"People in [the southwest and northwest sides] of the city are concerned about their property values," Barrett said. "They should remember when their property values go down that it was Governor Walker who did that to them if he proposes this. I'm still hoping he doesn't propose this."Isn't that the wrong reason for requiring residency? You want to use people — deny them free choice — in order to bolster the real estate market? I can see not wanting the city to hollow out as people escape to the suburbs. You don't want Milwaukee to turn into Detroit, but what about the real people who work for the city? If they want to live too far out in the suburbs, their only option is to give up their jobs?
Note the big effect on who teaches the schoolchildren of Milwaukee. And then one of the reasons you might not want to live in Milwaukee is that you don't think the schools are good enough. A vicious circle there, no?
From the comments at the link:
I am considering moving out of Milwaukee. I own a $200,000 house and my taxes are almost as much as my mortgage. How can you even consider making someone pay almost $7K year for a $200k house and I can't even send my kids to the public schools. Don't even get me started on crime.... clean up the city and you won't have to hold employees hostage!On the other side, also from the comments:
If you draw a city paycheck, the city has every right to require you to contribute to the local tax base by living there. If that's simply too much to bear, there are other places to work. No one is forcing anyone to work for the city of Milwaukee.
Posts
97 comments:
As a matter of principle, people should absolutely not be required to live in the city of their employ.
But, as most of these employees are Democrat public employee union members, faithfully voting Democrat election after election after election, cannibalizing the wealth, safety and future of the places in which they live and work, fuck them.
Let them live, first hand, day to day, without escape, in the misery they create and support.
And public school employees should be forced to send their kids to public schools. Period.
Maybe then we'll finally get the reforms necessary to fix things that Democrats keep destroying.
A residency requirement for public employees provides stability that cannot be obtained by closed bidding.
If you draw a city paycheck, the city has every right to require you to contribute to the local tax base by living there. If that's simply too much to bear, there are other places to work. No one is forcing anyone to work for the city of Milwaukee.
I tend to agree with this. If you don't want to live within city limits, you can always find a different job.
So, which course is more apt to make Milwaukee end up like Detroit?
"If you draw a city paycheck, the city has every right to require you to contribute to the local tax base by living there. If that's simply too much to bear, there are other places to work."
That's what Pullman said too!
I think municipal employees should also be required to shop at government owned stores. Sales tax is an important tax too!
If a private employer tried to require it's employees to live in a particular part of town, I think there would an outcry. I don't see why the city has any more right.
The city is going to be hollowed out by over priced city services. Expanding the supply of potential workers should allow a lower price for those services. That is just simple supply/demand economics.
The city resident policy is not in the city's best interest. It is only in the interest of the politician that signs the fat union contract and then only if those union members are city voters.
Hwere in Ohio, the constitution forbids residency requirements, except for contracted individuals.
Progs hate true liberty. They want their slaves to live in the hellholes Progs create, while the Prog elites live in gated communities.
The fact that enough people don't want to live in MKE even though they draw a check from it is damning.
My sons live there. It can be a charming city, lively, many options for arts and music.
But it's become decrepit, and dangerous. College students are robbed and raped going to class, no matter the time of day.
Despite (because of) being a blue city, it is highly segregated by race, and visitors should read Derbyshire's recommendations before driving around, lest you end up in Very Unsafe Areas Discussed Only In Hushed Tones.
We might retire there, but outside the city, maybe White Folks Bay.
Reminds me of that scene in "Jaws" when Mayor Vaughn wants people to go in the water on the 4th of July.
Interviewer: Amity island has long been known for its clean air, clear water and beautiful white sand beaches. But in recent days, a cloud has appeared on the horizon of this beautiful resort community. A cloud in the shape of a killer shark.
Old Man: Oh, hi Larry.
Mayor Vaughn: Why aren't you in the water?
Old Man: Er, well er, I just put some sun tan lotion on and uh, I'm trying to absorb some of this sun.
Mayor Vaughn: Nobody's going in! Please. Get in the water.
I certainly agree that public school teachers' kids should have to attend public school.
