Althouse: "I had decided that I would go to my grave never telling anyone what I had done."

July 4, 2013

"I had decided that I would go to my grave never telling anyone what I had done."

"Recently, a friend became pregnant after a one-night stand. Everyone assumes that was an accident, but she confided in me that she had been seeking out sex with the purpose of getting pregnant. I was so relieved to meet someone else who planned an 'accidental' pregnancy that it made me wonder if I should open up about my secret."

From a letter to the advice columnist Prudie. I haven't yet read Prudie's answer. I just want to say that this woman imagines that she's found her counterpart in this other woman, but she hasn't. The letter-writer deceived a man with whom she had a serious relationship, letting him think she was still on contraceptive pills, and she's clung to her secret for many years, including from the man she married. She's kept the old boyfriend and the husband in the dark even as she's involved both of them in the upbringing of the child. That's years of hardcore deceit. This other lady is sleeping around with men she doesn't seem to care much about. And who knows what she told them about birth control? And she was apparently ready to blab about it as soon as the pregnancy happened. She's out and proud. It's way too late to emulate her. She's nothing like you.

Now I've read Prudie's answer. Excerpt: "There’s nothing to be gained by telling your husband and making him uneasy about your essential honesty." Essential honesty? The letter-writer's only indication of honesty (in everything but the central lie of her life) was "I'm mentally stable, and I have a pretty unremarkable suburban life." As if unremarkable suburbanites are honest.

297 comments:

1 – 200 of 297 Newer› Newest»

Eric the Fruit Bat said...: Years ago I met a girl at a club and we hit it off and went back to my place.

In the moment before penetration I disclosed that I have no diseases and that I am fully capable of impregnating a woman. She confirmed that she, too, was undiseased and that she was on the pill.

Then she thanked me for bringing all that up.

She was raised to have good manners, was my surmise.; 7/4/13, 8:47 AM
RAH said...: I read part of the writers story to Prudie and what I take away is that women who are not married or in a settled position feel shame for wanting to become pregnant.

Boh women became [pregnant with out marriage and blamed it on faulty birth control.

Weird that a woman's desire to have child is shameful that they now feel they have to deceive and blame it on faulty birth control?; 7/4/13, 8:48 AM
RAH said...: I read part of the writers story to Prudie and what I take away is that women who are not married or in a settled position feel shame for wanting to become pregnant.

Boh women became [pregnant with out marriage and blamed it on faulty birth control.

Weird that a woman's desire to have child is shameful that they now feel they have to deceive and blame it on faulty birth control?; 7/4/13, 8:48 AM
Nathan Alexander said...: I had an ex-girlfriend.

She was in the Reserves, married. Her husband was also in the military.

In 1989 she was called up to go to Kuwait to fight against Saddam Hussein.

Her husband wanted her to get pregnant so she wouldn't have to go. I can't remember what their domestic situation was, but they weren't living together full time. They had some time together...a few weekends a month? Or he took some leave before returning to his base? Not sure, but the point is that she didn't get pregnant with him, so she decided to sleep with someone else, and her husband had no suspicions when she got pregnant with the other guy.
She later divorced her husband, and he had to pay child support.

She never told the other guy he had a child. She never told her (ex-) husband that he paid 18 years of child support for a child not his.

She justified all her lies and unfaithfulness by the fact that he wanted her to get pregnant in the first place.

We didn't stay together long after she revealed that.; 7/4/13, 8:49 AM
Quaestor said...: birth control... lying... pride... shame

Your tags tell a tale in themselves, like capsule review of Euripides' "Medea".; 7/4/13, 8:49 AM
Chip Ahoy said...: you rip-a dese, you mend-a-dese boom tish.; 7/4/13, 8:53 AM
edutcher said...: "I'm mentally stable, and I have a pretty unremarkable suburban life."

Whether it's honest is up for grabs, but it isn't accurate.; 7/4/13, 8:57 AM
jr565 said...: I'm sure stuff like this happens all the time.
Did the person who had the one night stand demand child support? This could be bad in two ways. One, he doesn't want to be a father, was under the impression that were on the pill and because of the subterfuge he now is on the hook for thousands of dollars.
The other way it could be bad is if she hides it from him and doesn't tell him he's a dad, but he'd be happy to raise a kid.

In both cases, the woman's right to choose extends long past the 9 months the child is in the womb.; 7/4/13, 9:02 AM
Nomennovum said...: Essential honesty

Women are not essentially honest.; 7/4/13, 9:02 AM
Matt Sablan said...: ... Matt's faith in humanity died a little.; 7/4/13, 9:03 AM
bagoh20 said...: Is there anything men do to women in relationships that compares to things like castration, and this lying about the father of their children.

I say this is proof of the superiority of men. We're just better humans, and we vote with our brains.; 7/4/13, 9:04 AM
dreams said...: I read somewhere that blood typing studies have shown that 10% of babies are born to women whose husbands could not be the natural fathers.; 7/4/13, 9:05 AM
ricpic said...: Honesty: the story I tell myself about myself that makes me feel good about me.; 7/4/13, 9:06 AM
jacksonjay said...: WWLD? What Would Lena Do?; 7/4/13, 9:07 AM
chickelit said...: A woman's heart is a deep ocean of secrets
~ Rose Dawson; 7/4/13, 9:08 AM
Matt Sablan said...: "Both you and Ben rose to the occasion and neither of you would express regret that you’re parents to Holly."

-- The woman did not "rise to the occasion." It was her idea; she lied to people and manipulated them to bring the 'occasion' about. There is no reason for Prudie to pretend it was some great thing that after manipulating a man and deceiving him, the woman decided to -- what? Not abuse the child? Not get an abortion? Pray tell, what did the woman do to deserve any praise in this?

"At this late date, however, your coming clean would only cast a shadow over your character."

-- No. She's a pretty terrible person, and, frankly, SHOULD have to face some consequences of people thinking less of her.; 7/4/13, 9:10 AM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: SHOULD have to face some consequences of people thinking less of her.

Such as what, exactly?; 7/4/13, 9:11 AM
Matt Sablan said...: I just read the second letter. Was this "I lie to the men I claim to love" day at Prudie?; 7/4/13, 9:12 AM
Nomennovum said...: There should be a law requiring the testing of every newborn's DNA to determine whether it matches the purported father's DNA.

There will never be such a law.

Most men are too chickenshit or too naïve to demand a DNA test.; 7/4/13, 9:12 AM
Matt Sablan said...: "Such as what, exactly?"

-- That they think less of her. She's been deceiving this guy for over a decade. It's wrong, and he deserves to know what the score is.; 7/4/13, 9:13 AM
Oso Negro said...: The pathologies of men are legislated against. The pathologies of women are celebrated in story and song.; 7/4/13, 9:14 AM
Anonymous said...: I had a friend whose lover saved their used condoms to impregnate herself later. She told him during a fight. He laughed and told her his siwmmers didn't swim anymore since he had had chemo for Hodgkins in his thirties.

Previously I had thought that was an internet-urban-legend kind of story.; 7/4/13, 9:16 AM
bagoh20 said...: We really do hate personal responsibility. We should just eliminate the whole concept. Shit just happens, and we should all share the shit without judging. Like this terrible government we have with all the lies, incompetence, and scandal, and dragging out the longest, slowest recovery in history into a permanent malaise of distrust and paralysis.

It just happened. It's how things are. It's nobody's fault.; 7/4/13, 9:18 AM
jr565 said...: I get the rationale that people who have kids should pay for them. That's the whole rationale of marriage, as traditionally defined. You should be responsible for your actions.

But abortion throws that whole rationale out the window.because it makes only the woman responsible for the choice, but makes the man obligated to be responsible.

If the assumption is you're supposed to raise your kids, why isn't the assumption that you're not supposed to kill it in the womb?

And think about a case where a man wants to be a dad. Sorry, you have no say whatsoever about whether your woman kills your baby.

Then think about the case where a woman gets pregnant through subterfuge, or through a one night stand. Shouldn't the calculation of whether or not she keeps it be predicated on the idea that the guy might want to be a dad, and therefore not be in the babies life? Why then demand child support? Because even then society assumes that men must be responsible.

For a woman's choice.; 7/4/13, 9:20 AM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: The pathologies of women are celebrated in story and song.

Which 'story and song,' exactly, celebrates women deceitfully arranging a conception?; 7/4/13, 9:23 AM
Matt Sablan said...: Everything JR said is simply a good argument for why men should be more selective who they sleep with.; 7/4/13, 9:24 AM
Chip Ahoy said...: I had decided to go to my grave without telling another soul of my deepest darkest most fiercely held secret, my long dragged out wandering desultory tale of pain and suffering with multitudinous tendrils and curlicues, here internet let me start at the beginning.; 7/4/13, 9:25 AM
Kirk Parker said...: Nomen,

"There should be a law requiring the testing of every newborn's DNA to determine whether it matches the purported father's DNA."

