentially yelling: give us this road.
He wasn't prepared. He didn't comply quickly, and he accidentally hit a guy, and all hell broke lose.
The motorcyclist *deliberately* braked, which makes him at fault for the accident.
Chalk me up as someone who thinks the SUV driver should have hit more motorcyclists after they attacked. The more dead, the better.
If bikers try that in Texas they might find themselves in a shooting war.
Texas ain't Bloomburg Country and when a mob of people try to attack someone there can be gunfire.
Yes the gunfire might go both ways but it sure will go and some people on both sides will be lying in the streets.
Those bikers knew the people in the SUV would most likely not be armed.
It ain't way in Texas.
"They don't really have a good Plan B for resisters. When their bluff is called, they exert the violence they only wanted to threaten."
Why do you say that they do not want to commit violence and it is only an unwanted Plan B? What evidence leads you to think that thugs commit thuggery only with reluctance?
No real weapons? Did the bikers slash the tires and the victims face with their fingernails?
I recently left NYC after 17 years. I was unaware that aggressive dirt bikers were one of the banes of the street. Actually, post-Guilani, the streets of New York have no banes, except, perhaps, jaw dropping bridge and tunnel tolls.
Hyperbole. An extreme (and extremely rare) event dressed up in an attempt to give it greater significance.
You're being way to sympathetic towards the bikers, Mrs. Meade. What's up with that?
Re: Blogger tim maguire said...
I recently left NYC after 17 years. I was unaware that aggressive dirt bikers were one of the banes of the street. Actually, post-Guilani, the streets of New York have no banes, except, perhaps, jaw dropping bridge and tunnel tolls.
-----
Have you never been north of 110th street in Manhattan, Tim? Or to Brooklyn?
Sorry Althouse, I'm just not seeing the initial infraction on the video (perhaps you could link to the min/sec frame?).
What I see is the bikers forcing the man to stop for no apparent reason and only then contact occurs. Until some sort of video emerges which explains why the the man and his family were forced to stop, I'll continue to refer to them as envirothugs. And why not? When facts are not in evidence, we must reasonably presume.
"Sorry Althouse, I'm just not seeing the initial infraction on the video (perhaps you could link to the min/sec frame?)."
What "initial infraction" are you talking about and why are you apologizing to me as if I pointed at something?
Go over my statements more closely. You're not tracking me.
He was law-abiding and swarmed by people who were demanding that he cede the road.
I know I can be accused of "blaming the victim." I'm just saying how there are better choices of how to defend yourself from victimhood.
I realize I'm like the cop telling a young woman not to walk alone drunk in a short skirt in the wrong part of town late at night.
Go over my statements more closely. You're not tracking me.
Since no arrests were made, we can assume that no laws were broken. The SUV driver's actions appear entirely justified and he has my sympathy.
He was law-abiding and swarmed by people who were demanding that he cede the road.
This the root cause of the incident. The biker's initial actions were not justified by facts in evidence. There is no civil reason for the driver to have acceded to that unreasonable demand.
"A rape of decency! A parody of pleasure!"
My only question: is Althouse Meade's "old lady" or is she a "momma" to all the commenters?
"Blogger Ann Althouse said...
He was law-abiding and swarmed by people who were demanding that he cede the road.
I know I can be accused of "blaming the victim." I'm just saying how there are better choices of how to defend yourself from victimhood.
I realize I'm like the cop telling a young woman not to walk alone drunk in a short skirt in the wrong part of town late at night."
NO.
It's as if you're telling a woman who is sober, dressed in business attire, not to walk in the right part of town in the middle of the day.
Lien was driving on the West Side Highway in the middle of the day. There's no indication he broke any traffic laws. There's no indication he did anything.
Meade saw it as bikers out for a big group ride who felt righteous and lost their minds to road rage after what was an accident.)
This analysis conveniently omits the reason why the bikers singled out the SUV driver before the "accident."
We need to know why the motorbike riders initially swarmed the moving driver in order to prevent or at least understand such incidences in the future. I'm betting it's unsolved rage at SUVs in general, however facts otherwise could change that opinion.