My ex-wife was a public school teacher and a big supporter of public schools. After our divorce 35 years ago, I sent them to private school. She went back to teaching for a year about 15 years later. She said that if she were doing it now, she would home school them. The change after the unions took over was appalling.
My sister and brother-in-law had to live in Chicago because he was a city cop. Now, he is long retired and they have to live with rising crime and high taxes.
If only government worked at any level and didn't employ lifers whoes productivity is not a condition for continued employment. The taxes have to be high to pay the salaries of the people who make the city unlivable.
The only solution that would work would be to privatize most city functions and remove the requirement. Good luck getting that to happen.
Right Maguro, I mean they pay my salary so some of it SHOULD be in company script.
If a private employer tried to require it's employees to live in a particular part of town, I think there would an outcry. I don't see why the city has any more right.
Because the pay that the city employees are getting comes directly from the pockets of the people (taxpayers) who live in the city.
If you want to have people in those city positions who CARE about their jobs and the effects that their jobs have on the rest of the residents you need to have people with "skin in the game".
If you don't live in the city, why should you care if your job is cost ineffective and costs the tax payers more than it should. It doesn't affect you! so who cares. As long as you get a paycheck and benefits that are paid for by the other people.
I don't think they should be required to live in the city. I think the city paper should publish the names of city workers, and whether they live inside/outside the city as a continuing series monitoring the health of the city.
No, they need to live where they poop. Thats the only way things will change for the better in the city. If those who enact the rules don't have skin in the game, they will propose all manner of stupid ideas into law, simply because they won't have to live with the day to day consequences of their failed ideas.
In fact it should be required for all city officials to live in the city. That way, they get the government they deserve and enact.
@DBQ, if you had competent managers (I know, I know), your argument wouldn't work, because the do-nothing people would be let go.
And, yes I have little sympathy for public union members complaining about their conditions of employment. It is supposed to be about service and not lifestyle.
While I am sympathetic to the "live where they poop" aspect of this, I have an issue from a freedom perspective of telling adults where they can and can't live. And I'm also skeptical of the ability of blue-city goobers to learn from their mistakes.
, so is it really accomplishing what it should?
"In fact it should be required for all city officials to live in the city. That way, they get the government they deserve and enact."
But it doesn't work out that way. The public employees make enough that they need never go into the shitty parts of town. They maintain the parts of town they need, and all else can go hang.
None of this would matter if MKE were a great city to live in. City employees wouldn't consider a long commute if the city was a good one.
It's not, so they have to force people to stay. Taxes are too high, and it is unclear where all that money goes. It's being cannibalized like Detroit and St. Louis.
Another horrible blue failure.
Residency requirements merely delay the inevitable. It's not a solution, just duct tape.
MadisonMan said...
"@DBQ, if you had reasonable unions and civil service rules (I know, I know), your argument wouldn't work, because the do-nothing people would be let go."
Fixed it for you...
If the government slugs leave, maybe property values will go up.
Idiots in Milwaukee, starting with the Mayor.
Milwaukee students rank below average on national science test
How many good people refrain from working there because of the leftist idiot policy that demands the government control even their off-duty lives and families.
How unAmerican. This is leftist stupidty on display again:
MadisonMan said...
@DBQ, if you had competent managers (I know, I know), your argument wouldn't work, because the do-nothing people would be let go.
No.
fixed
if you had competent political leaders (I know, I know), that put reasonable civil service hiring, firing and retention policies in place, with or without union support, the managers could, you know, manage and your argument wouldn't work, because the do-nothing people would be let go.
But since you have corrupt unions, and democratic city pols wholely dependent on union endorsements to get elected, you're F'd...
Isn't that the wrong reason for requiring residency? You want to use people — deny them free choice — in order to bolster the real estate market?
As the comments indicate, this isn't about the real estate market, it is about property tax collection.
"Fortress Milwaukee" is not going to work.
The argument that they should "live where they poop" is a false one. People don't work that way, but are quite happy to live in shared misery.