At first glance this seems like a completely unwarranted intrusion of the state into private family matters. On the other hand, it would perhaps counteract some of the worst aspects of the sexual revolution, so maybe we should give it a try.; 7/4/13, 9:25 AM
jr565 said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 9:25 AM
jr565 said...: Women choose, and men are responsible for the choice. Sounds totally fair.
If men want to be a father, and the woman doesn't want to be a mother, he can't be a father. If a woman wants to be a mother and he doesn't want to be a father, or doesn't even know he's a dad, he has to be a dad, or at least pay for fathering a kid.

Even if the only reason was because she punched a hole in the condom he was using, or swallowed his semen, kept it in her mouth without him knowing, then impregnated herself with it.; 7/4/13, 9:27 AM
Matt Sablan said...: "I had decided to go to my grave without telling another soul of my deepest darkest most fiercely held secret, my long dragged out wandering desultory tale of pain and suffering with multitudinous tendrils and curlicues, here internet let me start at the beginning."

-- You're one of those sickos who eats peanut butter straight from the jar, like MacGuyver, aren't you?; 7/4/13, 9:27 AM
Oso Negro said...: I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
The pathologies of women are celebrated in story and song.

Which 'story and song,' exactly, celebrates women deceitfully arranging a conception?

We can start with Lot's daughters.; 7/4/13, 9:29 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 9:32 AM
Nomennovum said...: Though he wisely and lovingly immediately took his daughter aside and told her that he was her father, full stop, and that the biology of the thing was totally irrelevant to that fact.

Touching, truly. But how long before the daughter began her search for her real daddy?

I'd say, a month, max. A woman's curiosity and need to know what charismatic man was able to get into the pants of her faithless mother would be impetus enough to justify a betrayal of the selfless love of an old cuckold.; 7/4/13, 9:45 AM
Carlo said...: "I say this is proof of the superiority of men"

or, alternatively(in some women's perception)women's "sociobiological" role - in perpetuating the species - is more complex" - than ours; 7/4/13, 9:48 AM
Saint Croix said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 9:50 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: There was no search. The mother told her husband and daughter who it was immediately, and they called him to break the news. It had happened at the beginning of the marriage when they were off to a rocky start. Things smoothed out later but the deed was done. The mother was horribly ashamed.; 7/4/13, 9:55 AM
YoungHegelian said...: And while we're on the subject of Biblical conception under false pretenses, let's not forget this gem (Gen 38:13-26)

And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep.

And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.

When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it? And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.

And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.
And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not.
Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place.

And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place.
And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.

And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff.
And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

Here endeth the lesson.; 7/4/13, 9:56 AM
jr565 said...: Mathew Sablan wrote:

Everything JR said is simply a good argument for why men should be more selective who they sleep with.

again, its just about the mans responsibility.; 7/4/13, 10:01 AM
jr565 said...: There is a good argument that men should be selective with who they sleep with. But its an argument that doesn't seem to extend to the women.; 7/4/13, 10:04 AM
JAL said...: I would go to my grave never telling anyone what I had done.

Hahahahahhhhaaa.

Like Freeman above. More and more, with normalizing knowing people's blood types, and being able to track DNA for disease and / or criminal reasons, the "take it to my grave" thingey becomes ludicrous.

Anybody out there thinking about the kid?

Naah.; 7/4/13, 10:07 AM
Achilles said...: I have a better story. It is about someone I know. He met this girl at work. She said 3 things. One she wanted a divorce from her husband. Two that he was abusive. And finally third that she was on the pill. 6 months later she is pregnant. 9 months later when we are all at the hospital is the point where we find out she wants my brother to sign his parental rights to the kid away and stay with the husband. At some point She said her husband had had a vasectomy 3 weeks after they got married, and they fought, and she went shopping for sperm. My brother wasn't the only one at that time just the most verile.

Suffice to say she lied a lot over the next 5ish years, got pregnant 2 more times with two different guys and worked to get child support from all three while still being married, and got all sorts of free money from the government.

But it was the third child that is the best part of the story. She starts going to Canada and comes back one time claiming to have been raped. This is an obvious lie because she had a Facebook relationship that was pretty easy to track. The guy was a felon just out of jail on the other side of the border. The good stuff started when the child was about a year old she took all three kids up to see him and proceeded to ask this upstanding young man for child support. Beatings ensued. She texted pictures of the bruises to the second father who forwarded them post haste to his lawyer.

The best part is the whole time since the third kid was born she was taking money from DSHS because she had been "raped." At the same time she was applying to the Canadian version of DSHS for more money, collecting child support from two guys and trying to get money from a third. She is still with the husband to some extent and they allegedly conspired two get child support but some friction started when he actually wanted some of the money.

My niece is over for the 4th. My fervent hope is she doesn't end up like her mother or one of the other leaches that spread their legs and vote for people who promise to give them other people's money.; 7/4/13, 10:08 AM
Nomennovum said...: The mother told her husband and daughter who it was immediately, and they called him to break the news.

They = Faithless wife + bastard daughter + cuckold?

Him = Fornicating alpha long gone?

Seems ... unlikely. More likely, the cuckold did NOT want to tell the biological dad and wanted nothing to do with him ... except maybe inflict harm. Assuming it was faithless wife and bastard daughter who notified bio-dad, what was their motivation? Unrelated to actual motivation, what was their stated reason?; 7/4/13, 10:13 AM
Titus said...: What kind of name is Prudie?; 7/4/13, 10:13 AM
traditionalguy said...: Can you imagine a Catholic Priest listening to this confession. Is it a sin or a virtue to get pregnant this way?

OK. maybe it's both. So does one negate the other? To be safe, tell her to do a double penance.

Next case.; 7/4/13, 10:13 AM
Saint Croix said...: The mother was horribly ashamed.

She should be, what she did was unspeakable.

Woman's sexuality is a form of power. When they abuse it, I would analogize it to a man who beats his wife or children.

In fact, I would much, much, much rather be given a black eye than suffer such emotional trauma.; 7/4/13, 10:17 AM
Nomennovum said...: In fact, I would much, much, much rather be given a black eye than suffer such emotional trauma.

I would rather cut off an arm.

Then I'd use I'd use it to beat the faithless wench bloody.; 7/4/13, 10:21 AM
Matt Sablan said...: "again, its just about the mans responsibility."

I view it more about MY responsibility.; 7/4/13, 10:21 AM
wwww said...: "Touching, truly. But how long before the daughter began her search for her real daddy?"

He's not her father or her "real" anything. He was the sperm donor.; 7/4/13, 10:24 AM
Meade said...: bagoh20 said...
"Is there anything men do to women in relationships that compares to things like castration, and this lying about the father of their children."

Besides cheating, raping and abandoning, you mean?; 7/4/13, 10:26 AM
Nomennovum said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 10:30 AM
DADvocate said...: Hahaha. The woman, and seems to think she's honest because she only lies about the important stuff. Mark this up as another reason that the smart men are on strike.; 7/4/13, 10:30 AM
DADvocate said...: Meade exposes himself as an Uncle Tim and takes the myth of the old feminist line. Maybe Ann will burn him alive in bed some night and claim abuse.; 7/4/13, 10:32 AM
YoungHegelian said...: I have a close family member who has had (counting live births, abortions & miscarriages) 6 kids by 4 fathers. This behavior started when she was 17, and, perhaps, now as she is turning 30, it is starting to subside.

Each and every time, her excuse to the world was "My birth control failed". Every time except the last one, it was a complete and total surprise to the baby-daddy that there was a bun in the oven.

All the father, except one, whose family has custody of the child, have been completely shut out of their children's lives, often with the active assistance of the State.

Honestly, I feared that she was going to tell one ne'er-do-well too many that she was pregnant, and that he was going to solve the baby problem by "aborting" her with a .38. But, you know, the really sad thing is that the guys too just took a "Meh..." attitude towards it all, and walked away from their progeny.

Life among the underclass today in America is just brutal.; 7/4/13, 10:34 AM
Anonymous said...: Roving Drunk Impregnating Robot says:

When I see a Woman with Loose Morals Hanging There I just Give it a Little 'Flick' and Now She Can Have a Baby. Heck, I Won't Even Remember in the Morning, so Morally I'm Feeling Good. It's What My Father and Grandfather Did, so there is That.; 7/4/13, 10:35 AM
Purpleslog said...: Nathan...Your story seems to be bullshit. When bullshitting in blogs its best to pay attention details. Details like Iraq not invading Kuwait until 1990.Idiot.; 7/4/13, 10:36 AM
Purpleslog said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 10:36 AM
Joe said...: I think the full column is much more interesting and reasonable than the synopsis. It seems that the letter writer feels genuinely guilty and conflicted. I do think that in an attempt to not feel alone in this, she found an unfortunate parallel with a friend, who appears to have no conscience.; 7/4/13, 10:37 AM
Eeyore Rifkin said...: The professor is being harsh. Perhaps in doing so she avoids an uncomfortable truth that makes the article compelling.