"I realize I'm like the cop telling a young woman not to walk alone drunk in a short skirt in the wrong part of town late at night."
No, you're more like the Imam saying that any woman who doesn't wear a burka is a whore and deserves to be raped.
I'm just saying how there are better choices of how to defend yourself from victimhood.
I realize I'm picking at nits here, but he absolutely didn't have a choice as to whether or not to be a victim. No, he was going to be a victim, regardless. What you're really saying is that he had a choice as to what kind of victim to be.
AA: "I realize I'm like the cop telling a young woman not to walk alone drunk in a short skirt in the wrong part of town late at night."
Nonsense.
Telling a young woman not to walk alone drunk in a short skirt in the wrong part of town late at night reeks of patriarchy, misogyny, white privilege, racism, and about a dozen other "thought crimes", thus rendering that kind of a thought to be well beyond the bounds of "normal" and "sane" responses to potential danger.
However, telling some Asian guy to back off and cede "stuff" to thugs is not just acceptable, it is required of those of us who have been sufficiently "enlightened".
Not even close to being comparable.
I would not have known that they wanted me to cede the road. I'd have thought they were forcing me to stop to attack me. I imagine that's what the driver thought too.
I'm saying he should have slowed way down before any collision occurred. That's the mental note I'm making in case I'm ever in that situation. They want the road, you are outnumbered. Let them all pass and don't antagonize them.
They caused the collision by cutting him off like that, but if he'd been more situationally aware, he'd have already slowed down or stopped and wouldn't have hit the guy.
He didn't realize that was the best choice at the time, but it's definitely what I will do in that situation.
Whether I'd have known to do that before seeing all this, I don't know.
"I would not have known that they wanted me to cede the road. I'd have thought they were forcing me to stop to attack me. I imagine that's what the driver thought too."
Yes, that is what I thought on watching the video, that it was a robbery method, like when a car rams you from behind as a way to get you to stop.
I still don't know, but I believe this was just a gigantic group of riders out to claim dominance of the road and they targeted this guy because he didn't see that.
I think the police need to control mobs like this. One guy can't fight a mob!
I think the police need to control mobs like this. One guy can't fight a mob!
If women don't have the freedom "to walk alone drunk in a short skirt in the wrong part of town late at night," then the patriarchy has won.
AA, Perhaps you're right about the "clear" signaling the bikers intended. But equally clearly there is no ruling out that they intended to mug or otherwise harm the SUV driver and his family. So neither you nor I have any reason to suppose that slowing/stopping would be an effective avoidance tactic for the SUV driver. For all we know, that is exactly what the bikers wanted if the bikers intended to attack or otherwise harm the SUV driver and his family. I therefore resist your characterization of the SUV driver as overreacting. You were not there in that vehicle. Neither was I.
@El Pollo Raylan -
According to Jonathan Turley's blog (http://jonathanturley.org/2013/10/01/new-york-police-make-first-arrest-in-biker-attack-on-family/), at least one arrest has been made, and another biker turned himself in. The first has been charged with reckless endangerment, menacing, reckless driving and acting in a manner injurious to a child less than 17, but I don't see any details on charges for the second.
Thus far, the driver's not being charged. Turley details how ugly the civil litigation could get, and it's worth a read.
NY'ers need to contact me and get my little street sweeper. I can't cook meth anymore, but breaking Bloomberg's laws is just as good. A nice dose of M240 medicine will cure these thugs of whatever it is that ails them. It also saves them from killing themselves on their motorcycles when they go a little too far....
Tibore,
Yes, yes, yes. There are "good" bikers to offset the bad, but I call bullshit on your comment. My experience with bikers on the roads and streets whether alone or in groups is far more often negative than positive. If alone, the SOP seems to be to open the throttle full bore at every opportunity, 25mph residential street or not. If in groups the SOP seems to be that you ride in such a monolithic mass that other vehicles can't change lanes to get to their exit, or otherwise get around you. And don't get me started on passing by riding the mid-stripe between cars when the lefthand lane is not moving to their liking. But by all means. share the road. Be aware. Motorcycles are everywhere. (Like we have a chance to ignore them)
In a local PARADE for Christ's sake earlier this year a biker would hang back then gun his engine and pop a wheelee only coming down when he was about to rear-end my wife's exchange student's organization's float. A float that had people WALKING around it.