I'd wager that Barrett's more concerned about a group of people who predominantly vote Democrat moving to a place where they can't vote for him.
I spent the first half of my teaching career outside of the town where I live. Deliberately, because the town where I live is small, and had I taught there, I would have had my own children in my class. When they had both graduated, I "came home" to teach. Worst mistake I ever made. It's not easy living next door to helicopter parents, but more importantly, I saw first hand what a rat hole I had made my kids attend. (I agree with the wife/teacher who said she wished she'd homeschooled her kids when she got a firsthand look inside the school.) Since it was made abundantly clear to the teachers who lived in town that becoming politically active in school related politics would get us fired, those of us who did live "where we pooped" were all but useless in advocating for positive change. Now that I've retired, I'm too burnt out and disgusted to care enough.
True, Chip, although MKE has sufficient fake voters to see him through regardless.
Yes, Pogo, but fake voters don't drive salt trucks.
I'd wager that Barrett's more concerned about a group of people who predominantly vote Democrat moving to a place where they can't vote for him.
Smartly done, I wonder if billionaires/PACS could just selectively relocate Democratic voters into gerrymandered red districts to swing some elections. Instead spending all that money on campaign ads, just pay voters off to move. Would be pretty funny to see inner Milwaukee relocating to the burbs!
Hell, just pay people for their vote. That's got to be legal under Citizens United I would think.
Great idea, garage!
When I get my daily marching-orders call from Charles Koch I'll mention this to him.
This is one of the few areas where I disagree with DBQ. Residency requirements deprives cities of many of their "best and brightest." And dedication? The NYC firefighters who lived in NJ and sacrificed their lives @the WTC on 9/11 certainly didn't lack dedication, did they? Living in New Orleans, with housing prices being what they are, one can either get more house for the same dollar across the Parish line, or the same sq footage as a home in Orleans Parish for far less outlay outside Orleans Parish. And lets not forget the crime factor and quality of the schools. All residency requirements for Fire & Police do is drive your more qualified people out of the city and deprive the city proper of their services--a self-defeating act. And lets not mince words. Most heavily black metro areas under black dominated City Halls use the residency requirement as a tool to drive whites out of the city and civil service so that they can be replaced by more un/under-educated and more generally incomptent fellow blacks, i.e., the creation of a defacto "Chocolate City." And look at the unalloyed wonders of civil administration such tactics have produced for the likes of Detroit, New Orleans, etc. Ah, progress!!
I'm sad when I see Milwaukee.
The once strong Northern town a shell of it's former self.
Population used to be in the high 700,000's now barely 600,000. It's on par with Cleaveland but not nearly as bad as Detroit.
Wow, it built a museum! Sorry not good enough.
The gays are not hot either which is the really sad part of it and no creative economy as a result the true job entrepreneurs run to the coasts for the high educated talent.
**"deprive cities"
People who work for Ford should be required to buy Ford. People who work for Northwestern Mutual should be required to place their insurance with them. People who work for Burger King... Etc. Nonsense
If this policy really does prop up property values, then it also reduces the real value of a given salary by raising the cost of housing. So presumably, at least in the long run, MKE's public employees have to be paid more than they'd require if they could live anywhere they wanted. Or, as vigil x. has noted, MKE incurs higher costs of providing public services by losing out on the most qualified potential workers.
Either of these effects ultimately requires higher taxes. So Barrett's preferred policy consists of raising taxes on non-public-employee residents in order to raise the value of their property by forcing public employees to live there.
It's like that Obama perpetual-motion argument in which higher minimum wages increase employment thru the higher spending of minimum-wage employees.
Either Barrett's an idiot, or he just want to keep Dem voters in MKE.
I'm generous of spirit, so I say it's the latter.
As a native born Detroiter, and former resident, I can only say that the recipe to turn other formerly prosperous cities into Detroit is simple:
1) Start with one long run of Democrat party rule. Say....about 15 years should do, but for a total demolition, let it go for 50.
2) Sprinkle in heavy, regular doses of racism in the guise of 'fighting for the people and/or children'.