The fact that women have sex in order to get pregnant has become our culture's dirty little secret. The group Sex Out Loud recently brought the porn star James Deen to the Madison campus as part of its efforts to educate students about sex. Dollars to donuts more than one woman in the audience thought to herself, "I want to have his baby." If any dared say those words out loud, it was a joke, you know, like irony. I don't really want to have his baby. Not really. Really though, I want to have his baby.

Sigh.; 7/4/13, 10:39 AM
Saint Croix said...: I'd rather have my arms.; 7/4/13, 10:39 AM
Saint Croix said...: I like my arms.; 7/4/13, 10:39 AM
YoungHegelian said...: @Eeyore,

Guys like major athletes & rock stars carry their own condoms for use with their groupies, because the groupies have this bad habit of poking holes in the ones they provide.

Being some alpha-male's baby momma is a way into his pocketbook & his life until death do you part.; 7/4/13, 10:43 AM
Meade said...: DADvocate said...
"Meade exposes himself as an Uncle Tim[...]"

Because "Uncle Tims" condemn cheating, raping, and abandoning their wives and children? I think you need to re-read the book.; 7/4/13, 10:44 AM
dreams said...: Do we really expect people who routinely fake orgasims and then brag about it to be honest?; 7/4/13, 10:49 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: I read part of the writers story to Prudie and what I take away is that women who are not married or in a settled position feel shame for wanting to become pregnant.

Well, sorry, she should feel shame. Maybe not for wanting a child, but for doing something about it before getting in a stable relationship with a guy committed to fathering the child.

What a lot of women fail to keep in mind when they are proclaiming the right to control their own bodies and thus get pregnant when and with whom they want is that doing so irresponsibly has significant societal consequences. Sure, they may do just fine raising their young children by themselves, or with their female relatives, but it becomes far more problematic when the kids move from being cute to being teenagers, as they inevitably do.

So, females should be shamed for having children absent a fullly committed father involved. The shame is there for a reason - doing this sort of thing is bad for society. Society often ends up helping to pay for raising the children born as a result, both directly and indirectly as a result of the increased crime and increase in this behavior in the next generation. Actions have consequences, and until we are willing to incarcerate females for this sort of thing, for the cost of their behavior on society, all we really have is shame, and that seems to work less well with each generation.; 7/4/13, 10:50 AM
Nomennovum said...: Nathan...Your story seems to be bullshit. When bullshitting in blogs its best to pay attention details. Details like Iraq not invading Kuwait until 1990.Idiot. -- purpleslog

I hope that one-year disparity is not your only evidence as to the story's bullshit quotient. It seems a tad ... irrelevant.; 7/4/13, 10:50 AM
bagoh20 said...: "Besides cheating, raping and abandoning, you mean?"

I said in a relationship, so rape is not at issue, and both sexes readily cheat and abandon.

The question is what is the male act comparable to the near exclusively female, permanently unhealable, life ruining acts of either castrating your husband or lying about him being the father of your children?

I'm giving you a mulligan here Meade, because you may have originally answered under duress of a butcher knife.; 7/4/13, 10:54 AM
dreams said...: "Life among the underclass today in America is just brutal."

Liberals have destroyed the lives of people they claim to care so much about. And they keep winning elections because everyone knows that the Dems are for the poor people.; 7/4/13, 11:01 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: "I'm mentally stable,..."

BWAAAAA-HAAAAA-HAAA-HA-HA-HA-BWAAAAAA!!!

Women will tell themselves anything,...; 7/4/13, 11:03 AM
Nomennovum said...: I said in a relationship, so rape is not at issue, and both sexes readily cheat and abandon.

And women abandon with greater abandon. No-fault divorce allows them to do this. The fact that they take the kids in order to secure maximum child support payments from the dad makes no never-mind. They have destroyed a family and severed ties with children's father.; 7/4/13, 11:03 AM
RAH said...: Bruce, You are right. women want to have children, but they need to be married first. I am boggled by the many women who have children first and no marriage and then think about marriage. What is the more long term relationship a child or a marriage? Yet they are scared of marriage and not having a child.

Women should be not afraid of marriage and to get to that point refuse to have sex until they find the right man to be husband and father.

Also men should never leave to protection against pregnancy to the woman. They should always protect themselves with condoms.; 7/4/13, 11:06 AM
DADvocate said...: Purpleslog - Maybe Nathan was estimating on the dates. Maybe he's wrong about why she was called up.

"<In graduate school, genetics students typically are taught that 5 to 15 percent of the men on birth certificates are not the biological fathers of their children. In other words, as many as one of every seven men who proudly carry their newborn children out of a hospital could be a cuckold. "

Women commit statutory rape and the victim gets stuck with child support. Must minor male victims of statutory rape pay child support? "every single court has answered it in in the affirmaive..."; 7/4/13, 11:09 AM
dreams said...: "He's not her father or her "real" anything. He was the sperm donor."

From what I've read, I think some children of sperm donors do think of them as their real fathers.; 7/4/13, 11:10 AM
Saint Croix said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 11:10 AM
rcommal said...: 85% to 95% of the men listed as the father on birth certificates actually are the biological dads? You must be kidding.; 7/4/13, 11:16 AM
rcommal said...: Shame on that deceitful woman. She's a true bitch, as are all others who pull that shit. However, that does not make her Everywoman. Shockingly, there are many women who don't pull that shit, and even more shockingly, there are many who even stay with their children's father.; 7/4/13, 11:20 AM
Nomennovum said...: …exclusively female, permanently unhealable, life ruining acts of either castrating your husband or lying about him being the father of your children …

The former is taken as a joke and the later is taken as irrelevant. As Freeman’s anecdote points out, the offspring of cuckoldry are treated --legally and by selfless pseudo-fathers – as the responsibility of both the pseudo-fathers and the biological fathers (and if they can’t pay, then all the other taxpayers), not the responsibility of the mother, whose fornication is blamed on “rocky marriages” (note the lack of self-blame) or other emotional and psychological issues of the cuckold.

Oh, but Freeman’s acquaintance’s mom felt “ashamed”! So ashamed, she went and called the biological dad after two decades to tell him all about it, further humiliating the cuckold. And the daughter went and told her friends and acquaintances. Such shame do women feel. For what purpose, only the two women know but will never tell, but it had nothing to do with helping the loving and selfless cuckold.; 7/4/13, 11:22 AM
rcommal said...: But do let's tar all women with the same broad brush.; 7/4/13, 11:22 AM
William said...: The higher virtue, as we have learned recently, is not honesty but authenticity. This woman is loyal to the Darwinian imperative of having a a baby and finding someone to pay for it. The biological imperative is prior to ten commandments and has a history of trumping them......Men are also driven by the same biological imperative. Many of the feminists here will no doubt claim that chloroform and duct tape are the wrong way to win a girl's heart. Admittedly it is an aggressive form of courtship, but there can be no denying its efficacy. A basement dungeon courtship demonstrates true commitment on the man's part.; 7/4/13, 11:22 AM
DADvocate said...: Because "Uncle Tims" condemn cheating, raping, and abandoning their wives and children? I think you need to re-read the book.

You're pushing falsehoods and lies that are intended justofu and rationalize persecution, bias and sometimes murder against men. The book has nothing to do with this. Idiotic cheap shot. Plus, I'm not finished reading it the first time, but I've been covering issues like this for years in my blog (and before).

How many man are denied access to their children by unfair courts and laws? Why did Mary Winkler in Tennessee get away this blasting her husband with a shotgun while he slept? Why don't you condemn the systemic and deep bias against males in our society and laws? If you read the book you would know what it's about, unless your so deeply invested in contrary beliefs that you can't accept the facts.

Nice little cheap shot with no basis fact. You're a real knight in shining armor.; 7/4/13, 11:25 AM
Anonymous said...: Saint Croix, sorry to hear about your experience. It's a good man who "stops" when he's told to. She should've never started.; 7/4/13, 11:25 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: creeley23,

I had a friend whose lover saved their used condoms to impregnate herself later. She told him during a fight.

That's what I like about women:

You can count them to stay true to form.

When I discovered my (white) wife of 20 years cheating - which I deserved as much as these guys AND while I was planning a 20th Anniversary trip to Japan - and she got so unnerved she called the cops saying, "There's a black man in my house,.." I KNEW my education about women was complete,...; 7/4/13, 11:26 AM
dreams said...: Just another reason men don't live as long as women. Thanks to technological advances our modern era favors women unlike previous eras when they often died from childbirth or a lifetime of hard physical labor.; 7/4/13, 11:36 AM
Gahrie said...: The Courts have already ruled that it is perfectly fine for a woman to lie about birth control, and ordered men to pay child support.; 7/4/13, 11:37 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Meade,

bagoh20 said...
"Is there anything men do to women in relationships that compares to things like castration, and this lying about the father of their children."

Besides cheating, raping and abandoning, you mean?