So post your well-behaved bikers link for all I care. As the saying goes, who should I believe - your link or my lying eyes?
P.S. - Get off my lawn (wink).
Althouse is pretty correct in that most people, at least in California, know to give a biker gang on the highway some room. It's one of those "things" people seem to instinctively get.
For some reason, perhaps related to drivers like Alexis sticking in the passing lane on a highway at 60 mph?? The video shows them passing the SUV , then the SUV coming up and driving into the middle of the pack. Something American drivers with commonsense do not do, regardless of their "perfectly legal right to do so".
AA, As someone else pointed out above, the police CAN'T control this, and the biker mobs know it. Repeat, they know this. That's why they are so brazen.
As soon as the police show up, they scatter as only high velocity small profile vehicles can. The police in their crown victoria's are toast.
I was amused that your headline characterized this as "NYC culture" in typical arrogant east coast fashion. We have these mobs in Kansas City. They closed down Interstate 70 to normal traffic to do their stunts. One of them got killed. So they closed down I70 again to commemorate his death by what - performing more death inviting stunts.
The police showed both times to break it up. Both times the mob scattered. No one was caught. No one was arrested, much less charged.
So tell me - who is winning here?
The only thing worse than being surrounded by bikers is having to read a dozen comments by internet toughguys who brag of thinking nothing while they run over dozens of people. Get real.
The guy did what he had to do to get his car out of a bad situation. Him not being charged will likely give the bikers pause next time they try a stunt like that.
I don't plan to live anywhere that won't let me defend myself but it's silly to act all tough on the internet. Anyone can be a tough guy with a keyboard.
Lord Ben, you have to give people some latitude to vent. Wake me when a gang of Asian businessmen beat up a New York street negro because he won't genuflect when they pass him.
Let's cut the crap and talk about the skin color and national origin of the people involved.
You know what I mean.
C4,
You always have an opinion, no matter how ignorant it may be.
I'm so glad you knew exactly how fast everyone was going or that you knew the SUV drove into the group rather than the group drove around and surrounded him before slowing down to cut him off.
As to how you know what everyone should do in this situation, I'm afraid your knowledge of motorcycle gangs may need some updating from the Marlon Brando era.
Watching some of these videos...parts of it are like a clown or shriner's parade thru the big city. Especially funny is the guy on a off-road quad ATV, WTF?
Talk about out of place! These riders belong on the Cheese Country Trail in Darlington, not NYC!
What a circus, riding dirt bikes on the sidewalks even, crazy.
One man with an SUV is a majority.
Damned Patriarchs wanting women to not be raped.
"Wilding" on two wheels. It has little to do with the vehicles, a lot to do with the growing thug sub-culture that transcends ethnic and socioeconomic boundaries.
Grand Theft Auto 5 is a good example where this crap comes from, we are letting it happen.
Two comments. How many people still remember "Road Warrior?" Here it is come to life.
Second, about Texas. A cardiologist friend of mine was once forced off the road by a biker who than aggressively suggested they take the off ramp and fight it out. My friend pulled off and, when the biker pulled up and got off his bike, put a couple of .357 rounds through his engine and drove off.
There are long walks in Texas.
I do a lot of driving in and around New York City, including Washington Heights, where I lived for several years. (Columbia U's medical campus is a couple of blocks from where the driver was beaten.) Anecdotally, this type of lawlessness has been increasing quite dramatically over the last few years. I've seen the West Side Highway and Henry Hudson Parkway, especially north of 96th Street, get blocked off in broad daylight by these guys so they can race and do incredibly dangerous tricks. If you happen to be caught in the middle of it, it can be incredibly frightening.