3) Add a large dose of union presence, especially as the sole membership of the city workforce.
4) Combine with antipathy toward the surrounding suburban areas, and outright antagonism for any assistance from the state.
5) Finally, when the last of those who can leave, do so- scream Racism and/or Republicans!
The remaining 250 people will surely get your vote yet again.
This recipe is currently being tried in Washington DC, Newark, Baltimore, Los Angeles, and other dandy places. If more ambitious, you can try this on a National scale. Oh...wait...
samanthasmom said:
Since it was made abundantly clear to the teachers who lived in town that becoming politically active in school related politics would get us fired, those of us who did live "where we pooped" were all but useless in advocating for positive change.
Amen!
Barrett needs to concentrate on other ways to keep property values from falling but I don't have much sympathy for the public employees. Move and get another job. Life happens like that.
This is one of the few areas where I disagree with DBQ. Residency requirements deprives cities of many of their "best and brightest."
@ Virgil. I don't actually agree with the policy of if you work here you live here. I was stating why some people would consider it.
There IS the feed back loop, however, of having a stake in the game in that if you work somewhere and your OWN taxes are subsidizing or paying your wages or the decisions you make will affect yourself.....you just might be a bit more cognizant the ramifications of your actions.
Self interest is a powerful thing.
On a related note. I am on a Board of Directors for a small governmental utility based Special District. The rules for being on the Board are that you must be a registered voter IN the borders of the District. This severely limits the potential pool of Directors. There are many very well qualified and interested people who live outside the area, including business owners who have an interest in the District. Many of these people would be superior directors.
The rational for limiting the Board to residents of the district, I assume, is to make sure that decisions made will be well considered and the idea that our own self interest would [hopefully!!!] preclude us from making stupid and counterproductive decisions. Things like randomly and egregiously raising rates or assessments because would affect ourselves.
My brother retired from the MPD a couple of years ago, he and his wife built a home in the very far northwest edge of town where many cops still live and firefighters still live. They probably would've moved to Waukesha County or Washington. County if they could've to be perfectly honest. Mostly because of private school tuition. MPS except for a couple of the specialty schools like the German Imersion School lacks safety and scholastics, sadly.
If these schools could all be as good as the German immersion school MPS would make a name for itself in a positive way.
Pogo, why White Fish Bay? Waukesha County is full of lakes and conservatives.
If the Lesbian Hot Dog Stand is city-owned I think the lesbians should be forced to live their. In scanty outfits.
'live THERE' that is.
City-owned Lesbian Hot Dog Stands would be unfair to private-owned Lesbian Hot Dog Stands.
If a Lesbian Hot Dog Stand worker wants to live in the suburbs I think that should be allowed.
Of course, in the city there would probably be subsidized Lesbian Hot Dog Stand worker housing. Hopefully near convenient bus routes.
In the city Lesbian Hot Dog Stands can be located no closer than 300 yards from any Lesbian Donut Shop.
Lesbians have to fight red tape, too. Unless its that 'sexy red tape' fetish thing. Then they can just wriggle.
Inga nailed it. Time to privatize the schools and most city functions. Make bidding open and competitive with performance being a heavily weighted factor. Let parents choose where to send their kids to school like the well off public employees who can afford to escape the crap public schools do now.
There is also the case to be made for the Lesbian Banana and Cucumber Produce Stand.
There has too be healthy alternatives to hot dogs and donuts.
For health reasons Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers would be legally obligated to wear hair nets. Or acrylic blue wigs cut in a bob.
Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers and Lesbian Donut Shop workers tend to be professionally suspicious of each other. Let it be said: Lesbians who live in Glass Houses should not throw the first stone. They can, however, take the first shower.
@Chip S/
Have you ever considered it's not "either or" but rather, "both and?"
When I get my daily marching-orders call from Charles Koch I'll mention this to him.
Fine, but I was thinking of this more as a Democratic scheme. Gerrymander Busting, if you will.
The German Immersion School is part of MPS.
A German Immersion school seems suspiciously like an attempt at Aryan separatism.
What's the ethnic profile of that school?