Uh, Meade, that's YOUR generation - the rest of us are just paying the price,...; 7/4/13, 11:38 AM
Nomennovum said...: and she got so unnerved she called the cops saying, "There's a black man in my house,.." I KNEW my education about women was complete,...

I bet the huge majority of women going through divorce either call the cops or threaten to do so at some point during the process. I know my wife would threaten this whenever I would raise my voice or otherwise make her uncomfortable (usually when I pointed out how she was destroying our children's home and family). She cited "emotional abuse," a 100% meaningless term. My attorney said that in his experience 50% of the wives actually call the cops. Cops must arrest in these situations. This is how men lose their homes and their children. Women lie. On advice of my lawyer, I took to recording every conversation I had with my wife. It saved me on one occasion, when I pulled out the recorder as she was dialing. I should have let her press charges. I would have made out better, but I was an idiot.; 7/4/13, 11:38 AM
Gahrie said...: But do let's tar all women with the same broad brush.

Why not? It happens to men every day.; 7/4/13, 11:39 AM
Anonymous said...: The pathologies of women are celebrated in story and song.

I thought of the song, "Sovay," sung by The Pentangle, which is an old folk song about a young woman who gives her lover a diamond ring. Then one night she disguises herself as a highwayman, ambushes her lover, and demands his valuables including the ring. He gives her his watch and gold but refuses to turn over the ring and is even willing to die on that account.

The next morning the two lovers meet and he notices she has his watch hanging from her clothes, and he blushes. She admits to the robbery and explains herself thus:

"I only did it for to know
If you would be a man or no.
If you'd given me that ring," she said,
"I'd have pulled the trigger, pulled the trigger,
and shot you dead."

Which makes for a great song, but is a downright whacked idea.; 7/4/13, 11:39 AM
Gahrie said...: I bet the huge majority of women going through divorce either call the cops or threaten to do so at some point during the process.

What is disturbing is the increasing number of kids/women who call CPS on their parents/husband because they were mad. (even though no abuse had occurred); 7/4/13, 11:40 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: ""Uncle Tims" condemn cheating, raping, and abandoning their wives and children?"

Where's your "first" wife and kids again, Meade?; 7/4/13, 11:42 AM
Eeyore Rifkin said...: @YoungHegelian

Hegel had groupies. His groupies begat groupies, who begat groupies...

Kierkegaard not so much.

Schopenhauer's posthumous groupies divide into two categories: those who are embarrassed by his misogyny, and those who aren't.

Kant continues to inspire groupies, however, there's no reason to believe Kantians are sexually active.

Derrida had groupies, but he admitted to dissimulation about his sex life, so any advice he might have offered about prophylactics should be taken with a grain of salt.

Socrates, finally, was put to death for corrupting the moral of his groupies. Hmm.; 7/4/13, 11:42 AM
Anonymous said...: I've never met nor heard of a woman that lied about rape, but I've met plenty that mess with pregnancy birth control. I'd say it is 50/50 and often the women who are the honest ones find themselves alone.

i.e. friend who kept trying to get her guy to marry her the right way. He kept refusing. They finally break up at age 32. Three months later Mr. Reluctant has gotten someone pregnant "by accident" and they're married, but "honest woman" is alone.

The one night stand woman seems less of a problem unless she's demanding support. For that all I can say is guys need to look out for birth control and lies the same as women have to because the state can take your money.; 7/4/13, 11:44 AM
Saint Croix said...: Saint Croix, sorry to hear about your experience. It's a good man who "stops" when he's told to. She should've never started.

Thanks, Inga. I never should have started too!

Takes two to tango.; 7/4/13, 11:47 AM
Baron Zemo said...: That's gonna leave a mark Crack.

Welcome back dude.; 7/4/13, 11:50 AM
Gahrie said...: They should always protect themselves with condoms.

Not good enough. Women have used the contents of used condoms (and their mouths after oral sex) to impregnant themselves, and the man has been forced to pay child support.; 7/4/13, 11:50 AM
Bender said...: When marriage no longer has any real meaning, when authentic marriage is no longer seen as worthy of protection, what the hell do you expect??

Of course you are going to see crap like this, of course you are going to see all over the place various little episodes that completely erode the bonds that hold us together as a civil society.

We sowed these seeds of societal unraveling long ago. We tossed some super-fertilizer on the ground last week.

You reap what you sow.; 7/4/13, 11:51 AM
William said...: My past history has not been completely idyllic. My second wife picked the basement lock and ran away. I don't completely blame her. When you're sixteen, you're young and restless and don't want to spend all day chained to the basement wall. I do, however, blame the Latvian adoption agency who refused to refund my money or any part of it. Well, you live and you learn.....I just think that it's unfair the way all basement hobbyists are being unfairly stereotyped as Ariel Castro ogres.; 7/4/13, 11:51 AM
Nomennovum said...: We tossed some super-fertilizer on the ground last week.

Not fertilizer. Funeral flowers.; 7/4/13, 11:54 AM
bagoh20 said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 11:55 AM
Gahrie said...: Most men are too chickenshit or too naïve to demand a DNA test.

They are meaningless. You can bring a copy of that test showing you are not the father to court, and still be forced to support the child. Happens all the time.; 7/4/13, 11:56 AM
bagoh20 said...: See, that gay marriage thing is starting to look pretty smart. A guy doesn't have to deal with an evil woman, and the two women deserve each other.

I know both gay male couples and lesbian couples. Except for the early romance, the lesbians are always in some state of estrangement, bad mouthing each other behind their back, but the guys almost always seem pretty happy and supportive, except if there is cheating. For the lesbians, monogamy is not enough at all.; 7/4/13, 11:57 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Except for the early romance, the lesbians are always in some state of estrangement, bad mouthing each other behind their back,....

Wow - it's almost like you're using euphemisms:

Lesbian break-ups (which, quicker than shit, almost always follow "lesbian relationships") redefine viciousness,...; 7/4/13, 12:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Just another meeting of the He Male Women's Hater Club.; 7/4/13, 12:10 PM
wwww said...: "The question is what is the male act comparable to the near exclusively female, permanently unhealable, life ruining acts of either castrating your husband or lying about him being the father of your children?"

Stop being naive. Evil people exist, both YX and XX.

acid attacks.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/08/30/montreal-st-arnauld-burned-acid-longueuil-brother.html; 7/4/13, 12:10 PM
Saint Croix said...: When you get a good one, hold on!

and be nice; 7/4/13, 12:14 PM
Meade said...: The Crack Emcee said...
"Where's your "first" wife and kids again, Meade?"

Creeps and snoops like Crack seem to think, because they make the details of their personal lives public, that they somehow have the right to demand answers to their questions about other people's personal lives.

Very not macho behavior.; 7/4/13, 12:15 PM
Gahrie said...: Just another meeting of the He Male Women's Hater Club.

Kiss my ass feminist. Fuck you.

I'm tired of you guys demanding preferential treatment, getting it, and still attacking and abusing men.; 7/4/13, 12:16 PM
Nomennovum said...: acid attacks.

Very disgusting, very Muslim, and very serious

I'm curious, though: When was the last time that the issue of a wife or girlfriend castrating her significant other was taken anywhere near as seriously?; 7/4/13, 12:18 PM
Meade said...: "Just another meeting of the He Male Women's Hater Club."

Not to be confused with the She Male Women's Hater Club. Or is it?

But why here? Does the Trooper York Clubhouse not open until late on holidays?; 7/4/13, 12:19 PM
bagoh20 said...: Acid attacks is a pretty good answer, but they are way less common, and don't usually involve attacking the person you sleep with every night, and they are noway near as universal across cultures and history. My point is that the level of cruelty and deceit with these primarily female atrocities is unmatched in the other direction.

As for the XY and XX are the same on this or the "woman haters club" jab, all you have to do is make your case. Just claiming things and expecting it to be accepted is a female ploy. Us men require evidence, facts, proof.; 7/4/13, 12:19 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: "I bet the huge majority of women going through divorce either call the cops or threaten to do so at some point during the process"

My husband and I have been married now 20 years. Second marriage for both of us. Our sad stories, or hilarious if you have a dark sense of humor.

His first wife was a major slut with a capital S. When he found out that while he was working his ass off for her, she was working her ass for just about everyone that he knew including a so called best friend. So.....he moved out of the house, got an apartment on his own, retrieved his belongings from the old house, including a new washer and dryer that he had just bought. (He said, "I can find another woman, but I can't just go get another washer and dryer for nothing" "I don't need a wife, but I do need a washer and dryer."....I love that practical streak. It matches mine. LOL)

Sooooo...... soon to be ex wifey comes over to HIS apartment all gooned up on liquor and cocaine to yell at him and demand that he have sex with her. No thanks....germ bag. She calls the cops and says that he is being abusive, and they throw him out of his OWN apartment, which she proceeds to trash and pass out in. He comes home in the morning and dumps her unconscious ass out in the street a few blocks away. Cleans up the apartment and goes to bed.