It also happens a lot in Connecticut, especially around Hartford and Bridgeport. On those few occasions that I've bothered to call the police, the response has been a resigned sigh and a "Thanks for the report."
PS. As another poster pointed out, while some of these bikes are fairly powerful motocross-style "dirt bikes," others are extremely powerful racing bikes that can approach or even surpass 200 mph. These are not the glorified scooters that many of us used to ride through the woods when we were kids.
I do a lot of driving in and around New York City, including Washington Heights, where I lived for several years. (Columbia U's medical campus is a couple of blocks from where the driver was beaten.) Anecdotally, this type of lawlessness has been increasing quite dramatically over the last few years. I've seen the West Side Highway and Henry Hudson Parkway, especially north of 96th Street, get blocked off in broad daylight by these guys so they can race and do incredibly dangerous tricks. If you happen to be caught in the middle of it, it can be incredibly frightening.
It also happens a lot in Connecticut, especially around Hartford and Bridgeport. On those few occasions that I've bothered to call the police, the response has been a resigned sigh and a "Thanks for the report."
PS. As another poster pointed out, while some of these bikes are fairly powerful motocross-style "dirt bikes," others are extremely powerful racing bikes that can approach or even surpass 200 mph. These are not the glorified scooters that many of us used to ride through the woods when we were kids.
Sebastian, i lived in Brooklyn for about 10 of those years. The last 7 in Red Hook, about 2 blocks from the clubhouse of some motor cycle gang. I never bothered to find out which--they were never any trouble.
I'm afraid you're not going to get me to admit that, well heck, maybe these bike gangs really are a problem and i just didn't know about it. They aren't.
It's the perfect storm: DWA meets DWB. Would be LOL except they tried to kill him.
I live in Atlanta and have seen similar gangs of riders on the perimeter highway here, on the weekends. It is terrifying to get caught in the middle of one of these groups. And the groups I've seen are much smaller than the one seen on this video. I can't imagine getting caught in one where there are stoplights.
This guy did nothing wrong. He might have panicked, but if you've never been in the middle of a group like this you can't know how you will react. Especially with your most precious family in the car.
It's this kind of lawlessness that makes me afraid for the future of NYC. I am sorry for them. We are seeing glimpses of it here in Atlanta and someone has to stop it. (Me? I think twice before going around I-285 on the weekends.)
And, like someone else said, they most certainly had weapons if they were able to slash the tires on that Range Rover.
" There are "good" bikers to offset the bad, but I call bullshit on your comment. My experience with bikers on the roads and streets whether alone or in groups is far more often negative than positive."
You're calling bullshit on a statement that there are both good and bad bikers? Whatever, man. Rant away.
I once encountered a small group (10-15) on I-66 eastbound into DC. they rider high-powered cycle, they weave in and out of traffic. Traffic that is doing 70-80 mph. they ride between the lanes, they do wheelies and more.
what no one has mentioned is that the large majority of the riders appear to be black. if it is okay to mention the ethnicity of the SUV driver then why not the bikers?
If someone rolls up in front of me and brakes hard to stop me (with a group of his biker boyz around me) I'm going to assume I'm getting jacked. Maybe it's a California thing.
At that point, game on.
Tibore,
If like me, your "experience with bikers on the roads and streets whether alone or in groups is far more often negative than positive" then I was wrong to have called bullshit on your comment.
My apologies.
Me, I got a carry permit and a 9mm with an extra clip in the car. So the first 30 or so are gonna get shot. After that, well, I expect to die, but I expect the NEXT gang will moderate their behavior, just in case my brother happens to be driving that road.
He should have pushed the 4 wheel drive button and gunned it once it obviously became a riot attack. Self defense was clear.
Ann is a fairly liberal women, and so she doesn't grasp moral absolutes. Her view, like most Obama-voting women is to avoid blaming the true bad actor (judgement), but instead blame others for not compromising.
I would guess that, had the driver braked enough to avoid the rider ahead of him, he would have been "accidentally" rear ended by the rider behind him. That would be my thought if I were hemmed in like that.
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