San Francisco once had a residency requirement for police and firefighters -- something that might be rationally justified in the sense that first responders ought to be reasonably close to the area they're defending. They ditched it a long time ago, which is why most SF police and firefighters live in Novato, or the cheaper bits of the Peninsula, or in the East Bay. SF is no place to live on a budget.
As for public employees who aren't first responders, well, I see the attraction of the "live where you poop" idea, but if there is in fact a law to the effect that it's illegal to teach in the Milwaukee public school system unless you are also willing to live within the Milwaukee city limits, let's just say that that would explain a lot.
If you draw a city paycheck, the city has every right to require you to contribute to the local tax base ...
By itself, that can be (and is in Detroit) accomplished by levying an income tax on anyone & everyone who works in the city, residency be damned. All those who live in Detroit but work outside of it also pay the tax. The tax (3% for residents & 1.5% for non-residents IIRC) is levied on residents as well as non-residents who work in the city. The tax rates can be set as necessary.
As for Milwaukee compared to Detroit...I haven't been there in a while, but from comments here, it sounds like it is catching up to Detroit. Far far more is at work than just whether city employees are residents. Tell me, is Milwaukee also highly segregated? If so, you have the recipe for Detroit ... and it is brought to you by race hustlers inside and out of city government. Good flipping luck, y'all.
Now Detroit was forced to give up its residency requirement for city employees of all types in 1999 by act of the state legislature. Effective this year, 2013, city elections for Common Council will again be by "wards"...7 of them, one rep from each, plus two at large....for the first time since about 1918 IIRC. The scramble is humorous now, as the Council members strive to actually move in to a ward, or more likely fake it.
It may not have anything to do with the residency changes in 1999, but a slender core of the downtown city began rejuvenation about that time and continues today. My daughter has moved down there to a pricey loft, near her office, and when we go to dinner in restaurants near her place, the clientèle is uniformly younger...much younger than me. The same for the people going to concerts and theaters and museums. It at least appears hopeful...and Detroit has seen very little of that for decades.
The German Immersion School is 70% White, while the French Immersion school is 65% Black. Both schools are highly rated. If MPS can do this with the rest of their schools they could become a model for big city schools.
Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers often have a BA in the Arts.
By selling wieners Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers are taking over the Tools of Oppression.
That BA in Arts is helpful in such regard.
Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers in Immersion School.
Followed by very small towels.
One way that Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers thwart the Tools of Oppression is by selling Tofu Dogs.
This is OK if they are wearing High Heels.
Inga, why haven't those dedicated teachers in the other public schools been able to accomplish the same results?
Chip, who knows, they all belong to the SAME union.
So we look for features of the immersion schools that are different from the regular schools.
One easy explanation would be self-selection of more motivated students and parents. Another possibility is that kids can be tossed from the immersion schools if they behave badly. Izzat so?
Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers could join forces with Monkey-Accompanied Musicians.
It is the Organ Grinders Union.
There is an innate sadness about Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers: selling hot dogs and a Promise to the same lonely men day after day.
Day after day: hot dog, bun, condiment. Repeat.
Some days it seems like you cannot hold one more wiener without losing a bit of your Soul.
The Hot Dog water mocks you.
"Can you see your reflection?" it asks.
The constant exposure to steam does give the skin a healthy glow, but is that enough?
Yes Chip, I believe that iz so. So MPS could model the rest of their schools that way, keep a few schools open for the children who cannot abide by the rules. Staff those schools with the hardest hard noses teachers and pay them extra for hazardous duty.
Betamax3000 ... WTF is it with you? Your staccato post droppings are wearing out my scroll wheel.
Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers can often see the Defeat in the faces of school teacher patrons.
They once had Desire, Desire to Teach, to Educate. Now they are standing on a street corner eating a hot dog with a far-away look in their eyes.
I am sorry to hear about your Scroll Wheel, Aridog.
As a southerner I have to laugh at Wisconsin's anxious and principled war against white flight from a Metropolitan area's core city.
Have fun guys.