How is this possible that he should be kicked out of his own place that he rented to try to get away from the bitch?

I didn't need to call the cops or threaten to do, in my personal divorce drama. The filet knife stabbed into the driver's side seat of his truck right about where his nuts would be, was hint enough for the cheating son of a bitch to not try to come home or ever bother me again. That and all of his crap that I threw into the back of the truck, parked in front of the bar where he was having a great time with his girlfriend. I got tired of filling up the pick up bed and decided it was too much work so the rest of stuff ended out in the driveway.

No need to call the police :-); 7/4/13, 12:22 PM
Ann Althouse said...: This post is bringing out the hostility in people.

Why?

To me, it was mostly about the letter-writer's cockeyed pride... first, in keeping her secret, and second, in wanting to horn in on the friend's out-and-proud approach.

It was so indulgently self-regarding and twisted and paradoxical.

But you guys wanted to talk about that terrrrrible problem of female autonomy once again.

That must really bug you, huh? That women are human beings.

If you want her to have your child, show your worthiness. If you don't want her to have a child, don't have sex with her.

It's pretty simple. If you want to make it more complicated, don't whine about it.

If you want to be the whiner type, stick to the simple approach.; 7/4/13, 12:22 PM
Anonymous said...: Translation of Meade: Shut up, LOSER!; 7/4/13, 12:23 PM
bagoh20 said...: And Nomennovum's point is very important: acid attacks are not funny to anyone, but come on girls, you know that you can't even bring up cutting off a man genitals without laughing.; 7/4/13, 12:25 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "If you want to make it more complicated, don't whine about it. If you want to be the whiner type, stick to the simple approach."

That can be a general rule to be applied to other things. And it's not just for men.; 7/4/13, 12:25 PM
DADvocate said...: Just another meeting of the He Male Women's Hater Club.

The man-hater, Inga, tries to shame us back into submission. The truth hurts, doesn't it, Inga? We're just expressing our feelings like we're told we need to do so much more than we do. Did you think several decades of treating men like shit would cultivate good feelings?; 7/4/13, 12:27 PM
Anonymous said...: Translation of Althouse: Shut up, LOSER!; 7/4/13, 12:27 PM
bagoh20 said...: And Althouse throws in a "yea shut up!"

It's a tag team match. Steel cage, no rules, last man/woman standing wins.

I thought we wanted to discuss issues, but maybe some are not acceptable in female company.; 7/4/13, 12:28 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @wwww,

Stop being naive. Evil people exist, both YX and XX.

No one here denies the existence of male violence. We just has a session on the Egyptian mobs, remember?

The issue is that while feminism has come a long way since the Victorian Era, it still seems to want to hold on to the "Angel in the Household" image of women. In days of yore, child-rearing texts would emphasis that the will of girls had to be broken just as much as the boys if they were to be made moral adults, just in different ways to avoid different sets of "sins". Now, most of the culture seems not to understand how women can be evil in any fashion. Look at this article from feminist web site. It spends much of its time trying to convince its readers that lesbian women can abuse their partners at all!

It's this kind of moral blindness that we're railing against.; 7/4/13, 12:28 PM
Nomennovum said...: I always find it funny when a feminist accuses a heterosexual male, who literally loves women, of being a woman-hater.

No, you dim bulb lying feminist. We hate feminism. We recognize and deal with women's natures. It makes us happier humans. Contentment. It's a very Zen thing. Try it instead of trying to psychoanalyze everyone. You can't do it. It's mental masturbation, satisfying at first, but unrewarding for very long.; 7/4/13, 12:29 PM
bagoh20 said...: Oh yea, and I forgot, Inga also said shut up. I think we got that point already, and should move on.; 7/4/13, 12:29 PM
Anonymous said...: To me, it was mostly about the letter-writer's cockeyed pride... first, in keeping her secret, and second, in wanting to horn in on the friend's out-and-proud approach.

To us, it was a topic for general discussion, not your particular take on it.

That "whining" charge can go both ways.; 7/4/13, 12:30 PM
DADvocate said...: But you guys wanted to talk about that terrrrrible problem of female autonomy once again.

That must really bug you, huh? That women are human beings.

If you want her to have your child, show your worthiness. If you don't want her to have a child, don't have sex with her.

It's pretty simple. If you want to make it more complicated, don't whine about it.

If you want to be the whiner type, stick to the simple approach.

Nothing like the self-righteous, condescending approach by a woman who apparently can't stand men, and some women (DBQ) telling the truth. You care so much about the rights of gays but nothing about men in general. You're full of shit.; 7/4/13, 12:32 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Nomen, you are wrong about how the story I related played out. It was the husband who said that the other man must be notified, that it would be wrong for him to never find out he'd fathered another child. The daughter wanted nothing to do with the other man. (Which is, I think, what most daughters would expect her reaction to be. Do you have a daughter? I'm a daughter, and if I'd been in this girl's position, I've no doubt that my immediate reaction would also have been ferocious loyalty to the father who raised me.); 7/4/13, 12:35 PM
bagoh20 said...: I'm not claiming that men are wonderful. I'm saying that you girls are kinda mean, and should start being nicer to us. Stop lying, don't cut off our junk, and let us install the damned stripper pole in the man cave.; 7/4/13, 12:35 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: No one here denies the existence of male violence. We just has a session on the Egyptian mobs, remember?

True. No on is denying that human beings, men and women, commit violent, despicable and vile acts. However, two million people protesting in Egypt and the relatively small number of violent acts that have been reported is pretty remarkable. Not to excuse the actions, but I would propose that we compare the numbers of violent acts, rape, murders and shootings that will be taking place over this 4th of July weekend in Detroit, Chicago, LA and many other inner city urban environments. And these people don't even have the excuse of a political uprising.

You can tar all men with the same brush, as the feminists want to do. You can classify all women as sluts. Neither of those actions is true or accurate. There are bad people and bad apples in every aspect of human behaviour. Just because my ex was a man whore, doesn't mean that I think all men are. Same for my now husband.

Did we look with jaundiced eyes at the opposite sex for many years after our separate experience. Damn straight. I understand bitterness and hatred. But....if had we boxed ourselves into resentment and into reflexively classifying all men or women as being the same, we would not have the extremely happy last 24 years (we dated for 4 years) that we have had now.; 7/4/13, 12:38 PM
Nomennovum said...: don't whine about it.

Here we go. Same old same old.; 7/4/13, 12:39 PM
jr565 said...: Matthew wrote:

"again, its just about the mans responsibility."

I view it more about MY responsibility.

I personally think if you get someone pregnant you should provide for your kid, so I'm not against responsibility. But you are responsible for HER choice. Which is not fair. If you are responsible, you should also have choice. But you don't. If you don't have choice, should you be forced to be responsible?; 7/4/13, 12:41 PM
Gabriel Hanna said...: Imagine a loyal wife who finds out, after twenty years of marriage, her husband fathered a child by another woman and has kept it from him all these years.

Would not most women feel that a potentially-marriage destroying violation of trust?

And suppose further that the husband had secretly been garnishing his wife's paycheck to pay for the raising of the baby this entire time?

And suppose further that the other woman was able to demand back child support from the wife, and a court would give it to her?

This is where cuckoldry puts men. It comes from "cuckoo" , a bird which puts its eggs in another birds nest.; 7/4/13, 12:41 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: People, both men and women, are capable of doing terrible things to one another. This is not news to anyone. A person must proceed with life knowing this.; 7/4/13, 12:42 PM
bagoh20 said...: "don't whine about it."

Yea, isn't that a veiled attempted literary castration. It's trying to emasculate me. I can feel the cold steel of those words, and it's not helping.; 7/4/13, 12:42 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: You can tar all men with the same brush, as the feminists want to do. You can classify all women as sluts. Neither of those actions is true or accurate. There are bad people and bad apples in every aspect of human behaviour. Just because my ex was a man whore, doesn't mean that I think all men are. Same for my now husband.

Did we look with jaundiced eyes at the opposite sex for many years after our separate experience. Damn straight. I understand bitterness and hatred. But....if had we boxed ourselves into resentment and into reflexively classifying all men or women as being the same, we would not have the extremely happy last 24 years (we dated for 4 years) that we have had now.

Well put.; 7/4/13, 12:44 PM
Nomennovum said...: Nomen, you are wrong about how the story I related played out. It was the husband who said that the other man must be notified, that it would be wrong for him to never find out he'd fathered another child.

OK, but I find it very difficult to understand this thought process from a man's standpoint. At risk of offending the blog owner, I find this to be woman's thinking (or better, women's rationalization). Maybe it's just the thinking of an irretrievable cuckold.; 7/4/13, 12:44 PM
bagoh20 said...: "I personally think if you get someone pregnant you should provide for your kid..."

Except for rape, nobody just gets someone pregnant. They both decide to do it, on purpose or by risking it. It's like two people pitching in to make something. When it's done, you wouldn't give just one all the rights and the other just responsibility for maintenance. Not within a system of true equality anyway.; 7/4/13, 12:47 PM
jr565 said...: "If you want her to have your child, show your worthiness. If you don't want her to have a child, don't have sex with her.

It's pretty simple. If you want to make it more complicated, don't whine about it."

but that's not how it works out. If I want her to have my child, but she doesn't then I don't have a choice. And if I don't want to have a kid, but do want to have sex with her, then she can get an abortion.

See how, for the men the assumption is that the woman will have the kid and he man must be responsible? If you don't want a kid don't have sex?
Well why doesn't that work for a woman? If she doesn't want to have a kid she can have the sex and then abort it because of "choice". She's not a villain for making that choice, but the man is if he doesn't want to deal with the pregnancy. Because he's supposed to,provide for a kid that he doesn't want.
Why can't a man use the exact same rationale to avoid child support that a woman uses to abort her kid? I didn't want it. I can't afford it. I had no choice. You did. You knew my intentions and had a kid anyway. Since you made the choice, knowing that, don't expect me to,pay for your choice.; 7/4/13, 12:48 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @DBQ,

I think that our culture today recognizes one mortal sin: violence. And that sin is a predominantly male sin.

The other "sins" of pride, venality, selfishness, etc, which afflicted both sexes equally, have disappeared as objects of moral reproach. We have no vocabulary in which to condemn them. We may even celebrate them as parts of "autonomy".

What this leaves us with are articles like the one I linked to, where folks are amazed at the existence of feminine evil. In this I think we do a major disservice mostly to women, who are the primary victims of other women. Sane, socially functional women seem to cut their "sisters" more slack until burned than socially functional men, who realize at a much earlier age that many of their fellow men are close to the "dark side".; 7/4/13, 12:49 PM
dreams said...: I don't know how typical my experience with Facebook is but I see posts all the time by young to early middle age women commenting about how stupid men or whatever and of course they get some likes from other women but I've noticed no man has ever dared to offer a dissenting comment and the ages of the men range from young to old.; 7/4/13, 12:51 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "I'm not claiming that men are wonderful. I'm saying that you girls are kinda mean, and should start being nicer to us. Stop lying, don't cut off our junk, and let us install the damned stripper pole in the man cave."

You're the one referring to the body part men used to take pride in as "junk."

When did that start? Might be a clue.; 7/4/13, 12:51 PM
bagoh20 said...: "Imagine a loyal wife who finds out, after twenty years of marriage, her husband fathered a child by another woman and has kept it from him all these years."

That would be terrible, but I don't think anywhere near the level of cruel of letting the man love, care for, and raise a child everyday face to face, in his lap, under his arm and all the while know it's a lie he is oblivious to.; 7/4/13, 12:51 PM
Bender said...: This post is bringing out the hostility in people.
Why?
To me, it was mostly about the letter-writer's cockeyed pride . . . It was so indulgently self-regarding and twisted and paradoxical.

AA writes a hostile post, attacking the woman as prideful, indulgently self-regarding and twisted and paradoxical, and then complains that others are following suit.

Of course, in her usual passive-aggressive fashion, she doesn't even recognize what spews from her as being hostile. Kind of like the person who pees on you, and when you object, complains with "what? can't you take a joke?"; 7/4/13, 12:52 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: "If you want her to have your child, show your worthiness. If you don't want her to have a child, don't have sex with her"

Shouldn't that worthiness thingy go both ways? Or is it only the men that must prove their worthiness? Do we assume that women by the mere fact of being female are already worthy and doesn't need to put out any effort to be worthy of "her man"?; 7/4/13, 12:53 PM
bagoh20 said...: "You're the one referring to the body part men used to take pride in as "junk."

When did that start? Might be a clue."

I just use the modern language of our day, I don't make the rules. Would you prefer I use the Victorian terms you are more comfortable with. We have this "Urban Dictionary" thing now to help you keep up with us kids.; 7/4/13, 12:54 PM
Ann Althouse said...: OED:

junk

1d. transf. Any discarded or waste material that can be put to some use: cf. junk-dealer n. at Compounds 2. Also, second-hand or discarded articles of little or no use or value; rubbish.

1842 Congress. Globe 23 Feb. 261 Champagne was charged for under the head of ‘old junk’.
1884 H. Frederic in Pall Mall Gaz. 6 Aug. 11/1 Many..[shops] devoted to the sale of rags, and the sweepings of a city, bones, junk—a collection of pestilence-breeding filth.
1913 V. Steer Romance of Cinema 30 The life of a film is very short. It is ‘first run’ to-day and ‘junk’ a few short weeks hence.
1924 J. Galsworthy White Monkey i. v. 33 His ‘junk’, however, was not devoid of the taste and luxury which overflows from the greater houses of England.
1935 A. Christie Death in Clouds xi. 118, I have my collection..that all connoisseurs know—and also I have—well, frankly, Messieurs, let us call it junk!
1940 Punch 3 Apr. 386/2 A great deal of ecclesiastical junk which the Vatican..would have obvious difficulty in dispersing.
1952 R. Finlayson Schooner came to Atia 112 The boat was found battered to junk in a pool.
1974 Woman 4 May 5/1 Collecting junk for creative work is a way of life at school.; 7/4/13, 12:55 PM
Anonymous said...: In modern America, women have considerably more power in sexual relationships and therefore more opportunity to abuse that power.

Not long ago men had more power and abused it. It's not surprising.

What now? I don't think shrugging our shoulders and saying, "Everyone abuses power sometime, so stop talking about it," is the answer, especially when something systemic is going on.

It's not just about a few bad women victimizing a few hapless men. Today we have a society and legal system seriously skewed against men, and just about everyone has seen examples close up or nearby.

It's part of the huge demographic shift to single-mother families and alienated fathers that is doing incalculable damage to our society.; 7/4/13, 12:55 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Reminds me of the mother in "Carrie" referring to breasts as "dirty pillows."; 7/4/13, 12:56 PM
jr565 said...: Family planning decisions should include the intent of the man, and whether he will be part of the child's life. Just as a woman's decisions will dictate whether she will abort her kid. A lot of women don't want to be mothers because of their career. They think they aren't doing ,that well financially now,so bringing a kid into the world would be a hardship. So part of the smily planning decision is not having a kid until you're ready. Abortion. You don't think those decisions should also be relevant for guys? Why can't they say? I'm not ready for parental responsibility right now because of my career, and child support is expensive. So, I choose not to contribute. If you still want a kid, despite knowing that then don't expect child support and raise it on your owns hat would be a consideration a wonman would face in her consideration on whether to abort. And she is the only decider.
If women are the sole decider don't couch the argument as a choice one for men. Because she would have the choice to make me a father financially, while she can also make the choice to not make herself a mother through terminating her pregnancy even if I want to be a father.
Her body her choice. Babies body, her choice. My wallet, her choice. And that choice will extend long past when the baby was in her uterus.; 7/4/13, 12:57 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Meade,

Creeps and snoops like Crack seem to think, because they make the details of their personal lives public, that they somehow have the right to demand answers to their questions about other people's personal lives.

Very not macho behavior.

There's a "demand" in there somewhere? (You wanna have that conversation about you, and the fear you project on others, again? What are you afraid of, Meade? That maybe, in the cold light of day, it might be discovered you and Ann aren't such good people after all? Aww. Keep your secrets, buddy, you're the kinds of people they're made for,...) All that aside, what a chickenshit answer to a direct question. Here's an easier one:

Do you have any male friends, so you can learn to emulate how to be one?

And speaking of which - if I'm a creep - what do you call people who use MY personal information to attack me, as you did a few days ago? Or are you going to try and pretend my question, today, just came out of the blue? Fuck, it just occurred to me:

As a beta, do you even know what "chickenshit" means - in the context of men, I mean?

I know, already, you identify with the female version,...; 7/4/13, 12:57 PM
Saint Croix said...: If you don't want her to have a child, don't have sex with her.

I can see Ann Althouse scolding a pregnant woman now. "If you don't want to have a child, don't have sex with a man."

And then she says...

"It's pretty simple. If you want to make it more complicated, don't whine about it."

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, that's just the rhetoric for men.; 7/4/13, 1:01 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Shouldn't that worthiness thingy go both ways? Or is it only the men that must prove their worthiness? Do we assume that women by the mere fact of being female are already worthy and doesn't need to put out any effort to be worthy of "her man"?"

The worthiness proof -- on the subject under discussion -- is the woman going through with the pregnancy, which is a huge undertaking. The man has lost control of his sperm, when he left it somewhere that he could not control.

I've already said that the concept is a generality that has applications elsewhere, and feel free to talk about them.

I was responding to the male anger expressed here.

My response to a lot of that is: Watch where you put that stuff, because it will be out of your control.