Of course then there are the places like Winnetka, Scarsdale,Santa Barbara, Aspen, Buckhead etc. where the people who work there can't possibly afford to live there. When I lived in Winnetka, the police chief, two teachers and a postal worker lived on my block. All of them were older, having bought their houses 15-20 years before.
There was no way they could afford their own houses if they were just coming to town. Nobody seemed too upset by that.
There are a lot of lessons in this tale. One of them is that property values are determined by whether people want to live in your town, city or neighborhood.
Mayor Barrett's approach is a bandaid on a gigantic wound. How about better schools, safer neighborhoods and better economic opportunity, mayor?
David,
Of course then there are the places like Winnetka, Scarsdale,Santa Barbara, Aspen, Buckhead etc. where the people who work there can't possibly afford to live there.
Yes, that's a real problem. Essentially all the public school teachers in Silicon Valley, for example, can't afford to live anywhere near where they teach. It's bad enough that IIRC some school districts were constructing subsidized faculty housing. There's this story, from 2005, for example.
Teachers, standing on a street corner eating a hot dog with a far-away look in their eyes: Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers find that they are the lousiest tippers.
Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers could teach Teachers a thing or two about Misunderstanding. Just because you sell hot dogs while dressed in Hot Pants and fishnet does Not make you a stripper.
Look at the Hot Dog Stand: the pole is for holding up the umbrella, not dancing.
Some Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers now sell hot dogs to the very teacher that taught them Junior Year English.
Back then the teacher would look them in the eye and pause every time he said the word "conjugate." It was quite uncomfortable.
And now he wants a hot dog.
Lesbian Hot Dog Stand workers know some people are Bastards.
I thought lesbians would want to own a fish taco stand? Just sayn'
Nice blog by the way there betadude.
LOL Zemo...Fish Taco Stand. LOL
They could have a salmon stand.
Eat Salmon
The Other Pink Meat
Chicago had a residency requirement and a head tax of $5 for those who didn't live in the city, something like that.
Seafood is tricky in a Mobile Food Stand Environment.
Putting Fish on a Stick does not make it a Fishstick.
Put a Hot Dog on a stick and you're halfway to Corndog.
The idea of buying a Fish Taco from the Lesbian Fish Taco Stand could make many potential customers feel self-conscious and uncomfortable. Like buying Watermelon from a man with no arms.
Men gain a renewed sense of their own Desirability when they receive edible phallic symbols from Lesbians. It is a Tribute.
A Fish Taco, on the other hand, implies "we do not need you. We will never need you."
Lesbian Donut Shop workers find that they sell much less of the statistical average of jelly and cream-filled donouts.
Uncomfortable patrons. Increased napkins usage.
Barrett can't make the city nice enough for people for them to *want* to live there so he has to force them to do so.
It's really that simple.
I note Detroit having a residency requirement for public employees didn't stop it from turning into Detroit in the first place. Does Barrett really want to claim Detroit just suddenly went downhill starting in 2000?
There are so many hungry, young, fresh college grads just yearning for Milwaukee City jobs (including - of course - city schools).
You suburban folks who anesthetize yourselves within the shelter of your very white and "safe" suburbs - be very worried.
I say you all should be. You drive for an hour or more to your Milwaukee or Madison city jobs and then escape by 5:00 PM every day.
Sustainability - folks. Be local. Live where you work. It matters a lot. I have always believed municipalities (like Madison) should require city residency for employees. There are lots of folks who want to work out there who live within our city limits. Let's get rid of the "flight" cowards and hire real city folks.
Your presence as citizens in the community where you work is missed - we need you "white flight" liberals who left Madison because of our awful schools while you pollute our city driving in to your state jobs. BTW - your 'white flight' has helped make Madison and Milwaukee schools suffer. Thanks a lot.
Hypocrite, NIMBY jerks. Keep making rules and enforcing rules for all of us "city folk" while you congest our roads, enjoy government salaries and benefits and "could care less about the rathole city" you work in.
And antecdotal evidence I have gathered in my own life from you all is that you deplore the cities you work for.
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