Women have a different set of problems, but I wasn't seeing women complaining here.; 7/4/13, 1:03 PM
William said...: Yeats observed that the god of love has pitched his tent in a place of excrement. The pursuit of libidinal happiness is generally not so edifying the pursuit of the elusive Higgs boson. There's always that moment upon commencing a relationship when one wonders if one will end up feeling like a cad or a shmuck. If you don't care to take the relationship to the next level, there's a pretty good chance she will make you feel like a cad. On the other hand, if the woman doesn't want to take the relationship to a higher level, there's a good chance that the cheap slut will make you feel like a schmuck.....It seems ridiculous that with all this cloning technology and the high quality of internet porn currently available that people continue to play these courtship games that are mostly doomed to failure.; 7/4/13, 1:03 PM
Nomennovum said...: Sperm is cheap. Eggs are dear. Penises are junk to be cut off, if the owner displeases an egg producer. This is the way of nature. The role of us penis life support systems is to support the egg bearers and their fetuses that they allow to survive and to move heaven and earth to make sure the egg producers don't run amok, which their natures lead them to do if not corralled. We are failing in the latter. The civilization we built to do these things is slowly crumbling about our ears. And some of us don’t want to play the old game anymore.

(This is where some tiresome crone sarcastically says, “Doom.”); 7/4/13, 1:06 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Oh, wait, I'm sorry, that's just the rhetoric for men."

Check my comment at 12;25:

""If you want to make it more complicated, don't whine about it. If you want to be the whiner type, stick to the simple approach." That can be a general rule to be applied to other things. And it's not just for men."

Jeez. You are blinded by your own anger and sense of victimhood.

You want respect for your manhood? Try reading with comprehension, thinking rationally, not jumping to conclusion that glaringly show what you are afraid of, and not being so afraid of independent women.

Beta.; 7/4/13, 1:06 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: And people think I'm nuts because of this zany belief I hold and teach my children--that sex is safe and wonderful within the confines of a mutually respectful, loving & honest marriage, yet is dangerous and hurtful with the power to destroy lives outside of that framework.; 7/4/13, 1:06 PM
Anonymous said...: "Just another meeting of the He Male Women's Hater Club."
----------------
"Kiss my ass feminist. Fuck you."

7/4/13, 12:16 PM
-----------------------
I'm a feminist? Bwhahahaha! Sorry to burst your very manly bubble, but nope, I'd get tossed out of the Feminists Club in a heartbeat.

So much hostility, no wonder men complain of not getting laid.; 7/4/13, 1:06 PM
jr565 said...: If we're for choice of family planning, then lets be for choice for men too. If women aren't villains for not wanting kids and then killing them, lets not make villains out of men who don't want to be dads on the same premise and decide not to pay for the choice of the female.
It may be heartless and callous, but then again SO IS KILLING YOUR KID, and that hasn't stopped women from making it the absolute right they must defend to their death.

They pretend that its only a choice for them, but in fact it directly impacts many lives and gives them far more power over more than just their uterus. If your freedom of choice justifies the killing of someone growing inside you, and turning an unwilling participant into your slave, then perhaps its a right that should not be a right.; 7/4/13, 1:08 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Ann Althouse,

This post is bringing out the hostility in people.

Why?

You're an idiot sometimes:

You put this in front of us - knowing you're a feminist.

That's like me, throwing some Al Sharpton crap at you, while declaring you should all bow to Black Power.

And then there's the fact your ethics drift from day to day, post to post, thought to thought, and word to word. Do you REALLY think we "losers" buy you disagreeing with this behavior - when we know (KNOW) you'll be defending it tomorrow?

YOU are almost the ultimate example of what we're railing about,...; 7/4/13, 1:08 PM
bagoh20 said...: "Reminds me of the mother in "Carrie" referring to breasts as "dirty pillows.""

The first time I saw that movie I thought "dirty pillows" was referring to feminine napkins. It still made sense in way. You should not be letting boys see them, and they are little "dirty pillows".

See, (and by "see", I mean "Oh and") men assume you are saying what you mean. When I say "my junk" I mean junk - old, rarely used, once new and appreciated, but although still functional, mostly valued in the sentimental sense - equipment.; 7/4/13, 1:08 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: We are well beyond the children dramas or whether the man is worthy of being a father or the woman worthy of being a mother. Although sometimes I think there SHOULD be a worthiness test for the benefit of the child. Many parents are just not worthy of being parents to any child.

This is what I consider being worthy. It is a two way street.

My husband is out today in the 100 degree heat plus high humidity on the 4th of July pulling a pump and installing a new system, so some people can have water.....not to mention that this is how we make our $$ right now. Note the 'we'....we are a team. Could he put them off and make them suffer without water? Could he not work so hard and bring all of his earnings back? (Ok almost all...there is such a thing as a cash discount /wink). Could he be spending his time at the bar? Hang out ALL day with his buddies?. Are our plans for today ruined? Yes. So? Go to plan B.

He works damn hard and now that I am not occupied with an office or my own business....I work hard every day to be worthy of him, to make his life easier. He does the same for me.

When he comes home we will have BBQ pork ribs (I am steaming them right now), corn on the cob, macaroni salad, green salad, fresh rolls and his favorite jello salad (by popular request). Strawberry ice-cream for dessert. First we will have a few cocktails to relax. The laundry will be clean and folded. The house will be neat, or relatively so. Feminists all over are having their head's explode. Since I'm not bringing in the big bucks anymore from my financial planning practice...... THIS is how I can be worthy.

Each in our own way.; 7/4/13, 1:10 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Sperm is cheap. Eggs are dear. Penises are junk to be cut off, if the owner displeases an egg producer. This is the way of nature. The role of us penis life support systems is to support the egg bearers and their fetuses that they allow to survive and to move heaven and earth to make sure the egg producers don't run amok, which their natures lead them to do if not corralled. We are failing in the latter. The civilization we built to do these things is slowly crumbling about our ears. And some of us don’t want to play the old game anymore."

This is sooo beta.

Keep in mind that there are sperm banks, and these will only get better and better. The penis doesn't need to be kept on life support. Sperm can be frozen, and it can be delivered with no help at all from the penis of this half-man that is sometimes found attached to that "discarded or waste material that can be put to some use."

Beta.; 7/4/13, 1:11 PM
jr565 said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 1:11 PM
Anonymous said...: "The worthiness proof -- on the subject under discussion -- is the woman going through with the pregnancy, which is a huge undertaking. The man has lost control of his sperm, when he left it somewhere that he could not control.

I've already said that the concept is a generality that has applications elsewhere, and feel free to talk about them.

My response to a lot of that is: Watch where you put that stuff, because it will be out of your control."

7/4/13, 1:03 PM
Exactly! Just what I was saying a couple of days ago when I said that a male should not engage in sex with a woman he doesn't thouroughly know, even if they are married to them. Don't women until you've discussed this pregnancy thingie.; 7/4/13, 1:12 PM
Anonymous said...: *Marry*; 7/4/13, 1:12 PM
Anonymous said...: The man has lost control of his sperm, when he left it somewhere that he could not control.

More clever lecturing from Althouse. So, in that vein: the blogger has put her words somewhere that she cannot control.

Watch where you put that stuff, because it will be out of your control.

***

I wasn't seeing women complaining here.

You are doing plenty of complaining here.; 7/4/13, 1:14 PM
Mr Wibble said...: OK, but I find it very difficult to understand this thought process from a man's standpoint. At risk of offending the blog owner, I find this to be woman's thinking (or better, women's rationalization). Maybe it's just the thinking of an irretrievable cuckold.

I would argue that it's the opposite of cuckold behavior. A cuckold would repeat the feminist mantra that it's "not biology that makes a father".

Instead, the husband is putting the right of a man to have a relationship with his biological children above any discomfort that the mother or daughter may feel. If the biological father wants nothing to do with the girl, then the husband can resume his role as her father with honor, knowing that he wasn't party to any sort of deception.; 7/4/13, 1:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Creely seems to think that when women are getting their daily lashing from men, they should just cower and take their beating like nice little women. "Don't you dare fight back, (or defend yourself) just for that, I'll show you what for!"; 7/4/13, 1:18 PM
Ann Althouse said...: You know what's sexy?

Wound-licking!; 7/4/13, 1:18 PM
dreams said...: Still, its nice that there are men to build the roads, skyscrapers and fix the plumbing. Imagine what would happen to our modern world if some disease wiped out all the men but women were able to clone themselves, I think it would be kind of like that show about what would happen to the world without people.; 7/4/13, 1:18 PM
dreams said...: "I would argue that it's the opposite of cuckold behavior. A cuckold would repeat the feminist mantra that it's "not biology that makes a father".
Instead, the husband is putting the right of a man to have a relationship with his biological children above any discomfort that the mother or daughter may feel. If the biological father wants nothing to do with the girl, then the husband can resume his role as her father with honor, knowing that he wasn't party to any sort of deception."

That seems likely to me to have been his motivation.; 7/4/13, 1:22 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "she even calls men betas who complain about the inequity created because she has a uterus."

Man, you didn't even have the vigor to push the shift key down for that observation.

Shiftless betaism personified.; 7/4/13, 1:23 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Womb-envy, actually expressed.

Truly sad.; 7/4/13, 1:23 PM
bagoh20 said...: "Is betas the equivalent of calling someone a fag?"

Betas unite! The Althouses of the world have lorded over us long enough, and it's time they get a taste of their own medicine. We demand equal access to the pussy, and not some bullshit separate but equal crap where we have to do the ones with the hairy armpits.; 7/4/13, 1:24 PM
Meade said...: The Crack Emcee said...
What are you afraid of, Meade? That maybe, in the cold light of day, it might be discovered you and Ann aren't such good people after all?

Nothing. Impossible. We are not, after all, good people.

Do you have any male friends, so you can learn to emulate how to be one?

The only friends I have, male or female, wothy of emulation, are all canine. I have no human friends and I intend to keep it that way.; 7/4/13, 1:24 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: "If you don't want her to have a child, don't have sex with her."

We've discussed this before:

Tell a woman you won't have sex with her and she gets furiously angry before calling you "gay" - and, no matter how she votes, she means it as the ultimate put-down.

Like I said, we've discussed this before. My take is - while you're putting us down for our attitudes - your "sisters" really don't like your kid very much.

You really don't like men very much either, which is why you attack us so much.

That ivory tower really isolates you from the real world, doesn't it?; 7/4/13, 1:25 PM
Nomennovum said...: This is sooo beta.

Ha. You mean that as an insult and try to embarrass me, Ann.

Of course it's "so beta." The betas are the ones getting screwed (figuratively speaking only). The "alphas" don't give a shit about any of this, Ann. They never did and they never will. I am surprised you are being so silly with all your sarcasm.

I was very beta, Ann. I got married and believed all shorts of bullshit. Then I lost millions and a close relationship with my kids. Now I care to point out the bullshit. That's certainly not alpha, but it tells everyone else to fuck off, and that's something at least. I am a little surprised you find it so offensive.; 7/4/13, 1:25 PM
Meade said...: *worthy*; 7/4/13, 1:26 PM
dreams said...: "Creely seems to think that when women are getting their daily lashing from men, they should just cower and take their beating like nice little women. "Don't you dare fight back, (or defend yourself) just for that, I'll show you what for!"

Its not as much fun when it is happening to your sex, but we men hear it all the time.; 7/4/13, 1:26 PM
Ann Althouse said...: This display of neediness whether I like you or not is:

1. beta

2. not sexy

3. not likeable; 7/4/13, 1:27 PM
Nomennovum said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 1:27 PM
Meade said...: "Tell a woman you won't have sex with her and she gets furiously angry before calling you "gay" - and, no matter how she votes, she means it as the ultimate put-down. "

Now THAT is some alpha whining. First-rate.; 7/4/13, 1:28 PM
Nomennovum said...: I think there is some serious drinking going on in the Althouse house this 4th of July.; 7/4/13, 1:30 PM
dreams said...: I am too a man, he whined.; 7/4/13, 1:30 PM
bagoh20 said...: See all this bickering over the last half hour is just a distraction so you girls can avoid admitting (while demonstrating) that many of you are just incredibly cruel, and really not worthy of our junk juice(trademark 2013).

The proof of our superior kindness and compassion is that we give it to you freely anyway. We're givers, while you take it, keep it, control it, and then charge us for it. It's really a scam.; 7/4/13, 1:31 PM
Anonymous said...: It's sad to see men so angry at all women because the one they married fucked 'em over. Or perhaps the wife actually was justified in divorcing them, if their behavior here is any indication.; 7/4/13, 1:32 PM
dreams said...: If you want to win an argument accuse the other person of whining, whatever it takes to win I guess.; 7/4/13, 1:32 PM
Ann Althouse said...: How did the subject of gay people get into this thread? Why does this keep coming up in your minds? What is the line of thinking here? This post had zilch to do with gay people.

Hey, guys fretting about you manhood? Gay people are not doing this to you. You're projecting your own fear of unmanliness onto those gay people over there. That's all the more unmanly.

And to top it off, you attribute the thinking about gay people to ME.

You're doubly distancing yourself from responsibility for your own thoughts.

It's not about me and it's not about gay people and it's certainly not about me thinking about gay people.

It's about you, and you ought to think about why you keep dragging gay people into the discussion.; 7/4/13, 1:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Ann, isn't it uncanny how they always blame their own bad bad behavior in a thread on the commenter they are arguing with and losing, of being drunk?; 7/4/13, 1:35 PM
dreams said...: Anger is an honest emotion and sometimes its appropriate to express it. We all get mad.; 7/4/13, 1:35 PM
kentuckyliz said...: The problem is that the writer knows this about this woman and still refers to her as a friend. Birds of a feather.; 7/4/13, 1:35 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Ann Althouse,

You know what's sexy?

I think, if you were to mash up all of Ann's posts to reach a conclusion, this would be the only topic that would have any real significance to her.; 7/4/13, 1:36 PM
jr565 said...: St. Croix wrote:
If you don't want her to have a child, don't have sex with her.

I can see Ann Althouse scolding a pregnant woman now. "If you don't want to have a child, don't have sex with a man."

And then she says...

"It's pretty simple. If you want to make it more complicated, don't whine about it."

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, that's just the rhetoric for men.

Althouse should read this again. And then again. And then one more time for good measure.

For althouse, sex for men means child birth. For althouse, sex with men means whatever she wants it to mean. It takes two to tango, but only one should be responsible in Althouse's view.

Also, she dismissively calls me who disagree with her betas. Is that code word for fag?; 7/4/13, 1:36 PM
William said...: "Ask no return for love that's given on this deep earth or in broad heaven."......Looking back, the great love of my life made me feel like a schmuck, but if I could play any hand over again that's the one I would play. Cuckold or cad: all the parts have predictable lines, but there's just a few plays where the lines are worth memorizing.; 7/4/13, 1:36 PM
bagoh20 said...: Alphas are the ones who can tell you that you're bitch, watch you hate it, listen to you feeble replies of "beta" and still nail ya whenever they want. Now that's hot! - That's alpha!; 7/4/13, 1:37 PM
wwww said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/4/13, 1:39 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: But you guys wanted to talk about that terrrrrible problem of female autonomy once again.t

My point above is that while autonomy is fine, with power comes responsibility, and there is often a large social cost that society pays to give women the opportunity to have and raise children without a strong father figure securely in the children's lives. For one thing, much, if not most of our prison population was raised without their fathers strongly in their lives. Why shouldn't the women who insist on having and raising kids out of wedlock be the ones who bear this cost? Instead, the rest of society pays for their exercise in autonomy, along with all the social programs designed to help support fatherless families, including welfare, WIC, Medicaid, ObamaPhones, etc. - a non-trivial portion of our budget every year. All so that women can have that autonomy you are arguing for.; 7/4/13, 1:40 PM
Eeyore Rifkin said...: "If you don't want her to have a child, don't have sex with her."

I doubt the professor would apply this principle evenhandedly. It may be sage advice, nonetheless.

When people used to care about relationships as a topic of public discourse, the air was rife with learned counsel on the importance of trust, not merely as an element of a strong, loving relationship, but as its essential pillar. Now it all seems rather stuffy.

Prudie mouthed some words in the direction of validating the importance of trust, words which the professor didn't find credible. Perhaps we all feel some ambivalence about trust. Should we trust our feelings, "our most genuine path to knowledge"? (One suspects Lorde didn't meant knowledge in a biblical sense, but, hey.)

Feelings matter. Even little nuances of feeling in the way we discuss things. Would you rather read the latest story about Bob Dylan's illegitimate child, or the one about his love child? QED.; 7/4/13, 1:41 PM
bagoh20 said...: And alphas don't have to spel right, use good grammar, or ..., hell we don't have to do anything. Now make me a sandwich.; 7/4/13, 1:42 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Ann, isn't it uncanny how they always blame their own bad bad behavior in a thread on the commenter they are arguing with and losing, of being drunk?

Yeah, where would we get THAT IDEA FROM?

I love how the same people play dumb like the rest of us forget,...; 7/4/13, 1:43 PM
Anonymous said...: Bruce Hayden,
Guess what, females can be autonomous without getting freebies from Uncle Sam. They have careers, they work, they earn their own money. If men have insecurity issues because of this, too bad for them, there are more men out there that don't.; 7/4/13, 1:43 PM
Nomennovum said...: Is that [beta] code word for fag?

It's her word for "loser."

Since beta male includes, roughly, 98% of men ... and likely every man who posts comments on Althouse, this is not a great blog traffic or revenue-generating strategy.; 7/4/13, 1:44 PM
bagoh20 said...: " Google both and do a count for the last 20 years."

Were there any comedy routines built on those?; 7/4/13, 1:44 PM